[blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:

Thu Jun 23 01:11:48 UTC 2011

What do others of you think of this opinion? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Fry" <mikefry79 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:

Hi Mike,

I highly recommend that you take the Kaplan LSAT review course.  You
need to study your butt off for the LSAT.  Take the review course and
do all the practice exams.  The review course is about $1,000.  In my
opinion, well worth it.  Talk to your undergraduate schools career
services about options for paying for the LSAT and LSAT review course.

Don't let the NPR story get you down.  The reality is that nearly
everyone on this list is blind and took the LSAT and is a practicing
attorney.  I notice that sometimes NPR sensationalizing stories.

Hi Beth,

How do you use your iphone while being visually impaired?  I ask
because I want an iphone but am under the impression they don't work
well for the visually impaired.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Dittman, Robert <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> 
wrote:
> Hi RJ,
>
> I read the opinion, and I think the key holding is that the learned 
> Justices said that it doesn't matter the commendations of other cases, 
> that the key point is what works for the individuals who are taking the 
> exam.
>
> Take my personal situation. I am getting ready to take the MPRE this 
> August 5th. I wrote a letter requesting the use of JAWS as when I was in 
> primary school and high school, my amount of vision was such that I could 
> read large print. I learned Braille after going completely blind at 
> eighteen years of age but never used it as my primary form of literacy. I 
> requested that if JAWS would not be permitted, I would take the exam in 
> Braille but also requested triple time so that I would be able to slowly 
> painstakingly read each question to understand it. I told them that JAWS 
> was my first choice, but as a second choice I was willing to take the exam 
> in Braille and as a third and final choice, in an audio format.
>
> They granted my request to take the exam in Braille with triple time. So, 
> we both gave a little.
> At this point your most likely asking, "Why give them an option?" Because 
> if I take the exam in Braille and fail it, which I do not believe I will 
> do, or take the Exam using audio and also fail it, my argument, if I were 
> to sue, will be strengthened. After jumping through all these hoops, I am 
> better able to show for me as an individual JAWS would be the most 
> accessible option and thus the opinion of the ninth circuit is very 
> persuasive.
>
> As a lawyer, even a student one, whenever I walk into court I must have 
> the strongest arguments supporting my client's position, and be able to 
> present evidence supporting those arguments. If I were to request JAWS, 
> then sue after being denied without trying the other formats, then I risk 
> this situation.
>
> Lawyer for NCBE "Mr. Dittman is it not true that you have had Braille 
> education in the past."
> My response must be "Yes"
> NCBE Lawyer" Then why did you not attempt the exam in Braille?"
> My response "Because I am unsure if I have the Braille skills to complete 
> the exam in the time given."
> NCBE Lawyer, "And yet you did not attempt to take the exam in Braille so 
> you still do not know if your skills would have enabled you to complete 
> the exam in Braille."
> My response would have to be "No, I do not know if I do in fact have the 
> skills."
> Or,
> NCBE Lawyer, "Mr. Dittman Did you explain to the NCBE why the formats of 
> Audio, Reader, Braille, and other factors such as extended time would not 
> work for you?"
> My response "yes in a letter."
> NCBE Lawyer, "And yet you are unwilling to try them?"
> My response "Yes"
> NCBE lawyer, "So, you truly do not know if one of the offered forms of 
> accommodation would have been adequate for you to complete the exam."
> My response would have to be "No, having not taken the exam in those 
> offered formats I do not know if they would have worked."
>
> NCBE "Your honor, this case is one in which the plaintiff was unwilling to 
> accommodate the concerns of the NCBE as they contend that the MPRE and MBE 
> are exams that are based on paper and completed with a pencil. The 
> Plaintiff would like this court to grant him the ability to greatly 
> deviate from the normal administration of the exam by using a personal 
> computer without trying the proffered forms of accommodation which may 
> have worked. The ninth Circuit held that it is the accommodations that 
> work for the individual that concern us in these types of cases, and yet 
> Mr. Dittman's suit cannot answer if these other forms of accommodations 
> would or would have not worked as he failed to give them a chance.
>
> Now, because of the rout I have taken by given the NCBE a little wiggle 
> room or more to the point by negotiating with them, the interaction can be 
> this.
>
> NCBE Counsel, "Mr. Dittman is it not true that you have had some Braille 
> education in the past?"
> My response "Yes."
> NCBE Counsel "And yet you still maintain that a screen reader is the only 
> form of accommodation?"
> My response "Yes"
> NCBE Counsel "Will you please explain to the court why you believe this?"
> My response "I have taken the exam using extended time, in Braille, and by 
> audio formats. Even despite using all of these accommodations I was unable 
> to adequately understand the call of each question in the time allotted. I 
> would submit to this court that I have been completely fair to the NCBE in 
> working with them to address their concerns. I only ask that they now be 
> made to understand that by the evidence I have presented that the screen 
> reader is the only method that will truly provide me with an equal level 
> field of access. Accommodations are in place to provide the person 
> requesting them an even chance to complete the task as others without the 
> disability. I have shown that I am more than willing to try the offered 
> accommodations, and now ask the court's support in ordering the NCBE to 
> try my requested form of accommodations. The ninth Circuit held that it is 
> the accommodations that work for the individual that concern us in these 
> types of cases, and given that I have tried all the other offered forms of 
> accommodations and yet still have been unable to pass the exam, then the 
> only just and right remedy left for us is for this court to order the NCBE 
> to grant my requested form of accommodation of a screen reader."
>
> But, we won't have to go that far because I'm going to pass the MPRE and 
> the MBE whatever accommodations they throw at me and get out there and 
> advocate for equal treatment under the law.
>
> This was kind of fun.
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX 78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760 fax: (210) 431-5700
> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:34 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>
> Please read the opinion attached
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>
>
>> What are the general facts of Stephanie's case?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>>
>>
>>> What about Stephanie's Case? RJ
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dittman, Robert" <rdittman at stmarytx.edu>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am responding to the LSAT issue a little late, but I do think some
>>> clarity of the argument is in order.
>>>
>>> The law suit says that it is impossible for a blind person to "take" the
>>> LSAT and therefore cannot get into law school. This is not true as I and
>>> many others who are completely blind have taken the LSAT. Was it easy,
>>> nope, were the accommodations what I requested, Nope, but that is a
>>> separate issue from the exam itself.
>>>
>>> I believe the LSAT is a valued exam, and that dealing with the
>>> accommodations given for the exam are the core of the issue at hand.
>>>
>>> But, I did not write the complaint nor will I say that a person should
>>> not be able to bring their concerns before the court.
>>>
>>> I do have some questions.
>>>
>>> First the plaintiff said they applied to three law schools, and that 
>>> they
>>> were "top tier". Well, what score did the plaintiff get on their LSAT?
>>> Was it close, within a point or two? How did the plaintiff do on the
>>> questions that are not the puzzles? Much of the exam is perfectly
>>> understandable by a blind person. Perhaps there is another reason why
>>> they were not accepted. Isn't the reasons for a lack of admission closed
>>> to enquiry?
>>>
>>> Secondly why only three law schools? When I applied I applied to my
>>> school and others. I was accepted into my school of choice on a
>>> provisional program and upon completion of that program gained full
>>> admittance. Did the plaintiff receive an offer to enter the school under
>>> such a program? Did the plaintiff make it known to the school that they
>>> had the desire to apply? When I applied I made sure they knew my name,
>>> and even sat in on a class or two and met with students, professors, and
>>> other staff so that when my application hit their desk, I am sure I was
>>> remembered. However, given all this it was very hard for me and
>>> countless others to get into law school. The selection committees look 
>>> at
>>> the whole person so in the words of one professor, "There has to be
>>> something that says to us, you belong in the profession of law." What
>>> did the rest of this person's package look like?
>>>
>>>
>>> So, In my humble opinion, the test itself isn't bad and most likely
>>> prevents people from entering a program that they are ill-equipped to
>>> enter. I am not saying that in this issue that is what happened, that is
>>> for the court to rule upon. I am saying that placing all of the blame at
>>> the feet of the NCBE or the LSAC, or the ABA isn't very fair either.
>>>
>>> With respect,
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert D. Dittman
>>> Student Attorney
>>> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil 
>>> Clinic)
>>> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
>>> San Antonio, TX 78228-3918
>>> Phone: (210) 431-5760 fax: (210) 431-5700
>>> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>>>
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
>>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>>> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
>>> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
>>> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 3:11 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>>>
>>> I suspect Stephanie's case will be heard by the supreme court of these
>>> United States, and she will prevail! Beth, Maybe you should consider
>>> becoming a lawyer, because their many other lawyers who've overcame
>>> discrimination, and are practicing law Today! The least you can do Beth,
>>> is Ask some one on this list what prerecs you'd have to take, then take
>>> them, then mabe by the time you're ready to inter law school, the LSAT
>>> will be accessible to us as blind people! RJ
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 4:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to discourage, but the fact and reality is that the
>>>> LSAT is what it is. It's worse than having to do quant comps.
>>>> Remember those things on the SAT? The only difference is that having
>>>> accommodations on this test is flagged as though it had inappropriate
>>>> material on it.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 9:18 AM, "RJ Sandefur"
>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Beth, You should not discorage him from taking the LSAT!
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Concerning the LSAT:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Michael.
>>>>>> Read the NPR story on the LSAT student applicant who couldn't get
>>>>>> into law school. You might want to give this LSAT stuff a second
>>>>>> look before you take it, and be sure the Canadian Bar accepts
>>>>>> accommodated tests without a red flag.
>>>>>> Good luck
>>>>>> Beth Taurasi
>>>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 6:50 PM, Michael McKay <mgmckay1963 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greetings! all:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is Michael McKay. I live in canada, and am blind. I look
>>>>>>> forword to participating in this discussion group as much as I am
>>>>>>> able, and also contributing as well. I have applied to the
>>>>>>> University of New Brunswick Faculty of Law, at Ludlow Hall on UNB
>>>>>>> Fredericton New Brunswick's Campus. I was informed by the admission
>>>>>>> office that there is an enterence exam called an LSAT, that one
>>>>>>> does online. I at this present time do not have access to a Credit
>>>>>>> Card, so I am wondering if there is another way to pay the cost of
>>>>>>> the exam. I need to have all the pre-enterence stuff completed no
>>>>>>> later then the end of March 2012.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Respectfully!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *Michael G. McKay
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *70 Grove Crescent,*
>>>>>>> *Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.*
>>>>>>> *Canada. P6B 5V4*
>>>>>>> E-Mail: mgmckay1963 at gmail.com
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
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