[blindlaw] decreasing reliance on readers as proofers

Sat Nov 12 21:27:58 UTC 2016

Laura,

I agree with the points you make and think a Wiki would be very
worthwhile. Stylistic mistakes like this are damaging. They suggest to
a sighted reader that the author has not taken trouble to correct what
are for them very obvious errors. However good the legal analysis in
your document (which clients are anyway often not best placed to
judge) that creates a bad impression.

Ger

On 11/12/16, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Miss Chang,
>
> It took a little digging with iOS new structure of emails but I found your
> email thread in response to my post asking questions about readers. It had a
> different subject and therefore was not a direct response to my post.
>
> We have the same idea. But did someone throw you out the door and say have
> fun here you go or did they help you learn what needed to be corrected? It
> would not be wise to throw your dog out in the middle of a deep Lake without
> first making sure he could swim and helping him become a better swimmer
> before you throw him in the lake.
>
> Maybe we should consider developing a functional mentoring program. That
> could help eliminate some of these issues.  One can't really make an
> accurate assessment of another's character until they spend significant time
> interacting with that person.
>
>
> Aimee
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Sybren Hoekstra via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> This is a really good idea. It might also be useful to compile a list of
>> the various tricks that people use with different screen readers to ensure
>> proper formatting.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 14:02, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This message is in response to Patti's observation that blind students
>>> and attorneys sometimes rely too much on their readers, an observation
>>> with which I generally agree.
>>>
>>> But I don't think this is the entire problem.  i think, in large part,
>>> blind people don't even know what questions to ask, because it is hard
>>> to know what errors are out there unless someone thinks to tell you.
>>> I have been inordinately blessed by friends who have given me tips and
>>> tricks both on style and also on mechanics about which I was utterly
>>> clueless.  Things like the fact that if you copy and paste directly
>>> from Westlaw, your quotation marks and apostrophes will look different
>>> than those that arise when typing directly into word. Or, if typing a
>>> single-spaced document with footnotes, it may behoove you to put a
>>> blank line between the footnotes for ease of a sighted person's
>>> reading smaller text.  or that global format changes such as
>>> justifying text "above the line" do not transfer to your footnotes,
>>> resulting in your footnotes remaining unjustified.  Or how you can
>>> connect a heading with the first line immediately following it to
>>> ensure that your headings are never on one page with the accompanying
>>> text on the next page.  These are all things about which I had no
>>> intuitive knowledge as a completely blind person.  Without having been
>>> told, I would never even have known to ask the question, and would
>>> have continued turning in documents with quite obvious errors that
>>> even proofing with braille would not have caught.
>>>
>>> I think it would be beneficial for these purposes for the NFb lawyers
>>> division to compile a list of similar formatting issues, perhaps in a
>>> wiki-type format so that everyone could contribute.  Of course, some
>>> of these things come down to stylistic preference, but many of them
>>> don't.  Has anyone else ever thought of this?
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>> On 11/11/16, Chang, Patti via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I think the bigger question here is what should you be doing. If you
>>>> rely
>>>> too much on your readers for proofing then you do not become a really
>>>> good
>>>> proofer   for yourself. We should all use Proof readers in the final
>>>> instance to catch visual things we miss but I see too many students
>>>> were
>>>> lying to heavily on their proofers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Every day we raise the expectations of blind people in the National
>>>> Federation of the Blind."
>>>>
>>>> Patti S.  Gregory Chang Esq.
>>>> Director of Outreach
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> Direct phone: (410) 659-9314 extension 2422
>>>> Mobile: (773) 307-6440
>>>> WWW.NFB.org<http://WWW.NFB.org>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greetings everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I am getting a reader who is paid by the state.  This reader will
>>>> perform
>>>> reading of any material for school purposes that I need them to read.
>>>> They
>>>> will also proof any assignments before I hand them in.  I will use them
>>>> during research to help locate something on the screen that is hard to
>>>> locate it is too time consuming to navigate to just to get that one bit
>>>> of
>>>> info. Basically the individual will assist with anything vision
>>>> related.
>>>>
>>>> My school assigns a judicial opinion the first semester of the 1L year.
>>>> All
>>>> graded assignments have restrictions on students getting outside
>>>> assistance.
>>>> We are not allowed to let anyone see our work or assist us in any way
>>>> regarding the assignment including research. If a student violates any
>>>> of
>>>> the restrictions, they violate the honor code.
>>>>
>>>> Now that you have the basic situation, can the school penalize me for
>>>> using
>>>> a reader to assist me in any visual aspect of the assignment? If I use
>>>> the
>>>> reader to verify the formatting or point out any issues they see that I
>>>> may
>>>> have missed because I didn't see it?  What about penalizing me for using
>>>> the
>>>> reader to assist in research to find what I ask them to find  or
>>>> highlight
>>>> what I ask them to highlight? Basically, can they penalize me for the
>>>> reader
>>>> performing non-essential tasks on graded assignments?  How much control
>>>> does
>>>> the school have over the person paid by the state to assist with outside
>>>> of
>>>> class activities as long as I am the one doing the legal work?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aimee
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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