From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 01:35:18 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:35:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 compliant and that is that. Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely inaccessible when it gets to market. There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is accessible. But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You want your books for free, so does everyone else. From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 01:42:24 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops anyone from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you are not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out > your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is > that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the > solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic > documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > compliant and that is that. > > Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people > claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > > We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content > accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of > the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can > lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely > inaccessible when it gets to market. > > There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > accessible. > > But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And > don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled > that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them > to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away > free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there > is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if > there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You > want your books for free, so does everyone else. > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 01:50:54 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:50:54 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: Good evening James, As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. Thanks, Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops anyone > from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you are > not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> compliant and that is that. >> >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> accessible. >> >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:10:27 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:10:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: I see you do not seem to understand that they are complying with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act, so they are building the ramps, it is not their fault that you cannot read it because the product is made to the code to the law. What you perceive as inaccessibility is the failure of the law to make content actually accessible. James On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > anyone from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all > you are not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> compliant and that is that. >> >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> accessible. >> >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> > > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:18:14 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:18:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and you never charged anyone for your work. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my > intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which > all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or > chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > > More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me > why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having > intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > > Thanks, > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > anyone > > from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > are > > not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > out > >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is > >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the > >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic > >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >> compliant and that is that. > >> > >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > people > >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >> > >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content > >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all > of > >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > can > >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely > >> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >> > >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >> accessible. > >> > >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And > >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > disabled > >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > them > >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > away > >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > there > >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > this if > >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? > You > >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 02:30:47 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:30:47 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Good evening James, I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and use them to your benefit. Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever you'd like with the product of my labour. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > you never charged anyone for your work. > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >> >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >> >> Thanks, >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >> anyone >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >> are >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >> out >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>> compliant and that is that. >>>> >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >> people >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>> >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all >> of >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >> can >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>> >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>> accessible. >>>> >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >> disabled >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >> them >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >> away >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >> there >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >> this if >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? >> You >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 03:03:09 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 23:03:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Good evening James, I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: > So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? > Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, > distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they > get paid for their effort? > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >> use them to your benefit. >> >> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >> you'd like with the product of my labour. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >> my >>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >> (which >>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >> or >>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>> >>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >> me >>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >> having >>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Thanks, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>> anyone >>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>> are >>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>> out >>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >> is >>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >> the >>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >> electronic >>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>> people >>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >> content >>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >> all >>>> of >>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>> can >>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >> completely >>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >> And >>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>> disabled >>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>> them >>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>> away >>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>> there >>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>> this if >>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >> problem? >>>> You >>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 03:19:37 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:19:37 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Sorry if I sound too harsh. But you are technically out of line here. It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. > > Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? > > I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. > > I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. > > Thanks, > > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >> get paid for their effort? >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening James, >>> >>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>> use them to your benefit. >>> >>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good evening James, >>>>> >>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>> my >>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>> (which >>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>> or >>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>> >>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>> me >>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>> having >>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>> anyone >>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>> are >>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>> out >>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>> is >>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>> the >>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>> electronic >>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>> people >>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>> content >>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>> all >>>>> of >>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>> can >>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>> completely >>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>> And >>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>> disabled >>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>> them >>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>> away >>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>> there >>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>> this if >>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>> problem? >>>>> You >>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Sep 2 03:38:35 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 22:38:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, I don't know to what you are responding in the beginning nor do I know what you are responding to here for certain. At least most of us are not seeing accessibility as a denial of the right for an author to earn something. Since we are a small market, I believe we also have the right to manipulate the market such that we can have an impact. An author has the right to distribute inaccessible electronic books to colleges, but we have a right to make it difficult. Sometimes rights collide. From what you have written before, in a perfect world, all authors would use the procedure you say you have developed and everything would be accessible, and presumably you might earn some income in the process. I don't even have a problem with that, but I won't assume your system is a perfect one just because you tell us that it is. I assume that some of what you are writing here is to set the stage for that solution. You seem to be forgetting, though, that public libraries exist. While I don't feel that an author owes me a free copy of a work, I also think that BookShare, for example, functions as a sort of library. In another perfect world, should downloaded books be timed so copies can't be kept permanently? They probably should, but this also increases the complexities of systems and adds to the cost. I would also point out to you that at least for now, an author cannot truly prevent someone from lending a hard-copy book to someone else or even trading hardcopy books. They can't prevent a sighted person from going to a library and repeatedly referring to a book or checking it out multiple times. Authors will gain more control with electronic books, but there have always been loopholes in the system. I don't think it is fair to paint accessibility as the only source of loopholes even though I admit that there are some. Until recently, we really have not been in a position to have purchased books do much for us so we've been dependent upon the library lending model. This is likely to be changing and already has to some degree, but it will take us time to get used to it. I will also tell you that when I was in college, I was required to buy three copies of every textbook to have it converted into braille or recorded on tape. Those authors did pretty well by me. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500, James Pepper wrote: >So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? > Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >get paid for their effort? >On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> Good evening James, >> >> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >> use them to your benefit. >> >> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >> you'd like with the product of my labour. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >> > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >> > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >> > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >> > you never charged anyone for your work. >> > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> > >> >> Good evening James, >> >> >> >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >> >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >> my >> >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >> (which >> >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >> or >> >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >> >> >> >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >> me >> >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >> having >> >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >> >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Thanks, >> >> Everett Zufelt >> >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >> >> >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >> >> anyone >> >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >> >> are >> >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >> >> out >> >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >> is >> >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >> the >> >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >> electronic >> >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> >>>> compliant and that is that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >> >> people >> >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >>>> >> >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >> content >> >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >> all >> >> of >> >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >> >> can >> >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >> completely >> >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >>>> >> >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> >>>> accessible. >> >>>> >> >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >> And >> >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >> >> disabled >> >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >> >> them >> >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >> >> away >> >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >> >> there >> >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >> >> this if >> >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >> problem? >> >> You >> >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> blindlaw mailing list >> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 04:09:45 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:09:45 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net><1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC><3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1><7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca><60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Hi George, How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > Sorry if I sound too harsh. > But you are technically out of line here. > It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize > there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. > Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy > capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in > general. > > > Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. > > Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending > the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > Jorge Paez > > > --- > President And CEO: > Paez Production Networks > > > > > > Please note: > this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. > Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication > is directed to. > If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the > subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this > message and/or any accompanying media. > > On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so >> I will ignore that question. >> >> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they >> are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know >> if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if >> intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition >> of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to >> purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone >> will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the >> abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep >> intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid >> here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why >> does open source software exist? >> >> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private >> individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not >> corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content >> creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment >> model. >> >> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a >> society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't >>> they >>> get paid for their effort? >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I >>>> am ok >>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine >>>> that >>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source >>>> code, and >>>> use them to your benefit. >>>> >>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I >>>> would >>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do >>>> whatever >>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free >>>>> and >>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real >>>>>> property, >>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all >>>>>> of >>>> my >>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>> (which >>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real >>>>>> property >>>> or >>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>> >>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain >>>>>> to >>>> me >>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>> having >>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested >>>>>> in >>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what >>>>>>> stops >>>>>> anyone >>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all >>>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can >>>>>>>> lay >>>>>> out >>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem >>>>>>>> here >>>> is >>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair >>>>>>>> ramp >>>> the >>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>> electronic >>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section >>>>>>>> 508 >>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation >>>>>>>> where >>>>>> people >>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined >>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section >>>>>>>> 508 >>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>> content >>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot >>>>>>>> anticipate >>>> all >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a >>>>>>>> publisher >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>> completely >>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>> And >>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys >>>>>>>> want >>>>>> them >>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, >>>>>>>> give >>>>>> away >>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan >>>>>>>> because >>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone >>>>>>>> fix >>>>>> this if >>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>> problem? >>>>>> You >>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 04:30:09 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:30:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net><1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC><3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1><7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca><60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: The situations that I find interesting are when corporations purchase rights to inventions and works so that they can delay its use by society, as it would compete with the products they currently sell, or to prevent competitors from making use of the invention. I don't see this as promoting science or the arts. . Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-02, at 12:09 AM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi George, > How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. > > To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. > > Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. > > I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? > > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > > >> Sorry if I sound too harsh. >> But you are technically out of line here. >> It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. >> Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. >> >> >> Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. >> >> Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >> >> On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening James, >>> >>> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. >>> >>> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? >>> >>> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. >>> >>> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >>>> get paid for their effort? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good evening James, >>>>> >>>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>>>> use them to your benefit. >>>>> >>>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>>>> my >>>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>>> (which >>>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>>>> or >>>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>>>> me >>>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>>> having >>>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>>>> is >>>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>>> electronic >>>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>>> content >>>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>>>> all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>>> completely >>>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>>> And >>>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>>>> this if >>>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>>> problem? >>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 14:24:28 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:24:28 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the > problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear > things > like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you > actually > do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this free > software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look at > what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all done, > don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. > > If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are > half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all of > the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each > one > of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are > editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto > one > format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to > do > it for free. > > West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's > property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 15:02:44 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:02:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> Message-ID: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> It might have been a good point if anyone had actually suggested that books should be free for persons with disabilities. Of course, no one said that, so it's really not a very good point at all. The question was whether publishers/content providers had an obligation to make their publicly distributed content accessible. The answer is yes. For some reason that I can't understand this was interpreted as meaning that content must be made available for free. Deeper challenges to the notion of copyright set aside for now, if content is accessible, then it should and would be paid for. Or, alternatively, as Steve suggested, it would be borrowed from the library, just as it is by sighted citizens. This bit about demanding content that is free is a complete red herring. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining > an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything > isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > > >> What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the >> problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear >> things >> like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you >> actually >> do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this >> free >> software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look >> at >> what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all >> done, >> don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. >> >> If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are >> half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all >> of >> the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each >> one >> of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are >> editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto >> one >> format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to >> do >> it for free. >> >> West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's >> property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! >> >> James >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 15:15:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:15:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee amendment. From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 15:25:11 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:25:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: No, that's true. But it is fare competition all the same. Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 2, 2010, at 12:30 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > The situations that I find interesting are when corporations purchase rights to inventions and works so that they can delay its use by society, as it would compete with the products they currently sell, or to prevent competitors from making use of the invention. I don't see this as promoting science or the arts. . > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-02, at 12:09 AM, Dennis Clark wrote: > >> Hi George, >> How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. >> >> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. >> >> Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. >> >> I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? >> >> Dennis >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> >> >>> Sorry if I sound too harsh. >>> But you are technically out of line here. >>> It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. >>> Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. >>> >>> >>> Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. >>> >>> Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jorge Paez >>> >>> >>> --- >>> President And CEO: >>> Paez Production Networks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note: >>> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >>> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >>> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >>> >>> On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. >>>> >>>> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? >>>> >>>> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. >>>> >>>> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>>>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>>>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >>>>> get paid for their effort? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>>>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>>>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>>>>> use them to your benefit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>>>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>>>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>>>>> my >>>>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>>>> (which >>>>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>>>>> or >>>>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>>>>> me >>>>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>>>> having >>>>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>>>> electronic >>>>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>>>>> all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>>>> And >>>>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>>>>> this if >>>>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>>>> problem? >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 15:37:26 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:37:26 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: <3FB0C8D9-F05E-4221-BB23-765CE3D909E1@mac.com> Not technically speaking. It is not forced to be free for the blind under any circumstance. If its in a specialized format, or from agencies such as bookshare.org, yes. But if its in regular e-book format, then the author has no pressure whatsoever to make it free for anyone. On Sep 2, 2010, at 11:15 AM, James Pepper wrote: > Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee > amendment. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 16:20:44 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:20:44 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing Message-ID: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> Listmates: I have followed this discussion with interests. I finally had an opportunity to weigh in with some info on West regarding elecgtronic copies of their publications although slightly off the original query. I have a contact at West, available for anyone interested, who I use when obtaining materials from West. They always provide an electronic copy for me along with the hard copy even if they have to contact someone to have it made up. No charge. But most worthy of mentioning, I received easily over four hundred dollars of new publications for FREE only in electronic format because I asked if they could get them for me. They said no problem and never charged me. I didn't have the publications in hard copy as I called to order them and inquire about electronic copies. Got the electronic copies for no charge. Eventually the gravy train ended but I still get any publication directly from West along with electronic copies for no additional charge. Sometimes it may be best to be willing to fork over the extra cash for a new publication because you never know, you MAY get your order in electronic format for free and really save some cash! I agree the publisher is entitled to charge for electronic materials if the books being sought were not purchased from West. Common sense. Best~ James W. Weisberg, Esq. Law Office of J. William Weisberg Palm Springs, California V: 760-992-5114 F: 888-841-1924 E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com Admitted in Wisconsin Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system. This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer. From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Sep 2 16:18:24 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:18:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: I believe part of the notion that we want publishers to give away work came from the perspective that we are forcing them to pay to have materials converted into accessible forms. In some cases, particularly in areas of math and science, making books truly accessible is not easy nor is it all that well- defined. It can mean that the tools they use to print a book won't help them at all to make a book accessible. For some books to be accessible, it is necessary to have descriptions of some drawings as RFBD and others insert into textbooks. While I readily admit there is some validity to this concern, I would also submit that the entire issue of accessibility to printed materials is very new in the scheme of things, and we are still learning. There needs to be some give and take as we figure out the best way to follow. The printing press was the only game in town for the production of materials for more than six hundred years. There was no way to automate accessibility for us in that process. Electronic processing of materials has only been around for perhaps forty years, and only in the last twenty have blind persons truly had access to computers. In many cases, accessibility falls out almost automatically from the process of publishing books but it some cases it doesn't. In some cases, having publishers take accessibility into account when they are planning rather than after the fact significantly reduces the effort for any particular book. I believe that what we are trying to do is to increase the awareness level of how a little planning can significantly provide us access to books. At the same time, we are also trying to figure out where the role of the publisher may have to be augmented by entities like RFBD. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:02:44 -0600, Marc Workman wrote: >It might have been a good point if anyone had actually suggested that books >should be free for persons with disabilities. Of course, no one said that, >so it's really not a very good point at all. >The question was whether publishers/content providers had an obligation to >make their publicly distributed content accessible. The answer is yes. For >some reason that I can't understand this was interpreted as meaning that >content must be made available for free. >Deeper challenges to the notion of copyright set aside for now, if content >is accessible, then it should and would be paid for. Or, alternatively, as >Steve suggested, it would be borrowed from the library, just as it is by >sighted citizens. >This bit about demanding content that is free is a complete red herring. >Regards, >Marc >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:24 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining >> an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything >> isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> >> >>> What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the >>> problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear >>> things >>> like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you >>> actually >>> do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this >>> free >>> software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look >>> at >>> what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all >>> done, >>> don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. >>> >>> If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are >>> half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all >>> of >>> the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each >>> one >>> of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are >>> editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto >>> one >>> format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to >>> do >>> it for free. >>> >>> West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's >>> property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! >>> >>> James >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From lists at zufelt.ca Fri Sep 3 02:17:41 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:17:41 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition Message-ID: Good evening, The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? Thanks in advance, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 3 02:39:33 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:39:33 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Certainly not. Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening, > > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > > Thanks in advance, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From lists at zufelt.ca Fri Sep 3 02:53:59 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:53:59 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> Good evening, Apple also bundles a built-in browser (Safari) and didn't get into trouble the same way that Microsoft did for Internet Explorer. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-02, at 10:39 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Certainly not. > Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > > > > On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening, >> >> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > Thanks. > > > > Jorge Paez > > > --- > President And CEO: > Paez Production Networks > > > > > > Please note: > this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. > Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. > If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 02:59:15 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:59:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: James, you are mis-stating the Chafee Amendment. It says that a nonprofit, can provide access to copyrighted works to qualifying blind and print-handicapped persons without having first to get permission from the copyright holder. It doesn't say "free". So, a qualified nonprofit could at least recoup its costs. Dave At 10:15 AM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee >amendment. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 03:05:05 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:05:05 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a similar argument, it seems to me, as that which the U.S. Department of Justice used 15 years ago against Microsoft. They didn't want MS to bundle Internet Explorer in the OS saying it was unfair competition. They might require MS to do something to level the playing field, but I doubt they could stop them all together. Dave At 09:17 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Good evening, > >The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they >were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > >http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > >Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > >Thanks in advance, >Everett Zufelt >http://zufelt.ca David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 03:06:06 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for the Apple at the time. Dave At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Certainly not. >Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > > > >On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > Good evening, > > > > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering > if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they > were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > > > > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > > > > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Everett Zufelt > > http://zufelt.ca > > > > Follow me on Twitter > > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > > > View my LinkedIn Profile > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >Thanks. > > > >Jorge Paez > > >--- >President And CEO: >Paez Production Networks > > > > > >Please note: >this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this >communication is directed to. >If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in >the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all >copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 3 03:06:49 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 23:06:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <82121102-E7DE-4934-91E9-1AA24D04729D@mac.com> Good point, but if memory serves me right, Microsoft got in trouble with the EU which Apple has not been spared from either. Jorge Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:53 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening, > > Apple also bundles a built-in browser (Safari) and didn't get into trouble the same way that Microsoft did for Internet Explorer. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-02, at 10:39 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Certainly not. >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening, >>> >>> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>> >>> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>> >>> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 18:41:44 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:41:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> References: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> Message-ID: Cool! On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 11:20 AM, James Weisberg wrote: > Listmates: > > > > I have followed this discussion with interests. I finally had an > opportunity to weigh in with some info on West regarding elecgtronic copies > of their publications although slightly off the original query. I have a > contact at West, available for anyone interested, who I use when obtaining > materials from West. They always provide an electronic copy for me along > with the hard copy even if they have to contact someone to have it made up. > No charge. But most worthy of mentioning, I received easily over four > hundred dollars of new publications for FREE only in electronic format > because I asked if they could get them for me. They said no problem and > never charged me. I didn't have the publications in hard copy as I called > to order them and inquire about electronic copies. Got the electronic > copies for no charge. Eventually the gravy train ended but I still get any > publication directly from West along with electronic copies for no > additional charge. Sometimes it may be best to be willing to fork over the > extra cash for a new publication because you never know, you MAY get your > order in electronic format for free and really save some cash! > > > > I agree the publisher is entitled to charge for electronic materials if the > books being sought were not purchased from West. Common sense. > > > > Best~ > > > > James W. Weisberg, Esq. > > Law Office of J. William Weisberg > > Palm Springs, California > > V: 760-992-5114 > > F: 888-841-1924 > > E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com > > Admitted in Wisconsin > > Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy > > This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. > Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), > you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information > contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, > please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your > system. > > This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client > relationship > nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg > expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in > accordance with this disclaimer. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 18:32:04 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:32:04 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for > the Apple at the time. > > Dave > > > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: > >> Certainly not. >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >> > Good evening, >> > >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> > >> > >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> > >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> > >> > Thanks in advance, >> > Everett Zufelt >> > http://zufelt.ca >> > >> > Follow me on Twitter >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> > >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication >> is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the >> subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this >> message and/or any accompanying media. >> > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 20:02:23 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:02:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind paralegals. In-Reply-To: <1E42BCF5105F47ABBF9C9FC7440042ED@OwnerPC> References: <1E42BCF5105F47ABBF9C9FC7440042ED@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <32CC2EA65E9D4F5BB40225B5302FE141@spike> Hi tracy, I am a blind free lance paralegal in California. I primarily work with solo practitioners and small firms. The job market for paralegals is very tight now due to the economy and the downsizing of many larger law firms. feel free to contact me off list as needed with any specific questions. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 email: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Fields" To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:04 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Blind paralegals. > Hi all, > > I am new to the list. I am looking to change careers and go into the > paralegal field and was hoping to get info from any blind paralegals that > may be on this list as to their success in finding work in this field and > the difficulties they have run up against, if there are any. > > Any advice or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. > > Tracey > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Sep 4 02:34:17 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 20:34:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: Message-ID: <6421E302318E4AB7B14FE492229F11A9@valtd> Hello Mr. Zufelt: If Microsoft can build a screen reader that compares favourably to what Apple has, I shall be the most happy fellow on earth! If Microsoft's screen reader can read almost any program I throw at it, example, Point of Sale software et al, I will not need to HIRE A SCRIPTER and pay a hefty sum just so I can staill somewhat marginally gainfully employed. Microsoft's entry to the screen reader world WILL NOT put screen reader developers out of business. There will be areas which the Microsoft screen reader MAY NOT ADEQUATELY address, and this is where these developers will shine. Microsoft's entry into this market SHOULD SPAR AND ENCOURAGE COMPETITION, and perhaps FORCE CURRENT DEVELOPERS to pay more attention to SQUASHING BUGS as opposed to introducing useless newer and better crap and charging me an arm and a toe to upgrade. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From dandrews at visi.com Sat Sep 4 03:01:23 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 22:01:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little indirectly. Dave At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? > >On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: > > > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for > > the Apple at the time. > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: > > > >> Certainly not. > >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> > >> > Good evening, > >> > > >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if > >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to > >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > >> > > >> > > >> > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > >> > > >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > >> > > >> > Thanks in advance, > >> > Everett Zufelt > >> > http://zufelt.ca > >> > > >> > Follow me on Twitter > >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > > >> > View my LinkedIn Profile > >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > blindlaw mailing list > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> Jorge Paez > >> > >> > >> --- > >> President And CEO: > >> Paez Production Networks > >> > >> > >> > >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 4 03:25:07 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 23:25:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: <8D7B0579-A283-489B-BFB8-24C866F3B594@zufelt.ca> I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user on the Windows operating system continues to improve. Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: > They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little indirectly. > > Dave > > At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >> >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: >> >> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for >> > the Apple at the time. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > >> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >> > >> >> Certainly not. >> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >> >> >> > Good evening, >> >> > >> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to >> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> > >> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> > >> >> > Thanks in advance, >> >> > Everett Zufelt >> >> > http://zufelt.ca >> >> > >> >> > Follow me on Twitter >> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> > >> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> >> President And CEO: >> >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From k7uij at panix.com Sat Sep 4 16:50:09 2010 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> <8D7B0579-A283-489B-BFB8-24C866F3B594@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <5E35A67A17404027AC5AB9BCA682E61D@owner1e06aeb63> I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen the way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind Europeans in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still feel that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over there has rubbed off on them? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition >I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading >products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user >on the Windows operating system continues to improve. > > > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: > >> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little >> indirectly. >> >> Dave >> >> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>> wrote: >>> >>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>> > for >>> > the Apple at the time. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > >>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>> > >>> >> Certainly not. >>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > Good evening, >>> >> > >>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were >>> >> to >>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>> >> > >>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>> >> > >>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >> > >>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> > for >>> >> blindlaw: >>> >> > >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >> >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Jorge Paez >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --- >>> >> President And CEO: >>> >> Paez Production Networks >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Sep 3 11:54:46 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 06:54:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: Well, you could be right, but Apple hasn't had anybody for years who wants to write a screen reader. I think we really have to understand the differences between the Windows and Apple environments. I don't think you can assume that there might not be a move by some. Best regards, Steve On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:39:33 -0400, Jorge Paez wrote: >Certainly not. >Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> Good evening, >> >> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >Thanks. >Jorge Paez >--- >President And CEO: >Paez Production Networks >Please note: >this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Sep 4 18:04:54 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:04:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <5E35A67A17404027AC5AB9BCA682E61D@owner1e06aeb63> Message-ID: Mike, >From what I read on other lists, I think the feeling outside of the United States is pretty much that Microsoft should provide a screen reader with Windows. I would even say that it even ties into anticoporate feelings in that it is seen as them dodging their responsibilities when they don't provide one. Apple is also putting more pressure on through its inclusion of Voice-over so we're seeing the sentiment here in the United States as well. I think that it tends to be people who are close to the industry who don't feel this is necessarily good for us, including myself, but we are under more and more pressure to figure out how we can help people buy screen readers, especially if we see purse strings tighten up as may be the case. When a screen reader cost half as much as the computer, as was the case a decade ago, it was not easy to swallow but still acceptable. When the screen reader costs more than twice as much as a computer, as is the case with Netbooks and cheaper laptops and desktop machines as is the case now, it is much harder to accept. Even the price of Microsoft Office has come down some over the years. I don't have a good answer for this and that is a problem. Personally, the fact that I work every day on my job with products that are competing with Microsoft such as Lotus Notes, I am probably more sensitive to this than many. I am not one who believes in conspiracies, I just don't think Microsoft would likely prioritize making their competition work better with their screen reader. I also see too many cases where one screen reader works better than another in specific cases and that competition makes them all better. The Windows environment is enough different than that of Apple that there just isn't as tight of controls on applications, and I am just not convinced that the same model that Apple is using would work under Windows, at least not at this point. Windows is evolving in such a way that it might be more the case in five years or so, so I am very aware that my position might change. I think we're dealing with what is theoretically better for us versus what is truly better for us. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: >I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft >HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen the >way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind Europeans >in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it >was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still feel >that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over there >has rubbed off on them? >Mike >----- Original Message ----- >From: "E.J. Zufelt" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition >>I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >>care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading >>products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >>competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user >>on the Windows operating system continues to improve. >> >> >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: >> >>> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little >>> indirectly. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>>> > for >>>> > the Apple at the time. >>>> > >>>> > Dave >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Certainly not. >>>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> > Good evening, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >>>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were >>>> >> to >>>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >> > >>>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> blindlaw: >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Jorge Paez >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> --- >>>> >> President And CEO: >>>> >> Paez Production Networks >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From womankind at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 03:38:49 2010 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:38:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft Outlook 2003 and organizing by catagories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, is anyone able to use the Microsoft Outlook 2003 function for organizing contacts by catagoriesand then searching by those catagories? Thanks. Stephanie Stephanie Ortoleva, Esq. stephanieortoleva at gmail.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 20:17:45 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Message-ID: <84563.46751.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: “please enter the two words shown above.” The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: “Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 7 20:41:54 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:41:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <84563.46751.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: “please enter the two words shown above.” The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: “Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From joramsey at cox.net Tue Sep 7 21:04:36 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:04:36 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if any advocacy group has considered a cause of action because of these captias. I fail to see how they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website accessibility. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the two words shown above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: "Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r r.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From taiablas at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 13:32:53 2010 From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:32:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Nonvisual Techniques for LSAT Message-ID: Hello all. I am looking to speak with individuals who took the LSAT nonvisually. I am retaking it to get a higher score but need to figure out alternative techniques for the logic games portion of the test. When I received tutoring from Kaplan, they suggested drawing pictures which did not work well for me. I have no usable vision to aid on the test. I am also interested in hearing from individuals who received tutoring before taking the LSAT regarding their experiences. Please contact me via email at taiablas at gmail.com. Thanks. Tai From tom at tomladis.com Thu Sep 9 15:58:47 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:58:47 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: Message-ID: <75BF70F7412D4427B7D75753255AED76@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Hello All, I agree that competition is good, and also agree that the competitive software is becoming less and less affordable. I was lucky to have a good case for DHS to get my computer set up with JAWS and OpenBook so that I can be as independent as possible, but it was not cheap. >From what I understand, the twenty first century communication act had some money set aside, and subsidizing companies or expanding funding for DHS would be one way to make these things more available and still allow Microsoft to have a built in solution. Tom Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition > Mike, > >>From what I read on other lists, I think the feeling outside of the United >>States is pretty much that Microsoft should > provide a screen reader with Windows. I would even say that it even ties > into anticoporate feelings in that it is seen as > them dodging their responsibilities when they don't provide one. Apple is > also putting more pressure on through its > inclusion of Voice-over so we're seeing the sentiment here in the United > States as well. I think that it tends to be people > who are close to the industry who don't feel this is necessarily good for > us, including myself, but we are under more and > more pressure to figure out how we can help people buy screen readers, > especially if we see purse strings tighten up as > may be the case. When a screen reader cost half as much as the computer, > as was the case a decade ago, it was not > easy to swallow but still acceptable. When the screen reader costs more > than twice as much as a computer, as is the > case with Netbooks and cheaper laptops and desktop machines as is the case > now, it is much harder to accept. Even > the price of Microsoft Office has come down some over the years. I don't > have a good answer for this and that is a > problem. Personally, the fact that I work every day on my job with > products that are competing with Microsoft such as > Lotus Notes, I am probably more sensitive to this than many. I am not one > who believes in conspiracies, I just don't > think Microsoft would likely prioritize making their competition work > better with their screen reader. I also see too many > cases where one screen reader works better than another in specific cases > and that competition makes them all better. > The Windows environment is enough different than that of Apple that there > just isn't as tight of controls on applications, > and I am just not convinced that the same model that Apple is using would > work under Windows, at least not at this > point. Windows is evolving in such a way that it might be more the case > in five years or so, so I am very aware that my > position might change. I think we're dealing with what is theoretically > better for us versus what is truly better for us. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: > >>I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft >>HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen >>the >>way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind >>Europeans >>in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it >>was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still >>feel >>that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over >>there >>has rubbed off on them? > >>Mike > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "E.J. Zufelt" >>To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM >>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and >>anti-competition > > >>>I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >>>care about competition because they truly want to see better >>>screen-reading >>>products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >>>competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader >>>user >>>on the Windows operating system continues to improve. >>> >>> >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: >>> >>>> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a >>>> little >>>> indirectly. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>>>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>>>> > for >>>>> > the Apple at the time. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Certainly not. >>>>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > Good evening, >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering >>>>> >> > if >>>>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they >>>>> >> were >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>>>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>>>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>>>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> >> > for >>>>> >> blindlaw: >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Jorge Paez >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> --- >>>>> >> President And CEO: >>>>> >> Paez Production Networks >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >>>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Fri Sep 10 09:42:11 2010 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:42:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> References: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <5062DDE2D94D47A0B7652574186C5051@Scorpio13> Do you mean the concept of captchas in general, or visual captchas? I think advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas because they are, in fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real threat. The question is how they should be designed. This is problematic because I can't think of a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The best ones are probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably discriminate against certain people with developmental disabilities. I guess the best we can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few people as possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a security mechanism that makes them unnecessary. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if any advocacy group has considered a cause of action because of these captias. I fail to see how they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website accessibility. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the two words shown above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: "Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r r.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 16:49:07 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <5062DDE2D94D47A0B7652574186C5051@Scorpio13> Message-ID: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fair point. --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > From: Chris Danielsen > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > Do you mean the concept of captchas > in general, or visual captchas? I think > advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > because they are, in > fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > threat. The question > is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > I can't think of > a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > best ones are > probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > discriminate > against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > guess the best we > can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > people as > possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > security > mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > any advocacy group > has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > I fail to see how > they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > accessibility. > Cordially, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627    > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be > confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > communication in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any > computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > of this > communication or the information it contains may result in > criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > secure.  If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > email to > communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us > immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must > also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through > circumstances beyond our > control.  Thank you.  > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello everyone, > >     So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > accessed by the deaf-blind? > > Peter Donahue > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Good afternoon list members. > I would like to up-date you on Linkedin.  The log-in > page has a different > Captcha that works and is accessible.  Once you enter > in your log-in > information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > two words shown > above."  The audio link comes up with a clear voice > that says:  "Please > enter the following words.  Do not worry if you have > trouble, just enter > your best Guess.  You will here a number IE 5, then a > word such as Saturday, > > then a number like 8 and then a word of less.  If you > do not enter in the > numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > access your > account. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 19:27:26 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Chris and everyone, I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Fair point. --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > From: Chris Danielsen > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > Do you mean the concept of captchas > in general, or visual captchas? I think > advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > because they are, in > fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > threat. The question > is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > I can't think of > a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > best ones are > probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > discriminate > against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > guess the best we > can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > people as > possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > security > mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > any advocacy group > has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > I fail to see how > they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > accessibility. > Cordially, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be > confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > communication in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any > computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > of this > communication or the information it contains may result in > criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us > immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must > also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through > circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello everyone, > > So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > accessed by the deaf-blind? > > Peter Donahue > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Good afternoon list members. > I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in > page has a different > Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter > in your log-in > information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > two words shown > above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice > that says: "Please > enter the following words. Do not worry if you have > trouble, just enter > your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a > word such as Saturday, > > then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you > do not enter in the > numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > access your > account. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 10 19:51:46 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:51:46 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Absolutely not. CAPTCHAs aren't used to stop abuse of a service, its to stop robots from attacking a site. And I guess to a degree Chris is right, somehow or other someone's always gonna be discriminated against in these captchas, and one thing about business--specially on big sites, is that they please the greatest majority only. They do this for purely economic reasons, but the trouble too is that you can't please everyone, specially when it comes to security, purely for security's sake, in the sense that someone's always gonna complain. Its like TSA checkpoints, lots of people complain, and things happen, but its there for security. Like it or not, its gonna stay there until someone comes up with something better. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Chris and everyone, > > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which > these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to > track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would > be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report > Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for > this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Fair point. > > > --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Sep 10 20:42:17 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:42:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Peter, It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the network and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could be scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest as an alternative. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >Hello Chris and everyone, > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would >be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report >Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >Peter Donahue >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William ODonnell" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >Fair point. >--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 21:03:52 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:03:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com><004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002501cb512b$ac837110$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, And if you know the IP addresses or zones on which those robots operate they could be blocked by the site/server administrator hence the need to report such robot attacks. I'd like to know how it is that companies like AMWAY Global which does a tremendous amount of business on the Internet can protect their infrastructure without resorting to the use of CAPTCHAS making doing business difficult for its customers and IBOS. I've commended them on numerous occasions for their refraning from the use of CAPTCHAS to control robot attacks. Perhaps they can teach the rest of the Internet community a thing or two about site/server security without inconveniencing users of these resources. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Absolutely not. CAPTCHAs aren't used to stop abuse of a service, its to stop robots from attacking a site. And I guess to a degree Chris is right, somehow or other someone's always gonna be discriminated against in these captchas, and one thing about business--specially on big sites, is that they please the greatest majority only. They do this for purely economic reasons, but the trouble too is that you can't please everyone, specially when it comes to security, purely for security's sake, in the sense that someone's always gonna complain. Its like TSA checkpoints, lots of people complain, and things happen, but its there for security. Like it or not, its gonna stay there until someone comes up with something better. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Chris and everyone, > > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from > which > these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to > track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one > would > be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those > "Report > Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need > for > this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Fair point. > > > --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 21:15:08 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:15:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: Message-ID: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Steve and everyone, I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when I ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps but doesn't shut anyone out. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter, It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the network and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could be scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest as an alternative. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >Hello Chris and everyone, > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >would >be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >"Report >Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >Peter Donahue >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William ODonnell" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >Fair point. >--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 10 21:25:36 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:25:36 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Peter: very good point. However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. Also, you have to understand different companies create different structures, so it'll depend on that. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well > for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when I > ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps > but doesn't shut anyone out. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter, > > It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting > visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > network > and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because > there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their > origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that > CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited > thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just > are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may > discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is > developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password > is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could > be > scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't > like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest > as an > alternative. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >> would >> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >> "Report >> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> Peter Donahue > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Fair point. > > >> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >>> From: Chris Danielsen >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>> because they are, in >>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>> threat. The question >>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>> I can't think of >>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>> best ones are >>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>> discriminate >>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>> guess the best we >>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>> people as >>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>> security >>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>> any advocacy group >>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>> I fail to see how >>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>> accessibility. >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be >>> confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>> communication in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>> associated printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>> computer. Please be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>> of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>> criminal and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>> the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>> secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>> email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>> immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>> also be aware that email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>> circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Good afternoon list members. >>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>> page has a different >>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>> in your log-in >>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>> two words shown >>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>> that says: "Please >>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>> trouble, just enter >>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>> word such as Saturday, >>> >>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>> do not enter in the >>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>> access your >>> account. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Sep 10 21:34:00 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:34:00 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Message-ID: <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 22:02:35 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:02:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Message-ID: <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello George and everyone, I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in the email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter: very good point. However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. Also, you have to understand different companies create different structures, so it'll depend on that. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well > for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when > I > ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps > but doesn't shut anyone out. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter, > > It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from > getting > visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > network > and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because > there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide > their > origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think > that > CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused > limited > thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just > are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may > discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is > developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a > password > is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could > be > scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't > like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to > suggest > as an > alternative. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >> which >> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >> would >> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >> "Report >> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >> for >> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> Peter Donahue > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Fair point. > > >> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >>> From: Chris Danielsen >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>> because they are, in >>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>> threat. The question >>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>> I can't think of >>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>> best ones are >>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>> discriminate >>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>> guess the best we >>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>> people as >>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>> security >>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>> any advocacy group >>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>> I fail to see how >>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>> accessibility. >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be >>> confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>> communication in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>> associated printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>> computer. Please be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>> of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>> criminal and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>> the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>> secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>> email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>> immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>> also be aware that email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>> circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Good afternoon list members. >>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>> page has a different >>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>> in your log-in >>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>> two words shown >>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>> that says: "Please >>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>> trouble, just enter >>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>> word such as Saturday, >>> >>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>> do not enter in the >>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>> access your >>> account. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 22:11:51 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:11:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> Message-ID: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Steve and everyone, It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to solve captchas independently. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From tlfields2 at charter.net Fri Sep 10 22:20:53 2010 From: tlfields2 at charter.net (Tracey Fields) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:20:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> Hi all, I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory toward anyone that way. Tracey Fields -------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donahue" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello George and everyone, > > I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required > for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in > the > email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out > there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 22:41:53 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:41:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS In-Reply-To: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: It's a matter of priorities then, isn't it? Shouldn't we be making it a priority to enhance web accessibility today rather than making it a bigger priority to design vehicles for the blind in a distant tomorrow? Joe Orozco "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:12 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS Hello Steve and everyone, It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to solve captchas independently. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorams ey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanie lsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/willia m.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve. jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgea paez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40insightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 22:46:31 2010 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:46:31 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS In-Reply-To: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Oh, a blind-driver-interface will be a miracle. Hopefully, it will soon be available for us. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind > person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical > know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we > should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images > available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% > behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that > we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the > problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to > solve captchas independently. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > It's very complicated. > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > > Peter: > > very good point. > > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > > > Jorge > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > > > >> Hello Steve and everyone, > >> > >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works > well > >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed > when > >> I > >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra > >> steps > >> but doesn't shut anyone out. > >> > >> Peter Donahue > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Steve Jacobson" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> > >> > >> Peter, > >> > >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from > >> getting > >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > >> network > >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. > >> Because > >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide > >> their > >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think > >> that > >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused > >> limited > >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers > >> just > >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs > may > >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme > >> is > >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a > >> password > >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this > >> could > >> be > >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we > don't > >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to > >> suggest > >> as an > >> alternative. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> > >>> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> > >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from > >>> which > >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers > >>> to > >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one > >>> would > >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those > >>> "Report > >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need > >>> for > >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> > >>> Peter Donahue > >> > >> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "William ODonnell" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> > >> > >>> Fair point. > >> > >> > >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> > >>>> From: Chris Danielsen > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas > >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think > >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > >>>> because they are, in > >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > >>>> threat. The question > >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > >>>> I can't think of > >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > >>>> best ones are > >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > >>>> discriminate > >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > >>>> guess the best we > >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > >>>> people as > >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > >>>> security > >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >>>> On > >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > >>>> any advocacy group > >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > >>>> I fail to see how > >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > >>>> accessibility. > >>>> Cordially, > >>>> John > >>>> > >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > >>>> > >>>> P.O. Box 6063 > >>>> > >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 > >>>> > >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 > >>>> > >>>> This communication contains information that may be > >>>> confidential and/or > >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > >>>> individual or > >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > >>>> communication in > >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > >>>> associated printed > >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any > >>>> computer. Please be > >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > >>>> of this > >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in > >>>> criminal and/or > >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > >>>> the Internet, > >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > >>>> secure. If you are > >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > >>>> email to > >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us > >>>> immediately at (352) > >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must > >>>> also be aware that email > >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through > >>>> circumstances beyond our > >>>> control. Thank you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >>>> On > >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hello everyone, > >>>> > >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? > >>>> > >>>> Peter Donahue > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "William ODonnell" > >>>> To: > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Good afternoon list members. > >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in > >>>> page has a different > >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter > >>>> in your log-in > >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > >>>> two words shown > >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice > >>>> that says: "Please > >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have > >>>> trouble, just enter > >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a > >>>> word such as Saturday, > >>>> > >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you > >>>> do not enter in the > >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > >>>> access your > >>>> account. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > >>>> r.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol > . > >>>> com > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 > 03:08:00 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 > 03:08:00 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 01:16:07 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:16:07 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Fields" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hi all, I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory toward anyone that way. Tracey Fields -------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donahue" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello George and everyone, > > I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required > for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in > the > email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out > there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 01:46:17 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:46:17 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Peter: Aren't there such things as hearing aids? Etc. etc. etc. There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! At least, you're making it look that way. So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 11 01:52:11 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:52:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: Good evening, I am wondering if someone has a suggestion of a CAPTCHA that cannot be tricked by a robot, but that is accessible to * all * persons without assistance. If you come up with the concept I will write the code and release it under GPL 3 (open source license). I make this offer fully realizing that there is * no * way to create a verification system that cannot be tricked by robots that does not require human perception as part of the solution. Of course, as technology improves software will become better at perceiving like humans. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-10, at 9:46 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Peter: > Aren't there such things as hearing aids? > Etc. etc. etc. > There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. > Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! > At least, you're making it look that way. > > So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. > > > Jorge > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tracey Fields" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There >> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech >> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given >> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get >> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible >> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >> toward anyone that way. >> >> Tracey Fields >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Peter Donahue" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >>> Hello George and everyone, >>> >>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >>> the >>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter: >>> very good point. >>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >>>> I >>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>> steps >>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>> getting >>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>> network >>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>> Because >>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>> their >>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>>> that >>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>> limited >>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>> just >>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>>> is >>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>> password >>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>> could >>>> be >>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>> suggest >>>> as an >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>> which >>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>>> to >>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>>> would >>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>> "Report >>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>>> for >>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fair point. >>>> >>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>> >>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>> best ones are >>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>> discriminate >>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>> people as >>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>> security >>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>> >>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>> >>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>> >>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>> individual or >>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>> communication in >>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>> associated printed >>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>> of this >>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>> email to >>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>> page has a different >>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>> two words shown >>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>> >>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>> access your >>>>>> account. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>> r.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 02:01:35 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:01:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <000701cb5155$4366ed40$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello George and everyone, Yes. I have a pear and they don't help. Earlier this year I underwent an extensive hearing evaluation including a CT scan to determine whether or not I would be a candidate for a surgical procedure known as a Stapedectomy. It was hoped that the surgery would restore my hearing in the right ear. After reviewing the results of the tests it was determined that due to the nature of my hearing loss having the procedure would be too risky. We tried a number of assistive listening devices but at the end of the day I found that none of them met my needs. But this misses the point. If we can develop a car interface to allow a blind person to drive independently we should be able to find a way to permit blind and deaf-blind individuals to deal with captchas audibly and tactually. I'm aware that the ranch boss is observing this thread and believe this herd needs to be driven to its proper pasture. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter: Aren't there such things as hearing aids? Etc. etc. etc. There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! At least, you're making it look that way. So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. > There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the > speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha > audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>> well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>> when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>> may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>> don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From dandrews at visi.com Sat Sep 11 02:02:08 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:02:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List Message-ID: A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. David Andrews, List Owner David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 02:07:39 2010 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:07:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Pete, you don't have to listen and retype the numbers when you use webvisum. all you do is wait a while then paste the result and keep on going. Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. > There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the > speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha > audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>> well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>> when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>> may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>> don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 02:08:32 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:08:32 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <00b301cb5156$3cc6f420$6601a8c0@server> George, Your statement is so outrageous that it is obscene. Perhaps you can purchase some glasses and then you can leave the blindness oriented lists since your problems will have been solved. Good luck Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > Aren't there such things as hearing aids? > Etc. etc. etc. > There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. > Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! > At least, you're making it look that way. > > So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself > clear. > > > Jorge > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tracey Fields" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. >> There >> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the >> speech >> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have >> given >> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never >> get >> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha >> audible >> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >> toward anyone that way. >> >> Tracey Fields >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Peter Donahue" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >>> Hello George and everyone, >>> >>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >>> the >>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter: >>> very good point. >>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>>> well >>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>>> when >>>> I >>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>> steps >>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>> getting >>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>> network >>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>> Because >>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>> their >>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>>> that >>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>> limited >>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>> just >>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>>> may >>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>>> is >>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>> password >>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>> could >>>> be >>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>>> don't >>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>> suggest >>>> as an >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>> which >>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>>> to >>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>>> would >>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>> "Report >>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the >>>>> need >>>>> for >>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fair point. >>>> >>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>> >>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>> best ones are >>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>> discriminate >>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>> people as >>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>> security >>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>> >>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>> >>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>> >>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>> individual or >>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>> communication in >>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>> associated printed >>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>> of this >>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>> email to >>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>> page has a different >>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>> two words shown >>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>> >>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>> access your >>>>>> account. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>> r.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From tom at tomladis.com Sat Sep 11 02:18:13 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <4EFB0E22A4424AD096D7EC5290DC0BE4@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> E J, I have been giving this some thought since my last detailed conversation on the subject. I have to admit that it is a very difficult subject and think that it would require having the test phrase or word, the player, and other related controls built into one control. Something like a Macromedia Flash control, but Macromedia is not my area of expertise and I will continue exploring the subject. For the hearing impaired, a braille output device might work to draw or write, depending on whether or not the user selects braille output or dot matrix like graphics. That would require additional hardware, but I am definitely not an expert in access for the hearing impaired. Thanks, Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good evening, > > I am wondering if someone has a suggestion of a CAPTCHA that cannot be > tricked by a robot, but that is accessible to * all * persons without > assistance. If you come up with the concept I will write the code and > release it under GPL 3 (open source license). > > I make this offer fully realizing that there is * no * way to create a > verification system that cannot be tricked by robots that does not require > human perception as part of the solution. Of course, as technology > improves software will become better at perceiving like humans. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-10, at 9:46 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Peter: >> Aren't there such things as hearing aids? >> Etc. etc. etc. >> There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. >> Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! >> At least, you're making it look that way. >> >> So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make >> yourself clear. >> >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >>> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >>> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >>> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tracey Fields" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. >>> There >>> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the >>> speech >>> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >>> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >>> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >>> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >>> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have >>> given >>> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never >>> get >>> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha >>> audible >>> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >>> toward anyone that way. >>> >>> Tracey Fields >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Peter Donahue" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>>> Hello George and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you >>>> in >>>> the >>>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are >>>> out >>>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter: >>>> very good point. >>>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>>>> well >>>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>>>> when >>>>> I >>>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>>> steps >>>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Peter, >>>>> >>>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>>> getting >>>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>>> network >>>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>>> Because >>>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>>> their >>>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also >>>>> think >>>>> that >>>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>>> limited >>>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>>> just >>>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>>>> may >>>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective >>>>> scheme >>>>> is >>>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>>> password >>>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>>> could >>>>> be >>>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>>>> don't >>>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>>> suggest >>>>> as an >>>>> alternative. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>>> which >>>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their >>>>>> customers >>>>>> to >>>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No >>>>>> one >>>>>> would >>>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>>> "Report >>>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the >>>>>> need >>>>>> for >>>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Fair point. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>>> best ones are >>>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>>> discriminate >>>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>>> people as >>>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>>> security >>>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>>> individual or >>>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>>> communication in >>>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>>> associated printed >>>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>>> of this >>>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>>> email to >>>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>>> page has a different >>>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>>> two words shown >>>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>>> access your >>>>>>> account. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>>> r.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 02:17:55 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 22:17:55 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21EEC491-D89E-41D5-BCD3-73DE38A1A895@mac.com> Thanks David. On Sep 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, David Andrews wrote: > A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. > > David Andrews, List Owner > > > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Sep 11 20:51:27 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:51:27 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Hello Mr. Zufelt: Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 21:03:07 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:03:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Message-ID: Mr. Olusegun: Please give me any info you have on this security measure. I'm trying to implament something accessible on my site, and I can only find the recaptcha. Thanks. Jorge On Sep 11, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. wrote: > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 21:08:17 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:08:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Message-ID: <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello Mr. Zufelt: Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 21:14:49 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:14:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Peter: You can't sue them. Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. Jorge On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge > to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a > good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to > action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet > infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring > it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this > off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins > used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the > Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated > and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ > THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I > DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED > audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but > those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the > time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 11 22:42:02 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:42:02 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Peter: > You can't sue them. > Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >> >> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >> used in the United States. >> >> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >> DID NOT have to use any audio. >> >> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 12 00:40:59 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:59 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <001301cb5213$2bf1bc30$6601a8c0@server> Hello Peter, Actually I have been considering such a suit, but I am currently swamped. Such a suit would have the best hope of success in California. Are you by chance located in California? Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." ; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good afternoon everyone, > > It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge > to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps > a > good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to > action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects > Internet > infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is > bring > it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this > off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins > used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the > Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is > generated > and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ > THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and > I > DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED > audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but > those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of > the > time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:36:14 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 01:36:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable >accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue >burden on the respondent in a human rights action. > > So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA > available, I would argue that they should make both available as a > reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. > However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet > users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in > my opinion, constitute an undue burden. > > HTH, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Peter: >> You can't sue them. >> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint >> of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such >> particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it >> wouldn't be legally possible. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon everyone, >>> >>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal >>> challenge >>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. >>> Perhaps a >>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects >>> Internet >>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is >>> bring >>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>> >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>> >>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the >>> coins >>> used in the United States. >>> >>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is >>> generated >>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to >>> READ >>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, >>> and I >>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>> >>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the >>> GARBLED >>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of >>> the >>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Olusegun >>> Denver, Colorado >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 07:48:56 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 03:48:56 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Good evening Mark, I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification possible. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. > > Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? > > I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. > > We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >> >> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >> >> HTH, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Peter: >>> You can't sue them. >>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>> >>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>> >>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >>>> used in the United States. >>>> >>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>> >>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Olusegun >>>> Denver, Colorado >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 08:18:17 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 02:18:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Hello Everett, Your exact words were However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Undo hardship does not equal impossible. It may be impossible if we are thinking in terms of a single solution, but a multi-pronged approach is certainly possible, though it may be, and I'm not saying it is, cost prohibitive for some. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good evening Mark, > > I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am > suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an > undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification > possible. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > >> The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be >> implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every >> human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering >> the information. >> >> Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio >> option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is >> necessary without constituting an undo hardship? >> >> I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the >> larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable >> accommodation. >> >> We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't >> out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable >>> accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue >>> burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >>> >>> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA >>> available, I would argue that they should make both available as a >>> reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. >>> However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * >>> Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, >>> it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>> Peter: >>>> You can't sue them. >>>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the >>>> standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for >>>> such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but >>>> it wouldn't be legally possible. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>> >>>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal >>>>> challenge >>>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. >>>>> Perhaps a >>>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects >>>>> Internet >>>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is >>>>> bring >>>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates >>>>> LTD, Inc." >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>>> >>>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the >>>>> coins >>>>> used in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is >>>>> generated >>>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to >>>>> READ >>>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, >>>>> and I >>>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>>> >>>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the >>>>> GARBLED >>>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; >>>>> but >>>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent >>>>> of the >>>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Olusegun >>>>> Denver, Colorado >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 08:26:44 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 04:26:44 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Good evening, I suppose I was talking about a technology solution, not requiring human resources. Thanks for noticing this and correcting me :) Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 4:18 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > Hello Everett, > > Your exact words were > > However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. > > Undo hardship does not equal impossible. It may be impossible if we are thinking in terms of a single solution, but a multi-pronged approach is certainly possible, though it may be, and I'm not saying it is, cost prohibitive for some. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Good evening Mark, >> >> I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification possible. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: >> >>> The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. >>> >>> Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? >>> >>> I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. >>> >>> We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >>>> >>>> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>>> Peter: >>>>> You can't sue them. >>>>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >>>>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >>>>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >>>>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >>>>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>>>> >>>>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >>>>>> used in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >>>>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >>>>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >>>>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>>>> >>>>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >>>>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>>>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >>>>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> Olusegun >>>>>> Denver, Colorado >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From tom at tomladis.com Sun Sep 12 15:16:46 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:16:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List References: Message-ID: Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? Tom Ladis ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List >A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the >discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the >Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick >to the law and blindness. > > David Andrews, List Owner > > > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 20:19:53 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:19:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> I'm not a member of NFB and I'm unfamiliar with practices and procedure. When NFB becomes involved in such actions does it first determine if members are supportive, and how does it so do? Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 11:16 AM, Tom Ladis wrote: > Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. > > We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. > > > > Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. > > Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? > > > Tom Ladis > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List > > >> A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. >> >> David Andrews, List Owner >> >> >> >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Sep 12 20:54:27 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:54:27 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> References: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <1FC02694-441D-469D-BF18-C14B74C69991@mac.com> Basically, a resolution must be made regarding CAPTCHAs. Then, it goes to the resolution board at general convention, and they do a recommending vote. Then its presented to the general session, and stated weather "board reccommends pass". And it goes to a full NFB-membership up or down vote. If aprooved, that becomes policy. Then the NFB can do as it sees fit within that policy. Jorge On Sep 12, 2010, at 4:19 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > I'm not a member of NFB and I'm unfamiliar with practices and procedure. When NFB becomes involved in such actions does it first determine if members are supportive, and how does it so do? > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-12, at 11:16 AM, Tom Ladis wrote: > >> Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. >> >> We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. >> >> >> >> Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. >> >> Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? >> >> >> Tom Ladis >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List >> >> >>> A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. >>> >>> David Andrews, List Owner >>> >>> >>> >>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 21:18:43 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] update on Linkedin: Message-ID: <700379.38406.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those loging in to linked in and dealing with the audio captchas, remember to spell out the actual numbers rather than entering in the absolute values. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Sep 13 17:57:40 2010 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:57:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] sad news Message-ID: I have received word that one of our long time members, Ron Williamitis, has passed away. Apparently, he had a stroke or heart attack yesterday. Please keep his wife, Debbie, and his family in your thoughts and prayers. I will pass on more details as I have them. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 13 18:46:32 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:46:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Washington State PTA government relations position Message-ID: WSPTA GOVERNMENT RELATIONS COORDINATOR POSITION HAS BEEN POSTED TO THE WEBSITE Please pass the word on to those who might be interested. http://www.wastatepta.org/about_us/jobs.html From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Sep 14 18:43:25 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:43:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] K&L Gates -- West Coast Lateral Openings - Ref#38883681 Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Black Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:44 AM To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle Job Postings Subject: [mamas_jobs] FW: K&L Gates -- West Coast Lateral Openings - Ref#38883681 Rachel Black posted: K&L Gates LLP currently has several lateral associate openings, located along the west coast. Palo Alto Patent Associate The Palo Alto office seeks a patent attorney or patent agent with 3-6 years patent prosecution experience to join its Intellectual Property practice. Applicant must be admitted to practice in California and before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Applicant should have a strong scientific background, advanced degree preferred as is familiarity with technologies associated with cleantech clients (e.g. solar energy, wind power, energy storage, alternative fuels, water purification). Preferred technical degrees include engineering, physics, chemistry, and materials science. We require outstanding credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills, and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Ability to develop client-focused solutions in an environment of rapid change is desirable. The Palo Alto office offers candidates the opportunity to practice as part of a large international law firm with the informality and collegiality of a smaller office. San Francisco Patent Litigation Associate The San Francisco office seeks an associate with 1-2 years patent litigation experience to join its Intellectual Property Litigation practice. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in California. A science or engineering degree, USPTO admission and Chinese language skills are preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Patent Litigation Associate The San Francisco office seeks an associate with 4-6 years patent litigation experience to join its Intellectual Property Litigation practice. The successful candidate must demonstrate the capability to conduct advanced level discovery and motion practice independently in patent litigation matters. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in California. A science or engineering degree, USPTO admission and Chinese language skills are preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Seattle Appellate Litigation Associate The Seattle office seeks an associate with 4-5 years experience to join its Appellate, Constitutional and Governmental Litigation practice. Applicants with prior deposition, discovery, and motion practice experience are sought to assume responsibility in an active and diverse federal and state court litigation practice. Appellate practice and federal clerkship experience preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent writing and analytical skills as well as outstanding oral communication skills, and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Ability to develop client-focused solutions in an environment of rapid change is desirable. Applicants must be licensed in Washington. Spokane Commercial Litigation Associate The Spokane office seeks an associate with 3-4 years experience to join its Commercial Disputes practice. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in Washington. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. The Spokane office offers candidates the opportunity to practice as part of a large international law firm with the informality and collegiality of a smaller office. APPLICATION PROCESS * Qualified candidates should apply online at: https://lawjobs.klgates.com/(S(audqj4rw2ifu1a55c0hzzp45))/default.aspx?j ob=ATT * Please contact Dana Mills with questions (dana.mills at klgates.com) Dana Mills Senior Legal Recruiting Coordinator K&L Gates LLP 925 4th Avenue, Suite 2900 Seattle, WA 98104 Direct: 206.370.5744 E-mail: dana.mills at klgates.com Website: www.klgates.com Add your comments online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/38883681?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= ________________________________________ You received this email because you (noel.nightingale at ed.gov) are a member of the BigTent group MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle. Visit this group on the Web: http://www.bigtent.com/group/mamas?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Unsubscribe or leave this group: https://www.bigtent.com/unsubscribe/11798303?key=RTH1WKRAxb4ofr8Ast9530lUyScFYXROCRZEGfVSC7M%3D&md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Terms of Use: https://www.bigtent.com/terms?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Privacy Policy: https://www.bigtent.com/privacy?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Need help? https://www.bigtent.com/help?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 13:33:15 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:33:15 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. Message-ID: <054801cb54da$8d6ee590$400110ac@GPD945> Hello there. I asked a question earlyer about guilty parties and what makes someone guilty or not guilty with an example and so far I haven't had a single response. I'm hoping that my email is just going to my junk email and I will have a response but I've noticed this with previous posts, no one comments well people can ask questions about accessible cellphones and the entire list sends out comments. Just wondering is all. Have a great day. Blaine From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 15 14:14:18 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:14:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. References: <054801cb54da$8d6ee590$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <011301cb54e0$49a775b0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Blaine, I didn't see the post you mentioned so please send it again. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:33 AM Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. > Hello there. > > I asked a question earlyer about guilty parties and what makes someone > guilty or not guilty with an example and so far I haven't had a single > response. I'm hoping that my email is just going to my junk email and I > will > have a response but I've noticed this with previous posts, no one comments > well people can ask questions about accessible cellphones and the entire > list sends out comments. Just wondering is all. Have a great day. > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 14:15:10 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:15:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Message-ID: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 14:20:27 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:20:27 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From lists at zufelt.ca Wed Sep 15 14:32:47 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> Good afternoon, Note: I am not a lawyer. In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, that it may constitute a defence to assault. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that > one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 14:35:02 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <3A40E43C75364235A2DE3CA0AC33EE8E@Rufus> Right...--Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:20 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 15 16:37:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:24 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:12 AM To: 'nawl at nawl.org'; 'ncai at ncai.org'; 'nedy at wyjlaw.com'; 'newmedia at ja.org'; 'Neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'Nancy W Patton'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'PALSD at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. 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ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-13/14 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 14, 2010. Date posted: 09-01-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 19:56:33 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:56:33 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> and what does inevitable mean? I went to dictionary.com and it said that there was nothing with that found. Thanks. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Good afternoon, Note: I am not a lawyer. In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, that it may constitute a defence to assault. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that > one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From lists at zufelt.ca Wed Sep 15 20:15:14 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:15:14 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: Good evening, Common definitions of inevitable http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ainevitable&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Of course, you would really need to know how courts treat the concept, not what a dictionary definition of the word might be. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 3:56 PM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > and what does inevitable mean? I went to dictionary.com and it said that > there was nothing with that found. Thanks. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:32 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Good afternoon, > > Note: I am not a lawyer. > > In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault > (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action > provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not > inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. > > I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant > became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, > that it may constitute a defence to assault. > > HTH, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > >> by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that >> one. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I >> know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer >> question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on >> your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last >> sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there >> is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of >> books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US >> Legal >> system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote >> in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a >> little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each >> other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As >> you're >> doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder >> and >> says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now >> there >> are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask >> you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing >> around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead >> they >> called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a >> very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, >> so >> I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a >> police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was >> wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any >> more >> information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can >> read >> up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work >> hard >> and play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Sep 15 21:40:32 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:40:32 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] intellectual law: looking for a lawyer Message-ID: <08855406-5C74-437D-9E3C-FB3CBAE07270@mac.com> Hello. I am looking for a lawyer in the field of intellectual property who is familiar with New York City and state law. I have some questions but they involve confidential material which I can't discuss on the list due to security and confidentiality reasons. Any lawyer on this list, please contact me off list. Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Thu Sep 16 13:47:25 2010 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:47:25 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] {Disarmed} FW: Disability.gov Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights Update: U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Publishes Final Rules on Nondiscrimination in Public Accommodations, Commercial Facilities and State & Local Government Services Message-ID: <45909D82C38DBE408DA69213A6A4C7779BBBEB08CC@PL-EMSMB4.ees.hhs.gov> ________________________________ From: Disability.gov [mailto:disability.gov at service.govdelivery.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:35 AM To: Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) Subject: Disability.gov Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights Update: U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Publishes Final Rules on Nondiscrimination in Public Accommodations, Commercial Facilities and State & Local Government Services DOJ has issued final rules that revise (1) its Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) title II regulation covering nondiscrimination on the basis of disability in state and local government services; and (2) the regulation that implements title III of the ADA relating to nondiscrimination on the basis of disability by public accommodations and in commercial facilities. DOJ has issued these final rules to have accessibility standards that are consistent with the minimum guidelines and requirements issued by the Access Board. Both rules take effect March 15, 2011. For more information read the factsheets that describe the major changes in the rules revising title II and title III. For additional information about the updated design standards read Adoption of the 2010 Standards for Accessible Design. You are subscribed to Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights for Disability.gov. For more information visit this link: http://www.disability.gov/civil_rights/laws_&_regulations/americans_with_disabilities_act size=2 width="100%" align=center> Update your subscriptions, modify your password or e-mail address, or stop subscriptions at any time on your Subscriber Preferences Page. You will need to use your e-mail address to log in. This service is provided to you at no charge by Disability.gov. If you have questions or problems with the subscription service, please contact support at govdelivery.com. Thank you for your interest in Disability.gov. [http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/sm-share-en.gif] GovDelivery, Inc. sending on behalf of Disability.gov * U.S. Department of Labor, Office of Disability Employment Policy * 200 Constitution Avenue, NW * Washington DC 20210 * 1-800-439-1420 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 14:34:22 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:34:22 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. There are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from many states and the Federal system. chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Sep 20 16:11:00 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:11:00 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the general side as a "Laymen?" Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. There are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from many states and the Federal system. chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 16:57:56 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:57:56 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot that there is a section for law students. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you consider > me > joining the federal side of this website or just the general side as a > "Laymen?" > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. > There > are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with > various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals > section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from > many states and the Federal system. > chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I >> know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer >> question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on >> your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last >> sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended >> areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >> there >> is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles >> of >> books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US >> Legal >> system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I >> wrote >> in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being >> a >> little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each >> other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As >> you're >> doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder >> and >> says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now >> there >> are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >> ask >> you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing >> around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead >> they >> called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is >> a >> very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, >> so >> I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a >> police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was >> wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any >> more >> information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can >> read >> up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work >> hard >> and play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Sep 20 18:02:59 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:02:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> Message-ID: <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> Is there a cost required to sign up for this or is it free? If there is a cost how much am I looking for either annually or Monthly? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: September-20-10 10:58 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot that there is a section for law students. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you > consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the > general side as a "Laymen?" > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. > There > are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals > with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal > Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and > much case law from many states and the Federal system. > chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this >> list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's >> a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might >> have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you >> ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had >> a lot of open ended areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >> there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, >> or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different >> areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about >> them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a >> bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by >> joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a >> playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police >> officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay >> you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are >> a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >> ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop >> playing around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar >> instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you >> consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot >> in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are >> if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You >> dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, >> would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to >> explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more >> that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and >> play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Sep 20 19:19:26 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:19:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom Message-ID: Dear All: Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to hear the screen reader you have on your computer? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Shannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 19:58:06 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:58:06 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945><003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945><00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> Message-ID: Its free to sign up and use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Is there a cost required to sign up for this or is it free? If there is a > cost how much am I looking for either annually or Monthly? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: September-20-10 10:58 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals > part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot > that > there is a section for law students. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you >> consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the >> general side as a "Laymen?" >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >> if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. >> There >> are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals >> with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal >> Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and >> much case law from many states and the Federal system. >> chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >>> Hello there. >>> >>> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this >>> list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's >>> a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might >>> have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you >>> ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had >>> a lot of open ended areas. >>> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >>> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >>> there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, >>> or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different >>> areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about >>> them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a >>> bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by >>> joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a >>> playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police >>> officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay >>> you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are >>> a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >>> ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop >>> playing around? >>> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar >>> instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you >>> consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot >>> in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are >>> if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You >>> dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, >>> would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to >>> explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more >>> that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and >>> play harder. >>> >>> Blaine >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >>> sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche >> r%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s >> bcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Mon Sep 20 19:59:29 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:59:29 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: Message-ID: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past 5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I find them to be pretty useful. I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be secure connections. This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop screen. Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that what you have in your ear does "flash". No, that does not make you a flasher. OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all you need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never once been able to get a laptop to do that. I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get it installed properly again. Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: rumpole at roadrunner.com Hope that helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Dear All: > > > > Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to > hear the screen reader you have on your computer? > > > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 06:35:00 From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net Mon Sep 20 21:19:34 2010 From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:19:34 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access In-Reply-To: <1396EC6B323A463B922D4F129B95066D@valtd> References: <0044432BF5A34A00ABDFBBBBDEAEAA0E@14bd0130080a469> <1396EC6B323A463B922D4F129B95066D@valtd> Message-ID: All, This is such a belated response- but here it is- Verizon now offers a speech accessible cell phone, the "Haven" that uses Talks speech software. This is not a PDA, it is a cell phone, thus there is no additional charge for internet, e-mail etc. FINALLY!! Keep having fun! Cathryn (&Abby) -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access Hi Cathryn: MobileSpeak, the competition for cell phone screen reader, will also work on the HTC Ozone if you choose to stay with Verizon. Aside from these, there are several mostly Nokia phones that Talks can run on. Here are a few: N85, N86, 6120 Classic, E65, E66, E61I, N95, N96, ETC. I hear that the new Talks5 soon to be released will even work on Nokia Touch Screen phones. Please note that Nokia phones use GSM technology; if you choose a Nokia phone, you will be stuck with either AT&T or T-Mobile for the most part. It is my understanding that the HTC Ozone supports both GSM and CDMA platforms; with this phone, you can still keep Verizon if that is your preference. In the event that you need to use the KNFB Reader, this product DOES NOT currently work on any phones running Windows Mobile operating systems. It works primarily on Nokia phones such as the N86, N82, and 6120 Classic to mention a few. To learn more about different phones that you can use with a screen reader, please consider subscribing to the Blind Phones List using the address below: blindphones-subscribe at mosenexplosion.com Hope the foregoing has been helpful. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%4 0verizon.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10 06:32:00 From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 22:38:19 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:38:19 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> Hello Ross, Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you have liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past >5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >find them to be pretty useful. > I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. > About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start > using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But > they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be > secure connections. > This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry > about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick > search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure > nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop > screen. > Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that > does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that > what you have in your ear does "flash". > No, that does not make you a flasher. > OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not > constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It > all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. > One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all you > need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will > recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never > once been able to get a laptop to do that. > I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have > undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time > it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get > it installed properly again. > Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. > IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: > rumpole at roadrunner.com > Hope that helps. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >> Dear All: >> >> >> >> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to >> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >> >> >> >> Any help is greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 > 06:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From lmendez at twcny.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:52:48 2010 From: lmendez at twcny.rr.com (Luis Mendez) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:52:48 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I heard good reviews about the Eclipse by Plantronics. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 20, 2010, at 3:19 PM, "Shannon Geihsler" wrote: > Dear All: > > > > Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to > hear the screen reader you have on your computer? > > > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez%40twcny.rr.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Sep 21 17:46:59 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:46:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] The Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid position Message-ID: Please arrow down to find the position announcement for the Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid. From: Banjo, Akinyemi - ODEP [mailto:banjo.akinyemi at dol.gov] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 8:57 AM Subject: Please disseminate: Free webcast and Position Announcements Dear Colleagues- The OmniGov Training Institute is conducting a free webcast on Federal Hiring Reform Initiatives. Detail information below: Federal Hiring Reform Initiatives Webcast PeopleAdmin will be hosting a Hiring Reform Webcast at 2:00pm Eastern Time on Tuesday, September 28th. Angela Bailey from the Office Personnel Management will be presenting along with PeopleAdmin and Omnigov on new hiring reforms and strategies that will yield better candidates for your agency! Here is the link to register https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/909877090 Overview New hiring reforms announced in May will place more responsibility and requirements on hiring managers. Expectations are for managers to work more closely with HR, including partnering on evaluation and assessment tools and strategies that will yield better candidates. Also, managers will be measured on ensuring new employees have a "successful transition into Federal service". How You Will Benefit * Understand more thoroughly new responsibilities for managers in the hiring process * Improve skills in writing, job announcements, choosing assessment instruments, using category rating and interviewing techniques * Learn about successful on-boarding practices that can be adapted for your agency Who Should Attend Federal managers who expect to hire in the next six to twelve months. http://www.peopleadmin.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=498&mgs1=bfa62emAPf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Position Announcements. Below is the announcement link for the Department of Defence CAP Technology Evaluation Center (CAPTEC) Program Analyst, GS-0343-14 position. The announcement opened on 9/20 and is scheduled to close on 10/4. Please post/share this announcement with your colleagues. http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?OPMControl=2038321 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) is looking to use the Schedule A hiring authority to fill a vacancy position for an EEO Specialist. We are looking for someone interested in assisting in progressing the Agency's EEO and Diversity related programs. The hired candidate would work collaboratively with CMS management, employees, applicants, human resources officials and advocacy groups on issues affecting diversity and inclusion within the CMS workforce. Interested candidates should have a strong background in data analysis, writing, outreach, and program development. Interested applicants should email a resume to the address below. Stacey L. Bryson Team Lead Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services Department of Health & Human Services 7500 Security Blvd., Mail Stop: N2-22-16 Baltimore, MD. 21244 Tel: 410-786-7201 Fax: 410-786-9549 Email: sbryson at cms.hhs.gov ------------------------- Akinyemi Banjo Policy Advisor U.S. Department of Labor Office of Disability Employment Policy 200 Constitution Ave., NW; S-1011 Washington, DC 20210 Phone: 202-693-7919 Web: http://www.dol.gov/odep/ From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Sep 21 18:03:15 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:03:15 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> <058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <56742010526E4680AEDFE9722E6BD58F@none8a46117901> Hello Dennis: The two blue tooth ear pieces I have are both JABRA makes. One is a JABRA 960, and that one is pretty old. I don't think you can buy them any more - that one has a batterry life of about 4 hours. Messes me up when I'm trying to work all day in the office, It means I need to plug it into the charger at lunch time or I will end up being without it later in the day and wearing a wired headset or listening to JAWS aloud all day. I do a lot of work by telephone and find the blue tooth wireless ear piece to be very handy. The JABRA 960 is a bit on the heavy side, for an earpiece that is, and is slightly larger than the newer ones that are out. Even the old one is less than the size of your ear and is not very obtrusive at all. The newer one I have, a BT LHGM is smaller and is lighter - and is very easy to wear and get used to and is less obtrusive. Remember, these things are pretty darn small to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about it much. These are the same blue tooth earpieces that you can use with your cell phone, so you have an idea how small they are. I would suggest that you check around your area in places like Staples office supply and ask to "see" a few of them. They all seem to come in a bubble pack, so I'd ask they pull one out for you. I have made it a practice to get the kind that has a CD ROM with them so that any software that might not already be on your computer, is available for loading. this avoids the online search to find and download the software from some other web site. Getting the darn things configured with your laptop is the trick, that is not remotely accessible. What you really need is a computer-savvy teen ager to help out. If you don't happen to have one of your own, they are easily found in such places as any computer store or can be very easily rented or loaned through friends who have one or two at home. I usually find blue tooth earpieces with a USB thing, less than the size of a thumb drive, that comes with the earpiece, and gets plugged in to one of my USB ports. I think they are antennas, but I'm not sure, all I know is that if I don't have that USB thing plugged in, it won't work right. I have paid between $150 and $400 for these items. They do range in price, and they change quickly, very quickly. My new, BT LHGM was bought 2 years ago and is already considered old. IT still works great, so I'm not in any hurry to get rid of it any time soon. So I'm kind of curious to know what is new that is out there now. One other thing, with JAWS, and I use version 10 these days, when a blue tooth device "connects" with your laptop, some devices will pull jaws in right away and you needn't do anything other than wait for it to kick in. Others, once you hear the connection sound, usually your default email receipt sound, you need to pop into jaws and change your sound card default. Don't panic about that, if you are using JAWS 10 like I am, pull JAWS up, tap U for utilities, then O for sound cards and then arrow up or down to see what kinds of sound cards are listed. If you have a blue tooth device that you've just turned on, one item listed there will be "Blue Tooth Device" listed right with the sound cards. If the blue tooth is not turned on, that "blue tooth device" item won't show in with the sound cards. I run XP home edition with JAWS 10, and after I'd had the blue tooth operate a few times, it began picking up JAWS automatically all by itself. Getting the blue tooth to kick in after you turn it on takes about 10 seconds. The oddest experience I've had with those earpieces is that sighted people think I'm on the telephone all the time. Using it as a simple earpiece is a new experience for those sighted people around you. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Hello Ross, > Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very > encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you > have > liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not > obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. > All the best, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >>I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past >>5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >>find them to be pretty useful. >> I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. >> About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start >> using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But >> they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be >> secure connections. >> This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry >> about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick >> search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure >> nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop >> screen. >> Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that >> does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that >> what you have in your ear does "flash". >> No, that does not make you a flasher. >> OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not >> constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It >> all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. >> One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all >> you >> need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will >> recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never >> once been able to get a laptop to do that. >> I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have >> undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time >> it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get >> it installed properly again. >> Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. >> IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: >> rumpole at roadrunner.com >> Hope that helps. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Shannon Geihsler" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >> >> >>> Dear All: >>> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to >>> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >>> >>> >>> >>> Any help is greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Shannon >>> >>> >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >>> Lubbock, TX 79401 >>> Phone: 763-3999 >>> Fax: 749-3752 >>> >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 >> 06:35:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 06:35:00 From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 03:47:41 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:47:41 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Message-ID: Good evening everyone! I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has any thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde with Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an exam. I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have Zoomtext on my laptop. Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any ideas, again, are welcome. Thanks, Kate -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From agtolentino at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 05:28:21 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:28:21 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be more contentious then. Best, Aser On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll wrote: > Good evening everyone! > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has any > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde with > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > exam. > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have Zoomtext > on my laptop. > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any ideas, > again, are welcome. > > Thanks, > Kate > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 12:52:45 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:52:45 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same thing with the Bar. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > Hi, > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > this > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > and could be more contentious then. > > Best, > Aser > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > wrote: > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > any > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > with > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > exam. > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > Zoomtext > > on my laptop. > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > ideas, > > again, are welcome. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > -- > > Kathryn CARROLL > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > 631-521-318 C > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Thu Sep 23 12:56:24 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:56:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: Message-ID: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Carroll" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same thing with the Bar. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > Hi, > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > this > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > and could be more contentious then. > > Best, > Aser > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > wrote: > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > any > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > with > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > use > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > software > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > exam. > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > Zoomtext > > on my laptop. > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > ideas, > > again, are welcome. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > -- > > Kathryn CARROLL > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > 631-521-318 C > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 13:45:10 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:45:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> Hi Blaine, I know of a number of blind law school graduates who kept up with their classmates and finished in the allotted 3 years, including my husband. It certainly can be done. Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > >> Hi, >> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> was >> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> this >> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >> and could be more contentious then. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> wrote: >> >> > Good evening everyone! >> > >> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >> any >> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > >> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> with >> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > use >> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > software >> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >> > exam. >> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> Zoomtext >> > on my laptop. >> > >> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> ideas, >> > again, are welcome. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Kate >> > >> > -- >> > Kathryn CARROLL >> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > 631-521-318 C >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:07:40 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:07:40 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: I certainly intend to finish in the usual three years, and I know many people who have. I do believe the typical Bar exam in the States is 2 days long. @ Sarah, to speak on what you mentioned, I was talking to a blind lawyer yesterday who did say that all exams while he was in law school were hand-written. So, there is a little bit of a new obstacle here with the new and changing exam technology. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Sarah Clark wrote: > Hi Blaine, > I know of a number of blind law school graduates who kept up with their > classmates and finished in the allotted 3 years, including my husband. It > certainly can be done. > > Sarah > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" < > b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net> > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Carroll" < >> carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >>> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >>> was >>> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >>> this >>> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >>> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >>> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >>> and could be more contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >>> > use >>> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > software >>> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >>> > exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >>> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >>> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From agtolentino at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:14:40 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:14:40 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: As I understand it, one reason law schools have so universally adopted ExamSoft and programs like it is to foster familiarity with the procedure, which is required if one wishes to take the bar exam using a computer (in CA at least). There are still some that handwrite their responses, though how they manage to keep up is beyond me. I did not press for use of an unsecured computer for either the written or multiple choice portions of the exam, but preferring to instead follow what seems to be the generally accepted reader/scribe approach with double time. One thing I learned (though I really hope I do not need to actually have to put it into practice myself) is that you should practice responding to the questions under the exact same conditions as you will have for the test. For example, I practiced performance tests by typing them out and referring to the case file and library on my computer; things obviously worked differently on the real test and some time was expended working out just how we could manage all the content with a separate reader and typist in the loop. The same of course applies to exams at school. Bar exams vary from state to state but I don't recall hearing of any lasting more than three days, whether they be consecutive or alternating again varying by state. I took the July bar over six days due to the double time. On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:56 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it > was > > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > > this > > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > > and could be more contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > > use > > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Sat Sep 25 02:49:51 2010 From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:49:51 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Blaine Deutscher To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > > this > > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > > and could be more contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > > use > > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a user of > > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C > > > _______________________________________________ > > > bllaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > bllaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bllaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > bllaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 13:17:07 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:17:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because I had an excellent reader. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ray wayne Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Blaine Deutscher To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the > exact same thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of > > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three > > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the > > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to > > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school > > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue > > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more > > contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If > > > anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell > > > Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have > > > to > > > use > > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a > > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) > > > problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ > > > bllaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > bllaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bllaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > bllaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% 40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 14:43:35 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:43:35 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an > accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because > I > had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >> > contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >> > > to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 14:46:16 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:46:16 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Message-ID: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during law school exams. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 17:28:04 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:28:04 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> References: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <07FA8D84864549379E8AE4D200B0201F@StevePC> Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your own or have in a large firm? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at for > previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during law > school exams. > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>because I had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. >> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey >> cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable >> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with >> John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you >> decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>> does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>> > more contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>> > > have to use >>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > > software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > > for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% >> 40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath >> ryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche >> r%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny >> c.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c >> ox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From milicatrpevska at aol.com Sat Sep 25 19:16:19 2010 From: milicatrpevska at aol.com (Milica Trpevska) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:16:19 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers Message-ID: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Dear list members I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 19:18:49 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:18:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <07FA8D84864549379E8AE4D200B0201F@StevePC> Message-ID: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> I practice criminal law as a primary practice, but I ocassionally work in the family law arena. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your own or have in a large firm? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at >for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during >law school exams. > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>because I had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil >> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances >> beyond our control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two >>> day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam >>> or how does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the >>> four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they >>> are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>> > more contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing >>> > > them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >>> > > heard that this software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is >>> > > a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > > info for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino >> % >> 40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kat >> h >> ryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >> e >> r%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40n >> y >> c.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >> c >> ox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele > y%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: > 09/25/10 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 19:21:20 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers In-Reply-To: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I believe Stephanie is on this list. I was partially sighted when I took the LSAT a long time ago so I cannot be of much help. The key is to develop a strategy to memorize the order of the list so that you can eliminate as many wrong choices as possible. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Milica Trpevska Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:16 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers Dear list members I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From taiablas at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 19:24:39 2010 From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:24:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers In-Reply-To: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi. I have ordered a magnetic board and letters from the NFB's Independence Market and am using it to prepare. I also ordered a textured board which can be used with plain paper and pencil to produce tactile drawings. I am hoping that these two devices will help with this section if I am permitted to bring them to the test. I have submitted my paperwork to the LSAC and am waiting to hear back. I too would be interested in getting a copy of the guide for blind test-takers. Tai On 9/25/10, Milica Trpevska wrote: > Dear list members > I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical > reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind > students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I > haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet > that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, > has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she > gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. > > As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask > you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular > section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I > can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, > I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your > understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com > From tlfields2 at charter.net Sat Sep 25 19:27:35 2010 From: tlfields2 at charter.net (Tracey Haynes) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:27:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> References: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Message-ID: <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> Hi, I was not a law student but do Have a Master's degree, and I was always told that the law provides time and a half for vision impaired students on all college and standardized testing. Now, that could be the school's policy or it could have come down from higher powers. I am assuming it came from elsewhere, though, since it applied to standardized tests as well. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve P. Deeley" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:43 AM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >> accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >> because >> I >> had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication >> in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated >> printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal >> and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >> email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too >> states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning >> and >> went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We >> loved it! Smile! >> Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>> does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >>> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >>> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >>> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will >>> say >>> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did >>> they >>> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is >>> there >>> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>> > contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>> > > to >>> > > use >>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > > software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > > for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 21:18:07 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:18:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> References: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <630023B2529C422CBC4114B11ED3EA10@StevePC> It would be interesting to know how that figure was calculated and finalized.\ Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Haynes" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Hi, > > I was not a law student but do Have a Master's degree, and I was always > told > that the law provides time and a half for vision impaired students on all > college and standardized testing. Now, that could be the school's policy > or > it could have come down from higher powers. I am assuming it came from > elsewhere, though, since it applied to standardized tests as well. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:43 AM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Ramsey" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >>>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>> accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>> because >>> I >>> had an excellent reader. >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication >>> in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated >>> printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please >>> be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal >>> and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the >>> Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >>> email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of ray wayne >>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too >>> states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning >>> and >>> went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We >>> loved it! Smile! >>> Grumpy Old Blind Man >>> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Blaine Deutscher >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>>> does >>> >>>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >>>> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >>>> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >>>> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will >>>> say >>>> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did >>>> they >>>> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is >>>> there >>>> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting >>>> for >>> the >>>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>>> >>>> Kate >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi, >>>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>>> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>>> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>>> > contentious then. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Aser >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Good evening everyone! >>>> > > >>>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>>> > > anyone has >>>> > any >>>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>>> > > >>>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>>> > > Latitutde >>>> > with >>>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>>> > > to >>>> > > use >>>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>>> > > software >>>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>>> > > an >>>> > > exam. >>>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>>> > > school >>>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>>> > Zoomtext >>>> > > on my laptop. >>>> > > >>>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>>> > > problem? Any >>>> > ideas, >>>> > > again, are welcome. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks, >>>> > > Kate >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> > > bllaw mailing list >>>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > > for >>>> > > bllaw: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > bllaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > bllaw: >>>> > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% >>> 40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kathryn CARROLL >>>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> 631-521-318 C >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa >>> sktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 >> 02:34:00 >> > > > >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 >> 02:34:00 >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 21:19:07 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:19:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> References: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <2125AE99332442D495D4B285D34EE3C9@StevePC> That is cool! I guess working in the criminal arena is quite interesting? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I practice criminal law as a primary practice, but I ocassionally work in > the family law arena. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your > own or have in a large firm? > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at >>for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during >>law school exams. >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. >> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey >> cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable >> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with >> John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you >> decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Ramsey" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >>>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>>because I had an excellent reader. >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be confidential >>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil >>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances >>> beyond our control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of ray wayne >>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >>> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >>> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >>> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >>> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Blaine Deutscher >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two >>>> day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam >>>> or how does >>> >>>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >>> the >>>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the >>>> four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they >>>> are. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>>> >>>> Kate >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi, >>>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>>> > more contentious then. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Aser >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Good evening everyone! >>>> > > >>>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>>> > > anyone has >>>> > any >>>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing >>>> > > them. >>>> > > >>>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>>> > > Latitutde >>>> > with >>>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>>> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >>>> > > heard that this software >>>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>>> > > an >>>> > > exam. >>>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>>> > > school >>>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>>> > Zoomtext >>>> > > on my laptop. >>>> > > >>>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is >>>> > > a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>>> > > problem? Any >>>> > ideas, >>>> > > again, are welcome. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks, >>>> > > Kate >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> > > bllaw mailing list >>>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > > info for >>>> > > bllaw: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino >>> % >>> 40gmai >>> l.com >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > bllaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > for >>>> > bllaw: >>>> > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kat >>> h >>> ryn.e% >>> 40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kathryn CARROLL >>>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >>> e >>> r%40sa >>> sktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40n >>> y >>> c.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >>> c >>> ox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele >> y%40in >> sightbb.com >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: >> 09/25/10 02:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 11:51:06 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 07:51:06 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: Message-ID: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an > accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because > I > had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >> > contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >> > > to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From joramsey at cox.net Sun Sep 26 14:13:06 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 10:13:06 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> RJ: Ordinarily a judge or special magistrate will hear those cases. Is your friend a Judge, or has been appointed as a special magistrate? Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Sep 26 16:08:09 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 12:08:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Fwd: [Legislative Alert- Urgent Action Needed Related to Modernization of the Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act References: Message-ID: <5929632E-DDF0-4064-A43F-DBE4244B4CA9@mac.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Hartle, Jesse" (by way of David Andrews ) > Date: September 24, 2010 4:12:11 PM EDT > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [Nyabs] Legislative Alert- Urgent Action Needed Related to Modernization of the Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act > Reply-To: New York Association of Blind Students Discussion List > > Fellow Federationists: > > Shortly before the August recess began, the new Javits-Wagner-O‚Day (JWOD) Act of 2010 (H.R. 5983) was introduced in the House of Representatives. This bill has been referred to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. > > I am asking that you review the list of Committee members below and, if your member of Congress appears on this list, please contact their office next week and let them know that the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) is opposed to the current draft of this legislation. > > As you know, the NFB has passed resolutions concerning the practice of paying less than minimum wage to disabled employees in sheltered workshop settings. The introduced bill was written without meaningful representation from the disability community, and does nothing to guarantee that blind employees in the JWOD program receive the minimum wage. We must let members of the Committee know that, if a bill is to be drafted that will impact the lives of blind people, we must be a stakeholder in these discussions; and if this legislation is to be passed, it must include provisions to ensure that the minimum wage will be paid to individuals working in the JWOD program. > > Below I have included contact information for each member of the Committee. You may be connected with any of these offices by calling the Capitol switchboard at (202) 225-3121. Thank you all for your attention to this important matter. Please contact me with any questions. > > Jesse M. Hartle > Government Programs Specialist > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, extension 2233 > E-mail: jhartle at nfb.org > > > House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform > > Bilbray, Brian P. (R-CA, 50th) > Staffer: Gary Kline > Office Phone: (202) 225-0508 > > Burton, Dan (R-IN, 5th) > Staffer: Mary Okeeffe > Office Phone: (202) 225-2276 > > Cao, Joseph (R-LA, 2nd) > Staffer: Cassie Alsfeld > Office Phone: (202) 225-6636 > > Chaffetz, Jason (R-UT, 3rd) > Staffer: Mike Jerman > Office Phone: (202) 225-7751 > > Chu, Judy (D-CA, 32nd) > Staffer: Amelia Wang > Office Phone: 225-5464 > > Clay, William Lacy (D-MO, 1st) > Staffer: Marvin Steele > Office Phone: (202) 225-2406 > > Connolly, Gerald E. (D-VA, 11th) > Staffer: Zack Fields > Office Phone: (202) 225-1492 > > Cooper, Jim (D-TN, 5th) > Staffer: Sam Reed > Office Phone: (202) 225-4311 > > Cuellar, Henry (D-TX, 28th) > Staffer: Shelly Amieva > Office Phone: (202) 225-1640 > > Cummings, Elijah E. (D-MD, 7th) > Staffer: Blair Hedgepeth > Office Phone: (202) 225-4741 > > Davis, Danny K. (D-IL, 7th) > Staffer: Yul Edwards > Office Phone: (202) 225-5006 > > Driehaus, Steve (D-OH, 1st) > Staffer: Aaron Wasserman > Office Phone: (202) 225-2216 > > Duncan, John J. Jr. (R-TN, 2nd) > Staffer: Scott Fischer > Office Phone: (202) 225-5435 > > Flake, Jeff (R-AZ, 6th) > Staffer: Sarah Krug > Office Phone: (202) 225-2635 > > Fortenberry, Jeff (R-NE, 1st) > Staffer: Alan Feyerherm > Office Phone: (202) 225-4806 > > Foster, Bill (D-IL, 14th) > Staffer: Matt Ploszek > Office Phone: (202) 225-2976 > > Hodes, Paul W. (D-NH, 2nd) > Staffer: Sarah Levin > Office Phone: (202) 225-5206 > > Issa, Darrell (R-CA, 49) (Ranking Member) > Staffer: Ashley Callen > Office Phone: 225-3906 > > Jordan, James D. (R-OH, 4th) > Staffer: Wesley Goodman > Office Phone: (202) 225-2676 > > Kanjorski, Paul E. (D-PA, 11th) > Staffer: John Latini > Office Phone: (202) 225-6511 > > Kaptur, Marcy (D-OH, 9th) > Staffer: Nathan Facey > Office Phone: (202) 225-4146 > > Kennedy, Patrick (D-RI, 1st) > Staffer: Daniel Murphy > Office Phone: (202) 225-4911 > > Kucinich, Dennis (D-OH, 1st) > Staffer: Diala Jadallah > Office Phone: 225-5871 > > Luetkemeyer, Blaine (R-MO, 9th) > Staffer: Dan Burgess > Office Phone: (202) 225-2956 > > Lynch, Stephen F. (D-MA, 9th) > Staffer: Bruce Fernandez > Office Phone: (202) 225-8273 > > Maloney, Carolyn B. (D-NY, 14th) > Staffer: Orly Isaacson > Office Phone: (202) 225-7944 > > McHenry, Patrick (R-NC, 10th) > Staffer: Alexis Rudakewych > Office Phone: (202) 225-2576 > > Mica, John L. (R-FL, 7th) > Staffer: Casey Brinck > Office Phone: (202) 225-4035 > > Murphy, Chris (D-CT, 5th) > Staffer: Jesse Young > Office Phone: (202) 225-4476 > > Norton, Eleanor Holmes (D-DC, Delegate) > Staffer: Robert White > Office Phone: (202) 225-8050 > > Quigley, Mike (D-IL, 5th) > Staffer: Robyn Russell > Office Phone: 225-4061 > > Schock, Aaron (R-IL, 18th) > Staffer: Mike Pasko > Office Phone: 225-6201 > > Shuster, Bill (R-PA, 9th) > Staffer: Maribeth Collins > Office Phone: (202) 225-2431 > > Speier, Jackie (D-CA, 12th) > Staffer: Josh Connolly > Office Phone: (202) 225-3531 > > Tierney, John F. (D-MA, 6th) > Staffer: Mckee Floyd > Office Phone: (202) 225-8020 > > Towns, Edolphus (D-NY, 10th) (Chairman) > Staffer: James Latoff > Office Phone: (202) 225-5936 > > Turner, Michael R. (R-OH, 3rd) > Staffer: Joseph Heaton > Office Phone: (202) 225-6465 > > Van Hollen, Chris Jr. (D-MD, 8th) > Staffer: Ken Cummings > Office Phone: (202) 225-5341 > > Watson, Diane E. (D-CA, 33rd) > Staffer: Jillian Schlotter > Office Phone: (202) 225-7084 > > Welch, Peter (D-VT, At Large) > Staffer: Calvin Garner > Office Phone: (202) 225-4115 > > Westmoreland, Lynn A. (R-GA, 3rd) > Staffer: Joe Lillis > Office Phone: (202) 225-5901 > > _______________________________________________ > Nyabs mailing list > Nyabs at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nyabs_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nyabs: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nyabs_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 27 06:27:53 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:27:53 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time as their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I have taken many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra time I very seldom actually needed to use it. At times this was quite a shock to professors. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > >> Hi, >> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> was >> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> this >> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >> and could be more contentious then. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> wrote: >> >> > Good evening everyone! >> > >> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >> any >> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > >> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> with >> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > use >> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > software >> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >> > exam. >> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> Zoomtext >> > on my laptop. >> > >> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> ideas, >> > again, are welcome. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Kate >> > >> > -- >> > Kathryn CARROLL >> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > 631-521-318 C >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Mon Sep 27 12:30:45 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:30:45 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> When I attended law school in 1978, I was not allowed to take the LSAT. However, I was not granted extra time for the exams. I guess they would have granted the extra time if I had requested it. No one offered the extra time. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time as > their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I have > taken > many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra time I very > seldom > actually needed to use it. At times this was quite a shock to professors. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >>> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >>> was >>> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >>> this >>> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >>> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as >>> a >>> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the >>> bar >>> and could be more contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone >>> > has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >>> > use >>> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > software >>> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >>> > exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >>> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >>> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Sep 27 14:43:15 2010 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:43:15 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Changing Subject Line In-Reply-To: <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> References: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F606438786@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi All, Since I suspect all of us get more email than we would prefer, please remember to change the subject line when the discussion has changed. The below discussion was completely away from the listed subject line. It takes much longer to slog through a long string of notes to figure out what the discussion is about, and a simple change of subject line will help avoid having to spend all that extra time figuring it out. Sincerely, Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:13 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams RJ: Ordinarily a judge or special magistrate will hear those cases. Is your friend a Judge, or has been appointed as a special magistrate? Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages > may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >> > > heard that this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and >> > > possibly the built-in Windows magnification program) from working >> > > if I attempt to use them during an exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >> > > school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now >> > > don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksan defu r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From lmendez at twcny.rr.com Tue Sep 28 01:50:59 2010 From: lmendez at twcny.rr.com (L A Mendez) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:50:59 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> Message-ID: <005401cb5eaf$999e0970$ccda1c50$@rr.com> The law school I attended required all exams to be turned in on an exam booklet so I used a reader/transcriber which did require extra time to get through the mechanics of getting the answers into the booklet. I did use a typewriter for the essay part of the New York bar exam and Braille to read the Multistate part of the exam. However, I did dictate the multiple choice answers to a transcriber who recorded them on the answer page. My most vivid memory from the bar exam was coming home and sitting in front of the TV with a bottle of Johny Walker Red in hand and waking up in the same chair next morning to find it empty. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 8:31 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams When I attended law school in 1978, I was not allowed to take the LSAT. However, I was not granted extra time for the exams. I guess they would have granted the extra time if I had requested it. No one offered the extra time. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time > as their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I > have taken many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra > time I very seldom actually needed to use it. At times this was quite > a shock to professors. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying >> to make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the day that a blind person >> can keep up with his classmates with the four courses or whatever it >> takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>> forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>> will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>> contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > anyone has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>> > to use the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that >>> > this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the >>> > built-in Windows magnification program) from working if I attempt >>> > to use them during an exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now >>> > don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a >>> > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentin >>> o%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.ka >>> thryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >> er%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele > y%40insightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 08:09:18 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:09:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901><058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> <56742010526E4680AEDFE9722E6BD58F@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <000f01cb5ee4$7438b920$6601a8c0@server> Hello Ross, I've been out of town for a few days and I am very behind in my email. I really appreciate hearing from you. I had no idea that these kinds of portable wireless Bluetooth ear pieces were available. I knew that there were wireless earphones for cell phones but I wasn't aware that they could be made to function with computers. I will venture over to Best Buy later this week and see if they have anything available which isn't in a bubble package and can be examined. I will let you know if I find anything new or interesting. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Hello Dennis: > The two blue tooth ear pieces I have are both JABRA makes. One is a JABRA > 960, and that one is pretty old. I don't think you can buy them any more - > that one has a batterry life of about 4 hours. Messes me up when I'm > trying to work all day in the office, It means I need to plug it into the > charger at lunch time or I will end up being without it later in the day > and wearing a wired headset or listening to JAWS aloud all day. I do a lot > of work by telephone and find the blue tooth wireless ear piece to be very > handy. The JABRA 960 is a bit on the heavy side, for an earpiece that is, > and is slightly larger than the newer ones that are out. Even the old one > is less than the size of your ear and is not very obtrusive at all. > The newer one I have, a BT LHGM is smaller and is lighter - and is very > easy to wear and get used to and is less obtrusive. Remember, these things > are pretty darn small to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about it much. > These are the same blue tooth earpieces that you can use with your cell > phone, so you have an idea how small they are. > I would suggest that you check around your area in places like Staples > office supply and ask to "see" a few of them. They all seem to come in a > bubble pack, so I'd ask they pull one out for you. I have made it a > practice to get the kind that has a CD ROM with them so that any software > that might not already be on your computer, is available for loading. this > avoids the online search to find and download the software from some other > web site. Getting the darn things configured with your laptop is the > trick, that is not remotely accessible. What you really need is a > computer-savvy teen ager to help out. If you don't happen to have one of > your own, they are easily found in such places as any computer store or > can be very easily rented or loaned through friends who have one or two at > home. > I usually find blue tooth earpieces with a USB thing, less than the size > of a thumb drive, that comes with the earpiece, and gets plugged in to > one of my USB ports. I think they are antennas, but I'm not sure, all I > know is that if I don't have that USB thing plugged in, it won't work > right. > I have paid between $150 and $400 for these items. They do range in price, > and they change quickly, very quickly. My new, BT LHGM was bought 2 years > ago and is already considered old. IT still works great, so I'm not in any > hurry to get rid of it any time soon. So I'm kind of curious to know what > is new that is out there now. > One other thing, with JAWS, and I use version 10 these days, when a blue > tooth device "connects" with your laptop, some devices will pull jaws in > right away and you needn't do anything other than wait for it to kick in. > Others, once you hear the connection sound, usually your default email > receipt sound, you need to pop into jaws and change your sound card > default. > Don't panic about that, if you are using JAWS 10 like I am, pull JAWS up, > tap U for utilities, then O for sound cards and then arrow up or down to > see what kinds of sound cards are listed. If you have a blue tooth device > that you've just turned on, one item listed there will be "Blue Tooth > Device" listed right with the sound cards. If the blue tooth is not turned > on, that "blue tooth device" item won't show in with the sound cards. > I run XP home edition with JAWS 10, and after I'd had the blue tooth > operate a few times, it began picking up JAWS automatically all by itself. > Getting the blue tooth to kick in after you turn it on takes about 10 > seconds. > The oddest experience I've had with those earpieces is that sighted people > think I'm on the telephone all the time. Using it as a simple earpiece is > a new experience for those sighted people around you. > > Hope this helps. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:38 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >> Hello Ross, >> Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very >> encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you >> have >> liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not >> obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >> >> >>>I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the >>>past >>>5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >>>find them to be pretty useful. >>> I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. >>> About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start >>> using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But >>> they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be >>> secure connections. >>> This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry >>> about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing >>> quick >>> search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure >>> nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop >>> screen. >>> Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that >>> does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that >>> what you have in your ear does "flash". >>> No, that does not make you a flasher. >>> OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not >>> constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It >>> all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. >>> One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all >>> you >>> need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will >>> recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never >>> once been able to get a laptop to do that. >>> I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have >>> undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time >>> it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get >>> it installed properly again. >>> Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. >>> IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: >>> rumpole at roadrunner.com >>> Hope that helps. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Shannon Geihsler" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >>> >>> >>>> Dear All: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able >>>> to >>>> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Any help is greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shannon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >>>> Lubbock, TX 79401 >>>> Phone: 763-3999 >>>> Fax: 749-3752 >>>> >>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without >>>> express >>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 >>> 06:35:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 > 06:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 03:48:58 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:48:58 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <7BD1C0952F1F4EA39DE35CC3E0A6F69F@spike> I like it! Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray wayne" To: Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> > was >> > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> > this >> > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as >> > a >> > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the >> > bar >> > and could be more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone >> > > has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of >> > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 29 15:38:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:38:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:12 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:10 AM To: 'jobs at nfb.org' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'nedy at wyjlaw.com'; 'newmedia at ja.org'; 'Neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'Nancy W Patton'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'PALSD at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp. To see the complete list of Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies, please visit the Department's web page at: http://www.justice.gov/oarm/attvacancies.html. Below, please find the most recently posted vacancies. We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies ATTORNEY-ADVISOR FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER FEDERAL CORRECTIONAL COMPLEX FLORENCE, COLORADO GS-905-13/14 This position is open until filled but no later than October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-27-2010 SENIOR COUNSEL TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL GS-905-15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2010-81 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: October, 19 2010. Date posted: 09-24-2010 SENIOR COUNSEL TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SL-905-00 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 2010-OIG-SL-01 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: October, 19 2010. Date posted: 09-24-2010 EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY (GS-0905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION GANG UNIT WASHINGTON, DC 10-CRM-GSU-068 Positions are open until filled. Date posted: 09-23-2010 ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0228 (1) Position Applications received after 10/15/2010, will not be considered. Date posted: 09-23-2010 BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF ENFORCEMENT PROGRAMS AND SERVICES OFFICE OF REGULATIONS ATTORNEY(S), GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by October 25, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 09-23-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0218 1 Position Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-23-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0217 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0216 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, EL PASO (SPC), TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0215 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, DENVER, COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0214 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, DALLAS, TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0213 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, ARLINGTON, VIRGINIAVACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0212 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE Vacancy Announcement #10-EDTN-AUSA-03 Applications must be received by Friday, October 8, 2010. Date posted: 09-21-2010 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DIVERSION AND REGULATORY LITIGATION SECTION SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY/GS 15 Applications must be received by October 18,2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-074 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-073 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 DEPUTY CHIEF, GS-15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-072 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-071 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-069 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION ENVIRONMENTAL ENFORCEMENT SECTION GS-12/15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 16, 2010 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 30, 2010 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-10-050-EXC Applications must be received by Thursday, September 30, 2010. Date posted: 09-16-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 10-CO-AUSA-07 This announcement is open from Wednesday, September 15, 2010 to Wednesday September, 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 10-CO-AUSA-04 This announcement is open from Wednesday, September 15, 2010 to Wednesday September, 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FRESNO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-24A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-23A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FRESNO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-22A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK BROOKLYN, NEW YORK Position open until filled, but no later than September 16, 2010. Date posted: 09-14-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 29 15:42:15 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Message-ID: From: CMPDL's Disability Discussion Docket (3D) [mailto:CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Phelan, William Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:37 AM To: CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: FW: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Two special education attorney vacancies in Los Angeles, CA. William J. Phelan, IV, Esq. Special Projects and Technology Coordinator Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association phelanw at staff.abanet.org www.abanet.org/disability ________________________________ From: Nancy C. Constantine [mailto:NConstantine at fagenfriedman.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 12:31 PM To: Phelan, William Cc: Howard Fulfrost; Terilyn Finders Subject: RE: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Hello Bill, Below is the attorney job posting information. Please call me if you have questions. Thank you. SPECIAL EDUCATION ATTORNEY Los Angeles office of Fagen Friedman & Fulfrost LLP has an immediate opening for two experienced special education associates, one mid-level and one senior. Candidates will have excellent writing, analytical, and people skills, value a team work environment, but can work independently, are highly motivated and can assume significant case responsibility. Please submit resume and writing sample to: nconstantine at fagenfriedman.com. NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE. Nancy [cid:image001.jpg at 01CB5FB2.37BFB880] Nancy C. Constantine Executive Director 6300 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1700 Los Angeles, CA 90048-5219 Direct: (323) 330-6814 Main Phone: (323) 330-6300 Main Fax: (323) 330-6311 E-mail: NConstantine at fagenfriedman.com Web: www.fagenfriedman.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT(S): This e-mail communication and any attachment(s) may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged by law and is meant solely for the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized use, review, duplication, disclosure or interception of this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. 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You can switch to the digest format by sending a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. Leave the subject blank and in the body of the message type "SET list HTML DIGEST". To return to the traditional subscription, follow the same directions, but put "SET list NODIGEST" in the body of the message. If you want to leave this list at any time and are an ABA member, please log in at: http://www.abanet.org/elistserv/home.cfm?src=CC&LSN=CMPDL-3D for proper options. If you are not an ABA member and want to leave this list, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "signoff cmpdl-3d." If you have any questions about 3D or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: ~WRD000.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 448 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:47:57 2010 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:47:57 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello List, I am needing a referral for a Lawyer in Texas who practices in family and custody law. If anyone could please please help, it would be greatly appreciated! Marsha Drenth Marsha.drenth at gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5490 (20100929) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Thu Sep 30 14:29:57 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:29:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94FF25146ED245A0BD6FBD328E4394E5@HPLaptop> I am an attorney licensed and practicing in Texas. My office is in Lubbock, Texas. I also practice in family law. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marsha Drenth Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 3:48 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral Hello List, I am needing a referral for a Lawyer in Texas who practices in family and custody law. If anyone could please please help, it would be greatly appreciated! Marsha Drenth Marsha.drenth at gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5490 (20100929) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Sep 30 20:50:56 2010 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:50:56 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Nfbc-info] Are you planning to take the California Bar exam or theMPRE? Message-ID: <2950FAE799BD41ECBDBC2F4225EB56E5@labarre> Please read the below. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karla Gilbride" To: "NFB of California List" Cc: "California Association of Blind Students Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:40 PM Subject: [Nfbc-info] Are you planning to take the California Bar exam or theMPRE? > Disability Rights Advocates would like to speak with individuals who are > planning to take the California Bar exam or the Multistate Professional > Responsibility Exam (MPRE) in California during 2011 and who use screen > access technology (JAWS, ZoomText, or other screen reading or screen > magnification programs) as their primary method of reading in employment > or law school settings. If you are in this situation, please contact > Karla Gilbride at 510-665-8644 or kgilbride at dralegal.org. > > Thank you for your attention. > > > Karla Gilbride > Staff Attorney > Disability Rights Advocates > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > Berkeley, California 94704-1204 > > 510-665-8644 ext. 117 (Tel) > 510-665-8716 (TTY) > 510-665-8511 (Fax) > kgilbride at dralegal.org > > STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY > The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential > and are intended solely for the addressee. This information may also be > legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole > purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this > transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this > transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or at > (510) 665-8644 or (510) 665-8716 (TTY) and delete the message and its > attachments, if any. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbc-info mailing list > Nfbc-info at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Nfbc-info: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 01:35:18 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:35:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 compliant and that is that. Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely inaccessible when it gets to market. There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is accessible. But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You want your books for free, so does everyone else. From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 01:42:24 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops anyone from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you are not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out > your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is > that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the > solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic > documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > compliant and that is that. > > Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people > claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > > We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content > accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of > the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can > lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely > inaccessible when it gets to market. > > There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > accessible. > > But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And > don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled > that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them > to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away > free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there > is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if > there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You > want your books for free, so does everyone else. > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 01:50:54 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:50:54 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: Good evening James, As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. Thanks, Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops anyone > from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you are > not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> compliant and that is that. >> >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> accessible. >> >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:10:27 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:10:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: I see you do not seem to understand that they are complying with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act, so they are building the ramps, it is not their fault that you cannot read it because the product is made to the code to the law. What you perceive as inaccessibility is the failure of the law to make content actually accessible. James On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > anyone from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all > you are not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay out >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> compliant and that is that. >> >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where people >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all of >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher can >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> accessible. >> >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the disabled >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want them >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give away >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because there >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix this if >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? You >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> > > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:18:14 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:18:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and you never charged anyone for your work. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my > intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which > all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or > chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > > More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me > why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having > intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > > Thanks, > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > anyone > > from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > are > > not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > >> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > out > >> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is > >> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the > >> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic > >> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >> compliant and that is that. > >> > >> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > people > >> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >> > >> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content > >> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all > of > >> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > can > >> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely > >> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >> > >> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >> accessible. > >> > >> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And > >> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > disabled > >> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > them > >> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > away > >> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > there > >> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > this if > >> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? > You > >> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 02:30:47 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:30:47 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Message-ID: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Good evening James, I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and use them to your benefit. Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever you'd like with the product of my labour. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > you never charged anyone for your work. > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of my >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use (which >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property or >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >> >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to me >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to having >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >> >> Thanks, >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >> anyone >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >> are >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >> out >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here is >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp the >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in electronic >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>> compliant and that is that. >>>> >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >> people >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>> >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their content >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate all >> of >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >> can >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be completely >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>> >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>> accessible. >>>> >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. And >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >> disabled >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >> them >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >> away >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >> there >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >> this if >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this problem? >> You >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 02:43:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they get paid for their effort? On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok > with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that > I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and > use them to your benefit. > > Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would > be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which > cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever > you'd like with the product of my labour. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: > > > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have > > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, > > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and > > you never charged anyone for your work. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > >> Good evening James, > >> > >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, > >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of > my > >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use > (which > >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property > or > >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. > >> > >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to > me > >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to > having > >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in > >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Thanks, > >> Everett Zufelt > >> http://zufelt.ca > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter > >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > >> View my LinkedIn Profile > >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> > >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops > >> anyone > >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you > >> are > >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >>> > >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay > >> out > >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here > is > >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp > the > >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in > electronic > >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 > >>>> compliant and that is that. > >>>> > >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this > >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real > >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where > >> people > >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. > >>>> > >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I > >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the > >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 > >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their > content > >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate > all > >> of > >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher > >> can > >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be > completely > >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. > >>>> > >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is > >>>> accessible. > >>>> > >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. > And > >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the > >> disabled > >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want > >> them > >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give > >> away > >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because > >> there > >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix > >> this if > >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this > problem? > >> You > >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 03:03:09 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 23:03:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Good evening James, I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: > So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? > Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, > distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they > get paid for their effort? > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >> use them to your benefit. >> >> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >> you'd like with the product of my labour. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >> my >>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >> (which >>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >> or >>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>> >>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >> me >>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >> having >>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Thanks, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>> anyone >>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>> are >>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>> out >>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >> is >>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >> the >>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >> electronic >>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>> people >>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >> content >>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >> all >>>> of >>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>> can >>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >> completely >>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >> And >>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>> disabled >>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>> them >>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>> away >>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>> there >>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>> this if >>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >> problem? >>>> You >>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 03:19:37 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:19:37 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Sorry if I sound too harsh. But you are technically out of line here. It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening James, > > I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. > > Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? > > I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. > > I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. > > Thanks, > > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: > >> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >> get paid for their effort? >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening James, >>> >>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>> use them to your benefit. >>> >>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good evening James, >>>>> >>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>> my >>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>> (which >>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>> or >>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>> >>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>> me >>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>> having >>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>> anyone >>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>> are >>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>> out >>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>> is >>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>> the >>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>> electronic >>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>> people >>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>> content >>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>> all >>>>> of >>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>> can >>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>> completely >>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>> And >>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>> disabled >>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>> them >>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>> away >>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>> there >>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>> this if >>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>> problem? >>>>> You >>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Sep 2 03:38:35 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 22:38:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, I don't know to what you are responding in the beginning nor do I know what you are responding to here for certain. At least most of us are not seeing accessibility as a denial of the right for an author to earn something. Since we are a small market, I believe we also have the right to manipulate the market such that we can have an impact. An author has the right to distribute inaccessible electronic books to colleges, but we have a right to make it difficult. Sometimes rights collide. From what you have written before, in a perfect world, all authors would use the procedure you say you have developed and everything would be accessible, and presumably you might earn some income in the process. I don't even have a problem with that, but I won't assume your system is a perfect one just because you tell us that it is. I assume that some of what you are writing here is to set the stage for that solution. You seem to be forgetting, though, that public libraries exist. While I don't feel that an author owes me a free copy of a work, I also think that BookShare, for example, functions as a sort of library. In another perfect world, should downloaded books be timed so copies can't be kept permanently? They probably should, but this also increases the complexities of systems and adds to the cost. I would also point out to you that at least for now, an author cannot truly prevent someone from lending a hard-copy book to someone else or even trading hardcopy books. They can't prevent a sighted person from going to a library and repeatedly referring to a book or checking it out multiple times. Authors will gain more control with electronic books, but there have always been loopholes in the system. I don't think it is fair to paint accessibility as the only source of loopholes even though I admit that there are some. Until recently, we really have not been in a position to have purchased books do much for us so we've been dependent upon the library lending model. This is likely to be changing and already has to some degree, but it will take us time to get used to it. I will also tell you that when I was in college, I was required to buy three copies of every textbook to have it converted into braille or recorded on tape. Those authors did pretty well by me. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:43:49 -0500, James Pepper wrote: >So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? > Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >get paid for their effort? >On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> Good evening James, >> >> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >> use them to your benefit. >> >> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >> you'd like with the product of my labour. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >> > So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >> > accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >> > everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >> > you never charged anyone for your work. >> > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> > >> >> Good evening James, >> >> >> >> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >> >> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >> my >> >> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >> (which >> >> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >> or >> >> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >> >> >> >> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >> me >> >> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >> having >> >> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >> >> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Thanks, >> >> Everett Zufelt >> >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >> >> >>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >> >> anyone >> >>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >> >> are >> >>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >> >> out >> >>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >> is >> >>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >> the >> >>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >> electronic >> >>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >> >>>> compliant and that is that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >> >>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >> >>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >> >> people >> >>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >> >>>> >> >>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >> >>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >> >>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >> >>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >> content >> >>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >> all >> >> of >> >>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >> >> can >> >>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >> completely >> >>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >> >>>> >> >>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >> >>>> accessible. >> >>>> >> >>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >> And >> >>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >> >> disabled >> >>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >> >> them >> >>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >> >> away >> >>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >> >> there >> >>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >> >> this if >> >>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >> problem? >> >> You >> >>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> blindlaw mailing list >> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 04:09:45 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:09:45 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net><1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC><3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1><7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca><60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Hi George, How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > Sorry if I sound too harsh. > But you are technically out of line here. > It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize > there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. > Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy > capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in > general. > > > Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. > > Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending > the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > Jorge Paez > > > --- > President And CEO: > Paez Production Networks > > > > > > Please note: > this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. > Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication > is directed to. > If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the > subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this > message and/or any accompanying media. > > On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening James, >> >> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so >> I will ignore that question. >> >> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they >> are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know >> if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if >> intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition >> of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to >> purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone >> will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the >> abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep >> intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid >> here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why >> does open source software exist? >> >> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private >> individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not >> corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content >> creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment >> model. >> >> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a >> society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >> >>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't >>> they >>> get paid for their effort? >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I >>>> am ok >>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine >>>> that >>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source >>>> code, and >>>> use them to your benefit. >>>> >>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I >>>> would >>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do >>>> whatever >>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free >>>>> and >>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real >>>>>> property, >>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all >>>>>> of >>>> my >>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>> (which >>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real >>>>>> property >>>> or >>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>> >>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain >>>>>> to >>>> me >>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>> having >>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested >>>>>> in >>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what >>>>>>> stops >>>>>> anyone >>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all >>>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can >>>>>>>> lay >>>>>> out >>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem >>>>>>>> here >>>> is >>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair >>>>>>>> ramp >>>> the >>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>> electronic >>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section >>>>>>>> 508 >>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation >>>>>>>> where >>>>>> people >>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined >>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section >>>>>>>> 508 >>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>> content >>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot >>>>>>>> anticipate >>>> all >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a >>>>>>>> publisher >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>> completely >>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>> And >>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys >>>>>>>> want >>>>>> them >>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, >>>>>>>> give >>>>>> away >>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan >>>>>>>> because >>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone >>>>>>>> fix >>>>>> this if >>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>> problem? >>>>>> You >>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From lists at zufelt.ca Thu Sep 2 04:30:09 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:30:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net><1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC><3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1><7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca><60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: The situations that I find interesting are when corporations purchase rights to inventions and works so that they can delay its use by society, as it would compete with the products they currently sell, or to prevent competitors from making use of the invention. I don't see this as promoting science or the arts. . Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-02, at 12:09 AM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi George, > How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. > > To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. > > Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. > > I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? > > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > > >> Sorry if I sound too harsh. >> But you are technically out of line here. >> It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. >> Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. >> >> >> Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. >> >> Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >> >> On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening James, >>> >>> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. >>> >>> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? >>> >>> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. >>> >>> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>> >>>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >>>> get paid for their effort? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good evening James, >>>>> >>>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>>>> use them to your benefit. >>>>> >>>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>>>> my >>>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>>> (which >>>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>>>> or >>>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>>>> me >>>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>>> having >>>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>>>> is >>>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>>> electronic >>>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>>> content >>>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>>>> all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>>> completely >>>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>>> And >>>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>>>> this if >>>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>>> problem? >>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 14:24:28 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:24:28 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the > problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear > things > like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you > actually > do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this free > software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look at > what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all done, > don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. > > If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are > half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all of > the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each > one > of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are > editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto > one > format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to > do > it for free. > > West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's > property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 15:02:44 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:02:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> Message-ID: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> It might have been a good point if anyone had actually suggested that books should be free for persons with disabilities. Of course, no one said that, so it's really not a very good point at all. The question was whether publishers/content providers had an obligation to make their publicly distributed content accessible. The answer is yes. For some reason that I can't understand this was interpreted as meaning that content must be made available for free. Deeper challenges to the notion of copyright set aside for now, if content is accessible, then it should and would be paid for. Or, alternatively, as Steve suggested, it would be borrowed from the library, just as it is by sighted citizens. This bit about demanding content that is free is a complete red herring. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining > an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything > isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing > > >> What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the >> problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear >> things >> like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you >> actually >> do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this >> free >> software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look >> at >> what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all >> done, >> don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. >> >> If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are >> half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all >> of >> the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each >> one >> of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are >> editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto >> one >> format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to >> do >> it for free. >> >> West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's >> property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! >> >> James >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 15:15:49 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:15:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee amendment. From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 15:25:11 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:25:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <1C60C7C4B8CA485A93167142594677DB@MarcPC> <3073BBC77A12470FA4BF267FBC2BEECE@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> <7348B7EC-CD65-43F3-9B6C-0A8084D9C4E0@zufelt.ca> <60EEF10C-2B66-4EFE-8BD4-23D2B747AA4B@zufelt.ca> <009601cb4a54$adafa9b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: No, that's true. But it is fare competition all the same. Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 2, 2010, at 12:30 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > The situations that I find interesting are when corporations purchase rights to inventions and works so that they can delay its use by society, as it would compete with the products they currently sell, or to prevent competitors from making use of the invention. I don't see this as promoting science or the arts. . > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-02, at 12:09 AM, Dennis Clark wrote: > >> Hi George, >> How about if we merely return copyright law to the copyright system which we had in 1790 or even the 1909 act. Those systems worked very well to accomplish the actual purpose of copyright as stated in the U.S. Constitution. >> >> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. >> >> Notice that award of copyright is not the goal of the Constitution, but rather copyright is simply a mechanism intended to bring about the actual goal " to promote the progress of science and useful arts." Also notice that the exclusive right to the work is limited, and it is awarded to only the author or inventor. It is not awarded to a corporation, because a corporation is a mere legal entity, and cannot in fact author anything. Only people can be authors or inventors, and this fact is still recognized during copyright and patent registration where the actual author or inventor must be listed. >> >> I would argue that the current copyright system in place since 1978 is doing the opposite and is stifling the promotion of the useful arts and sciences. The authors of the works today are not making money, but corporations like West Publishing are becoming rich even though they author nothing. How is making a publishing corporation rich motivating authors to create more works and thereby promoting the useful arts as the Constitution has as its objective? >> >> Dennis >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> >> >>> Sorry if I sound too harsh. >>> But you are technically out of line here. >>> It is IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, and furthermore, you have to realize there are individuals within the companies that create the rights. >>> Killing the IP system would be destructive not only to the US's heavy capitalist mentality but to the world wide economy, and to business in general. >>> >>> >>> Making money is the essence of business. No money, no business, no gains. >>> >>> Now granted, there are stretches that go to far, but the idea that ending the IP system would be the solution is impossible to even consider! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jorge Paez >>> >>> >>> --- >>> President And CEO: >>> Paez Production Networks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note: >>> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >>> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >>> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >>> >>> On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:03 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening James, >>>> >>>> I don't recall saying that an author shouldn't be paid for her effort, so I will ignore that question. >>>> >>>> Why should a publisher be in the business of publishing? Right now they are in the business to turn a profit (like everyone else). I don't know if there would be an economic incentive for publishing companies if intellectual property rights were abolished. I don't see the abolition of the publishing industry as a likelyhood, people will still want to purchase books (those fancy containers for words and ideas) and someone will need to produce them. That being said, I don't think that the abolishment of an industry is necessarily a good reason to keep intellectual property laws alive. I Suppose the reverse question is valid here, why do so many authors freely distribute their works online? Why does open source software exist? >>>> >>>> I would be content with a compromise model that would see only private individuals able to own rights in intellectual property, and not corporations. This would see benefit for ownership pass to content creators, and not corporations... but, I'd still prefer the abolishment model. >>>> >>>> I am aware that my suggestions are not practically implementable in a society / economy predicated on capitalist ideals. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:43 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>> >>>>> So why is it OK for you to charge for you effort but not an author? >>>>> Why should publishers build companies, hire people to make books, >>>>> distribut those books, advertise them, warehouse them, why shouldn't they >>>>> get paid for their effort? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:30 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not ok with you taking away all of my assets from "thinking". I am ok >>>>>> with you doing whatever you like with any intellectual property of mine that >>>>>> I create and you find a copy of. Take my articles, take my source code, and >>>>>> use them to your benefit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you need my assistance with something, or wish to hire me, I would >>>>>> be happy to charge you for my time, something that is finite and which >>>>>> cannot be duplicated. But, once you have paid me for my time, do whatever >>>>>> you'd like with the product of my labour. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 10:18 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> So you are ok with me taking away all of your assets that you have >>>>>>> accumulated in your lifetime from thinking. So if you are a lawyer, >>>>>>> everything you ever did, all of the cases, all of that effort is free and >>>>>>> you never charged anyone for your work. >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good evening James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I am sure you are aware there is a difference between real property, >>>>>>>> chattel, and intellectual property. So, feel free to "take away" all of >>>>>> my >>>>>>>> intellectual property, I don't want it, only the benefit of its use >>>>>> (which >>>>>>>> all can share simultaneously), Please don't take away my real property >>>>>> or >>>>>>>> chattel, I'm not done with it yet... but you can have it when I am. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> More seriously, I was wondering if you, or anyone else, can explain to >>>>>> me >>>>>>>> why they think there is actually a benefit to society as a whole to >>>>>> having >>>>>>>> intellectual content treated as property? I would also be interested in >>>>>>>> hearing why intellectual property should all be in the public domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Everett Zufelt >>>>>>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2010-09-01, at 9:42 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well if you want to give away other people's property then what stops >>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>> from taking everything you own in the name of fairness. After all you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> not using it to the best advantage, I can use it better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:35 PM, James Pepper wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The law for accessibility in documents is Section 508 and you can lay >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>> your content correctly and still not be accessible. The problem here >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> that there is no clear cut solution, whereas with a wheel chair ramp >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> solution is obvious, you build it, but with accessibility in >>>>>> electronic >>>>>>>>>> documents all you have to do is prove that the doucment is section 508 >>>>>>>>>> compliant and that is that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Section 508 is not accessibility. We all know this right here on this >>>>>>>>>> list. What is needed is a definition of accessibility that is a real >>>>>>>>>> solution and is not a plessy versus ferguson type of situation where >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> claim that accessibility is in existence but it doesn't actually work. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We are in the same boat. The problem which has not been defined and I >>>>>>>>>> define it here, is that software companies are only concerned with the >>>>>>>>>> solution as it holds for their own software, they seek out section 508 >>>>>>>>>> compliance and that is all they can do. They do not make their >>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>> accessible to a wide range of products because you cannot anticipate >>>>>> all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the scenarios and so we are stuck in this situation where a publisher >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> lay out their content as accessible in section 508 and yet be >>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible when it gets to market. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are so many variables that it is a miracle that anything is >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But if you want it to work every time, you will have to pay for it. >>>>>> And >>>>>>>>>> don't look now but when a company makes its ramps accessible to the >>>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>>>> that cost is recouped in the price of their product but you guys want >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> to give away books for free. Should houses be free for the blind, give >>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>> free cars. I think we should re-evaluate this free book plan because >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> is no incentive to innovate in accessibility. Why should anyone fix >>>>>>>> this if >>>>>>>>>> there is no benefit other than a pat on the back to solve this >>>>>> problem? >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> want your books for free, so does everyone else. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Sep 2 15:37:26 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:37:26 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: <3FB0C8D9-F05E-4221-BB23-765CE3D909E1@mac.com> Not technically speaking. It is not forced to be free for the blind under any circumstance. If its in a specialized format, or from agencies such as bookshare.org, yes. But if its in regular e-book format, then the author has no pressure whatsoever to make it free for anyone. On Sep 2, 2010, at 11:15 AM, James Pepper wrote: > Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee > amendment. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 16:20:44 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:20:44 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing Message-ID: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> Listmates: I have followed this discussion with interests. I finally had an opportunity to weigh in with some info on West regarding elecgtronic copies of their publications although slightly off the original query. I have a contact at West, available for anyone interested, who I use when obtaining materials from West. They always provide an electronic copy for me along with the hard copy even if they have to contact someone to have it made up. No charge. But most worthy of mentioning, I received easily over four hundred dollars of new publications for FREE only in electronic format because I asked if they could get them for me. They said no problem and never charged me. I didn't have the publications in hard copy as I called to order them and inquire about electronic copies. Got the electronic copies for no charge. Eventually the gravy train ended but I still get any publication directly from West along with electronic copies for no additional charge. Sometimes it may be best to be willing to fork over the extra cash for a new publication because you never know, you MAY get your order in electronic format for free and really save some cash! I agree the publisher is entitled to charge for electronic materials if the books being sought were not purchased from West. Common sense. Best~ James W. Weisberg, Esq. Law Office of J. William Weisberg Palm Springs, California V: 760-992-5114 F: 888-841-1924 E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com Admitted in Wisconsin Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system. This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer. From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Sep 2 16:18:24 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:18:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: I believe part of the notion that we want publishers to give away work came from the perspective that we are forcing them to pay to have materials converted into accessible forms. In some cases, particularly in areas of math and science, making books truly accessible is not easy nor is it all that well- defined. It can mean that the tools they use to print a book won't help them at all to make a book accessible. For some books to be accessible, it is necessary to have descriptions of some drawings as RFBD and others insert into textbooks. While I readily admit there is some validity to this concern, I would also submit that the entire issue of accessibility to printed materials is very new in the scheme of things, and we are still learning. There needs to be some give and take as we figure out the best way to follow. The printing press was the only game in town for the production of materials for more than six hundred years. There was no way to automate accessibility for us in that process. Electronic processing of materials has only been around for perhaps forty years, and only in the last twenty have blind persons truly had access to computers. In many cases, accessibility falls out almost automatically from the process of publishing books but it some cases it doesn't. In some cases, having publishers take accessibility into account when they are planning rather than after the fact significantly reduces the effort for any particular book. I believe that what we are trying to do is to increase the awareness level of how a little planning can significantly provide us access to books. At the same time, we are also trying to figure out where the role of the publisher may have to be augmented by entities like RFBD. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:02:44 -0600, Marc Workman wrote: >It might have been a good point if anyone had actually suggested that books >should be free for persons with disabilities. Of course, no one said that, >so it's really not a very good point at all. >The question was whether publishers/content providers had an obligation to >make their publicly distributed content accessible. The answer is yes. For >some reason that I can't understand this was interpreted as meaning that >content must be made available for free. >Deeper challenges to the notion of copyright set aside for now, if content >is accessible, then it should and would be paid for. Or, alternatively, as >Steve suggested, it would be borrowed from the library, just as it is by >sighted citizens. >This bit about demanding content that is free is a complete red herring. >Regards, >Marc >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:24 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> this is a good point. Buying books is just one of the costs of obtaining >> an education. we have all had to bite the bullet and do it and everything >> isn't free in the world for anyone let alone people with disabilities. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] West Publishing >> >> >>> What? the costs of making a book accessible are excessive. That is the >>> problem here. Where do you get the idea that it is easy? Ah you hear >>> things >>> like you can make DAISY books in Microsoft Word well pal until you >>> actually >>> do it, you do not realize how much content goes missing. All of this >>> free >>> software that is designed for accessibility misses the mark. Just look >>> at >>> what we have now. Are you happy with accessibility now. Are we all >>> done, >>> don't need to do any more work on this, everything is accessible now. >>> >>> If it were easy everyone would do it. The problem here is that there are >>> half a dozen different formats for electronic books, not to mention all >>> of >>> the free services that create books and each one of them, I repeat each >>> one >>> of them has to be laid out individually and that means the editors are >>> editing editions over and over again. Until this gets standardized onto >>> one >>> format then publishers can challenge these laws telling them they have to >>> do >>> it for free. >>> >>> West publishing owns their book. Unless you want to seize people's >>> property, then if they want to sell the product then that is up to them! >>> >>> James >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From lists at zufelt.ca Fri Sep 3 02:17:41 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:17:41 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition Message-ID: Good evening, The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? Thanks in advance, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 3 02:39:33 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:39:33 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Certainly not. Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening, > > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > > Thanks in advance, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From lists at zufelt.ca Fri Sep 3 02:53:59 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:53:59 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> Good evening, Apple also bundles a built-in browser (Safari) and didn't get into trouble the same way that Microsoft did for Internet Explorer. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-02, at 10:39 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Certainly not. > Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > > > > On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> Good evening, >> >> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > Thanks. > > > > Jorge Paez > > > --- > President And CEO: > Paez Production Networks > > > > > > Please note: > this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. > Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. > If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 02:59:15 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:59:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F6061AEB97@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <4C753F47.7050501@ameritech.net> <5C3673890229420FAAAD1733D80B2E23@spike> <3115036A56CE4449AF1135D39674618C@MarcPC> Message-ID: James, you are mis-stating the Chafee Amendment. It says that a nonprofit, can provide access to copyrighted works to qualifying blind and print-handicapped persons without having first to get permission from the copyright holder. It doesn't say "free". So, a qualified nonprofit could at least recoup its costs. Dave At 10:15 AM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Actually it is required to be free to the blind, that is the law. The Chafee >amendment. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 03:05:05 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:05:05 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a similar argument, it seems to me, as that which the U.S. Department of Justice used 15 years ago against Microsoft. They didn't want MS to bundle Internet Explorer in the OS saying it was unfair competition. They might require MS to do something to level the playing field, but I doubt they could stop them all together. Dave At 09:17 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Good evening, > >The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they >were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > >http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > >Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > >Thanks in advance, >Everett Zufelt >http://zufelt.ca David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Fri Sep 3 03:06:06 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for the Apple at the time. Dave At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >Certainly not. >Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > > > >On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > > > Good evening, > > > > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering > if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they > were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > > > > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > > > > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Everett Zufelt > > http://zufelt.ca > > > > Follow me on Twitter > > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > > > View my LinkedIn Profile > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >Thanks. > > > >Jorge Paez > > >--- >President And CEO: >Paez Production Networks > > > > > >Please note: >this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this >communication is directed to. >If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in >the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all >copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 3 03:06:49 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 23:06:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> <3D750BE4-66E5-4F09-BA02-A6D5828531D0@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <82121102-E7DE-4934-91E9-1AA24D04729D@mac.com> Good point, but if memory serves me right, Microsoft got in trouble with the EU which Apple has not been spared from either. Jorge Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:53 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > Good evening, > > Apple also bundles a built-in browser (Safari) and didn't get into trouble the same way that Microsoft did for Internet Explorer. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-02, at 10:39 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Certainly not. >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >>> Good evening, >>> >>> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>> >>> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>> >>> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 18:41:44 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:41:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] West Publishing In-Reply-To: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> References: <39EAF1C2C6A94C1A8F537AE181B8B849@Blind> Message-ID: Cool! On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 11:20 AM, James Weisberg wrote: > Listmates: > > > > I have followed this discussion with interests. I finally had an > opportunity to weigh in with some info on West regarding elecgtronic copies > of their publications although slightly off the original query. I have a > contact at West, available for anyone interested, who I use when obtaining > materials from West. They always provide an electronic copy for me along > with the hard copy even if they have to contact someone to have it made up. > No charge. But most worthy of mentioning, I received easily over four > hundred dollars of new publications for FREE only in electronic format > because I asked if they could get them for me. They said no problem and > never charged me. I didn't have the publications in hard copy as I called > to order them and inquire about electronic copies. Got the electronic > copies for no charge. Eventually the gravy train ended but I still get any > publication directly from West along with electronic copies for no > additional charge. Sometimes it may be best to be willing to fork over the > extra cash for a new publication because you never know, you MAY get your > order in electronic format for free and really save some cash! > > > > I agree the publisher is entitled to charge for electronic materials if the > books being sought were not purchased from West. Common sense. > > > > Best~ > > > > James W. Weisberg, Esq. > > Law Office of J. William Weisberg > > Palm Springs, California > > V: 760-992-5114 > > F: 888-841-1924 > > E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com > > Admitted in Wisconsin > > Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy > > This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. > Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), > you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information > contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, > please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your > system. > > This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client > relationship > nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg > expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in > accordance with this disclaimer. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 18:32:04 2010 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:32:04 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for > the Apple at the time. > > Dave > > > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: > >> Certainly not. >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >> > Good evening, >> > >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> > >> > >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> > >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> > >> > Thanks in advance, >> > Everett Zufelt >> > http://zufelt.ca >> > >> > Follow me on Twitter >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> > >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> --- >> President And CEO: >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: >> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication >> is directed to. >> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the >> subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this >> message and/or any accompanying media. >> > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 20:02:23 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:02:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind paralegals. In-Reply-To: <1E42BCF5105F47ABBF9C9FC7440042ED@OwnerPC> References: <1E42BCF5105F47ABBF9C9FC7440042ED@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <32CC2EA65E9D4F5BB40225B5302FE141@spike> Hi tracy, I am a blind free lance paralegal in California. I primarily work with solo practitioners and small firms. The job market for paralegals is very tight now due to the economy and the downsizing of many larger law firms. feel free to contact me off list as needed with any specific questions. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 email: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Fields" To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:04 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Blind paralegals. > Hi all, > > I am new to the list. I am looking to change careers and go into the > paralegal field and was hoping to get info from any blind paralegals that > may be on this list as to their success in finding work in this field and > the difficulties they have run up against, if there are any. > > Any advice or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. > > Tracey > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Sep 4 02:34:17 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 20:34:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: Message-ID: <6421E302318E4AB7B14FE492229F11A9@valtd> Hello Mr. Zufelt: If Microsoft can build a screen reader that compares favourably to what Apple has, I shall be the most happy fellow on earth! If Microsoft's screen reader can read almost any program I throw at it, example, Point of Sale software et al, I will not need to HIRE A SCRIPTER and pay a hefty sum just so I can staill somewhat marginally gainfully employed. Microsoft's entry to the screen reader world WILL NOT put screen reader developers out of business. There will be areas which the Microsoft screen reader MAY NOT ADEQUATELY address, and this is where these developers will shine. Microsoft's entry into this market SHOULD SPAR AND ENCOURAGE COMPETITION, and perhaps FORCE CURRENT DEVELOPERS to pay more attention to SQUASHING BUGS as opposed to introducing useless newer and better crap and charging me an arm and a toe to upgrade. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From dandrews at visi.com Sat Sep 4 03:01:23 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 22:01:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little indirectly. Dave At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? > >On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: > > > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for > > the Apple at the time. > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: > > > >> Certainly not. > >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > >> > >> > Good evening, > >> > > >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if > >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to > >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. > >> > > >> > > >> > http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html > >> > > >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? > >> > > >> > Thanks in advance, > >> > Everett Zufelt > >> > http://zufelt.ca > >> > > >> > Follow me on Twitter > >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > >> > > >> > View my LinkedIn Profile > >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > blindlaw mailing list > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> Jorge Paez > >> > >> > >> --- > >> President And CEO: > >> Paez Production Networks > >> > >> > >> > >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 4 03:25:07 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 23:25:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: <8D7B0579-A283-489B-BFB8-24C866F3B594@zufelt.ca> I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user on the Windows operating system continues to improve. Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: > They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little indirectly. > > Dave > > At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >> >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews wrote: >> >> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available for >> > the Apple at the time. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > >> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >> > >> >> Certainly not. >> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> >> >> >> > Good evening, >> >> > >> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to >> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> > >> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> > >> >> > Thanks in advance, >> >> > Everett Zufelt >> >> > http://zufelt.ca >> >> > >> >> > Follow me on Twitter >> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> > >> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jorge Paez >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> >> President And CEO: >> >> Paez Production Networks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From k7uij at panix.com Sat Sep 4 16:50:09 2010 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> <8D7B0579-A283-489B-BFB8-24C866F3B594@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <5E35A67A17404027AC5AB9BCA682E61D@owner1e06aeb63> I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen the way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind Europeans in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still feel that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over there has rubbed off on them? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition >I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading >products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user >on the Windows operating system continues to improve. > > > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: > >> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little >> indirectly. >> >> Dave >> >> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>> wrote: >>> >>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>> > for >>> > the Apple at the time. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > >>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>> > >>> >> Certainly not. >>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > Good evening, >>> >> > >>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were >>> >> to >>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>> >> > >>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>> >> > >>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >> > >>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> > for >>> >> blindlaw: >>> >> > >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >> >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Jorge Paez >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --- >>> >> President And CEO: >>> >> Paez Production Networks >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Sep 3 11:54:46 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 06:54:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <2060FC49-FF71-4D83-B4C9-7C5948DD6E27@mac.com> Message-ID: Well, you could be right, but Apple hasn't had anybody for years who wants to write a screen reader. I think we really have to understand the differences between the Windows and Apple environments. I don't think you can assume that there might not be a move by some. Best regards, Steve On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:39:33 -0400, Jorge Paez wrote: >Certainly not. >Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >> Good evening, >> >> The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were to bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >> >> Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >Thanks. >Jorge Paez >--- >President And CEO: >Paez Production Networks >Please note: >this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. >Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. >If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Sep 4 18:04:54 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:04:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition In-Reply-To: <5E35A67A17404027AC5AB9BCA682E61D@owner1e06aeb63> Message-ID: Mike, >From what I read on other lists, I think the feeling outside of the United States is pretty much that Microsoft should provide a screen reader with Windows. I would even say that it even ties into anticoporate feelings in that it is seen as them dodging their responsibilities when they don't provide one. Apple is also putting more pressure on through its inclusion of Voice-over so we're seeing the sentiment here in the United States as well. I think that it tends to be people who are close to the industry who don't feel this is necessarily good for us, including myself, but we are under more and more pressure to figure out how we can help people buy screen readers, especially if we see purse strings tighten up as may be the case. When a screen reader cost half as much as the computer, as was the case a decade ago, it was not easy to swallow but still acceptable. When the screen reader costs more than twice as much as a computer, as is the case with Netbooks and cheaper laptops and desktop machines as is the case now, it is much harder to accept. Even the price of Microsoft Office has come down some over the years. I don't have a good answer for this and that is a problem. Personally, the fact that I work every day on my job with products that are competing with Microsoft such as Lotus Notes, I am probably more sensitive to this than many. I am not one who believes in conspiracies, I just don't think Microsoft would likely prioritize making their competition work better with their screen reader. I also see too many cases where one screen reader works better than another in specific cases and that competition makes them all better. The Windows environment is enough different than that of Apple that there just isn't as tight of controls on applications, and I am just not convinced that the same model that Apple is using would work under Windows, at least not at this point. Windows is evolving in such a way that it might be more the case in five years or so, so I am very aware that my position might change. I think we're dealing with what is theoretically better for us versus what is truly better for us. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: >I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft >HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen the >way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind Europeans >in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it >was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still feel >that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over there >has rubbed off on them? >Mike >----- Original Message ----- >From: "E.J. Zufelt" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition >>I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >>care about competition because they truly want to see better screen-reading >>products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >>competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader user >>on the Windows operating system continues to improve. >> >> >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: >> >>> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a little >>> indirectly. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>>> > for >>>> > the Apple at the time. >>>> > >>>> > Dave >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Certainly not. >>>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> > Good evening, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering if >>>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they were >>>> >> to >>>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >> > >>>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> blindlaw: >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Jorge Paez >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> --- >>>> >> President And CEO: >>>> >> Paez Production Networks >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From womankind at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 03:38:49 2010 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:38:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft Outlook 2003 and organizing by catagories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, is anyone able to use the Microsoft Outlook 2003 function for organizing contacts by catagoriesand then searching by those catagories? Thanks. Stephanie Stephanie Ortoleva, Esq. stephanieortoleva at gmail.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 20:17:45 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Message-ID: <84563.46751.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: “please enter the two words shown above.” The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: “Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 7 20:41:54 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:41:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <84563.46751.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: “please enter the two words shown above.” The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: “Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From joramsey at cox.net Tue Sep 7 21:04:36 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:04:36 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if any advocacy group has considered a cause of action because of these captias. I fail to see how they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website accessibility. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the two words shown above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: "Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r r.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From taiablas at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 13:32:53 2010 From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:32:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Nonvisual Techniques for LSAT Message-ID: Hello all. I am looking to speak with individuals who took the LSAT nonvisually. I am retaking it to get a higher score but need to figure out alternative techniques for the logic games portion of the test. When I received tutoring from Kaplan, they suggested drawing pictures which did not work well for me. I have no usable vision to aid on the test. I am also interested in hearing from individuals who received tutoring before taking the LSAT regarding their experiences. Please contact me via email at taiablas at gmail.com. Thanks. Tai From tom at tomladis.com Thu Sep 9 15:58:47 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:58:47 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition References: Message-ID: <75BF70F7412D4427B7D75753255AED76@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> Hello All, I agree that competition is good, and also agree that the competitive software is becoming less and less affordable. I was lucky to have a good case for DHS to get my computer set up with JAWS and OpenBook so that I can be as independent as possible, but it was not cheap. >From what I understand, the twenty first century communication act had some money set aside, and subsidizing companies or expanding funding for DHS would be one way to make these things more available and still allow Microsoft to have a built in solution. Tom Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and anti-competition > Mike, > >>From what I read on other lists, I think the feeling outside of the United >>States is pretty much that Microsoft should > provide a screen reader with Windows. I would even say that it even ties > into anticoporate feelings in that it is seen as > them dodging their responsibilities when they don't provide one. Apple is > also putting more pressure on through its > inclusion of Voice-over so we're seeing the sentiment here in the United > States as well. I think that it tends to be people > who are close to the industry who don't feel this is necessarily good for > us, including myself, but we are under more and > more pressure to figure out how we can help people buy screen readers, > especially if we see purse strings tighten up as > may be the case. When a screen reader cost half as much as the computer, > as was the case a decade ago, it was not > easy to swallow but still acceptable. When the screen reader costs more > than twice as much as a computer, as is the > case with Netbooks and cheaper laptops and desktop machines as is the case > now, it is much harder to accept. Even > the price of Microsoft Office has come down some over the years. I don't > have a good answer for this and that is a > problem. Personally, the fact that I work every day on my job with > products that are competing with Microsoft such as > Lotus Notes, I am probably more sensitive to this than many. I am not one > who believes in conspiracies, I just don't > think Microsoft would likely prioritize making their competition work > better with their screen reader. I also see too many > cases where one screen reader works better than another in specific cases > and that competition makes them all better. > The Windows environment is enough different than that of Apple that there > just isn't as tight of controls on applications, > and I am just not convinced that the same model that Apple is using would > work under Windows, at least not at this > point. Windows is evolving in such a way that it might be more the case > in five years or so, so I am very aware that my > position might change. I think we're dealing with what is theoretically > better for us versus what is truly better for us. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:50:09 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: > >>I can remember back in 1995 at an "accessibility summit" held at Microsoft >>HQ (ironically, held just after W95 was released -- you should have seen >>the >>way one of the buildings was trashed from the party!), many blind >>Europeans >>in attendance actually wanted Microsoft to build its own screen-reader; it >>was we Americans that expressed doubts. Wonder if blind Europeans still >>feel >>that way or whether the anti-corporate feelings in some countries over >>there >>has rubbed off on them? > >>Mike > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "E.J. Zufelt" >>To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:25 PM >>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Microsoft built-in screenreader and >>anti-competition > > >>>I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article, but I imagine they >>>care about competition because they truly want to see better >>>screen-reading >>>products available for Windows. I imagine that they believe that strong >>>competition is key to ensuring that the experience of a screen-reader >>>user >>>on the Windows operating system continues to improve. >>> >>> >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-03, at 11:01 PM, David Andrews wrote: >>> >>>> They care, they get donations, grants, etc., so are competing if a >>>> little >>>> indirectly. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 01:32 PM 9/3/2010, you wrote: >>>>> NVDA is open source, what do they care about competition? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:06 PM, David Andrews >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > It isn't the same, there were not any other screen readers available >>>>> > for >>>>> > the Apple at the time. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > At 09:39 PM 9/2/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Certainly not. >>>>> >> Apple does it and hasn't gotten into trouble. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:17 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > Good evening, >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > The lead developer of NVDA recently wrote a brief post pondering >>>>> >> > if >>>>> >> Microsoft could be liable for anti-competitive practices if they >>>>> >> were >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> bundle a built-in screen-reader with its operating system. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/09/why-cant-microsoft-build-screen-reader.html >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Thanks in advance, >>>>> >> > Everett Zufelt >>>>> >> > http://zufelt.ca >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Follow me on Twitter >>>>> >> > http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > View my LinkedIn Profile >>>>> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> >> > for >>>>> >> blindlaw: >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Jorge Paez >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> --- >>>>> >> President And CEO: >>>>> >> Paez Production Networks >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >>>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Fri Sep 10 09:42:11 2010 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:42:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> References: <000f01cb4ecd$1bfcb6c0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <67C285EDD5804B57ABEA860438B1445C@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <5062DDE2D94D47A0B7652574186C5051@Scorpio13> Do you mean the concept of captchas in general, or visual captchas? I think advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas because they are, in fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real threat. The question is how they should be designed. This is problematic because I can't think of a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The best ones are probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably discriminate against certain people with developmental disabilities. I guess the best we can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few people as possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a security mechanism that makes them unnecessary. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if any advocacy group has considered a cause of action because of these captias. I fail to see how they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website accessibility. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello everyone, So how can this new fangled audio captcha be accessed by the deaf-blind? Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Good afternoon list members. I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in page has a different Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter in your log-in information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the two words shown above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice that says: "Please enter the following words. Do not worry if you have trouble, just enter your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a word such as Saturday, then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you do not enter in the numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and access your account. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r r.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 16:49:07 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <5062DDE2D94D47A0B7652574186C5051@Scorpio13> Message-ID: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fair point. --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > From: Chris Danielsen > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > Do you mean the concept of captchas > in general, or visual captchas? I think > advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > because they are, in > fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > threat. The question > is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > I can't think of > a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > best ones are > probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > discriminate > against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > guess the best we > can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > people as > possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > security > mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > any advocacy group > has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > I fail to see how > they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > accessibility. > Cordially, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627    > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be > confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > communication in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any > computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > of this > communication or the information it contains may result in > criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > secure.  If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > email to > communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us > immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must > also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through > circumstances beyond our > control.  Thank you.  > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello everyone, > >     So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > accessed by the deaf-blind? > > Peter Donahue > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Good afternoon list members. > I would like to up-date you on Linkedin.  The log-in > page has a different > Captcha that works and is accessible.  Once you enter > in your log-in > information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > two words shown > above."  The audio link comes up with a clear voice > that says:  "Please > enter the following words.  Do not worry if you have > trouble, just enter > your best Guess.  You will here a number IE 5, then a > word such as Saturday, > > then a number like 8 and then a word of less.  If you > do not enter in the > numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > access your > account. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 19:27:26 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Chris and everyone, I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "William ODonnell" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Fair point. --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > From: Chris Danielsen > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > Do you mean the concept of captchas > in general, or visual captchas? I think > advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > because they are, in > fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > threat. The question > is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > I can't think of > a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > best ones are > probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > discriminate > against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > guess the best we > can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > people as > possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > security > mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > any advocacy group > has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > I fail to see how > they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > accessibility. > Cordially, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be > confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > communication in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any > computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > of this > communication or the information it contains may result in > criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us > immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must > also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through > circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello everyone, > > So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > accessed by the deaf-blind? > > Peter Donahue > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Good afternoon list members. > I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in > page has a different > Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter > in your log-in > information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > two words shown > above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice > that says: "Please > enter the following words. Do not worry if you have > trouble, just enter > your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a > word such as Saturday, > > then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you > do not enter in the > numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > access your > account. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > of virus signature > database 5439 (20100910) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 10 19:51:46 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:51:46 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Absolutely not. CAPTCHAs aren't used to stop abuse of a service, its to stop robots from attacking a site. And I guess to a degree Chris is right, somehow or other someone's always gonna be discriminated against in these captchas, and one thing about business--specially on big sites, is that they please the greatest majority only. They do this for purely economic reasons, but the trouble too is that you can't please everyone, specially when it comes to security, purely for security's sake, in the sense that someone's always gonna complain. Its like TSA checkpoints, lots of people complain, and things happen, but its there for security. Like it or not, its gonna stay there until someone comes up with something better. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Chris and everyone, > > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which > these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to > track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would > be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report > Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for > this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Fair point. > > > --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Sep 10 20:42:17 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:42:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Peter, It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the network and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could be scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest as an alternative. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >Hello Chris and everyone, > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one would >be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those "Report >Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >Peter Donahue >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William ODonnell" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >Fair point. >--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 21:03:52 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:03:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <232180.11990.qm@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com><004a01cb511e$33c2bc20$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002501cb512b$ac837110$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, And if you know the IP addresses or zones on which those robots operate they could be blocked by the site/server administrator hence the need to report such robot attacks. I'd like to know how it is that companies like AMWAY Global which does a tremendous amount of business on the Internet can protect their infrastructure without resorting to the use of CAPTCHAS making doing business difficult for its customers and IBOS. I've commended them on numerous occasions for their refraning from the use of CAPTCHAS to control robot attacks. Perhaps they can teach the rest of the Internet community a thing or two about site/server security without inconveniencing users of these resources. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Absolutely not. CAPTCHAs aren't used to stop abuse of a service, its to stop robots from attacking a site. And I guess to a degree Chris is right, somehow or other someone's always gonna be discriminated against in these captchas, and one thing about business--specially on big sites, is that they please the greatest majority only. They do this for purely economic reasons, but the trouble too is that you can't please everyone, specially when it comes to security, purely for security's sake, in the sense that someone's always gonna complain. Its like TSA checkpoints, lots of people complain, and things happen, but its there for security. Like it or not, its gonna stay there until someone comes up with something better. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Chris and everyone, > > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from > which > these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to > track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one > would > be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those > "Report > Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need > for > this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William ODonnell" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Fair point. > > > --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 21:15:08 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:15:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: Message-ID: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Steve and everyone, I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when I ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps but doesn't shut anyone out. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter, It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the network and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could be scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest as an alternative. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >Hello Chris and everyone, > I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >would >be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >"Report >Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >Peter Donahue >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William ODonnell" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >Fair point. >--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> From: Chris Danielsen >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >> Do you mean the concept of captchas >> in general, or visual captchas? I think >> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >> because they are, in >> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >> threat. The question >> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >> I can't think of >> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >> best ones are >> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >> discriminate >> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >> guess the best we >> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >> people as >> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >> security >> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >> any advocacy group >> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >> I fail to see how >> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >> accessibility. >> Cordially, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be >> confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >> communication in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >> associated printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any >> computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >> of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in >> criminal and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >> the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >> secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >> email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >> immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >> also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >> circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >> accessed by the deaf-blind? >> >> Peter Donahue >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Good afternoon list members. >> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >> page has a different >> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >> in your log-in >> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >> two words shown >> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >> that says: "Please >> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >> trouble, just enter >> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >> word such as Saturday, >> >> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >> do not enter in the >> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >> access your >> account. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >> of virus signature >> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >> >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Sep 10 21:25:36 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:25:36 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Peter: very good point. However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. Also, you have to understand different companies create different structures, so it'll depend on that. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well > for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when I > ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps > but doesn't shut anyone out. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter, > > It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from getting > visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > network > and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because > there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide their > origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think that > CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused limited > thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just > are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may > discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is > developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a password > is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could > be > scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't > like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to suggest > as an > alternative. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from which >> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >> would >> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >> "Report >> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need for >> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> Peter Donahue > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Fair point. > > >> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >>> From: Chris Danielsen >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>> because they are, in >>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>> threat. The question >>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>> I can't think of >>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>> best ones are >>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>> discriminate >>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>> guess the best we >>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>> people as >>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>> security >>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>> any advocacy group >>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>> I fail to see how >>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>> accessibility. >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be >>> confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>> communication in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>> associated printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>> computer. Please be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>> of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>> criminal and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>> the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>> secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>> email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>> immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>> also be aware that email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>> circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Good afternoon list members. >>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>> page has a different >>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>> in your log-in >>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>> two words shown >>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>> that says: "Please >>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>> trouble, just enter >>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>> word such as Saturday, >>> >>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>> do not enter in the >>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>> access your >>> account. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Sep 10 21:34:00 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:34:00 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Message-ID: <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 22:02:35 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:02:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> Message-ID: <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello George and everyone, I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in the email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter: very good point. However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. Also, you have to understand different companies create different structures, so it'll depend on that. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well > for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when > I > ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra steps > but doesn't shut anyone out. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter, > > It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from > getting > visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > network > and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. Because > there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide > their > origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think > that > CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused > limited > thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers just > are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may > discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme is > developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a > password > is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this could > be > scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't > like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to > suggest > as an > alternative. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >> which >> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers to >> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >> would >> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >> "Report >> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >> for >> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> Peter Donahue > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William ODonnell" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Fair point. > > >> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >>> From: Chris Danielsen >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>> because they are, in >>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>> threat. The question >>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>> I can't think of >>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>> best ones are >>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>> discriminate >>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>> guess the best we >>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>> people as >>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>> security >>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>> any advocacy group >>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>> I fail to see how >>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>> accessibility. >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be >>> confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>> communication in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>> associated printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>> computer. Please be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>> of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>> criminal and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>> the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>> secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>> email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>> immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>> also be aware that email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>> circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Good afternoon list members. >>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>> page has a different >>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>> in your log-in >>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>> two words shown >>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>> that says: "Please >>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>> trouble, just enter >>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>> word such as Saturday, >>> >>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>> do not enter in the >>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>> access your >>> account. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>> of virus signature >>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 10 22:11:51 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:11:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> Message-ID: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Steve and everyone, It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to solve captchas independently. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From tlfields2 at charter.net Fri Sep 10 22:20:53 2010 From: tlfields2 at charter.net (Tracey Fields) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:20:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> Hi all, I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory toward anyone that way. Tracey Fields -------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donahue" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello George and everyone, > > I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required > for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in > the > email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out > there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 22:41:53 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:41:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS In-Reply-To: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: It's a matter of priorities then, isn't it? Shouldn't we be making it a priority to enhance web accessibility today rather than making it a bigger priority to design vehicles for the blind in a distant tomorrow? Joe Orozco "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:12 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS Hello Steve and everyone, It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to solve captchas independently. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: It's very complicated. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorams ey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanie lsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/willia m.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve. jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgea paez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40insightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 03:08:00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonah ue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 22:46:31 2010 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:46:31 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Driver Challenge and CAPTCHAS In-Reply-To: <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <768A94E58F2C486B892AE3E667A0F281@StevePC> <005d01cb5135$2bcbbc80$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Oh, a blind-driver-interface will be a miracle. Hopefully, it will soon be available for us. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Steve and everyone, > > It can't be any more complicated than developing a car drivable by a blind > person. And we're developing such a beast. If we can find the technical > know-how to develop a blind drivable vehicle interface for God sakes we > should be able to develop software capable of making captcha images > available to screen reading systems while hiding it from robots. We're 100% > behind the Blind Driver Challenge but have a real issue with the idea that > we can develop this vehicle interface but seem lost when it comes to the > problem of enabling blind and deaf-blind individuals to have the ability to > solve captchas independently. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > It's very complicated. > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > > Peter: > > very good point. > > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > > > Jorge > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > > > >> Hello Steve and everyone, > >> > >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in > >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works > well > >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed > when > >> I > >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra > >> steps > >> but doesn't shut anyone out. > >> > >> Peter Donahue > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Steve Jacobson" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> > >> > >> Peter, > >> > >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from > >> getting > >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the > >> network > >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. > >> Because > >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide > >> their > >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think > >> that > >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused > >> limited > >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers > >> just > >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs > may > >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even > >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme > >> is > >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a > >> password > >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this > >> could > >> be > >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we > don't > >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to > >> suggest > >> as an > >> alternative. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> > >>> Hello Chris and everyone, > >> > >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the > >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from > >>> which > >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers > >>> to > >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one > >>> would > >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those > >>> "Report > >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need > >>> for > >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. > >> > >>> Peter Donahue > >> > >> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "William ODonnell" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> > >> > >>> Fair point. > >> > >> > >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: > >> > >>>> From: Chris Danielsen > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM > >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas > >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think > >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas > >>>> because they are, in > >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real > >>>> threat. The question > >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because > >>>> I can't think of > >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The > >>>> best ones are > >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably > >>>> discriminate > >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I > >>>> guess the best we > >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few > >>>> people as > >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a > >>>> security > >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >>>> On > >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM > >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if > >>>> any advocacy group > >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. > >>>> I fail to see how > >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website > >>>> accessibility. > >>>> Cordially, > >>>> John > >>>> > >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > >>>> > >>>> P.O. Box 6063 > >>>> > >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 > >>>> > >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 > >>>> > >>>> This communication contains information that may be > >>>> confidential and/or > >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > >>>> individual or > >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this > >>>> communication in > >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any > >>>> associated printed > >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any > >>>> computer. Please be > >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication > >>>> of this > >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in > >>>> criminal and/or > >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over > >>>> the Internet, > >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are > >>>> secure. If you are > >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use > >>>> email to > >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us > >>>> immediately at (352) > >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must > >>>> also be aware that email > >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through > >>>> circumstances beyond our > >>>> control. Thank you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >>>> On > >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM > >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hello everyone, > >>>> > >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be > >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? > >>>> > >>>> Peter Donahue > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "William ODonnell" > >>>> To: > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM > >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Good afternoon list members. > >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in > >>>> page has a different > >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter > >>>> in your log-in > >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the > >>>> two words shown > >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice > >>>> that says: "Please > >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have > >>>> trouble, just enter > >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a > >>>> word such as Saturday, > >>>> > >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you > >>>> do not enter in the > >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and > >>>> access your > >>>> account. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > >>>> r.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol > . > >>>> com > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version > >>>> of virus signature > >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> account info for blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 > 03:08:00 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/10/10 > 03:08:00 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 01:16:07 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:16:07 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Fields" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hi all, I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory toward anyone that way. Tracey Fields -------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donahue" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello George and everyone, > > I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required > for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in > the > email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out > there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Peter: > very good point. > However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. > Also, you have to understand different companies create different > structures, so it'll depend on that. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello Steve and everyone, >> >> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >> I >> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >> steps >> but doesn't shut anyone out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter, >> >> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >> getting >> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >> network >> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >> Because >> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >> their >> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >> that >> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >> limited >> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >> just >> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >> is >> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >> password >> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >> could >> be >> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >> suggest >> as an >> alternative. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Chris and everyone, >> >>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>> which >>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>> to >>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>> would >>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>> "Report >>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>> for >>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >> >>> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "William ODonnell" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> Fair point. >> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> >>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>> because they are, in >>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>> threat. The question >>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>> I can't think of >>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>> best ones are >>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>> discriminate >>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>> guess the best we >>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>> people as >>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>> security >>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>> any advocacy group >>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>> I fail to see how >>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>> accessibility. >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>> >>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>> >>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>> confidential and/or >>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>> individual or >>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>> communication in >>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>> associated printed >>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>> computer. Please be >>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>> of this >>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>> criminal and/or >>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>> the Internet, >>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>> secure. If you are >>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>> email to >>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>> immediately at (352) >>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>> also be aware that email >>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>> circumstances beyond our >>>> control. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>> page has a different >>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>> in your log-in >>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>> two words shown >>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>> that says: "Please >>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>> trouble, just enter >>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>> word such as Saturday, >>>> >>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>> do not enter in the >>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>> access your >>>> account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>> r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>> of virus signature >>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 01:46:17 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:46:17 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Peter: Aren't there such things as hearing aids? Etc. etc. etc. There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! At least, you're making it look that way. So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 11 01:52:11 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:52:11 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: Good evening, I am wondering if someone has a suggestion of a CAPTCHA that cannot be tricked by a robot, but that is accessible to * all * persons without assistance. If you come up with the concept I will write the code and release it under GPL 3 (open source license). I make this offer fully realizing that there is * no * way to create a verification system that cannot be tricked by robots that does not require human perception as part of the solution. Of course, as technology improves software will become better at perceiving like humans. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-10, at 9:46 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Peter: > Aren't there such things as hearing aids? > Etc. etc. etc. > There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. > Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! > At least, you're making it look that way. > > So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. > > > Jorge > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tracey Fields" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. There >> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the speech >> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given >> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get >> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha audible >> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >> toward anyone that way. >> >> Tracey Fields >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Peter Donahue" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >>> Hello George and everyone, >>> >>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >>> the >>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter: >>> very good point. >>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works well >>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed when >>>> I >>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>> steps >>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>> getting >>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>> network >>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>> Because >>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>> their >>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>>> that >>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>> limited >>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>> just >>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs may >>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>>> is >>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>> password >>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>> could >>>> be >>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we don't >>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>> suggest >>>> as an >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>> which >>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>>> to >>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>>> would >>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>> "Report >>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>>> for >>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fair point. >>>> >>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>> >>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>> best ones are >>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>> discriminate >>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>> people as >>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>> security >>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>> >>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>> >>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>> >>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>> individual or >>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>> communication in >>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>> associated printed >>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>> of this >>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>> email to >>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>> page has a different >>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>> two words shown >>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>> >>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>> access your >>>>>> account. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>> r.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 02:01:35 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:01:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <000701cb5155$4366ed40$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello George and everyone, Yes. I have a pear and they don't help. Earlier this year I underwent an extensive hearing evaluation including a CT scan to determine whether or not I would be a candidate for a surgical procedure known as a Stapedectomy. It was hoped that the surgery would restore my hearing in the right ear. After reviewing the results of the tests it was determined that due to the nature of my hearing loss having the procedure would be too risky. We tried a number of assistive listening devices but at the end of the day I found that none of them met my needs. But this misses the point. If we can develop a car interface to allow a blind person to drive independently we should be able to find a way to permit blind and deaf-blind individuals to deal with captchas audibly and tactually. I'm aware that the ranch boss is observing this thread and believe this herd needs to be driven to its proper pasture. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Peter: Aren't there such things as hearing aids? Etc. etc. etc. There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! At least, you're making it look that way. So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself clear. Jorge On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. > There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the > speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha > audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>> well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>> when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>> may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>> don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From dandrews at visi.com Sat Sep 11 02:02:08 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:02:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List Message-ID: A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. David Andrews, List Owner David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 02:07:39 2010 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:07:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Pete, you don't have to listen and retype the numbers when you use webvisum. all you do is wait a while then paste the result and keep on going. Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Hello everyone, > > If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be > accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a > hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind > including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tracey Fields" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hi all, > > I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. > There > is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the > speech > format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the > background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when > they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was > totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first > time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have given > up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never get > it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha > audible > and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory > toward anyone that way. > > Tracey Fields > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Peter Donahue" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > >> Hello George and everyone, >> >> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >> the >> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Peter: >> very good point. >> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >> structures, so it'll depend on that. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>> >>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>> well >>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>> when >>> I >>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>> steps >>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>> getting >>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>> network >>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>> Because >>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>> their >>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>> that >>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>> limited >>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>> just >>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>> may >>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>> is >>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>> password >>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>> could >>> be >>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>> don't >>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>> suggest >>> as an >>> alternative. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>> >>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>> which >>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>> to >>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>> would >>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>> "Report >>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the need >>>> for >>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> Fair point. >>> >>> >>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>> because they are, in >>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>> threat. The question >>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>> I can't think of >>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>> best ones are >>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>> discriminate >>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>> guess the best we >>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>> people as >>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>> security >>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>> any advocacy group >>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>> I fail to see how >>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>> accessibility. >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>> >>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>> confidential and/or >>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>> individual or >>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>> communication in >>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>> associated printed >>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>> computer. Please be >>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>> of this >>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>> criminal and/or >>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>> the Internet, >>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>> secure. If you are >>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>> email to >>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>> also be aware that email >>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>> page has a different >>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>> in your log-in >>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>> two words shown >>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>> that says: "Please >>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>> >>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>> do not enter in the >>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>> access your >>>>> account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>> r.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>> of virus signature >>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 02:08:32 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:08:32 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <00b301cb5156$3cc6f420$6601a8c0@server> George, Your statement is so outrageous that it is obscene. Perhaps you can purchase some glasses and then you can leave the blindness oriented lists since your problems will have been solved. Good luck Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Peter: > Aren't there such things as hearing aids? > Etc. etc. etc. > There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. > Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! > At least, you're making it look that way. > > So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make yourself > clear. > > > Jorge > > > > On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tracey Fields" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. >> There >> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the >> speech >> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have >> given >> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never >> get >> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha >> audible >> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >> toward anyone that way. >> >> Tracey Fields >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Peter Donahue" >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >>> Hello George and everyone, >>> >>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you in >>> the >>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are out >>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Peter: >>> very good point. >>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>>> well >>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>>> when >>>> I >>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>> steps >>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>> getting >>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>> network >>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>> Because >>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>> their >>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also think >>>> that >>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>> limited >>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>> just >>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>>> may >>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective scheme >>>> is >>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>> password >>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>> could >>>> be >>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>>> don't >>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>> suggest >>>> as an >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>> which >>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their customers >>>>> to >>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No one >>>>> would >>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>> "Report >>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the >>>>> need >>>>> for >>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fair point. >>>> >>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>> >>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>> best ones are >>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>> discriminate >>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>> people as >>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>> security >>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>> >>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>> >>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>> >>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>> individual or >>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>> communication in >>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>> associated printed >>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>> of this >>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>> email to >>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>> page has a different >>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>> two words shown >>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>> >>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>> access your >>>>>> account. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>> r.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From tom at tomladis.com Sat Sep 11 02:18:13 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <4EFB0E22A4424AD096D7EC5290DC0BE4@TMLDELLLAPTOP1> E J, I have been giving this some thought since my last detailed conversation on the subject. I have to admit that it is a very difficult subject and think that it would require having the test phrase or word, the player, and other related controls built into one control. Something like a Macromedia Flash control, but Macromedia is not my area of expertise and I will continue exploring the subject. For the hearing impaired, a braille output device might work to draw or write, depending on whether or not the user selects braille output or dot matrix like graphics. That would require additional hardware, but I am definitely not an expert in access for the hearing impaired. Thanks, Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good evening, > > I am wondering if someone has a suggestion of a CAPTCHA that cannot be > tricked by a robot, but that is accessible to * all * persons without > assistance. If you come up with the concept I will write the code and > release it under GPL 3 (open source license). > > I make this offer fully realizing that there is * no * way to create a > verification system that cannot be tricked by robots that does not require > human perception as part of the solution. Of course, as technology > improves software will become better at perceiving like humans. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-10, at 9:46 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Peter: >> Aren't there such things as hearing aids? >> Etc. etc. etc. >> There's a hundred and one flaws with your argument here. >> Don't take me harshly, but I'm getting tired of your constant wining! >> At least, you're making it look that way. >> >> So please, please, please, if you're not wining, then please make >> yourself clear. >> >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Sep 10, 2010, at 9:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> If you don't have a hearing impairment. These things need to be >>> accessible both audibly ant tactually to permit those with any kind of a >>> hearing impairment to manipulate them without assistance of any kind >>> including third party solutions as Web Vism and Salowna. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tracey Fields" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have been reading the comments all afternoon, and here is my input. >>> There >>> is nothing wrong with using the captcha as a form of security in the >>> speech >>> format if they would only play the letters/numbers without including the >>> background noise. It is almost impossible to make most of them out when >>> they have all of that interference. I had one the other day that was >>> totally clear, only the man reading the sequence, and I got it the first >>> time. That seems like a pretty simple fix to me. Many times I have >>> given >>> up because I have punched in several different sequences and can never >>> get >>> it correct because of the noise factor. Making the audible captcha >>> audible >>> and not garbled sounds pretty simple to me, and it is not discriminatory >>> toward anyone that way. >>> >>> Tracey Fields >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Peter Donahue" >>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:02 PM >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>>> Hello George and everyone, >>>> >>>> I've encountered a few sites where an email verification was required >>>> for signing up or subscribing. When you selected the link sent to you >>>> in >>>> the >>>> email message your signup was complete. Alternatives to captchas are >>>> out >>>> there. It's getting folks to use them that is the challenge before us. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:25 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter: >>>> very good point. >>>> However, this can't be used for signing up, not at first. >>>> Also, you have to understand different companies create different >>>> structures, so it'll depend on that. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Steve and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I've used many Web sites where one must reply to an email message in >>>>> order to activate a subscription, process and order, etc. This works >>>>> well >>>>> for me and I'm sure lots of others. This very procedure was followed >>>>> when >>>>> I >>>>> ordered my free NFB cane. No problem with that. It means a few extra >>>>> steps >>>>> but doesn't shut anyone out. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:42 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Peter, >>>>> >>>>> It just isn't that simple. Blocking the message may keep them from >>>>> getting >>>>> visibility, but it doesn't prevent such messages from bogging down the >>>>> network >>>>> and the ISP who was not able to prevent a robot from subscribing. >>>>> Because >>>>> there are sites out there who protect users by providing ways to hide >>>>> their >>>>> origin, it isn't simple to identify the problem. However, I also >>>>> think >>>>> that >>>>> CAPTCHAs are a very convenient answer and that their use has caused >>>>> limited >>>>> thought to be given to other approaches. The trouble is that answers >>>>> just >>>>> are not that obvious. As Chris said, certain other kinds of CAPTCHAs >>>>> may >>>>> discriminate against other types of developmental disabilities or even >>>>> people whose primary language is not that of whatever protective >>>>> scheme >>>>> is >>>>> developed. The idea of sending a text to a cellphone to provide a >>>>> password >>>>> is great if one happens to have a cellphone, but there are ways this >>>>> could >>>>> be >>>>> scripted around as well. I think this is where the struggle is, we >>>>> don't >>>>> like CAPTCHAs for good reason but don't have a real sense of what to >>>>> suggest >>>>> as an >>>>> alternative. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:27:26 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Chris and everyone, >>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to know what happened to spam filtering software or the >>>>>> diligence of host administrators to block email and IP addresses from >>>>>> which >>>>>> these bot messages come. If they enlisted the help of their >>>>>> customers >>>>>> to >>>>>> track this stuff down the use of captchas would be unnecessary. No >>>>>> one >>>>>> would >>>>>> be discriminated against. If more of their customers would use those >>>>>> "Report >>>>>> Abuse" links it would go a long way to reducing or eliminating the >>>>>> need >>>>>> for >>>>>> this kind of junk on Web sites. All the best. >>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:49 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Fair point. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Chris Danielsen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> From: Chris Danielsen >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>>>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:42 AM >>>>>>> Do you mean the concept of captchas >>>>>>> in general, or visual captchas? I think >>>>>>> advocacy groups have steered clear of opposing captchas >>>>>>> because they are, in >>>>>>> fact, a legitimate security mechanism to prevent a real >>>>>>> threat. The question >>>>>>> is how they should be designed. This is problematic because >>>>>>> I can't think of >>>>>>> a captcha that doesn't discriminate against somebody. The >>>>>>> best ones are >>>>>>> probably the simple logic puzzles, but even those probably >>>>>>> discriminate >>>>>>> against certain people with developmental disabilities. I >>>>>>> guess the best we >>>>>>> can hope for is a captcha that discriminates against as few >>>>>>> people as >>>>>>> possible, or, perhaps in the future, someone will invent a >>>>>>> security >>>>>>> mechanism that makes them unnecessary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of John Ramsey >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:05 PM >>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't have the answer to that one, but I am curious if >>>>>>> any advocacy group >>>>>>> has considered a cause of action because of these captias. >>>>>>> I fail to see how >>>>>>> they don't offend all of the recent cases regarding website >>>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>>> Cordially, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P.O. Box 6063 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This communication contains information that may be >>>>>>> confidential and/or >>>>>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>>>>>> individual or >>>>>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this >>>>>>> communication in >>>>>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any >>>>>>> associated printed >>>>>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any >>>>>>> computer. Please be >>>>>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication >>>>>>> of this >>>>>>> communication or the information it contains may result in >>>>>>> criminal and/or >>>>>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over >>>>>>> the Internet, >>>>>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are >>>>>>> secure. If you are >>>>>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use >>>>>>> email to >>>>>>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us >>>>>>> immediately at (352) >>>>>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must >>>>>>> also be aware that email >>>>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through >>>>>>> circumstances beyond our >>>>>>> control. Thank you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:42 PM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So how can this new fangled audio captcha be >>>>>>> accessed by the deaf-blind? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "William ODonnell" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 3:17 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon list members. >>>>>>> I would like to up-date you on Linkedin. The log-in >>>>>>> page has a different >>>>>>> Captcha that works and is accessible. Once you enter >>>>>>> in your log-in >>>>>>> information, a page comes up and says: "please enter the >>>>>>> two words shown >>>>>>> above." The audio link comes up with a clear voice >>>>>>> that says: "Please >>>>>>> enter the following words. Do not worry if you have >>>>>>> trouble, just enter >>>>>>> your best Guess. You will here a number IE 5, then a >>>>>>> word such as Saturday, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> then a number like 8 and then a word of less. If you >>>>>>> do not enter in the >>>>>>> numbers, you can still move forward to the next page and >>>>>>> access your >>>>>>> account. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>>>>>> r.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version >>>>>>> of virus signature >>>>>>> database 5439 (20100910) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account info for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 02:17:55 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 22:17:55 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21EEC491-D89E-41D5-BCD3-73DE38A1A895@mac.com> Thanks David. On Sep 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, David Andrews wrote: > A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. > > David Andrews, List Owner > > > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Sep 11 20:51:27 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:51:27 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> Message-ID: <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Hello Mr. Zufelt: Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 21:03:07 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:03:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Message-ID: Mr. Olusegun: Please give me any info you have on this security measure. I'm trying to implament something accessible on my site, and I can only find the recaptcha. Thanks. Jorge On Sep 11, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. wrote: > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 21:08:17 2010 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:08:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> Message-ID: <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: Hello Mr. Zufelt: Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins used in the United States. In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I DID NOT have to use any audio. This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the time. To be succinct, I detest them! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Sep 11 21:14:49 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:14:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Peter: You can't sue them. Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. Jorge On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge > to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a > good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to > action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet > infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring > it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this > off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins > used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the > Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated > and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ > THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I > DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED > audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but > those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the > time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sat Sep 11 22:42:02 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:42:02 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com> <001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC> <003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com> <61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Peter: > You can't sue them. > Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. > > Jorge > > > > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >> >> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >> used in the United States. >> >> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >> DID NOT have to use any audio. >> >> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 12 00:40:59 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:59 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd> <000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <001301cb5213$2bf1bc30$6601a8c0@server> Hello Peter, Actually I have been considering such a suit, but I am currently swamped. Such a suit would have the best hope of success in California. Are you by chance located in California? Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." ; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good afternoon everyone, > > It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge > to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps > a > good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to > action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects > Internet > infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is > bring > it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this > off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > > Hello Mr. Zufelt: > > Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins > used in the United States. > > In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the > Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is > generated > and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ > THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and > I > DID NOT have to use any audio. > > This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED > audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but > those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of > the > time. To be succinct, I detest them! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:36:14 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 01:36:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable >accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue >burden on the respondent in a human rights action. > > So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA > available, I would argue that they should make both available as a > reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. > However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet > users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in > my opinion, constitute an undue burden. > > HTH, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Peter: >> You can't sue them. >> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint >> of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such >> particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it >> wouldn't be legally possible. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon everyone, >>> >>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal >>> challenge >>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. >>> Perhaps a >>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects >>> Internet >>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is >>> bring >>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>> >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>> >>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the >>> coins >>> used in the United States. >>> >>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is >>> generated >>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to >>> READ >>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, >>> and I >>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>> >>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the >>> GARBLED >>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of >>> the >>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Olusegun >>> Denver, Colorado >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 07:48:56 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 03:48:56 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Good evening Mark, I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification possible. Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. > > Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? > > I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. > > We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >> >> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >> >> HTH, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Peter: >>> You can't sue them. >>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> >>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>> >>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>> >>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >>>> used in the United States. >>>> >>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>> >>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Olusegun >>>> Denver, Colorado >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 08:18:17 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 02:18:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Hello Everett, Your exact words were However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Undo hardship does not equal impossible. It may be impossible if we are thinking in terms of a single solution, but a multi-pronged approach is certainly possible, though it may be, and I'm not saying it is, cost prohibitive for some. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > Good evening Mark, > > I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am > suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an > undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification > possible. > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > >> The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be >> implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every >> human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering >> the information. >> >> Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio >> option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is >> necessary without constituting an undo hardship? >> >> I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the >> larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable >> accommodation. >> >> We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't >> out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >> >> >>> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable >>> accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue >>> burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >>> >>> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA >>> available, I would argue that they should make both available as a >>> reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. >>> However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * >>> Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, >>> it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Everett Zufelt >>> http://zufelt.ca >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter >>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>> >>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>> Peter: >>>> You can't sue them. >>>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the >>>> standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for >>>> such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but >>>> it wouldn't be legally possible. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>> >>>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal >>>>> challenge >>>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. >>>>> Perhaps a >>>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects >>>>> Internet >>>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is >>>>> bring >>>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates >>>>> LTD, Inc." >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>>> >>>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the >>>>> coins >>>>> used in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is >>>>> generated >>>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to >>>>> READ >>>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, >>>>> and I >>>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>>> >>>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the >>>>> GARBLED >>>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; >>>>> but >>>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent >>>>> of the >>>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Olusegun >>>>> Denver, Colorado >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 08:26:44 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 04:26:44 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb512d$3f759600$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><90D8144F-4FEA-434B-BDD5-C13FB2B11140@mac.com><001901cb5133$e09bcd00$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><20CBDFA2D6F34662B52BFD4A624F34FF@OwnerPC><003701cb514e$e98704f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><4C1DDA7F-1C82-4A2B-9AE9-B545DCCF1888@mac.com><61CD73AFAFF24E7D88B4A246CD2C7C03@valtd><000a01cb51f5$753de8a0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9ED983ED-7C0D-4F3B-B16D-94FEECB7010A@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Good evening, I suppose I was talking about a technology solution, not requiring human resources. Thanks for noticing this and correcting me :) Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 4:18 AM, Marc Workman wrote: > Hello Everett, > > Your exact words were > > However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. > > Undo hardship does not equal impossible. It may be impossible if we are thinking in terms of a single solution, but a multi-pronged approach is certainly possible, though it may be, and I'm not saying it is, cost prohibitive for some. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: > > >> Good evening Mark, >> >> I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a single solution, but I am suggesting that, as you have stated, there are cases where it would be an undue burden to implement all solutions required to make the verification possible. >> >> Thanks, >> Everett Zufelt >> http://zufelt.ca >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >> >> >> >> On 2010-09-12, at 3:36 AM, Marc Workman wrote: >> >>> The mistake here seems to be in thinking that a single solution has to be implemented. There probably is no single solution that will allow every human being, and no computer, to varify that an actual person is entering the information. >>> >>> Why not have several options? Why not have a visual option, an audio option, a logic option, a phone in option, and any other option that is necessary without constituting an undo hardship? >>> >>> I realize that for some companies this would be burdensome, but for the larger companies, this is simply a matter of providing a reasonable accommodation. >>> >>> We need to stop thinking in terms of a single solution. It just isn't out there, but this doesn't mean a multi-pronged approach won't work. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>> >>> >>>> I have to agree here. In canada we have the concept of reasonable accommodation, providing a reasonable accommodation cannot be an undue burden on the respondent in a human rights action. >>>> >>>> So, if a site were only making an audio, or only a visual, CAPTCHA available, I would argue that they should make both available as a reasonable accommodation. This would likely not be an undue burden. However, ensuring that their security mechanism works for * all * Internet users, and still provides security, is impossible. Therefore, it would, in my opinion, constitute an undue burden. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>> Everett Zufelt >>>> http://zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter >>>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt >>>> >>>> View my LinkedIn Profile >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-11, at 5:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>>> Peter: >>>>> You can't sue them. >>>>> Its a security mesure that fits the greater majority--from the standpoint of someone who studies law closely, you cannot sue them for such particular things. Not saying weather you're right or wrong, but it wouldn't be legally possible. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> It has been pointed out that so far no one has issued a legal challenge >>>>>> to the use of CAPTCHAS and the accessibility problems they cause. Perhaps a >>>>>> good law suit is just what the doctor ordered to spur developers in to >>>>>> action to create new methods of spam and bot control that protects Internet >>>>>> infrastructures while insuring accessibility for all. All I can say is bring >>>>>> it on! I also wish to apologies to Scott, David and others for this >>>>>> off-topic thread. All the best for a great weekend. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] UpDate on Linkedin website: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Mr. Zufelt: >>>>>> >>>>>> Here in Denver, we have the U.S. Mint that prints virtually all the coins >>>>>> used in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order to take a tour of the Mint, one has to schedule a date on the >>>>>> Mint's website. The last few I have scheduled, a random number is generated >>>>>> and I was asked to enter the number into an edit box. I was able to READ >>>>>> THE GENERATED NUMBER for myself without assistance from a third party, and I >>>>>> DID NOT have to use any audio. >>>>>> >>>>>> This type of CAPTCHA is, in my view, far more accessible than the GARBLED >>>>>> audio types I have had to deal with. No, I am NOT HEARING IMPAIRED; but >>>>>> those GARBLED AUDIO thingies can be a ROYAL pain one million percent of the >>>>>> time. To be succinct, I detest them! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> Olusegun >>>>>> Denver, Colorado >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From tom at tomladis.com Sun Sep 12 15:16:46 2010 From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:16:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List References: Message-ID: Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? Tom Ladis ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List >A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the >discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the >Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick >to the law and blindness. > > David Andrews, List Owner > > > > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com > Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > From lists at zufelt.ca Sun Sep 12 20:19:53 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:19:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> I'm not a member of NFB and I'm unfamiliar with practices and procedure. When NFB becomes involved in such actions does it first determine if members are supportive, and how does it so do? Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-12, at 11:16 AM, Tom Ladis wrote: > Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. > > We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. > > > > Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. > > Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? > > > Tom Ladis > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List > > >> A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. >> >> David Andrews, List Owner >> >> >> >> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Sep 12 20:54:27 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:54:27 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List In-Reply-To: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> References: <1EC2D416-F623-4BBF-A60E-CF858F91B7A4@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <1FC02694-441D-469D-BF18-C14B74C69991@mac.com> Basically, a resolution must be made regarding CAPTCHAs. Then, it goes to the resolution board at general convention, and they do a recommending vote. Then its presented to the general session, and stated weather "board reccommends pass". And it goes to a full NFB-membership up or down vote. If aprooved, that becomes policy. Then the NFB can do as it sees fit within that policy. Jorge On Sep 12, 2010, at 4:19 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: > I'm not a member of NFB and I'm unfamiliar with practices and procedure. When NFB becomes involved in such actions does it first determine if members are supportive, and how does it so do? > > Thanks, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-12, at 11:16 AM, Tom Ladis wrote: > >> Hello. I am not a lawyer yet, but think that someone who is and has the energy to file actions against a few of the largest offenders, such as LinkedIn, Home Depot, Google(Gmail), CraigsList, and others, would make a huge difference for the blind community. I will talk with Judge Pomaro and Equip For Equality here in Chicago about the subject. >> >> We can discuss the technical details in the blind programmers or blind webbers groups. >> >> >> >> Would we be able to file a federal action since these companies are global? If necessary, we can find brick and mortars to approach about changing their system, and that may cause change. >> >> Also, would NFB be willing to become involved? >> >> >> Tom Ladis >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:02 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Purpose of List >> >> >>> A reminder to everybody -- this is the Blind Law list. It is not for the discussion of the merits, or lack thereof for CAPTCHA's, for debating the Blind Driver Challenge etc. Please take those topics elsewhere and stick to the law and blindness. >>> >>> David Andrews, List Owner >>> >>> >>> >>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 21:18:43 2010 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [blindlaw] update on Linkedin: Message-ID: <700379.38406.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those loging in to linked in and dealing with the audio captchas, remember to spell out the actual numbers rather than entering in the absolute values. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Sep 13 17:57:40 2010 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:57:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] sad news Message-ID: I have received word that one of our long time members, Ron Williamitis, has passed away. Apparently, he had a stroke or heart attack yesterday. Please keep his wife, Debbie, and his family in your thoughts and prayers. I will pass on more details as I have them. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 13 18:46:32 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:46:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Washington State PTA government relations position Message-ID: WSPTA GOVERNMENT RELATIONS COORDINATOR POSITION HAS BEEN POSTED TO THE WEBSITE Please pass the word on to those who might be interested. http://www.wastatepta.org/about_us/jobs.html From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Sep 14 18:43:25 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:43:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] K&L Gates -- West Coast Lateral Openings - Ref#38883681 Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Black Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:44 AM To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle Job Postings Subject: [mamas_jobs] FW: K&L Gates -- West Coast Lateral Openings - Ref#38883681 Rachel Black posted: K&L Gates LLP currently has several lateral associate openings, located along the west coast. Palo Alto Patent Associate The Palo Alto office seeks a patent attorney or patent agent with 3-6 years patent prosecution experience to join its Intellectual Property practice. Applicant must be admitted to practice in California and before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Applicant should have a strong scientific background, advanced degree preferred as is familiarity with technologies associated with cleantech clients (e.g. solar energy, wind power, energy storage, alternative fuels, water purification). Preferred technical degrees include engineering, physics, chemistry, and materials science. We require outstanding credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills, and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Ability to develop client-focused solutions in an environment of rapid change is desirable. The Palo Alto office offers candidates the opportunity to practice as part of a large international law firm with the informality and collegiality of a smaller office. San Francisco Patent Litigation Associate The San Francisco office seeks an associate with 1-2 years patent litigation experience to join its Intellectual Property Litigation practice. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in California. A science or engineering degree, USPTO admission and Chinese language skills are preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Patent Litigation Associate The San Francisco office seeks an associate with 4-6 years patent litigation experience to join its Intellectual Property Litigation practice. The successful candidate must demonstrate the capability to conduct advanced level discovery and motion practice independently in patent litigation matters. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in California. A science or engineering degree, USPTO admission and Chinese language skills are preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Seattle Appellate Litigation Associate The Seattle office seeks an associate with 4-5 years experience to join its Appellate, Constitutional and Governmental Litigation practice. Applicants with prior deposition, discovery, and motion practice experience are sought to assume responsibility in an active and diverse federal and state court litigation practice. Appellate practice and federal clerkship experience preferred. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent writing and analytical skills as well as outstanding oral communication skills, and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. Ability to develop client-focused solutions in an environment of rapid change is desirable. Applicants must be licensed in Washington. Spokane Commercial Litigation Associate The Spokane office seeks an associate with 3-4 years experience to join its Commercial Disputes practice. Applicants must have prior general litigation experience and be licensed in Washington. We require outstanding academic credentials, excellent oral and written communication skills and a commitment to providing the highest quality client service. Demonstrated ability to work independently and as part of a team; will work closely with experienced lawyers who will provide active mentoring and opportunities to assume increasing levels of responsibility and client contact. Prior experience in a sophisticated law firm practice preferred. The Spokane office offers candidates the opportunity to practice as part of a large international law firm with the informality and collegiality of a smaller office. APPLICATION PROCESS * Qualified candidates should apply online at: https://lawjobs.klgates.com/(S(audqj4rw2ifu1a55c0hzzp45))/default.aspx?j ob=ATT * Please contact Dana Mills with questions (dana.mills at klgates.com) Dana Mills Senior Legal Recruiting Coordinator K&L Gates LLP 925 4th Avenue, Suite 2900 Seattle, WA 98104 Direct: 206.370.5744 E-mail: dana.mills at klgates.com Website: www.klgates.com Add your comments online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/38883681?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= ________________________________________ You received this email because you (noel.nightingale at ed.gov) are a member of the BigTent group MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle. Visit this group on the Web: http://www.bigtent.com/group/mamas?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Unsubscribe or leave this group: https://www.bigtent.com/unsubscribe/11798303?key=RTH1WKRAxb4ofr8Ast9530lUyScFYXROCRZEGfVSC7M%3D&md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Terms of Use: https://www.bigtent.com/terms?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Privacy Policy: https://www.bigtent.com/privacy?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= Need help? https://www.bigtent.com/help?md=MTE3OTgzMDM= From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 13:33:15 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:33:15 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. Message-ID: <054801cb54da$8d6ee590$400110ac@GPD945> Hello there. I asked a question earlyer about guilty parties and what makes someone guilty or not guilty with an example and so far I haven't had a single response. I'm hoping that my email is just going to my junk email and I will have a response but I've noticed this with previous posts, no one comments well people can ask questions about accessible cellphones and the entire list sends out comments. Just wondering is all. Have a great day. Blaine From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 15 14:14:18 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:14:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. References: <054801cb54da$8d6ee590$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <011301cb54e0$49a775b0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Blaine, I didn't see the post you mentioned so please send it again. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:33 AM Subject: [blindlaw] I hope people are sending responses to my last question and they're not going to my junk email folder. > Hello there. > > I asked a question earlyer about guilty parties and what makes someone > guilty or not guilty with an example and so far I haven't had a single > response. I'm hoping that my email is just going to my junk email and I > will > have a response but I've noticed this with previous posts, no one comments > well people can ask questions about accessible cellphones and the entire > list sends out comments. Just wondering is all. Have a great day. > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 14:15:10 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:15:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Message-ID: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 14:20:27 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:20:27 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From lists at zufelt.ca Wed Sep 15 14:32:47 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> Good afternoon, Note: I am not a lawyer. In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, that it may constitute a defence to assault. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that > one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 14:35:02 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <3A40E43C75364235A2DE3CA0AC33EE8E@Rufus> Right...--Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:20 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Hello there. I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing around? Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and play harder. Blaine _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 15 16:37:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:24 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:12 AM To: 'nawl at nawl.org'; 'ncai at ncai.org'; 'nedy at wyjlaw.com'; 'newmedia at ja.org'; 'Neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'Nancy W Patton'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'PALSD at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. 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Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 19:56:33 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:56:33 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> and what does inevitable mean? I went to dictionary.com and it said that there was nothing with that found. Thanks. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "E.J. Zufelt" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? Good afternoon, Note: I am not a lawyer. In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, that it may constitute a defence to assault. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that > one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From lists at zufelt.ca Wed Sep 15 20:15:14 2010 From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:15:14 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <060901cb54e1$25369520$400110ac@GPD945> <436C7425-A51B-4C18-B260-6550C258BD90@zufelt.ca> <068201cb5510$18f70270$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: Good evening, Common definitions of inevitable http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ainevitable&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Of course, you would really need to know how courts treat the concept, not what a dictionary definition of the word might be. HTH, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-09-15, at 3:56 PM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > and what does inevitable mean? I went to dictionary.com and it said that > there was nothing with that found. Thanks. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "E.J. Zufelt" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:32 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > Good afternoon, > > Note: I am not a lawyer. > > In Canada, where all criminal law is federal, the only defence to assault > (regardless of the target) is inevitable action or self defence. An action > provoked by intoxication is not considered to be inevitable, as it was not > inevitable that the defendant become intoxicated. > > I am not aware of any case law, but I would imagine that if the defendant > became intoxicated unwillingly, and if the act was seen to be inevitable, > that it may constitute a defence to assault. > > HTH, > Everett Zufelt > http://zufelt.ca > > Follow me on Twitter > http://twitter.com/ezufelt > > View my LinkedIn Profile > http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt > > > > On 2010-09-15, at 10:20 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > >> by the way, I'm not the person who did this. just wanted to clarify that >> one. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:15 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I >> know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer >> question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on >> your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last >> sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there >> is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of >> books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US >> Legal >> system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote >> in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a >> little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each >> other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As >> you're >> doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder >> and >> says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now >> there >> are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask >> you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing >> around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead >> they >> called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a >> very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, >> so >> I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a >> police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was >> wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any >> more >> information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can >> read >> up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work >> hard >> and play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Sep 15 21:40:32 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:40:32 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] intellectual law: looking for a lawyer Message-ID: <08855406-5C74-437D-9E3C-FB3CBAE07270@mac.com> Hello. I am looking for a lawyer in the field of intellectual property who is familiar with New York City and state law. I have some questions but they involve confidential material which I can't discuss on the list due to security and confidentiality reasons. Any lawyer on this list, please contact me off list. Thanks. Jorge Paez --- President And CEO: Paez Production Networks Please note: this message may contain confidential and/or classified information. Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to. If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media. From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Thu Sep 16 13:47:25 2010 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:47:25 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] {Disarmed} FW: Disability.gov Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights Update: U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Publishes Final Rules on Nondiscrimination in Public Accommodations, Commercial Facilities and State & Local Government Services Message-ID: <45909D82C38DBE408DA69213A6A4C7779BBBEB08CC@PL-EMSMB4.ees.hhs.gov> ________________________________ From: Disability.gov [mailto:disability.gov at service.govdelivery.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:35 AM To: Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) Subject: Disability.gov Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights Update: U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Publishes Final Rules on Nondiscrimination in Public Accommodations, Commercial Facilities and State & Local Government Services DOJ has issued final rules that revise (1) its Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) title II regulation covering nondiscrimination on the basis of disability in state and local government services; and (2) the regulation that implements title III of the ADA relating to nondiscrimination on the basis of disability by public accommodations and in commercial facilities. DOJ has issued these final rules to have accessibility standards that are consistent with the minimum guidelines and requirements issued by the Access Board. Both rules take effect March 15, 2011. For more information read the factsheets that describe the major changes in the rules revising title II and title III. For additional information about the updated design standards read Adoption of the 2010 Standards for Accessible Design. You are subscribed to Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) & Civil Rights for Disability.gov. For more information visit this link: http://www.disability.gov/civil_rights/laws_&_regulations/americans_with_disabilities_act size=2 width="100%" align=center> Update your subscriptions, modify your password or e-mail address, or stop subscriptions at any time on your Subscriber Preferences Page. You will need to use your e-mail address to log in. This service is provided to you at no charge by Disability.gov. If you have questions or problems with the subscription service, please contact support at govdelivery.com. Thank you for your interest in Disability.gov. [http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/sm-share-en.gif] GovDelivery, Inc. sending on behalf of Disability.gov * U.S. Department of Labor, Office of Disability Employment Policy * 200 Constitution Avenue, NW * Washington DC 20210 * 1-800-439-1420 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 14:34:22 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:34:22 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. There are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from many states and the Federal system. chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Sep 20 16:11:00 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:11:00 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the general side as a "Laymen?" Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. There are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from many states and the Federal system. chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Hello there. > > I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I > know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer > question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on > your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last > sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended areas. > the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be > interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if there > is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles of > books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US > Legal > system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I wrote > in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being a > little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each > other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As > you're > doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder > and > says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now > there > are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender ask > you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing > around? > Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead > they > called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is a > very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, > so > I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a > police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was > wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any > more > information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can > read > up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work > hard > and play harder. > > Blaine > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 16:57:56 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:57:56 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot that there is a section for law students. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you consider > me > joining the federal side of this website or just the general side as a > "Laymen?" > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. > There > are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals with > various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal Professionals > section which has access to the specific statutes and much case law from > many states and the Federal system. > chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this list? I >> know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's a one answer >> question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might have a good case on >> your hands then what kinds of questions can you ask on here? The last >> sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had a lot of open ended >> areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >> there >> is a website that can give me general laws about their state, or titles >> of >> books that people can pick up to learn about different areas of the US >> Legal >> system, I'd be interested in learning about them. the sinario that I >> wrote >> in about was you and a friend are at a bar having a few drinks and being >> a >> little foolish. You start by joking around and you start punching each >> other, not full out but a playful come on give it to me attitude. As >> you're >> doing this a police officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder >> and >> says "Okay you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now >> there >> are a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >> ask >> you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop playing >> around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar instead >> they >> called the police right away? How much alcohol had you consumed? This is >> a >> very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot in my age group, 18-25, >> so >> I'm always curious with what my rights are if I'm ever that drunk that a >> police officer has to be called. You dont' have to ansewr this just was >> wondering what, in your state, would you be guilty and if there is any >> more >> information needed to explain yourself if there is a website that I can >> read >> up on it more that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work >> hard >> and play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Sep 20 18:02:59 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:02:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945> <003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945> <00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> Message-ID: <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> Is there a cost required to sign up for this or is it free? If there is a cost how much am I looking for either annually or Monthly? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: September-20-10 10:58 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot that there is a section for law students. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you > consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the > general side as a "Laymen?" > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > > if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. > There > are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals > with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal > Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and > much case law from many states and the Federal system. > chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Hello there. >> >> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this >> list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's >> a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might >> have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you >> ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had >> a lot of open ended areas. >> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >> there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, >> or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different >> areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about >> them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a >> bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by >> joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a >> playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police >> officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay >> you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are >> a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >> ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop >> playing around? >> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar >> instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you >> consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot >> in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are >> if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You >> dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, >> would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to >> explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more >> that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and >> play harder. >> >> Blaine >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Sep 20 19:19:26 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:19:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom Message-ID: Dear All: Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to hear the screen reader you have on your computer? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Shannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 19:58:06 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:58:06 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? In-Reply-To: <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> References: <05d401cb54e0$686a5e40$400110ac@GPD945><003f01cb58de$6af77f60$400110ac@GPD945><00611DCA7A604767A8B5F08FFDC0877B@spike> <53EBBBF6A31F4BF3BAE42895B81BA57A@BlainePC> Message-ID: Its free to sign up and use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > Is there a cost required to sign up for this or is it free? If there is a > cost how much am I looking for either annually or Monthly? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: September-20-10 10:58 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > If you are doing research you could benefit from the legal professionals > part. Actually once you sign up you can access all of it. I also forgot > that > there is a section for law students. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? > > >> Chuck. As a student who is hoping to attend Law school would you >> consider me joining the federal side of this website or just the >> general side as a "Laymen?" >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 8:34 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >> if you ar not familiar with it you might find www.findlaw.com helpful. >> There >> are essentially two sections one for the general public which deals >> with various of the law for laymen and the Findlaw for Legal >> Professionals section which has access to the specific statutes and >> much case law from many states and the Federal system. >> chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:15 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] What kinds of questions can you ask on this list? >> >> >>> Hello there. >>> >>> I was wondering what kinds of questions a person can ask on this >>> list? I know people don't want to give free legal advice but if it's >>> a one answer question like I'd seek a lawyer or I think you might >>> have a good case on your hands then what kinds of questions can you >>> ask on here? The last sinario that I sent, after looking it over, had >>> a lot of open ended areas. >>> the original question, this was in a Canadian Law class but would be >>> interesting to find out a little about how other states do things if >>> there is a website that can give me general laws about their state, >>> or titles of books that people can pick up to learn about different >>> areas of the US Legal system, I'd be interested in learning about >>> them. the sinario that I wrote in about was you and a friend are at a >>> bar having a few drinks and being a little foolish. You start by >>> joking around and you start punching each other, not full out but a >>> playful come on give it to me attitude. As you're doing this a police >>> officer comes up and puts his hand on your shoulder and says "Okay >>> you've asked for it" and you turn around and punch him. Now there are >>> a few things that come up with this. did the bouncer or bar tender >>> ask you to stop previously giving you ample opportunity to stop >>> playing around? >>> Why didn't the bouncer kick you and your friend out of the bar >>> instead they called the police right away? How much alcohol had you >>> consumed? This is a very interesting question as DUI's come up a lot >>> in my age group, 18-25, so I'm always curious with what my rights are >>> if I'm ever that drunk that a police officer has to be called. You >>> dont' have to ansewr this just was wondering what, in your state, >>> would you be guilty and if there is any more information needed to >>> explain yourself if there is a website that I can read up on it more >>> that would be greatly appreciated. Have a great day, work hard and >>> play harder. >>> >>> Blaine >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >>> sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche >> r%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s >> bcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Mon Sep 20 19:59:29 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:59:29 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: Message-ID: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past 5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I find them to be pretty useful. I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be secure connections. This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop screen. Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that what you have in your ear does "flash". No, that does not make you a flasher. OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all you need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never once been able to get a laptop to do that. I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get it installed properly again. Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: rumpole at roadrunner.com Hope that helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Dear All: > > > > Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to > hear the screen reader you have on your computer? > > > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 06:35:00 From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net Mon Sep 20 21:19:34 2010 From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:19:34 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access In-Reply-To: <1396EC6B323A463B922D4F129B95066D@valtd> References: <0044432BF5A34A00ABDFBBBBDEAEAA0E@14bd0130080a469> <1396EC6B323A463B922D4F129B95066D@valtd> Message-ID: All, This is such a belated response- but here it is- Verizon now offers a speech accessible cell phone, the "Haven" that uses Talks speech software. This is not a PDA, it is a cell phone, thus there is no additional charge for internet, e-mail etc. FINALLY!! Keep having fun! Cathryn (&Abby) -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access Hi Cathryn: MobileSpeak, the competition for cell phone screen reader, will also work on the HTC Ozone if you choose to stay with Verizon. Aside from these, there are several mostly Nokia phones that Talks can run on. Here are a few: N85, N86, 6120 Classic, E65, E66, E61I, N95, N96, ETC. I hear that the new Talks5 soon to be released will even work on Nokia Touch Screen phones. Please note that Nokia phones use GSM technology; if you choose a Nokia phone, you will be stuck with either AT&T or T-Mobile for the most part. It is my understanding that the HTC Ozone supports both GSM and CDMA platforms; with this phone, you can still keep Verizon if that is your preference. In the event that you need to use the KNFB Reader, this product DOES NOT currently work on any phones running Windows Mobile operating systems. It works primarily on Nokia phones such as the N86, N82, and 6120 Classic to mention a few. To learn more about different phones that you can use with a screen reader, please consider subscribing to the Blind Phones List using the address below: blindphones-subscribe at mosenexplosion.com Hope the foregoing has been helpful. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%4 0verizon.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10 06:32:00 From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 22:38:19 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:38:19 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> Hello Ross, Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you have liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past >5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >find them to be pretty useful. > I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. > About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start > using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But > they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be > secure connections. > This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry > about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick > search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure > nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop > screen. > Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that > does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that > what you have in your ear does "flash". > No, that does not make you a flasher. > OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not > constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It > all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. > One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all you > need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will > recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never > once been able to get a laptop to do that. > I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have > undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time > it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get > it installed properly again. > Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. > IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: > rumpole at roadrunner.com > Hope that helps. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >> Dear All: >> >> >> >> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to >> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >> >> >> >> Any help is greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 > 06:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From lmendez at twcny.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:52:48 2010 From: lmendez at twcny.rr.com (Luis Mendez) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:52:48 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I heard good reviews about the Eclipse by Plantronics. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 20, 2010, at 3:19 PM, "Shannon Geihsler" wrote: > Dear All: > > > > Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to > hear the screen reader you have on your computer? > > > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez%40twcny.rr.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Sep 21 17:46:59 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:46:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] The Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid position Message-ID: Please arrow down to find the position announcement for the Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid. From: Banjo, Akinyemi - ODEP [mailto:banjo.akinyemi at dol.gov] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 8:57 AM Subject: Please disseminate: Free webcast and Position Announcements Dear Colleagues- The OmniGov Training Institute is conducting a free webcast on Federal Hiring Reform Initiatives. Detail information below: Federal Hiring Reform Initiatives Webcast PeopleAdmin will be hosting a Hiring Reform Webcast at 2:00pm Eastern Time on Tuesday, September 28th. Angela Bailey from the Office Personnel Management will be presenting along with PeopleAdmin and Omnigov on new hiring reforms and strategies that will yield better candidates for your agency! Here is the link to register https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/909877090 Overview New hiring reforms announced in May will place more responsibility and requirements on hiring managers. Expectations are for managers to work more closely with HR, including partnering on evaluation and assessment tools and strategies that will yield better candidates. Also, managers will be measured on ensuring new employees have a "successful transition into Federal service". How You Will Benefit * Understand more thoroughly new responsibilities for managers in the hiring process * Improve skills in writing, job announcements, choosing assessment instruments, using category rating and interviewing techniques * Learn about successful on-boarding practices that can be adapted for your agency Who Should Attend Federal managers who expect to hire in the next six to twelve months. http://www.peopleadmin.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=498&mgs1=bfa62emAPf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Position Announcements. Below is the announcement link for the Department of Defence CAP Technology Evaluation Center (CAPTEC) Program Analyst, GS-0343-14 position. The announcement opened on 9/20 and is scheduled to close on 10/4. Please post/share this announcement with your colleagues. http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?OPMControl=2038321 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) is looking to use the Schedule A hiring authority to fill a vacancy position for an EEO Specialist. We are looking for someone interested in assisting in progressing the Agency's EEO and Diversity related programs. The hired candidate would work collaboratively with CMS management, employees, applicants, human resources officials and advocacy groups on issues affecting diversity and inclusion within the CMS workforce. Interested candidates should have a strong background in data analysis, writing, outreach, and program development. Interested applicants should email a resume to the address below. Stacey L. Bryson Team Lead Office of Equal Opportunity and Civil Rights Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services Department of Health & Human Services 7500 Security Blvd., Mail Stop: N2-22-16 Baltimore, MD. 21244 Tel: 410-786-7201 Fax: 410-786-9549 Email: sbryson at cms.hhs.gov ------------------------- Akinyemi Banjo Policy Advisor U.S. Department of Labor Office of Disability Employment Policy 200 Constitution Ave., NW; S-1011 Washington, DC 20210 Phone: 202-693-7919 Web: http://www.dol.gov/odep/ From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Sep 21 18:03:15 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:03:15 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901> <058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <56742010526E4680AEDFE9722E6BD58F@none8a46117901> Hello Dennis: The two blue tooth ear pieces I have are both JABRA makes. One is a JABRA 960, and that one is pretty old. I don't think you can buy them any more - that one has a batterry life of about 4 hours. Messes me up when I'm trying to work all day in the office, It means I need to plug it into the charger at lunch time or I will end up being without it later in the day and wearing a wired headset or listening to JAWS aloud all day. I do a lot of work by telephone and find the blue tooth wireless ear piece to be very handy. The JABRA 960 is a bit on the heavy side, for an earpiece that is, and is slightly larger than the newer ones that are out. Even the old one is less than the size of your ear and is not very obtrusive at all. The newer one I have, a BT LHGM is smaller and is lighter - and is very easy to wear and get used to and is less obtrusive. Remember, these things are pretty darn small to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about it much. These are the same blue tooth earpieces that you can use with your cell phone, so you have an idea how small they are. I would suggest that you check around your area in places like Staples office supply and ask to "see" a few of them. They all seem to come in a bubble pack, so I'd ask they pull one out for you. I have made it a practice to get the kind that has a CD ROM with them so that any software that might not already be on your computer, is available for loading. this avoids the online search to find and download the software from some other web site. Getting the darn things configured with your laptop is the trick, that is not remotely accessible. What you really need is a computer-savvy teen ager to help out. If you don't happen to have one of your own, they are easily found in such places as any computer store or can be very easily rented or loaned through friends who have one or two at home. I usually find blue tooth earpieces with a USB thing, less than the size of a thumb drive, that comes with the earpiece, and gets plugged in to one of my USB ports. I think they are antennas, but I'm not sure, all I know is that if I don't have that USB thing plugged in, it won't work right. I have paid between $150 and $400 for these items. They do range in price, and they change quickly, very quickly. My new, BT LHGM was bought 2 years ago and is already considered old. IT still works great, so I'm not in any hurry to get rid of it any time soon. So I'm kind of curious to know what is new that is out there now. One other thing, with JAWS, and I use version 10 these days, when a blue tooth device "connects" with your laptop, some devices will pull jaws in right away and you needn't do anything other than wait for it to kick in. Others, once you hear the connection sound, usually your default email receipt sound, you need to pop into jaws and change your sound card default. Don't panic about that, if you are using JAWS 10 like I am, pull JAWS up, tap U for utilities, then O for sound cards and then arrow up or down to see what kinds of sound cards are listed. If you have a blue tooth device that you've just turned on, one item listed there will be "Blue Tooth Device" listed right with the sound cards. If the blue tooth is not turned on, that "blue tooth device" item won't show in with the sound cards. I run XP home edition with JAWS 10, and after I'd had the blue tooth operate a few times, it began picking up JAWS automatically all by itself. Getting the blue tooth to kick in after you turn it on takes about 10 seconds. The oddest experience I've had with those earpieces is that sighted people think I'm on the telephone all the time. Using it as a simple earpiece is a new experience for those sighted people around you. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Hello Ross, > Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very > encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you > have > liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not > obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. > All the best, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >>I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the past >>5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >>find them to be pretty useful. >> I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. >> About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start >> using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But >> they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be >> secure connections. >> This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry >> about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing quick >> search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure >> nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop >> screen. >> Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that >> does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that >> what you have in your ear does "flash". >> No, that does not make you a flasher. >> OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not >> constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It >> all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. >> One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all >> you >> need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will >> recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never >> once been able to get a laptop to do that. >> I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have >> undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time >> it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get >> it installed properly again. >> Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. >> IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: >> rumpole at roadrunner.com >> Hope that helps. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Shannon Geihsler" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >> >> >>> Dear All: >>> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able to >>> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >>> >>> >>> >>> Any help is greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Shannon >>> >>> >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >>> Lubbock, TX 79401 >>> Phone: 763-3999 >>> Fax: 749-3752 >>> >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 >> 06:35:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 06:35:00 From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 03:47:41 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:47:41 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Message-ID: Good evening everyone! I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has any thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde with Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an exam. I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have Zoomtext on my laptop. Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any ideas, again, are welcome. Thanks, Kate -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From agtolentino at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 05:28:21 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:28:21 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be more contentious then. Best, Aser On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll wrote: > Good evening everyone! > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has any > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde with > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > exam. > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have Zoomtext > on my laptop. > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any ideas, > again, are welcome. > > Thanks, > Kate > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 12:52:45 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:52:45 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same thing with the Bar. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > Hi, > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > this > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > and could be more contentious then. > > Best, > Aser > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > wrote: > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > any > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > with > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to use > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this software > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > exam. > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > Zoomtext > > on my laptop. > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > ideas, > > again, are welcome. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > -- > > Kathryn CARROLL > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > 631-521-318 C > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Thu Sep 23 12:56:24 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:56:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: Message-ID: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Carroll" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same thing with the Bar. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > Hi, > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > this > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > and could be more contentious then. > > Best, > Aser > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > wrote: > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > any > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > with > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > use > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > software > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > exam. > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > Zoomtext > > on my laptop. > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > ideas, > > again, are welcome. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > -- > > Kathryn CARROLL > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > 631-521-318 C > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 13:45:10 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:45:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> Hi Blaine, I know of a number of blind law school graduates who kept up with their classmates and finished in the allotted 3 years, including my husband. It certainly can be done. Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > >> Hi, >> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> was >> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> this >> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >> and could be more contentious then. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> wrote: >> >> > Good evening everyone! >> > >> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >> any >> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > >> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> with >> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > use >> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > software >> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >> > exam. >> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> Zoomtext >> > on my laptop. >> > >> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> ideas, >> > again, are welcome. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Kate >> > >> > -- >> > Kathryn CARROLL >> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > 631-521-318 C >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:07:40 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:07:40 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <022801cb5b25$8b218b20$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: I certainly intend to finish in the usual three years, and I know many people who have. I do believe the typical Bar exam in the States is 2 days long. @ Sarah, to speak on what you mentioned, I was talking to a blind lawyer yesterday who did say that all exams while he was in law school were hand-written. So, there is a little bit of a new obstacle here with the new and changing exam technology. Kate On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Sarah Clark wrote: > Hi Blaine, > I know of a number of blind law school graduates who kept up with their > classmates and finished in the allotted 3 years, including my husband. It > certainly can be done. > > Sarah > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" < > b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net> > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Carroll" < >> carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >>> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >>> was >>> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >>> this >>> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >>> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >>> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >>> and could be more contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >>> > use >>> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > software >>> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >>> > exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >>> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >>> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-318 C From agtolentino at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:14:40 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:14:40 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: As I understand it, one reason law schools have so universally adopted ExamSoft and programs like it is to foster familiarity with the procedure, which is required if one wishes to take the bar exam using a computer (in CA at least). There are still some that handwrite their responses, though how they manage to keep up is beyond me. I did not press for use of an unsecured computer for either the written or multiple choice portions of the exam, but preferring to instead follow what seems to be the generally accepted reader/scribe approach with double time. One thing I learned (though I really hope I do not need to actually have to put it into practice myself) is that you should practice responding to the questions under the exact same conditions as you will have for the test. For example, I practiced performance tests by typing them out and referring to the case file and library on my computer; things obviously worked differently on the real test and some time was expended working out just how we could manage all the content with a separate reader and typist in the loop. The same of course applies to exams at school. Bar exams vary from state to state but I don't recall hearing of any lasting more than three days, whether they be consecutive or alternating again varying by state. I took the July bar over six days due to the double time. On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:56 AM, Blaine Deutscher wrote: > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it > was > > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > > this > > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > > and could be more contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > > use > > > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of > > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Sat Sep 25 02:49:51 2010 From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:49:51 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Blaine Deutscher To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater > > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it was > > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed > > this > > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My > > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a > > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar > > and could be more contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to > > > use > > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a user of > > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C > > > _______________________________________________ > > > bllaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > bllaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bllaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > bllaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 13:17:07 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:17:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because I had an excellent reader. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ray wayne Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Blaine Deutscher To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the > exact same thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > > > Hi, > > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of > > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three > > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the > > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to > > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school > > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue > > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more > > contentious then. > > > > Best, > > Aser > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll > > wrote: > > > > > Good evening everyone! > > > > > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If > > > anyone has > > any > > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. > > > > > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell > > > Latitutde > > with > > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have > > > to > > > use > > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this > > > software > > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows > > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an > > > exam. > > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school > > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have > > Zoomtext > > > on my laptop. > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a > > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) > > > problem? Any > > ideas, > > > again, are welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > -- > > > Kathryn CARROLL > > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ > > > bllaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > bllaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bllaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > bllaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% 40gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > bllaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 14:43:35 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:43:35 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an > accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because > I > had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >> > contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >> > > to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 14:46:16 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:46:16 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Message-ID: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during law school exams. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 17:28:04 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:28:04 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> References: <2EB2F1C6CE1E42A98BA62790CD481ECE@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <07FA8D84864549379E8AE4D200B0201F@StevePC> Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your own or have in a large firm? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at for > previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during law > school exams. > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>because I had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. >> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey >> cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable >> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with >> John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you >> decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>> does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>> > more contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>> > > have to use >>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > > software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > > for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% >> 40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath >> ryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche >> r%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny >> c.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c >> ox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From milicatrpevska at aol.com Sat Sep 25 19:16:19 2010 From: milicatrpevska at aol.com (Milica Trpevska) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:16:19 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers Message-ID: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Dear list members I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 19:18:49 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:18:49 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <07FA8D84864549379E8AE4D200B0201F@StevePC> Message-ID: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> I practice criminal law as a primary practice, but I ocassionally work in the family law arena. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your own or have in a large firm? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at >for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during >law school exams. > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>because I had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil >> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances >> beyond our control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two >>> day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam >>> or how does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the >>> four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they >>> are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>> > more contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing >>> > > them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >>> > > heard that this software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is >>> > > a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > > info for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino >> % >> 40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kat >> h >> ryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >> e >> r%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40n >> y >> c.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >> c >> ox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele > y%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: > 09/25/10 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Sat Sep 25 19:21:20 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers In-Reply-To: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I believe Stephanie is on this list. I was partially sighted when I took the LSAT a long time ago so I cannot be of much help. The key is to develop a strategy to memorize the order of the list so that you can eliminate as many wrong choices as possible. John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Milica Trpevska Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:16 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers Dear list members I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From taiablas at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 19:24:39 2010 From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:24:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT informational guide for blind test takers In-Reply-To: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2AFD44D21362-165C-15342@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi. I have ordered a magnetic board and letters from the NFB's Independence Market and am using it to prepare. I also ordered a textured board which can be used with plain paper and pencil to produce tactile drawings. I am hoping that these two devices will help with this section if I am permitted to bring them to the test. I have submitted my paperwork to the LSAC and am waiting to hear back. I too would be interested in getting a copy of the guide for blind test-takers. Tai On 9/25/10, Milica Trpevska wrote: > Dear list members > I am taking the LSAT in december and am struggling with the analitical > reasoning (logic games) section of the test. I heard that many blind > students used magnet boards and other non-visual techniques that I > haven't heard about. I have also come across a post on the internet > that a blind law school graduate, I believe it is Ms. Stephanie Enyart, > has prepared an informational guide for blind test takers in which she > gives some hints on some effective techniques used in the past. > > As any and all help would be greatly appreciated, I would kindly ask > you to bring up and share the techniques you used for this particular > section of the test. I would also kindly ask you to let me know how I > can get a hold of the informational guide for blind test takers which, > I am sure, has invaluable information and tips. Thank you for your > understanding and I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Milica > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com > From tlfields2 at charter.net Sat Sep 25 19:27:35 2010 From: tlfields2 at charter.net (Tracey Haynes) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:27:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> References: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> Message-ID: <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> Hi, I was not a law student but do Have a Master's degree, and I was always told that the law provides time and a half for vision impaired students on all college and standardized testing. Now, that could be the school's policy or it could have come down from higher powers. I am assuming it came from elsewhere, though, since it applied to standardized tests as well. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve P. Deeley" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:43 AM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >> accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >> because >> I >> had an excellent reader. >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or >> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or >> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication >> in >> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated >> printed >> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be >> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this >> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal >> and/or >> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >> email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of ray wayne >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too >> states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning >> and >> went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We >> loved it! Smile! >> Grumpy Old Blind Man >> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Blaine Deutscher >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>> does >> >>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >>> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >>> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >>> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will >>> say >>> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did >>> they >>> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is >>> there >>> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>> >>> Kate >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>> > contentious then. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Aser >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Good evening everyone! >>> > > >>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > > anyone has >>> > any >>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > > >>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > > Latitutde >>> > with >>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>> > > to >>> > > use >>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > > software >>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>> > > an >>> > > exam. >>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > > school >>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> > Zoomtext >>> > > on my laptop. >>> > > >>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > > problem? Any >>> > ideas, >>> > > again, are welcome. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks, >>> > > Kate >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>> > > bllaw mailing list >>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > > for >>> > > bllaw: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > bllaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > bllaw: >>> > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% >> 40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kathryn CARROLL >>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> 631-521-318 C >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa >> sktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bllaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >> om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net > From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 21:18:07 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:18:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> References: <8CE333860DD241A297DCDBA0B35B1122@StevePC> <9099F217844345A9AF3CA3B48771B40E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <630023B2529C422CBC4114B11ED3EA10@StevePC> It would be interesting to know how that figure was calculated and finalized.\ Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracey Haynes" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Hi, > > I was not a law student but do Have a Master's degree, and I was always > told > that the law provides time and a half for vision impaired students on all > college and standardized testing. Now, that could be the school's policy > or > it could have come down from higher powers. I am assuming it came from > elsewhere, though, since it applied to standardized tests as well. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:43 AM > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Ramsey" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >>>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>> accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>> because >>> I >>> had an excellent reader. >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or >>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or >>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication >>> in >>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated >>> printed >>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please >>> be >>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this >>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal >>> and/or >>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the >>> Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >>> email >>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >>> control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of ray wayne >>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too >>> states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning >>> and >>> went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We >>> loved it! Smile! >>> Grumpy Old Blind Man >>> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Blaine Deutscher >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >>>> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >>>> does >>> >>>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >>>> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >>>> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >>>> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will >>>> say >>>> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did >>>> they >>>> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is >>>> there >>>> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting >>>> for >>> the >>>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >>>> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>>> >>>> Kate >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi, >>>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>>> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>>> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>>> > contentious then. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Aser >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Good evening everyone! >>>> > > >>>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>>> > > anyone has >>>> > any >>>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>>> > > >>>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>>> > > Latitutde >>>> > with >>>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>>> > > to >>>> > > use >>>> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>>> > > software >>>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>>> > > an >>>> > > exam. >>>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>>> > > school >>>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>>> > Zoomtext >>>> > > on my laptop. >>>> > > >>>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >>>> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>>> > > problem? Any >>>> > ideas, >>>> > > again, are welcome. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks, >>>> > > Kate >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> > > bllaw mailing list >>>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > > for >>>> > > bllaw: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > bllaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > bllaw: >>>> > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% >>> 40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kathryn CARROLL >>>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> 631-521-318 C >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa >>> sktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 >> 02:34:00 >> > > > >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 >> 02:34:00 >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tlfields2%40charter.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sat Sep 25 21:19:07 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:19:07 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> References: <67215D1FBF06480696F08124F66B13D6@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <2125AE99332442D495D4B285D34EE3C9@StevePC> That is cool! I guess working in the criminal arena is quite interesting? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I practice criminal law as a primary practice, but I ocassionally work in > the family law arena. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Sounds reasonable.What type of law do you practice? Do you work on your > own or have in a large firm? > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Ramsey" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >>I requested the extra time and that was basically the amount arrived at >>for previous blind students. I also had the same amount of time during >>law school exams. >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >> >> P.O. Box 6063 >> >> Gainesville, FL 32627 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >> >> This communication contains information that may be confidential >> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. >> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey >> cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable >> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with >> John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you >> decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email >> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our >> control. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:44 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Good for you? How was the extra amount of time period arrived at? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Ramsey" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >>>I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >>>accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >>>because I had an excellent reader. >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. >>> >>> P.O. Box 6063 >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32627 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> Fax: (352) 240-6453 >>> >>> This communication contains information that may be confidential >>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the >>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received >>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and >>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic >>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized >>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the >>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil >>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, >>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are >>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to >>> communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) >>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that >>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances >>> beyond our control. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of ray wayne >>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>> >>> Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking >>> too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the >>> morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and >>> we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man >>> PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Blaine Deutscher >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 >>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two >>>> day process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam >>>> or how does >>> >>>> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >>>> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >>>> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >>>> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >>>> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >>>> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >>>> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >>>> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >>> the >>>> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the >>>> four courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they >>>> are. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kate Carroll" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >>>> exact same thing with the Bar. >>>> >>>> Kate >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi, >>>> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>>> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>>> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>>> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>>> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >>>> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >>>> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >>>> > more contentious then. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Aser >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Good evening everyone! >>>> > > >>>> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>>> > > anyone has >>>> > any >>>> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing >>>> > > them. >>>> > > >>>> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>>> > > Latitutde >>>> > with >>>> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >>>> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >>>> > > heard that this software >>>> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>>> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >>>> > > an >>>> > > exam. >>>> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>>> > > school >>>> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>>> > Zoomtext >>>> > > on my laptop. >>>> > > >>>> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is >>>> > > a user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>>> > > problem? Any >>>> > ideas, >>>> > > again, are welcome. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks, >>>> > > Kate >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Kathryn CARROLL >>>> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> > > bllaw mailing list >>>> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > > info for >>>> > > bllaw: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino >>> % >>> 40gmai >>> l.com >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > bllaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > for >>>> > bllaw: >>>> > >>>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kat >>> h >>> ryn.e% >>> 40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kathryn CARROLL >>>> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>>> 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >>> e >>> r%40sa >>> sktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bllaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> bllaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40n >>> y >>> c.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >>> c >>> ox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele >> y%40in >> sightbb.com >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: >> 09/25/10 02:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > 02:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 02:34:00 From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 11:51:06 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 07:51:06 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams References: Message-ID: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an > accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided because > I > had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or > legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication > in > error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed > materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be > aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this > communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or > civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, > John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are > uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to > communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) > 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that > email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >> > forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >> > will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >> > contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >> > > to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From joramsey at cox.net Sun Sep 26 14:13:06 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 10:13:06 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> RJ: Ordinarily a judge or special magistrate will hear those cases. Is your friend a Judge, or has been appointed as a special magistrate? Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email > messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Sep 26 16:08:09 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 12:08:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Fwd: [Legislative Alert- Urgent Action Needed Related to Modernization of the Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act References: Message-ID: <5929632E-DDF0-4064-A43F-DBE4244B4CA9@mac.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Hartle, Jesse" (by way of David Andrews ) > Date: September 24, 2010 4:12:11 PM EDT > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [Nyabs] Legislative Alert- Urgent Action Needed Related to Modernization of the Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act > Reply-To: New York Association of Blind Students Discussion List > > Fellow Federationists: > > Shortly before the August recess began, the new Javits-Wagner-O‚Day (JWOD) Act of 2010 (H.R. 5983) was introduced in the House of Representatives. This bill has been referred to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. > > I am asking that you review the list of Committee members below and, if your member of Congress appears on this list, please contact their office next week and let them know that the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) is opposed to the current draft of this legislation. > > As you know, the NFB has passed resolutions concerning the practice of paying less than minimum wage to disabled employees in sheltered workshop settings. The introduced bill was written without meaningful representation from the disability community, and does nothing to guarantee that blind employees in the JWOD program receive the minimum wage. We must let members of the Committee know that, if a bill is to be drafted that will impact the lives of blind people, we must be a stakeholder in these discussions; and if this legislation is to be passed, it must include provisions to ensure that the minimum wage will be paid to individuals working in the JWOD program. > > Below I have included contact information for each member of the Committee. You may be connected with any of these offices by calling the Capitol switchboard at (202) 225-3121. Thank you all for your attention to this important matter. Please contact me with any questions. > > Jesse M. Hartle > Government Programs Specialist > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, extension 2233 > E-mail: jhartle at nfb.org > > > House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform > > Bilbray, Brian P. (R-CA, 50th) > Staffer: Gary Kline > Office Phone: (202) 225-0508 > > Burton, Dan (R-IN, 5th) > Staffer: Mary Okeeffe > Office Phone: (202) 225-2276 > > Cao, Joseph (R-LA, 2nd) > Staffer: Cassie Alsfeld > Office Phone: (202) 225-6636 > > Chaffetz, Jason (R-UT, 3rd) > Staffer: Mike Jerman > Office Phone: (202) 225-7751 > > Chu, Judy (D-CA, 32nd) > Staffer: Amelia Wang > Office Phone: 225-5464 > > Clay, William Lacy (D-MO, 1st) > Staffer: Marvin Steele > Office Phone: (202) 225-2406 > > Connolly, Gerald E. (D-VA, 11th) > Staffer: Zack Fields > Office Phone: (202) 225-1492 > > Cooper, Jim (D-TN, 5th) > Staffer: Sam Reed > Office Phone: (202) 225-4311 > > Cuellar, Henry (D-TX, 28th) > Staffer: Shelly Amieva > Office Phone: (202) 225-1640 > > Cummings, Elijah E. (D-MD, 7th) > Staffer: Blair Hedgepeth > Office Phone: (202) 225-4741 > > Davis, Danny K. (D-IL, 7th) > Staffer: Yul Edwards > Office Phone: (202) 225-5006 > > Driehaus, Steve (D-OH, 1st) > Staffer: Aaron Wasserman > Office Phone: (202) 225-2216 > > Duncan, John J. Jr. (R-TN, 2nd) > Staffer: Scott Fischer > Office Phone: (202) 225-5435 > > Flake, Jeff (R-AZ, 6th) > Staffer: Sarah Krug > Office Phone: (202) 225-2635 > > Fortenberry, Jeff (R-NE, 1st) > Staffer: Alan Feyerherm > Office Phone: (202) 225-4806 > > Foster, Bill (D-IL, 14th) > Staffer: Matt Ploszek > Office Phone: (202) 225-2976 > > Hodes, Paul W. (D-NH, 2nd) > Staffer: Sarah Levin > Office Phone: (202) 225-5206 > > Issa, Darrell (R-CA, 49) (Ranking Member) > Staffer: Ashley Callen > Office Phone: 225-3906 > > Jordan, James D. (R-OH, 4th) > Staffer: Wesley Goodman > Office Phone: (202) 225-2676 > > Kanjorski, Paul E. (D-PA, 11th) > Staffer: John Latini > Office Phone: (202) 225-6511 > > Kaptur, Marcy (D-OH, 9th) > Staffer: Nathan Facey > Office Phone: (202) 225-4146 > > Kennedy, Patrick (D-RI, 1st) > Staffer: Daniel Murphy > Office Phone: (202) 225-4911 > > Kucinich, Dennis (D-OH, 1st) > Staffer: Diala Jadallah > Office Phone: 225-5871 > > Luetkemeyer, Blaine (R-MO, 9th) > Staffer: Dan Burgess > Office Phone: (202) 225-2956 > > Lynch, Stephen F. (D-MA, 9th) > Staffer: Bruce Fernandez > Office Phone: (202) 225-8273 > > Maloney, Carolyn B. (D-NY, 14th) > Staffer: Orly Isaacson > Office Phone: (202) 225-7944 > > McHenry, Patrick (R-NC, 10th) > Staffer: Alexis Rudakewych > Office Phone: (202) 225-2576 > > Mica, John L. (R-FL, 7th) > Staffer: Casey Brinck > Office Phone: (202) 225-4035 > > Murphy, Chris (D-CT, 5th) > Staffer: Jesse Young > Office Phone: (202) 225-4476 > > Norton, Eleanor Holmes (D-DC, Delegate) > Staffer: Robert White > Office Phone: (202) 225-8050 > > Quigley, Mike (D-IL, 5th) > Staffer: Robyn Russell > Office Phone: 225-4061 > > Schock, Aaron (R-IL, 18th) > Staffer: Mike Pasko > Office Phone: 225-6201 > > Shuster, Bill (R-PA, 9th) > Staffer: Maribeth Collins > Office Phone: (202) 225-2431 > > Speier, Jackie (D-CA, 12th) > Staffer: Josh Connolly > Office Phone: (202) 225-3531 > > Tierney, John F. (D-MA, 6th) > Staffer: Mckee Floyd > Office Phone: (202) 225-8020 > > Towns, Edolphus (D-NY, 10th) (Chairman) > Staffer: James Latoff > Office Phone: (202) 225-5936 > > Turner, Michael R. (R-OH, 3rd) > Staffer: Joseph Heaton > Office Phone: (202) 225-6465 > > Van Hollen, Chris Jr. (D-MD, 8th) > Staffer: Ken Cummings > Office Phone: (202) 225-5341 > > Watson, Diane E. (D-CA, 33rd) > Staffer: Jillian Schlotter > Office Phone: (202) 225-7084 > > Welch, Peter (D-VT, At Large) > Staffer: Calvin Garner > Office Phone: (202) 225-4115 > > Westmoreland, Lynn A. (R-GA, 3rd) > Staffer: Joe Lillis > Office Phone: (202) 225-5901 > > _______________________________________________ > Nyabs mailing list > Nyabs at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nyabs_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nyabs: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nyabs_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 27 06:27:53 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:27:53 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time as their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I have taken many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra time I very seldom actually needed to use it. At times this was quite a shock to professors. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day > process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how does > that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make > lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in > Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone > through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say > "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they > do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there > and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the > day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four > courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate Carroll" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact > same > thing with the Bar. > > Kate > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino > wrote: > >> Hi, >> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> was >> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> this >> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as a >> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the bar >> and could be more contentious then. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> wrote: >> >> > Good evening everyone! >> > >> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone has >> any >> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > >> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> with >> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > use >> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > software >> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >> > exam. >> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> Zoomtext >> > on my laptop. >> > >> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> ideas, >> > again, are welcome. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Kate >> > >> > -- >> > Kathryn CARROLL >> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > 631-521-318 C >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Kathryn CARROLL > St. John's University College of Law 2013 > 631-521-318 C > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Mon Sep 27 12:30:45 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:30:45 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> When I attended law school in 1978, I was not allowed to take the LSAT. However, I was not granted extra time for the exams. I guess they would have granted the extra time if I had requested it. No one offered the extra time. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time as > their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I have > taken > many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra time I very > seldom > actually needed to use it. At times this was quite a shock to professors. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >>> accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >>> was >>> not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >>> this >>> with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >>> advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as >>> a >>> testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the >>> bar >>> and could be more contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone >>> > has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >>> > use >>> > the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >>> > software >>> > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >>> > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during an >>> > exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >>> > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a user of >>> > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Sep 27 14:43:15 2010 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:43:15 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Changing Subject Line In-Reply-To: <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> References: <5316E4F6473F47E4AF4549FEBEEA98E0@hometwxakonvzn> <061773B448CD46A3B8EFF1918F68188F@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F606438786@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi All, Since I suspect all of us get more email than we would prefer, please remember to change the subject line when the discussion has changed. The below discussion was completely away from the listed subject line. It takes much longer to slog through a long string of notes to figure out what the discussion is about, and a simple change of subject line will help avoid having to spend all that extra time figuring it out. Sincerely, Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:13 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams RJ: Ordinarily a judge or special magistrate will hear those cases. Is your friend a Judge, or has been appointed as a special magistrate? Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. P.O. Box 6063 Gainesville, FL 32627 Phone: (352) 505-6642 Fax: (352) 240-6453 This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams John Who hears small claims cases in florida? A Friend of mine told the Florida supreme court gave her a cirtification in oorder to hear small claims cases. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ramsey" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >I had a two day bar exam and was granted time and a half as an >accommodation, but I did not actually use all of the time provided >because I had an excellent reader. > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A. > > P.O. Box 6063 > > Gainesville, FL 32627 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > Fax: (352) 240-6453 > > This communication contains information that may be confidential > and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and > destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic > material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized > disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the > information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. > Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey > cannot assure that the messages are secure. If you are uncomfortable > with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with > John Ramsey. Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you > decide not to use email. You must also be aware that email messages > may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our > control. Thank you. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of ray wayne > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking > too states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the > morning and went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and > we liked it! We loved it! Smile! Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does > >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to >> make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for > the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >> > greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >> > years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >> > software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >> > the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the >> > school forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. >> > The issue will come up again when you take the bar and could be >> > more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >> > > anyone has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >> > > Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will >> > > have to use the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have >> > > heard that this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and >> > > possibly the built-in Windows magnification program) from working >> > > if I attempt to use them during an exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >> > > school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now >> > > don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >> > > problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kath > ryn.e% > 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsche > r%40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > bllaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny > c.rr.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c > ox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksan defu r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From lmendez at twcny.rr.com Tue Sep 28 01:50:59 2010 From: lmendez at twcny.rr.com (L A Mendez) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:50:59 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <542DA1DB16B54E72B1D5801A507F8102@StevePC> Message-ID: <005401cb5eaf$999e0970$ccda1c50$@rr.com> The law school I attended required all exams to be turned in on an exam booklet so I used a reader/transcriber which did require extra time to get through the mechanics of getting the answers into the booklet. I did use a typewriter for the essay part of the New York bar exam and Braille to read the Multistate part of the exam. However, I did dictate the multiple choice answers to a transcriber who recorded them on the answer page. My most vivid memory from the bar exam was coming home and sitting in front of the TV with a bottle of Johny Walker Red in hand and waking up in the same chair next morning to find it empty. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 8:31 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams When I attended law school in 1978, I was not allowed to take the LSAT. However, I was not granted extra time for the exams. I guess they would have granted the extra time if I had requested it. No one offered the extra time. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > In reality before technology blind studentswere done at the same time > as their sighted classmates and continue to do so. Over the years I > have taken many law courses and while I may have been allowed extra > time I very seldom actually needed to use it. At times this was quite > a shock to professors. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > > >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying >> to make lives better for future students so if I speak with the law >> school in Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me >> that have gone through and whatever system they used worked. I know >> some people will say "blind people before you went through without >> technology so what did they do?" My response to that is yes they did >> but now that technology is there and we are using it more exams >> should be easier to take. I'm waiting for the day that a blind person >> can keep up with his classmates with the four courses or whatever it >> takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the >> exact same thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of >>> greater accessibility now, at the time I started law school three >>> years ago it was not possible to run a screen reader alongside the >>> software; I confirmed this with the sample test and by speaking to >>> the school's IT department. My advice would be to request the school >>> forgo your use of the software as a testing accommodation. The issue >>> will come up again when you take the bar and could be more >>> contentious then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Good evening everyone! >>> > >>> > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If >>> > anyone has >>> any >>> > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >>> > >>> > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell >>> > Latitutde >>> with >>> > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have >>> > to use the software Exam4 for my upcoming exams. I have heard that >>> > this software will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the >>> > built-in Windows magnification program) from working if I attempt >>> > to use them during an exam. >>> > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the >>> > school because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now >>> > don't have >>> Zoomtext >>> > on my laptop. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have experience with this Exam4 software, and is a >>> > user of ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) >>> > problem? Any >>> ideas, >>> > again, are welcome. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Kate >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kathryn CARROLL >>> > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >>> > 631-521-318 C >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > blindlaw: >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentin >>> o%40gmail.com >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.ka >>> thryn.e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutsch >> er%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deele > y%40insightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 08:09:18 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:09:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom References: <7541B8A2973747D4AF3BA5B2332D88A0@none8a46117901><058d01cb5914$87faf520$6601a8c0@server> <56742010526E4680AEDFE9722E6BD58F@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <000f01cb5ee4$7438b920$6601a8c0@server> Hello Ross, I've been out of town for a few days and I am very behind in my email. I really appreciate hearing from you. I had no idea that these kinds of portable wireless Bluetooth ear pieces were available. I knew that there were wireless earphones for cell phones but I wasn't aware that they could be made to function with computers. I will venture over to Best Buy later this week and see if they have anything available which isn't in a bubble package and can be examined. I will let you know if I find anything new or interesting. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > Hello Dennis: > The two blue tooth ear pieces I have are both JABRA makes. One is a JABRA > 960, and that one is pretty old. I don't think you can buy them any more - > that one has a batterry life of about 4 hours. Messes me up when I'm > trying to work all day in the office, It means I need to plug it into the > charger at lunch time or I will end up being without it later in the day > and wearing a wired headset or listening to JAWS aloud all day. I do a lot > of work by telephone and find the blue tooth wireless ear piece to be very > handy. The JABRA 960 is a bit on the heavy side, for an earpiece that is, > and is slightly larger than the newer ones that are out. Even the old one > is less than the size of your ear and is not very obtrusive at all. > The newer one I have, a BT LHGM is smaller and is lighter - and is very > easy to wear and get used to and is less obtrusive. Remember, these things > are pretty darn small to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about it much. > These are the same blue tooth earpieces that you can use with your cell > phone, so you have an idea how small they are. > I would suggest that you check around your area in places like Staples > office supply and ask to "see" a few of them. They all seem to come in a > bubble pack, so I'd ask they pull one out for you. I have made it a > practice to get the kind that has a CD ROM with them so that any software > that might not already be on your computer, is available for loading. this > avoids the online search to find and download the software from some other > web site. Getting the darn things configured with your laptop is the > trick, that is not remotely accessible. What you really need is a > computer-savvy teen ager to help out. If you don't happen to have one of > your own, they are easily found in such places as any computer store or > can be very easily rented or loaned through friends who have one or two at > home. > I usually find blue tooth earpieces with a USB thing, less than the size > of a thumb drive, that comes with the earpiece, and gets plugged in to > one of my USB ports. I think they are antennas, but I'm not sure, all I > know is that if I don't have that USB thing plugged in, it won't work > right. > I have paid between $150 and $400 for these items. They do range in price, > and they change quickly, very quickly. My new, BT LHGM was bought 2 years > ago and is already considered old. IT still works great, so I'm not in any > hurry to get rid of it any time soon. So I'm kind of curious to know what > is new that is out there now. > One other thing, with JAWS, and I use version 10 these days, when a blue > tooth device "connects" with your laptop, some devices will pull jaws in > right away and you needn't do anything other than wait for it to kick in. > Others, once you hear the connection sound, usually your default email > receipt sound, you need to pop into jaws and change your sound card > default. > Don't panic about that, if you are using JAWS 10 like I am, pull JAWS up, > tap U for utilities, then O for sound cards and then arrow up or down to > see what kinds of sound cards are listed. If you have a blue tooth device > that you've just turned on, one item listed there will be "Blue Tooth > Device" listed right with the sound cards. If the blue tooth is not turned > on, that "blue tooth device" item won't show in with the sound cards. > I run XP home edition with JAWS 10, and after I'd had the blue tooth > operate a few times, it began picking up JAWS automatically all by itself. > Getting the blue tooth to kick in after you turn it on takes about 10 > seconds. > The oddest experience I've had with those earpieces is that sighted people > think I'm on the telephone all the time. Using it as a simple earpiece is > a new experience for those sighted people around you. > > Hope this helps. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:38 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom > > >> Hello Ross, >> Your positive experience with these Bluetooth ear pieces is very >> encouraging. Can you recommend any specific brands or models that you >> have >> liked? Also, are any of them particularly small so that they are not >> obtrusive? I look forward to hearing from you. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >> >> >>>I have been using blue tooth headset ear pieces to do my work for the >>>past >>>5 years. Almost all laptops these days are blue tooth compatible, and I >>>find them to be pretty useful. >>> I have used them extensively in administrative hearings and in courts. >>> About the only draw back to using them is that, when you first start >>> using them, your ear might take a while to get used to wearing it. But >>> they all come with volume controls on them and you can set them up to be >>> secure connections. >>> This way, my laptop is my talking file, and all I really have to worry >>> about is keeping any evidence exhibits in hard copy straight, doing >>> quick >>> search prep for my computer file, and in general, tryng to make sure >>> nobody from the other table can glance over at what is on my laptop >>> screen. >>> Oh yes, one more thing, I have never found a blue tooth ear piece that >>> does not "blink". Not that it is distratcing, but one needs to know that >>> what you have in your ear does "flash". >>> No, that does not make you a flasher. >>> OH yes, one other thing, The little batterey in the ear piece is not >>> constant. Some will last 4 hours, some six hours and others 8 hours. It >>> all depends on how much you are willing to spend on one. >>> One last thing - sales people in computer stores all tell you that all >>> you >>> need to do is to charge up a blue tooth ear piece and your computer will >>> recognize it. Well, In the 5 years I've been using them, I have never >>> once been able to get a laptop to do that. >>> I've used two blue tooth ear pieces, I still have both of them, and have >>> undergone two computer crashes at home and two at the officve. Each time >>> it was an inaccessible re-configuration deal with someone sighted to get >>> it installed properly again. >>> Once installed, I have found that JAWS works pretty well with them. >>> IF you want to know any more, contact me off list at: >>> rumpole at roadrunner.com >>> Hope that helps. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Shannon Geihsler" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:19 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] wireless head phone for courtroom >>> >>> >>>> Dear All: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone found a wireless head phone that works well for being able >>>> to >>>> hear the screen reader you have on your computer? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Any help is greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shannon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >>>> Lubbock, TX 79401 >>>> Phone: 763-3999 >>>> Fax: 749-3752 >>>> >>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without >>>> express >>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 >>> 06:35:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 > 06:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 03:48:58 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:48:58 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams In-Reply-To: <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> References: <088301cb5b1e$ba609770$400110ac@GPD945> <20100925024951.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <7BD1C0952F1F4EA39DE35CC3E0A6F69F@spike> I like it! Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray wayne" To: Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > Back in my day we had two twelve hour days, three if we were taking too > states at a time, or California. And we started at 6:00 in the morning and > went until 6:00 at night. And that's the way it was, and we liked it! We > loved it! Smile! > Grumpy Old Blind Man > PS: based on and old Saturday Night Live sketch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Blaine Deutscher > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Date: Thursday, Sep 23, 2010 8:57:13 > Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams > >> >> >> I'm not sure what it's like in the sattes but isn't the bar a two day >> process? do blind people get time and a half to write the exam or how >> does >> that work? It's something to look into now as I'm always trying to make >> lives better for future students so if I speak with the law school in >> Saskatchewan they might have some blind people before me that have gone >> through and whatever system they used worked. I know some people will say >> "blind people before you went through without technology so what did they >> do?" My response to that is yes they did but now that technology is there >> and we are using it more exams should be easier to take. I'm waiting for >> the >> day that a blind person can keep up with his classmates with the four >> courses or whatever it takes to be done the same time that they are. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kate Carroll" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [bllaw] Exam$ software and law school exams >> >> >> Thank you Aser. I was not aware that I might be going through the exact >> same >> thing with the Bar. >> >> Kate >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Aser Tolentino >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > My school and the CA bar use ExamSoft. While I've heard talk of greater >> > accessibility now, at the time I started law school three years ago it >> > was >> > not possible to run a screen reader alongside the software; I confirmed >> > this >> > with the sample test and by speaking to the school's IT department. My >> > advice would be to request the school forgo your use of the software as >> > a >> > testing accommodation. The issue will come up again when you take the >> > bar >> > and could be more contentious then. >> > >> > Best, >> > Aser >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Kate Carroll >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Good evening everyone! >> > > >> > > I am looking for some advice concerning law school exams. If anyone >> > > has >> > any >> > > thoughts on my question, i would greatly appreciate hearing them. >> > > >> > > I am in my first year of law school. I currently use a Dell Latitutde >> > with >> > > Windows 7, and ZoomText for magnification and reading. I will have to >> > > use >> > > the software Exambled for my upcoming exams. I have heard that this >> > > software >> > > will likely prevent ZoomText (and possibly the built-in Windows >> > > magnification program) from working if I attempt to use them during >> > > an >> > > exam. >> > > I havent actually tested the problem with the tech guys at the school >> > > because I need to get a Zoomtext license and right now don't have >> > Zoomtext >> > > on my laptop. >> > > >> > > Does anyone have experience with this Exambled software, and is a >> > > user of >> > > ZoomText? What did you do to get around this (alleged) problem? Any >> > ideas, >> > > again, are welcome. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kate >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Kathryn CARROLL >> > > St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> > > 631-521-318 C >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > bllaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > bllaw: >> > > >> > > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bllaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > bllaw: >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kathryn CARROLL >> St. John's University College of Law 2013 >> 631-521-318 C >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bllaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> bllaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 29 15:38:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:38:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:12 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:10 AM To: 'jobs at nfb.org' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'nedy at wyjlaw.com'; 'newmedia at ja.org'; 'Neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'Nancy W Patton'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'PALSD at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp. To see the complete list of Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies, please visit the Department's web page at: http://www.justice.gov/oarm/attvacancies.html. Below, please find the most recently posted vacancies. We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies ATTORNEY-ADVISOR FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER FEDERAL CORRECTIONAL COMPLEX FLORENCE, COLORADO GS-905-13/14 This position is open until filled but no later than October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-27-2010 SENIOR COUNSEL TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL GS-905-15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2010-81 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: October, 19 2010. Date posted: 09-24-2010 SENIOR COUNSEL TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SL-905-00 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 2010-OIG-SL-01 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: October, 19 2010. Date posted: 09-24-2010 EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY (GS-0905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION GANG UNIT WASHINGTON, DC 10-CRM-GSU-068 Positions are open until filled. Date posted: 09-23-2010 ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0228 (1) Position Applications received after 10/15/2010, will not be considered. Date posted: 09-23-2010 BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF ENFORCEMENT PROGRAMS AND SERVICES OFFICE OF REGULATIONS ATTORNEY(S), GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by October 25, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 09-23-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0218 1 Position Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-23-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0217 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0216 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, EL PASO (SPC), TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0215 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, DENVER, COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0214 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, DALLAS, TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0213 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, ARLINGTON, VIRGINIAVACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0212 1 Position. Applications received after 10/13/2010 will not be considered. Date posted: 09-22-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE Vacancy Announcement #10-EDTN-AUSA-03 Applications must be received by Friday, October 8, 2010. Date posted: 09-21-2010 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DIVERSION AND REGULATORY LITIGATION SECTION SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY/GS 15 Applications must be received by October 18,2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-074 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-073 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 DEPUTY CHIEF, GS-15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-072 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-071 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 10-CRM-AFMLS-069 All applications must be received October 12, 2010. Date posted: 09-20-2010 ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION ENVIRONMENTAL ENFORCEMENT SECTION GS-12/15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 16, 2010 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 30, 2010 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-10-050-EXC Applications must be received by Thursday, September 30, 2010. Date posted: 09-16-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 10-CO-AUSA-07 This announcement is open from Wednesday, September 15, 2010 to Wednesday September, 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 10-CO-AUSA-04 This announcement is open from Wednesday, September 15, 2010 to Wednesday September, 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FRESNO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-24A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-23A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FRESNO, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 10-EDCA-22A Applications should be postmarked no later than Wednesday, September 29, 2010. Date posted: 09-15-2010 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK BROOKLYN, NEW YORK Position open until filled, but no later than September 16, 2010. Date posted: 09-14-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 29 15:42:15 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Message-ID: From: CMPDL's Disability Discussion Docket (3D) [mailto:CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Phelan, William Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:37 AM To: CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: FW: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Two special education attorney vacancies in Los Angeles, CA. William J. Phelan, IV, Esq. Special Projects and Technology Coordinator Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association phelanw at staff.abanet.org www.abanet.org/disability ________________________________ From: Nancy C. Constantine [mailto:NConstantine at fagenfriedman.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 12:31 PM To: Phelan, William Cc: Howard Fulfrost; Terilyn Finders Subject: RE: Information for Commission's Fall Newsletter Hello Bill, Below is the attorney job posting information. Please call me if you have questions. Thank you. SPECIAL EDUCATION ATTORNEY Los Angeles office of Fagen Friedman & Fulfrost LLP has an immediate opening for two experienced special education associates, one mid-level and one senior. Candidates will have excellent writing, analytical, and people skills, value a team work environment, but can work independently, are highly motivated and can assume significant case responsibility. Please submit resume and writing sample to: nconstantine at fagenfriedman.com. NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE. Nancy [cid:image001.jpg at 01CB5FB2.37BFB880] Nancy C. Constantine Executive Director 6300 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1700 Los Angeles, CA 90048-5219 Direct: (323) 330-6814 Main Phone: (323) 330-6300 Main Fax: (323) 330-6311 E-mail: NConstantine at fagenfriedman.com Web: www.fagenfriedman.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT(S): This e-mail communication and any attachment(s) may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged by law and is meant solely for the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized use, review, duplication, disclosure or interception of this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately of the error by return e-mail and please delete this message and any attachment(s) from your system. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. ________________________________ ============== Going to respond to this message? Be sure to hit "Reply All" when doing so. Disability Discussion Docket (3D) ABA Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law http://www.abanet.org/disability ------------------ Material distributed over 3D is for educational and informational purposes only. The contents of any e-mail, including any statements that may be construed as legal advice or referral, are solely the responsibility of the e-mail's author. In no event shall any contents be the responsibility of and do not necessarily reflect the views of the American Bar Association, its officers, employees, agents or the Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law. ------------------ Getting too many e-mails? You can switch to the digest format by sending a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. Leave the subject blank and in the body of the message type "SET list HTML DIGEST". To return to the traditional subscription, follow the same directions, but put "SET list NODIGEST" in the body of the message. If you want to leave this list at any time and are an ABA member, please log in at: http://www.abanet.org/elistserv/home.cfm?src=CC&LSN=CMPDL-3D for proper options. If you are not an ABA member and want to leave this list, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "signoff cmpdl-3d." If you have any questions about 3D or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: ~WRD000.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 448 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:47:57 2010 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:47:57 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello List, I am needing a referral for a Lawyer in Texas who practices in family and custody law. If anyone could please please help, it would be greatly appreciated! Marsha Drenth Marsha.drenth at gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5490 (20100929) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Thu Sep 30 14:29:57 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:29:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94FF25146ED245A0BD6FBD328E4394E5@HPLaptop> I am an attorney licensed and practicing in Texas. My office is in Lubbock, Texas. I also practice in family law. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marsha Drenth Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 3:48 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: [blindlaw] needing a referral Hello List, I am needing a referral for a Lawyer in Texas who practices in family and custody law. If anyone could please please help, it would be greatly appreciated! Marsha Drenth Marsha.drenth at gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5490 (20100929) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Sep 30 20:50:56 2010 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:50:56 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Nfbc-info] Are you planning to take the California Bar exam or theMPRE? Message-ID: <2950FAE799BD41ECBDBC2F4225EB56E5@labarre> Please read the below. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karla Gilbride" To: "NFB of California List" Cc: "California Association of Blind Students Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:40 PM Subject: [Nfbc-info] Are you planning to take the California Bar exam or theMPRE? > Disability Rights Advocates would like to speak with individuals who are > planning to take the California Bar exam or the Multistate Professional > Responsibility Exam (MPRE) in California during 2011 and who use screen > access technology (JAWS, ZoomText, or other screen reading or screen > magnification programs) as their primary method of reading in employment > or law school settings. If you are in this situation, please contact > Karla Gilbride at 510-665-8644 or kgilbride at dralegal.org. > > Thank you for your attention. > > > Karla Gilbride > Staff Attorney > Disability Rights Advocates > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > Berkeley, California 94704-1204 > > 510-665-8644 ext. 117 (Tel) > 510-665-8716 (TTY) > 510-665-8511 (Fax) > kgilbride at dralegal.org > > STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY > The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential > and are intended solely for the addressee. This information may also be > legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole > purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this > transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this > transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or at > (510) 665-8644 or (510) 665-8716 (TTY) and delete the message and its > attachments, if any. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbc-info mailing list > Nfbc-info at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Nfbc-info: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com >