[blindlaw] Bluebook

Mon Jul 20 15:16:15 UTC 2015

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here about what it
means to "build a foundation". I think I've said all I wish to say on
the matter, but I'll just conclude by noting that, my hour or so of
initial assistance from a sighted person notwithstanding, I somehow
seem to be managing to keep pace with the two of yall. I don't need a
sighted person to tell me what to do every time I need to look up a
new rule , I somehow manage to keep my head above water with my
journal, job, class, and social activities without asking for handouts
or reader accommodations. For me, that's quite enough evidence to feel
confident that I made a good and viable choice that others should be
free to make as well.

On 7/20/15, Derek Manners via blindlaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I can definitely understand going through things with a TA or a reader to
> learn the bluebook. But I found that I'm still "learning" the bluebook every
> time I use it. Between my internship at the Department of Defense, my work
> with a state AG, my work on an international human rights journal, and my
> work at a global law firm, I'm continuously finding new rules and being
> asked to cite obscure documents.
>
> I think the sooner you learn how to familiarize yourself with the bluebook
> and navigate its content, the better off you will be. I just don't think
> learning how to do U.S. cases, statutes, and law review articles from a
> reader makes a big difference. As you stated Al, this stuff is pretty easy.
> The hard part about the bluebook is the stuff you can only really learn
> through doing and learn through looking at it yourself over and over again.
>
> Michal, if I recall, you want to do international business.  If you do use a
> reader or TA, you may want to ask them to give you a little extra in the way
> of treaties and foreign law if possible.
>
> Best regards
> Derek Manners
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 20, 2015, at 10:05 AM, ALBERT ELIA via blindlaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I don't believe Laura was suggesting that a full-time reader at work was a
>> viable solution, but I do think that a reader is a viable solution to get
>> up to speed on citation formatting in the first weeks of law school.
>> Realistically, eighty to ninety percent of the citation formatting (cases)
>> can be learned in half an hour or so. At that point, all you really need
>> is an abbreviation cheat sheet, and perhaps a state citationn cheat sheet
>> and you're good to go. Granted, if you're going to do law review, you'll
>> need some additional info, but that would be the ten to twety percent.
>>
>> I do use the online bluebook, but mostly just for the really odd citations
>> (web articles, international cases and documents, etc). Most of what I use
>> everyday I got from going through the basics of citations with a TA during
>> the first week of law school. I didn't use a "reader" after that, but
>> using the TA was a vastly more efficient use of my time than figuring out
>> everything from the blue book. It may not work for everyone, and it may
>> not work if your reader isn't a blue book fiend, but it can work, and
>> there is no reason not to try it.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> /Æ
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Derek Manners via blindlaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Michal, I agree with Chris on this one. While a reader is the short term
>>> most efficient way to get through the bluebooking, I would never ask my
>>> firm to provide a reader. The more independent you can be, and you can be
>>> with the online version of the bluebook, the more likely you are to get a
>>> job from a pragmatic standpoint.
>>>
>>> I believe in the "nature of independence" and understand that being
>>> efficient sometimes means using sighted help. But you need to be able to
>>> do your job, when possible, when sighted folks aren't around. For
>>> example, I was working at 11 p.m. this Saturday on a brief. even if my
>>> firm provided a reader, they certainly wouldn't provide one at that hour.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Derek Manners
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Laura Wolk via blindlaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I understand that I may be opening Pandora's box here, but I feel
>>>> compelled to respond to this.
>>>>
>>>> I am at the top of my class. I am an editor on my law review. i am
>>>> finishing up the last week of a big law firm internship. I have
>>>> procured an appellate clerkship post-graduation. I have received the
>>>> top score on one of my seminar papers. And, my goodness, i asked for
>>>> sighted help to learn the bluebook.
>>>>
>>>> Though I do not usually use the list as an occasion to vaunt my
>>>> accomplishments, and my intent is not to get into a tit for tat
>>>> contest with Chris, I am utterly tired of the false and unhelpful
>>>> notion that there is one, and only one way, to be independent. I was
>>>> stripped of nothing by asking for a reader's assistance. I simply
>>>> chose the most efficient way for me, individually, to learn the
>>>> system. "stripping" would entail me giving my assignment to a reader
>>>> and saying "do this for me" not asking for assistance to learn the
>>>> skill in the best and most comprehensive way that fit my needs and
>>>> learning style. My reader didn't cite check my law review edits. my
>>>> reader didn't interview for my clerkship, my reader didn't write my
>>>> paper or fix my citations. What my reader did do was help to build up
>>>> a foundation so that I could spend my time on each of the above tasks
>>>> focused on the substance of what was in front of me rather than the
>>>> minutia of learning what to italicize and what to smallcaps.
>>>>
>>>> Do what works best for you, Michal. If that happens to involve a
>>>> sighted person or, for that matter, as Chris himself offered, speaking
>>>> to a blind person who will functionally be providing the exact same
>>>> information and help, go for it. the job in law school is to figure
>>>> out the best and most efficient process that will allow you to excel.
>>>> I wish you all the best.
>>>> PS, if you don't make, or don't try for law review, the world will go
>>>> on. I promise.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/15, Stewart, Christopher K via blindlaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Michal,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you copy and paste the Bluebook citation from the online system
>>>>> into Microsoft Word, then hit Jaws key plus F, JAWS will read the
>>>>> attributes that the online editor fails to read. This primarily only
>>>>> applies to smallcaps, which you will not use in court documents, but
>>>>> you'll likely need to know for your research/writing course. And, of
>>>>> course, you should strive to be on law review.
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely disagree with the notion that reader would assist you.
>>>>> All a reader would do is strip you of your independence in these
>>>>> matters. I'm an editor on my school's top law review, and in speaking
>>>>> with my sighted friends, the process of sourcing and citing articles
>>>>> is time-consuming and tedious for everyone. In fact, the sighted folks
>>>>> have to go through character by character as well to insure, for
>>>>> instance, that periods are not in small caps.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a Bluebooking nerd, and I'd be happy to discuss the online edition
>>>>> with you. By the way, the online edition is really the only useful
>>>>> way, currently, to get really specific information with 100% accuracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Laura Wolk
>>>> Notre Dame Law Review, Federal Courts and Submissions Editor, Vol. 91
>>>> Notre Dame Law School, J.D. Candidate, 2016
>>>> (484) 695-8234
>>>>
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>>
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-- 
Laura Wolk
Notre Dame Law Review, Federal Courts and Submissions Editor, Vol. 91
Notre Dame Law School, J.D. Candidate, 2016
(484) 695-8234