From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 04:10:44 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:10:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] News Story about Blind Federal Prosecutor Yusef Dale
In-Reply-To: <2e81e.72b62479.3b9016f2@aol.com>
References: <2e81e.72b62479.3b9016f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbarFrW7V=-ZedTJkRQzmSo6Ef0HbLeq3S+CGfLKt8O=ajg@mail.gmail.com>

That's a great story.  I want to be like him.

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:00 PM,  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> _http://www.wgntv.com/news/coverstory/wgntv-cover-story-yusef-dale-aug29,0,2
> 171165.story_
> (http://www.wgntv.com/news/coverstory/wgntv-cover-story-yusef-dale-aug29,0,2171165.story)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 11:43:03 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 04:43:03 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com>
	<996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
Message-ID: <34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>

actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent 
people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been found 
mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be 
prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never to 
make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may 
come in to play.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and 
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits 
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make: 
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move 
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen 
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you 
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding would 
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky remains 
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 15:34:58 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 09:34:58 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com>
	<996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
	<34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
Message-ID: <CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>

Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
Beth

On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
>> Hi Beth:
>>
>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding would
>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky remains
>> your limit!
>>
>> Wishing you the very best.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Olusegun
>> Denver, Colorado
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 15:48:57 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 11:48:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>

If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me,  The 
Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication would 
they not?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  1 17:47:17 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:17 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>

Hello list:
I am searching for an accessible online fax program. Any suggestions? I sampled e-fax and was not impressed with the accessibility.
Thanks in advance,

William T. Miller, Esq.

From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com  Thu Sep  1 18:27:49 2011
From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 11:27:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EB924E1C59EF4186AFE020D722989610@RThomas>

Try Rapidfax.com.


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

www.emplmntattorney.com

Follow me on Twitter:  EmplmntAttorney

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Will Miller
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:47 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program

Hello list:
I am searching for an accessible online fax program. Any suggestions? I
sampled e-fax and was not impressed with the accessibility.
Thanks in advance,

William T. Miller, Esq.
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40emplmnta
ttorney.com



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Thu Sep  1 18:35:35 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:35:35 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
	<34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
Message-ID: <798DCC6AC9ED4512AD19B80887F2B3CE@victory2>

I think we need to be reasonable in our discussion of the subject matter. 
The issue under discussion has NOTHING TO DO with mental incompetency.  The 
issue is whether or not a blind lady, in this case, Ms. Beth, has a right to 
marry a Somalian man.  Without mincing words, the answer is YES!

In the past, a medical test to rule out certain disease conditions was 
required here in Colorado and perhaps elsewhere in these United States.  If 
there is a medical condition that is transferrable from one partner to the 
other and eventually to their offspring(s) if any by way of marriage, the 
couple will be so advised.  The couple then reserves the right to terminate 
the relationship or continue with it.  Today, Colorado NO LONGER conducts 
such medical tests.  May be the couple involved can request one or each 
other, but this will have to be a private affair.  With this case, I don't 
see any extenuating circumstances that would prohibit Beth from marrying a 
Somalian man.  Bigamy, if proven to be the case, becomes a different issue 
and presents a different argument.  Nothing to suggest that this has been 
uncovered.

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Thu Sep  1 18:37:51 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:37:51 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
References: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B079AB86AA504DD09410865374981058@victory2>

Hi Will:

Try:

www.myfax.com

Or:

www.rapidfax.com

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado


From william.burley3 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 19:28:19 2011
From: william.burley3 at gmail.com (William Burley)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:28:19 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <4e5fdcbf.0591970a.2a03.0f99@mx.google.com>

This is an interesting conversation.  I am a bit confused though as I have
not seen the original post yet.  May be lost in spam folder.  What is this
issue really about...is it based upon blindness or mental compentancy?  I
think those two issues will make the conversation make better sense to me
becase at this point some are discussing the mental issue and others the
blindness issue.

Thanks folks!

Will every 

William Burley
(713) 551-8689
William.burley3 at gmail.com 

www.facebook.com/wburley3 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:49 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me,  The

Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication would 
they not?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40
gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu
r%40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.burley3%40
gmail.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 20:47:00 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C545E26E19254A138F80F7AD97430FEA@spike>

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person 
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person did 
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not 
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where there 
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It is 
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age of 
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the 
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of 
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will still 
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a 
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these arguments. 
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent 
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that 
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their 
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances 
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 20:50:52 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:50:52 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike><CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <C5C8C0A537624B888F961F5544D9BF46@spike>

that could carry some wait in the decision and she it would be necessary to 
prove otherwise to reverse the findings of incompetency.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me, 
> The Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
> Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication 
> would they not?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
>> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
>> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
>> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that 
>>> prevent
>>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>>> found
>>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>>> to
>>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that 
>>> may
>>> come in to play.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Beth:
>>>>
>>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, 
>>>> and
>>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can 
>>>> move
>>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely 
>>>> happen
>>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>>> would
>>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>>> remains
>>>> your limit!
>>>>
>>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Olusegun
>>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 23:34:17 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:34:17 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>

This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to 
sexual relations with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no 
way there is going to be any kind of thing dealing with 
"providing for" me.  Deq does not have to provide for me.  We 
will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if you know 
what I mean.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person did
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where there
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It is
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age of
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could 
make the
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will still
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
arguments.
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net



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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net


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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com


From blinddog3 at charter.net  Thu Sep  1 23:53:16 2011
From: blinddog3 at charter.net (Steven Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 18:53:16 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
References: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <003901cc6902$519b11f0$f4d135d0$@net>

Hi everyone,
I am just watching this thread and will take the opportunity to introduce
myself.  I am not an attorney, or legal expert, but have always been
fascinated by civil rights law.  

Now, with the situation that Beth ahs been describing, wouldn't
guardianship, protective placement  or a chapter commitment be one of those
circumstances?

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Beth
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to 
sexual relations with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no 
way there is going to be any kind of thing dealing with 
"providing for" me.  Deq does not have to provide for me.  We 
will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if you know 
what I mean.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person did
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where there
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It is
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age of
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could 
make the
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will still
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
arguments.
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net



 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net


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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com

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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charte
r.net



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep  2 03:05:26 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
References: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8F9545270E4F4760900BFCC608801B1E@spike>

The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in 
your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with 
whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other 
factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you 
manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you are 
doing well in trying to attain your goals.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent 
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations 
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be 
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to 
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if 
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person 
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where 
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It 
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age 
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will 
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 03:46:55 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 21:46:55 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e6051b5.4b13e70a.6319.2677@mx.google.com>

Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use 
financial supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit 
card, and so I fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial 
Represntative Payee programs, of which I have no intrerest, but 
I'm afraid he'll force his will on me.  This is something I can't 
accept.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to 
engage in
your regular daily activities and show that you are following 
through with
whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The 
other
factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how 
well you
manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds 
like you are
doing well in trying to attain your goals.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent
 adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual 
relations
 with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is 
going to be
 any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not 
have to
 provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of 
things, if
 you know what I mean.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
 would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person
 did
 not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
 understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where
 there
 has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It
 is
 also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age
 of
 consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they 
could make the
 argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
 providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will
 still
 try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
 disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for 
these
 arguments.
 This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
 case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
 were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
 new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
 but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 14:39:26 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e6051b5.4b13e70a.6319.2677@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5A3700BA40F74167BBC1AECDD3C60BDA@hometwxakonvzn>

Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is your 
guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to say it but 
theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida case, and if 
you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm sorry, but 
you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an attorney, but this 
is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face reality that 
as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be able to 
marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying to be cruel 
or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They do not, 
and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida based on 
blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he told me that 
it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use financial 
> supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, and so I 
> fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative Payee 
> programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll force his 
> will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in
> your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with
> whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other
> factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you
> manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you 
> are
> doing well in trying to attain your goals.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> 



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Fri Sep  2 16:11:34 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:11:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions - Taking legal advice requests
	off-list
Message-ID: <37e85.67df28bd.3b925a35@aol.com>

Hi All,
 
This thread has had some very interesting discussions about the legality of 
 prohibiting the blind from marrying.  Those portions of the conversation  
have been on-topic with regard to staying within the framework of the list, 
e.g.  laws that impact the blind differently than sighted counterparts.
 
However, this list is not intended to be a forum to discuss personal legal  
advice or personal challenges faced by list members outside of the  
practice of law.  
 
If individuals are interested in continuing the conversation with Beth and  
wish to offer her advice, please email her off-list to do so.
 
Thank you,
Ronza
 
 
 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 18:57:29 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:57:29 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>

Well, I care for myself right now in Colorado, and Dad doesn't 
see that.  I have to be absolutely sure that CCDC in Colorado, 
the Cross-Disability Coalition, can work with the Florida system 
and get rid of it.  The prevention of marriage was based in part 
due to parent child conflict, and then they said I had to make 
changes.  Whuat changes I don't know, but Deq has nearly broken 
up with me a bunch of times over this, so it is grounds for 
getting rid of it.  I've needed help trying for months and 
perhaps years.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is 
your
guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to 
say it but
theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida 
case, and if
you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm 
sorry, but
you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an 
attorney, but this
is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face 
reality that
as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be 
able to
marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying 
to be cruel
or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They 
do not,
and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida 
based on
blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he 
told me that
it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use 
financial
 supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, 
and so I
 fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative 
Payee
 programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll 
force his
 will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to 
engage in
 your regular daily activities and show that you are following 
through with
 whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The 
other
 factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how 
well you
 manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds 
like you
 are
 doing well in trying to attain your goals.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent
 adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual 
relations
 with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is 
going to be
 any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not 
have to
 provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of 
things, if
 you know what I mean.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
 would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person
 did
 not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
 understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where
 there
 has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It
 is
 also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age
 of
 consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they 
could make the
 argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
 providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will
 still
 try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
 disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for 
these
 arguments.
 This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
 case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
 were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
 new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
 but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:


 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
 n%40sbcglobal.net



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 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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 blindlaw:


 
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 sisloose%40gmail.com


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 blindlaw:


 
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oose%40gmail.com


From kdbenterprises at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  2 21:29:56 2011
From: kdbenterprises at yahoo.com (kdb)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1314998996.5510.YahooMailMobile@web161513.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

http://onsitesupply.ca/indexty120.php

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sat Sep  3 03:19:18 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:19:18 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>
References: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <10D3A7DDAE90430985A01CBE28C296C1@spike>

You need to find an attorney in Colorado that specializes in probate matters 
of guardianship that can research the specific law regarding periodic review 
of conservatorships. If you were found mentally incompetent by a court you 
were most likely placed on some form of conservatorship. In most states 
conservatees have the right to have their status reviewed by the court 
periodically as people's conditions and circumstances change. Not working in 
Colorado or Florida and not being familiar with the specific laws I can't 
offer any other suggestion for you to resolve this. In many cities the local 
bar association provides a lawyer referral service where for a nominal fee 
you can get a consultation with an attorney specializing in a particular 
area of law. After the consultation you would then negotiate with the 
attorney if they are interested in handling your case with regard to legal 
fees and other requirements.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Well, I care for myself right now in Colorado, and Dad doesn't see that. 
> I have to be absolutely sure that CCDC in Colorado, the Cross-Disability 
> Coalition, can work with the Florida system and get rid of it.  The 
> prevention of marriage was based in part due to parent child conflict, and 
> then they said I had to make changes.  Whuat changes I don't know, but Deq 
> has nearly broken up with me a bunch of times over this, so it is grounds 
> for getting rid of it.  I've needed help trying for months and perhaps 
> years.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is your
> guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to say it but
> theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida case, and 
> if
> you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm sorry, 
> but
> you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an attorney, but 
> this
> is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face reality 
> that
> as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be able to
> marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying to be 
> cruel
> or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They do not,
> and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida based on
> blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he told me 
> that
> it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use financial
> supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, and so I
> fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative Payee
> programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll force his
> will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in
> your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with
> whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other
> factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you
> manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you
> are
> doing well in trying to attain your goals.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jolting
> jacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl
> oose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  3 23:08:09 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:08:09 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <B079AB86AA504DD09410865374981058@victory2>
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds51CE97B60CE49778057A6D31B0@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the suggestions -- I'll give MyFax and RapidFax a look. 

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep  4 06:04:58 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 23:04:58 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>

What are the advantages and uses of the L.L.M. degree online or 
conventional? What is its marketability?
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gary melconian" <garymelc at msn.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] online LLM


> Hello Michael, that is true, the online llm's are accrediated by the ABA 
> and
> that is why they ar popular for that   reason, but the Jd is a new relm 
> and
> so that will take some time forh the folks at the accrediateing body to 
> get
> their heads around. So find the one you ar interested and go for it, if 
> you
> ar one of those who can study on your own and don't need a class
> environment, to get   you  motivated or performing any other tasks that 
> are
> involved in acquiring your education on line. I did go for my 
> certifications
> and I did not regret doing it online.So just do it and you wont regret it.
> Take care.
> Sincerely Yours:
> Gary Melconian, MBA, CPA and JD candidates
> Mobile: 818-731-3949
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Gilmore
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:31 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
>
> I've been reading all the recent posts on this listserv about online 
> j.d.'s.
> Currently, I work for the feds and am licensed in Virginia. I'm thinking
> about getting an l.l.m. I googled and there are several schools that offer
> online l.l.m.'s, the only one coming to mind being Boston University 
> (which
> if memory serves they have a pretty good reputation as a law school in
> general.) Has anyone out there received an l.l.m. via distance learning? 
> For
> those of you who have an l.l.m., would you recommend the traditional
> classroom or is distance learning a viable option?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/garymelc%40msn.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com  Sun Sep  4 19:18:55 2011
From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:18:55 +0100
Subject: [blindlaw] re spam on list
Message-ID: <CAGZitz+4DtHAKJtLQmjRb8Asd4mG1_q342Qhv1ip0XeSEeDGFA@mail.gmail.com>

I would be grateful if unsolicited ads were kept off this list.

-- 
Best wishes

Gerard Sadlier


From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  4 20:12:15 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:12:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbarc57ErTDam63xv91yx2eLgLHHe-KMFNb9h9wZT7-rEGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Good question.  The LLM provides additional education about a subject
of particular interest to me.  Additionally, I think it improves the
attractiveness of my resume.  My goal was to be an attorney for a
government agency.  Though I applied to numerous positions I was not
hired until the LLM was on my resume.  That could have been a
coincidence, or, it may have helped me get hired.  I will never know
for sure, but I surmise the LLM helped me get the job.



On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:04 PM,  <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> What are the advantages and uses of the L.L.M. degree online or
> conventional? What is its marketability?
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "gary melconian" <garymelc at msn.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] online LLM
>
>
>> Hello Michael, that is true, the online llm's are accrediated by the ABA
>> and
>> that is why they ar popular for that   reason, but the Jd is a new relm
>> and
>> so that will take some time forh the folks at the accrediateing body to
>> get
>> their heads around. So find the one you ar interested and go for it, if
>> you
>> ar one of those who can study on your own and don't need a class
>> environment, to get   you  motivated or performing any other tasks that
>> are
>> involved in acquiring your education on line. I did go for my
>> certifications
>> and I did not regret doing it online.So just do it and you wont regret it.
>> Take care.
>> Sincerely Yours:
>> Gary Melconian, MBA, CPA and JD candidates
>> Mobile: 818-731-3949
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Gilmore
>> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:31 AM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
>>
>> I've been reading all the recent posts on this listserv about online
>> j.d.'s.
>> Currently, I work for the feds and am licensed in Virginia. I'm thinking
>> about getting an l.l.m. I googled and there are several schools that offer
>> online l.l.m.'s, the only one coming to mind being Boston University
>> (which
>> if memory serves they have a pretty good reputation as a law school in
>> general.) Has anyone out there received an l.l.m. via distance learning?
>> For
>> those of you who have an l.l.m., would you recommend the traditional
>> classroom or is distance learning a viable option?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/garymelc%40msn.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Sun Sep  4 23:59:46 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:59:46 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
Message-ID: <1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>

Isn't it true that any individual could get a master's degree in law?  Or 
does one have to be a lawyer to go down that route?

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  5 00:33:33 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:33:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
	<1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbar+F8ybQ1Mr6DZnQZUn6d33F_pnAOWQ+eRg30s=XeVXbA@mail.gmail.com>

I think one needs to be a lawyer before getting an LLM.  I think, a JD
is a prerequisite to get an LLM, however, I know there is a one-year
post graduate degree in law that doesn't require a JD.  A psychology
professor that taught at ASU law school had one.  I can't remember the
name of that type of degree, though.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD,
Inc. <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com> wrote:
> Isn't it true that any individual could get a master's degree in law?  Or
> does one have to be a lawyer to go down that route?
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  5 17:20:25 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:20:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <BAY158-ds51CE97B60CE49778057A6D31B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds97912FF86B8D7D0B87B67D31D0@phx.gbl>

Follow-up: I looked into My Fax and the program seems to be accessible. However, the company retains all rights in the telephone number under the terms & conditions and reserves the right to reassign the number if you cancel service with them. I think other internet fax programs have similar policies. According to a MyFax rep, you can port your own number in if you have one before enrolling in the service and can port it out if you choose to discontinue your account. FYI


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Mon Sep  5 17:31:09 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
References: <BAY158-ds97912FF86B8D7D0B87B67D31D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9694C4D72AB341C7BB96611FEBDBF35F@hometwxakonvzn>

How much does it caust?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Will Miller" <william_t_miller at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program


> Follow-up: I looked into My Fax and the program seems to be accessible. 
> However, the company retains all rights in the telephone number under the 
> terms & conditions and reserves the right to reassign the number if you 
> cancel service with them. I think other internet fax programs have similar 
> policies. According to a MyFax rep, you can port your own number in if you 
> have one before enrolling in the service and can port it out if you choose 
> to discontinue your account. FYI
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Tue Sep  6 13:40:42 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:40:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Two Federal Atty postings
Message-ID: <02AE8F01B0414B69B54E719C66479D6F@mycomputer>

Neither posting had a URL that I could copy and paste into it as I usually do. Sorry about that.

Federal Bureau of Prisons Office of General Counsel Labor Law Branch Attorney-Advisor GS-905-13/14 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2011.

Assistant United States Attorney - Criminal Division United States Attorney's Office Middle District of Pennsylvania 11-MDPA-02 September 2, 2011 Position is opened until filled; however, resumes will only be accepted until September 12, 2011. 

 

From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Fri Sep  9 12:06:53 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:06:53 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. DOJ Atty posting
Message-ID: <83B87E3636634AAF82FFFE41EE0CEDE4@mycomputer>

Chief, ES-0905 Organized Crime and Gang Section Criminal Division U.S. Department of Justice Washington, DC Announcement #: 11-CRM- SES-02 Close: September 22, 2011. 

From fairall at shellworld.net  Sun Sep 11 22:02:35 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:02:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>

Hello:

I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. I'm 
renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.

To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have known 
this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told me. It is 
a bright yellow sign with black lettering.

I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have the 
sign removed. I have a few questions.


1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
Disabilities or some other act?
2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the facts 
straight.
3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? In 
my rough draft, I stated seven days.

4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly encourage 
them to remove the sign?

Thanks for any and all advice.



From billreif at ameritech.net  Sun Sep 11 23:53:03 2011
From: billreif at ameritech.net (Bill Reif)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the 
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks for any and all advice.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.net 
>
>


From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:18:20 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:18:20 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <C1D6651F-F39D-45B3-BDD3-567FBDEFF686@sbcglobal.net>

I wonder if you could make a case arguing just this--that the presence of the sign poses more danger to you than a theoretical driver might post some time in the future.  When, at Dartmouth in 1986, I found such a sign had been planted near my dormitory, I promptly uprooted it and, upon its third re-erection, dumped it, dirty post and all, on the dean of Freshman's desk and stated that, were it to appear again, I would be contacting my parents, who would be suing Dartmouth for discrimination against me.  The sign did not appear, but neither was a case won on my argument, so I am merely stating an anecdote...

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From paulharpur at gmail.com  Mon Sep 12 00:22:12 2011
From: paulharpur at gmail.com (Paul Harpur)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:22:12 +1000
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>

The council might think they are being helpful so I would start being nice
about it and just ask them to remove it.  
Considering this is a public post I could not suggest vandalising government
property by having some friends around for dinner one night, and then around
2 AM going across the street with friends with the appropriate equipment and
cutting the sign down.  I would further not suggest having a friend with a
car dispose of the sign in an industrial bin a few miles from your home.
Such direct action would of course be unlawful and should not be
recommended.








-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Reif
Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 9:53 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the 
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks for any and all advice.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.n
et 
>
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 00:22:54 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:22:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>

You might be able to argue that by placing the sign, the Village is  
providing a reasonable accommodation (a weak argument though) and that you have  
the right to refuse a reasonable accommodation under the ADA.  You might  
also be able to argue that by erecting such a sign, the Village is violating  
your right to confidentiality under the ADA (also a weak argument).
 
I suggest you contact Shawn Mayo, Executive Director at BLIND, Inc.  I  
believe that the City of Minneapolis recently put up signs similar to yours 
near  the training center, but Shawn, her staff, and the affilliate 
successfully  advocated to get them removed. Shawn's email address is 
_smayo at blindinc.org_ (mailto:smayo at blindinc.org) .
 
Good luck,
Ronza
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 7:53:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
billreif at ameritech.net writes:

I don't  know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure  that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area  may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much  objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some  special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more  concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various  sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for  someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind  them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would  have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description  in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City  remove its inadvertent way of making you a  target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie  Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of  Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family  residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the  town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly  across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a  friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a  bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting  City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I  have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered  discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other  act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of  
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the  
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request  that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven  days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would  strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks  for any and all advice.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for 
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.net  
>
>

_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com


From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 00:48:21 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>

Actually, I live on a quiet residential street. I take paratransit which 
drops me off right in front of my house. Making me a target for a criminal 
is a good argument for removing the sign. Is everyone saying that I have 
no legal basis for having it removed?



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:49:33 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:49:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
Message-ID: <1363C207-0B90-4D69-AC86-BCB7CAC4A6F0@sbcglobal.net>

*nods* I would seriously question whether one *should*, indeed, be "nice," to the people, since rewarding such unhelpful behavior, no matter in whose name or for what noble cause it is perpetrated, will only lead to its repetition, with equally disastrous, disrespectful, invasive and controlling results.  Nor, this list being of a legal content and nature, should it be suggested or entertained at any level or to any degree that it would be suitable to take a can of spray paint in your favorite Daglo color, and artistically and creatively alter the sign to reflect a more community-minded spirit.  It must not at all be implied much less boldly stated, that it might be only fitting to post a sign of one's own, in like mind decrying to the world some such statement about your neighbors as might describe their noisy bathroom habits, or, perhaps, odd noises made during the act of love...  Oh I could just go on forever.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:51:54 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:51:54 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>
References: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D3374F57-45B8-4BAF-B921-804612DAA0B9@sbcglobal.net>

Is an accommodation "reasonable," when it has not been agreed to by the person being accommodated?  My understanding of the term "reasonable accommodation," was that it was something agreed to by both the disabled person and the facility or employer or public sector whatever...

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:53:45 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:53:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <B7D16099-8BE5-427F-8FB1-F91976E13465@sbcglobal.net>

You don't  have to be there for the  rime to happen.  The sign marks you as a target; then the person gets to know your habits and targets yo based on the nature of the intended crime and your daily routine.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From langlois2 at verizon.net  Mon Sep 12 01:45:00 2011
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:45:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net> <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
Message-ID: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>

The sign may have been installed at the request of another blind resident or 
his/her family.
In my old neighbourhood, there was a "blind child" sign which was near a 
crossing I had to frequently make. How embarrassing.
Brian L.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Harpur" <paulharpur at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> The council might think they are being helpful so I would start being nice
> about it and just ask them to remove it.
> Considering this is a public post I could not suggest vandalising 
> government
> property by having some friends around for dinner one night, and then 
> around
> 2 AM going across the street with friends with the appropriate equipment 
> and
> cutting the sign down.  I would further not suggest having a friend with a
> car dispose of the sign in an industrial bin a few miles from your home.
> Such direct action would of course be unlawful and should not be
> recommended.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bill Reif
> Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 9:53 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
>
> I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm
> sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the
> area may be more cautious about hitting you.
>
> There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It
> signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look
> out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send
> criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the
> opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could
> thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their
> property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or
> even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please
> demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.
>
> cordially,
> Bill
>
>
> On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position.
>> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>>
>> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind
>> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have
>> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told
>> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>>
>> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have
>> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>>
>>
>> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with
>> Disabilities or some other act?
>> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of
>> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the
>> facts straight.
>> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed?
>> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>>
>> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly
>> encourage them to remove the sign?
>>
>> Thanks for any and all advice.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.n
> et
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net 




From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 01:54:12 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net> <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
	<90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112152060.18290@server1.shellworld.net>

No, I'm the only blind person on the street. If there were another blind 
person, it should be erected in front of their house instead of mine.




From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 01:56:14 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:56:14 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
	<90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
Message-ID: <A93EF1D5-28D2-433F-9E1B-125AEC5005E4@sbcglobal.net>

I would point out that no other class of citizen has a sign proclaiming their residency.  Oh, except for one--sexual offenders.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 02:11:54 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:11:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>

Not true.  There are often signs that notify residents that a deaf or  
"handicapped" individual is in the neighborhood.  Some villages erect them  
believing they are akin to the "children at play" signs that are often posted  
near schools and parks.  I suggest you contact the Village, as you  said, and 
ask why it's there first.  Then if you learn that it was put up  for you 
and not someone else (just because a blind person doesn't live on  your block 
doesn't mean one doesn't visit sometimes that you aren't aware of -  you 
said you moved there recently?), ask them to remove it.  
 
Also, consider contacting Shawn - she can help you craft any language you  
might need for a letter or demand that it be removed.    
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 9:57:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net writes:

I would  point out that no other class of citizen has a sign proclaiming 
their  residency.  Oh, except for one--sexual offenders.

Mark  BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:   Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
blindlaw  mailing  list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com


From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 02:44:15 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:44:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>

Other than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until this one where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation of the person for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of severely disabled children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I was not aware that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was appropriate.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 02:52:47 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:52:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <45981.524d5b11.3b9ecdff@aol.com>

I know of several who've done so in different places throughout the  
country.  Some State Transportation Departments even subsidize the cost of  such 
signs in the interest of promoting pedestrian and neighborhood  safety.  The 
City has the ability and arguably the right to erect signs it  viewes are in 
the public good.  We may disagree that this sort of sign is  for the good 
of anyone, but others might have differing opinions.  Whether  such a sign is 
legal is exactly at the heart of this discussion.
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 10:45:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net writes:

Other  than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until 
this one  where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation of 
the person  for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of severely 
disabled  children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I was not 
aware  that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was  appropriate.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:   BurningHawk1969
Home:   Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
blindlaw  mailing  list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com


From langlois2 at verizon.net  Mon Sep 12 02:55:45 2011
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:55:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>

Perhaps it is not legal. Maybe a local politician directed an employee at 
the Highway Dept. to make and install the sign.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Other than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until 
> this one where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation 
> of the person for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of 
> severely disabled children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I 
> was not aware that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was 
> appropriate.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net 




From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 11:01:26 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 07:01:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>

Folks,

This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
letter. Thank you for answers so far.



From blinddog3 at charter.net  Mon Sep 12 11:07:05 2011
From: blinddog3 at charter.net (Steven Johnson)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 06:07:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <001701cc713c$1b74fd10$525ef730$@net>

Leslie, there may be a city ordinance in place as I believe this was eluded
to previously.  If that is the case, some good education and advocacy is
essential.  Good luck with this and let us know the results.  

BTW, my neighbor has a 2-hour parking limit sign in the front of their home
which is allowed under city ordinance due to their mobility impairment.
However, they made the request which makes your situation all the more
eyebrow raising.

Again, the best to you,

Steve Johnson


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leslie Fairall
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 6:01 AM
To: Brian Langlois; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

Folks,

This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
letter. Thank you for answers so far.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.ne
t



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Sep 12 11:44:41 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 05:44:41 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <4e6df0c1.552fe70a.3f4b.1681@mx.google.com>

That's ridiculous!  A sign?  What?  That thing needs to go.  Bill 
had a good point.  When I moved into my place in Denver, nobody 
hung up a sign, and so people leave me in peace.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Reif <billreif at ameritech.net
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  
I'm
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers 
in the
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and 
can't look
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign 
would send
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish 
the
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  
I could
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or 
their
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a 
lineup or
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  
Please
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a 
target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
 Hello:

 I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another 
position.
 I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a 
month.

 To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says 
"blind
 person" directly across the street from my home. I would not 
have
 known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't 
told
 me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.

 I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to 
have
 the sign removed. I have a few questions.


 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans 
with
 Disabilities or some other act?
 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of
 discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get 
the
 facts straight.
 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be 
removed?
 In my rough draft, I stated seven days.

 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly
 encourage them to remove the sign?

 Thanks for any and all advice.


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40
ameritech.net



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for blindlaw:
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oose%40gmail.com


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Mon Sep 12 12:00:48 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:00:48 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>

Good Morning Leslie:
The research  necessary to determine if your situation constitutes 
discriminatory condutc by the city is something that I am not now in a 
position to do.
However, it is governmental activity - and the true question will center 
around the level of scrutiny that is required - Low, intermediate or strict.
IE:"Can a governmental entity do someting to, or on behalf of, someone 
without their knowledge or consent when it is more likely than not suad 
activity will place the recipient at rish?"
Would American Moslems appreciate having a sign put up at their home stating 
"Arams live here"? What about AFrican Americans, Hispanic Americans, 
Catholics, Protestants etc, etc - the list goes on.
Yes, in my view, they have stepped over a line in doing this.
Good research aimed at Title II of the ADA and the Rehab Act as well as 
other discriminatory legislation. I would also check witht he Human Rights 
Commission in your State to see about getting a legal opinion, and follow 
that up[ with a check on the Statutue of limitations for such civil 
litigation.
I do apologize  for not being able to give you more specific advice, I no 
longer have access to WestLaw or Lexis. You need legal advice from someone 
who knows the specifics of your situation, and is experienced with your 
State's laws and the local regulations.
Sorry I can't help more from here. Best of luck, and if you want to get some 
more specifics on how to approach this situation, give me a an email off 
line and I'll be happy to talk things over. I used to get situations ike 
this on my desk all the time when I worked with the the disability law 
outfitsof two states.
rumpole at roadrunner.com

Ross

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leslie Fairall" <fairall at shellworld.net>
To: "Brian Langlois" <langlois2 at verizon.net>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing 
List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Folks,
>
> This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
> THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
> a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
> a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
> the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
> letter. Thank you for answers so far.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11
> 



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Mon Sep 12 12:18:14 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:18:14 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminatory sign
Message-ID: <59CAA12644F24FE38063CC3643D33F98@mycomputer>

Good Morning Leslie:
The research  necessary to determine if your situation constitutes discriminatory conduct by the city is something that I am not now in a 
position to do.
However, it is nonetheless governmental activity - and the true question, in a federal sense, will center 
around the level of scrutiny that is required (in the S. Ct. reporter) - Low, intermediate or strict.
IE:"Can a governmental entity do something to, or on behalf of, someone, without their knowledge or consent when it is more likely than not such 
activity will place the recipient at risk?"
Would American Moslems appreciate having a sign put up at their home stating 
"Arabs live here"? What about African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Catholics, Protestants etc, etc - the list can definately go on.
Yes, in my view, albeit unresearched,  they have stepped over a line in putting up that sign.
Good research aimed at Title II of the ADA and the Rehab Act as well as 
other discriminatory legislation is certainly called for. I would also check with the Human Rights 
Commission in your State to see about getting a legal opinion, and make sure that includes a check on the Statute of limitations for such civil litigation in your jurisdiction.
I do apologize  for not being able to give you more specific advice, I no 
longer have access to WestLaw or Lexis. You need legal advice from someone 
who knows the specifics of your situation, and is experienced with your 
State's laws and the local regulations.
Sorry I can't help more from here. Best of luck, and if you want to get some more specifics on how to approach this situation, give me a an email off line and I'll be happy to  discuss it. I used to get situations like 
this on my desk all the time when I worked with the disability law 
outfitsof two states over the past several years.
rumpole at roadrunner.com

Ross

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leslie Fairall" <fairall at shellworld.net>
To: "Brian Langlois" <langlois2 at verizon.net>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing 
List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Folks,
>
> This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
> THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
> a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
> a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
> the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
> letter. Thank you for answers so far.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11
> 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11

From fairall at shellworld.net  Tue Sep 13 00:42:53 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
	<342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>

Hello everyone:

An update with the sign issue.

I contacted City Hall this morning and eventually spoke to the person who 
handles signs. He informed me that a nosy neighbor had emailed him to 
erect the sign! He was not aware that I did not give her permission to do 
so. The sign should be removed within a week. The lady from church comes 
on Wednesday night, so she will keep me informed.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. Hopefully this incident is over.



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Tue Sep 13 20:01:20 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:01:20 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03><Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net><342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>

Leslie, way to go!!  Hurrah!!  Keep up the good fight!!

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Tue Sep 13 22:31:21 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:31:21 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. attorney posting, Northern District of Illinois
Message-ID: <5CCC04917EB14E36AA9C87CD1E11A289@mycomputer>

  a.. Assistant United States Attorney (Asset Forfeiture) United States Attorney's Office Northern District of Illinois Vacancy Announcement Number: AUSA-NDIL-11-AF. Position is open until filled. 


From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 14 01:17:33 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:17:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
	<342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>
	<D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbaqyfOYQS-jkyhaaNQhDWWn071qrW2-jRH=bGCN5MioCsA@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto that.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD,
Inc. <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com> wrote:
> Leslie, way to go!!  Hurrah!!  Keep up the good fight!!
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Wed Sep 14 15:21:50 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:21:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] 2 U.S. Attorney postings, Eastern Tennessee no pay
Message-ID: <C30D9833AD1942E5976870CFB926480A@mycomputer>

        a.. Special Assistant United States Attorney (Serves Without Compensation) United States Attorney's Office Eastern District of Tennessee Vacancy Announcement Number 11-EDTN-10 Applications must be received by Friday, September 30, 2011. 
     
        a.. Special Assistant United States Attorney (Serves Without Compensation) United States Attorney's office Eastern District of Tennessee Vacancy Announcement Number 11-EDTN-09 Applications must be received by Friday, September 30, 2011. 
     



From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us  Thu Sep 15 17:49:06 2011
From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC))
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:49:06 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Looking for a contact
Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233865912A2EB@tiger>

Let me say at the outset, the this is about law only tangentially. I have a student who wants to go into court reporting. I am looking for a blind court reporter. Now I know that Sandy Halverson was in it years ago, and that Jim Bowen was too. I'm looking for someone who is doing it now.

Please feel free to contact me off list
David.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us<mailto:David.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us>
Or 608-758-6152. Thanks for your help.


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Sep 16 21:07:31 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:07:31 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk
	Airport
Message-ID: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how 
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Fri Sep 16 21:28:22 2011
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
	NorfolkAirport
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <001301cc74b7$8ff07740$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    There's a solution to both passing through scanners with guide dogs and 
very invasive pat-downs. It's called private air charter.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:07 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in 
NorfolkAirport


Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time,
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Flagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com 



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Sep 16 21:30:40 2011
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:30:40 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
 Norfolk Airport
In-Reply-To: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F1FA@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

This sounds frighteningly similar to an experience I had in May, when we
connected through Sky Harbor (Phoenix, AZ).  The only exception is that
I have some limited (very limited) vision in my left eye and thus use a
white cane, rather than a guide dog.  It was a horrible experience,
simply horrendous.  I am hoping that it is not repeated at our next
trip, when we will be connecting through Denver.  

I have the unfortunate feeling that many TSA agents are either NOT
trained in how to communicate with the public, particularly those with
vision or mobility loss, or that they simply do not care.  Litigation
may be the only way to get them to care. 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 2:08 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
Norfolk Airport

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I
usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that
my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might
have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I
have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my
email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal
Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped
to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA
manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working
with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper
steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I
received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that
time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to
the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on
how 
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and
passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before
entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my
guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in
my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to
grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a
result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility

> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening
the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded
to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab
the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe
location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the
scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then
finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance
traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second
time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through
the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm
and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was
very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that
she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself
and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from

> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained
to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of
us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with
the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have
any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.
I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants
strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my
pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I
was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down
my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog,
a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave
the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been
put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm
the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This
long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt
very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would
not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa,
I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my
phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception,
and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in
error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I
must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not,
and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my
guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was
I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where
I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this
again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a
place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without
your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the
TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have
taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary
for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done
to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the
proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was
involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be
reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not
there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear
that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of
lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the
consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future,
that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a
seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.
To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with
Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was

> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise
national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to
inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who
are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have
to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for
your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima
.gov




From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep 16 22:19:56 2011
From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:19:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA
	inNorfolkAirport
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
	<001301cc74b7$8ff07740$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <1D7AFB6658094520854848377E997B1F@HP8730notebook>

it's also much more expensive than a deal from southwest or expedia!

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA 
inNorfolkAirport


> Hello everyone,
>
>    There's a solution to both passing through scanners with guide dogs and
> very invasive pat-downs. It's called private air charter.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:07 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
> NorfolkAirport
>
>
> Does this man have a case? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
> To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
> Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually 
>> do
>> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
>> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
>> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
>> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have
>> the
>> same unfortunate encounter.
>> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
>> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
>> been  traveling
>> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
>> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal 
>> Director
>> in
>> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
>> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible
>> regarding
>> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager
>> of
>> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with 
>> me
>> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps
>> to
>> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I 
>> received
>> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
>> that
>> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
>> person
>> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
>> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no
>> further
>> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on 
>> how
>> I
>> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
>> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the
>> letter
>> below.  It reads as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>>
>>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
>> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my
>> guidedog,
>> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
>> checkpoint
>> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
>> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
>> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
>> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
>> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
>> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
>> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
>> without
>> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
>> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result
>> of
>> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility
>> tool
>> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and
>> therefore,have
>> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
>> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
>> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the
>> hand
>> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, 
>> as
>> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the 
>> scanner,
>> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
>> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time,
>> not
>> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
>> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
>> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
>> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
>> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
>> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
>> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
>> what
>> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
>> me
>> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
>> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the
>> dog
>> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
>> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I
>> was
>> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly. 
>> I
>> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
>> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
>> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to
>> take
>> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me
>> down,
>> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this
>> procedure
>> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
>> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
>> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost
>> originally
>> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
>> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
>> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been 
>> put
>> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm 
>> the
>> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
>> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
>> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
>> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
>> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my 
>> phone
>> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
>> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error. 
>> I
>> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I 
>> must
>> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
>> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
>> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
>> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
>> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
>> determine
>> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog. 
>> I
>> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
>> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
>> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me
>> during
>> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
>> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
>> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
>> was
>> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this 
>> again
>> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
>> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
>> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the 
>> TSA
>> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
>> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary 
>> for
>> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
>> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
>> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
>> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
>> in
>> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
>> The
>> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
>> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
>> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent
>> Sunday
>> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
>> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
>> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
>> manager.
>> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
>> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences
>> of
>> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
>> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
>> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a 
>> seminar
>> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
>> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
>> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
>> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was
>> told
>> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
>> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
>> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
>> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to 
>> inform
>> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are
>> not
>> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
>> time.
>>
>>    Sincerely,
>>
>>    Matt Weihmuller
>>
>>    MMP 2010
>>
>>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Flagdu mailing list
>> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Flagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net 



From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com  Fri Sep 16 23:30:48 2011
From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:30:48 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Problems with TSA in
	NorfolkAirport
In-Reply-To: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <8ABE9DE46480488BB4E48B14A832D717@RThomas>

Unfortunately, those of us who travel frequently could share any number of
horror stories.  It might be useful for the NFB to compile some of these
stories so that others are prepared for anything and everything. 

In recent trips from the airport in Orange County, I have learned that the
airport has people that assist the disabled to the gate. As a matter of my
own independence, I don't need these people. However, one purpose they do
serve is getting you through security quickly. These people are recognized
by the security screeners and that seems to speed up the process.

Another strange, and silly thing I have noticed is that I am treated
differently when I wear a suit and carry a briefcase, and when I dress
casually. This is obviously is a sign of ignorance,  but somehow many people
must think that I wear a suit and carry a briefcase, I must be able to
function as a human being.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

www.emplmntattorney.com

Follow me on Twitter:  EmplmntAttorney

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 2:08 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
NorfolkAirport

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how

> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
ail.com 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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om



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Sat Sep 17 13:04:21 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:04:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
	Norfolk Airport
Message-ID: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>

This is very unfortunate.  I previously worked at the Department of  
Homeland Security Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, and we provided  
such training to airport personnel as well as other DHS Components.  
 
Matt has the option of initiating a civil rights complaint at the  
headquarters level.  If Matt wishes to do this, he can send an email to 
_crcl at dhs.gov_ (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov) .  If he wants contact  information for people who 
can take his complaint, I can provide that to him  off-list.
 
I'll ask the list members to remember that this list is not intended to  
offer legal advice and assess whether a case has merit - we cannot give legal  
advice, as it may place list members and the National Association of Blind  
Lawyers in a position where we are subject to allegations of legal 
malpractice,  the unauthorized practice of law, and on and on.  However, this list 
is  intended to discuss the manner in which laws and practices affect the 
blind,  techniques for blind users to use while practicing law, and resources 
available  to blind attorneys and legal practitioners.  
 
 
Regards,
Ronza
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/16/2011 5:08:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com writes:

Does  this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt  Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To:  <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55  PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk  Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking  your time.  I usually 
do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it  is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list  today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA  security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and  educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate  encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday  September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was  returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for  the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my  
email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA  Federal 
Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as  I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and  critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the  matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA 
manager  
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously  working with 
me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take  the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen  again.  However, the last contact I 
received
> with Mr. Carson was  the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
>  he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the  
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore,  going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of  myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with  Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on 
how 
>  I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I  would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your  time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as  follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr.  Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am  writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating  experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of  Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the  Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and  
passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a  quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray  machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that  I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog,  having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume  that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my  situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my  mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>  agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to  
grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about  as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have  been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind  while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped  into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>  security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy  explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next.  I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and  expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to  assist guiding me to a safe location, 
as
> not to run into  anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the 
scanner,
> the  TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>  concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance  traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed  through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then  cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the  scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner,  and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>  directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was  very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she  licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good  dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began  to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA   supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to  be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
>  later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of  
us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact  with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I  stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I  did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a  man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  
I
>  showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>  during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my  pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure  which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then  commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it  away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands  and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>  underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while  this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have  control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability  regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female  agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my  dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I  stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was  then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that  my belt had been 
put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it  did not alert the alarm 
the
> first time I traveled  through the  scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time,  I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me  a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that  at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in  time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>  contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my  
phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's  inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must  have been in error.  
I
> explained the sequence of events as stated  above, and was told that I 
must
> have had some type of incidental  contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it  was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must  have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and  given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently  awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
>  determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with  my guidedog.  
I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow  true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.   Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error  or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I  realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I  previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat  unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or  exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this 
again
>  might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a  place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person  without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.   The agents at the 
TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this  matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what  exact procedure was necessary 
for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly  through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not  taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any  other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not  correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the  pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
>  The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran  into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that  it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the  responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train  those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind  should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not  had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This  greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>  advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of  lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that  the 
consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I  still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the  proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to  me again.  I recently attended a 
seminar
> given by a TSA  representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National  Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines  given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>  date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>  explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>  again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with  Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I  was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines  would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me  that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such  a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking  your time, however, I wanted to 
inform
> you of the situation in the  hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as  willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>  experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for  
your
> time.
>
>     Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>   MMP 2010
>
>    Phone:  813-541-4012
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing  list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com  


_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
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From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 17 18:30:27 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:30:27 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
 Norfolk Airport
In-Reply-To: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>
References: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbaqNGnaHWBdRdanDcyHDksP2UYurKDLxWSPwy-yCrnyTCw@mail.gmail.com>

I sincerely hope that TSA agent is fired.  People are such jerks
sometimes.  I hope you get justice.

On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 6:04 AM,  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> This is very unfortunate.  I previously worked at the Department of
> Homeland Security Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, and we provided
> such training to airport personnel as well as other DHS Components.
>
> Matt has the option of initiating a civil rights complaint at the
> headquarters level.  If Matt wishes to do this, he can send an email to
> _crcl at dhs.gov_ (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov) .  If he wants contact  information for people who
> can take his complaint, I can provide that to him  off-list.
>
> I'll ask the list members to remember that this list is not intended to
> offer legal advice and assess whether a case has merit - we cannot give legal
> advice, as it may place list members and the National Association of Blind
> Lawyers in a position where we are subject to allegations of legal
> malpractice,  the unauthorized practice of law, and on and on.  However, this list
> is  intended to discuss the manner in which laws and practices affect the
> blind,  techniques for blind users to use while practicing law, and resources
> available  to blind attorneys and legal practitioners.
>
>
> Regards,
> Ronza
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/16/2011 5:08:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com writes:
>
> Does  this man have a case? RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt  Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
> To:  <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55  PM
> Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk  Airport
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking  your time.  I usually
> do
>> not wish to post on this list, unless it  is absolutely
>> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list  today in the hopes that my
>> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA  security checkpoint in the
>> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and  educate others that might have
>> the
>> same unfortunate  encounter.
>> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday  September 2nd,
>> however, for some reason it did not post and was  returned to me.  I have
>> been  traveling
>> for  the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my
> email
>> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA  Federal
> Director
>> in
>> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as  I have been traveling and I hoped to
>> gather some comments and  critiques from as many people as possible
>> regarding
>> the  matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA
> manager
>> of
>> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously  working with
> me
>> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take  the propper steps
>> to
>> ensure that it did not happen  again.  However, the last contact I
> received
>> with Mr. Carson was  the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
>> that
>>  he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
>> person
>> did not fit my description.  He was therefore,  going to "go back to the
>> drawing board" to find the video of  myself.  I have currently had no
>> further
>> contact with  Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on
> how
>>  I
>> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I  would
>> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your  time.  Here is the
>> letter
>> below.  It reads as  follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr.  Horowitz,
>>
>>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am  writing you in regards to an
>> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating  experience I had with my
>> guidedog,
>> Daisy, the morning of  Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
>> checkpoint
>> in the  Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and
> passport,
>> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a  quick and
>> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray  machine.  Before entering
>> the scanner, I informed the agent that  I was traveling with my guidedog,
>> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog,  having her sit and stay while I was
>> cleared.  I can only assume  that I must have not been clear enough in my
>> communication as to my  situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
>> without
>> my  mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>>  agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to
> grab
>> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about  as  a result
>> of
>> my travel over the years, where I have  been asked to leave my mobility
>> tool
>> I.E. cane or dog behind  while passing through the scanner and
>> therefore,have
>> bumped  into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>>  security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy  explanation,
>> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next.  I proceeded to
>> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and  expecting to grab the
>> hand
>> of the agent on the other side to  assist guiding me to a safe location,
> as
>> not to run into  anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the
> scanner,
>> the  TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>>  concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance  traveling
>> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed  through a second time,
>> not
>> setting anything off, and was then  cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
>> travel through the  scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
>> scanner,  and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>>  directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was  very
>> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she  licked.  We then
>> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good  dog I have and that she
>> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began  to express that both myself and
>> Daisy were clear, when a TSA   supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
>> what
>> I perceived to  be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
>> me
>>  later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of
> us
>> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact  with the
>> dog
>> while she passed through the scanner.  I  stated that I did not have any
>> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I  did and promptly walked away.  I
>> was
>> then grabbed by a  man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.
> I
>>  showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>>  during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my  pants
>> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure  which I was
>> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then  commanded me to
>> take
>> off my belt and promptly snatched it  away from me.  He then patted me
>> down,
>> taking his hands  and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>>  underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while  this
>> procedure
>> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have  control of my guide dog, a
>> direct violation of TSA disability  regulations.  After the pat-down
>> procedure, the first female  agent, who was very polite and almost
>> originally
>> cleared my  dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
>> area. I  stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was  then
>> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that  my belt had been
> put
>> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it  did not alert the alarm
> the
>> first time I traveled  through the  scanner.  I would have strongly
>> protested, however, by this time,  I needed to go to the gate.  This long
>> procedure had caused me  a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
>> strongly that  at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
>> make it in  time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>>  contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my
> phone
>> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's  inception, and
>> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must  have been in error.
> I
>> explained the sequence of events as stated  above, and was told that I
> must
>> have had some type of incidental  contact with the dog after it passed
>> through the scanner, before it  was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
>> was told that I must  have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
>> reason to come and  given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
>> currently  awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
>>  determine
>> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with  my guidedog.
> I
>> would like to state that even if this is somehow  true, at no time was I
>> informed by any TSA agent of my error.   Furthermore, at no time was I
>> informed of the consequences of my error  or what would be done to me
>> during
>> the pat-down procedure. I  realize that this might normally seem
>> unnecessary, however, as I  previously stated, I am totally blind.
>> Therefore, it was somewhat  unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
>> was
>> standing or  exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this
> again
>>  might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a  place
>> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person  without your
>> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.   The agents at the
> TSA
>> checkpoint should have been trained on this  matter and should have taken
>> necessary action to state to myself what  exact procedure was necessary
> for
>> both Daisy and I to passs correctly  through the security checkpoint.
>> Furthermore, if such action is not  taken, such training should be done to
>> properly notify myself and any  other blind individuals of what the proper
>> procedure is should I not  correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
>> in
>> the  pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
>>  The
>> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran  into the
>> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that  it is not there
>> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the  responsibility of Agent
>> Sunday
>> or her superiors to train  those on what should be done should another
>> incident of this kind  should occur in the future. It is very clear that
>> Agent Sunday has not  had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
>> manager.
>> This  greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>>  advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of  lesser
>> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that  the
> consequences
>> of
>> such an incident could be severe.  I  still have not been given any
>> reassurance that should I follow the  proper procedure in the future, that
>> the same events will not occur to  me again.  I recently attended a
> seminar
>> given by a TSA  representative at the National Federation of the Blind
>> National  Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
>> guidelines  given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>>  date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>>  explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>>  again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with  Mr.
>> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I  was
>> told
>> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines  would compromise national
>> security.  It is again very clear to me  that agents are not adequately
>> trained for these situations, and such  a reeducation program is very
>> necessary.  I appolygize for taking  your time, however, I wanted to
> inform
>> you of the situation in the  hopes  that either myself or others who are
>> not
>> as  willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>>  experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for
> your
>> time.
>>
>>     Sincerely,
>>
>>    Matt Weihmuller
>>
>>   MMP 2010
>>
>>    Phone:  813-541-4012
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Flagdu mailing  list
>> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>> Flagdu:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw  mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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>


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Mon Sep 19 15:41:46 2011
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:41:46 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [DRBA] 2012 Brown, Goldstein & Levy,
	LLL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <C5072968D7A54222A8566196A995FF9C@labarre>

FYI
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Greg Care 
To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:18 AM
Subject: [DRBA] 2012 Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLL Disability Rights Fellowship


Hello everyone:

 

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first Disability Rights Fellow.  We are now accepting applications for our fourth annual Disability Rights Fellowship to begin in September 2012. The Fellowship offers a recent law school graduate or judicial clerk with a disability the opportunity to participate for a year in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland. Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer law firm devoted principally to litigation. The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2012. The application deadline is November 15, 2011.   Please visit our website for additional details about the Fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com. Attached are accessible pdf and Word versions of the application requirements.

 

Please feel free to pass this information along to individuals who you believe would be interested in a great opportunity to both gain experience and put their knowledge and drive to salutary use.

 

Thanks,

Greg

 

 

Gregory P. Care

Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP

120 E. Baltimore Street

Suite 1700

Baltimore, Maryland 21202

Phone:  410-962-1030 ext. 1316

Fax:  410-385-0869

gpc at browngold.com

www.browngold.com

 

Please consider the environment before printing this email

 

Confidentiality Notice

 

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the Addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!

 

REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. 
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From gpc at browngold.com  Mon Sep 19 15:55:59 2011
From: gpc at browngold.com (Greg Care)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:55:59 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Brown, Goldstein & Levy 2012 Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <F0078745BDA1D442B9BA19143FEA66CD59D7173004@BALT-X1-EXCH01.BGL.root>

Hello everyone:

I am a newcomer to the listserv, but I believe I know some of you from my work at Brown, Goldstein & Levy on behalf of the NFB. It is my pleasure to announce that the time has again come for me to begin seeking candidates for the Brown, Goldstein & Levy Disability Rights Fellowship. I would greatly appreciate it if you could pass long the following information to any recent law graduates with a disability who you think would be interested in this opportunity:

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first Disability Rights Fellow.  We are now accepting applications for our fourth annual Disability Rights Fellowship to begin in September 2012. The Fellowship offers a recent law school graduate or judicial clerk with a disability the opportunity to participate for a year in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland. Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer law firm devoted principally to litigation. The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2012. The application deadline is November 15, 2011.   Please visit our website for additional details about the Fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.

I have attached accessible pdf and Word versions of the application requirements. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Many thanks,
Greg Care

Gregory P. Care
Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
120 E. Baltimore Street
Suite 1700
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
Phone:  410-962-1030 ext. 1316
Fax:  410-385-0869
gpc at browngold.com<mailto:gpc at browngold.com>
www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>

Please consider the environment before printing this email

Confidentiality Notice

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the Addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!

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From taiablas at gmail.com  Wed Sep 21 21:08:46 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:08:46 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic
helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get
U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible
with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are
labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to
address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't
want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does
anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai


From rdittman at stmarytx.edu  Wed Sep 21 21:15:34 2011
From: rdittman at stmarytx.edu (Dittman, Robert)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:15:34 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>

Tai,

Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here in Texas.

What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.  Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.

Good luck,
Rob


Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu


From taiablas at gmail.com  Wed Sep 21 21:30:53 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:30:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to you about your
experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but my school
has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are only
somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
> thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here
> in Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working
> fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick
> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and
> then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you
> can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not
> rendered in an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
> Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping
> victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I
> tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can
> someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i
> really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of
> form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
> experience with immigration forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>


From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Wed Sep 21 21:30:44 2011
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:30:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I will also try to check on my system - we do public defense (juvenile), but because I also have a background in immigration issues, I occasionally have to pull forms for families to submit.  I had not thought about it before because JAWS has only recently become necessary - more soon.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dittman, Robert
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:16 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Tai,

Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here in Texas.

What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.  Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.

Good luck,
Rob


Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov




From rdittman at stmarytx.edu  Wed Sep 21 22:03:18 2011
From: rdittman at stmarytx.edu (Dittman, Robert)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:03:18 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
	<CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D57F@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>

Your direct email address did not come through, but I would be very happy to talk to you about my experiences.

In Texas, (not all states have this), after the completion of 45 hours of legal study, and after being approved by the state bar, you can be admitted as an associate member of the bar.  This means you are a "student attorney" and may practice under the direct instruction and supervision of another attorney.

Most times this is at your law school's legal clinic.  It rocks and provides valued experience.

Give me a call at 210 389 3388 and I will be happy to help or answer questions about the experience.

Take care, Rob

Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to you about your experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but my school has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are only somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the 
> same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of 
> Law here in Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be 
> working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is 
> still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word 
> form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last 
> resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of 
> the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
> Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil 
> Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any 
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized 
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail 
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic 
> helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. 
> When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are 
> labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to 
> address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't 
> want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does 
> anyone else have experience with immigration forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmar
> ytx.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail
> .com
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu


From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Thu Sep 22 00:24:32 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>

Hi Tai,
I have experience with the forms to which you are referring.  The  problem 
has been that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they  release 
a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you contact the  DHS 
Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at _crcl at dhs.gov_ 
(mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they were  working on helping USCIS make their forms 
508 compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my experience 
is that HQ tends to do a better job of  accountability.
 
Thanks,
Ronza
 
 
In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
taiablas at gmail.com writes:

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my school
has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are  only
somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also  a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
> thing in  the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law 
here
> in  Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12  seems to be working
> fine on most government forms from the SSA  although it is still no pick
> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word form 
and
> then filling out the forms as  well.  As a third and last resort option, 
you
> can always go to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just 
not
> rendered in  an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
>  Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
>  St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil  
Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX   78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
>  Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This  e-mail message, including any
> attachments, is for the sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
> review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are not
> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the  original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]  
On
> Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible  Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with  my school's legal clinic helping
> victims of domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with JAWS. 
When I
> tab through them, many of the  fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to  the way they are labeled. 
Can
> someone please outline what steps I  should take to address this problem? 
i
> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the burden of
> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
> experience with immigration  forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
>  Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com

From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 22 00:54:39 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:54:39 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <CAE4FD3F-D206-40FA-B0FE-AE284F3383F6@sbcglobal.net>

My government student loans (Stafford) all require that I fill out PDFS forms, which are inaccessible to me (from either Mac or Windows side, I've tried them both).  The organization itself only sends me print forms which I must have someone write on for me, thus needing to disclose financial information to that person.  I don't have rush a person readily available anyway.

The upshot of this is that \my credit has been very adversely affected by this; is there something I can use to persuade them to change the status quo?

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From taiablas at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 00:56:53 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:56:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>
References: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWmAZX6X2kda+yCVwv3mH_wYS717F_AdBOg3jSipEf6GoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the tip, Ronza!  I will report back to the list after I
make contact with someone at CRCL.

On 9/21/11, AZNOR99 at aol.com <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Tai,
> I have experience with the forms to which you are referring.  The  problem
> has been that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they  release
> a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you contact the  DHS
> Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at _crcl at dhs.gov_
> (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they were  working on helping
> USCIS make their forms
> 508 compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my experience
> is that HQ tends to do a better job of  accountability.
>
> Thanks,
> Ronza
>
>
> In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> taiablas at gmail.com writes:
>
> Rob,
>
> Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
> experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my school
> has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are  only
> somewhat accessible.
>
> On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
>> Tai,
>>
>> Are you also  a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
>> thing in  the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law
> here
>> in  Texas.
>>
>> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12  seems to be working
>> fine on most government forms from the SSA  although it is still no pick
>> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
>> Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word form
> and
>> then filling out the forms as  well.  As a third and last resort option,
> you
>> can always go to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just
> not
>> rendered in  an accessible form.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>  Rob
>>
>>
>> Robert D. Dittman
>> Student Attorney
>>  St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil
> Clinic)
>> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
>> San Antonio, TX   78228-3918
>> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
>>  Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This  e-mail message, including any
>> attachments, is for the sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
>> review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are not
>> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender by reply e-mail
>> and destroy all copies of the  original message.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Tai Blas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible  Government PDF Forms
>>
>> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with  my school's legal clinic helping
>> victims of domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
>> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with JAWS.
> When I
>> tab through them, many of the  fields are unlabeled.
>> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to  the way they are labeled.
> Can
>> someone please outline what steps I  should take to address this problem?
> i
>> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the burden of
>> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
>> experience with immigration  forms?
>>
>> Any information is appreciated.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>> Tai
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw  mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>


From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Thu Sep 22 02:03:50 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:03:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <3ea1d.3428b6d4.3babf186@aol.com>

Tai,
 
I contacted a former colleague there and am forwarding you his email  
off-list.  It has the info you need for the 508 coordinator at USCIS and  also 
the folks at CRCL's Office of Accessible Systems and Technology.
 
If anyone else needs this information, email me off-list and I'll send it  
on.
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/21/2011 9:20:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
taiablas at gmail.com writes:

Thanks  for the tip, Ronza!  I will report back to the list after I
make  contact with someone at CRCL.

On 9/21/11, AZNOR99 at aol.com  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Tai,
> I have experience with  the forms to which you are referring.  The  
problem
> has been  that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they   
release
> a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you  contact the  DHS
> Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at  _crcl at dhs.gov_
> (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they  were  working on helping
> USCIS make their forms
> 508  compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my  
experience
> is that HQ tends to do a better job of   accountability.
>
> Thanks,
> Ronza
>
>
>  In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>  taiablas at gmail.com writes:
>
> Rob,
>
> Email me  privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
>  experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my  school
> has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they  are  only
> somewhat accessible.
>
> On 9/21/11,  Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
>>  Tai,
>>
>> Are you also  a student attorney, just  asking because I am doing the 
same
>> thing in  the civil clinic  here at St. Mary's University School of Law
> here
>> in   Texas.
>>
>> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws  version 12  seems to be 
working
>> fine on most government forms  from the SSA  although it is still no pick
>> nick. I will be  trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
>>  Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word  
form
> and
>> then filling out the forms as  well.   As a third and last resort option,
> you
>> can always go  to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just
>  not
>> rendered in  an accessible form.
>>
>>  Good luck,
>>  Rob
>>
>>
>> Robert D.  Dittman
>> Student Attorney
>>  St. Mary's University,  Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil
> Clinic)
>> 2507  N.W. 36th Street
>> San Antonio, TX    78228-3918
>> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210)  431-5700
>>  Email:  rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This  e-mail message, including any
>> attachments, is for the  sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain  confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
>>  review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are  not
>> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender  by reply e-mail
>> and destroy all copies of the  original  message.
>>
>>
>> -----Original  Message-----
>>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Tai  Blas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
>>  To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible   Government PDF Forms
>>
>> Hi all. I am working as a  volunteer with  my school's legal clinic 
helping
>> victims of  domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
>>  Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with  JAWS.
> When I
>> tab through them, many of the  fields  are unlabeled.
>> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due  to  the way they are 
labeled.
> Can
>> someone please  outline what steps I  should take to address this 
problem?
>  i
>> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the  burden of
>> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues.  Does anyone else have
>> experience with immigration   forms?
>>
>> Any information is  appreciated.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Tai
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw  mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info  for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw  mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info  for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw   mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To   unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw  mailing  list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 22 16:02:12 2011
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:02:12 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Vacancy Announcement-Attorney Advisor (General);
 GS-0905-11/12/13  US Coast Guard
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED908B500070@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00

Job Title: Attorney Advisor (General); GS-0905-11/12/13
Department: Department Of Homeland Security
Agency: U.S. Coast Guard
Sub Agency: United States Coast Guard
Job Announcement Number: 11-2082-HQ-TE

SALARY RANGE:

$61,255.00 - $113,496.00 /year

OPEN PERIOD:

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 to Tuesday, October 04, 2011

SERIES & GRADE:

GS-0905-11/13

POSITION INFORMATION:

This is a full-time position. This is an excepted appointment limited to 2 years.

PROMOTION POTENTIAL:

13

DUTY LOCATIONS:

1 vacancy(s) in one of the following locations: Seattle, WA

WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:

Applications will be accepted from all U.S. Citizens. Position is in the Excepted Service.


JOB SUMMARY:
Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career?  If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling.  DHS components work collectively to prevent terrorism, secure borders, enforce and administer immigration laws, safeguard cyberspace and ensure resilience to disasters.  The vitality and magnitude of this mission is achieved by a diverse workforce spanning hundreds of occupations.  Make an impact; join DHS.

Apply for this exciting position to support the CG missions of safeguarding our Nation's maritime interests in the heartland, in the ports, at sea, and around the globe.

For over two centuries the The U.S. Coast Guard<http://www.uscg.mil/civilian/> has protected the maritime economy and the environment, we defend our maritime borders, and we save those in peril. This history has forged our character and purpose as America's Maritime Guardian - Always Ready for all hazards and all threats.

This position is located in the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Coast Guard, Office of Administrative Law Judges, in Seattle, WA.


KEY REQUIREMENTS:

 *   U.S. Citizenship is required.
 *   This position requires travel.
 *   This position requires a Secret clearance.



Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Duties
Additional Duty Location Info:

Seattle, WA

Coast Guard ALJs are responsible for conducting administrative hearings and issuing decisions for several different Federal departments and agencies, to include the Coast Guard, the Department of Homeland Security, the Transportation Security Agency, Customs and Border Protection, and the Bureau of Industry and Security.

The primary purpose for this position is to serve as an attorney/adviser providing assistance to an ALJ by conducting legal research and analysis of laws, regulations, case law, interpretations, and opinions;  preparing cases for hearing; developing case decisions; and responding to inquiries from parties and attorneys regarding procedures and case status.

Being a CG civilian makes you a valuable member of the CG team.  Typical work assignments include:

-Serving as adviser to an ALJ in preparation of cases.  Studies and analyzes case files; conducts a detailed analysis of the factual and legal issues involved; conducts legal research for cases and analyzes and studies the statutes, executive orders, regulations, and rules applicable to the cases heard by Coast Guard ALJs, as well as the Rules of Administrative Procedure as requested by the ALJ and the Federal Rules of Evidence.

-On own determination or as requested by the ALJ, prepare pre-hearing memorandum which sets for the facts and issues presented, procedural history of the case, evidence presented and any conflicts which may need further clarification.  On occasion, the attorney will be required to travel and attend administrative hearings and assist the ALJ with receiving evidence and coordinate witnesses, parties and court reporter to ensure the hearing is conducted fairly, fast and impartial.


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Qualifications and Evaluations
QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED:
In addition to the above:

To qualify for the GS-11 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; or

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) general understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law; 3) ability to research and analyze.

To qualify for the GS-12 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; and

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) provide analyses of laws and prepare cases for hearings; 3) develop case decisions; and, 4) general understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law.

To qualify for the GS-13 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; and

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) provide analyses of laws and prepare cases for hearings; 3) develop case decisions; 4) advising judges in preparation for cases; and, 5) Mastery level understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law.

Specialized experience is experience that has equipped you with the particular ability, skill, and knowledge to successfully perform the duties of this position and is typically in or related to this line of work.
This position has a positive education requirement.

All Candidates must possess a J.D. or LL.B degree from an accredited law school; AND, must be a member in good standing of the appropriate licensing authority of any state or the District of Columbia Bar.

If you are including education on your resume, report only attendance and/or degrees from schools accredited by accrediting institutions recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.
All qualification requirements must be met by the closing date of the announcement.

HOW YOU WILL BE EVALUATED:

Qualified candidates will be rated by comparing each candidate's qualifications to the skills and experience pertinent to the position to be filled. Experience, education, training, awards, and performance will be considered.  The following factors are of particular importance to the position to be filled, and applicants should provide specific detailed information in these areas as part of their application. These areas must be addressed in a document separate from the resume and submitted as part of the application package.

1.  Experience with administrative adjudication and the Administrative Procedure Act and Federal Rules of Evidence.

2.  Effective written and verbal communication skills.

3.  Knowledge of or experience with Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Personnel Enforcement statutes and regulations (46 USC 7701-7705, 46 CFR Part 5, and 33 CFR Part 20).

4.  The ability to provide advice to senior officials within the Coast Guard and other stakeholder communities.

NOTE: Qualified candidates may be invited for an interview.  Final selection will be made on the basis of relevant experience, education, training, performance appraisal, job-related awards, interview, and the skills and experience identified above.
To preview questions please click here<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/%20https:/jobs.mgsapps.monster.com/uscg/vacancy/previewVacancyQuestions.hms?orgId=1&jnum=81939>.


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Benefits and Other Info

BENEFITS:
DHS offers competitive salaries and an attractive benefits package, including:  health, dental, vision, life, and long-term care insurance; retirement plan; Thrift Savings Plan [similar to a 401(k)]; Flexible Spending Account; Employee Assistance Program; personal leave days; and paid federal holidays.  Other benefits may include:  flexible work schedules; telework; tuition reimbursement; transportation subsidies; uniform allowance; health and wellness programs; and fitness centers.  DHS is committed to employee development and offers a variety of employee training and developmental opportunities.  For more information, go to www.dhs.gov/careers and select "benefits."

OTHER INFORMATION:
Your application contains information subject to the Privacy Act (P.L. 93-579-5 USC 552a.) The information is used to determine qualifications for employment and is authorized under Title 5 of the U.S. Code, Sections 3302 and 3361.

Selection is contingent upon proof of U.S. Citizenship.

Applicants should be available for employment within 45 days of the date they were officially offered the position.

Please be aware that applicants will be required to complete questions contained on the Declaration for Federal Employment (OF-306)<http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/of0306.pdf> at the time a tentative job offer is made. If selected, at the time of appointment, selectees will be required to update the OF-306.  Certain responses on the form could pose a problem with suitability for employment determinations e.g., an affirmative answer to a conviction of a felony.

If you are selected for this position, you will be subject to a determination of your suitability for Federal employment.

Recruitment incentives may be authorized.

Males born after 12/31/59 and at least 18 years of age must be registered with the Selective Service System. Visit Selective Service Registration<http://www.usajobs.gov/ei/selectiveservicerequirements.asp>

Moving expenses will not be paid.

If selection is made below the full performance level, the incumbent may be promoted up to the target grade without further competition, if all
legal and regulatory requirements are met and when recommended by the supervisor.  However, promotion to the full performance level is not
guaranteed and is dependent on successful performance at the lower grade level(s).

All Federal employees are required to have Federal salary payments made by direct deposit to a financial institution of their choosing.

All selectees are subject to an appropriate investigation.

For Veterans' preference eligibility, visit Veterans' Employment Resources<http://www.fedshirevets.gov/>

.More than 1 selection may be made from this announcement if additional identical vacancies in the same title, series, grade, and unit occur within 90 days from the date the certificate was issued.

This is an excepted appointment not to exceed 2 years.  However, an extension is possible.

The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

All qualified applicants will be considered regardless of political affiliation, race, color, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, age, disability, or  other non-merit factors.

USCG provides reasonable accommodations to applicants with disabilities.  If you need a reasonable accommodation for any part of the application and hiring process, please contact 202-475-5269.  Decisions on granting
reasonable accommodation will be made on a case-by-case basis. Visit Reasonable Accommodation<http://www.opm.gov/disability/appempl_6-01-A.asp>


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
How To Apply

HOW TO APPLY:
Application packages for this vacancy must be received on-line by 11:59 p.m ET on the closing date of the announcement.

REQUIRED DOCUMENTS:
In order to receive full consideration, you must submit:

1. A resume or any other written format of your choice which clearly identifies the following information:
*Job Information-Announcement number, title and grade.
*Personal Information- Full name, mailing address (with zip code), email address if available, day and evening phone numbers (with area code), country of citizenship, veterans' preference, highest Federal civilian series and grade held, if applicable.
*Education- College or University name, city and state, major(s)and type and year of any degrees received.
*Work Experience- job title, duties and accomplishments, current and former (within the last 10 years) employers' names and addresses, current and former supervisors' names and phone numbers where available, starting and ending dates (month and year), hours per week, salary, and indicate whether your current supervisor may be contacted.
*Other Qualifications- job-related training courses (title and year), skills, certificates and licenses, honors, awards, and special accomplishments.

2. A copy of your J.D. or LL.B. transcript.

3. A legal writing sample, not to exceed 10 pages.

4. You will be required to submit proof of current membership, in good standing, with the appropriate licensing authority of any state or the District of Columbia prior to any formal job offer.

5. Information related to the skills and experience listed under the Evaluations section above, may be done on a separate document, or incorporate it within your resume.

You may find general application information and other forms at the website of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, www.usajobs.opm.gov.

None of the application documents will be returned.

In addition, the U.S. Coast Guard offers Career Transition Assistance Placement (CTAP) coverage to Attorneys within the Department of Homeland Security. Individuals who have special priority selection rights under CTAP provisions must be well qualified for the position to receive consideration for special priority selection. If you are eligible under CTAP, you must submit a copy of your certificate of surplus status, certificate of expected separation, or your specific Reduction-in-Force notice establishing your eligibility under CTAP, a copy of your most recent SF-50 noting current position, series, grade level and duty location. You must clearly indicate the grade from which you separated or declared surplus.

AGENCY CONTACT INFO:
USCG Applicant Support
Phone: 866-656-6830
Fax: 000-000-0000
Email: mgshelp at monster.com

Agency Information:
United States Coast Guard
1900 Half St., S.W.
JR-8-0807
Washington, DC 20593
Fax: 000-000-0000


WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT:
For information regarding the receipt of your application, you may call Robin Lewis at (202) 372-4445.

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From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Fri Sep 23 12:04:47 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:04:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] With which Immigration Forms are people having the most
	trouble?
Message-ID: <2db8a.6bd49cdc.3badcfde@aol.com>

Hi All,
 
I was able to contact someone at DHS and USCIS and they want to work with  
us to resolve the issues with the inaccessibility of USCIS forms.  Can you  
let me know which forms are giving you the most trouble and why?
 
So far I've noticed that there are several common issues among many forms - 
 that in general, form fields are often either not tagged properly or are 
not  tagged at all, radio buttons are sometimes not labeled, and checkboxes 
are  either totally confusing because of incorrect tagging or are devoid of  
tagging.  There also appears to be some extraneous form fields beneath the  
footer/revision dates of the form, and some radio buttons for certain 
questions  are scattered all over the page.  Also, there is no consistency in 
whether  checkboxes and radio buttons appear before or after the statement to 
which they  apply, so the user is confused as to which is the corresponding 
question.   Section headings are often nonexistent, and questions that ask for 
multiple  pieces of information about multiple individuals (e.g. list all 
children, dates  of birth, addresses, place of birth, gender, etc.) are not 
in a tabular  structure so there just appear to be a host of form fields 
without labels or  tags.  Finally, some of the tags for form fields are missing 
spaces between  words or have improper spelling.
 
 
So far, the forms that I've identified with some or all of these problems  
are the following:
- Form G-1145
- Form AR-11
- Form G-28
- Form G-325A
- Form G-635
- Form I-130
- Form I-34
- Form I-485
 
Please let me know the form number and title of the specific form and what  
the problem with it is with regard to accessibility.  Please also let me  
know if you are aware of any other access issues common among forms to  
supplement the list above.
 
Thanks,
Ronza
   
 
 

From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep 28 23:07:05 2011
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:07:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED908B500C18@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



From: Jennifer Carter [mailto:jenniferc at wsba.org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:00 PM
To: leeperthuynguyen at yahoo.com; asb at bmatlaw.com; aaron at glblaw.com; edelossantos at trueblueinc.com; castillo.mimi at ymail.com; asachs at wrenngroup.com; boksulee at yahoo.com; dko at kellerrohrback.com; lopezf at seattleu.edu; DavisJK at LanePowell.com; nicole at gaineslawoffice.com; rblack at susmangodfrey.com; bramirez at bpmlaw.com; efry at sisna.com; dclarks at co.pierce.wa.us; Aravind.swaminathan at usdoj.gov; ty.ho at hoassociates.com; DINHS at FOSTER.COM; MLe at perkinscoie.com; stuarpix at microsoft.com; Nightingale, Noel; Jessica.skelton at pacificalawgroup.com; zanabugaighis at DWT.com; kerem at melegal.org; milliek at nwjustice.org
Cc: aneelah afzali
Subject: Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney

FYI!

Jennifer Carter| Diversity Program Coordinator
Washington State Bar Association |* 206.239.2116 | F 206.727.8319 | * jenniferc at wsba.org<mailto:jenniferd at wsba.org>
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 600 | Seattle, WA 98101 | www.wsba.org<http://www.wsba.org/>


Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney
CAIR-WA seeks a qualified Staff Attorney to work in its Civil Rights Department

.

About CAIR-WA:  CAIR-Washington State is the local chapter of CAIR, the nation's largest Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization committed to building a stronger civic society and a more vibrant democracy.  Its mission is to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.  Learn more at www.cairseattle.org<http://www.cairseattle.org/> Our office is conveniently located near downtown Seattle just three blocks from Metro's International District tunnel station.



View our photos:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/49994784 at N05/sets/ <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyWBt5MvRO9IVSOZU9PtAWFOdATJ6yqqMFws8sn-X-xhBAzOkZuwE9BH7DSb-jw338Fp0QRd3LC2xlxz01kodY5JXtj3zKKyBkggqV93wr41I1KRKvYVYPpYzMTCQYL032VvYYMf2Wzsj_4uhqZuL-KH>
Watch our videos:  www.youtube.com/cairwashington<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyVBAkLqqLt6XyBPSnWyflYmOzMpn99tcNmoItGq5fVMVcXrlj6DYE_MrDfaWoLovoSbDef9EcvVwHGqzGy_PI2kQGeapDZfua5fiAhEYs2FSfKu1YZvRlFj> and www.youtube.com/cairtv  <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyX2vwfEegwdPSqMEXY2_RM-Ke1qznhKZlFQRO-o-aSNp4EwoEXraacle_RC42-mx9RSW9JO0rlqCx3ox3PwBIAnYUgtlZa-n2uqlwoPRLS7RA==>

RESPONSIBILITIES:
The Staff Attorney will engage in civil rights litigation and advocacy for CAIR, including but not limited to representing complainants who have experienced religious discrimination in negotiations with opposing parties; filing complaints, discovery, motions practice, court appearances, and trial if necessary; and identifying, recruiting, and collaborating with private attorneys on religious discrimination cases.



Religious discrimination may arise in areas including employment discrimination, police misconduct, government office discrimination, racial/religious profiling, school/university discrimination, immigration, family law, and defamation.



The Staff Attorney will be expected to identify, strategize and use creative legal solutions to address systematic issues affecting those who suffer discrimination in the full range of potential forums (not just litigation).  The Staff Attorney may also directly supervise the work of externs/interns in the department.

QUALIFICATIONS:

 *   Two-plus (2+) years litigation experience
 *   Familiarity with civil rights, employment law, immigration law, family law, criminal law, and constitutional  law
 *   Excellent oral and written communication and advocacy skills
 *   Strong ability to identify, recruit, and work with a number of private attorneys on cases
 *   Demonstrated commitment to protecting civil liberties in the United States
 *   High degree of initiative and willingness to work hard and collaborate with others
 *   Creativity, passion, determination, and a positive attitude
 *   Demonstrated organizational skills and ability to follow through on various ongoing and newly assigned case work
 *   Admittance to the Washington State Bar

Salary will range from $40k-$50k based on education, skills and experience. Benefits include paid holiday, vacation and sick leave.  Medical, dental, and vision benefits are offered after three months.



Application deadline is October 7, 2011.  Start date to be mutually determined.

Please submit a résumé, cover letter, two formal legal writing samples, and a list of at least three references.

CAIR - Washington State
9594 First Avenue NE, #272
Seattle, WA 98115
E-MAIL: info at cairseattle.org<mailto:info at cairseattle.org>

If applying via e-mail, please be sure to include the position title in the subject line.



Incomplete applications will not be processed.



CAIR-WA considers all candidates strictly on the basis of merit however Muslims are strongly encouraged to apply.



________________________________
________________________________




Forward email<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&m=1102055440418&ea=abukhari%40cair.com&a=1107652144186>

CAIR-Washington | 9594 1st Avenue NE, Suite 272 | Seattle | WA | 98115




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From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 04:10:44 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:10:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] News Story about Blind Federal Prosecutor Yusef Dale
In-Reply-To: <2e81e.72b62479.3b9016f2@aol.com>
References: <2e81e.72b62479.3b9016f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbarFrW7V=-ZedTJkRQzmSo6Ef0HbLeq3S+CGfLKt8O=ajg@mail.gmail.com>

That's a great story.  I want to be like him.

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:00 PM,  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> _http://www.wgntv.com/news/coverstory/wgntv-cover-story-yusef-dale-aug29,0,2
> 171165.story_
> (http://www.wgntv.com/news/coverstory/wgntv-cover-story-yusef-dale-aug29,0,2171165.story)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 11:43:03 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 04:43:03 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com>
	<996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
Message-ID: <34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>

actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent 
people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been found 
mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be 
prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never to 
make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may 
come in to play.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and 
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits 
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make: 
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move 
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen 
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you 
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding would 
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky remains 
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 15:34:58 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 09:34:58 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com>
	<996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
	<34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
Message-ID: <CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>

Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
Beth

On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
>> Hi Beth:
>>
>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding would
>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky remains
>> your limit!
>>
>> Wishing you the very best.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Olusegun
>> Denver, Colorado
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 15:48:57 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 11:48:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>

If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me,  The 
Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication would 
they not?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  1 17:47:17 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:17 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>

Hello list:
I am searching for an accessible online fax program. Any suggestions? I sampled e-fax and was not impressed with the accessibility.
Thanks in advance,

William T. Miller, Esq.

From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com  Thu Sep  1 18:27:49 2011
From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 11:27:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EB924E1C59EF4186AFE020D722989610@RThomas>

Try Rapidfax.com.


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

www.emplmntattorney.com

Follow me on Twitter:  EmplmntAttorney

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Will Miller
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:47 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program

Hello list:
I am searching for an accessible online fax program. Any suggestions? I
sampled e-fax and was not impressed with the accessibility.
Thanks in advance,

William T. Miller, Esq.
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40emplmnta
ttorney.com



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Thu Sep  1 18:35:35 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:35:35 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2>
	<34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
Message-ID: <798DCC6AC9ED4512AD19B80887F2B3CE@victory2>

I think we need to be reasonable in our discussion of the subject matter. 
The issue under discussion has NOTHING TO DO with mental incompetency.  The 
issue is whether or not a blind lady, in this case, Ms. Beth, has a right to 
marry a Somalian man.  Without mincing words, the answer is YES!

In the past, a medical test to rule out certain disease conditions was 
required here in Colorado and perhaps elsewhere in these United States.  If 
there is a medical condition that is transferrable from one partner to the 
other and eventually to their offspring(s) if any by way of marriage, the 
couple will be so advised.  The couple then reserves the right to terminate 
the relationship or continue with it.  Today, Colorado NO LONGER conducts 
such medical tests.  May be the couple involved can request one or each 
other, but this will have to be a private affair.  With this case, I don't 
see any extenuating circumstances that would prohibit Beth from marrying a 
Somalian man.  Bigamy, if proven to be the case, becomes a different issue 
and presents a different argument.  Nothing to suggest that this has been 
uncovered.

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Thu Sep  1 18:37:51 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:37:51 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
References: <BAY158-ds84348BD056F6FC55D0060D3190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B079AB86AA504DD09410865374981058@victory2>

Hi Will:

Try:

www.myfax.com

Or:

www.rapidfax.com

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado


From william.burley3 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 19:28:19 2011
From: william.burley3 at gmail.com (William Burley)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:28:19 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <4e5fdcbf.0591970a.2a03.0f99@mx.google.com>

This is an interesting conversation.  I am a bit confused though as I have
not seen the original post yet.  May be lost in spam folder.  What is this
issue really about...is it based upon blindness or mental compentancy?  I
think those two issues will make the conversation make better sense to me
becase at this point some are discussing the mental issue and others the
blindness issue.

Thanks folks!

Will every 

William Burley
(713) 551-8689
William.burley3 at gmail.com 

www.facebook.com/wburley3 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:49 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me,  The

Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication would 
they not?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40
gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu
r%40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/william.burley3%40
gmail.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 20:47:00 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike>
	<CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C545E26E19254A138F80F7AD97430FEA@spike>

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person 
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person did 
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not 
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where there 
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It is 
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age of 
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the 
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of 
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will still 
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a 
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these arguments. 
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent 
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that 
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their 
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances 
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>> found
>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>> to
>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
>> come in to play.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>
>>
>>> Hi Beth:
>>>
>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>> would
>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>> remains
>>> your limit!
>>>
>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Olusegun
>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  1 20:50:52 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:50:52 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <4e3bf1b6.4e592a0a.2f41.ffffc70c@mx.google.com><996B9D8EA5EA414EA04A7FDCFCB16C73@victory2><34AD132702094FD598A46DC633DF8A4D@spike><CAOAY6p0uikQ4bYm5C4zcty4C9mWdxQwiZxyCkWfaqsXm5fyvzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<29E7B2AF6F36428D9303256944D9B764@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <C5C8C0A537624B888F961F5544D9BF46@spike>

that could carry some wait in the decision and she it would be necessary to 
prove otherwise to reverse the findings of incompetency.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> If Jane were found to be incompetent in Florida from what was  told me, 
> The Colorado people could probley prohibit her  from marrying, because a 
> Colorado judge would have to abide by Florida's order of adjudication 
> would they not?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
>> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
>> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
>> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that 
>>> prevent
>>> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been 
>>> found
>>> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
>>> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never 
>>> to
>>> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that 
>>> may
>>> come in to play.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc." 
>>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Beth:
>>>>
>>>> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, 
>>>> and
>>>> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
>>>> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
>>>> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can 
>>>> move
>>>> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely 
>>>> happen
>>>> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
>>>> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding 
>>>> would
>>>> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky 
>>>> remains
>>>> your limit!
>>>>
>>>> Wishing you the very best.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Olusegun
>>>> Denver, Colorado
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 23:34:17 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:34:17 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>

This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to 
sexual relations with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no 
way there is going to be any kind of thing dealing with 
"providing for" me.  Deq does not have to provide for me.  We 
will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if you know 
what I mean.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person did
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where there
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It is
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age of
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could 
make the
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will still
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
arguments.
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net



 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com


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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net


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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
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sisloose%40gmail.com


From blinddog3 at charter.net  Thu Sep  1 23:53:16 2011
From: blinddog3 at charter.net (Steven Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 18:53:16 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
References: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <003901cc6902$519b11f0$f4d135d0$@net>

Hi everyone,
I am just watching this thread and will take the opportunity to introduce
myself.  I am not an attorney, or legal expert, but have always been
fascinated by civil rights law.  

Now, with the situation that Beth ahs been describing, wouldn't
guardianship, protective placement  or a chapter commitment be one of those
circumstances?

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Beth
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to 
sexual relations with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no 
way there is going to be any kind of thing dealing with 
"providing for" me.  Deq does not have to provide for me.  We 
will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if you know 
what I mean.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person did
not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where there
has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It is
also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age of
consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could 
make the
argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will still
try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
arguments.
This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net



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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com


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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
n%40sbcglobal.net


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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
sisloose%40gmail.com

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blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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r.net



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep  2 03:05:26 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
References: <4e60167e.4609440a.3ab3.06b2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8F9545270E4F4760900BFCC608801B1E@spike>

The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in 
your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with 
whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other 
factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you 
manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you are 
doing well in trying to attain your goals.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent 
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations 
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be 
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to 
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if 
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person 
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where 
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It 
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age 
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will 
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these 
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
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>
>
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>
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> blindlaw:
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 03:46:55 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 21:46:55 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e6051b5.4b13e70a.6319.2677@mx.google.com>

Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use 
financial supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit 
card, and so I fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial 
Represntative Payee programs, of which I have no intrerest, but 
I'm afraid he'll force his will on me.  This is something I can't 
accept.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to 
engage in
your regular daily activities and show that you are following 
through with
whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The 
other
factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how 
well you
manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds 
like you are
doing well in trying to attain your goals.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent
 adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual 
relations
 with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is 
going to be
 any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not 
have to
 provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of 
things, if
 you know what I mean.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
 would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person
 did
 not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
 understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where
 there
 has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It
 is
 also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age
 of
 consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they 
could make the
 argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
 providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will
 still
 try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
 disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for 
these
 arguments.
 This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
 case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
 were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
 new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
 but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:

 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
 n%40sbcglobal.net



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info for
 blindlaw:

 
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 sisloose%40gmail.com


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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:

 
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 n%40sbcglobal.net


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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:
 
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 sisloose%40gmail.com

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 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:
 
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 14:39:26 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
References: <4e6051b5.4b13e70a.6319.2677@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5A3700BA40F74167BBC1AECDD3C60BDA@hometwxakonvzn>

Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is your 
guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to say it but 
theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida case, and if 
you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm sorry, but 
you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an attorney, but this 
is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face reality that 
as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be able to 
marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying to be cruel 
or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They do not, 
and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida based on 
blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he told me that 
it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use financial 
> supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, and so I 
> fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative Payee 
> programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll force his 
> will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in
> your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with
> whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other
> factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you
> manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you 
> are
> doing well in trying to attain your goals.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
> 



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Fri Sep  2 16:11:34 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:11:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions - Taking legal advice requests
	off-list
Message-ID: <37e85.67df28bd.3b925a35@aol.com>

Hi All,
 
This thread has had some very interesting discussions about the legality of 
 prohibiting the blind from marrying.  Those portions of the conversation  
have been on-topic with regard to staying within the framework of the list, 
e.g.  laws that impact the blind differently than sighted counterparts.
 
However, this list is not intended to be a forum to discuss personal legal  
advice or personal challenges faced by list members outside of the  
practice of law.  
 
If individuals are interested in continuing the conversation with Beth and  
wish to offer her advice, please email her off-list to do so.
 
Thank you,
Ronza
 
 
 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 18:57:29 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:57:29 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
Message-ID: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>

Well, I care for myself right now in Colorado, and Dad doesn't 
see that.  I have to be absolutely sure that CCDC in Colorado, 
the Cross-Disability Coalition, can work with the Florida system 
and get rid of it.  The prevention of marriage was based in part 
due to parent child conflict, and then they said I had to make 
changes.  Whuat changes I don't know, but Deq has nearly broken 
up with me a bunch of times over this, so it is grounds for 
getting rid of it.  I've needed help trying for months and 
perhaps years.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is 
your
guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to 
say it but
theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida 
case, and if
you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm 
sorry, but
you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an 
attorney, but this
is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face 
reality that
as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be 
able to
marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying 
to be cruel
or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They 
do not,
and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida 
based on
blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he 
told me that
it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use 
financial
 supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, 
and so I
 fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative 
Payee
 programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll 
force his
 will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to 
engage in
 your regular daily activities and show that you are following 
through with
 whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The 
other
 factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how 
well you
 manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds 
like you
 are
 doing well in trying to attain your goals.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a 
competent
 adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual 
relations
 with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is 
going to be
 any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not 
have to
 provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of 
things, if
 you know what I mean.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions

 Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a 
person
 would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the 
person
 did
 not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they 
did not
 understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times 
where
 there
 has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental 
retardation. It
 is
 also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached 
the age
 of
 consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they 
could make the
 argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable 
of
 providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families 
will
 still
 try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there 
is a
 disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for 
these
 arguments.
 This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was 
the recent
 case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in 
Missouri that
 were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise 
their
 new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your 
circumstances
 but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you 
prevent a
 blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
 because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
 Beth

 On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:
 actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances 
that prevent
 people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person 
has been
 found
 mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person 
may be
 prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is 
best never
 to
 make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors 
that may
 come in to play.
 Chuck
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
 <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
 To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


 Hi Beth:

 There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 
1865, and
 the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that 
prohibits
 you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to 
make:
 You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you 
can move
 on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may 
likely happen
 is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question 
you
 should ask yourself is how important their presence at your 
wedding
 would
 be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the 
sky
 remains
 your limit!

 Wishing you the very best.

 Sincerely,
 Olusegun
 Denver, Colorado

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:


 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
 n%40sbcglobal.net



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 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:


 
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 sisloose%40gmail.com


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 blindlaw:


 
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 n%40sbcglobal.net


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 blindlaw:

 
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 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
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From kdbenterprises at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  2 21:29:56 2011
From: kdbenterprises at yahoo.com (kdb)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1314998996.5510.YahooMailMobile@web161513.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

http://onsitesupply.ca/indexty120.php

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sat Sep  3 03:19:18 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:19:18 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] some questions
In-Reply-To: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>
References: <4e61271f.8275e70a.54ee.ffffc0e6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <10D3A7DDAE90430985A01CBE28C296C1@spike>

You need to find an attorney in Colorado that specializes in probate matters 
of guardianship that can research the specific law regarding periodic review 
of conservatorships. If you were found mentally incompetent by a court you 
were most likely placed on some form of conservatorship. In most states 
conservatees have the right to have their status reviewed by the court 
periodically as people's conditions and circumstances change. Not working in 
Colorado or Florida and not being familiar with the specific laws I can't 
offer any other suggestion for you to resolve this. In many cities the local 
bar association provides a lawyer referral service where for a nominal fee 
you can get a consultation with an attorney specializing in a particular 
area of law. After the consultation you would then negotiate with the 
attorney if they are interested in handling your case with regard to legal 
fees and other requirements.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions


> Well, I care for myself right now in Colorado, and Dad doesn't see that. 
> I have to be absolutely sure that CCDC in Colorado, the Cross-Disability 
> Coalition, can work with the Florida system and get rid of it.  The 
> prevention of marriage was based in part due to parent child conflict, and 
> then they said I had to make changes.  Whuat changes I don't know, but Deq 
> has nearly broken up with me a bunch of times over this, so it is grounds 
> for getting rid of it.  I've needed help trying for months and perhaps 
> years.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:39:26 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Beth, You were declared incompetent by a court, and your dad is your
> guardian. Correct? That is what you told me correct? I hate to say it but
> theirs nothing Colorado can do really because this is a Florida case, and 
> if
> you did try to get married in Colorado, the judge would say, "I'm sorry, 
> but
> you have an incapacitation order in Florida." I am not an attorney, but 
> this
> is common sense. I hate to be this blunt, but you need to face reality 
> that
> as long as you have this hanging over your head, you will, not be able to
> marry Deq or anybody for that matter. Again Beth, I'm not trying to be 
> cruel
> or mean, but it seems you do not understand what this means. They do not,
> and they can not declare someone to be incompetent in Florida based on
> blindness alone. I have a Friend who is a county judge, and he told me 
> that
> it is based on a persons mental capacity to care for themselves.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Right.  The thing is my dad has been trying to force me to use financial
> supports like this financial manager who jacked my dbit card, and so I
> fired her.  Dad was then told about Financial Represntative Payee
> programs, of which I have no intrerest, but I'm afraid he'll force his
> will on me.  This is something I can't accept.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:05:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> The important thing to continue to prove this is to continue to engage in
> your regular daily activities and show that you are following through with
> whatever schooling or work program that you are considering. The other
> factor that a court looks at in determining competency is how well you
> manage your finances and daily living activities and it soulds like you
> are
> doing well in trying to attain your goals.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> This is so true.  I'm trying to prove to judges that I m a competent
> adult, and so we know, I did and am able to consent to sexual relations
> with the man I intend to marry.  So there's no way there is going to be
> any kind of thing dealing with "providing for" me.  Deq does not have to
> provide for me.  We will simply have to let Allah take care of things, if
> you know what I mean.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:47:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
> Theoretically they could not necessarily use the argument that a person
> would be blind. They would have to use arguments saying that the person
> did
> not have the capacity to enter in to a marriage contract as they did not
> understand what was involved in marriage. This is done at times where
> there
> has been documented evidence of mental illness or mental retardation. It
> is
> also done in cases where a party to the marriage has not reached the age
> of
> consent. While I don't know the specific circumstances they could make the
> argument that the person that you intend to marry is not capable of
> providing for you and meeting your needs. Unfortunately families will
> still
> try to try some strange angles to prevent a marriage where there is a
> disabled party involved and judges will some times fall for these
> arguments.
> This applies to other matters in family law as well. There was the recent
> case where NFB had to intervene on behalf of the couple in Missouri that
> were told by Child Protective Services that they could not raise their
> new-born infant. This does not mean it would happen in your circumstances
> but these are possibilities that can sometimes occur.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Like what extenuating circumstances are there?  How can you prevent a
> blind person from marrying?  In CO, they couldn't do this to me
> because Deq isn't taking advantage of me.
> Beth
>
> On 9/1/11, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> actually, in some cases there are laws in rare circumstances that prevent
> people from marrying in this country. In cases where a person has been
> found
> mentally incompetent or if they are under a certain age a person may be
> prohibited from marrying. In reviewing and studying law it is best never
> to
> make a blanket statement as there are always extenuating factors that may
> come in to play.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] some questions
>
>
> Hi Beth:
>
> There is no law, especially since slavery was abolished around 1865, and
> the Civil Rights Act became the law of the land in 1964, that prohibits
> you from marrying whomsoever you choose.  The choice is yours to make:
> You can pander to the dictates of the folks bugging you, or you can move
> on and marry the individual you're in love with.  What may likely happen
> is that these folks won't show up at your wedding.  The question you
> should ask yourself is how important their presence at your wedding
> would
> be.  Hence, as an adult that's capable of making choices, the sky
> remains
> your limit!
>
> Wishing you the very best.
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugma
> n%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theblue
> sisloose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jolting
> jacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> oose%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  3 23:08:09 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:08:09 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <B079AB86AA504DD09410865374981058@victory2>
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds51CE97B60CE49778057A6D31B0@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the suggestions -- I'll give MyFax and RapidFax a look. 

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep  4 06:04:58 2011
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 23:04:58 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>

What are the advantages and uses of the L.L.M. degree online or 
conventional? What is its marketability?
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gary melconian" <garymelc at msn.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] online LLM


> Hello Michael, that is true, the online llm's are accrediated by the ABA 
> and
> that is why they ar popular for that   reason, but the Jd is a new relm 
> and
> so that will take some time forh the folks at the accrediateing body to 
> get
> their heads around. So find the one you ar interested and go for it, if 
> you
> ar one of those who can study on your own and don't need a class
> environment, to get   you  motivated or performing any other tasks that 
> are
> involved in acquiring your education on line. I did go for my 
> certifications
> and I did not regret doing it online.So just do it and you wont regret it.
> Take care.
> Sincerely Yours:
> Gary Melconian, MBA, CPA and JD candidates
> Mobile: 818-731-3949
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Gilmore
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:31 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
>
> I've been reading all the recent posts on this listserv about online 
> j.d.'s.
> Currently, I work for the feds and am licensed in Virginia. I'm thinking
> about getting an l.l.m. I googled and there are several schools that offer
> online l.l.m.'s, the only one coming to mind being Boston University 
> (which
> if memory serves they have a pretty good reputation as a law school in
> general.) Has anyone out there received an l.l.m. via distance learning? 
> For
> those of you who have an l.l.m., would you recommend the traditional
> classroom or is distance learning a viable option?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/garymelc%40msn.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com  Sun Sep  4 19:18:55 2011
From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:18:55 +0100
Subject: [blindlaw] re spam on list
Message-ID: <CAGZitz+4DtHAKJtLQmjRb8Asd4mG1_q342Qhv1ip0XeSEeDGFA@mail.gmail.com>

I would be grateful if unsolicited ads were kept off this list.

-- 
Best wishes

Gerard Sadlier


From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  4 20:12:15 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:12:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbarc57ErTDam63xv91yx2eLgLHHe-KMFNb9h9wZT7-rEGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Good question.  The LLM provides additional education about a subject
of particular interest to me.  Additionally, I think it improves the
attractiveness of my resume.  My goal was to be an attorney for a
government agency.  Though I applied to numerous positions I was not
hired until the LLM was on my resume.  That could have been a
coincidence, or, it may have helped me get hired.  I will never know
for sure, but I surmise the LLM helped me get the job.



On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:04 PM,  <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> What are the advantages and uses of the L.L.M. degree online or
> conventional? What is its marketability?
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "gary melconian" <garymelc at msn.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] online LLM
>
>
>> Hello Michael, that is true, the online llm's are accrediated by the ABA
>> and
>> that is why they ar popular for that   reason, but the Jd is a new relm
>> and
>> so that will take some time forh the folks at the accrediateing body to
>> get
>> their heads around. So find the one you ar interested and go for it, if
>> you
>> ar one of those who can study on your own and don't need a class
>> environment, to get   you  motivated or performing any other tasks that
>> are
>> involved in acquiring your education on line. I did go for my
>> certifications
>> and I did not regret doing it online.So just do it and you wont regret it.
>> Take care.
>> Sincerely Yours:
>> Gary Melconian, MBA, CPA and JD candidates
>> Mobile: 818-731-3949
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Gilmore
>> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:31 AM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
>>
>> I've been reading all the recent posts on this listserv about online
>> j.d.'s.
>> Currently, I work for the feds and am licensed in Virginia. I'm thinking
>> about getting an l.l.m. I googled and there are several schools that offer
>> online l.l.m.'s, the only one coming to mind being Boston University
>> (which
>> if memory serves they have a pretty good reputation as a law school in
>> general.) Has anyone out there received an l.l.m. via distance learning?
>> For
>> those of you who have an l.l.m., would you recommend the traditional
>> classroom or is distance learning a viable option?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/garymelc%40msn.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Sun Sep  4 23:59:46 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:59:46 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
Message-ID: <1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>

Isn't it true that any individual could get a master's degree in law?  Or 
does one have to be a lawyer to go down that route?

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  5 00:33:33 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:33:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] online LLM
In-Reply-To: <1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>
References: <1312824663.70349.YahooMailClassic@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY148-ds2A6AFA2A759502EDA79FECF210@phx.gbl>
	<346667C21D6344EFB2EECDAD932755D8@spike>
	<1EA1CAC07EA6483B92DD1E150CB9E536@valtd>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbar+F8ybQ1Mr6DZnQZUn6d33F_pnAOWQ+eRg30s=XeVXbA@mail.gmail.com>

I think one needs to be a lawyer before getting an LLM.  I think, a JD
is a prerequisite to get an LLM, however, I know there is a one-year
post graduate degree in law that doesn't require a JD.  A psychology
professor that taught at ASU law school had one.  I can't remember the
name of that type of degree, though.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD,
Inc. <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com> wrote:
> Isn't it true that any individual could get a master's degree in law?  Or
> does one have to be a lawyer to go down that route?
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From william_t_miller at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  5 17:20:25 2011
From: william_t_miller at hotmail.com (Will Miller)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:20:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
In-Reply-To: <BAY158-ds51CE97B60CE49778057A6D31B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY158-ds97912FF86B8D7D0B87B67D31D0@phx.gbl>

Follow-up: I looked into My Fax and the program seems to be accessible. However, the company retains all rights in the telephone number under the terms & conditions and reserves the right to reassign the number if you cancel service with them. I think other internet fax programs have similar policies. According to a MyFax rep, you can port your own number in if you have one before enrolling in the service and can port it out if you choose to discontinue your account. FYI


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Mon Sep  5 17:31:09 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program
References: <BAY158-ds97912FF86B8D7D0B87B67D31D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9694C4D72AB341C7BB96611FEBDBF35F@hometwxakonvzn>

How much does it caust?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Will Miller" <william_t_miller at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] (OT) accessible online fax program


> Follow-up: I looked into My Fax and the program seems to be accessible. 
> However, the company retains all rights in the telephone number under the 
> terms & conditions and reserves the right to reassign the number if you 
> cancel service with them. I think other internet fax programs have similar 
> policies. According to a MyFax rep, you can port your own number in if you 
> have one before enrolling in the service and can port it out if you choose 
> to discontinue your account. FYI
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Tue Sep  6 13:40:42 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:40:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Two Federal Atty postings
Message-ID: <02AE8F01B0414B69B54E719C66479D6F@mycomputer>

Neither posting had a URL that I could copy and paste into it as I usually do. Sorry about that.

Federal Bureau of Prisons Office of General Counsel Labor Law Branch Attorney-Advisor GS-905-13/14 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2011.

Assistant United States Attorney - Criminal Division United States Attorney's Office Middle District of Pennsylvania 11-MDPA-02 September 2, 2011 Position is opened until filled; however, resumes will only be accepted until September 12, 2011. 

 

From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Fri Sep  9 12:06:53 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:06:53 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. DOJ Atty posting
Message-ID: <83B87E3636634AAF82FFFE41EE0CEDE4@mycomputer>

Chief, ES-0905 Organized Crime and Gang Section Criminal Division U.S. Department of Justice Washington, DC Announcement #: 11-CRM- SES-02 Close: September 22, 2011. 

From fairall at shellworld.net  Sun Sep 11 22:02:35 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:02:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>

Hello:

I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. I'm 
renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.

To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have known 
this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told me. It is 
a bright yellow sign with black lettering.

I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have the 
sign removed. I have a few questions.


1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
Disabilities or some other act?
2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the facts 
straight.
3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? In 
my rough draft, I stated seven days.

4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly encourage 
them to remove the sign?

Thanks for any and all advice.



From billreif at ameritech.net  Sun Sep 11 23:53:03 2011
From: billreif at ameritech.net (Bill Reif)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the 
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks for any and all advice.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.net 
>
>


From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:18:20 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:18:20 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <C1D6651F-F39D-45B3-BDD3-567FBDEFF686@sbcglobal.net>

I wonder if you could make a case arguing just this--that the presence of the sign poses more danger to you than a theoretical driver might post some time in the future.  When, at Dartmouth in 1986, I found such a sign had been planted near my dormitory, I promptly uprooted it and, upon its third re-erection, dumped it, dirty post and all, on the dean of Freshman's desk and stated that, were it to appear again, I would be contacting my parents, who would be suing Dartmouth for discrimination against me.  The sign did not appear, but neither was a case won on my argument, so I am merely stating an anecdote...

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From paulharpur at gmail.com  Mon Sep 12 00:22:12 2011
From: paulharpur at gmail.com (Paul Harpur)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:22:12 +1000
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>

The council might think they are being helpful so I would start being nice
about it and just ask them to remove it.  
Considering this is a public post I could not suggest vandalising government
property by having some friends around for dinner one night, and then around
2 AM going across the street with friends with the appropriate equipment and
cutting the sign down.  I would further not suggest having a friend with a
car dispose of the sign in an industrial bin a few miles from your home.
Such direct action would of course be unlawful and should not be
recommended.








-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Reif
Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 9:53 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of 
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the 
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks for any and all advice.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.n
et 
>
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 00:22:54 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:22:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>

You might be able to argue that by placing the sign, the Village is  
providing a reasonable accommodation (a weak argument though) and that you have  
the right to refuse a reasonable accommodation under the ADA.  You might  
also be able to argue that by erecting such a sign, the Village is violating  
your right to confidentiality under the ADA (also a weak argument).
 
I suggest you contact Shawn Mayo, Executive Director at BLIND, Inc.  I  
believe that the City of Minneapolis recently put up signs similar to yours 
near  the training center, but Shawn, her staff, and the affilliate 
successfully  advocated to get them removed. Shawn's email address is 
_smayo at blindinc.org_ (mailto:smayo at blindinc.org) .
 
Good luck,
Ronza
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 7:53:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
billreif at ameritech.net writes:

I don't  know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm 
sure  that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the 
area  may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much  objectionable about such a sign.  It 
signifies that you are owed some  special degree of care, and can't look 
out for yourself.  Of more  concern is the message such a sign would send 
criminals of various  sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the 
opportunity to wait for  someone who can't visually identify me.  I could 
thus sneak in behind  them to do whatever I cared to with them or their 
property; and they would  have no way of picking me out of a lineup or 
even providing a description  in the absence of other witnesses.  Please 
demand that the City  remove its inadvertent way of making you a  target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie  Fairall wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I have moved to the state of  Rhode Island to take another position. 
> I'm renting a single family  residence and have lived here for a month.
>
> To my horror, the  town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind 
> person" directly  across the street from my home. I would not have 
> known this if a  friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told 
> me. It is a  bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>
> I will be contacting  City Hall both by phone and in writing to have 
> the sign removed. I  have a few questions.
>
>
> 1. Would this be considered  discrimination under the Americans with 
> Disabilities or some other  act?
> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of  
> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the  
> facts straight.
> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request  that the sign be removed? 
> In my rough draft, I stated seven  days.
>
> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would  strongly 
> encourage them to remove the sign?
>
> Thanks  for any and all advice.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for 
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.net  
>
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw  mailing  list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com


From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 00:48:21 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>

Actually, I live on a quiet residential street. I take paratransit which 
drops me off right in front of my house. Making me a target for a criminal 
is a good argument for removing the sign. Is everyone saying that I have 
no legal basis for having it removed?



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:49:33 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:49:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
Message-ID: <1363C207-0B90-4D69-AC86-BCB7CAC4A6F0@sbcglobal.net>

*nods* I would seriously question whether one *should*, indeed, be "nice," to the people, since rewarding such unhelpful behavior, no matter in whose name or for what noble cause it is perpetrated, will only lead to its repetition, with equally disastrous, disrespectful, invasive and controlling results.  Nor, this list being of a legal content and nature, should it be suggested or entertained at any level or to any degree that it would be suitable to take a can of spray paint in your favorite Daglo color, and artistically and creatively alter the sign to reflect a more community-minded spirit.  It must not at all be implied much less boldly stated, that it might be only fitting to post a sign of one's own, in like mind decrying to the world some such statement about your neighbors as might describe their noisy bathroom habits, or, perhaps, odd noises made during the act of love...  Oh I could just go on forever.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:51:54 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:51:54 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>
References: <88ac.23400acf.3b9eaade@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D3374F57-45B8-4BAF-B921-804612DAA0B9@sbcglobal.net>

Is an accommodation "reasonable," when it has not been agreed to by the person being accommodated?  My understanding of the term "reasonable accommodation," was that it was something agreed to by both the disabled person and the facility or employer or public sector whatever...

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 00:53:45 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:53:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112045300.17579@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <B7D16099-8BE5-427F-8FB1-F91976E13465@sbcglobal.net>

You don't  have to be there for the  rime to happen.  The sign marks you as a target; then the person gets to know your habits and targets yo based on the nature of the intended crime and your daily routine.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From langlois2 at verizon.net  Mon Sep 12 01:45:00 2011
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:45:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net> <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
Message-ID: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>

The sign may have been installed at the request of another blind resident or 
his/her family.
In my old neighbourhood, there was a "blind child" sign which was near a 
crossing I had to frequently make. How embarrassing.
Brian L.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Harpur" <paulharpur at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> The council might think they are being helpful so I would start being nice
> about it and just ask them to remove it.
> Considering this is a public post I could not suggest vandalising 
> government
> property by having some friends around for dinner one night, and then 
> around
> 2 AM going across the street with friends with the appropriate equipment 
> and
> cutting the sign down.  I would further not suggest having a friend with a
> car dispose of the sign in an industrial bin a few miles from your home.
> Such direct action would of course be unlawful and should not be
> recommended.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bill Reif
> Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 9:53 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
>
> I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  I'm
> sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers in the
> area may be more cautious about hitting you.
>
> There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It
> signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and can't look
> out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign would send
> criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish the
> opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  I could
> thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or their
> property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a lineup or
> even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  Please
> demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a target.
>
> cordially,
> Bill
>
>
> On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another position.
>> I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a month.
>>
>> To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says "blind
>> person" directly across the street from my home. I would not have
>> known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't told
>> me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.
>>
>> I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to have
>> the sign removed. I have a few questions.
>>
>>
>> 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans with
>> Disabilities or some other act?
>> 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of
>> discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get the
>> facts straight.
>> 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be removed?
>> In my rough draft, I stated seven days.
>>
>> 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly
>> encourage them to remove the sign?
>>
>> Thanks for any and all advice.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/billreif%40ameritech.n
> et
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net 




From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 01:54:12 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net> <000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
	<90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109112152060.18290@server1.shellworld.net>

No, I'm the only blind person on the street. If there were another blind 
person, it should be erected in front of their house instead of mine.




From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 01:56:14 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:56:14 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109111741500.10162@server1.shellworld.net>
	<4E6D49DF.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<000c01cc70e2$088bc800$19a35800$@com>
	<90B6E0B5303E45D9B9DD9F76856469C9@barney03>
Message-ID: <A93EF1D5-28D2-433F-9E1B-125AEC5005E4@sbcglobal.net>

I would point out that no other class of citizen has a sign proclaiming their residency.  Oh, except for one--sexual offenders.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 02:11:54 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:11:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>

Not true.  There are often signs that notify residents that a deaf or  
"handicapped" individual is in the neighborhood.  Some villages erect them  
believing they are akin to the "children at play" signs that are often posted  
near schools and parks.  I suggest you contact the Village, as you  said, and 
ask why it's there first.  Then if you learn that it was put up  for you 
and not someone else (just because a blind person doesn't live on  your block 
doesn't mean one doesn't visit sometimes that you aren't aware of -  you 
said you moved there recently?), ask them to remove it.  
 
Also, consider contacting Shawn - she can help you craft any language you  
might need for a letter or demand that it be removed.    
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 9:57:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net writes:

I would  point out that no other class of citizen has a sign proclaiming 
their  residency.  Oh, except for one--sexual offenders.

Mark  BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:   Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
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From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 12 02:44:15 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:44:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>

Other than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until this one where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation of the person for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of severely disabled children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I was not aware that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was appropriate.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Mon Sep 12 02:52:47 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:52:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <45981.524d5b11.3b9ecdff@aol.com>

I know of several who've done so in different places throughout the  
country.  Some State Transportation Departments even subsidize the cost of  such 
signs in the interest of promoting pedestrian and neighborhood  safety.  The 
City has the ability and arguably the right to erect signs it  viewes are in 
the public good.  We may disagree that this sort of sign is  for the good 
of anyone, but others might have differing opinions.  Whether  such a sign is 
legal is exactly at the heart of this discussion.
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2011 10:45:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net writes:

Other  than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until 
this one  where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation of 
the person  for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of severely 
disabled  children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I was not 
aware  that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was  appropriate.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:   BurningHawk1969
Home:   Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
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blindlaw:
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From langlois2 at verizon.net  Mon Sep 12 02:55:45 2011
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:55:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>

Perhaps it is not legal. Maybe a local politician directed an employee at 
the Highway Dept. to make and install the sign.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Other than the anecdote I related earlier, I know of no instance until 
> this one where such a sign was put up without the consent and cooperation 
> of the person for whom the sign was intended, except in the case of 
> severely disabled children or if a legal guardian had the sign put up.  I 
> was not aware that it was legal for a town to decide that such a sign was 
> appropriate.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net 




From fairall at shellworld.net  Mon Sep 12 11:01:26 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 07:01:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>

Folks,

This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
letter. Thank you for answers so far.



From blinddog3 at charter.net  Mon Sep 12 11:07:05 2011
From: blinddog3 at charter.net (Steven Johnson)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 06:07:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <001701cc713c$1b74fd10$525ef730$@net>

Leslie, there may be a city ordinance in place as I believe this was eluded
to previously.  If that is the case, some good education and advocacy is
essential.  Good luck with this and let us know the results.  

BTW, my neighbor has a 2-hour parking limit sign in the front of their home
which is allowed under city ordinance due to their mobility impairment.
However, they made the request which makes your situation all the more
eyebrow raising.

Again, the best to you,

Steve Johnson


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leslie Fairall
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 6:01 AM
To: Brian Langlois; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

Folks,

This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
letter. Thank you for answers so far.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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t



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Sep 12 11:44:41 2011
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 05:44:41 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
Message-ID: <4e6df0c1.552fe70a.3f4b.1681@mx.google.com>

That's ridiculous!  A sign?  What?  That thing needs to go.  Bill 
had a good point.  When I moved into my place in Denver, nobody 
hung up a sign, and so people leave me in peace.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Reif <billreif at ameritech.net
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs

I don't know in what manner the sign can be said to discriminate.  
I'm
sure that whoever put it up has the mistaken belief that drivers 
in the
area may be more cautious about hitting you.

There is nevertheless much objectionable about such a sign.  It
signifies that you are owed some special degree of care, and 
can't look
out for yourself.  Of more concern is the message such a sign 
would send
criminals of various sorts.  Were I a criminal, I would relish 
the
opportunity to wait for someone who can't visually identify me.  
I could
thus sneak in behind them to do whatever I cared to with them or 
their
property; and they would have no way of picking me out of a 
lineup or
even providing a description in the absence of other witnesses.  
Please
demand that the City remove its inadvertent way of making you a 
target.

cordially,
Bill


On 9/11/2011 5:02 PM, Leslie Fairall wrote:
 Hello:

 I have moved to the state of Rhode Island to take another 
position.
 I'm renting a single family residence and have lived here for a 
month.

 To my horror, the town of Cranston has erected a sign that says 
"blind
 person" directly across the street from my home. I would not 
have
 known this if a friend of mine who picks me up for church hadn't 
told
 me. It is a bright yellow sign with black lettering.

 I will be contacting City Hall both by phone and in writing to 
have
 the sign removed. I have a few questions.


 1. Would this be considered discrimination under the Americans 
with
 Disabilities or some other act?
 2. Is singling out a person because of disability a form of
 discrimination? My knee-jerk reaction is yes, but I want to get 
the
 facts straight.
 3. What is a reasonable timeframe to request that the sign be 
removed?
 In my rough draft, I stated seven days.

 4. Are their any other points I should make that would strongly
 encourage them to remove the sign?

 Thanks for any and all advice.


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:
 
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oose%40gmail.com


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Mon Sep 12 12:00:48 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:00:48 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>

Good Morning Leslie:
The research  necessary to determine if your situation constitutes 
discriminatory condutc by the city is something that I am not now in a 
position to do.
However, it is governmental activity - and the true question will center 
around the level of scrutiny that is required - Low, intermediate or strict.
IE:"Can a governmental entity do someting to, or on behalf of, someone 
without their knowledge or consent when it is more likely than not suad 
activity will place the recipient at rish?"
Would American Moslems appreciate having a sign put up at their home stating 
"Arams live here"? What about AFrican Americans, Hispanic Americans, 
Catholics, Protestants etc, etc - the list goes on.
Yes, in my view, they have stepped over a line in doing this.
Good research aimed at Title II of the ADA and the Rehab Act as well as 
other discriminatory legislation. I would also check witht he Human Rights 
Commission in your State to see about getting a legal opinion, and follow 
that up[ with a check on the Statutue of limitations for such civil 
litigation.
I do apologize  for not being able to give you more specific advice, I no 
longer have access to WestLaw or Lexis. You need legal advice from someone 
who knows the specifics of your situation, and is experienced with your 
State's laws and the local regulations.
Sorry I can't help more from here. Best of luck, and if you want to get some 
more specifics on how to approach this situation, give me a an email off 
line and I'll be happy to talk things over. I used to get situations ike 
this on my desk all the time when I worked with the the disability law 
outfitsof two states.
rumpole at roadrunner.com

Ross

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leslie Fairall" <fairall at shellworld.net>
To: "Brian Langlois" <langlois2 at verizon.net>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing 
List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Folks,
>
> This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
> THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
> a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
> a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
> the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
> letter. Thank you for answers so far.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11
> 



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Mon Sep 12 12:18:14 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:18:14 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminatory sign
Message-ID: <59CAA12644F24FE38063CC3643D33F98@mycomputer>

Good Morning Leslie:
The research  necessary to determine if your situation constitutes discriminatory conduct by the city is something that I am not now in a 
position to do.
However, it is nonetheless governmental activity - and the true question, in a federal sense, will center 
around the level of scrutiny that is required (in the S. Ct. reporter) - Low, intermediate or strict.
IE:"Can a governmental entity do something to, or on behalf of, someone, without their knowledge or consent when it is more likely than not such 
activity will place the recipient at risk?"
Would American Moslems appreciate having a sign put up at their home stating 
"Arabs live here"? What about African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Catholics, Protestants etc, etc - the list can definately go on.
Yes, in my view, albeit unresearched,  they have stepped over a line in putting up that sign.
Good research aimed at Title II of the ADA and the Rehab Act as well as 
other discriminatory legislation is certainly called for. I would also check with the Human Rights 
Commission in your State to see about getting a legal opinion, and make sure that includes a check on the Statute of limitations for such civil litigation in your jurisdiction.
I do apologize  for not being able to give you more specific advice, I no 
longer have access to WestLaw or Lexis. You need legal advice from someone 
who knows the specifics of your situation, and is experienced with your 
State's laws and the local regulations.
Sorry I can't help more from here. Best of luck, and if you want to get some more specifics on how to approach this situation, give me a an email off line and I'll be happy to  discuss it. I used to get situations like 
this on my desk all the time when I worked with the disability law 
outfitsof two states over the past several years.
rumpole at roadrunner.com

Ross

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leslie Fairall" <fairall at shellworld.net>
To: "Brian Langlois" <langlois2 at verizon.net>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing 
List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs


> Folks,
>
> This is a sign erected by the town. THERE IS NOT ANOTHER BLIND PERSON IN 
> THE AREA. It is directly across the street from my home. It was not there 
> a week ago. I will be contacting City Hall today and have already drafted 
> a letter. The purpose of writing my original post was to find out whether 
> the sign is legal and get advice on points I need to make when writing the 
> letter. Thank you for answers so far.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11
> 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3891 - Release Date: 09/11/11

From fairall at shellworld.net  Tue Sep 13 00:42:53 2011
From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
	<342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>

Hello everyone:

An update with the sign issue.

I contacted City Hall this morning and eventually spoke to the person who 
handles signs. He informed me that a nosy neighbor had emailed him to 
erect the sign! He was not aware that I did not give her permission to do 
so. The sign should be removed within a week. The lady from church comes 
on Wednesday night, so she will keep me informed.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. Hopefully this incident is over.



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Tue Sep 13 20:01:20 2011
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:01:20 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com><A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net><F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03><Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net><342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>

Leslie, way to go!!  Hurrah!!  Keep up the good fight!!

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Tue Sep 13 22:31:21 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:31:21 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. attorney posting, Northern District of Illinois
Message-ID: <5CCC04917EB14E36AA9C87CD1E11A289@mycomputer>

  a.. Assistant United States Attorney (Asset Forfeiture) United States Attorney's Office Northern District of Illinois Vacancy Announcement Number: AUSA-NDIL-11-AF. Position is open until filled. 


From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 14 01:17:33 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:17:33 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Discriminating Signs
In-Reply-To: <D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>
References: <2ca24.6582ea8.3b9ec46a@aol.com>
	<A78E1ADC-EBE1-43D3-B38D-EEB954D1667F@sbcglobal.net>
	<F3254595187D4757A104728D40C98FFE@barney03>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109120656470.34731@server1.shellworld.net>
	<342511F02E504C99983D7E3326B75108@mycomputer>
	<Pine.BSF.4.64.1109121900050.59717@server1.shellworld.net>
	<D3914D26A9D34BD6A158A2DBFEF4644E@victory2>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbaqyfOYQS-jkyhaaNQhDWWn071qrW2-jRH=bGCN5MioCsA@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto that.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD,
Inc. <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com> wrote:
> Leslie, way to go!!  Hurrah!!  Keep up the good fight!!
>
> Sincerely,
> Olusegun
> Denver, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>


From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Wed Sep 14 15:21:50 2011
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:21:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] 2 U.S. Attorney postings, Eastern Tennessee no pay
Message-ID: <C30D9833AD1942E5976870CFB926480A@mycomputer>

        a.. Special Assistant United States Attorney (Serves Without Compensation) United States Attorney's Office Eastern District of Tennessee Vacancy Announcement Number 11-EDTN-10 Applications must be received by Friday, September 30, 2011. 
     
        a.. Special Assistant United States Attorney (Serves Without Compensation) United States Attorney's office Eastern District of Tennessee Vacancy Announcement Number 11-EDTN-09 Applications must be received by Friday, September 30, 2011. 
     



From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us  Thu Sep 15 17:49:06 2011
From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC))
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:49:06 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Looking for a contact
Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233865912A2EB@tiger>

Let me say at the outset, the this is about law only tangentially. I have a student who wants to go into court reporting. I am looking for a blind court reporter. Now I know that Sandy Halverson was in it years ago, and that Jim Bowen was too. I'm looking for someone who is doing it now.

Please feel free to contact me off list
David.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us<mailto:David.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us>
Or 608-758-6152. Thanks for your help.


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Sep 16 21:07:31 2011
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:07:31 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk
	Airport
Message-ID: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how 
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Fri Sep 16 21:28:22 2011
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
	NorfolkAirport
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <001301cc74b7$8ff07740$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    There's a solution to both passing through scanners with guide dogs and 
very invasive pat-downs. It's called private air charter.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:07 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in 
NorfolkAirport


Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time,
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Flagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com 



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Sep 16 21:30:40 2011
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:30:40 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
 Norfolk Airport
In-Reply-To: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F1FA@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

This sounds frighteningly similar to an experience I had in May, when we
connected through Sky Harbor (Phoenix, AZ).  The only exception is that
I have some limited (very limited) vision in my left eye and thus use a
white cane, rather than a guide dog.  It was a horrible experience,
simply horrendous.  I am hoping that it is not repeated at our next
trip, when we will be connecting through Denver.  

I have the unfortunate feeling that many TSA agents are either NOT
trained in how to communicate with the public, particularly those with
vision or mobility loss, or that they simply do not care.  Litigation
may be the only way to get them to care. 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 2:08 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
Norfolk Airport

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I
usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that
my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might
have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I
have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my
email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal
Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped
to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA
manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working
with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper
steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I
received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that
time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to
the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on
how 
> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and
passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before
entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my
guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in
my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to
grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a
result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility

> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening
the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded
to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab
the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe
location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the
scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then
finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance
traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second
time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through
the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm
and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was
very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that
she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself
and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from

> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained
to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of
us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with
the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have
any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.
I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants
strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my
pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I
was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down
my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog,
a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave
the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been
put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm
the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This
long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt
very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would
not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa,
I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my
phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception,
and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in
error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I
must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not,
and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my
guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was
I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where
I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this
again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a
place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without
your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the
TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have
taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary
for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done
to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the
proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was
involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be
reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not
there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear
that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of
lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the
consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future,
that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a
seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.
To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with
Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was

> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise
national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to
inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who
are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have
to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for
your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima
.gov




From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep 16 22:19:56 2011
From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:19:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA
	inNorfolkAirport
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
	<001301cc74b7$8ff07740$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <1D7AFB6658094520854848377E997B1F@HP8730notebook>

it's also much more expensive than a deal from southwest or expedia!

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA 
inNorfolkAirport


> Hello everyone,
>
>    There's a solution to both passing through scanners with guide dogs and
> very invasive pat-downs. It's called private air charter.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:07 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
> NorfolkAirport
>
>
> Does this man have a case? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
> To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
> Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually 
>> do
>> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
>> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
>> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
>> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have
>> the
>> same unfortunate encounter.
>> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
>> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
>> been  traveling
>> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
>> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal 
>> Director
>> in
>> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
>> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible
>> regarding
>> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager
>> of
>> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with 
>> me
>> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps
>> to
>> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I 
>> received
>> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
>> that
>> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
>> person
>> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
>> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no
>> further
>> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on 
>> how
>> I
>> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
>> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the
>> letter
>> below.  It reads as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>>
>>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
>> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my
>> guidedog,
>> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
>> checkpoint
>> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
>> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
>> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
>> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
>> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
>> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
>> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
>> without
>> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
>> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result
>> of
>> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility
>> tool
>> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and
>> therefore,have
>> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
>> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
>> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the
>> hand
>> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, 
>> as
>> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the 
>> scanner,
>> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
>> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time,
>> not
>> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
>> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
>> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
>> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
>> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
>> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
>> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
>> what
>> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
>> me
>> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
>> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the
>> dog
>> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
>> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I
>> was
>> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly. 
>> I
>> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
>> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
>> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to
>> take
>> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me
>> down,
>> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this
>> procedure
>> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
>> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
>> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost
>> originally
>> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
>> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
>> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been 
>> put
>> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm 
>> the
>> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
>> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
>> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
>> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
>> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my 
>> phone
>> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
>> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error. 
>> I
>> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I 
>> must
>> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
>> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
>> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
>> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
>> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
>> determine
>> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog. 
>> I
>> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
>> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
>> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me
>> during
>> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
>> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
>> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
>> was
>> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this 
>> again
>> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
>> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
>> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the 
>> TSA
>> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
>> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary 
>> for
>> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
>> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
>> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
>> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
>> in
>> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
>> The
>> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
>> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
>> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent
>> Sunday
>> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
>> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
>> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
>> manager.
>> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
>> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences
>> of
>> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
>> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
>> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a 
>> seminar
>> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
>> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
>> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
>> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was
>> told
>> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
>> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
>> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
>> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to 
>> inform
>> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are
>> not
>> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
>> time.
>>
>>    Sincerely,
>>
>>    Matt Weihmuller
>>
>>    MMP 2010
>>
>>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Flagdu mailing list
>> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Flagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net 



From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com  Fri Sep 16 23:30:48 2011
From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:30:48 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Problems with TSA in
	NorfolkAirport
In-Reply-To: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <289999B16D804C08BB80B170F790BFC2@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <8ABE9DE46480488BB4E48B14A832D717@RThomas>

Unfortunately, those of us who travel frequently could share any number of
horror stories.  It might be useful for the NFB to compile some of these
stories so that others are prepared for anything and everything. 

In recent trips from the airport in Orange County, I have learned that the
airport has people that assist the disabled to the gate. As a matter of my
own independence, I don't need these people. However, one purpose they do
serve is getting you through security quickly. These people are recognized
by the security screeners and that seems to speed up the process.

Another strange, and silly thing I have noticed is that I am treated
differently when I wear a suit and carry a briefcase, and when I dress
casually. This is obviously is a sign of ignorance,  but somehow many people
must think that I wear a suit and carry a briefcase, I must be able to
function as a human being.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

www.emplmntattorney.com

Follow me on Twitter:  EmplmntAttorney

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 2:08 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
NorfolkAirport

Does this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To: <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking your time.  I usually do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA Federal Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA manager 
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously working with me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen again.  However, the last contact I received
> with Mr. Carson was the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
> he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the 
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore, going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on how

> I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog, having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
> agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
> security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next. I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to assist guiding me to a safe location, as
> not to run into anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the scanner,
> the TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
> concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner, and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
> directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA  supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
> later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  I
> showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
> during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
> underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that my belt had been put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it did not alert the alarm the
> first time I traveled  through the scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time, I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
> contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must have been in error.  I
> explained the sequence of events as stated above, and was told that I must
> have had some type of incidental contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
> determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with my guidedog.  I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.  Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this again
> might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.  The agents at the TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what exact procedure was necessary for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
> The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
> advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that the consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to me again.  I recently attended a seminar
> given by a TSA representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
> date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
> explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
> again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking your time, however, I wanted to inform
> you of the situation in the hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
> experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for your
> time.
>
>    Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>    MMP 2010
>
>    Phone: 813-541-4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
ail.com 


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om



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Sat Sep 17 13:04:21 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:04:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
	Norfolk Airport
Message-ID: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>

This is very unfortunate.  I previously worked at the Department of  
Homeland Security Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, and we provided  
such training to airport personnel as well as other DHS Components.  
 
Matt has the option of initiating a civil rights complaint at the  
headquarters level.  If Matt wishes to do this, he can send an email to 
_crcl at dhs.gov_ (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov) .  If he wants contact  information for people who 
can take his complaint, I can provide that to him  off-list.
 
I'll ask the list members to remember that this list is not intended to  
offer legal advice and assess whether a case has merit - we cannot give legal  
advice, as it may place list members and the National Association of Blind  
Lawyers in a position where we are subject to allegations of legal 
malpractice,  the unauthorized practice of law, and on and on.  However, this list 
is  intended to discuss the manner in which laws and practices affect the 
blind,  techniques for blind users to use while practicing law, and resources 
available  to blind attorneys and legal practitioners.  
 
 
Regards,
Ronza
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/16/2011 5:08:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com writes:

Does  this man have a case? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt  Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
To:  <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55  PM
Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk  Airport


> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking  your time.  I usually 
do
> not wish to post on this list, unless it  is absolutely
> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list  today in the hopes that my
> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA  security checkpoint in the
> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and  educate others that might have 
> the
> same unfortunate  encounter.
> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday  September 2nd,
> however, for some reason it did not post and was  returned to me.  I have
> been  traveling
> for  the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my  
email
> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA  Federal 
Director
> in
> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as  I have been traveling and I hoped to
> gather some comments and  critiques from as many people as possible 
> regarding
> the  matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA 
manager  
> of
> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously  working with 
me
> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take  the propper steps 
> to
> ensure that it did not happen  again.  However, the last contact I 
received
> with Mr. Carson was  the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time 
> that
>  he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the  
> person
> did not fit my description.  He was therefore,  going to "go back to the
> drawing board" to find the video of  myself.  I have currently had no 
> further
> contact with  Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on 
how 
>  I
> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I  would
> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your  time.  Here is the 
> letter
> below.  It reads as  follows:
>
>
>
> Dear Mr.  Horowitz,
>
>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am  writing you in regards to an
> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating  experience I had with my 
> guidedog,
> Daisy, the morning of  Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A 
> checkpoint
> in the  Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and  
passport,
> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a  quick and
> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray  machine.  Before entering
> the scanner, I informed the agent that  I was traveling with my guidedog,
> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog,  having her sit and stay while I was
> cleared.  I can only assume  that I must have not been clear enough in my
> communication as to my  situation.  I am totally blind, and as such, 
> without
> my  mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>  agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to  
grab
> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about  as  a result 
> of
> my travel over the years, where I have  been asked to leave my mobility 
> tool
> I.E. cane or dog behind  while passing through the scanner and 
> therefore,have
> bumped  into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>  security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy  explanation,
> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next.  I proceeded to
> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and  expecting to grab the 
> hand
> of the agent on the other side to  assist guiding me to a safe location, 
as
> not to run into  anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the 
scanner,
> the  TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>  concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance  traveling
> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed  through a second time, 
> not
> setting anything off, and was then  cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
> travel through the  scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
> scanner,  and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>  directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was  very
> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she  licked.  We then
> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good  dog I have and that she
> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began  to express that both myself and
> Daisy were clear, when a TSA   supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from 
> what
> I perceived to  be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to 
> me
>  later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of  
us
> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact  with the 
> dog
> while she passed through the scanner.  I  stated that I did not have any
> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I  did and promptly walked away.  I 
> was
> then grabbed by a  man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.  
I
>  showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>  during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my  pants
> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure  which I was
> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then  commanded me to 
> take
> off my belt and promptly snatched it  away from me.  He then patted me 
> down,
> taking his hands  and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>  underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while  this 
> procedure
> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have  control of my guide dog, a
> direct violation of TSA disability  regulations.  After the pat-down
> procedure, the first female  agent, who was very polite and almost 
> originally
> cleared my  dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
> area. I  stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was  then
> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that  my belt had been 
put
> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it  did not alert the alarm 
the
> first time I traveled  through the  scanner.  I would have strongly
> protested, however, by this time,  I needed to go to the gate.  This long
> procedure had caused me  a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
> strongly that  at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
> make it in  time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>  contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my  
phone
> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's  inception, and
> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must  have been in error.  
I
> explained the sequence of events as stated  above, and was told that I 
must
> have had some type of incidental  contact with the dog after it passed
> through the scanner, before it  was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
> was told that I must  have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
> reason to come and  given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
> currently  awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to 
>  determine
> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with  my guidedog.  
I
> would like to state that even if this is somehow  true, at no time was I
> informed by any TSA agent of my error.   Furthermore, at no time was I
> informed of the consequences of my error  or what would be done to me 
> during
> the pat-down procedure. I  realize that this might normally seem
> unnecessary, however, as I  previously stated, I am totally blind.
> Therefore, it was somewhat  unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I 
> was
> standing or  exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this 
again
>  might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a  place
> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person  without your
> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.   The agents at the 
TSA
> checkpoint should have been trained on this  matter and should have taken
> necessary action to state to myself what  exact procedure was necessary 
for
> both Daisy and I to passs correctly  through the security checkpoint.
> Furthermore, if such action is not  taken, such training should be done to
> properly notify myself and any  other blind individuals of what the proper
> procedure is should I not  correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved 
> in
> the  pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined. 
>  The
> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran  into the
> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that  it is not there
> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the  responsibility of Agent 
> Sunday
> or her superiors to train  those on what should be done should another
> incident of this kind  should occur in the future. It is very clear that
> Agent Sunday has not  had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA 
> manager.
> This  greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>  advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of  lesser
> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that  the 
consequences 
> of
> such an incident could be severe.  I  still have not been given any
> reassurance that should I follow the  proper procedure in the future, that
> the same events will not occur to  me again.  I recently attended a 
seminar
> given by a TSA  representative at the National Federation of the Blind
> National  Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
> guidelines  given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>  date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>  explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>  again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with  Mr.
> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I  was 
> told
> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines  would compromise national
> security.  It is again very clear to me  that agents are not adequately
> trained for these situations, and such  a reeducation program is very
> necessary.  I appolygize for taking  your time, however, I wanted to 
inform
> you of the situation in the  hopes  that either myself or others who are 
> not
> as  willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>  experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for  
your
> time.
>
>     Sincerely,
>
>    Matt Weihmuller
>
>   MMP 2010
>
>    Phone:  813-541-4012
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Flagdu mailing  list
> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for 
> Flagdu:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com  


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To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
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From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 17 18:30:27 2011
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:30:27 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in
 Norfolk Airport
In-Reply-To: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>
References: <31a35.6578026d.3ba5f4d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtsbaqNGnaHWBdRdanDcyHDksP2UYurKDLxWSPwy-yCrnyTCw@mail.gmail.com>

I sincerely hope that TSA agent is fired.  People are such jerks
sometimes.  I hope you get justice.

On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 6:04 AM,  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> This is very unfortunate.  I previously worked at the Department of
> Homeland Security Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, and we provided
> such training to airport personnel as well as other DHS Components.
>
> Matt has the option of initiating a civil rights complaint at the
> headquarters level.  If Matt wishes to do this, he can send an email to
> _crcl at dhs.gov_ (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov) .  If he wants contact  information for people who
> can take his complaint, I can provide that to him  off-list.
>
> I'll ask the list members to remember that this list is not intended to
> offer legal advice and assess whether a case has merit - we cannot give legal
> advice, as it may place list members and the National Association of Blind
> Lawyers in a position where we are subject to allegations of legal
> malpractice,  the unauthorized practice of law, and on and on.  However, this list
> is  intended to discuss the manner in which laws and practices affect the
> blind,  techniques for blind users to use while practicing law, and resources
> available  to blind attorneys and legal practitioners.
>
>
> Regards,
> Ronza
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/16/2011 5:08:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com writes:
>
> Does  this man have a case? RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt  Weihmuller" <saxmatt7 at gmail.com>
> To:  <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:55  PM
> Subject: [Flagdu] Concerns and Promblems with TSA in Norfolk  Airport
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone.  I appolygize for taking  your time.  I usually
> do
>> not wish to post on this list, unless it  is absolutely
>> necessary.  However, I am posting on this list  today in the hopes that my
>> unfortunate event I experienced at the TSA  security checkpoint in the
>> Norfolk Airport will help to benefit and  educate others that might have
>> the
>> same unfortunate  encounter.
>> This post was suppose to go out two weeks ago on Friday  September 2nd,
>> however, for some reason it did not post and was  returned to me.  I have
>> been  traveling
>> for  the  last two weeks and have not been able to have access to my
> email
>> until today.  Below is a letter I have drafted to the TSA  Federal
> Director
>> in
>> Norfolk.  I have not yet sent it, as  I have been traveling and I hoped to
>> gather some comments and  critiques from as many people as possible
>> regarding
>> the  matter.  I also was hoping to resolve the matter with the TSA
> manager
>> of
>> the Norfolk Airport, Mr. Carson, as he was very graciously  working with
> me
>> to review the video to confirm my accusations and take  the propper steps
>> to
>> ensure that it did not happen  again.  However, the last contact I
> received
>> with Mr. Carson was  the day I left on vacation.  He stated at that time
>> that
>>  he could only find one video of a person  with a service dog and the
>> person
>> did not fit my description.  He was therefore,  going to "go back to the
>> drawing board" to find the video of  myself.  I have currently had no
>> further
>> contact with  Mr,. Carson since then.  If anyone has any suggestions on
> how
>>  I
>> can ensure that my concerns are heard in a very  curtius way, I  would
>> greatly appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your  time.  Here is the
>> letter
>> below.  It reads as  follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr.  Horowitz,
>>
>>    My name is Matt Weihmuller.  I am  writing you in regards to an
>> unfortunately humiliating and frustrating  experience I had with my
>> guidedog,
>> Daisy, the morning of  Monday, August 29th, at the TSA Concourse A
>> checkpoint
>> in the  Norfolk, Virginia airport.  As usual, I showed my ID and
> passport,
>> and proceeded to remove all necessary belongings to ensure a  quick and
>> efficient passage through the scanner and X-ray  machine.  Before entering
>> the scanner, I informed the agent that  I was traveling with my guidedog,
>> Daisy, and would "heel" the dog,  having her sit and stay while I was
>> cleared.  I can only assume  that I must have not been clear enough in my
>> communication as to my  situation.  I am totally blind, and as such,
>> without
>> my  mobility tools, such as a guidedog, or cane, usually one of the TSA
>>  agents assist me through the scanner by holding out a hand for me to
> grab
>> onto after I pass  through the scanner. This has come about  as  a result
>> of
>> my travel over the years, where I have  been asked to leave my mobility
>> tool
>> I.E. cane or dog behind  while passing through the scanner and
>> therefore,have
>> bumped  into the sides of the machine, enjuring myself and lengthening the
>>  security check process.    I appolygize for this lengthy  explanation,
>> however, it was necessary, as this is what happened next.  I proceeded to
>> attempt to travel through the scanner, hoping and  expecting to grab the
>> hand
>> of the agent on the other side to  assist guiding me to a safe location,
> as
>> not to run into  anything.  As I ran squarely into the side of the
> scanner,
>> the  TSA agent stated, "Oh, sorry, you are blind, huh?". They then finally
>>  concluded that I was in fact, blind and needed some assistance  traveling
>> through the center of the scanner.  I then passed  through a second time,
>> not
>> setting anything off, and was then  cleared.  I then commanded Daisy to
>> travel through the  scanner.  She then proceeded, by herself, through the
>> scanner,  and I grabbed her leash directly after she set off the alarm and
>>  directed her toward the TSA agent to be patted down. The agent was  very
>> polite and greeted Daisy, commenting on how much she  licked.  We then
>> exchanged some casual remarks about what a good  dog I have and that she
>> appeared to be ok.  The agent then began  to express that both myself and
>> Daisy were clear, when a TSA   supervisor, Agent Margy Sunday came from
>> what
>> I perceived to  be out of nowhere, a nearby podium which was explained to
>> me
>>  later, and very abruptly ordered her subordinant agents to pat both of
> us
>> down.  I asked why and was immediately told that I had contact  with the
>> dog
>> while she passed through the scanner.  I  stated that I did not have any
>> contact and. Agent Sunday stated that I  did and promptly walked away.  I
>> was
>> then grabbed by a  man and told to hold tightly onto my  pants strongly.
> I
>>  showed him that I was wearing a belt, an item which I had on my person
>>  during my cleared passage through the scanner, and stated that my  pants
>> would not fall off during the pat-down process, a procedure  which I was
>> neither properly prepared or notified about.  He then  commanded me to
>> take
>> off my belt and promptly snatched it  away from me.  He then patted me
>> down,
>> taking his hands  and placing them inside my pants, firmly patting down my
>>  underwear  and all over my body.  I  should state that while  this
>> procedure
>> took place, at no time, was I allowed to have  control of my guide dog, a
>> direct violation of TSA disability  regulations.  After the pat-down
>> procedure, the first female  agent, who was very polite and almost
>> originally
>> cleared my  dog and myself, stated that I was finally cleared to leave the
>> area. I  stated that my belt had not been  returned to me.  It was  then
>> finally explained to me, after several  minutes  that  my belt had been
> put
>> back through the X-Ray machine, even though it  did not alert the alarm
> the
>> first time I traveled  through the  scanner.  I would have strongly
>> protested, however, by this time,  I needed to go to the gate.  This long
>> procedure had caused me  a  great deal of stress and time, and I felt very
>> strongly that  at that time I needed to be somewhat rushed, or I would not
>> make it in  time to board the aircraft.  Upon my safe arrival in Tampa, I
>>  contacted the TSA Norfolk manager, Mr. Carson, who upon returning my
> phone
>> call, stated that Ms. Sunday has been with TSA since it's  inception, and
>> that if she came from behind her poste, that I must  have been in error.
> I
>> explained the sequence of events as stated  above, and was told that I
> must
>> have had some type of incidental  contact with the dog after it passed
>> through the scanner, before it  was cleared.  I stated that I did not, and
>> was told that I must  have or else Agent Sunday would not have seen any
>> reason to come and  given the order for the pat-down procedure.  I am
>> currently  awaiting Mr. Carson's review of the Concourse A video to
>>  determine
>> if I did in fact have some sort of incidental contact with  my guidedog.
> I
>> would like to state that even if this is somehow  true, at no time was I
>> informed by any TSA agent of my error.   Furthermore, at no time was I
>> informed of the consequences of my error  or what would be done to me
>> during
>> the pat-down procedure. I  realize that this might normally seem
>> unnecessary, however, as I  previously stated, I am totally blind.
>> Therefore, it was somewhat  unnerving and terrifying, not knowing where I
>> was
>> standing or  exactly what was going to be done to me.  I realize this
> again
>>  might not seem relevant.  Again, I ask you to imagine, being in a  place
>> where you are standing in total darkness, while some person  without your
>> predetermined knolodge, evasively probes your body.   The agents at the
> TSA
>> checkpoint should have been trained on this  matter and should have taken
>> necessary action to state to myself what  exact procedure was necessary
> for
>> both Daisy and I to passs correctly  through the security checkpoint.
>> Furthermore, if such action is not  taken, such training should be done to
>> properly notify myself and any  other blind individuals of what the proper
>> procedure is should I not  correctly pass through, I.E. what was involved
>> in
>> the  pat-down and what articles of clothing would need to be reexamined.
>>  The
>> TSA agents  didn't even realize that I was blind until I ran  into the
>> scanner the first time.  I would like to point out that  it is not there
>> responsibility to have such knolodge, but the  responsibility of Agent
>> Sunday
>> or her superiors to train  those on what should be done should another
>> incident of this kind  should occur in the future. It is very clear that
>> Agent Sunday has not  had such training, nor did Mr. Carson, the TSA
>> manager.
>> This  greatly troubles me.  I am a well educated blind individual and
>>  advoocate.  It frightens me what could happen should a person of  lesser
>> independence experience the same situation.  I fear that  the
> consequences
>> of
>> such an incident could be severe.  I  still have not been given any
>> reassurance that should I follow the  proper procedure in the future, that
>> the same events will not occur to  me again.  I recently attended a
> seminar
>> given by a TSA  representative at the National Federation of the Blind
>> National  Convention in Orlando this past July. I attempted to follow
>> guidelines  given to me at the seminar and this incident still occurs.  To
>>  date, no TSA agent, including Agent Sunday nor Mr. Carson has properly
>>  explained me what I need to do to prevent this incident from happening
>>  again.  Upon requesting such guidelines during my conversations with  Mr.
>> Carson regarding the contact of service animals during scanning, I  was
>> told
>> that it is "SOP" and to explain such guidelines  would compromise national
>> security.  It is again very clear to me  that agents are not adequately
>> trained for these situations, and such  a reeducation program is very
>> necessary.  I appolygize for taking  your time, however, I wanted to
> inform
>> you of the situation in the  hopes  that either myself or others who are
>> not
>> as  willing to come forward and advocate for themselves will not have to
>>  experience what I had to go through in the future.  Thanks again for
> your
>> time.
>>
>>     Sincerely,
>>
>>    Matt Weihmuller
>>
>>   MMP 2010
>>
>>    Phone:  813-541-4012
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Flagdu mailing  list
>> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/flagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>> Flagdu:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/flagdu_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw  mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Mon Sep 19 15:41:46 2011
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:41:46 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [DRBA] 2012 Brown, Goldstein & Levy,
	LLL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <C5072968D7A54222A8566196A995FF9C@labarre>

FYI
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Greg Care 
To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:18 AM
Subject: [DRBA] 2012 Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLL Disability Rights Fellowship


Hello everyone:

 

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first Disability Rights Fellow.  We are now accepting applications for our fourth annual Disability Rights Fellowship to begin in September 2012. The Fellowship offers a recent law school graduate or judicial clerk with a disability the opportunity to participate for a year in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland. Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer law firm devoted principally to litigation. The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2012. The application deadline is November 15, 2011.   Please visit our website for additional details about the Fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com. Attached are accessible pdf and Word versions of the application requirements.

 

Please feel free to pass this information along to individuals who you believe would be interested in a great opportunity to both gain experience and put their knowledge and drive to salutary use.

 

Thanks,

Greg

 

 

Gregory P. Care

Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP

120 E. Baltimore Street

Suite 1700

Baltimore, Maryland 21202

Phone:  410-962-1030 ext. 1316

Fax:  410-385-0869

gpc at browngold.com

www.browngold.com

 

Please consider the environment before printing this email

 

Confidentiality Notice

 

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the Addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!

 

REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. 
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From gpc at browngold.com  Mon Sep 19 15:55:59 2011
From: gpc at browngold.com (Greg Care)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:55:59 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Brown, Goldstein & Levy 2012 Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <F0078745BDA1D442B9BA19143FEA66CD59D7173004@BALT-X1-EXCH01.BGL.root>

Hello everyone:

I am a newcomer to the listserv, but I believe I know some of you from my work at Brown, Goldstein & Levy on behalf of the NFB. It is my pleasure to announce that the time has again come for me to begin seeking candidates for the Brown, Goldstein & Levy Disability Rights Fellowship. I would greatly appreciate it if you could pass long the following information to any recent law graduates with a disability who you think would be interested in this opportunity:

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first Disability Rights Fellow.  We are now accepting applications for our fourth annual Disability Rights Fellowship to begin in September 2012. The Fellowship offers a recent law school graduate or judicial clerk with a disability the opportunity to participate for a year in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland. Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer law firm devoted principally to litigation. The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2012. The application deadline is November 15, 2011.   Please visit our website for additional details about the Fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.

I have attached accessible pdf and Word versions of the application requirements. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Many thanks,
Greg Care

Gregory P. Care
Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
120 E. Baltimore Street
Suite 1700
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
Phone:  410-962-1030 ext. 1316
Fax:  410-385-0869
gpc at browngold.com<mailto:gpc at browngold.com>
www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>

Please consider the environment before printing this email

Confidentiality Notice

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the Addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!

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From taiablas at gmail.com  Wed Sep 21 21:08:46 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:08:46 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic
helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get
U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible
with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are
labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to
address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't
want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does
anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai


From rdittman at stmarytx.edu  Wed Sep 21 21:15:34 2011
From: rdittman at stmarytx.edu (Dittman, Robert)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:15:34 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>

Tai,

Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here in Texas.

What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.  Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.

Good luck,
Rob


Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu


From taiablas at gmail.com  Wed Sep 21 21:30:53 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:30:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to you about your
experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but my school
has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are only
somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
> thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here
> in Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working
> fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick
> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and
> then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you
> can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not
> rendered in an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
> Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping
> victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I
> tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can
> someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i
> really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of
> form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
> experience with immigration forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>


From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Wed Sep 21 21:30:44 2011
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:30:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I will also try to check on my system - we do public defense (juvenile), but because I also have a background in immigration issues, I occasionally have to pull forms for families to submit.  I had not thought about it before because JAWS has only recently become necessary - more soon.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dittman, Robert
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:16 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Tai,

Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law here in Texas.

What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.  Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.

Good luck,
Rob


Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas. Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have experience with immigration forms?

Any information is appreciated.

Thanks.

Tai

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov




From rdittman at stmarytx.edu  Wed Sep 21 22:03:18 2011
From: rdittman at stmarytx.edu (Dittman, Robert)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:03:18 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
	<CAFk_LWmadNcgMrGmcnWh7r52F_u9NqyqZQx9C5qYL0QHY-V_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D57F@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>

Your direct email address did not come through, but I would be very happy to talk to you about my experiences.

In Texas, (not all states have this), after the completion of 45 hours of legal study, and after being approved by the state bar, you can be admitted as an associate member of the bar.  This means you are a "student attorney" and may practice under the direct instruction and supervision of another attorney.

Most times this is at your law school's legal clinic.  It rocks and provides valued experience.

Give me a call at 210 389 3388 and I will be happy to help or answer questions about the experience.

Take care, Rob

Robert D. Dittman
Student Attorney
St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil Clinic)
2507 N.W. 36th Street
San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to you about your experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but my school has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are only somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the 
> same thing in the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of 
> Law here in Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12 seems to be 
> working fine on most government forms from the SSA although it is 
> still no pick nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the forms converted into word 
> form and then filling out the forms as well.  As a third and last 
> resort option, you can always go to sighted assistance because some of 
> the forms are just not rendered in an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
> Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
> St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil 
> Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX  78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
> Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any 
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
> contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized 
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail 
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with my school's legal clinic 
> helping victims of domestic violence file immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are extremely inaccessible with JAWS. 
> When I tab through them, many of the fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to the way they are 
> labeled. Can someone please outline what steps I should take to 
> address this problem? i really want to assist these clients and don't 
> want the burden of form-filling to fall to my sighted colleagues. Does 
> anyone else have experience with immigration forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmar
> ytx.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail
> .com
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu


From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Thu Sep 22 00:24:32 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>

Hi Tai,
I have experience with the forms to which you are referring.  The  problem 
has been that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they  release 
a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you contact the  DHS 
Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at _crcl at dhs.gov_ 
(mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they were  working on helping USCIS make their forms 
508 compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my experience 
is that HQ tends to do a better job of  accountability.
 
Thanks,
Ronza
 
 
In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
taiablas at gmail.com writes:

Rob,

Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my school
has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are  only
somewhat accessible.

On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
> Tai,
>
> Are you also  a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
> thing in  the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law 
here
> in  Texas.
>
> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12  seems to be working
> fine on most government forms from the SSA  although it is still no pick
> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
> Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word form 
and
> then filling out the forms as  well.  As a third and last resort option, 
you
> can always go to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just 
not
> rendered in  an accessible form.
>
> Good luck,
>  Rob
>
>
> Robert D. Dittman
> Student Attorney
>  St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil  
Clinic)
> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
> San Antonio, TX   78228-3918
> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
>  Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This  e-mail message, including any
> attachments, is for the sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
> review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are not
> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the  original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]  
On
> Behalf Of Tai Blas
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible  Government PDF Forms
>
> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with  my school's legal clinic helping
> victims of domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with JAWS. 
When I
> tab through them, many of the  fields are unlabeled.
> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to  the way they are labeled. 
Can
> someone please outline what steps I  should take to address this problem? 
i
> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the burden of
> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
> experience with immigration  forms?
>
> Any information is appreciated.
>
>  Thanks.
>
> Tai
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>

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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
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From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 22 00:54:39 2011
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:54:39 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <CAFk_LWkATC8h7gKvH1hDbVFY8ai-baNevK446mTtDY-38=krMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<687DEBB12226C246A2070B791A47BD4E0E19D525@EXCH1.stmarytx.edu>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3F219@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <CAE4FD3F-D206-40FA-B0FE-AE284F3383F6@sbcglobal.net>

My government student loans (Stafford) all require that I fill out PDFS forms, which are inaccessible to me (from either Mac or Windows side, I've tried them both).  The organization itself only sends me print forms which I must have someone write on for me, thus needing to disclose financial information to that person.  I don't have rush a person readily available anyway.

The upshot of this is that \my credit has been very adversely affected by this; is there something I can use to persuade them to change the status quo?

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From taiablas at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 00:56:53 2011
From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:56:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
In-Reply-To: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>
References: <1be2e.4f4b4a4d.3babda40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAFk_LWmAZX6X2kda+yCVwv3mH_wYS717F_AdBOg3jSipEf6GoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the tip, Ronza!  I will report back to the list after I
make contact with someone at CRCL.

On 9/21/11, AZNOR99 at aol.com <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Tai,
> I have experience with the forms to which you are referring.  The  problem
> has been that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they  release
> a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you contact the  DHS
> Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at _crcl at dhs.gov_
> (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they were  working on helping
> USCIS make their forms
> 508 compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my experience
> is that HQ tends to do a better job of  accountability.
>
> Thanks,
> Ronza
>
>
> In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> taiablas at gmail.com writes:
>
> Rob,
>
> Email me privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
> experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my school
> has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they are  only
> somewhat accessible.
>
> On 9/21/11, Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
>> Tai,
>>
>> Are you also  a student attorney, just asking because I am doing the same
>> thing in  the civil clinic here at St. Mary's University School of Law
> here
>> in  Texas.
>>
>> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws version 12  seems to be working
>> fine on most government forms from the SSA  although it is still no pick
>> nick. I will be trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
>> Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word form
> and
>> then filling out the forms as  well.  As a third and last resort option,
> you
>> can always go to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just
> not
>> rendered in  an accessible form.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>  Rob
>>
>>
>> Robert D. Dittman
>> Student Attorney
>>  St. Mary's University, Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil
> Clinic)
>> 2507 N.W. 36th Street
>> San Antonio, TX   78228-3918
>> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210) 431-5700
>>  Email: rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This  e-mail message, including any
>> attachments, is for the sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
>> review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are not
>> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender by reply e-mail
>> and destroy all copies of the  original message.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Tai Blas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible  Government PDF Forms
>>
>> Hi all. I am working as a volunteer with  my school's legal clinic helping
>> victims of domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
>> Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with JAWS.
> When I
>> tab through them, many of the  fields are unlabeled.
>> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due to  the way they are labeled.
> Can
>> someone please outline what steps I  should take to address this problem?
> i
>> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the burden of
>> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues. Does anyone else have
>> experience with immigration  forms?
>>
>> Any information is appreciated.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>> Tai
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw  mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>


From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Thu Sep 22 02:03:50 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:03:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible Government PDF Forms
Message-ID: <3ea1d.3428b6d4.3babf186@aol.com>

Tai,
 
I contacted a former colleague there and am forwarding you his email  
off-list.  It has the info you need for the 508 coordinator at USCIS and  also 
the folks at CRCL's Office of Accessible Systems and Technology.
 
If anyone else needs this information, email me off-list and I'll send it  
on.
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/21/2011 9:20:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
taiablas at gmail.com writes:

Thanks  for the tip, Ronza!  I will report back to the list after I
make  contact with someone at CRCL.

On 9/21/11, AZNOR99 at aol.com  <AZNOR99 at aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Tai,
> I have experience with  the forms to which you are referring.  The  
problem
> has been  that once USCIS finally gets a form to be accessible, they   
release
> a newer version that is no longer so.  I suggest you  contact the  DHS
> Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at  _crcl at dhs.gov_
> (mailto:crcl at dhs.gov)  - if memory serves, they  were  working on helping
> USCIS make their forms
> 508  compliant.  USCIS has a civil  rights office as well, but my  
experience
> is that HQ tends to do a better job of   accountability.
>
> Thanks,
> Ronza
>
>
>  In a message dated 9/21/2011 7:36:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>  taiablas at gmail.com writes:
>
> Rob,
>
> Email me  privately off list. I would like to talk to  you about your
>  experiences. Perhaps we could talk via phone. I am a 1l, but  my  school
> has a volunteer program. I am using forms from USCIS and they  are  only
> somewhat accessible.
>
> On 9/21/11,  Dittman, Robert  <rdittman at stmarytx.edu> wrote:
>>  Tai,
>>
>> Are you also  a student attorney, just  asking because I am doing the 
same
>> thing in  the civil clinic  here at St. Mary's University School of Law
> here
>> in   Texas.
>>
>> What version of jaws are you running? Jaws  version 12  seems to be 
working
>> fine on most government forms  from the SSA  although it is still no pick
>> nick. I will be  trying out a Mac as soon  as I can get my paws on one.
>>  Secondly I have had good luck having the  forms converted into word  
form
> and
>> then filling out the forms as  well.   As a third and last resort option,
> you
>> can always go  to  sighted assistance because some of the forms are just
>  not
>> rendered in  an accessible form.
>>
>>  Good luck,
>>  Rob
>>
>>
>> Robert D.  Dittman
>> Student Attorney
>>  St. Mary's University,  Center for Legal and Social Justice (Civil
> Clinic)
>> 2507  N.W. 36th Street
>> San Antonio, TX    78228-3918
>> Phone: (210) 431-5760  fax: (210)  431-5700
>>  Email:  rdittman at mail.stmarytx.edu
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This  e-mail message, including any
>> attachments, is for the  sole use of the  intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain  confidential or proprietary  information. Any unauthorized
>>  review, use, disclosure or distribution  is prohibited. If you are  not
>> the intended recipient, immediately  contact the sender  by reply e-mail
>> and destroy all copies of the  original  message.
>>
>>
>> -----Original  Message-----
>>  From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Tai  Blas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:09  PM
>>  To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Inaccessible   Government PDF Forms
>>
>> Hi all. I am working as a  volunteer with  my school's legal clinic 
helping
>> victims of  domestic violence file  immigration forms to get U-visas.
>>  Unfortunately, these PDF forms are  extremely inaccessible with  JAWS.
> When I
>> tab through them, many of the  fields  are unlabeled.
>> Sometimes, the checkboxes are confusing due  to  the way they are 
labeled.
> Can
>> someone please  outline what steps I  should take to address this 
problem?
>  i
>> really want to assist these  clients and don't want the  burden of
>> form-filling to fall to my  sighted colleagues.  Does anyone else have
>> experience with immigration   forms?
>>
>> Any information is  appreciated.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Tai
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw  mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info  for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rdittman%40stmarytx.edu
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw  mailing  list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info  for
>>  blindlaw:
>>
>  
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw   mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To   unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com
>  _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing  list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe,  change your list options or get your account info for
>  blindlaw:
>  
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>

_______________________________________________
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To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindlaw:
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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 22 16:02:12 2011
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:02:12 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Vacancy Announcement-Attorney Advisor (General);
 GS-0905-11/12/13  US Coast Guard
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED908B500070@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00

Job Title: Attorney Advisor (General); GS-0905-11/12/13
Department: Department Of Homeland Security
Agency: U.S. Coast Guard
Sub Agency: United States Coast Guard
Job Announcement Number: 11-2082-HQ-TE

SALARY RANGE:

$61,255.00 - $113,496.00 /year

OPEN PERIOD:

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 to Tuesday, October 04, 2011

SERIES & GRADE:

GS-0905-11/13

POSITION INFORMATION:

This is a full-time position. This is an excepted appointment limited to 2 years.

PROMOTION POTENTIAL:

13

DUTY LOCATIONS:

1 vacancy(s) in one of the following locations: Seattle, WA

WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:

Applications will be accepted from all U.S. Citizens. Position is in the Excepted Service.


JOB SUMMARY:
Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career?  If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling.  DHS components work collectively to prevent terrorism, secure borders, enforce and administer immigration laws, safeguard cyberspace and ensure resilience to disasters.  The vitality and magnitude of this mission is achieved by a diverse workforce spanning hundreds of occupations.  Make an impact; join DHS.

Apply for this exciting position to support the CG missions of safeguarding our Nation's maritime interests in the heartland, in the ports, at sea, and around the globe.

For over two centuries the The U.S. Coast Guard<http://www.uscg.mil/civilian/> has protected the maritime economy and the environment, we defend our maritime borders, and we save those in peril. This history has forged our character and purpose as America's Maritime Guardian - Always Ready for all hazards and all threats.

This position is located in the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Coast Guard, Office of Administrative Law Judges, in Seattle, WA.


KEY REQUIREMENTS:

 *   U.S. Citizenship is required.
 *   This position requires travel.
 *   This position requires a Secret clearance.



Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Duties
Additional Duty Location Info:

Seattle, WA

Coast Guard ALJs are responsible for conducting administrative hearings and issuing decisions for several different Federal departments and agencies, to include the Coast Guard, the Department of Homeland Security, the Transportation Security Agency, Customs and Border Protection, and the Bureau of Industry and Security.

The primary purpose for this position is to serve as an attorney/adviser providing assistance to an ALJ by conducting legal research and analysis of laws, regulations, case law, interpretations, and opinions;  preparing cases for hearing; developing case decisions; and responding to inquiries from parties and attorneys regarding procedures and case status.

Being a CG civilian makes you a valuable member of the CG team.  Typical work assignments include:

-Serving as adviser to an ALJ in preparation of cases.  Studies and analyzes case files; conducts a detailed analysis of the factual and legal issues involved; conducts legal research for cases and analyzes and studies the statutes, executive orders, regulations, and rules applicable to the cases heard by Coast Guard ALJs, as well as the Rules of Administrative Procedure as requested by the ALJ and the Federal Rules of Evidence.

-On own determination or as requested by the ALJ, prepare pre-hearing memorandum which sets for the facts and issues presented, procedural history of the case, evidence presented and any conflicts which may need further clarification.  On occasion, the attorney will be required to travel and attend administrative hearings and assist the ALJ with receiving evidence and coordinate witnesses, parties and court reporter to ensure the hearing is conducted fairly, fast and impartial.


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Qualifications and Evaluations
QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED:
In addition to the above:

To qualify for the GS-11 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; or

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) general understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law; 3) ability to research and analyze.

To qualify for the GS-12 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; and

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) provide analyses of laws and prepare cases for hearings; 3) develop case decisions; and, 4) general understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law.

To qualify for the GS-13 level candidates must:

* possess a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an ABA accredited Law School;

* be a member in good standing of the bar of any state or the District of Columbia; and

* must have specialized experience and ability to independently  1) assist ALJ in case preparation and knowledge of legal research and procedure sufficient for independently preparing draft decisions and orders, 2) provide analyses of laws and prepare cases for hearings; 3) develop case decisions; 4) advising judges in preparation for cases; and, 5) Mastery level understanding of applicable regulations, statutes, and case law.

Specialized experience is experience that has equipped you with the particular ability, skill, and knowledge to successfully perform the duties of this position and is typically in or related to this line of work.
This position has a positive education requirement.

All Candidates must possess a J.D. or LL.B degree from an accredited law school; AND, must be a member in good standing of the appropriate licensing authority of any state or the District of Columbia Bar.

If you are including education on your resume, report only attendance and/or degrees from schools accredited by accrediting institutions recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.
All qualification requirements must be met by the closing date of the announcement.

HOW YOU WILL BE EVALUATED:

Qualified candidates will be rated by comparing each candidate's qualifications to the skills and experience pertinent to the position to be filled. Experience, education, training, awards, and performance will be considered.  The following factors are of particular importance to the position to be filled, and applicants should provide specific detailed information in these areas as part of their application. These areas must be addressed in a document separate from the resume and submitted as part of the application package.

1.  Experience with administrative adjudication and the Administrative Procedure Act and Federal Rules of Evidence.

2.  Effective written and verbal communication skills.

3.  Knowledge of or experience with Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Personnel Enforcement statutes and regulations (46 USC 7701-7705, 46 CFR Part 5, and 33 CFR Part 20).

4.  The ability to provide advice to senior officials within the Coast Guard and other stakeholder communities.

NOTE: Qualified candidates may be invited for an interview.  Final selection will be made on the basis of relevant experience, education, training, performance appraisal, job-related awards, interview, and the skills and experience identified above.
To preview questions please click here<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/%20https:/jobs.mgsapps.monster.com/uscg/vacancy/previewVacancyQuestions.hms?orgId=1&jnum=81939>.


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
Benefits and Other Info

BENEFITS:
DHS offers competitive salaries and an attractive benefits package, including:  health, dental, vision, life, and long-term care insurance; retirement plan; Thrift Savings Plan [similar to a 401(k)]; Flexible Spending Account; Employee Assistance Program; personal leave days; and paid federal holidays.  Other benefits may include:  flexible work schedules; telework; tuition reimbursement; transportation subsidies; uniform allowance; health and wellness programs; and fitness centers.  DHS is committed to employee development and offers a variety of employee training and developmental opportunities.  For more information, go to www.dhs.gov/careers and select "benefits."

OTHER INFORMATION:
Your application contains information subject to the Privacy Act (P.L. 93-579-5 USC 552a.) The information is used to determine qualifications for employment and is authorized under Title 5 of the U.S. Code, Sections 3302 and 3361.

Selection is contingent upon proof of U.S. Citizenship.

Applicants should be available for employment within 45 days of the date they were officially offered the position.

Please be aware that applicants will be required to complete questions contained on the Declaration for Federal Employment (OF-306)<http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/of0306.pdf> at the time a tentative job offer is made. If selected, at the time of appointment, selectees will be required to update the OF-306.  Certain responses on the form could pose a problem with suitability for employment determinations e.g., an affirmative answer to a conviction of a felony.

If you are selected for this position, you will be subject to a determination of your suitability for Federal employment.

Recruitment incentives may be authorized.

Males born after 12/31/59 and at least 18 years of age must be registered with the Selective Service System. Visit Selective Service Registration<http://www.usajobs.gov/ei/selectiveservicerequirements.asp>

Moving expenses will not be paid.

If selection is made below the full performance level, the incumbent may be promoted up to the target grade without further competition, if all
legal and regulatory requirements are met and when recommended by the supervisor.  However, promotion to the full performance level is not
guaranteed and is dependent on successful performance at the lower grade level(s).

All Federal employees are required to have Federal salary payments made by direct deposit to a financial institution of their choosing.

All selectees are subject to an appropriate investigation.

For Veterans' preference eligibility, visit Veterans' Employment Resources<http://www.fedshirevets.gov/>

.More than 1 selection may be made from this announcement if additional identical vacancies in the same title, series, grade, and unit occur within 90 days from the date the certificate was issued.

This is an excepted appointment not to exceed 2 years.  However, an extension is possible.

The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

All qualified applicants will be considered regardless of political affiliation, race, color, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, age, disability, or  other non-merit factors.

USCG provides reasonable accommodations to applicants with disabilities.  If you need a reasonable accommodation for any part of the application and hiring process, please contact 202-475-5269.  Decisions on granting
reasonable accommodation will be made on a case-by-case basis. Visit Reasonable Accommodation<http://www.opm.gov/disability/appempl_6-01-A.asp>


Back to top<http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=102594938&JobTitle=Attorney+Advisor+(General)%3b+GS-0905-11%2f12%2f13&where=Seattle%2c+WA&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&x=0&y=0&rad=100&rad_units=miles&re=4&tm=5&pg=2&AVSDM=2011-09-20+18%3a58%3a00#Top>
How To Apply

HOW TO APPLY:
Application packages for this vacancy must be received on-line by 11:59 p.m ET on the closing date of the announcement.

REQUIRED DOCUMENTS:
In order to receive full consideration, you must submit:

1. A resume or any other written format of your choice which clearly identifies the following information:
*Job Information-Announcement number, title and grade.
*Personal Information- Full name, mailing address (with zip code), email address if available, day and evening phone numbers (with area code), country of citizenship, veterans' preference, highest Federal civilian series and grade held, if applicable.
*Education- College or University name, city and state, major(s)and type and year of any degrees received.
*Work Experience- job title, duties and accomplishments, current and former (within the last 10 years) employers' names and addresses, current and former supervisors' names and phone numbers where available, starting and ending dates (month and year), hours per week, salary, and indicate whether your current supervisor may be contacted.
*Other Qualifications- job-related training courses (title and year), skills, certificates and licenses, honors, awards, and special accomplishments.

2. A copy of your J.D. or LL.B. transcript.

3. A legal writing sample, not to exceed 10 pages.

4. You will be required to submit proof of current membership, in good standing, with the appropriate licensing authority of any state or the District of Columbia prior to any formal job offer.

5. Information related to the skills and experience listed under the Evaluations section above, may be done on a separate document, or incorporate it within your resume.

You may find general application information and other forms at the website of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, www.usajobs.opm.gov.

None of the application documents will be returned.

In addition, the U.S. Coast Guard offers Career Transition Assistance Placement (CTAP) coverage to Attorneys within the Department of Homeland Security. Individuals who have special priority selection rights under CTAP provisions must be well qualified for the position to receive consideration for special priority selection. If you are eligible under CTAP, you must submit a copy of your certificate of surplus status, certificate of expected separation, or your specific Reduction-in-Force notice establishing your eligibility under CTAP, a copy of your most recent SF-50 noting current position, series, grade level and duty location. You must clearly indicate the grade from which you separated or declared surplus.

AGENCY CONTACT INFO:
USCG Applicant Support
Phone: 866-656-6830
Fax: 000-000-0000
Email: mgshelp at monster.com

Agency Information:
United States Coast Guard
1900 Half St., S.W.
JR-8-0807
Washington, DC 20593
Fax: 000-000-0000


WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT:
For information regarding the receipt of your application, you may call Robin Lewis at (202) 372-4445.

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From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Fri Sep 23 12:04:47 2011
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:04:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] With which Immigration Forms are people having the most
	trouble?
Message-ID: <2db8a.6bd49cdc.3badcfde@aol.com>

Hi All,
 
I was able to contact someone at DHS and USCIS and they want to work with  
us to resolve the issues with the inaccessibility of USCIS forms.  Can you  
let me know which forms are giving you the most trouble and why?
 
So far I've noticed that there are several common issues among many forms - 
 that in general, form fields are often either not tagged properly or are 
not  tagged at all, radio buttons are sometimes not labeled, and checkboxes 
are  either totally confusing because of incorrect tagging or are devoid of  
tagging.  There also appears to be some extraneous form fields beneath the  
footer/revision dates of the form, and some radio buttons for certain 
questions  are scattered all over the page.  Also, there is no consistency in 
whether  checkboxes and radio buttons appear before or after the statement to 
which they  apply, so the user is confused as to which is the corresponding 
question.   Section headings are often nonexistent, and questions that ask for 
multiple  pieces of information about multiple individuals (e.g. list all 
children, dates  of birth, addresses, place of birth, gender, etc.) are not 
in a tabular  structure so there just appear to be a host of form fields 
without labels or  tags.  Finally, some of the tags for form fields are missing 
spaces between  words or have improper spelling.
 
 
So far, the forms that I've identified with some or all of these problems  
are the following:
- Form G-1145
- Form AR-11
- Form G-28
- Form G-325A
- Form G-635
- Form I-130
- Form I-34
- Form I-485
 
Please let me know the form number and title of the specific form and what  
the problem with it is with regard to accessibility.  Please also let me  
know if you are aware of any other access issues common among forms to  
supplement the list above.
 
Thanks,
Ronza
   
 
 

From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep 28 23:07:05 2011
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:07:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED908B500C18@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



From: Jennifer Carter [mailto:jenniferc at wsba.org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:00 PM
To: leeperthuynguyen at yahoo.com; asb at bmatlaw.com; aaron at glblaw.com; edelossantos at trueblueinc.com; castillo.mimi at ymail.com; asachs at wrenngroup.com; boksulee at yahoo.com; dko at kellerrohrback.com; lopezf at seattleu.edu; DavisJK at LanePowell.com; nicole at gaineslawoffice.com; rblack at susmangodfrey.com; bramirez at bpmlaw.com; efry at sisna.com; dclarks at co.pierce.wa.us; Aravind.swaminathan at usdoj.gov; ty.ho at hoassociates.com; DINHS at FOSTER.COM; MLe at perkinscoie.com; stuarpix at microsoft.com; Nightingale, Noel; Jessica.skelton at pacificalawgroup.com; zanabugaighis at DWT.com; kerem at melegal.org; milliek at nwjustice.org
Cc: aneelah afzali
Subject: Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney

FYI!

Jennifer Carter| Diversity Program Coordinator
Washington State Bar Association |* 206.239.2116 | F 206.727.8319 | * jenniferc at wsba.org<mailto:jenniferd at wsba.org>
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 600 | Seattle, WA 98101 | www.wsba.org<http://www.wsba.org/>


Job Opening: CAIR-WA Seeks Staff Attorney
CAIR-WA seeks a qualified Staff Attorney to work in its Civil Rights Department

.

About CAIR-WA:  CAIR-Washington State is the local chapter of CAIR, the nation's largest Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization committed to building a stronger civic society and a more vibrant democracy.  Its mission is to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.  Learn more at www.cairseattle.org<http://www.cairseattle.org/> Our office is conveniently located near downtown Seattle just three blocks from Metro's International District tunnel station.



View our photos:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/49994784 at N05/sets/ <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyWBt5MvRO9IVSOZU9PtAWFOdATJ6yqqMFws8sn-X-xhBAzOkZuwE9BH7DSb-jw338Fp0QRd3LC2xlxz01kodY5JXtj3zKKyBkggqV93wr41I1KRKvYVYPpYzMTCQYL032VvYYMf2Wzsj_4uhqZuL-KH>
Watch our videos:  www.youtube.com/cairwashington<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyVBAkLqqLt6XyBPSnWyflYmOzMpn99tcNmoItGq5fVMVcXrlj6DYE_MrDfaWoLovoSbDef9EcvVwHGqzGy_PI2kQGeapDZfua5fiAhEYs2FSfKu1YZvRlFj> and www.youtube.com/cairtv  <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&et=1107652144186&s=1405&e=001Uy67X9PkGyX2vwfEegwdPSqMEXY2_RM-Ke1qznhKZlFQRO-o-aSNp4EwoEXraacle_RC42-mx9RSW9JO0rlqCx3ox3PwBIAnYUgtlZa-n2uqlwoPRLS7RA==>

RESPONSIBILITIES:
The Staff Attorney will engage in civil rights litigation and advocacy for CAIR, including but not limited to representing complainants who have experienced religious discrimination in negotiations with opposing parties; filing complaints, discovery, motions practice, court appearances, and trial if necessary; and identifying, recruiting, and collaborating with private attorneys on religious discrimination cases.



Religious discrimination may arise in areas including employment discrimination, police misconduct, government office discrimination, racial/religious profiling, school/university discrimination, immigration, family law, and defamation.



The Staff Attorney will be expected to identify, strategize and use creative legal solutions to address systematic issues affecting those who suffer discrimination in the full range of potential forums (not just litigation).  The Staff Attorney may also directly supervise the work of externs/interns in the department.

QUALIFICATIONS:

 *   Two-plus (2+) years litigation experience
 *   Familiarity with civil rights, employment law, immigration law, family law, criminal law, and constitutional  law
 *   Excellent oral and written communication and advocacy skills
 *   Strong ability to identify, recruit, and work with a number of private attorneys on cases
 *   Demonstrated commitment to protecting civil liberties in the United States
 *   High degree of initiative and willingness to work hard and collaborate with others
 *   Creativity, passion, determination, and a positive attitude
 *   Demonstrated organizational skills and ability to follow through on various ongoing and newly assigned case work
 *   Admittance to the Washington State Bar

Salary will range from $40k-$50k based on education, skills and experience. Benefits include paid holiday, vacation and sick leave.  Medical, dental, and vision benefits are offered after three months.



Application deadline is October 7, 2011.  Start date to be mutually determined.

Please submit a résumé, cover letter, two formal legal writing samples, and a list of at least three references.

CAIR - Washington State
9594 First Avenue NE, #272
Seattle, WA 98115
E-MAIL: info at cairseattle.org<mailto:info at cairseattle.org>

If applying via e-mail, please be sure to include the position title in the subject line.



Incomplete applications will not be processed.



CAIR-WA considers all candidates strictly on the basis of merit however Muslims are strongly encouraged to apply.



________________________________
________________________________




Forward email<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=cba4zlcab&m=1102055440418&ea=abukhari%40cair.com&a=1107652144186>

CAIR-Washington | 9594 1st Avenue NE, Suite 272 | Seattle | WA | 98115




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