From montascarlos267 at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 01:42:24 2018 From: montascarlos267 at gmail.com (carlos Montas) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Questions about law school and what it takes to succeed Message-ID: <25B0714B-5AD7-4F22-A722-A0DD99997889@gmail.com> Good evening listers. My name is Carlos Montas and I have been a long time member of the National Federation of the Blind. For a while I have thought about law school but I am not sure I am gifted enough to complete it. In looking back at your experience what were the keys to being able to complete law school and pass the bar exam? What set of skills are the most important for a blind student to succeed in the legal profession? Do you all believe law schooll could be completed on line? There is a school in California that has an online program. I would be interested to here every ones thoughts on my questions. Sincerely, Carlos Montas Sent from my iPhone From glnorman15 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 03:03:04 2018 From: glnorman15 at hotmail.com (GL Norman) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 03:03:04 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] "Save the Date" Disab. International/Civil Rights Message-ID: Trans-Atlantic Reflection on Power of Technology for Inclusion February 22, 2019 at the German Marshall Fund of the U.S. Gary C. Norman, Esq. L.L.M. (AMMF 2008) Convener Debra V. Hamilton, Esq. Hamilton Law and Mediation, PLLC Master of Ceremony and Co-Facilitator For accommodations or for reservations, contact the German Marshall Fund of the U.S. Join one of our distinguished alumni of the AMMF program, and a lawyer with a disability, to engage in a coffee conversation (or other beverage with light snacks) on the role technology will play and will continue to play, in either building or in eroding diversity and inclusion, as well as civil rights, in the Trans-Atlantic partnership. Join him at 1:30 P.M. 1744 R. Street, N.W. Upstairs in the board room (Elevator access available) Gary, the robust commentary of other alumni, as well as European interlocuters, will seek to arrive at a consensus-based document of recommendations on the impact of technology on civil rights and human rights. Kerry Thompson and he co-hosted and co-implemented two dialogues in 2018 as part of an Alumni Action grant. As follow-up to his joint dialogue work and his column in the Maryland Daily Record on technology and civil rights, we host this conversation exploring: * Is technology, such as social media, connecting us or further eroding us as Trans-Atlantic leaders? Especially in terms of democracy and inclusion? * Is our technology eco system fully accessible yet to a range of populations, such as the disabled? * What role will AI play in expanding or in eroding civil rights? * Is there a Trans-Atlantic business case for diversity and inclusion, and ensuring technology supports this? For general questions, please telephone Gary C. Norman, Esq. L.L.M. at (410) 241-6745. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Dec 3 23:05:43 2018 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 23:05:43 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Bilingual Staff Attorney at Northwest Immigrants Rights Project Seattle Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 3:02 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Bilingual Staff Attorney at NWIRP Seattle Bilingual Staff Attorney at NWIRP Seattle The Northwest Immigrant Rights Project (NWIRP) seeks a Spanish speaking bilingual staff attorney, or law graduate, taking the July 2019 bar examination, to provide direct representation, community outreach and education to individuals seeking legal assistance in a variety of immigration matters. The staff attorney will provide legal assistance to community members through: (1) direct representation (2) individual consultations; (3) self-help assistance in the form of community workshops and legal clinics; and (4) community education. The attorney will focus on providing representation and legal assistance on a wide range of immigration cases including matters involving removal proceedings, Special Immigrant Juvenile Status (SIJS) petitions and applicable state court custody matters, asylum applications, protections for survivors of domestic violence and other crimes (including U visas), and citizenship applications. The staff attorney may also be assigned work relating to other immigration matters. For more information, click here or see the posting attached. -- Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NWIRPGrangerAttorneyDec2018.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 530871 bytes Desc: NWIRPGrangerAttorneyDec2018.pdf URL: From sai at fiatfiendum.org Tue Dec 4 11:55:44 2018 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 11:55:44 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Fwd: [foianet] Disability and Information: What are your rights? - ARTICLE 19 In-Reply-To: <8F3BACF2-3BFC-4585-95BF-3BD6ABABC908@article19.org> References: <8F3BACF2-3BFC-4585-95BF-3BD6ABABC908@article19.org> Message-ID: <9be5dd31-3311-fc84-162d-e06eea7d569a@fiatfiendum.org> FOI-L, Blindlaw: Thought this might be of interest to you. Y'all already know my opinions about FOIA and accessibility. Does anyone know of any US case law about FOIA requests for Braille or ASL "form or format" / § 508 accommodation? I've not seen any at all. The closest I know of is only partially-related case law about electronic format documents. Sincerely, Sai President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: David Banisar Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 16:49:47 +0000 To: foianet Hello all, On International Day of Disabled Persons, we are organising an event in Tunisia and releasing the ATI law in Braille and summaries in sign language and orally (see ) as well as a report on Morocco (coming soon). In the meanwhile, enjoy these infographics on linking RTI and rights under the  UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD). Dave Disability and Information: What are your rights? Posted on December 03, 2018 ["Panos" image description: A tutor signs lessons for deaf students in a classroom at the Noida Deaf Society.] People with disabilities need access to information if they are to take part in societal debates, engage in political systems, and address long histories of political and economic exclusion, because many still face attitudinal and environmental barriers to participation in many areas of life. However, many persons with disabilities are not able to access the information they need. People with disabilities should be able to exercise the same rights to freedom of expression and information as other people and through all forms of communication of their choice. The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD) also protects freedom of expression and the right to information. Article 21 says that states should “take all appropriate measures to ensure that persons with disabilities can exercise the right to freedom of expression and opinion, including the freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas on an equal basis with others and through all forms of communication of their choice”. Read the leaflet [English] https://www.article19.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Disability_leaflet_English.pdf Read the leaflet [Arabic] https://www.article19.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Disability_leaflet-ARABIC.pdf David Banisar Senior Legal Counsel & Head of Transparency E banisar at article19.org T +44 20 7324 2500 F +44 20 7490 0566 W www.article19.org Tw @a19right2info Fa facebook.com/article19org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Panos_00232166.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 337261 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A19 Disability_leaflet_English.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 397191 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A19 Disability_leaflet-ARABIC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 170588 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Dec 7 17:18:48 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:18:48 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <029101d48e50$eac11fc0$c0435f40$@labarrelaw.com> From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, December 7, 2018 7:37 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans , LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities . We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Summer 2019 Law Clerk State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 7, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Central District of California Job Title Uncompensated Special Assistant U.S. Attorney (SAUSA) State California Posted/ Updated December 6, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Hawaii Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Hawaii Posted/ Updated December 6, 2018 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Summer- Appellate Staff State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 6, 2018 Hiring Organization Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Job Title SUPVY GENERAL ATTORNEY - DAD State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 4, 2018 Hiring Organization Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Job Title General Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 4, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Tennessee Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) State Tennessee Posted/ Updated December 4, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Tennessee Job Title ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY (AUSA) State Tennessee Posted/ Updated December 4, 2018 Hiring Organization Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Job Title Attorney State Virginia Posted/ Updated December 4, 2018 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 - National Courts Section State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 3, 2018 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Student Volunteer State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 3, 2018 Hiring Organization Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Job Title General Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 3, 2018 Hiring Organization Executive Office for United States Attorneys (EOUSA) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year or Summer State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 3, 2018 Hiring Organization National Security Division (NSD) Job Title Attorney Advisor(s) State Posted/ Updated December 1, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Minnesota Job Title Fall 2019 - Spring 2020 Volunteer Law Intern State Minnesota Posted/ Updated November 30, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Minnesota Job Title Volunteer Law Intern, Summer 2019 State Minnesota Posted/ Updated November 30, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Texas Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 State Texas Posted/ Updated November 30, 2018 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Attorney Advisor State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated November 30, 2018 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title 2019 Summer Intern - DOJ Executive Office for Immigration Review/Miami Immigration Court State Florida Posted/ Updated November 30, 2018 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rthomas48 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 02:34:36 2018 From: rthomas48 at gmail.com (Roderick Thomas) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:34:36 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company Message-ID: Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. From r.g.munro at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 02:45:08 2018 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:45:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used the Barbri course in 2010 and passed with it's help. The Iphone app was accessible then. Remember to think like a lawyer; if you can't think of the rule the question is asking about, write down a rule and apply it. You'll get partial points at least that way. Good luck, and congratulations in advance. Onward! Rob > On Dec 8, 2018, at 21:34, Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 17:37:15 2018 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 12:37:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Barberry is a good company. Most of their materials are in audio format. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 8, 2018, at 9:34 PM, Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 19:30:45 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 14:30:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D2E64D0-AB72-436C-9788-0A9A50497FEA@gmail.com> I used Themis. There were one or two minor accessibility issues that were easily fixed, and the material was fantastic and pretty reflective of the difficulty of the test. I passed my first time around. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 9, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw wrote: > > Barberry is a good company. Most of their materials are in audio format. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 8, 2018, at 9:34 PM, Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From NSingh at cov.com Mon Dec 10 13:30:18 2018 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:30:18 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations team very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM To: blind law Cc: Roderick Thomas Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Dec 10 14:25:34 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 07:25:34 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> I believe also that a relatively recent settlement with BARBRI improved accessibility of their offerings. People should also be aware that law students who join the ABA as a paid member at some very low cost like $25 a year get a substantial discount on BARBRI programs. Best, Scott -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:30 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Singh, Nandini Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations team very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM To: blind law Cc: Roderick Thomas Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with Jaws. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Dec 10 15:16:35 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:16:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> References: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> I used Kaplan. I wasn't blown away by the content, and the accessibility of their native applications left a lot to be desired. But they sent me all of the materials in accessible format without too much fuss. On 12/10/2018 9:25 AM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > I believe also that a relatively recent settlement with BARBRI improved > accessibility of their offerings. People should also be aware that law > students who join the ABA as a paid member at some very low cost like $25 a > year get a substantial discount on BARBRI programs. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, Nandini via > BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:30 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Singh, Nandini > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. > For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations team > very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roderick > Thomas via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM > To: blind law > Cc: Roderick Thomas > Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in > Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, and I > have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one have any > suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most compatible with > Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From ttomasi at driowa.org Mon Dec 10 15:32:41 2018 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:32:41 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> References: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I used Barbri prior to the settlement Scott mentioned. At that time, I was unimpressed by the accessibility of the electronic content. The web materials were largely inaccessible, as were the written materials in the app. I could access the video lectures through the app without difficulty, but I couldn't complete many of the online exercises. However, Barbri did send me all of the materials in Braille and accessible electronic format without too much fuss. Essentially, I studied the old fashioned way without any of the online content and daily online practice questions students currently benefit from. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of James T. Fetter via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 9:17 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com; Blind Law Mailing List Cc: James T. Fetter Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used Kaplan. I wasn't blown away by the content, and the accessibility of their native applications left a lot to be desired. But they sent me all of the materials in accessible format without too much fuss. On 12/10/2018 9:25 AM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > I believe also that a relatively recent settlement with BARBRI > improved accessibility of their offerings. People should also be > aware that law students who join the ABA as a paid member at some very > low cost like $25 a year get a substantial discount on BARBRI programs. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, > Nandini via BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:30 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Singh, Nandini > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. > For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations > team very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM > To: blind law > Cc: Roderick Thomas > Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in > Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, > and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one > have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most > compatible with Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo > .com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 20:20:55 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:20:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a801d490c5$db63e0e0$922ba2a0$@gmail.com> Here is the public consent decree with Barbri: www.washlaw.org/pdf/2018_01_24_consent__decree_barbri.PDF. I was one of the attorneys for the Plaintiffs which resulted in the consent decree. Since the settlement, there have been a couple of students who have used it and it has reportedly been better. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:33 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Tai Tomasi Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used Barbri prior to the settlement Scott mentioned. At that time, I was unimpressed by the accessibility of the electronic content. The web materials were largely inaccessible, as were the written materials in the app. I could access the video lectures through the app without difficulty, but I couldn't complete many of the online exercises. However, Barbri did send me all of the materials in Braille and accessible electronic format without too much fuss. Essentially, I studied the old fashioned way without any of the online content and daily online practice questions students currently benefit from. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of James T. Fetter via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 9:17 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com; Blind Law Mailing List Cc: James T. Fetter Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used Kaplan. I wasn't blown away by the content, and the accessibility of their native applications left a lot to be desired. But they sent me all of the materials in accessible format without too much fuss. On 12/10/2018 9:25 AM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > I believe also that a relatively recent settlement with BARBRI > improved accessibility of their offerings. People should also be > aware that law students who join the ABA as a paid member at some very > low cost like $25 a year get a substantial discount on BARBRI programs. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, > Nandini via BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:30 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Singh, Nandini > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. > For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations > team very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM > To: blind law > Cc: Roderick Thomas > Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in > Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, > and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one > have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most > compatible with Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo > .com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From mnowicki4 at icloud.com Mon Dec 10 20:38:07 2018 From: mnowicki4 at icloud.com (Michal Nowicki) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:38:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I took the Barbri course last summer (Summer 2018). Although the Barbri assistive site was supposed to be fully functional by that time according to the settlement agreement, it contained several broken links when the course started. However, after I reported the problems, Barbri fixed them within 2-3 weeks. The electronic books were easy to navigate with JAWS. The iPhone app remained largely inaccessible when my course ended, but under the settlement agreement, it is supposed to be accessible starting with this winter’s course. Best, Michal Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 9:33 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Tai Tomasi Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used Barbri prior to the settlement Scott mentioned. At that time, I was unimpressed by the accessibility of the electronic content. The web materials were largely inaccessible, as were the written materials in the app. I could access the video lectures through the app without difficulty, but I couldn't complete many of the online exercises. However, Barbri did send me all of the materials in Braille and accessible electronic format without too much fuss. Essentially, I studied the old fashioned way without any of the online content and daily online practice questions students currently benefit from. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of James T. Fetter via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 9:17 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com; Blind Law Mailing List Cc: James T. Fetter Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company I used Kaplan. I wasn't blown away by the content, and the accessibility of their native applications left a lot to be desired. But they sent me all of the materials in accessible format without too much fuss. On 12/10/2018 9:25 AM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > I believe also that a relatively recent settlement with BARBRI > improved accessibility of their offerings. People should also be > aware that law students who join the ABA as a paid member at some very > low cost like $25 a year get a substantial discount on BARBRI programs. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, > Nandini via BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:30 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Singh, Nandini > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > I used BARBRI's laptop application in 2015 for NY with no major problems. > For the couple of relatively minor issues, I found the accommodations > team very responsive and helpful. I passed my first time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 9:35 PM > To: blind law > Cc: Roderick Thomas > Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company > > Hey guys, my name is Roderick and I am a blind law school student in > Orlando, Florida. i am coming up on my last semester in law school, > and I have not decided what bar company I should choose. Does any one > have any suggestions? I would like to take a bar company that is most > compatible with Jaws. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo > .com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mnowicki4%40icloud.com From jim at skamarakas.com Mon Dec 10 22:52:22 2018 From: jim at skamarakas.com (jim at skamarakas.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:52:22 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing a bar review company In-Reply-To: References: <000601d49094$3727c5e0$a57751a0$@labarrelaw.com> <77ca8068-2d4e-ff50-31af-5e116055ba8d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No one has mentioned this, so let me explain a key difference between BARBRI and THEMIS I took and past NJ UBE this summer using BARBRI I was also in the middle of huge home repair project. I spent every nice day sitting in a swimming pool. BARBRI lectures go for hours, with a break. Hands free studying. I am doing the PA in Feb 2019, and using THEMIS, just so I can have a different program, and not skip over stuff I think I know. THEMIS is a lot of little chapters, with mini quizzes I know not everyone is going to be sitting in a swimming pool, listening to lectures for days on end on speakers so loud your neighbor asks when WE are taking the bar exam. And complaining that I've ruined every TV court show with facts and real law. The lectures, and how they quiz you on topics is a major part of the study program. I know using JAWS, links and costs are all very important factors. But don't forget the most important part - we want you to get a great score and great news months later when you pass. I'm glad I had BARBRI in the summer and now doing THEMIS in the winter. I put on a nice tan. From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 17:24:05 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:24:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Barristers in England Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I hope this message finds you well. I am currently pursuing my postgraduate education at the University of Oxford and exploring the possibility of becoming a barrister in the UK, to be able to practise in UK courts. I was hoping to connect with visually challenged people who have gone down this route, to acquire a deeper appreciation of the manner in which their disability may have impacted their work and the accessibility of the legal profession in the UK for the blind more generally. I'd be very grateful if you could put me in touch with anyone who meets this description. Thank you. Best, Rahul From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Dec 12 20:08:37 2018 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 20:08:37 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Job Opportunities Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 11:49 AM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Job Opportunities Perkins Coie LLP is continuing their search for associates to join their Emerging Companies and Venture Capital group in Seattle. The following two listing are open for application. 1. Emerging Companies & Venture Capital Associate Attorney - Junior Job #A20180604 – Seattle, Washington The Seattle office of Perkins Coie is seeking an experienced associate to join its market-leading Corporate group. The group's clients range from early stage startups to mature industry leaders and include many of the region's premier venture-backed and public companies. The group is experiencing strong growth and has particular need in the Emerging Companies and Venture Capital practice. Candidates should have solid academic credentials and at least 1 year of experience. This is an excellent opportunity to join a collegial office environment while working closely with experienced practitioners on sophisticated matters at a national level. To apply, please click on the link below and attach your cover letter, resume, and law school transcript. Junior ECVC Associate 1. Emerging Companies & Venture Capital Associate Attorney - Midlevel Job #A20180203 – Seattle, Washington The Seattle office of Perkins Coie is seeking an experienced associate to join its market-leading Corporate group. The group's clients range from early stage startups to mature industry leaders and include many of the region's premier venture-backed and public companies. The group is experiencing strong growth and has particular need in the Emerging Companies and Venture Capital practice. Candidates should have solid academic credentials and at least 3 years of experience. This is an excellent opportunity to join a collegial office environment while working closely with experienced practitioners on sophisticated matters at a national level. To apply, please click on the link below and attach your cover letter, resume, and law school transcript. Mid-Level ECVC Associate Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Dec 13 21:40:19 2018 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:40:19 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] TeamChild is hiring! Washington State Message-ID: From: David Huneryager Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 1:15 PM To: ATJ Community Subject: [atj-community] Fwd: TeamChild is hiring! Greetings all, TeamChild is hiring a Juvenile Rehabilitation Institutions & Reentry Staff Attorney to join our King County office. I have attached the job description to this email, and it can also be found on our website at teamchild.org/careers. Please share with your network! We are also still accepting applications for these positions: Yakima County Managing Attorney King County Staff Attorney Pierce County Program Assistant Thank you! -- David Huneryager TeamChild, Director of Legal Services Pronouns: He, Him, His 1225 S. Weller Street, Suite 420 Seattle, WA 98144 Phone: 206.322.2466 FAX: 206.381.1742 david.huneryager at teamchild.org NOTICE: This electronic communication and any attachments may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you have received it in error, please advise the sender by reply email and immediately and permanently delete the message and any attachments without copying, transmitting, or disclosing the contents. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to atj-community as: daquiz.abigail at dol.gov. To access web features of this list, visit list.wsba.org/read/ Please send an email to the list administrator to update the list administrator with changes to your email address. -- -- You received this message because you are a federal agency attorney and subscribed to the FANGS group. To SEND A MESSAGE to this group, email to fangseattle at googlegroups.com. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, email fangseattle+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fangseattle?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Federal Attorneys Networking Group of Seattle" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fangseattle+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: TeamChild Pierce County Program Assistant Job Description - Final.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 176332 bytes Desc: TeamChild Pierce County Program Assistant Job Description - Final.pdf URL: From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Dec 14 13:40:21 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:40:21 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003901d493b2$8f877cf0$ae9676d0$@labarrelaw.com> fyi From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 6:17 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans , LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities . We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Georgia Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Georgia Posted/ Updated December 14, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of the Virgin Islands Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) State Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Middle District of Alabama Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Alabama Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Law Clerk State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 (Tax Division) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (Civil Division- San Francisco, CA) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019, Fall 2019 & Spring 2020 (Civil Division- San Jose, CA) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 (Civil Division- San Francisco, CA) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 (Criminal Division- San Francisco and Oakland) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 (Criminal Division- San Jose, CA) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (Criminal Division- San Jose, CA) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (Tax Division) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of California Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (Criminal Division- San Francisco or Oakland) State California Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization Executive Office for United States Attorneys (EOUSA) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year or Summer State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Puerto Rico Job Title TERM AUSA State Puerto Rico Posted/ Updated December 13, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Alaska Job Title AUSA State Alaska Posted/ Updated December 12, 2018 Hiring Organization Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) Job Title Attorney Advisor State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 12, 2018 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Law Student Volunteer State Michigan Posted/ Updated December 12, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of Michigan Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Michigan Posted/ Updated December 11, 2018 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Intellectual Property Law Enforcement Coordinator (IPLEC), Romania State Posted/ Updated December 11, 2018 Hiring Organization Office of Legal Policy (OLP) Job Title Summer Law Student Volunteer State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 11, 2018 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019 State New Jersey Posted/ Updated December 11, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Southern District of California Job Title Special Assistant United States Attorney State California Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Southern District of California Job Title Special Assistant United States Attorney State California Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO District of Delaware Job Title Assistant U.S. Attorney State Delaware Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Immigration Judge State Virginia Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Middle District of Pennsylvania Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Pennsylvania Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Middle District of Pennsylvania Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Pennsylvania Posted/ Updated December 10, 2018 Hiring Organization USAO Southern District of Texas Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Texas Posted/ Updated December 9, 2018 Hiring Organization National Security Division (NSD) Job Title LAW STUDENT VOLUNTEER, SPRING 2019 /SUMMER 2019 /FALL 2019, FOREIGN INVESTMENT REVIEW STAFF (FIRS) State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated December 8, 2018 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 14 20:42:14 2018 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 20:42:14 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Fair Work Center Job Posting Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 9:54 AM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Fair Work Center Job Posting The Fair Work Center, a non-profit, employment law-focused legal services organization, is looking to hire a Managing Attorney to oversee its employment law clinic operations. We’d love it if you could pass this announcement along to your membership. The job posting is attached to this email in pdf format, and a link to the web posting is here: https://www.fairworkcenter.org/about-us/jobs/job-announcement-legal-clinic-managing-attorney/ . The application deadline is January 4, 2019. Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Fair Work Center Managing Attorney Announcement_.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 184339 bytes Desc: Fair Work Center Managing Attorney Announcement_.pdf URL: From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 00:08:27 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:08:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance References: <54791BA6-53CB-47CB-AF75-7B65B075BB87@blairco.org> Message-ID: <164BC899-6F57-4F9B-BB47-35A7C0E26B78@gmail.com> > My workplace just adopted a service animal policy. As part of that policy, they are demanding that I provide a certificate of personal liability insurance for my guide dog. I do not believe this is legal, and I have never had aworkplace or other institution demand this. Can anyone confirm the legality of this? (I should probably email NAGDU as well.) > > Sent from my iPhone From joefagnani at atlanticbb.net Sat Dec 15 00:23:08 2018 From: joefagnani at atlanticbb.net (Joseph Fagnani) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:23:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance References: <54791BA6-53CB-47CB-AF75-7B65B075BB87@blairco.org> <164BC899-6F57-4F9B-BB47-35A7C0E26B78@gmail.com> Message-ID: Illegal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" To: Cc: "kelby carlson" Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:08 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance > My workplace just adopted a service animal policy. As part of that policy, > they are demanding that I provide a certificate of personal liability > insurance for my guide dog. I do not believe this is legal, and I have > never had aworkplace or other institution demand this. Can anyone confirm > the legality of this? (I should probably email NAGDU as well.) > > Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 00:27:17 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:27:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance In-Reply-To: References: <54791BA6-53CB-47CB-AF75-7B65B075BB87@blairco.org> <164BC899-6F57-4F9B-BB47-35A7C0E26B78@gmail.com> Message-ID: I assume so, but can you give me a statutory citation or case law that I can provide to HR that makes this clear? Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2018, at 7:23 PM, Joseph Fagnani via BlindLaw wrote: > > Illegal. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" > To: > Cc: "kelby carlson" > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance > > >> My workplace just adopted a service animal policy. As part of that policy, >> they are demanding that I provide a certificate of personal liability >> insurance for my guide dog. I do not believe this is legal, and I have >> never had aworkplace or other institution demand this. Can anyone confirm >> the legality of this? (I should probably email NAGDU as well.) >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From joefagnani at atlanticbb.net Sat Dec 15 00:44:14 2018 From: joefagnani at atlanticbb.net (Joseph Fagnani) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:44:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance References: <54791BA6-53CB-47CB-AF75-7B65B075BB87@blairco.org><164BC899-6F57-4F9B-BB47-35A7C0E26B78@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, but if you find it, post it to the list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" To: "Blind Law Mailing List" Cc: "kelby carlson" Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance I assume so, but can you give me a statutory citation or case law that I can provide to HR that makes this clear? Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2018, at 7:23 PM, Joseph Fagnani via BlindLaw > wrote: > > Illegal. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" > To: > Cc: "kelby carlson" > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance > > >> My workplace just adopted a service animal policy. As part of that >> policy, >> they are demanding that I provide a certificate of personal liability >> insurance for my guide dog. I do not believe this is legal, and I have >> never had aworkplace or other institution demand this. Can anyone confirm >> the legality of this? (I should probably email NAGDU as well.) >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net From ttomasi at driowa.org Sat Dec 15 04:14:52 2018 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:14:52 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance In-Reply-To: References: <54791BA6-53CB-47CB-AF75-7B65B075BB87@blairco.org><164BC899-6F57-4F9B-BB47-35A7C0E26B78@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <5C23FCD1-2178-4C2B-8C7D-58E0A5F2EE31@driowa.org> I haven’t found a case that specifically addresses the liability concern, but here is a good starting point with an overview of what is appropriate. This blog entry includes citations to cases. http://www.williamgoren.com/blog/2016/10/31/service-dogs-emotional-support-animals-employment-title-i-ada/ Tai Tomasi, J.D., M.P.A. Email: ttomasi at driowa.org Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse my brevity and any grammatical errors. On Dec 14, 2018, at 6:45 PM, Joseph Fagnani via BlindLaw > wrote: No, but if you find it, post it to the list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" > To: "Blind Law Mailing List" > Cc: "kelby carlson" > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance I assume so, but can you give me a statutory citation or case law that I can provide to HR that makes this clear? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2018, at 7:23 PM, Joseph Fagnani via BlindLaw > wrote: Illegal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kelby carlson via BlindLaw" > To: > Cc: "kelby carlson" > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 7:08 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance My workplace just adopted a service animal policy. As part of that policy, they are demanding that I provide a certificate of personal liability insurance for my guide dog. I do not believe this is legal, and I have never had aworkplace or other institution demand this. Can anyone confirm the legality of this? (I should probably email NAGDU as well.) Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joefagnani%40atlanticbb.net _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From laura.wolk at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 19:22:29 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 14:22:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Message-ID: I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 21:10:05 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 21:10:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this update, Laura. While I haven't had to use track changes extensively for a while, one follow-up: if it reports that there are more changes than there actually are, it is not clear to me how that creates a false sense of security that one has reviewed all the revisions made. Wouldn't it instead be the case that one would be left feeling that one has not reviewed all the revisions made, when in reality you will have done that? Please correct me if I didn't understand your mail correctly. I just want to acquire a clearer picture of the problem in order to be able to get back to FS if this needs further work at this juncture. Best, Rahul

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On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of > traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on > this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will > announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This > is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to > display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false > sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision > when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you > haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible > inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from > only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple > streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to > accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be > forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the > elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 21:51:44 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 16:51:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D9273DD-4AC1-4D0D-B318-F122145955E3@gmail.com> Sorry for any confusion. What I'm saying is that jaws will say "there are 142 revisions in this document" and display 142. But actually there are 210. Perhaps this is the problems others were having before, but for me, other than footnotes, Jaws was accurate or it just said "there are no revisions to display." Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rahul Bajaj wrote: > > Thanks for this update, Laura. While I haven't had to use track > changes extensively for a while, one follow-up: if it reports that > there are more changes than there actually are, it is not clear to me > how that creates a false sense of security that one has reviewed all > the revisions made. Wouldn't it instead be the case that one would be > left feeling that one has not reviewed all the revisions made, when in > reality you will have done that? > > Please correct me if I didn't understand your mail correctly. I just > want to acquire a clearer picture of the problem in order to be able > to get back to FS if this needs further work at this juncture. > > Best, > Rahul > >> On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >> traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on >> this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >> >> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >> announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This >> is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false >> sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision >> when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you >> haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from >> only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple >> streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 08:03:09 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 08:03:09 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <5D9273DD-4AC1-4D0D-B318-F122145955E3@gmail.com> References: <5D9273DD-4AC1-4D0D-B318-F122145955E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Okay, right. This problem often arises even when you try to go through revisions by using the quick navigation keys - JAWS will say that there are no more revisions in the document when in actuality there are. The only way that I have found of ensuring that no revisions get left behind is setting custom keystrokes for moving to the previous and next revision. One potential solution could be to make sure that you get to the end of the document by pressing control+end to ensure that JAWS has the entire document in its field of vision when preparing the list of revisions. If the problem still persists, this must be because, even though they have expanded the list of revisions JAWS can display in the virtual viewer, it still hasn't been sufficiently expanded to capture all revisions. I will point this out to FS. I would be grateful if you could do so, too. Best, Rahul

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On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk wrote: > Sorry for any confusion. What I'm saying is that jaws will say "there are > 142 revisions in this document" and display 142. But actually there are 210. > Perhaps this is the problems others were having before, but for me, other > than footnotes, Jaws was accurate or it just said "there are no revisions to > display." > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rahul Bajaj >> wrote: >> >> Thanks for this update, Laura. While I haven't had to use track >> changes extensively for a while, one follow-up: if it reports that >> there are more changes than there actually are, it is not clear to me >> how that creates a false sense of security that one has reviewed all >> the revisions made. Wouldn't it instead be the case that one would be >> left feeling that one has not reviewed all the revisions made, when in >> reality you will have done that? >> >> Please correct me if I didn't understand your mail correctly. I just >> want to acquire a clearer picture of the problem in order to be able >> to get back to FS if this needs further work at this juncture. >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >>> On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on >>> this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This >>> is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false >>> sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision >>> when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you >>> haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from >>> only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple >>> streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>> > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 14:36:45 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 09:36:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <5D9273DD-4AC1-4D0D-B318-F122145955E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7161887A-2D61-42D0-970E-5555E4EE0721@gmail.com> Oh trust me. I absolutely plan to, and I suggest that anyone who has any aspirations of actually functioning as a lawyer in the twenty-first century on equal footing without needing to take more than twice as long to complete an assignment for no reason other than the fact that this company can't get it together does the same. I will try the control plus end trick to see if that works. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 16, 2018, at 3:03 AM, Rahul Bajaj wrote: > > Okay, right. This problem often arises even when you try to go through > revisions by using the quick navigation keys - JAWS will say that > there are no more revisions in the document when in actuality there > are. The only way that I have found of ensuring that no revisions get > left behind is setting custom keystrokes for moving to the previous > and next revision. One potential solution could be to make sure that > you get to the end of the document by pressing control+end to ensure > that JAWS has the entire document in its field of vision when > preparing the list of revisions. If the problem still persists, this > must be because, even though they have expanded the list of revisions > JAWS can display in the virtual viewer, it still hasn't been > sufficiently expanded to capture all revisions. > > I will point this out to FS. I would be grateful if you could do so, too. > > Best, > Rahul > >> On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk wrote: >> Sorry for any confusion. What I'm saying is that jaws will say "there are >> 142 revisions in this document" and display 142. But actually there are 210. >> Perhaps this is the problems others were having before, but for me, other >> than footnotes, Jaws was accurate or it just said "there are no revisions to >> display." >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rahul Bajaj >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for this update, Laura. While I haven't had to use track >>> changes extensively for a while, one follow-up: if it reports that >>> there are more changes than there actually are, it is not clear to me >>> how that creates a false sense of security that one has reviewed all >>> the revisions made. Wouldn't it instead be the case that one would be >>> left feeling that one has not reviewed all the revisions made, when in >>> reality you will have done that? >>> >>> Please correct me if I didn't understand your mail correctly. I just >>> want to acquire a clearer picture of the problem in order to be able >>> to get back to FS if this needs further work at this juncture. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul >>> >>>> On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on >>>> this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This >>>> is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false >>>> sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision >>>> when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you >>>> haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from >>>> only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple >>>> streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>> >> From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Dec 17 14:08:12 2018 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 14:08:12 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Guide Dogs at Work and Insurance Message-ID: First, I am not a member of the legal profession, but have written some guide dog legislation. In a lot of states it is stated in statute that the handler is liable for any damage caused by the dog. With such a requirement in law, a certificate saying that you will comply with the law seems . Not being a lawyer, I may be wrong, but I don't think your employer can single guide dog handlers out to certify that they will comply with the law, unless they require that all employees certify that they will comply with all of the laws too. Such a certificate, however, should not hold them harmless for any hazardous conditions, not exempt your guide dog from coverage in their blanket liability policy. superfluous David Hyde, Professional Development Coordinator Wisconsin Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired 1700 W. State Street Janesville WI  53546 608-758-6152 (office) 608-758-6169 (fax) 866-284-1107 ext. 34 (toll free) email david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us   From montascarlos267 at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 14:33:58 2018 From: montascarlos267 at gmail.com (carlos Montas) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:33:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accommodations for the LS AC Message-ID: <7143BFEA-71A1-4C20-98FB-C1769365DE6C@gmail.com> Good morning listers I am writing to ask about reasonable accommodations for the LSAT for a person who is blind. For those of you who have taken this exam, what accommodations have you used? What are some of the issues you have been through while requesting the accommodations? It is my understanding that the LSAT will be moving towards a computer based exam starting next year. I am in the process of requesting my accommodations to take the exam next year. Any thoughts on this topic are appreciated. Sent from my iPhone From r.g.munro at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 16:06:58 2018 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:06:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accommodations for the LS AC In-Reply-To: <7143BFEA-71A1-4C20-98FB-C1769365DE6C@gmail.com> References: <7143BFEA-71A1-4C20-98FB-C1769365DE6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Find out in advance what computer system they will e using. If it is windows, ask what screen reader they will be using and practice with that. If it’s Mac, practice with Voiceover. In any case, ask to take practice tests on the same computer you will use to take the test. Also, strongly consider taking classes to learn about the test and strategies. My score improved by twelve points after taking a class from Kaplan. Good luck. Onward! Robert Munro r.g.munro at gmail.com > On 17 Dec, 2018, at 9:33 AM, carlos Montas via BlindLaw wrote: > > Good morning listers I am writing to ask about reasonable accommodations for the LSAT for a person who is blind. For those of you who have taken this exam, what accommodations have you used? What are some of the issues you have been through while requesting the accommodations? It is my understanding that the LSAT will be moving towards a computer based exam starting next year. I am in the process of requesting my accommodations to take the exam next year. > Any thoughts on this topic are appreciated. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From tim at timeldermusic.com Tue Dec 18 01:05:41 2018 From: tim at timeldermusic.com (tim at timeldermusic.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:05:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 02:24:57 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 21:24:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> Message-ID: <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, wrote: > > Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > > From steve.jacobson at visi.com Tue Dec 18 03:14:15 2018 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 21:14:15 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be attached as well. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM To: tim at timeldermusic.com Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, wrote: > > Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser ved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 07:00:27 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 07:00:27 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the product of that exercise. Best, Rahul

Virus-free. www.avg.com
On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, is > anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was stated > earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then one can > definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be described to JAWS > and a document exhibiting the problem should be attached as well. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM > To: tim at timeldermusic.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the > newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred > or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a > brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 > years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively > could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed > and be on equal footing with our peers. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, > wrote: >> >> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in > Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic > and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 > disappointment to his professional detriment. >> >> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce >> a > much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually > worse > than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all > knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you > have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more > that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this > isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into > one > draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving > multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to > accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, > Jaws > is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools > needed > in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% > 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 > 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 > 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser > ved=0 > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% > 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& > data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa > aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 > BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 10:55:22 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 05:55:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about security breaches and all. On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the > somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the > product of that exercise. > > Best, > Rahul > > On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, is >> anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was stated >> earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then one can >> definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be described to >> JAWS >> and a document exhibiting the problem should be attached as well. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce >>> a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >> ved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Tue Dec 18 11:07:22 2018 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:07:22 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: Years ago I had an issue that a lawfirm I had had a scanner that pumped out things I could not convert and read. I had better software at home and wanted to test it. So I got the secretary to photocopy and scan some pages from a judgment and I took that home and tested it. You could do something similar and ask your IT people to create a document with the amount of track changes on it that you are talking about which has no confidentiality issues attaching to it. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2018 8:55 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about security breaches and all. On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the > somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the > product of that exercise. > > Best, > Rahul > > On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >> attached as well. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >> ved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 11:23:15 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 06:23:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: Yes. I could. And then I could send emails and reminders and requests asking for follow-through and in the meantime face this obstacle every day. Or I could take the time to make one myself. I figured as a first line of defense it was worth asking this large network of blind lawyers to see if any of them in fact use NVDA and knows that it can or cannot handle this. if no one knows, then I'll definitely follow your suggestion! On 12/18/18, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: > Years ago I had an issue that a lawfirm I had had a scanner that pumped out > things I could not convert and read. I had better software at home and > wanted to test it. So I got the secretary to photocopy and scan some pages > from a judgment and I took that home and tested it. You could do something > similar and ask your IT people to create a document with the amount of track > changes on it that you are talking about which has no confidentiality issues > attaching to it. > > Dr Paul Harpur > BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia > (non-practicing) > Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt > Institute, SU, New York. > Senior Lecturer > > TC Beirne School of Law > The University of Queensland > Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > > T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page > CRICOS code: 00025B > > > > > Scientia ac Labore > > This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the > addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of > Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any > transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is > prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and > notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do > not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2018 8:55 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I > don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm > talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, > and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone > could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. > I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable > recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 > around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about > security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the >> somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the >> product of that exercise. >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>> attached as well. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >>> ved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 11:50:25 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 06:50:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: Apologies, Paul. My response was far too harsh toward you. Your suggestion is a good one. But there is a lot that must be left unsaid on a public list and I just meant to communicate that I, and I think most, come here for help when we feel we've exhausted all other resources. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and offer advice. LAURA Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 18, 2018, at 6:23 AM, Laura Wolk wrote: > > Yes. I could. And then I could send emails and reminders and requests > asking for follow-through and in the meantime face this obstacle every > day. Or I could take the time to make one myself. I figured as a > first line of defense it was worth asking this large network of blind > lawyers to see if any of them in fact use NVDA and knows that it can > or cannot handle this. if no one knows, then I'll definitely follow > your suggestion! > >> On 12/18/18, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >> Years ago I had an issue that a lawfirm I had had a scanner that pumped out >> things I could not convert and read. I had better software at home and >> wanted to test it. So I got the secretary to photocopy and scan some pages >> from a judgment and I took that home and tested it. You could do something >> similar and ask your IT people to create a document with the amount of track >> changes on it that you are talking about which has no confidentiality issues >> attaching to it. >> >> Dr Paul Harpur >> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia >> (non-practicing) >> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt >> Institute, SU, New York. >> Senior Lecturer >> >> TC Beirne School of Law >> The University of Queensland >> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >> >> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >> CRICOS code: 00025B >> >> >> >> >> Scientia ac Labore >> >> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do >> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2018 8:55 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I >> don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm >> talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, >> and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone >> could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. >> I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a >> professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable >> recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 >> around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about >> security breaches and all. >> >>> On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the >>> somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the >>> product of that exercise. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul >>> >>>> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>>> attached as well. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>> option. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>> traffic >>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>> >>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>> announce a >>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >>>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >>>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >>>> ved=0 >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >>>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >>>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Tue Dec 18 12:54:00 2018 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:54:00 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: I did not take it has harsh and seriously I feel your frustration. I am in academia and find track changes impossible with far fewer changes than you deal with. One thing the NFB could do is fund people to find the answer and have it included into NVDA. NVDA is open source last I spoke with them. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk [mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2018 9:50 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Paul Harpur Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Apologies, Paul. My response was far too harsh toward you. Your suggestion is a good one. But there is a lot that must be left unsaid on a public list and I just meant to communicate that I, and I think most, come here for help when we feel we've exhausted all other resources. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and offer advice. LAURA Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 18, 2018, at 6:23 AM, Laura Wolk wrote: > > Yes. I could. And then I could send emails and reminders and requests > asking for follow-through and in the meantime face this obstacle every > day. Or I could take the time to make one myself. I figured as a > first line of defense it was worth asking this large network of blind > lawyers to see if any of them in fact use NVDA and knows that it can > or cannot handle this. if no one knows, then I'll definitely follow > your suggestion! > >> On 12/18/18, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >> Years ago I had an issue that a lawfirm I had had a scanner that >> pumped out things I could not convert and read. I had better >> software at home and wanted to test it. So I got the secretary to >> photocopy and scan some pages from a judgment and I took that home >> and tested it. You could do something similar and ask your IT people >> to create a document with the amount of track changes on it that you >> are talking about which has no confidentiality issues attaching to it. >> >> Dr Paul Harpur >> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >> Australia >> (non-practicing) >> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton >> Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >> Senior Lecturer >> >> TC Beirne School of Law >> The University of Queensland >> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >> >> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >> code: 00025B >> >> >> >> >> Scientia ac Labore >> >> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please >> delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2018 8:55 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. >> But I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many >> edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work >> doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA >> at work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. >> I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a >> professional function in any aspect of society in this day without >> reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines >> from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny >> hang-up about security breaches and all. >> >>> On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and >>> the somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is >>> the product of that exercise. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul >>> >>>> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this >>>> was stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect >>>> correctly, then one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the >>>> problem should be described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the >>>> problem should be attached as well. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura >>>> Wolk via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more >>>> than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every >>>> round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 >>>> was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd >>>> be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to >>>> actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>> in >>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>> option. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>> traffic >>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>> >>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>> announce a >>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with >>>> the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnf >>>> bnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27 >>>> 629667453 >>>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C >>>> 636806968 >>>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D& >>>> amp;reser >>>> ved=0 >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnf >>>> bnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi >>>> .com& >>>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640 >>>> afb435aaa >>>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4Xt >>>> rSrT1d2%2 >>>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj10 >>>> 38%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gm >> ail.com >> From steve.jacobson at visi.com Tue Dec 18 16:01:28 2018 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:01:28 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> Laura, First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology today. I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do work as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in the National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get problems resolved when we are aware of them. If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is essential that it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize that they were VFO and are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific name still works for email and web site access. There isn't much that they will be able to do, though, without an example document. While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given that the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it impacts people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are counting revisions and then stopping when you reach the number of revisions that JAWS provided, so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it is close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning soon. I am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including Microsoft Office itself and all software companies. As a person who has been programming and working in the Information Technology field for forty years, I hate that this is the case, but my dislike of the situation is not going to change anything. The result is that companies like Vispero are forced to prioritize the bugs they correct and knowing the impact on you is part of that process. If this isn't an issue that is bothering a lot of people, it would make sense to try to find out why others are not bothered, and how others are dealing with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in Microsoft Word that can incorrectly report the color of the current text in Word as Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that bothers most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume that NVDA is handling this correctly without trying the same document. . . There is a possibility that the problem is with a value returned by Microsoft, for example, and that could affect both screen readers. Even then, there is so much constant change in Microsoft Word that it could even be the case that it has already been addressed in a version of Word that is not commonly in use yet. If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it is essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that shows this error so others can investigate it and help bring the problem to the attention of the correct people. It also helps if those using JAWS bring this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying customers, but they will need an example to have any chance of resolving the issue. Also, sharing how others work around this problem is a realistic short term solution. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about security breaches and all. On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the > somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the > product of that exercise. > > Best, > Rahul

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> > On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >> attached as well. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >> ved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 > From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Tue Dec 18 16:11:30 2018 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:11:30 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] , Accommodations for the LS AC Message-ID: Hi Carlos, Congratulations in taking this first step towards becoming a lawyer. When I wrote the LSAT it was on a windows machine using JAWS. I was allowed/required to bring in my own computer, and the LSAT was provided on an encrypted USB key. The Format of the test was HTML. I had to request copies of the exam in the same format directly from LSAC and they would only send me two at a time, and in the end they only provided me with a total of 5 copies to study from. I found studying from old tests was the best way to study, but nothing beats the practice of having a test in the same format to do a full run practice. I used bookmarks a lot, especially on the reading comprehension and games. Knowing how to jump around quickly will be your best friend. To get your head around the kinds of questions you can get copies of old tests, but I had to use paper versions and scan them in, and then clean up the formatting, which ruined their value for doing a practice run. Save the versions you can get from LSAC till you understand the test fairly well, and use those versions to conduct practice runs. I also remember downloading from their websit directly one practice where feedback was provided for each answer, you could take the test online, and check your answers. The feedback was very important for understanding why the correct answer was the "best" answer. I didn't take any official prep courses and I got 172 on the exam. Many people find the prep courses beneficial, but I'd say just reading as many old tests as you can is your best strategy. I probably read about 30 exams in total, although I was only really able to do a full on practice run on the 5 I received from LSAC. I had a scribe to fill in the bubble sheet but others tell me they were able to record the answers on the computer. Whatever makes you more comfortable. I did do the written portion on a computer. - make sure the place you are writing the exam has a printer. LSAC may make you responsible for this, and if the place you are writing does not have a printer, you may have to bring your own. Best of luck, Ben Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:06:58 -0500 From: Robert Munro To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accommodations for the LS AC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Find out in advance what computer system they will e using. If it is windows, ask what screen reader they will be using and practice with that. If it?s Mac, practice with Voiceover. In any case, ask to take practice tests on the same computer you will use to take the test. Also, strongly consider taking classes to learn about the test and strategies. My score improved by twelve points after taking a class from Kaplan. Good luck. Onward! Robert Munro r.g.munro at gmail.com > On 17 Dec, 2018, at 9:33 AM, carlos Montas via BlindLaw wrote: > > Good morning listers I am writing to ask about reasonable accommodations for the LSAT for a person who is blind. For those of you who have taken this exam, what accommodations have you used? What are some of the issues you have been through while requesting the accommodations? It is my understanding that the LSAT will be moving towards a computer based exam starting next year. I am in the process of requesting my accommodations to take the exam next year. > Any thoughts on this topic are appreciated. > > Sent from my iPhone From blindstein at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 18:24:47 2018 From: blindstein at gmail.com (Justin Harford) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:24:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> Message-ID: Good morning, Sorry to hear about the frustration with JAWS and Microsoft Word. It should just work at this point, but it seems like updates are the enemy of functionality. For what it's worth I am not a lawyer but I have used NVDA and Microsoft Word with track changes at my job. It's a pretty underwhelming experience. If the information that I'm getting from the screenreader is intelligible, the lag makes it clunky and difficult to use. Track changes are a big deal in my workplace and what I usually do is accept all changes, and then review the document. I never have any trouble telling what changes were made, since I know my writing style and I can tell when it's been altered. Regards Justin On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 8:02 AM Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw < blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > Laura, > > First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology > today. I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of > sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do > work as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in the > National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get problems > resolved when we are aware of them. > > If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is essential > that it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize that they were > VFO and are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific name still works for > email and web site access. There isn't much that they will be able to do, > though, without an example document. > > While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given that > the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it impacts > people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are counting revisions > and then stopping when you reach the number of revisions that JAWS > provided, so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact > on you. The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software > when it is close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not > returning soon. I am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including > Microsoft Office itself and all software companies. As a person who has > been programming and working in the Information Technology field for forty > years, I hate that this is the case, but my dislike of the situation is not > going to change anything. The result is that companies like Vispero are > forced to prioritize the bugs they correct and knowing the impact on you is > part of that process. If this isn't an issue that is bothering a lot of > people, it would make sense to try to find out why others are not bothered, > and how others are dealing with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a > bug in Microsoft Word that can incorrectly report the color of the current > text in Word as Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the > correct information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that > bothers most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must > use more than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. > > Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume that > NVDA is handling this correctly without trying the same document. . . > There is a possibility that the problem is with a value returned by > Microsoft, for example, and that could affect both screen readers. Even > then, there is so much constant change in Microsoft Word that it could even > be the case that it has already been addressed in a version of Word that is > not commonly in use yet. > > If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it is > essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that shows this > error so others can investigate it and help bring the problem to the > attention of the correct people. It also helps if those using JAWS bring > this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying customers, but they > will need an example to have any chance of resolving the issue. Also, > sharing how others work around this problem is a realistic short term > solution. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson < > steve.jacobson at visi.com> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I > don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as > I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home > PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone > could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate > it. I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable > recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 > around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about > security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > > Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the > > somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the > > product of that exercise. > > > > Best, > > Rahul

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> > > > On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > >> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, > >> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was > >> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then > >> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be > >> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be > >> attached as well. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > >> via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM > >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com > >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List > >> > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > >> > >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as > >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than > >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round > >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my > >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great > >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us > >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in > >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an > option. > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Laura Wolk > >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > >>> > >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of > >>> traffic > >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this > >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > >>> > >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will > >>> announce a > >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is > >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to > >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the > >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every > >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying > >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible > >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft > >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving > >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying > >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be > >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the > >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% > >> > 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 > >> > 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 > >> > 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser > >> ved=0 > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% > >> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com > & > >> > data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa > >> > aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 > >> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > BlindLaw: > > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/blindstein%40gmail.com > From amatney at loeb.com Tue Dec 18 18:43:30 2018 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 18:43:30 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DAD12@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I think I can get permission to install NVDA on my work machine. It was actually on here before but they had to re-image and it's gone now. I echo the frustrations expressed re track-changes. For smaller documents with one reviewer, Windows 7 and Office 2010 were OK; but I've gotten the "no revisions" message many, many times because of the size of the document. Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com  -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:55 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about security breaches and all. On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the > somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the > product of that exercise. > > Best, > Rahul > > On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, is >> anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was stated >> earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then one can >> definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be described to >> JAWS >> and a document exhibiting the problem should be attached as well. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce >>> a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >> ved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 20:05:46 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 15:05:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> Message-ID: Dear Steve, I really appreciate your response and all of the points it raises. Rest assured I had a very long talk with a Freedom Scientific representative about exactly what engendered my original post to this list. Whether he plans to pass that on, I have no idea. But I did it for the precise reasons you expressed, and I think that doing it in person is essential compared to over email so that they can tell how deeply problematic the situation is. That being said, I think that blind people have a responsibility to step up and help each other out, even if we aren't specifically relying on a buggy aspect of jaws. You are absolutely correct that companies must prioritize the bugs that impact the most users, but the sad fact is that, right now, this will likely mean that the bugs that matter most to those who are using their technology to access education or a profession will be farther down the list. It's also the sad fact that the more that these bugs exist, the fewer people will be able to actually **access** that same education and professional opportunities. So yes, I suspect that of all blind users of Jaws, there are not terribly many that use track changes. Of those, there are fewer still who heavily edit, or incorporate multiple streams of edits. And of those, how many use Braille displays? But we all understand that track changes are necessary to be gainfully employed in 2018, to be a member of a law review, to co-author a paper with a professor, etc, etc. We can look beyond ourselves and our own circumstances and throw our hat into the ring to say, this **is** important. This does need to be fixed, even if I only use this feature sporadically or I used to use it in school but don't right now, etc. etc. For instance, I had no idea about the bug with insert+F. I use that feature constantly, many times a day. I imagine most other lawyers who are peer reviewing or editing their own work do also. But even if I didn't, I understand the importance of needing to reliably access that information to produce work on par with a sighted peer, and I gladly would have called up and pointed it out and asked for change if I could replicate it. If we communicate with each other more, we can be a larger collective force, even if what we require differs according to our professional experiences. So, in that spirit, I would like to say that the three things that hinder my ability to be a productive lawyer, to do the same work in the same amount of time as my sighted peers without needing to self-edit my billables, yada yada, are the following 1. Track change issue rehashed ad nauseam here. 2. The fact that, although I have been reporting this since 2016, Jaws is still incredibly slow in footnotes, will not let you select multiple words of text without starting to unselect those same words again, and does not announce the number of the footnote you are in. (note: every single time I raise this issue, I'm told by the FS rep that they "don't use footnotes much," so they're "not terribly familiar with what you mean." Inexcusable. 3. The fact that the Braille display raises dots 7-8 for all footnoted text, making them even more difficult to read. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, Steve. Your points are all valid. I'm just calling on the community to examine whether we've ever been negatively impacted by FS's refusal to deal with this issue in a substantial way and, if so, to take five minutes to voice our discontent. Now, I have to end this, as my Jaws has crashed. Laura On 12/18/18, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, > > First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology today. > I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of > sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do work > as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in the National > Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get problems resolved > when we are aware of them. > > If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is essential that > it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize that they were VFO and > are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific name still works for email and > web site access. There isn't much that they will be able to do, though, > without an example document. > > While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given that > the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it impacts > people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are counting revisions > and then stopping when you reach the number of revisions that JAWS provided, > so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. > The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it is > close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning soon. I > am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including Microsoft Office > itself and all software companies. As a person who has been programming and > working in the Information Technology field for forty years, I hate that > this is the case, but my dislike of the situation is not going to change > anything. The result is that companies like Vispero are forced to > prioritize the bugs they correct and knowing the impact on you is part of > that process. If this isn't an issue that is bothering a lot of people, it > would make sense to try to find out why others are not bothered, and how > others are dealing with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in > Microsoft Word that can incorrectly report the color of the current text in > Word as Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct > information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that bothers > most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more > than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. > > Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume that NVDA > is handling this correctly without trying the same document. . . There is > a possibility that the problem is with a value returned by Microsoft, for > example, and that could affect both screen readers. Even then, there is so > much constant change in Microsoft Word that it could even be the case that > it has already been addressed in a version of Word that is not commonly in > use yet. > > If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it is > essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that shows this > error so others can investigate it and help bring the problem to the > attention of the correct people. It also helps if those using JAWS bring > this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying customers, but they > will need an example to have any chance of resolving the issue. Also, > sharing how others work around this problem is a realistic short term > solution. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I > don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm > talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, > and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone > could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. > I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable > recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 > around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about > security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the >> somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the >> product of that exercise. >> >> Best, >> Rahul

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>> >> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>> attached as well. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >>> ved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Tue Dec 18 20:29:20 2018 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 20:29:20 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> Message-ID: I am an academic and would love to be able to use track changes. Others do and I cannot. It is a serious barrier for me. Track changes are common and I was talking with a K12 student that uses them. it is not just professionals. The fact footnotes are not working - IE telling me number and highlighting and the like, means I spend more time than I need to and often get RA help, some of which I pay for out of my own pocket. I think a substantial number of JAWS users that are employed will use ither footnotes or endnotes at some point. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2018 6:06 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk ; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Dear Steve, I really appreciate your response and all of the points it raises. Rest assured I had a very long talk with a Freedom Scientific representative about exactly what engendered my original post to this list. Whether he plans to pass that on, I have no idea. But I did it for the precise reasons you expressed, and I think that doing it in person is essential compared to over email so that they can tell how deeply problematic the situation is. That being said, I think that blind people have a responsibility to step up and help each other out, even if we aren't specifically relying on a buggy aspect of jaws. You are absolutely correct that companies must prioritize the bugs that impact the most users, but the sad fact is that, right now, this will likely mean that the bugs that matter most to those who are using their technology to access education or a profession will be farther down the list. It's also the sad fact that the more that these bugs exist, the fewer people will be able to actually **access** that same education and professional opportunities. So yes, I suspect that of all blind users of Jaws, there are not terribly many that use track changes. Of those, there are fewer still who heavily edit, or incorporate multiple streams of edits. And of those, how many use Braille displays? But we all understand that track changes are necessary to be gainfully employed in 2018, to be a member of a law review, to co-author a paper with a professor, etc, etc. We can look beyond ourselves and our own circumstances and throw our hat into the ring to say, this **is** important. This does need to be fixed, even if I only use this feature sporadically or I used to use it in school but don't right now, etc. etc. For instance, I had no idea about the bug with insert+F. I use that feature constantly, many times a day. I imagine most other lawyers who are peer reviewing or editing their own work do also. But even if I didn't, I understand the importance of needing to reliably access that information to produce work on par with a sighted peer, and I gladly would have called up and pointed it out and asked for change if I could replicate it. If we communicate with each other more, we can be a larger collective force, even if what we require differs according to our professional experiences. So, in that spirit, I would like to say that the three things that hinder my ability to be a productive lawyer, to do the same work in the same amount of time as my sighted peers without needing to self-edit my billables, yada yada, are the following 1. Track change issue rehashed ad nauseam here. 2. The fact that, although I have been reporting this since 2016, Jaws is still incredibly slow in footnotes, will not let you select multiple words of text without starting to unselect those same words again, and does not announce the number of the footnote you are in. (note: every single time I raise this issue, I'm told by the FS rep that they "don't use footnotes much," so they're "not terribly familiar with what you mean." Inexcusable. 3. The fact that the Braille display raises dots 7-8 for all footnoted text, making them even more difficult to read. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, Steve. Your points are all valid. I'm just calling on the community to examine whether we've ever been negatively impacted by FS's refusal to deal with this issue in a substantial way and, if so, to take five minutes to voice our discontent. Now, I have to end this, as my Jaws has crashed. Laura On 12/18/18, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, > > First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology today. > I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of > sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I > do work as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in > the National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get > problems resolved when we are aware of them. > > If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is > essential that it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize > that they were VFO and are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific > name still works for email and web site access. There isn't much that > they will be able to do, though, without an example document. > > While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given > that the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it > impacts people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are > counting revisions and then stopping when you reach the number of > revisions that JAWS provided, so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. > The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it > is close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning > soon. I am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including > Microsoft Office itself and all software companies. As a person who > has been programming and working in the Information Technology field > for forty years, I hate that this is the case, but my dislike of the > situation is not going to change anything. The result is that > companies like Vispero are forced to prioritize the bugs they correct > and knowing the impact on you is part of that process. If this isn't > an issue that is bothering a lot of people, it would make sense to try > to find out why others are not bothered, and how others are dealing > with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in Microsoft Word > that can incorrectly report the color of the current text in Word as > Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct > information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that > bothers most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. > > Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume > that NVDA is handling this correctly without trying the same document. > . . There is a possibility that the problem is with a value returned > by Microsoft, for example, and that could affect both screen readers. > Even then, there is so much constant change in Microsoft Word that it > could even be the case that it has already been addressed in a version > of Word that is not commonly in use yet. > > If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it > is essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that > shows this error so others can investigate it and help bring the > problem to the attention of the correct people. It also helps if > those using JAWS bring this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as > paying customers, but they will need an example to have any chance of > resolving the issue. Also, sharing how others work around this > problem is a realistic short term solution. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But > I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many > edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work > doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at > work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. > I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without > reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines > from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny > hang-up about security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and >> the somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is >> the product of that exercise. >> >> Best, >> Rahul

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>> >> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this >>> was stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, >>> then one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should >>> be described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>> attached as well. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more >>> than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every >>> round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was >>> my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be >>> great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually >>> give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>> in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with >>> the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C276 >>> 29667453 >>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 >>> 36806968 >>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&a >>> mp;reser >>> ved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi. >>> com& >>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640a >>> fb435aaa >>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4Xtr >>> SrT1d2%2 >>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01% >>> 7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa >>> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFT >>> zJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038% >>> 2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f >>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201& >>> ;sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbn >> et.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C >> %7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa >> a%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel >> 96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbn >> et.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gma >> il.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9 >> e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np >> 89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From richard.welch.gs at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 21:11:05 2018 From: richard.welch.gs at gmail.com (Richard Welch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 21:11:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com>, Message-ID: Dear all, I have enjoyed this lively thread. I would point out that many people who are blind using jaws in education are at a disadvantage with these issues especially when faced with multiple revisions or edits from their faculty members trying to get them on the right track when it comes to papers and the like and Freedom scientific’s inability or unwillingness ultimately to provide a product that works the way they say it does Versus reality is problematic at best. A good example of the problems that have been consistent over the years has been that of spellchecking and incompatibility issues with this consistently working with the JAWS screen reader. I have been a little bit amused with the 2010 comments, in light of the reality we live in, and the desire of many professionals to collaborate. All my best, Richard Welch J.D. Candidate, mslaw.edu Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 3:07 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Dear Steve, I really appreciate your response and all of the points it raises. Rest assured I had a very long talk with a Freedom Scientific representative about exactly what engendered my original post to this list. Whether he plans to pass that on, I have no idea. But I did it for the precise reasons you expressed, and I think that doing it in person is essential compared to over email so that they can tell how deeply problematic the situation is. That being said, I think that blind people have a responsibility to step up and help each other out, even if we aren't specifically relying on a buggy aspect of jaws. You are absolutely correct that companies must prioritize the bugs that impact the most users, but the sad fact is that, right now, this will likely mean that the bugs that matter most to those who are using their technology to access education or a profession will be farther down the list. It's also the sad fact that the more that these bugs exist, the fewer people will be able to actually **access** that same education and professional opportunities. So yes, I suspect that of all blind users of Jaws, there are not terribly many that use track changes. Of those, there are fewer still who heavily edit, or incorporate multiple streams of edits. And of those, how many use Braille displays? But we all understand that track changes are necessary to be gainfully employed in 2018, to be a member of a law review, to co-author a paper with a professor, etc, etc. We can look beyond ourselves and our own circumstances and throw our hat into the ring to say, this **is** important. This does need to be fixed, even if I only use this feature sporadically or I used to use it in school but don't right now, etc. etc. For instance, I had no idea about the bug with insert+F. I use that feature constantly, many times a day. I imagine most other lawyers who are peer reviewing or editing their own work do also. But even if I didn't, I understand the importance of needing to reliably access that information to produce work on par with a sighted peer, and I gladly would have called up and pointed it out and asked for change if I could replicate it. If we communicate with each other more, we can be a larger collective force, even if what we require differs according to our professional experiences. So, in that spirit, I would like to say that the three things that hinder my ability to be a productive lawyer, to do the same work in the same amount of time as my sighted peers without needing to self-edit my billables, yada yada, are the following 1. Track change issue rehashed ad nauseam here. 2. The fact that, although I have been reporting this since 2016, Jaws is still incredibly slow in footnotes, will not let you select multiple words of text without starting to unselect those same words again, and does not announce the number of the footnote you are in. (note: every single time I raise this issue, I'm told by the FS rep that they "don't use footnotes much," so they're "not terribly familiar with what you mean." Inexcusable. 3. The fact that the Braille display raises dots 7-8 for all footnoted text, making them even more difficult to read. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, Steve. Your points are all valid. I'm just calling on the community to examine whether we've ever been negatively impacted by FS's refusal to deal with this issue in a substantial way and, if so, to take five minutes to voice our discontent. Now, I have to end this, as my Jaws has crashed. Laura On 12/18/18, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, > > First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology today. > I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of > sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do work > as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in the National > Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get problems resolved > when we are aware of them. > > If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is essential that > it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize that they were VFO and > are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific name still works for email and > web site access. There isn't much that they will be able to do, though, > without an example document. > > While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given that > the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it impacts > people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are counting revisions > and then stopping when you reach the number of revisions that JAWS provided, > so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. > The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it is > close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning soon. I > am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including Microsoft Office > itself and all software companies. As a person who has been programming and > working in the Information Technology field for forty years, I hate that > this is the case, but my dislike of the situation is not going to change > anything. The result is that companies like Vispero are forced to > prioritize the bugs they correct and knowing the impact on you is part of > that process. If this isn't an issue that is bothering a lot of people, it > would make sense to try to find out why others are not bothered, and how > others are dealing with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in > Microsoft Word that can incorrectly report the color of the current text in > Word as Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct > information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that bothers > most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more > than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. > > Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume that NVDA > is handling this correctly without trying the same document. . . There is > a possibility that the problem is with a value returned by Microsoft, for > example, and that could affect both screen readers. Even then, there is so > much constant change in Microsoft Word that it could even be the case that > it has already been addressed in a version of Word that is not commonly in > use yet. > > If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it is > essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that shows this > error so others can investigate it and help bring the problem to the > attention of the correct people. It also helps if those using JAWS bring > this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying customers, but they > will need an example to have any chance of resolving the issue. Also, > sharing how others work around this problem is a realistic short term > solution. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I > don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as I'm > talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, > and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone > could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. > I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without reliable > recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 > around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about > security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the >> somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the >> product of that exercise. >> >> Best, >> Rahul

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>> >> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>> attached as well. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >>> ved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gmail.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 22:56:33 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:56:33 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com> Message-ID: Laura You are absolutely right. Track changes is so important a feature and it cannot safely be used with JAWS. It is a critical part of commercial practice. Kind regards Ger On 12/18/18, Richard Welch via BlindLaw wrote: > Dear all, > > I have enjoyed this lively thread. I would point out that many people who > are blind using jaws in education are at a disadvantage with these issues > especially when faced with multiple revisions or edits from their faculty > members trying to get them on the right track when it comes to papers and > the like and Freedom scientific’s inability or unwillingness ultimately to > provide a product that works the way they say it does Versus reality is > problematic at best. A good example of the problems that have been > consistent over the years has been that of spellchecking and incompatibility > issues with this consistently working with the JAWS screen reader. I have > been a little bit amused with the 2010 comments, in light of the reality we > live in, and the desire of many professionals to collaborate. > > All my best, > > Richard Welch > J.D. Candidate, mslaw.edu > > Best, > > Richard Welch > ricwelch at gmail.com > 781-367-4964 > Please consider connecting on LinkedIn > linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b > > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw on behalf of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 3:07 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk; Steve Jacobson > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Dear Steve, > > I really appreciate your response and all of the points it raises. > Rest assured I had a very long talk with a Freedom Scientific > representative about exactly what engendered my original post to this > list. Whether he plans to pass that on, I have no idea. But I did it > for the precise reasons you expressed, and I think that doing it in > person is essential compared to over email so that they can tell how > deeply problematic the situation is. > > That being said, I think that blind people have a responsibility to > step up and help each other out, even if we aren't specifically > relying on a buggy aspect of jaws. You are absolutely correct that > companies must prioritize the bugs that impact the most users, but the > sad fact is that, right now, this will likely mean that the bugs that > matter > most to those who are using their technology to access education or a > profession will be farther down the list. It's also the sad fact that > the more that these bugs exist, the fewer people will be able to > actually **access** that same education and professional > opportunities. So yes, I suspect that of all blind users of Jaws, > there are not terribly many that use track changes. Of those, there > are fewer still who heavily edit, or incorporate multiple streams of > edits. And of those, how many use Braille displays? But we all > understand that track changes are necessary to be gainfully employed > in 2018, to be a member of a law review, to co-author a paper with a > professor, etc, etc. We can look beyond ourselves and our own > circumstances and throw our hat into the ring to say, this > **is** important. This does need to be fixed, even if I only use > this feature sporadically or I used to use it in school but don't > right now, etc. etc. > > For instance, I had no idea about the bug with insert+F. I use that > feature constantly, many times a day. I imagine most other lawyers > who are peer reviewing or editing their own work do also. But even if > I didn't, I understand the importance of needing to reliably access > that information to produce work on par with a sighted peer, and I > gladly would have called up and pointed it out and asked for change if > I could replicate it. If we communicate with each other more, we can > be a larger collective force, even if what we require differs > according to our professional experiences. > > So, in that spirit, I would like to say that the three things that > hinder my ability to be a productive lawyer, to do the same work in > the same amount of time as my sighted peers without needing to > self-edit my billables, yada yada, are the following > 1. Track change issue rehashed ad nauseam here. > 2. The fact that, although I have been reporting this since 2016, Jaws > is still incredibly slow in footnotes, will not let you select > multiple words of text without starting to unselect those same words > again, and does not announce the number of the footnote you are in. > (note: every single time I raise this issue, I'm told by the FS rep > that they "don't use footnotes much," so they're "not terribly > familiar with what you mean." Inexcusable. > 3. The fact that the Braille display raises dots 7-8 for all footnoted > text, making them even more difficult to read. > > Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, Steve. Your points are all > valid. I'm just calling on the community to examine whether we've > ever been negatively impacted by FS's refusal to deal with this issue > in a substantial way and, if so, to take five minutes to voice our > discontent. Now, I have to end this, as my Jaws has crashed. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura, >> >> First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology >> today. >> I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of >> sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do >> work >> as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in the >> National >> Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get problems >> resolved >> when we are aware of them. >> >> If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is essential >> that >> it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize that they were VFO >> and >> are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific name still works for email >> and >> web site access. There isn't much that they will be able to do, though, >> without an example document. >> >> While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given that >> the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it impacts >> people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are counting >> revisions >> and then stopping when you reach the number of revisions that JAWS >> provided, >> so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. >> The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it is >> close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning soon. I >> am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including Microsoft Office >> itself and all software companies. As a person who has been programming >> and >> working in the Information Technology field for forty years, I hate that >> this is the case, but my dislike of the situation is not going to change >> anything. The result is that companies like Vispero are forced to >> prioritize the bugs they correct and knowing the impact on you is part of >> that process. If this isn't an issue that is bothering a lot of people, >> it >> would make sense to try to find out why others are not bothered, and how >> others are dealing with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in >> Microsoft Word that can incorrectly report the color of the current text >> in >> Word as Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct >> information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that >> bothers >> most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more >> than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. >> >> Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume that >> NVDA >> is handling this correctly without trying the same document. . . There is >> a possibility that the problem is with a value returned by Microsoft, for >> example, and that could affect both screen readers. Even then, there is >> so >> much constant change in Microsoft Word that it could even be the case >> that >> it has already been addressed in a version of Word that is not commonly >> in >> use yet. >> >> If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it is >> essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that shows >> this >> error so others can investigate it and help bring the problem to the >> attention of the correct people. It also helps if those using JAWS bring >> this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying customers, but they >> will need an example to have any chance of resolving the issue. Also, >> sharing how others work around this problem is a realistic short term >> solution. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But I >> don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many edits as >> I'm >> talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work doc on my home PC, >> and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at work. So if anyone >> could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate >> it. >> I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a >> professional function in any aspect of society in this day without >> reliable >> recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines from 2005 >> around, what with the cost and firms having this funny hang-up about >> security breaches and all. >> >> On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and the >>> somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is the >>> product of that exercise. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul

>> style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
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>>> >>> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>>> attached as well. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>> option. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>> traffic >>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>> >>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>> announce a >>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453 >>>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968 >>>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&reser >>>> ved=0 >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org% >>>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com& >>>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4XtrSrT1d2%2 >>>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From tim at timeldermusic.com Wed Dec 19 00:01:27 2018 From: tim at timeldermusic.com (tim at timeldermusic.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:01:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my technology tools. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM To: tim at timeldermusic.com Cc: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, wrote: > > Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > > From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Wed Dec 19 00:17:42 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:17:42 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> Message-ID: <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. Best, Scott -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM To: 'Laura Wolk' Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my technology tools. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM To: tim at timeldermusic.com Cc: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, wrote: > > Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of > traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will > announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:12:42 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:12:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: Scott, I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome character-by-character analysis. For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this could accompany the NABL letter. Laura On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I > am > going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers to > VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also > take > this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM > To: 'Laura Wolk' > Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they > could > do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling > itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my > technology tools. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM > To: tim at timeldermusic.com > Cc: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the > newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred > or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a > brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 > years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively > could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed > and be on equal footing with our peers. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, > wrote: >> >> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in > Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >> traffic > and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 > disappointment to his professional detriment. >> >> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >> announce a > much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually > worse > than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all > knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you > have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more > that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this > isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into > one > draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving > multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to > accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, > Jaws > is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools > needed > in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:58:21 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:58:21 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: Hi Everyone, 1. First of all, let me say how glad I am that this issue is getting the much-needed attention that it deserves. Until a few months ago, Freedom Scientific simply refused to acknowledge that the sporadic functioning of the virtual viewer for accessing a list of revisions was an issue which they could address. It was only after some of us reached out to them that we were able to move past the point where JAWS would simply say that there were no revisions in a document when the number of revisions exceeded 100. So I am confident that we will be able to get all outstanding issues resolved if we are able to make good the claim that the inaccessibility of track changes impacts a critical mass of blind people. 2. I echo the challenges that Laura voiced in using footnotes - the general sluggishness of JAWS, coupled with the fact that it is very difficult to edit them or to ascertain their number. 3. One significant issue which I have been grappling with for the last 3-4 months is the inaccessibility of PDF documents with JAWS - when used with Adobe Reader, JAWS throws you back by many pages if you try going up a line and doesn't enable you to read a document in a para-wise fashion. All that you can realistically do, except for using the OCR feature or converting the document into Word, is to use the say-all command or navigate the document line-by-line, both of which are highly inefficient ways to read a document. I reached out to Vispero about this, and they attributed the problem to Adobe. I have been communicating with Adobe accessibility team for the last month, but they haven't really taken this issue seriously, as it appears that not many people have reported the issue. So I wholeheartedly agree with Laura when she says that we need to act collectively on these issues, if we want to be taken seriously. I am happy to help in whatever way I can, including by way of supplying a sample document with many revisions in it. Best, Rahul

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On 19/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I >> am >> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >> to >> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >> take >> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >> could >> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >> technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > From amatney at loeb.com Wed Dec 19 15:18:46 2018 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:18:46 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura, I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We can produce documents like this with our document management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com  -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. Scott, I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome character-by-character analysis. For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this could accompany the NABL letter. Laura On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I > am > going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers to > VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also > take > this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM > To: 'Laura Wolk' > Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they > could > do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling > itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my > technology tools. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM > To: tim at timeldermusic.com > Cc: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the > newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred > or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a > brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 > years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively > could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed > and be on equal footing with our peers. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, > wrote: >> >> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in > Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >> traffic > and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 > disappointment to his professional detriment. >> >> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >> announce a > much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually > worse > than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all > knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you > have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more > that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this > isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into > one > draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving > multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to > accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, > Jaws > is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools > needed > in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From blindguy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 15:40:59 2018 From: blindguy at gmail.com (Will) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:40:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Law Student Internship Opportunity Message-ID: 1L and 2L law students are encouraged to apply for an internship with the Disability Rights Office (DRO) of the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) in Washington, DC. While the intern opportunities are not paid, the FCC will work with the intern’s school to arrange academic credit for the intern’s service. The cohort of FCC interns also have their own activities outside of their assigned offices, which may include workshops hosted by the Federal Communications Bar Association and other related meetings, and some social activities such as baseball games. Specifically about the work of DRO: the DRO is an industrious office with much to offer to prospective intern candidates who are seeking hands-on experience with legal research and writing. We have numerous active rulemaking proceedings and disability-related outreach activities in order to fulfill the office’s mission to promote optimized disability access to modern communications. On an annual basis we try to tailor the work to accommodate the specific interests of the interns in providing particular research and writing projects. For the array of topics under the purview of the DRO, please visit www.fcc.gov/accessibility. If interested, please send an email with your cover letter, resume, writing sample, and unofficial transcript to Suzy Rosen Singleton, Chief, Disability Rights Office, at Suzanne.Singleton at fcc.gov. If you'd like to discuss this opportunity further, an appointment can be scheduled to meet via phone (202-510-9446) or in person. For more information about internships with the Commission in general, you can visit this link: https://www.fcc.gov/general/internships-consumer-and-governmental-affairs-bureau. From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 15:43:31 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:43:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with it > reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document > comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many > situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and our > software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to the > extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read > changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We > can produce documents like this with our document management software. When > JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, I > recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or if > you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law > Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I >> am >> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >> to >> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >> take >> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >> could >> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >> technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > From ttomasi at driowa.org Wed Dec 19 15:47:24 2018 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:47:24 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I am happy to assist with this in any way possible, and I do have an Office 365 subscription so could test it at home, but I would need test documents. Scott, please let me know if I can assist with the letter. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems > with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our > document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but > there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would > be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes > to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would > just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure > things out. We can produce documents like this with our document > management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and > double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, > or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los > Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind > Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >> best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From ttomasi at driowa.org Wed Dec 19 15:50:29 2018 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:50:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> Message-ID: Tim, What resources are you using to learn NVDA? Are there any good tutorials other than just using the software manual? Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 6:01 PM To: 'Laura Wolk' Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my technology tools. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM To: tim at timeldermusic.com Cc: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, wrote: > > Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of > traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. > > Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. > Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will > announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From jtfetter at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 15:59:31 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I would also be happy to assist with and/or sign the letter. I have run into the same problems both with footnotes and track changes. VFO, or whatever it is calling itself these days, has treated us as a captive audience for far too long. There are alternatives to Jaws, and VFO's deliberate indifference to the obvious defects described in this thread threatens our ability, and that of other blind professionals, to  succeed in a highly competitive job market. I'm assuming that any letter we collectively sign and draft would go straight to corporate? The front line tech support people know very little and care even less about these issues. In my experience, action is only inspired by going straight to the top. Thanks, and I look forward in assisting in our collective effort to bring these matters to the attention of decision-makers at VFO. On 12/19/2018 10:47 AM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > I am happy to assist with this in any way possible, and I do have an Office 365 subscription so could test it at home, but I would need test documents. Scott, please let me know if I can assist with the letter. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:44 AM > To: Angela Matney > Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List ; tim at timeldermusic.com > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > OK, this is great. > > Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. > As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. > > Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." > > Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). > > Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. > > Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. > > Laura > > > > On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >> Laura, >> >> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >> with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our >> document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but >> there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would >> be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. >> >> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >> to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would >> just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure >> things out. We can produce documents like this with our document >> management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and >> double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. >> >> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >> or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >> >> Angie >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> Admitted only in Virginia >> >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los >> Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >> Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >> >> Scott, >> >> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >> character-by-character analysis. >> >> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >> >> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >> could accompany the NABL letter. >> >> Laura >> >> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >>> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >>> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >>> best of this holiday season. >>> >>> Best, >>> Scott >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >>> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >>> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>> com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From amatney at loeb.com Wed Dec 19 16:16:02 2018 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:16:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <5D9273DD-4AC1-4D0D-B318-F122145955E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB74E@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Rahul, can you share how you set the custom keystrokes you mention in the message below? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 3:03 AM To: Laura Wolk Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Okay, right. This problem often arises even when you try to go through revisions by using the quick navigation keys - JAWS will say that there are no more revisions in the document when in actuality there are. The only way that I have found of ensuring that no revisions get left behind is setting custom keystrokes for moving to the previous and next revision. One potential solution could be to make sure that you get to the end of the document by pressing control+end to ensure that JAWS has the entire document in its field of vision when preparing the list of revisions. If the problem still persists, this must be because, even though they have expanded the list of revisions JAWS can display in the virtual viewer, it still hasn't been sufficiently expanded to capture all revisions. I will point this out to FS. I would be grateful if you could do so, too. Best, Rahul

Virus-free. www.avg.com
On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk wrote: > Sorry for any confusion. What I'm saying is that jaws will say "there are > 142 revisions in this document" and display 142. But actually there are 210. > Perhaps this is the problems others were having before, but for me, other > than footnotes, Jaws was accurate or it just said "there are no revisions to > display." > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rahul Bajaj >> wrote: >> >> Thanks for this update, Laura. While I haven't had to use track >> changes extensively for a while, one follow-up: if it reports that >> there are more changes than there actually are, it is not clear to me >> how that creates a false sense of security that one has reviewed all >> the revisions made. Wouldn't it instead be the case that one would be >> left feeling that one has not reviewed all the revisions made, when in >> reality you will have done that? >> >> Please correct me if I didn't understand your mail correctly. I just >> want to acquire a clearer picture of the problem in order to be able >> to get back to FS if this needs further work at this juncture. >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >>> On 15/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on >>> this $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This >>> is actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false >>> sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision >>> when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you >>> haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft from >>> only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple >>> streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>> > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. From amatney at loeb.com Wed Dec 19 16:20:21 2018 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:20:21 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB77F@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura, I'm happy to send an explanation of what I do to help navigate this issue. It's not ideal, and sometimes it results in multiple versions of a document being open at the same time, but it is workable, and it's the best system I've used so far. I'll try to get to that later this evening. Thanks, Angie -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; slabarre at labarrelaw.com; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with it > reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document > comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many > situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and our > software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to the > extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read > changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We > can produce documents like this with our document management software. When > JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, I > recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or if > you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law > Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I >> am >> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >> to >> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >> take >> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >> could >> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >> technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. From amatney at loeb.com Wed Dec 19 18:35:59 2018 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:35:59 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. I've been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our client and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for a few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to restart. I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word to produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have trouble with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my assistant, who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of track-changes. (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce the baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than one language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this is not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. Angie -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; slabarre at labarrelaw.com; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with it > reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document > comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many > situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and our > software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to the > extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read > changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We > can produce documents like this with our document management software. When > JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, I > recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or if > you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law > Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and I >> am >> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >> to >> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >> take >> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >> could >> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >> technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >> hundred >> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all colectively >> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >> succeed >> and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >> worse >> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we all >> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >> you >> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >> more >> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this >> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >> one >> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >> Jaws >> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >> needed >> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:16:07 2018 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:16:07 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Hi, I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually discernible and those automatically listed. Angie, In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you are: 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new document. This results in all the changes being automatically accepted. 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. Please see for more information: https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a Best, Rahul

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On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. I've > been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our client > and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and > German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with > three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I > used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for a > few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to > restart. > > I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word to > produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have trouble > with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even > though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my assistant, > who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of track-changes. > (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce the > baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) > > While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than one > language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this is > not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for > track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. > > Angie > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM > To: Angela Matney > Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; slabarre at labarrelaw.com; > tim at timeldermusic.com > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > OK, this is great. > > Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you > are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. > As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of > obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and > inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other > method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. > > Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very > busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many > trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could > generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what > we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop > on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all > our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for > the rest of you." > > Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know > how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I > have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways > of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear > them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as > an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must > get our work done). > > Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I > can be in touch with FS. > > Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB > provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. > > Laura > > > > On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >> Laura, >> >> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with >> it >> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many >> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and >> our >> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >> >> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to >> the >> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read >> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We >> can produce documents like this with our document management software. >> When >> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, >> I >> recognize it as an insertion. >> >> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or >> if >> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >> >> Angie >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> Admitted only in Virginia >> >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law >> Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >> >> Scott, >> >> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >> character-by-character analysis. >> >> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >> >> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >> could accompany the NABL letter. >> >> Laura >> >> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and >>> I >>> am >>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >>> to >>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >>> take >>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >>> >>> Best, >>> Scott >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >>> could >>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >>> technology tools. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>> hundred >>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>> colectively >>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>> succeed >>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >>> worse >>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we >>> all >>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >>> you >>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >>> more >>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>> this >>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >>> one >>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >>> Jaws >>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >>> needed >>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>> com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > From angie.matney at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:33:55 2018 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:33:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample document. Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all changes" and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, l, and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. Angie Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi, > > I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more > revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual > viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as > per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual > calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to > be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually > discernible and those automatically listed. > > Angie, > > In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, > in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab > when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> > review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from > which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ > comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing > tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set > them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. > > Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you are: > > 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new > document. This results in all the changes being automatically > accepted. > 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up > to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. > Please see for more information: > https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a > > Best, > Rahul > >> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. I've >> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our client >> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and >> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with >> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I >> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for a >> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >> restart. >> >> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word to >> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have trouble >> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even >> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my assistant, >> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of track-changes. >> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce the >> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >> >> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than one >> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this is >> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >> >> Angie >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >> To: Angela Matney >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >> tim at timeldermusic.com >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >> >> OK, this is great. >> >> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >> >> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >> the rest of you." >> >> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >> get our work done). >> >> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >> can be in touch with FS. >> >> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >> >> Laura >> >> >> >>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>> Laura, >>> >>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with >>> it >>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many >>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and >>> our >>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>> >>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to >>> the >>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read >>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We >>> can produce documents like this with our document management software. >>> When >>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example, >>> I >>> recognize it as an insertion. >>> >>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or >>> if >>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> Admitted only in Virginia >>> >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law >>> Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>> >>> Scott, >>> >>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>> character-by-character analysis. >>> >>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>> >>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and >>>> I >>>> am >>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers >>>> to >>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also >>>> take >>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >>>> could >>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my >>>> technology tools. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the >>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>> hundred >>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a >>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>> colectively >>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>> succeed >>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>> option. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>> traffic >>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000 >>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>> >>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>> announce a >>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >>>> worse >>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we >>>> all >>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that >>>> you >>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >>>> more >>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>> this >>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into >>>> one >>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, >>>> Jaws >>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >>>> needed >>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From shannonldillon at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 20:49:30 2018 From: shannonldillon at gmail.com (Shannon Dillon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:49:30 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on this together with VFO. Shannon On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample document. > > Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all > changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either > incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all changes" > and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, l, > and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. > > Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. > > Angie > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >> discernible and those automatically listed. >> >> Angie, >> >> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >> >> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you are: >> >> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >> accepted. >> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >> Please see for more information: >> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. >>> I've >>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>> client >>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and >>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with >>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I >>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for >>> a >>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>> restart. >>> >>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word >>> to >>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>> trouble >>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even >>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>> assistant, >>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>> track-changes. >>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce >>> the >>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>> >>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than >>> one >>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this >>> is >>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>> To: Angela Matney >>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>> >>> OK, this is great. >>> >>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>> >>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>> the rest of you." >>> >>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>> get our work done). >>> >>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>> can be in touch with FS. >>> >>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>> Laura, >>>> >>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with >>>> it >>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>> many >>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and >>>> our >>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>> >>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to >>>> the >>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read >>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. >>>> We >>>> can produce documents like this with our document management software. >>>> When >>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>> example, >>>> I >>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>> >>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>> or >>>> if >>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>> >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>> via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law >>>> Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>> >>>> Scott, >>>> >>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>> >>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>> >>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>> and >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>> Lawyers >>>>> to >>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>> also >>>>> take >>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >>>>> could >>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>> my >>>>> technology tools. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>> the >>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>> hundred >>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing >>>>> a >>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>> colectively >>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>> succeed >>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>> option. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>> traffic >>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>> $1,000 >>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>> announce a >>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >>>>> worse >>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we >>>>> all >>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>> that >>>>> you >>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >>>>> more >>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>> this >>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>> into >>>>> one >>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>> receiving >>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>> forewarned, >>>>> Jaws >>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >>>>> needed >>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail.com > -- SHANNON L. DILLON Secretary and Legislative Coordinator National Federation of the Blind of California The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends. From sbg at sbgaal.com Wed Dec 19 21:21:05 2018 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:21:05 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008501d497e0$c0a31a10$41e94e30$@sbgaal.com> Hello everyone, Let me start by saying I haven't used track changes and I totally agree that Jaws has to make changes so this feature is available to us. However, would asking the person who edits the document last to put a symbol like * or something by their changes with their initials be a good temporary work around? Again maybe I do not understand hthe process you all are talking about and maybe this would not work, but it is just a suggestion; it seems like a reasonable accommodation to me. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office:  (806) 763-3999 Mobile:  (806) 781-9296 Fax:  (806) 749-3752 E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 2:50 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Shannon Dillon Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on this together with VFO. Shannon On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample document. > > Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all > changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either > incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all changes" > and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, l, > and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. > > Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. > > Angie > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >> discernible and those automatically listed. >> >> Angie, >> >> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >> >> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you are: >> >> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >> accepted. >> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >> Please see for more information: >> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f -4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. >>> I've >>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>> client >>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and >>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with >>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I >>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for >>> a >>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>> restart. >>> >>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word >>> to >>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>> trouble >>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even >>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>> assistant, >>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>> track-changes. >>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce >>> the >>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>> >>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than >>> one >>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this >>> is >>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>> To: Angela Matney >>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>> >>> OK, this is great. >>> >>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>> >>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>> the rest of you." >>> >>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>> get our work done). >>> >>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>> can be in touch with FS. >>> >>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>> Laura, >>>> >>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with >>>> it >>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>> many >>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and >>>> our >>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>> >>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to >>>> the >>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read >>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. >>>> We >>>> can produce documents like this with our document management software. >>>> When >>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>> example, >>>> I >>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>> >>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>> or >>>> if >>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>> >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>> via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law >>>> Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>> >>>> Scott, >>>> >>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>> >>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>> >>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>> and >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>> Lawyers >>>>> to >>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>> also >>>>> take >>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they >>>>> could >>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling >>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>> my >>>>> technology tools. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>> the >>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>> hundred >>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing >>>>> a >>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6 >>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>> colectively >>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>> succeed >>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>> option. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>> traffic >>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>> $1,000 >>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>> announce a >>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually >>>>> worse >>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we >>>>> all >>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>> that >>>>> you >>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >>>>> more >>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>> this >>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>> into >>>>> one >>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>> receiving >>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to >>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>> forewarned, >>>>> Jaws >>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >>>>> needed >>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.c om > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail .com > -- SHANNON L. DILLON Secretary and Legislative Coordinator National Federation of the Blind of California The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 21:22:18 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:22:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the same. To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can see what Jaws tells us. If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, windows, and office you use. Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on Saturday! On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: > Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for > initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track > changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for > sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on > this together with VFO. > Shannon > > > On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >> document. >> >> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all >> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >> changes" >> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, >> l, >> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >> >> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >> >> Angie >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>> >>> Angie, >>> >>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>> >>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>> are: >>> >>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>> accepted. >>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>> Please see for more information: >>> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul >>> >>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. >>>> I've >>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>> client >>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and >>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with >>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. >>>> I >>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>> for >>>> a >>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>>> restart. >>>> >>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>> Word >>>> to >>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>> trouble >>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>> even >>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>> assistant, >>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>> track-changes. >>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>> produce >>>> the >>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>> >>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than >>>> one >>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>> this >>>> is >>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>> To: Angela Matney >>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>> >>>> OK, this is great. >>>> >>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>> >>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>>> the rest of you." >>>> >>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>>> get our work done). >>>> >>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>> >>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>> Laura, >>>>> >>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and >>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>> with >>>>> it >>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>>> many >>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and >>>>> our >>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>> >>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >>>>> to >>>>> the >>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>> read >>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. >>>>> We >>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management software. >>>>> When >>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>> example, >>>>> I >>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>> >>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>>> or >>>>> if >>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Angie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>> >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>> Law >>>>> Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>> >>>>> Scott, >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also >>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows >>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can >>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>> >>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>>> >>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>>> and >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>> to >>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>> also >>>>>> take >>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>>> via >>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>> they >>>>>> could >>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>> calling >>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>>> my >>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>>> the >>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>>> hundred >>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing >>>>>> a >>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for >>>>>> 6 >>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>> colectively >>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>>> succeed >>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>> option. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>> traffic >>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>> announce a >>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>> actually >>>>>> worse >>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we >>>>>> all >>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>> that >>>>>> you >>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred >>>>>> more >>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>>> this >>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>>> into >>>>>> one >>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>> receiving >>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>>>> to >>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>> Jaws >>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools >>>>>> needed >>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > SHANNON L. DILLON > Secretary and Legislative Coordinator > National Federation of the Blind > of California > The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends. > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From shannonldillon at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 21:55:53 2018 From: shannonldillon at gmail.com (Shannon Dillon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:55:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Shannon, Using track changes is more sophisticated than putting a star and initials by the change. Usually, when JAWS is working, you can see in one font what was inserted, what was deleted, and multiple people make changes to the same document. Also, the changes are indicated by font as you make them. If you insert something, it shows up in a different font as you are typing it and if you delete something, the font changes as you delete it. So you don't have to go back and highlight something and use strikeout to show it is deleted, or highlight it and indicate with bold or italics you added it. Track changes does it all in one step. And if you agree with the change you can click an accept button. Or you can reject it. If you had to manually select your change and change the font for hundreds of changes in one document made by a bunch of people, it would just take so much time to go back and manually get rid of all the changes after you decide whether you agree or disagree with them. Hope this very simple explanation makes sense. On 12/19/18, Laura Wolk wrote: > Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document > includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make > sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, > i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a > word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note > where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are > reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the > same. > > To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in > footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document > with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells > you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me > off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many > are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can > see what Jaws tells us. > > If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an > email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, > windows, and office you use. > > Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on > Saturday! > > On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: >> Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for >> initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track >> changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for >> sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on >> this together with VFO. >> Shannon >> >> >> On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >>> document. >>> >>> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all >>> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >>> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >>> changes" >>> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, >>> l, >>> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >>> >>> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>>> >>>> Angie, >>>> >>>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >>>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>>> >>>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>>> are: >>>> >>>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>>> accepted. >>>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>>> Please see for more information: >>>> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this >>>>> afternoon. >>>>> I've >>>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>>> client >>>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English >>>>> and >>>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word >>>>> with >>>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. >>>>> I >>>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>>> for >>>>> a >>>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>>>> restart. >>>>> >>>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>>> Word >>>>> to >>>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>>> trouble >>>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>>> even >>>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>>> assistant, >>>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>>> track-changes. >>>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>>> produce >>>>> the >>>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>>> >>>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more >>>>> than >>>>> one >>>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>>> this >>>>> is >>>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>>> >>>>> Angie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>>> To: Angela Matney >>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>> >>>>> OK, this is great. >>>>> >>>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>>> >>>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>>>> the rest of you." >>>>> >>>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>>>> get our work done). >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>>> Laura, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original >>>>>> and >>>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>>> with >>>>>> it >>>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>>>> many >>>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, >>>>>> and >>>>>> our >>>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >>>>>> to >>>>>> the >>>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>>> read >>>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things >>>>>> out. >>>>>> We >>>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management >>>>>> software. >>>>>> When >>>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>>> example, >>>>>> I >>>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>>>> or >>>>>> if >>>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>>> >>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>>>> via >>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>>> Law >>>>>> Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Scott, >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people >>>>>> also >>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, >>>>>> Windows >>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. >>>>>> Can >>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>>>> >>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday >>>>>>> season. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>>>> via >>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>>> calling >>>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of >>>>>>> editing >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for >>>>>>> 6 >>>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>>> colectively >>>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>>>> succeed >>>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>>> announce a >>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> worse >>>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a >>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>>> receiving >>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary >>>>>>> tools >>>>>>> needed >>>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> SHANNON L. DILLON >> Secretary and Legislative Coordinator >> National Federation of the Blind >> of California >> The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and >> friends. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > -- SHANNON L. DILLON Secretary and Legislative Coordinator National Federation of the Blind of California The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends. From sbg at sbgaal.com Wed Dec 19 22:09:57 2018 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:09:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b801d497e7$943a5f40$bcaf1dc0$@sbgaal.com> It does Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office:  (806) 763-3999 Mobile:  (806) 781-9296 Fax:  (806) 749-3752 E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:56 PM To: Laura Wolk Cc: Shannon Dillon; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Hi Shannon, Using track changes is more sophisticated than putting a star and initials by the change. Usually, when JAWS is working, you can see in one font what was inserted, what was deleted, and multiple people make changes to the same document. Also, the changes are indicated by font as you make them. If you insert something, it shows up in a different font as you are typing it and if you delete something, the font changes as you delete it. So you don't have to go back and highlight something and use strikeout to show it is deleted, or highlight it and indicate with bold or italics you added it. Track changes does it all in one step. And if you agree with the change you can click an accept button. Or you can reject it. If you had to manually select your change and change the font for hundreds of changes in one document made by a bunch of people, it would just take so much time to go back and manually get rid of all the changes after you decide whether you agree or disagree with them. Hope this very simple explanation makes sense. On 12/19/18, Laura Wolk wrote: > Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document > includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make > sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, > i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a > word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note > where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are > reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the > same. > > To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in > footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document > with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells > you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me > off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many > are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can > see what Jaws tells us. > > If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an > email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, > windows, and office you use. > > Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on > Saturday! > > On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: >> Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for >> initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track >> changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for >> sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on >> this together with VFO. >> Shannon >> >> >> On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >>> document. >>> >>> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all >>> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >>> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >>> changes" >>> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, >>> l, >>> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >>> >>> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>>> >>>> Angie, >>>> >>>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >>>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>>> >>>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>>> are: >>>> >>>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>>> accepted. >>>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>>> Please see for more information: >>>> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f -4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this >>>>> afternoon. >>>>> I've >>>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>>> client >>>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English >>>>> and >>>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word >>>>> with >>>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. >>>>> I >>>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>>> for >>>>> a >>>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>>>> restart. >>>>> >>>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>>> Word >>>>> to >>>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>>> trouble >>>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>>> even >>>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>>> assistant, >>>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>>> track-changes. >>>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>>> produce >>>>> the >>>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>>> >>>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more >>>>> than >>>>> one >>>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>>> this >>>>> is >>>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>>> >>>>> Angie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>>> To: Angela Matney >>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>> >>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>> >>>>> OK, this is great. >>>>> >>>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>>> >>>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>>>> the rest of you." >>>>> >>>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>>>> get our work done). >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>>> Laura, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original >>>>>> and >>>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>>> with >>>>>> it >>>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>>>> many >>>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, >>>>>> and >>>>>> our >>>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >>>>>> to >>>>>> the >>>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>>> read >>>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things >>>>>> out. >>>>>> We >>>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management >>>>>> software. >>>>>> When >>>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>>> example, >>>>>> I >>>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>>>> or >>>>>> if >>>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>>> >>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>>>> via >>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>>> Law >>>>>> Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Scott, >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people >>>>>> also >>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, >>>>>> Windows >>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. >>>>>> Can >>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>>>> >>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday >>>>>>> season. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>>>> via >>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>>> calling >>>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of >>>>>>> editing >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for >>>>>>> 6 >>>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>>> colectively >>>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>>>> succeed >>>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>>> announce a >>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> worse >>>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a >>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>>> receiving >>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary >>>>>>> tools >>>>>>> needed >>>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.c om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail .com >>> >> >> >> -- >> SHANNON L. DILLON >> Secretary and Legislative Coordinator >> National Federation of the Blind >> of California >> The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and >> friends. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > -- SHANNON L. DILLON Secretary and Legislative Coordinator National Federation of the Blind of California The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From angies143 at verizon.net Thu Dec 20 02:39:49 2018 From: angies143 at verizon.net (Angelina Stabile) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:39:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] needles program with jaws Message-ID: <06b301d4980d$473528d0$d59f7a70$@verizon.net> Hello, do any of you use needles with jaws in your law firm? I have a potential job in a law firm that uses the needles software. Thank You Angelina Stabile From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Dec 20 14:32:33 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:32:33 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [DRBA] Disability Rights California is hiring Experienced Attorneys! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018901d49870$d8c4eb10$8a4ec130$@labarrelaw.com> FYI From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Elissa Gershon Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:42 PM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Disability Rights California is hiring Experienced Attorneys! Disability Rights California seeks six (6) experienced attorneys focused on litigation and systemic change. These new positions may be located in various offices—Sacramento, Oakland, Los Angeles, or San Diego. Attorneys will specialize in one Practice Group to: enforce the legal rights of incarcerated individuals with disabilities and advocate for access to community-based mental health services (Mental Health Practice Group); lead DRC’s Olmstead litigation and policy work and represent individuals seeking public benefits to live at home (Healthcare/Home and Community Based Services Practice Group); advocate for access to regional center and other services so that children and adults can live, work, and play in their communities ( Intellectual/Developmental Disabilities Practice Group). Each Practice Group seeks a Senior Attorney and a Staff Attorney II. Application Deadline: Open until filled. Apply by January 14, 2019 for first round of interviews. See https://jobs.lever.co/disabilityrightsca for more information or feel free to reach out to me directly. Thanks and happy holidays! Elissa Elissa Gershon, Litigation Counsel Disability Rights California California's protection and advocacy system 1330 Broadway, Ste. 500 Oakland, CA 94612-2509 D: 510-267-1223 F: 510-267-1201 TTY: 800-719-5798 Elissa.gershon at disabilityrightsca.org Intake Line: (800) 776-5746 Website: www.disabilityrightsca.org | www.disabilityrightsca.org/espanol The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) listed above. Any review, use, disclosure, distribution or copying of this transmittal is prohibited except by or on behalf of the intended recipient. If you have received this transmittal in error, please notify me immediately by reply email and destroy all copies of the transmittal. Any inadvertent disclosure does not waive the attorney-client privilege. The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) listed above. Any review, use, disclosure, distribution or copying of this transmittal is prohibited except by or on behalf of the intended recipient. If you have received this transmittal in error, please notify me immediately by reply email and destroy all copies of the transmittal. Any inadvertent disclosure does not waive the attorney-client privilege. Thank you REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. 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Name: Senior Attorney AND Staff Attorney 2 I-DD Flyer 12.14.2018.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 75294 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Senior Attorney AND Staff Attorney 2 Healthcare-HCBS Flyer 12.14.2018.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 75183 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Senior Attorney AND Staff Attorney 2 Mental Health Flyer 12.14.2018.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 75379 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Dec 21 15:49:33 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:49:33 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010b01d49944$c4e62530$4eb26f90$@labarrelaw.com> Happy holidays everyone! From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 6:40 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans, LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities. We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated USAO Northern District of Texas Attorney Texas December 20, 2018 Criminal Division (CRM) Transnational Organized Cybercrime Liaison Prosecutor December 20, 2018 Executive Office for United States Attorneys (EOUSA) ATTORNEY ADVISOR District of Columbia December 20, 2018 USAO Western District of Michigan Assistant U.S. Attorney Michigan December 19, 2018 USAO District of North Dakota Assistant US Attorney, Criminal North Dakota December 18, 2018 USAO District of Massachusetts Assistant United States Attorney Massachusetts December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year and Summer, Criminal Division California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year and Summer, Tax Division California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year and Summer, Civil Division California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Criminal and National Security California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Civil Division California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Criminal Appeals California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Santa Ana Branch California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Riverside Branch California December 18, 2018 USAO Central District of California Assistant United States Attorney - Asset Forfeiture Section California December 18, 2018 USAO Western District of Texas AUSA Texas December 17, 2018 USAO Western District of Texas AUSA Texas December 17, 2018 USAO Western District of Texas AUSA Texas December 17, 2018 USAO Eastern District of Louisiana Assistant United States Attorney Louisiana December 17, 2018 Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) General Attorney District of Columbia December 14, 2018 Criminal Division (CRM) Trial Attorney Texas December 14, 2018 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jtfetter at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 17:28:53 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:28:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <00b801d497e7$943a5f40$bcaf1dc0$@sbgaal.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> <00b801d497e7$943a5f40$bcaf1dc0$@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: I can't wait to hold VFO's feet to the fire on this. If desired, I can discuss whether any of the partners at my firm would be willing to sign any letter we draft. I have at least been slowed down by difficulties with track changes. In the meantime though, we could ask that new text be put in bold/italic. One of the partners at my firm, who is sighted, prefers that anyway. And at least Jaws can be set to read different  styles in different voices, although that feature is also unacceptably glitchy. On 12/19/2018 5:09 PM, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: > It does > > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office:  (806) 763-3999 > Mobile:  (806) 781-9296 > Fax:  (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon > Dillon via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:56 PM > To: Laura Wolk > Cc: Shannon Dillon; Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Hi Shannon, > Using track changes is more sophisticated than putting a star and > initials by the change. Usually, when JAWS is working, you can see in > one font what was inserted, what was deleted, and multiple people make > changes to the same document. Also, the changes are indicated by font > as you make them. If you insert something, it shows up in a different > font as you are typing it and if you delete something, the font > changes as you delete it. So you don't have to go back and highlight > something and use strikeout to show it is deleted, or highlight it and > indicate with bold or italics you added it. Track changes does it all > in one step. And if you agree with the change you can click an accept > button. Or you can reject it. If you had to manually select your > change and change the font for hundreds of changes in one document > made by a bunch of people, it would just take so much time to go back > and manually get rid of all the changes after you decide whether you > agree or disagree with them. Hope this very simple explanation makes > sense. > > > > On 12/19/18, Laura Wolk wrote: >> Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document >> includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make >> sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, >> i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a >> word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note >> where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are >> reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the >> same. >> >> To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in >> footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document >> with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells >> you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me >> off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many >> are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can >> see what Jaws tells us. >> >> If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an >> email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, >> windows, and office you use. >> >> Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on >> Saturday! >> >> On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for >>> initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track >>> changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for >>> sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on >>> this together with VFO. >>> Shannon >>> >>> >>> On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >>>> document. >>>> >>>> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all >>>> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >>>> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >>>> changes" >>>> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, >>>> l, >>>> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >>>> >>>> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>>>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>>>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>>>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>>>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>>>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>>>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>>>> >>>>> Angie, >>>>> >>>>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >>>>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>>>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>>>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>>>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>>>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>>>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>>>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>>>> >>>>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>>>> are: >>>>> >>>>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>>>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>>>> accepted. >>>>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>>>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>>>> Please see for more information: >>>>> > https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f > -4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>>>> Best, >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this >>>>>> afternoon. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>>>> client >>>>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English >>>>>> and >>>>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word >>>>>> with >>>>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. >>>>>> I >>>>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>>>> for >>>>>> a >>>>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>>>>> restart. >>>>>> >>>>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>>>> Word >>>>>> to >>>>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>> trouble >>>>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>>>> even >>>>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>>>> assistant, >>>>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>>>> track-changes. >>>>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>>>> produce >>>>>> the >>>>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>>>> >>>>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more >>>>>> than >>>>>> one >>>>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>>>> this >>>>>> is >>>>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>>>> To: Angela Matney >>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>> >>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, this is great. >>>>>> >>>>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>>>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>>>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>>>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>>>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>>>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>>>>> the rest of you." >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>>>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>>>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>>>>> get our work done). >>>>>> >>>>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>>>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>>>> Laura, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>>>> read >>>>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things >>>>>>> out. >>>>>>> We >>>>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management >>>>>>> software. >>>>>>> When >>>>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>>>> example, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Angie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>>>>> via >>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>>>> Law >>>>>>> Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, >>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. >>>>>>> Can >>>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Laura >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday >>>>>>>> season. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>>>> calling >>>>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of >>>>>>>> editing >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for >>>>>>>> 6 >>>>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>>>> colectively >>>>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>>>>> succeed >>>>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>>>> announce a >>>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a >>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>>>> receiving >>>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary >>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>> needed >>>>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai > l.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.c > om >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail > .com >>> >>> -- >>> SHANNON L. DILLON >>> Secretary and Legislative Coordinator >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> of California >>> The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and >>> friends. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 18:12:37 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:12:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> <00b801d497e7$943a5f40$bcaf1dc0$@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: <34A1C5AC-3660-4E51-BDA9-A494C8935B1E@gmail.com> For those asking about NVDA, I find that it works marginally better with track changes and footnotes. In fact, it was after nojoining law review that I was forced to switch to NVDA. I switched to MS Word 2016 and was having many of the same issues described above. NVDA generally works fine with footnotes, though there is still lag sometimes. Track changes work, but not all that well—you still can't get an accurate list of them in the elements list, and sometimes the keystrokes to move by annotation do not work. However, because NVDA is open-source and has a lot of developers, it is far more likely to be responsive to issues like these than VFO. I know that switching screen readers is a big pain, but JAWS and NVDA were similar enough that I managed it, and there are certain things I actually like better than JAWS. If anyone wants to send me those sample documents I could also look at them with NVDA. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 21, 2018, at 12:28 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > I can't wait to hold VFO's feet to the fire on this. If desired, I can discuss whether any of the partners at my firm would be willing to sign any letter we draft. I have at least been slowed down by difficulties with track changes. > > In the meantime though, we could ask that new text be put in bold/italic. One of the partners at my firm, who is sighted, prefers that anyway. And at least Jaws can be set to read different styles in different voices, although that feature is also unacceptably glitchy. > >> On 12/19/2018 5:09 PM, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: >> It does >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon >> Dillon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:56 PM >> To: Laura Wolk >> Cc: Shannon Dillon; Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Hi Shannon, >> Using track changes is more sophisticated than putting a star and >> initials by the change. Usually, when JAWS is working, you can see in >> one font what was inserted, what was deleted, and multiple people make >> changes to the same document. Also, the changes are indicated by font >> as you make them. If you insert something, it shows up in a different >> font as you are typing it and if you delete something, the font >> changes as you delete it. So you don't have to go back and highlight >> something and use strikeout to show it is deleted, or highlight it and >> indicate with bold or italics you added it. Track changes does it all >> in one step. And if you agree with the change you can click an accept >> button. Or you can reject it. If you had to manually select your >> change and change the font for hundreds of changes in one document >> made by a bunch of people, it would just take so much time to go back >> and manually get rid of all the changes after you decide whether you >> agree or disagree with them. Hope this very simple explanation makes >> sense. >> >> >> >>> On 12/19/18, Laura Wolk wrote: >>> Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document >>> includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make >>> sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, >>> i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a >>> word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note >>> where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are >>> reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the >>> same. >>> >>> To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in >>> footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document >>> with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells >>> you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me >>> off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many >>> are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can >>> see what Jaws tells us. >>> >>> If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an >>> email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, >>> windows, and office you use. >>> >>> Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on >>> Saturday! >>> >>>> On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for >>>> initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track >>>> changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for >>>> sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on >>>> this together with VFO. >>>> Shannon >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >>>>> document. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all >>>>> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >>>>> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >>>>> changes" >>>>> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, >>>>> l, >>>>> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >>>>> >>>>> Angie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>>>>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>>>>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>>>>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>>>>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>>>>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>>>>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie, >>>>>> >>>>>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions, >>>>>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>>>>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>>>>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>>>>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>>>>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>>>>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>>>>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>>>>> are: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>>>>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>>>>> accepted. >>>>>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>>>>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>>>>> Please see for more information: >> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f >> -4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Rahul >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this >>>>>>> afternoon. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>>>>> client >>>>>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to >>>>>>> restart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>>>>> Word >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>>> trouble >>>>>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>>>>> even >>>>>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>>>>> assistant, >>>>>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>>>>> track-changes. >>>>>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>>>>> produce >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>>>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Angie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>>>>> To: Angela Matney >>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>>>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, this is great. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>>>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>>>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of >>>>>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>>>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>>>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very >>>>>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many >>>>>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>>>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what >>>>>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>>>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all >>>>>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for >>>>>>> the rest of you." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know >>>>>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>>>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>>>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>>>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as >>>>>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must >>>>>>> get our work done). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I >>>>>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>>>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Laura >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>>>>> Laura, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things >>>>>>>> out. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management >>>>>>>> software. >>>>>>>> When >>>>>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Angie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>>>>> Law >>>>>>>> Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't >>>>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, >>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. >>>>>>>> Can >>>>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer >>>>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Laura >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday >>>>>>>>> season. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >>>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>>>>> calling >>>>>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a >>>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of >>>>>>>>> editing >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for >>>>>>>>> 6 >>>>>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>>>>> colectively >>>>>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to >>>>>>>>> succeed >>>>>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>>>>> announce a >>>>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a >>>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes >>>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>>>>> receiving >>>>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary >>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>> needed >>>>>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai >> l.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.c >> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail >> .com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> SHANNON L. DILLON >>>> Secretary and Legislative Coordinator >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> of California >>>> The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and >>>> friends. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 20:43:05 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:43:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <34A1C5AC-3660-4E51-BDA9-A494C8935B1E@gmail.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB93C@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <855EEF7B-925F-4B6A-8DFD-4129BAC52CB7@gmail.com> <00b801d497e7$943a5f40$bcaf1dc0$@sbgaal.com> <34A1C5AC-3660-4E51-BDA9-A494C8935B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all Rahul's custom keystrokes work around sounds promising to me, so thank you for that. I'd be very happy to help out on testing a document also, if useful - I don't have Office 365 though. Kind regards Ger On 12/21/18, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > For those asking about NVDA, I find that it works marginally better with > track changes and footnotes. In fact, it was after nojoining law review that > I was forced to switch to NVDA. I switched to MS Word 2016 and was having > many of the same issues described above. NVDA generally works fine with > footnotes, though there is still lag sometimes. Track changes work, but not > all that well—you still can't get an accurate list of them in the elements > list, and sometimes the keystrokes to move by annotation do not work. > However, because NVDA is open-source and has a lot of developers, it is far > more likely to be responsive to issues like these than VFO. I know that > switching screen readers is a big pain, but JAWS and NVDA were similar > enough that I managed it, and there are certain things I actually like > better than JAWS. > > If anyone wants to send me those sample documents I could also look at them > with NVDA. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 12:28 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> I can't wait to hold VFO's feet to the fire on this. If desired, I can >> discuss whether any of the partners at my firm would be willing to sign >> any letter we draft. I have at least been slowed down by difficulties with >> track changes. >> >> In the meantime though, we could ask that new text be put in bold/italic. >> One of the partners at my firm, who is sighted, prefers that anyway. And >> at least Jaws can be set to read different styles in different voices, >> although that feature is also unacceptably glitchy. >> >>> On 12/19/2018 5:09 PM, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: >>> It does >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon >>> Dillon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:56 PM >>> To: Laura Wolk >>> Cc: Shannon Dillon; Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Hi Shannon, >>> Using track changes is more sophisticated than putting a star and >>> initials by the change. Usually, when JAWS is working, you can see in >>> one font what was inserted, what was deleted, and multiple people make >>> changes to the same document. Also, the changes are indicated by font >>> as you make them. If you insert something, it shows up in a different >>> font as you are typing it and if you delete something, the font >>> changes as you delete it. So you don't have to go back and highlight >>> something and use strikeout to show it is deleted, or highlight it and >>> indicate with bold or italics you added it. Track changes does it all >>> in one step. And if you agree with the change you can click an accept >>> button. Or you can reject it. If you had to manually select your >>> change and change the font for hundreds of changes in one document >>> made by a bunch of people, it would just take so much time to go back >>> and manually get rid of all the changes after you decide whether you >>> agree or disagree with them. Hope this very simple explanation makes >>> sense. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 12/19/18, Laura Wolk wrote: >>>> Rahul, Thank you! Can you please make sure that the document >>>> includes footnotes that also contain revisions? Also, I would make >>>> sure the document contains all the types of revisions we might expect, >>>> i.e., deletions, insertions, changing font attributes like changing a >>>> word into italics, and perhaps making a paragraph insertion. Note >>>> where they are and how Jaws communicates that info to you as you are >>>> reading through the document, and the rest of us who test will do the >>>> same. >>>> >>>> To drive home the point that Jaws never captures track changes in >>>> footnotes, can you please also make a second, very simple document >>>> with one footnote containing one revision, and verify that jaws tells >>>> you that the document contains no revisions? You can send them to me >>>> off-list with your notes about how many revisions there are, how many >>>> are reported, and where specific types of revisions are so that we can >>>> see what Jaws tells us. >>>> >>>> If you're interested in being a part of the testing list, send me an >>>> email at laura.wolk at gmail.com and let me know the version of jaws, >>>> windows, and office you use. >>>> >>>> Thanks, everyone! So glad I didn't hold back from my soapboxing on >>>> Saturday! >>>> >>>>> On 12/19/18, Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Hi. I just wanted to thank Rahul for the directions and Laura for >>>>> initiating the track changes thread. I've been fighting with track >>>>> changes forever and it seems to have gotten worse. Thanks everyone for >>>>> sharing their work-arounds and experiences. I'm so glad we can work on >>>>> this together with VFO. >>>>> Shannon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample >>>>>> document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when >>>>>> all >>>>>> changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either >>>>>> incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all >>>>>> changes" >>>>>> and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, >>>>>> a, >>>>>> l, >>>>>> and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more >>>>>>> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual >>>>>>> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as >>>>>>> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual >>>>>>> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to >>>>>>> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually >>>>>>> discernible and those automatically listed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Angie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next >>>>>>> revisions, >>>>>>> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab >>>>>>> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands> >>>>>>> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from >>>>>>> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/ >>>>>>> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing >>>>>>> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set >>>>>>> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you >>>>>>> are: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new >>>>>>> document. This results in all the changes being automatically >>>>>>> accepted. >>>>>>> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up >>>>>>> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted. >>>>>>> Please see for more information: >>> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f >>> -4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Rahul >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this >>>>>>>> afternoon. >>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our >>>>>>>> client >>>>>>>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 >>>>>>>> rows. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> restart. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in >>>>>>>> Word >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>>>> trouble >>>>>>>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my >>>>>>>> assistant, >>>>>>>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of >>>>>>>> track-changes. >>>>>>>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to >>>>>>>> produce >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for >>>>>>>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Angie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM >>>>>>>> To: Angela Matney >>>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; >>>>>>>> slabarre at labarrelaw.com; >>>>>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, this is great. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you >>>>>>>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. >>>>>>>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and >>>>>>>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other >>>>>>>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could >>>>>>>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop >>>>>>>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the rest of you." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I >>>>>>>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways >>>>>>>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear >>>>>>>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also >>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>> get our work done). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can be in touch with FS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB >>>>>>>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Laura >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: >>>>>>>>> Laura, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document >>>>>>>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" >>>>>>>>> track-changes >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just >>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things >>>>>>>>> out. >>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>> can produce documents like this with our document management >>>>>>>>> software. >>>>>>>>> When >>>>>>>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for >>>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> recognize it as an insertion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of >>>>>>>>> revisions, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Angie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: >>>>>>>>> amatney at loeb.com >>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura >>>>>>>>> Wolk >>>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM >>>>>>>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com >>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind >>>>>>>>> Law >>>>>>>>> Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any >>>>>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original >>>>>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This >>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, >>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws >>>>>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. >>>>>>>>> Can >>>>>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's >>>>>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user >>>>>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome >>>>>>>>> character-by-character analysis. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried >>>>>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out >>>>>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page >>>>>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably >>>>>>>>> closer >>>>>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from >>>>>>>>> footnotes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file >>>>>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this >>>>>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Laura >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great >>>>>>>>>> interest >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind >>>>>>>>>> Lawyers >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday >>>>>>>>>> season. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim >>>>>>>>>> Elder >>>>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' >>>>>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is >>>>>>>>>> calling >>>>>>>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to >>>>>>>>>> diversify >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> technology tools. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>>>>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of >>>>>>>>>> editing >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> 6 >>>>>>>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all >>>>>>>>>> colectively >>>>>>>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> succeed >>>>>>>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>>>>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>>>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>>>>>>>>> $1,000 >>>>>>>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>>>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>>>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>>>>>>>>> announce a >>>>>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a >>>>>>>>>> hundred >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that >>>>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all >>>>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are >>>>>>>>>> receiving >>>>>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are >>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>>>>>>>>> forewarned, >>>>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> needed >>>>>>>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >>>>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%40gmail >>> .com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> SHANNON L. DILLON >>>>> Secretary and Legislative Coordinator >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> of California >>>>> The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and >>>>> friends. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 20:54:15 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:54:15 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] E Discovery Review Platforms Message-ID: Hello I have written previously about the inaccessibility of E Discovery review platforms. I have never found a platform that works with JAWS. If you know of a platform that does work, will you let me know? If you agree with me that these platforms are not accessible, will you join with me in writing to the developers of JAWS or indeed NVDA about this? Kind regards Ger From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 20:54:16 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:54:16 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] E Discovery Review Platforms Message-ID: Hello I have written previously about the inaccessibility of E Discovery review platforms. I have never found a platform that works with JAWS. If you know of a platform that does work, will you let me know? If you agree with me that these platforms are not accessible, will you join with me in writing to the developers of JAWS or indeed NVDA about this? Kind regards Ger From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Sat Dec 22 06:19:04 2018 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 06:19:04 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Message-ID: Hi all, I just want to say how great this is to be reading this thread. I am articling right now, and I struggled all through law school with track changes. Not getting consistent results. Eventually I gave up and just started telling colleagues that track changes were not possible, and they would just have to send me documents without them. Of course, I realize that moving into practice that this is going to negatively impact on my career. If there's a reliable solution, and a good tutorial to go with it I would be jumping for joy. I have also had the same problem Rahul mentioned with Jaws jumping to the top of a pdf document instead of just going up one line. So either I would have to be very careful to read the document without scrolling up to re-read anything, or convert to word document and accept the fact that I would be reading a document that seemed to concern itself with such obvious OCR anomalies as questioning whether a particular decision is Ultra Wires. Improving Jaws functionality with respect to PDF's and track changes would be excellent, and I would be very interested in a tutorial that would provide information about how to use track changes with Jaws. I find learning difficult when the results are inconsistent. Sometimes I would need to hold down the control button to get Jaws to read the next change, but sometimes that would make Jaws skip the change entirely. I feel a little relieved knowing I'm not the only one with this problem, and I would love hearing more about the solution. All the best, Ben Fulton From rene0373 at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:27:50 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 11:27:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms Message-ID: <268FD964-8055-4F89-844F-DED6C447C8C1@gmail.com> Listmates, I am writing to you on my iPad. It uses VoiceOver, Apple’s screen reader. I used to use JAWS, but I’ve never looked back. Recently I collaborated with a colleague on a project and he suggested I use track changes in Word. My first response was, I don’t know how to do that. JAWS didn’t do it well for me. But I didn’t want to say “I can’t“ to my colleague, so I tried track changes in MS Word using VoiceOver, and it was fun! I had a blast, and zipped right through those edits. Sure, JAWS Is important software and keeping up one’s skill in using it is important too. But give me my iPad and VoiceOver every time! Same goes with E discovery. Apple’s screen reader isn’t perfect, and I get frustrated with it sometimes. But I can concentrate on the substance of my project without getting hijacked into side issues about key commands and whether JAWS will or will not let me do my work. Don’t even get me started about the comparative price! Bottom line for me: kick the computer and pick up the pad! Happy holidays everyone, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:35:50 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 19:35:50 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms In-Reply-To: <268FD964-8055-4F89-844F-DED6C447C8C1@gmail.com> References: <268FD964-8055-4F89-844F-DED6C447C8C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Elizabeth I use Voice Over on my phone but am not especially quick typing on my phone. Is the pad quicker What experience using e discovery platforms do you have? Thanks Ger On Sat 22 Dec 2018 at 19:29 Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: > Listmates, > I am writing to you on my iPad. It uses VoiceOver, Apple’s screen reader. > I used to use JAWS, but I’ve never looked back. Recently I collaborated > with a colleague on a project and he suggested I use track changes in Word. > My first response was, I don’t know how to do that. JAWS didn’t do it well > for me. But I didn’t want to say “I can’t“ to my colleague, so I tried > track changes in MS Word using VoiceOver, and it was fun! I had a blast, > and zipped right through those edits. > Sure, JAWS Is important software and keeping up one’s skill in using it is > important too. But give me my iPad and VoiceOver every time! > Same goes with E discovery. > Apple’s screen reader isn’t perfect, and I get frustrated with it > sometimes. But I can concentrate on the substance of my project without > getting hijacked into side issues about key commands and whether JAWS will > or will not let me do my work. > Don’t even get me started about the comparative price! > Bottom line for me: kick the computer and pick up the pad! > Happy holidays everyone, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > -- null From rene0373 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:31:29 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 07:31:29 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms Message-ID: Dear Ger, I dictate first, then edit afterwards. And I edit very carefully. But that’s still faster than typing. Dictating lets me use either my iPhone or my iPad, at will. But I do type now and then, and the keyboard on the iPad is so much bigger. And you can always attach a Bluetooth, more tactile, keyboard to the iPad and use the whole thing as a case. I don’t use the iPad Pro, because I can get by with the regular one at half the price. But the iPad Pro has an external keyboard that snaps right on and doesn’t need Bluetooth. Plus you get 4 speakers and some other bills and whistles. I confess I haven’t used much E discovery, except for receiving and maintaining confidential materials in Box and in PDF Expert. But these apps work beautifully. I just think that Apple’s vision accessibility tools are so much more responsive to so many more different apps and platforms than those provided by Freedom Scientific. Hope this helps. Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 17:36:21 2018 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:36:21 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this Elizabeth! Kind regards Ger On 12/23/18, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: > > Dear Ger, > I dictate first, then edit afterwards. And I edit very carefully. > But that’s still faster than typing. > Dictating lets me use either my iPhone or my iPad, at will. > But I do type now and then, and the keyboard on the iPad is so much bigger. > And you can always attach a Bluetooth, more tactile, keyboard to the iPad > and use the whole thing as a case. I don’t use the iPad Pro, because I can > get by with the regular one at half the price. But the iPad Pro has an > external keyboard that snaps right on and doesn’t need Bluetooth. Plus you > get 4 speakers and some other bills and whistles. > I confess I haven’t used much E discovery, except for receiving and > maintaining confidential materials in Box and in PDF Expert. But these apps > work beautifully. > I just think that Apple’s vision accessibility tools are so much more > responsive to so many more different apps and platforms than those provided > by Freedom Scientific. > Hope this helps. > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 19:29:41 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:29:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Elizabeth, I will confess to never having thought of taking this approach. Do you find that MS Word works reasonably well with Voiceover? I do use my iPhone for writing occasionally, but not that much. I also have a bluetooth keyboard that I like very much. What advantages does the iPad have over the phone in this approach if you use a keyboard with the phone? Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: > > Thanks for this Elizabeth! > > Kind regards > > Ger > >> On 12/23/18, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Ger, >> I dictate first, then edit afterwards. And I edit very carefully. >> But that’s still faster than typing. >> Dictating lets me use either my iPhone or my iPad, at will. >> But I do type now and then, and the keyboard on the iPad is so much bigger. >> And you can always attach a Bluetooth, more tactile, keyboard to the iPad >> and use the whole thing as a case. I don’t use the iPad Pro, because I can >> get by with the regular one at half the price. But the iPad Pro has an >> external keyboard that snaps right on and doesn’t need Bluetooth. Plus you >> get 4 speakers and some other bills and whistles. >> I confess I haven’t used much E discovery, except for receiving and >> maintaining confidential materials in Box and in PDF Expert. But these apps >> work beautifully. >> I just think that Apple’s vision accessibility tools are so much more >> responsive to so many more different apps and platforms than those provided >> by Freedom Scientific. >> Hope this helps. >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:16:28 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:16:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <014101d4967f$c23679b0$46a36d10$@visi.com> <005a01d496ea$ef80b410$ce821c30$@visi.com>, Message-ID: <031c01d49b15$88e7ad10$9ab70730$@gmail.com> I just wanted to add that I used track changes regularly at my former workplace, and constantly experienced the issues that Laura and others are pointing out. Jaws also consistently froze whenever I was trying to insert a comment in track changes, and I was altogether unable to reply to others' comments. The option to do so was there, but I could not get it to work. Not being able to efficiently and accurately use Track Changes was a big hindrance to editing and working on briefs and other documents on an equal footing with my sighted peers. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Welch via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:11 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Richard Welch ; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Dear all, I have enjoyed this lively thread. I would point out that many people who are blind using jaws in education are at a disadvantage with these issues especially when faced with multiple revisions or edits from their faculty members trying to get them on the right track when it comes to papers and the like and Freedom scientific's inability or unwillingness ultimately to provide a product that works the way they say it does Versus reality is problematic at best. A good example of the problems that have been consistent over the years has been that of spellchecking and incompatibility issues with this consistently working with the JAWS screen reader. I have been a little bit amused with the 2010 comments, in light of the reality we live in, and the desire of many professionals to collaborate. All my best, Richard Welch J.D. Candidate, mslaw.edu Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 3:07 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk; Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Dear Steve, I really appreciate your response and all of the points it raises. Rest assured I had a very long talk with a Freedom Scientific representative about exactly what engendered my original post to this list. Whether he plans to pass that on, I have no idea. But I did it for the precise reasons you expressed, and I think that doing it in person is essential compared to over email so that they can tell how deeply problematic the situation is. That being said, I think that blind people have a responsibility to step up and help each other out, even if we aren't specifically relying on a buggy aspect of jaws. You are absolutely correct that companies must prioritize the bugs that impact the most users, but the sad fact is that, right now, this will likely mean that the bugs that matter most to those who are using their technology to access education or a profession will be farther down the list. It's also the sad fact that the more that these bugs exist, the fewer people will be able to actually **access** that same education and professional opportunities. So yes, I suspect that of all blind users of Jaws, there are not terribly many that use track changes. Of those, there are fewer still who heavily edit, or incorporate multiple streams of edits. And of those, how many use Braille displays? But we all understand that track changes are necessary to be gainfully employed in 2018, to be a member of a law review, to co-author a paper with a professor, etc, etc. We can look beyond ourselves and our own circumstances and throw our hat into the ring to say, this **is** important. This does need to be fixed, even if I only use this feature sporadically or I used to use it in school but don't right now, etc. etc. For instance, I had no idea about the bug with insert+F. I use that feature constantly, many times a day. I imagine most other lawyers who are peer reviewing or editing their own work do also. But even if I didn't, I understand the importance of needing to reliably access that information to produce work on par with a sighted peer, and I gladly would have called up and pointed it out and asked for change if I could replicate it. If we communicate with each other more, we can be a larger collective force, even if what we require differs according to our professional experiences. So, in that spirit, I would like to say that the three things that hinder my ability to be a productive lawyer, to do the same work in the same amount of time as my sighted peers without needing to self-edit my billables, yada yada, are the following 1. Track change issue rehashed ad nauseam here. 2. The fact that, although I have been reporting this since 2016, Jaws is still incredibly slow in footnotes, will not let you select multiple words of text without starting to unselect those same words again, and does not announce the number of the footnote you are in. (note: every single time I raise this issue, I'm told by the FS rep that they "don't use footnotes much," so they're "not terribly familiar with what you mean." Inexcusable. 3. The fact that the Braille display raises dots 7-8 for all footnoted text, making them even more difficult to read. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, Steve. Your points are all valid. I'm just calling on the community to examine whether we've ever been negatively impacted by FS's refusal to deal with this issue in a substantial way and, if so, to take five minutes to voice our discontent. Now, I have to end this, as my Jaws has crashed. Laura On 12/18/18, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, > > First, I share some of your frustrations with the state of technology today. > I am not a lawyer, and I do not use Microsoft Word at the level of > sophistication that you and others here probably use it. However, I do > work as a volunteer as part of my responsibilities as an officer in > the National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science to try to get > problems resolved when we are aware of them. > > If this is an issue that a number of people are facing, it is > essential that it be reported to Freedom Scientific. Yes, I realize > that they were VFO and are not Vispero, but the Freedom Scientific > name still works for email and web site access. There isn't much that > they will be able to do, though, without an example document. > > While I think it is reasonable to expect that when a number is given > that the number should be accurate, it helps to know exactly how it > impacts people when it is wrong. It seems unlikely that you are > counting revisions and then stopping when you reach the number of > revisions that JAWS provided, so it will help prioritize this bug to understand the real impact on you. > The cold hard facts are that the day of releasing any software when it > is close to being free of bugs is gone and is probably not returning > soon. I am not talking about JAWS specifically, but am including > Microsoft Office itself and all software companies. As a person who > has been programming and working in the Information Technology field > for forty years, I hate that this is the case, but my dislike of the > situation is not going to change anything. The result is that > companies like Vispero are forced to prioritize the bugs they correct > and knowing the impact on you is part of that process. If this isn't > an issue that is bothering a lot of people, it would make sense to try > to find out why others are not bothered, and how others are dealing > with this. I have reported, as has the NFB, a bug in Microsoft Word > that can incorrectly report the color of the current text in Word as > Black on Black or "Default Color" without providing the correct > information. Yet, that bug remains because it isn't something that > bothers most people, apparently. For some reason, it is something I must use more than most people, or perhaps I am particularly crabby about it. > > Finally, and this is not a criticism of NVDA, but one can't assume > that NVDA is handling this correctly without trying the same document. > . . There is a possibility that the problem is with a value returned > by Microsoft, for example, and that could affect both screen readers. > Even then, there is so much constant change in Microsoft Word that it > could even be the case that it has already been addressed in a version > of Word that is not commonly in use yet. > > If people on this list find this particular error to be important, it > is essential that someone produce or provide a sample document that > shows this error so others can investigate it and help bring the > problem to the attention of the correct people. It also helps if those > using JAWS bring this to the attention of Freedom Scientific as paying > customers, but they will need an example to have any chance of > resolving the issue. Also, sharing how others work around this problem > is a realistic short term solution. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:55 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; Steve Jacobson > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > I've reached out to NVDA folks and heard that in theory it works. But > I don't know if they are working with files as large/with as many > edits as I'm talking about. The problem is that I can't test a work > doc on my home PC, and I'll need to get permission to download NVDA at > work. So if anyone could assist with confirming or denying that it's better, I'd appreciate it. > I truly believe the NFB has to throw its clout behind this--how can a > professional function in any aspect of society in this day without > reliable recourse to track changes? We can't all keep spare machines > from 2005 around, what with the cost and firms having this funny > hang-up about security breaches and all. > > On 12/18/18, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >> Steve, many of us reached out to Freedom Scientific about this and >> the somewhat improved, albeit imperfect, system that we now have is >> the product of that exercise. >> >> Best, >> Rahul

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>> >> On 18/12/2018, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Has anyone verified if NVDA provides more accurate feedback? Also, >>> is anyone in communication with JAWS on this? I am sorry if this was >>> stated earlier. However, if NVDA handles this aspect correctly, then >>> one can definitely lean on JAWS. Ideally, the problem should be >>> described to JAWS and a document exhibiting the problem should be >>> attached as well. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:25 PM >>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >>> Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more >>> than a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every >>> round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was >>> my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be >>> great if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually >>> give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably >>>> in >>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an >>> option. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Laura Wolk >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>>> >>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>>> traffic >>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>>> >>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>>> announce a >>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with >>> the elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C276 >>> 29667453 >>> 246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 >>> 36806968 >>> 012129239&sdata=FWXGQq8fJ2oKpyyWta60zoZUfocUcAuKsT3UPU0MH3M%3D&a >>> mp;reser >>> ved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org% >>> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi. >>> com& >>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C27629667453246e7b3bf08d664903de7%7C84df9e7fe9f640a >>> fb435aaa >>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636806968012129239&sdata=RCLBnlN2xO%2B9O4Xtr >>> SrT1d2%2 >>> BZZl8fXAiG5C3n046DSU%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01% >>> 7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa >>> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFT >>> zJel96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb >>> net.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Frahul.bajaj1038% >>> 2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f >>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201& >>> ;sdata=cjYK4odItQIv8exdSjF819STyP1GyMIDGCHYZxglhMM%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbn >> et.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C >> %7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa >> a%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=NrhZo6OGfK9%2BHzqK1WRfFTzJel >> 96iU0msSN9o0XnjUQ%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbn >> et.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Flaura.wolk%2540gma >> il.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C977420d1a560429f9c1a08d664d7546f%7C84df9 >> e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636807273323049201&sdata=Np >> 89%2BBQUxfk35pOjZPS4c5ZvT%2BO6jK8MjfjCXGovM4E%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:20:21 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:20:21 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <032101d49b16$138ab430$3aa01c90$@gmail.com> I don't remember now whether Jaws read both the original and edited version of the document. I'll have to look out for that the next time I'm editing something. But I do recall that it did not announce "revisions." Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Scott, I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome character-by-character analysis. For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this could accompany the NABL letter. Laura On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest > and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of > Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write > MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very > best of this holiday season. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM > To: 'Laura Wolk' > Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they > could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is > calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to > diversify my technology tools. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Wolk > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM > To: tim at timeldermusic.com > Cc: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as > the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than > a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round > of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my > work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great > if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us > the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, > wrote: >> >> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in > Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >> traffic > and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this > $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >> >> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >> announce a > much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually > worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, > since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of > security that you have, in fact, looked at every revision when there > could be a hundred more that are not displaying that you haven't > reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible inconvenience when > you are integrating all changes into one draft from only one document, > it is a huge problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits > from multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then > compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill > failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools needed in > 2018 to maintain "Job access." >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. > com > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:22:29 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:22:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <032201d49b16$5ff27ce0$1fd776a0$@gmail.com> I experience this issue with PDFs as well. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:58 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Rahul Bajaj ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Hi Everyone, 1. First of all, let me say how glad I am that this issue is getting the much-needed attention that it deserves. Until a few months ago, Freedom Scientific simply refused to acknowledge that the sporadic functioning of the virtual viewer for accessing a list of revisions was an issue which they could address. It was only after some of us reached out to them that we were able to move past the point where JAWS would simply say that there were no revisions in a document when the number of revisions exceeded 100. So I am confident that we will be able to get all outstanding issues resolved if we are able to make good the claim that the inaccessibility of track changes impacts a critical mass of blind people. 2. I echo the challenges that Laura voiced in using footnotes - the general sluggishness of JAWS, coupled with the fact that it is very difficult to edit them or to ascertain their number. 3. One significant issue which I have been grappling with for the last 3-4 months is the inaccessibility of PDF documents with JAWS - when used with Adobe Reader, JAWS throws you back by many pages if you try going up a line and doesn't enable you to read a document in a para-wise fashion. All that you can realistically do, except for using the OCR feature or converting the document into Word, is to use the say-all command or navigate the document line-by-line, both of which are highly inefficient ways to read a document. I reached out to Vispero about this, and they attributed the problem to Adobe. I have been communicating with Adobe accessibility team for the last month, but they haven't really taken this issue seriously, as it appears that not many people have reported the issue. So I wholeheartedly agree with Laura when she says that we need to act collectively on these issues, if we want to be taken seriously. I am happy to help in whatever way I can, including by way of supplying a sample document with many revisions in it. Best, Rahul

Virus-free. www.avg.com
On 19/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >> best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmai l.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:24:37 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:24:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <032301d49b16$ac91d050$05b570f0$@gmail.com> I can also help test. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems > with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our > document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but > there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would > be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes > to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would > just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure > things out. We can produce documents like this with our document > management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and > double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, > or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los > Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind > Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >> best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.com From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:25:25 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:25:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <032401d49b16$c8dc65e0$5a9531a0$@gmail.com> Scott, Let me know if you'd like assistance with the letter as well. Thanks so much for willing to voice our concerns. Happy Holidays! Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:47 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' ; Angela Matney Cc: Tai Tomasi ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes I am happy to assist with this in any way possible, and I do have an Office 365 subscription so could test it at home, but I would need test documents. Scott, please let me know if I can assist with the letter. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems > with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our > document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but > there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would > be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes > to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would > just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure > things out. We can produce documents like this with our document > management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and > double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, > or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los > Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind > Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >> best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.com From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:45:02 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:45:02 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <032b01d49b19$863d9ee0$92b8dca0$@gmail.com> Elizabeth, To add, Is MS Word just an app you download to the iPad? I've never used it with VoiceOver. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 2:30 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: kelby carlson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Track Changes Update and E Discovery Platforms Elizabeth, I will confess to never having thought of taking this approach. Do you find that MS Word works reasonably well with Voiceover? I do use my iPhone for writing occasionally, but not that much. I also have a bluetooth keyboard that I like very much. What advantages does the iPad have over the phone in this approach if you use a keyboard with the phone? Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: > > Thanks for this Elizabeth! > > Kind regards > > Ger > >> On 12/23/18, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Ger, >> I dictate first, then edit afterwards. And I edit very carefully. >> But that’s still faster than typing. >> Dictating lets me use either my iPhone or my iPad, at will. >> But I do type now and then, and the keyboard on the iPad is so much bigger. >> And you can always attach a Bluetooth, more tactile, keyboard to the >> iPad and use the whole thing as a case. I don’t use the iPad Pro, >> because I can get by with the regular one at half the price. But the >> iPad Pro has an external keyboard that snaps right on and doesn’t >> need Bluetooth. Plus you get 4 speakers and some other bills and whistles. >> I confess I haven’t used much E discovery, except for receiving and >> maintaining confidential materials in Box and in PDF Expert. But >> these apps work beautifully. >> I just think that Apple’s vision accessibility tools are so much more >> responsive to so many more different apps and platforms than those >> provided by Freedom Scientific. >> Hope this helps. >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier% >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.com From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:47:41 2018 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:47:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB77F@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <015d01d4966d$cc3da260$64b8e720$@timeldermusic.com> <78DA85CC-D21F-48A9-A174-E46CEAA715BA@gmail.com> <006301d4972d$fd15e4e0$f741aea0$@timeldermusic.com> <056a01d49730$427ba1d0$c772e570$@labarrelaw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB665@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243DB77F@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <034201d49b19$e5165240$af42f6c0$@gmail.com> Angie, I'd also like to know what you use for comparison software. Thanks. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 11:20 AM To: Laura Wolk Cc: Angela Matney ; Blind Law Mailing List ; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes Laura, I'm happy to send an explanation of what I do to help navigate this issue. It's not ideal, and sometimes it results in multiple versions of a document being open at the same time, but it is workable, and it's the best system I've used so far. I'll try to get to that later this evening. Thanks, Angie -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; slabarre at labarrelaw.com; tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes OK, this is great. Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws. As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably. Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for the rest of you." Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must get our work done). Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I can be in touch with FS. Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions. Laura On 12/19/18, Angela Matney wrote: > Laura, > > I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and > revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems > with it reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our > document comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but > there are many situations where being able to use track-changes would > be helpful, and our software doesn't help with the comments issue. > > Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes > to the extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would > just read changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure > things out. We can produce documents like this with our document > management software. When JAWS tells me that something is blue and > double-underlined, for example, I recognize it as an insertion. > > If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, > or if you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know. > > Angie > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los > Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM > To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com > Cc: Laura Wolk ; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind > Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes > > > > Scott, > > I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any > assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also > have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original > and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't > used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows > 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws > doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can > others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's > contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user > accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome > character-by-character analysis. > > For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried > hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out > fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page > document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer > to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes. > > If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file > with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this > could accompany the NABL letter. > > Laura > > On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest >> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of >> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write >> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very >> best of this holiday season. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM >> To: 'Laura Wolk' >> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if >> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of >> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning >> NVDA to diversify my technology tools. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Wolk >> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: tim at timeldermusic.com >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >> >> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as >> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than >> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round >> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my >> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great >> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us >> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, >> wrote: >>> >>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in >> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an option. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Laura Wolk >>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes >>> >>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of >>> traffic >> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this >> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment. >>> >>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions. >>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will >>> announce a >> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is >> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to >> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the >> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every >> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying >> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible >> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft >> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving >> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying >> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be >> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the >> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw. >> com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 13:05:22 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 08:05:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Message-ID: Hello blind law participants, I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. I could go on and on…I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don’t hesitate to redirect. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak-Smalley From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Mon Dec 24 13:10:58 2018 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:10:58 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Maura Kutnyak Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Hello blind law participants, I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak-Smalley _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 13:45:12 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 08:45:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: > > You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! > I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. > > > > Dr Paul Harpur > BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) > Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. > Senior Lecturer > > TC Beirne School of Law > The University of Queensland > Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > > T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page > CRICOS code: 00025B > > > > > Scientia ac Labore > > This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Hello blind law participants, > I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. > > I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. > > My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. > > I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. > > Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak-Smalley > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:27:21 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 09:27:21 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. As to your questions: 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if you don’t mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All of a sudden, you’re in a classroom with people ten years younger—people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don’t get sucked into the grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you’re there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, they don’t seem to be your goals. 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You’ll need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real difference I found is that, if you’re on journal, it can be interesting getting accommodations from 3L’s (Third-year law students) while you’re a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L’s, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can’t help much there other than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20’s and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a “non-traditional” path. Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! >> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >> >> >> >> Dr Paul Harpur >> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) >> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >> Senior Lecturer >> >> TC Beirne School of Law >> The University of Queensland >> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >> >> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >> CRICOS code: 00025B >> >> >> >> >> Scientia ac Labore >> >> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> Hello blind law participants, >> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. >> >> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >> >> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >> >> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >> >> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 15:38:07 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:38:07 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <416F61B7-9F4A-4CC1-A6B7-B2399E33833D@gmail.com> James, your writing is great. You have me pegged. Nontraditional and not motivated to end up at a fancy NY firm. I appreciate your take on the GRE v. LSAT question. which exam to sit is likely one of my most pressing questions. Perhaps second to, will law school turn my family upside down? As you noted, I need to find other parents who have taken the plunge. Is this my dream? I think so but I am worried that some kind of glamorized version of the process and outcome is what drives me. Thanks so much for your time and input. Warmly, Maura On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. > As to your questions: > 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if you don’t mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. > 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All of a sudden, you’re in a classroom with people ten years younger—people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don’t get sucked into the grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you’re there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, they don’t seem to be your goals. > 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You’ll need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real difference I found is that, if you’re on journal, it can be interesting getting accommodations from 3L’s (Third-year law students) while you’re a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L’s, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. > 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can’t help much there other than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20’s and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a “non-traditional” path. Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. > I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! >>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Paul Harpur >>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) >>> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>> Senior Lecturer >>> >>> TC Beirne School of Law >>> The University of Queensland >>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>> >>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >>> CRICOS code: 00025B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientia ac Labore >>> >>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Hello blind law participants, >>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. >>> >>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>> >>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>> >>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>> >>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 15:41:44 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:41:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. > As to your questions: > 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if you don’t mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. > 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All of a sudden, you’re in a classroom with people ten years younger—people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don’t get sucked into the grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you’re there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, they don’t seem to be your goals. > 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You’ll need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real difference I found is that, if you’re on journal, it can be interesting getting accommodations from 3L’s (Third-year law students) while you’re a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L’s, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. > 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can’t help much there other than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20’s and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a “non-traditional” path. Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. > I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! >>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Paul Harpur >>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) >>> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>> Senior Lecturer >>> >>> TC Beirne School of Law >>> The University of Queensland >>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>> >>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >>> CRICOS code: 00025B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientia ac Labore >>> >>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Hello blind law participants, >>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. >>> >>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>> >>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>> >>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>> >>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From rene0373 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 17:03:04 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 09:03:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Message-ID: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> Dear Listmates, This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Dec 24 17:39:04 2018 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:39:04 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Message-ID: <027201d49baf$90e229b0$b2a67d10$@labarrelaw.com> >From the Rocky Mountains, we want to wish you and yours the very best of this season. Here's to a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!! Cheeers! The LaBarre's From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 17:40:38 2018 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody J. Davis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:40:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. Best, Cody Davis Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: > > Dear Listmates, > This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. > Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. > Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. > When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. > Thanks, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From rene0373 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 18:27:27 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:27:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Cody and all, Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. It is serving itself rather than its market. “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” They’ve come to believe their own press. And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. Cheers, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. Best, Cody Davis Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: > > Dear Listmates, > This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. > Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. > Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. > When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. > Thanks, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 19:13:26 2018 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody J. Davis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 14:13:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> I think another large piece of the problem with FS is that they have secured their place of prominence by working with federal, state, and local governments to be sure they remain more visiable over all other options. As employers, government entities seem to have the impression that JAWS is the only solution. As a resource provider, government entities, like my state’s Division of Services for the Blind, seem to only promote the use of JAWS as a suitable screen reader in the workplace. I’m sure FS has something to do with these perceptions. I believe much of FS’s grip on the market can be alleviated simply through education on alternative products. DSB should be giving me all of my options and my employer should be open to all the AT alternatives. I would love to see Microsoft putting more effort into accessibility, both in the Office suite of products and in Windows OS. They have done better, and I had hoped that Narrator would be much more comprehensive in Windows 10. I was soarly disappointed. Microsoft has yet to put in the effort that Apple has to make their products accessible. Something Else I like about Apple is they are normalizing accessibility features and creating products which are accessible out of the box. I agree that looking to Microsoft as a partner in developing more accessible workplace products, but I would really like to see that happen by way of Microsoft working to make it’s products more accessible on the Mac and iOS platforms and in, taking a page from Apple’s book, developing it’s own products to be accessible without relying on third-party products like JAWS. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 19:28:50 2018 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody J. Davis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 14:28:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From rene0373 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 20:41:43 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:41:43 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D4BF3E7-D9BE-47AC-8862-5AB030727114@gmail.com> I agree 100%, Cody. And as far as FS goes, given that they are a state and federal contractor, then it’s a question of compliance. Somehow the state and federal agencies need to get after FS to do it’s job and clean up its bugs. Microsoft should engineer its own products to be accessible, and should have done that in the first place. Why are we letting it depend on third-party providers to make its programs work? Best, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: I think another large piece of the problem with FS is that they have secured their place of prominence by working with federal, state, and local governments to be sure they remain more visiable over all other options. As employers, government entities seem to have the impression that JAWS is the only solution. As a resource provider, government entities, like my state’s Division of Services for the Blind, seem to only promote the use of JAWS as a suitable screen reader in the workplace. I’m sure FS has something to do with these perceptions. I believe much of FS’s grip on the market can be alleviated simply through education on alternative products. DSB should be giving me all of my options and my employer should be open to all the AT alternatives. I would love to see Microsoft putting more effort into accessibility, both in the Office suite of products and in Windows OS. They have done better, and I had hoped that Narrator would be much more comprehensive in Windows 10. I was soarly disappointed. Microsoft has yet to put in the effort that Apple has to make their products accessible. Something Else I like about Apple is they are normalizing accessibility features and creating products which are accessible out of the box. I agree that looking to Microsoft as a partner in developing more accessible workplace products, but I would really like to see that happen by way of Microsoft working to make it’s products more accessible on the Mac and iOS platforms and in, taking a page from Apple’s book, developing it’s own products to be accessible without relying on third-party products like JAWS. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From rene0373 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 21:04:15 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:04:15 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CA6CB85-CC51-4A1C-AE9E-A02B2BD088F1@gmail.com> Amen to that, Cody. Another thing I like about Apple, they have a bigger tool box for people with vision loss. And any Apple user can open it up and customize their own interface experience. They don’t have to identify as blind or pay extra bucks to make the adjustments they need. You can alert the type. You could increase the contrast. You can brighten the screen. You can reverse the image. You can have a “smart invert,“ that lets you look at a catalog and see what you want to buy the way everyone else sees it, pinching wide the image if you want to, while still having white type over a black screen. You can do the same thing with pictures sent as part of discovery. There are so many more features than I have just described, that you probably know about too, Cody. And while I am on the subject, Apple runs Office 365 apps. So if any employer wants to run Microsoft programs and do their work that way, should they get you a PC and then pay $900 plus to make it speak, paying another $500 or so every couple of years when FS upgrades, or should they get you a Mac, iMac, or iPad with everything built in for about $1000 or much less and call it good? I do like the file system on a PC, but the whole world is after Apple to make a comparable file system for its OS and iOS devices so we don’t have to cry in the wilderness. I think we need to get active as consumers. Happy holidays, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From rene0373 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 21:18:09 2018 From: rene0373 at gmail.com (Elizabeth Rene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:18:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6C0F945D-197E-45D9-8406-2D281FF5AEA0@gmail.com> Sorry, but I have to add a codicil to my last post and emphasize Cody‘s point about being liberated from keystrokes. Isn’t it wonderful to concentrate on law, to enjoy crafting the perfect sentence, to remembering a statute or case citation, or to focus on writing a contract that makes sense to its readers without having to stop and remember what keystroke does what? I love technology that gets out of its own way. Now merry Christmas, really. Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From b.s.spiry at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:45:04 2018 From: b.s.spiry at gmail.com (b.s.spiry at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 14:45:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> Greetings Maura. I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers). for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. Bill Bill Spiry Attorney at Law Spiry Law LLC (541) 600-3301 Bill at SpiryLaw.com Bill.spiry at gmail.com "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered email. Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Maura Kutnyak Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. > As to your questions: > 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. > 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your goals. > 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. > 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. > I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge. Go for it! >>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Paul Harpur >>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>> Senior Lecturer >>> >>> TC Beirne School of Law >>> The University of Queensland >>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>> >>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>> code: 00025B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientia ac Labore >>> >>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Hello blind law participants, >>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. >>> >>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>> >>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>> >>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>> >>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >> o.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com From rodalcidonis at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 01:55:46 2018 From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 20:55:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com><74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> Message-ID: <839AB506ABDA4D2AAA30EA6DE3716D39@LAPTOPD7H4OV38> Cody: I could not agree more with you. As long as FS continues to benefit from the perception of JAWS being the only viable screen reader in the government arena, very little will change in the quality of the product being offered on the market. When was the last time you truly had a real JAWS update? In the last 4 to 5 years or so, FS has mainly been adding and fixing bugs to the software and charging consumers an annual upgrade fee for the next version of the same thing. The so-called new features have been no more than a bunch of gimmicks offerd in the name of innovation. Rod Alcidonis, Esq. -----Original Message----- From: Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 2:13 PM To: Elizabeth Rene Cc: Cody J. Davis ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. I think another large piece of the problem with FS is that they have secured their place of prominence by working with federal, state, and local governments to be sure they remain more visiable over all other options. As employers, government entities seem to have the impression that JAWS is the only solution. As a resource provider, government entities, like my state’s Division of Services for the Blind, seem to only promote the use of JAWS as a suitable screen reader in the workplace. I’m sure FS has something to do with these perceptions. I believe much of FS’s grip on the market can be alleviated simply through education on alternative products. DSB should be giving me all of my options and my employer should be open to all the AT alternatives. I would love to see Microsoft putting more effort into accessibility, both in the Office suite of products and in Windows OS. They have done better, and I had hoped that Narrator would be much more comprehensive in Windows 10. I was soarly disappointed. Microsoft has yet to put in the effort that Apple has to make their products accessible. Something Else I like about Apple is they are normalizing accessibility features and creating products which are accessible out of the box. I agree that looking to Microsoft as a partner in developing more accessible workplace products, but I would really like to see that happen by way of Microsoft working to make it’s products more accessible on the Mac and iOS platforms and in, taking a page from Apple’s book, developing it’s own products to be accessible without relying on third-party products like JAWS. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and > services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and > responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements > with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t > we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet > market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not > Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law > students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind > Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the > cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal > action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary > accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply > technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player > to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and > VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. > After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft > came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each > update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But > Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be > decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the > workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and > become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On > the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never > figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It > sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll > have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always > preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have > found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to > improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The > problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in > the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS > at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS > because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the > leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve > their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind > users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s > voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines > become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of > a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to >> productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal >> employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals >> that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing >> and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the >> developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even >> magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. >> Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves >> captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more >> and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I >> buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on >> the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any >> forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step >> up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com From nmpbrat at aol.com Tue Dec 25 03:59:33 2018 From: nmpbrat at aol.com (nmpbrat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 03:59:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> All,This is a very interesting thread for me.  In some ways, I am not like Maura....I do not have children of my own.  However, I have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to law school.  Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable.  I am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the collegiate level.  I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting.   I guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done while still working?  Or does one need to plan on just doing law school and putting work aside for those few years?  Any advice on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread or privately.   Happy Holidays!Nicole -----Original Message----- From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: b.s.spiry Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Greetings Maura. I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart on this. You need to do it because it's  what is right for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers). for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this,  yeah, it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. Bill Bill Spiry Attorney at Law Spiry Law LLC (541) 600-3301 Bill at SpiryLaw.com Bill.spiry at gmail.com "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered email. Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and do intercept email communication.  By using email to communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Maura Kutnyak Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. > As to your questions: > 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. > 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your goals. > 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. > 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. > I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thank you Dr. Harpur.  While maybe not practical, your words ring true. No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the plunge.  Go for it! >>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University.  I will let others give more practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Paul Harpur >>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>> Senior Lecturer >>> >>> TC Beirne School of Law >>> The University of Queensland >>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>> >>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>> code: 00025B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientia ac Labore >>> >>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Hello blind law participants, >>>  I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. >>> >>>  I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>> >>>  My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what kinds of supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take?  I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>> >>>  I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>> >>>  Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to redirect. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >> o.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com From richard.welch.gs at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 17:37:12 2018 From: richard.welch.gs at gmail.com (Richard Welch) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 17:37:12 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> , <35D11990-28D9-4B80-98C3-915D4D6AA628@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Well, it may simply be a sound business choice from those who don’t know any better. Of course, what I am getting at is perception that when paying for a specialty product when service is needed you actually might get it as opposed to a free solution in which you might not. Best, Richard Welch Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 2:14 PM To: Elizabeth Rene Cc: Cody J. Davis; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. I think another large piece of the problem with FS is that they have secured their place of prominence by working with federal, state, and local governments to be sure they remain more visiable over all other options. As employers, government entities seem to have the impression that JAWS is the only solution. As a resource provider, government entities, like my state’s Division of Services for the Blind, seem to only promote the use of JAWS as a suitable screen reader in the workplace. I’m sure FS has something to do with these perceptions. I believe much of FS’s grip on the market can be alleviated simply through education on alternative products. DSB should be giving me all of my options and my employer should be open to all the AT alternatives. I would love to see Microsoft putting more effort into accessibility, both in the Office suite of products and in Windows OS. They have done better, and I had hoped that Narrator would be much more comprehensive in Windows 10. I was soarly disappointed. Microsoft has yet to put in the effort that Apple has to make their products accessible. Something Else I like about Apple is they are normalizing accessibility features and creating products which are accessible out of the box. I agree that looking to Microsoft as a partner in developing more accessible workplace products, but I would really like to see that happen by way of Microsoft working to make it’s products more accessible on the Mac and iOS platforms and in, taking a page from Apple’s book, developing it’s own products to be accessible without relying on third-party products like JAWS. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gmail.com From richard.welch.gs at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 17:43:35 2018 From: richard.welch.gs at gmail.com (Richard Welch) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 17:43:35 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <9CA6CB85-CC51-4A1C-AE9E-A02B2BD088F1@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> , <9CA6CB85-CC51-4A1C-AE9E-A02B2BD088F1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually from a technical standpoint the current file system on the Mac is far more stable in superior to the NTFS file system. You are far less likely to lose files and have corruption with Files in the current file system on the Mac. Absent what I said above I totally agree with your sentiments. RICHARD WELCH For some reason when I’m dictating my name always shows up in All caps. Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 4:05 PM To: Cody J. Davis Cc: Elizabeth Rene; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Amen to that, Cody. Another thing I like about Apple, they have a bigger tool box for people with vision loss. And any Apple user can open it up and customize their own interface experience. They don’t have to identify as blind or pay extra bucks to make the adjustments they need. You can alert the type. You could increase the contrast. You can brighten the screen. You can reverse the image. You can have a “smart invert,“ that lets you look at a catalog and see what you want to buy the way everyone else sees it, pinching wide the image if you want to, while still having white type over a black screen. You can do the same thing with pictures sent as part of discovery. There are so many more features than I have just described, that you probably know about too, Cody. And while I am on the subject, Apple runs Office 365 apps. So if any employer wants to run Microsoft programs and do their work that way, should they get you a PC and then pay $900 plus to make it speak, paying another $500 or so every couple of years when FS upgrades, or should they get you a Mac, iMac, or iPad with everything built in for about $1000 or much less and call it good? I do like the file system on a PC, but the whole world is after Apple to make a comparable file system for its OS and iOS devices so we don’t have to cry in the wilderness. I think we need to get active as consumers. Happy holidays, Elizabeth Elizabeth M René Attorney at Law WSBA #10710 KCBA #21824 rene0373 at gmail.com On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gmail.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Tue Dec 25 19:56:20 2018 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 12:56:20 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07f701d49c8b$e808e030$b81aa090$@com> Elizabeth, sadly, Freedom Scientific, VFO, Vispero or whatever other name I have missed, DOES NOT have any competition! It could be argued that Supernova is a competing screen reader; however, I doubt if it has such a large following here in the United States or elsewhere in the world aside from Britain; NVDA may be getting better, but when the need to earn a wage arises, not so sure it can match much up to Jaws yet. It may jolly well get there sooner rather than later, but that could be a rather long wait for many of us! Window-Eyes won't ever be resuscitated, unless, by a stroke of luck or the waving of some magical wand, its source code gets released to the public fora and any number of folks far smarter than I elect to play some ball with it and see what they can crank together. Personally, I look forward to the day and time when I can do everything on my Shiny smart toys and forget Windows altogether. With that, I will begin searching for compatible apps on the Android platform that can be deployed for use in legal and other business practices. I sure hope I'll be lucky if not in 2018, hopefully in 2019 and going forward! Merry Christmas to one and all and blessings to all! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 20:10:43 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 15:10:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <07f701d49c8b$e808e030$b81aa090$@com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <07f701d49c8b$e808e030$b81aa090$@com> Message-ID: <2095124D-7D08-4DDF-9F74-6C463504F2FD@gmail.com> I have had extremely good luck with NVDA for the last couple of years. I think it is easily as functional as JAWS in most settings. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 25, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw wrote: > > Elizabeth, sadly, Freedom Scientific, VFO, Vispero or whatever other name I > have missed, DOES NOT have any competition! It could be argued that > Supernova is a competing screen reader; however, I doubt if it has such a > large following here in the United States or elsewhere in the world aside > from Britain; NVDA may be getting better, but when the need to earn a wage > arises, not so sure it can match much up to Jaws yet. It may jolly well get > there sooner rather than later, but that could be a rather long wait for > many of us! Window-Eyes won't ever be resuscitated, unless, by a stroke of > luck or the waving of some magical wand, its source code gets released to > the public fora and any number of folks far smarter than I elect to play > some ball with it and see what they can crank together. > > Personally, I look forward to the day and time when I can do everything on > my Shiny smart toys and forget Windows altogether. With that, I will begin > searching for compatible apps on the Android platform that can be deployed > for use in legal and other business practices. I sure hope I'll be lucky if > not in 2018, hopefully in 2019 and going forward! Merry Christmas to one > and all and blessings to all! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Dec 25 20:32:55 2018 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 14:32:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <2095124D-7D08-4DDF-9F74-6C463504F2FD@gmail.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <07f701d49c8b$e808e030$b81aa090$@com> <2095124D-7D08-4DDF-9F74-6C463504F2FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not a lawyer (to the relief of lawyers and non-lawyers alike), nor do I often use Word, prefering to do most of my editing in Google Docs. However, I would suggest that pursuing NVDA compatibility with this feature is likely to be more fruitful in the short term, and will likely have a greater benefit in the long run. NVDA is free and open source, which means that, in a very real sense, you can truly own that software, unlike Jaws, which is only temporarily licensed to you. If, for example, you wished to fix the support of track changes in Jaws, your only recourse is to beg/threaten the folks at VFO to do so. However, with NVDA, you can first request that the developers at NVAccess fix it. If they refuse, you are not out of luck. Since it is open source, you have the option of hiring someone to fix it for you. I suspect that if we started giving money to NVAccess like we do to VFO, or Freedom Scientific, or whatever they're called these days, we would end up with a far better screen reader than we currently have. A screen reader that would not just work for the blind, but would also truly be owned by the blind. . Just look at what NVAccess has accomplished with only a fraction of the budget of the other screen reader venders. Aaron -- This message was sent from a mobile device > On Dec 25, 2018, at 14:10, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > I have had extremely good luck with NVDA for the last couple of years. I think it is easily as functional as JAWS in most settings. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 25, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Elizabeth, sadly, Freedom Scientific, VFO, Vispero or whatever other name I >> have missed, DOES NOT have any competition! It could be argued that >> Supernova is a competing screen reader; however, I doubt if it has such a >> large following here in the United States or elsewhere in the world aside >> from Britain; NVDA may be getting better, but when the need to earn a wage >> arises, not so sure it can match much up to Jaws yet. It may jolly well get >> there sooner rather than later, but that could be a rather long wait for >> many of us! Window-Eyes won't ever be resuscitated, unless, by a stroke of >> luck or the waving of some magical wand, its source code gets released to >> the public fora and any number of folks far smarter than I elect to play >> some ball with it and see what they can crank together. >> >> Personally, I look forward to the day and time when I can do everything on >> my Shiny smart toys and forget Windows altogether. With that, I will begin >> searching for compatible apps on the Android platform that can be deployed >> for use in legal and other business practices. I sure hope I'll be lucky if >> not in 2018, hopefully in 2019 and going forward! Merry Christmas to one >> and all and blessings to all! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cannona%40fireantproductions.com From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Tue Dec 25 20:49:11 2018 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 20:49:11 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <07f701d49c8b$e808e030$b81aa090$@com> <2095124D-7D08-4DDF-9F74-6C463504F2FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree! Fund the one we can own. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Cannon via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, 26 December 2018 6:33 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Aaron Cannon Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. I'm not a lawyer (to the relief of lawyers and non-lawyers alike), nor do I often use Word, prefering to do most of my editing in Google Docs. However, I would suggest that pursuing NVDA compatibility with this feature is likely to be more fruitful in the short term, and will likely have a greater benefit in the long run. NVDA is free and open source, which means that, in a very real sense, you can truly own that software, unlike Jaws, which is only temporarily licensed to you. If, for example, you wished to fix the support of track changes in Jaws, your only recourse is to beg/threaten the folks at VFO to do so. However, with NVDA, you can first request that the developers at NVAccess fix it. If they refuse, you are not out of luck. Since it is open source, you have the option of hiring someone to fix it for you. I suspect that if we started giving money to NVAccess like we do to VFO, or Freedom Scientific, or whatever they're called these days, we would end up with a far b! etter screen reader than we currently have. A screen reader that would not just work for the blind, but would also truly be owned by the blind. . Just look at what NVAccess has accomplished with only a fraction of the budget of the other screen reader venders. Aaron -- This message was sent from a mobile device > On Dec 25, 2018, at 14:10, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > I have had extremely good luck with NVDA for the last couple of years. I think it is easily as functional as JAWS in most settings. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 25, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Elizabeth, sadly, Freedom Scientific, VFO, Vispero or whatever other >> name I have missed, DOES NOT have any competition! It could be >> argued that Supernova is a competing screen reader; however, I doubt >> if it has such a large following here in the United States or >> elsewhere in the world aside from Britain; NVDA may be getting >> better, but when the need to earn a wage arises, not so sure it can >> match much up to Jaws yet. It may jolly well get there sooner rather >> than later, but that could be a rather long wait for many of us! >> Window-Eyes won't ever be resuscitated, unless, by a stroke of luck >> or the waving of some magical wand, its source code gets released to >> the public fora and any number of folks far smarter than I elect to play some ball with it and see what they can crank together. >> >> Personally, I look forward to the day and time when I can do >> everything on my Shiny smart toys and forget Windows altogether. >> With that, I will begin searching for compatible apps on the Android >> platform that can be deployed for use in legal and other business >> practices. I sure hope I'll be lucky if not in 2018, hopefully in >> 2019 and going forward! Merry Christmas to one and all and blessings to all! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cannona%40firean > tproductions.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 22:35:39 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (Kelby Carlson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 17:35:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I will explain why at some length. First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several months trying to get accommodations. If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you are fabulous at networking. Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the outline. If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a summer associate position between your second and third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, but you do get several government internships and maintain decent grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will have already begun applying your second year of law school because most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not go. In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This video is essentially accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will not. Best, Kelby Carlson On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: > All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not like > Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last few > years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet of > my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would be > considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in > working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I > am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a > masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current > profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have done > online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the > collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the > idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I > guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done > while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school and > putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything else > you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread or > privately. > Happy Holidays!Nicole > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: b.s.spiry > Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Greetings Maura. > > I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be > telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 > with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, > couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was > Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it > and I do not regret my decision. > > So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart > on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for > anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who > will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without > sight (including other blind lawyers). > > for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this > list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to be > damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get > around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in > you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got > the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your > heart. > > My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. > > Bill > > > Bill Spiry > Attorney at Law > Spiry Law LLC > (541) 600-3301 > Bill at SpiryLaw.com > Bill.spiry at gmail.com > > "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer > > Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not > create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an > acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client > agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is > (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN > NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only > for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the > intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it > to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or > distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email > message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know > and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your > computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered > email. > > > Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and > do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with Spiry > law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information > may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via > BlindLaw > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a > separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just > know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >> As to your questions: >> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of > confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers > the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the > drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids > that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I > took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war > of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept > the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All > of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who > are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have > an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the > ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more > quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the > grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to > get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong > with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your > goals. >> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll > need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real > difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting > getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L > staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who > thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. > But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other > than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you > are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on > Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. > Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were > other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these > friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have > otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. > No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. > Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>> >>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the > plunge. Go for it! >>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished > Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical > advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International > Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>> Senior Lecturer >>>> >>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>> The University of Queensland >>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>> >>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>> code: 00025B >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>> >>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the > addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of > Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any > transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is > prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and > notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do > not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of > interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point > the way. >>>> >>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a > few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has > grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people > who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to > the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>> >>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make > my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of > supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test > should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school > started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take > the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not > sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>> >>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are > there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who > has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>> >>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more > questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this > line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to > redirect. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>> o.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > -- Kelby Carlson From steve.jacobson at visi.com Tue Dec 25 23:10:59 2018 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 17:10:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e201d49ca7$191c8d00$4b55a700$@visi.com> Cody and others, There are several points I would like to respond to, but I need to make sure my background and my reason for doing so are clear. First, I do not work for Freedom Scientific or Vispero in any way. I have been a long time user of Windows software because that is what my employer required, however I was mostly a Window-Eyes user rather than a JAWS user. As you may know, Window-Eyes was purchased by Freedom Scientific as it was part of the company at that point that sold ZoomText, and Freedom Scientific wanted ZoomText. They discontinued the development of Window-Eyes. I have only a very slight experience with the MAC, but have been an iPhone user for some five or six years now. First, while I can't say to what degree JAWS might be complacent because of the market share they have had for a long time, they still do feel some pressure. NVDA has taken away some people who may have been JAWS users at home shrinking their base some. Also, it is no secret that Microsoft is feeling pressure to have a more powerful screen reader built into Windows because of what Apple has done on the MAC and in IOS on those devices. Those who have Windows 10 version 1809 will find that Narrator has gotten a good deal more powerful. Microsoft has been clear that they want to continue to support other screen readers, but we could see Narrator become more useful to the serious user in the future. Narrator can already be used in Windows repair modes where screen readers did not work in the past under Windows. Some of this functionality has been part of Apples platform for some time. The bottom line, at least to this paragraph, is that there are pressures being felt by JAWS. This is likely partly why they have just introduced a cheaper purchase plan for home users. Therefore, I believe that customers can have an effect on them. In addition, Microsoft is working pretty hard to keep and increase their use in corporations. Whether they succeed in the long run or not, I would not count on Apple computers being suddenly the default computer in the workplace real soon. Anything could happen in the long run, though. I don't pretend to know what that might look like. >From what people have said here and from other things I have read, Word on the MAC works better in many ways than does Word in Windows. One might assume this is all because of VoiceOver, but that isn't the case. Those of you who have used MACs for a while know that there was a significant period of time when Word did not work at all with VoiceOver. This was not because VoiceOver didn't do its job, it had to do with how Microsoft wrote Word for the MAC, with the core likely being written before VoiceOver even existed. The reason Word works better now is that Microsoft basically had to write it over from scratch, for accessibility reasons and for other reasons. In effect, it is relatively new software. Although Word for Windows has received a lot of updates, it has been added to and modified but never completely written over. At this point, it is not clear to what degree the track changes issue is a JAWS problem and to what degree it is a problem with the information Microsoft makes available. Starting by approaching JAWS makes good sense, but the fact that people here say NVDA works better, without saying it works perfectly, makes me think that Microsoft may also play a role in this problem. It therefore clearly needs some attention. Those of us involved in technology need to understand what other users, such as those of you here, are dealing with so we can add our voices to the voices of others to fix those things that have the largest impact on employment situations. As blind people, we are more dependent than ever on good software access to perform our jobs. Finally, I would caution making comparisons between the Apple platform and the Windows platform. They are very different. The way accessibility has evolved in those two cases is also very different. The tools that are needed in those environments are therefore very different as well. I could write another long note on that, but will spare all of you that given this note is probably too long. As has been stated, Apple has created very clear guidelines and tools to make applications accessible, and they deserve credit for that. Over the past ten years, there have been pretty good guidelines on the Windows platform as well, but to be sure software is accessible, it had to work well with at least three different screen readers, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and NVDA. The same accessibility guidelines are not implemented in the same way in all three screen readers. In the case of Apple, there are few tools that can be used to make software that is not accessible be accessible. Please note that I did not say there were none, but there are not as many. Apples operating systems are more "closed," meaning there is less capability for a screen reader to go in and find information that the software developer did not make accessible. In Windows, much of the accessibility in the past came about by using other ways for our screen readers to get information from Windows. This is especially true of JAWS and Window-Eyes which have been working in Windows since the mid 90's. Microsoft is now closing some of these openings because they also created security risks, so this difference will disappear over time. However, this means that JAWS will have more ways of doing things to take advantage of some of the older ways of getting information. I use some software for my job that worked well with JAWS and Window-Eyes that did not work with NVDA, for example. This does not mean that JAWS is better than VoiceOver, nor does it mean VoiceOver is better than JAWS. They are different in order to do their jobs in different environments. The fact is, though, that a particular environment might fit a person's needs and that could be Windows or MAC. I should mention that JAWS does have the ability to search for a command now. I don't know if it is as efficient as ChromeVox or VoiceOver, but it has been a part of the last couple of versions of JAWS. Web browsing is in some ways a bit of a pain right now. As some of you know better than I, there are differences between how various web browsers handle particular web pages even without accessibility in the mix. In addition, web browsers don't implement accessibility in exactly the same way, either. There are cases where Safari or Chrome with VoiceOver handle particular pages better than anything does in Windows. There are also cases where a page works all right with Internet Explorer but not well with other browsers. This is probably getting less true, but my employer still requires the use of Internet Explorer for all sites within the company. This is still true of some other corporations as well. This means that for those situations, substituting an Apple computer for a Windows computer is not a practical solution. This also means that some of the additional information JAWS gives some of us about web pages is very useful, but I'm not trying to say that is necessarily useful to everybody. Right now, I am struggling some to get a Windows Update to run. I know from my daughter's experience with her MAC that Apple very rarely has problems like that. That, in itself, might be a reason for many to buy a MAC. Again, though, this happens partly because of differences that are both good and bad. Windows tries to run on many different brands of computers with all kinds of possible hardware. On the apple platform, Apple exercises a good deal of control over the hardware that is used to run their operating systems. I am not certain that there even is a commercial product that runs the MAC operating system with VoiceOver other than Apple. This means that Apple knows very well which hardware will be used to run their operating systems while Microsoft has far less control. The idea of a Microsoft computer is really a pretty new one. In summary, there are a couple of points here. First, people need to figure out what feels right and what meets their needs. Apple products are going to be a good choice for many people. On the other hand, as we work to resolve the challenges we face, we have to understand why there are differences to some degree and also how to make the change happen that we need. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 1:29 PM To: Elizabeth Rene Cc: Cody J. Davis ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SKQ%2F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%2FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%2BA%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fcjdavis9193%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=pBW8r8V7f6wy0VcS8SsvCJbhGLN63RkpWEJ1iVGp8x0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SKQ%2F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%2FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%2BA%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SeUMFV0h0ANqNEwRf%2F06mVCNv%2BKS6Mz0TR8YpjH7qJY%3D&reserved=0 From mnowicki4 at icloud.com Wed Dec 26 03:36:32 2018 From: mnowicki4 at icloud.com (Michal Nowicki) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 21:36:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <00e201d49ca7$191c8d00$4b55a700$@visi.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> <00e201d49ca7$191c8d00$4b55a700$@visi.com> Message-ID: Steve, You hit the nail on the head in two important ways. First, no single platform, screen reader, or web browser is the perfect solution for every task. Although NVDA and Narrator continue to improve, powerful productivity features like text analyzer and proofreading speech and sounds schemes, to name a few, make JAWS a highly desirable screen reader in the workplace. Nevertheless, NVDA beats JAWS in certain areas, such as the Windows 10 mail app and in keeping up with the rapidly evolving technological landscape. Moreover, although I recently set Chrome as my default web browser for Windows because support for Internet Explorer is rapidly declining, I still use IE to buy Amtrak tickets, because on Amtrak’s dynamic assistive site, I cannot select departure and arrival cities from the list of search results using JAWS in Chrome. Second, I cannot agree more that we cannot automatically blame FreedomScientific for all accessibility bugs in Office and Windows. Since Windows 10 came out, Microsoft has been rolling out major updates to the system approximately every six months, and Office 365 is updated even more frequently: a phenomenon we have never seen before. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for third-party screen reader developers to keep up with these constant changes. That being said, it helps tremendously that Freedomscientific now collaborates more closely with Microsoft than ever before, but I am afraid that new bugs will nonetheless continue to emerge from time to time. This is why we need to report issues as soon as we discover them. Best Wishes for the Holidays, Michal Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 5:12 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Cody and others, There are several points I would like to respond to, but I need to make sure my background and my reason for doing so are clear. First, I do not work for Freedom Scientific or Vispero in any way. I have been a long time user of Windows software because that is what my employer required, however I was mostly a Window-Eyes user rather than a JAWS user. As you may know, Window-Eyes was purchased by Freedom Scientific as it was part of the company at that point that sold ZoomText, and Freedom Scientific wanted ZoomText. They discontinued the development of Window-Eyes. I have only a very slight experience with the MAC, but have been an iPhone user for some five or six years now. First, while I can't say to what degree JAWS might be complacent because of the market share they have had for a long time, they still do feel some pressure. NVDA has taken away some people who may have been JAWS users at home shrinking their base some. Also, it is no secret that Microsoft is feeling pressure to have a more powerful screen reader built into Windows because of what Apple has done on the MAC and in IOS on those devices. Those who have Windows 10 version 1809 will find that Narrator has gotten a good deal more powerful. Microsoft has been clear that they want to continue to support other screen readers, but we could see Narrator become more useful to the serious user in the future. Narrator can already be used in Windows repair modes where screen readers did not work in the past under Windows. Some of this functionality has been part of Apples platform for some time. The bottom line, at least to this paragraph, is that there are pressures being felt by JAWS. This is likely partly why they have just introduced a cheaper purchase plan for home users. Therefore, I believe that customers can have an effect on them. In addition, Microsoft is working pretty hard to keep and increase their use in corporations. Whether they succeed in the long run or not, I would not count on Apple computers being suddenly the default computer in the workplace real soon. Anything could happen in the long run, though. I don't pretend to know what that might look like. >From what people have said here and from other things I have read, Word on the MAC works better in many ways than does Word in Windows. One might assume this is all because of VoiceOver, but that isn't the case. Those of you who have used MACs for a while know that there was a significant period of time when Word did not work at all with VoiceOver. This was not because VoiceOver didn't do its job, it had to do with how Microsoft wrote Word for the MAC, with the core likely being written before VoiceOver even existed. The reason Word works better now is that Microsoft basically had to write it over from scratch, for accessibility reasons and for other reasons. In effect, it is relatively new software. Although Word for Windows has received a lot of updates, it has been added to and modified but never completely written over. At this point, it is not clear to what degree the track changes issue is a JAWS problem and to what degree it is a problem with the information Microsoft makes available. Starting by approaching JAWS makes good sense, but the fact that people here say NVDA works better, without saying it works perfectly, makes me think that Microsoft may also play a role in this problem. It therefore clearly needs some attention. Those of us involved in technology need to understand what other users, such as those of you here, are dealing with so we can add our voices to the voices of others to fix those things that have the largest impact on employment situations. As blind people, we are more dependent than ever on good software access to perform our jobs. Finally, I would caution making comparisons between the Apple platform and the Windows platform. They are very different. The way accessibility has evolved in those two cases is also very different. The tools that are needed in those environments are therefore very different as well. I could write another long note on that, but will spare all of you that given this note is probably too long. As has been stated, Apple has created very clear guidelines and tools to make applications accessible, and they deserve credit for that. Over the past ten years, there have been pretty good guidelines on the Windows platform as well, but to be sure software is accessible, it had to work well with at least three different screen readers, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and NVDA. The same accessibility guidelines are not implemented in the same way in all three screen readers. In the case of Apple, there are few tools that can be used to make software that is not accessible be accessible. Please note that I did not say there were none, but there are not as many. Apples operating systems are more "closed," meaning there is less capability for a screen reader to go in and find information that the software developer did not make accessible. In Windows, much of the accessibility in the past came about by using other ways for our screen readers to get information from Windows. This is especially true of JAWS and Window-Eyes which have been working in Windows since the mid 90's. Microsoft is now closing some of these openings because they also created security risks, so this difference will disappear over time. However, this means that JAWS will have more ways of doing things to take advantage of some of the older ways of getting information. I use some software for my job that worked well with JAWS and Window-Eyes that did not work with NVDA, for example. This does not mean that JAWS is better than VoiceOver, nor does it mean VoiceOver is better than JAWS. They are different in order to do their jobs in different environments. The fact is, though, that a particular environment might fit a person's needs and that could be Windows or MAC. I should mention that JAWS does have the ability to search for a command now. I don't know if it is as efficient as ChromeVox or VoiceOver, but it has been a part of the last couple of versions of JAWS. Web browsing is in some ways a bit of a pain right now. As some of you know better than I, there are differences between how various web browsers handle particular web pages even without accessibility in the mix. In addition, web browsers don't implement accessibility in exactly the same way, either. There are cases where Safari or Chrome with VoiceOver handle particular pages better than anything does in Windows. There are also cases where a page works all right with Internet Explorer but not well with other browsers. This is probably getting less true, but my employer still requires the use of Internet Explorer for all sites within the company. This is still true of some other corporations as well. This means that for those situations, substituting an Apple computer for a Windows computer is not a practical solution. This also means that some of the additional information JAWS gives some of us about web pages is very useful, but I'm not trying to say that is necessarily useful to everybody. Right now, I am struggling some to get a Windows Update to run. I know from my daughter's experience with her MAC that Apple very rarely has problems like that. That, in itself, might be a reason for many to buy a MAC. Again, though, this happens partly because of differences that are both good and bad. Windows tries to run on many different brands of computers with all kinds of possible hardware. On the apple platform, Apple exercises a good deal of control over the hardware that is used to run their operating systems. I am not certain that there even is a commercial product that runs the MAC operating system with VoiceOver other than Apple. This means that Apple knows very well which hardware will be used to run their operating systems while Microsoft has far less control. The idea of a Microsoft computer is really a pretty new one. In summary, there are a couple of points here. First, people need to figure out what feels right and what meets their needs. Apple products are going to be a good choice for many people. On the other hand, as we work to resolve the challenges we face, we have to understand why there are differences to some degree and also how to make the change happen that we need. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 1:29 PM To: Elizabeth Rene Cc: Cody J. Davis ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SKQ%2F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%2FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%2BA%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fcjdavis9193%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=pBW8r8V7f6wy0VcS8SsvCJbhGLN63RkpWEJ1iVGp8x0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SKQ%2F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%2FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%2BA%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636812766181096592&sdata=SeUMFV0h0ANqNEwRf%2F06mVCNv%2BKS6Mz0TR8YpjH7qJY%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mnowicki4%40icloud.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed Dec 26 04:04:07 2018 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 22:04:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. In-Reply-To: <20181226033811596@spamfilter-1.visi.com> References: <86BB541A-ADC5-4EE2-8CA9-F8A9AFF3430D@gmail.com> <74B39ECC-F232-4CEF-8C35-B678AE3955B2@gmail.com> <00e201d49ca7$191c8d00$4b55a700$@visi.com> <20181226033811596@spamfilter-1.visi.com> Message-ID: <00ec01d49cd0$0c5fe9d0$251fbd70$@visi.com> Michal, Thank you. Please let me add that particularly those who are familiar with NVDA should also push for changes there, I agree with Aaron on that. We shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket, though, so working with both screen readers seems a wise approach to me. Happy holidays, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Michal Nowicki via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 9:37 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Michal Nowicki Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Steve, You hit the nail on the head in two important ways. First, no single platform, screen reader, or web browser is the perfect solution for every task. Although NVDA and Narrator continue to improve, powerful productivity features like text analyzer and proofreading speech and sounds schemes, to name a few, make JAWS a highly desirable screen reader in the workplace. Nevertheless, NVDA beats JAWS in certain areas, such as the Windows 10 mail app and in keeping up with the rapidly evolving technological landscape. Moreover, although I recently set Chrome as my default web browser for Windows because support for Internet Explorer is rapidly declining, I still use IE to buy Amtrak tickets, because on Amtrak’s dynamic assistive site, I cannot select departure and arrival cities from the list of search results using JAWS in Chrome. Second, I cannot agree more that we cannot automatically blame FreedomScientific for all accessibility bugs in Office and Windows. Since Windows 10 came out, Microsoft has been rolling out major updates to the system approximately every six months, and Office 365 is updated even more frequently: a phenomenon we have never seen before. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for third-party screen reader developers to keep up with these constant changes. That being said, it helps tremendously that Freedomscientific now collaborates more closely with Microsoft than ever before, but I am afraid that new bugs will nonetheless continue to emerge from time to time. This is why we need to report issues as soon as we discover them. Best Wishes for the Holidays, Michal Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 5:12 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Steve Jacobson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Cody and others, There are several points I would like to respond to, but I need to make sure my background and my reason for doing so are clear. First, I do not work for Freedom Scientific or Vispero in any way. I have been a long time user of Windows software because that is what my employer required, however I was mostly a Window-Eyes user rather than a JAWS user. As you may know, Window-Eyes was purchased by Freedom Scientific as it was part of the company at that point that sold ZoomText, and Freedom Scientific wanted ZoomText. They discontinued the development of Window-Eyes. I have only a very slight experience with the MAC, but have been an iPhone user for some five or six years now. First, while I can't say to what degree JAWS might be complacent because of the market share they have had for a long time, they still do feel some pressure. NVDA has taken away some people who may have been JAWS users at home shrinking their base some. Also, it is no secret that Microsoft is feeling pressure to have a more powerful screen reader built into Windows because of what Apple has done on the MAC and in IOS on those devices. Those who have Windows 10 version 1809 will find that Narrator has gotten a good deal more powerful. Microsoft has been clear that they want to continue to support other screen readers, but we could see Narrator become more useful to the serious user in the future. Narrator can already be used in Windows repair modes where screen readers did not work in the past under Windows. Some of this functionality has been part of Apples platform for some time. The bottom line, at least to this paragraph, is that there are pressures being felt by JAWS. This is likely partly why they have just introduced a cheaper purchase plan for home users. Therefore, I believe that customers can have an effect on them. In addition, Microsoft is working pretty hard to keep and increase their use in corporations. Whether they succeed in the long run or not, I would not count on Apple computers being suddenly the default computer in the workplace real soon. Anything could happen in the long run, though. I don't pretend to know what that might look like. >From what people have said here and from other things I have read, Word on the MAC works better in many ways than does Word in Windows. One might assume this is all because of VoiceOver, but that isn't the case. Those of you who have used MACs for a while know that there was a significant period of time when Word did not work at all with VoiceOver. This was not because VoiceOver didn't do its job, it had to do with how Microsoft wrote Word for the MAC, with the core likely being written before VoiceOver even existed. The reason Word works better now is that Microsoft basically had to write it over from scratch, for accessibility reasons and for other reasons. In effect, it is relatively new software. Although Word for Windows has received a lot of updates, it has been added to and modified but never completely written over. At this point, it is not clear to what degree the track changes issue is a JAWS problem and to what degree it is a problem with the information Microsoft makes available. Starting by approaching JAWS makes good sense, but the fact that people here say NVDA works better, without saying it works perfectly, makes me think that Microsoft may also play a role in this problem. It therefore clearly needs some attention. Those of us involved in technology need to understand what other users, such as those of you here, are dealing with so we can add our voices to the voices of others to fix those things that have the largest impact on employment situations. As blind people, we are more dependent than ever on good software access to perform our jobs. Finally, I would caution making comparisons between the Apple platform and the Windows platform. They are very different. The way accessibility has evolved in those two cases is also very different. The tools that are needed in those environments are therefore very different as well. I could write another long note on that, but will spare all of you that given this note is probably too long. As has been stated, Apple has created very clear guidelines and tools to make applications accessible, and they deserve credit for that. Over the past ten years, there have been pretty good guidelines on the Windows platform as well, but to be sure software is accessible, it had to work well with at least three different screen readers, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and NVDA. The same accessibility guidelines are not implemented in the same way in all three screen readers. In the case of Apple, there are few tools that can be used to make software that is not accessible be accessible. Please note that I did not say there were none, but there are not as many. Apples operating systems are more "closed," meaning there is less capability for a screen reader to go in and find information that the software developer did not make accessible. In Windows, much of the accessibility in the past came about by using other ways for our screen readers to get information from Windows. This is especially true of JAWS and Window-Eyes which have been working in Windows since the mid 90's. Microsoft is now closing some of these openings because they also created security risks, so this difference will disappear over time. However, this means that JAWS will have more ways of doing things to take advantage of some of the older ways of getting information. I use some software for my job that worked well with JAWS and Window-Eyes that did not work with NVDA, for example. This does not mean that JAWS is better than VoiceOver, nor does it mean VoiceOver is better than JAWS. They are different in order to do their jobs in different environments. The fact is, though, that a particular environment might fit a person's needs and that could be Windows or MAC. I should mention that JAWS does have the ability to search for a command now. I don't know if it is as efficient as ChromeVox or VoiceOver, but it has been a part of the last couple of versions of JAWS. Web browsing is in some ways a bit of a pain right now. As some of you know better than I, there are differences between how various web browsers handle particular web pages even without accessibility in the mix. In addition, web browsers don't implement accessibility in exactly the same way, either. There are cases where Safari or Chrome with VoiceOver handle particular pages better than anything does in Windows. There are also cases where a page works all right with Internet Explorer but not well with other browsers. This is probably getting less true, but my employer still requires the use of Internet Explorer for all sites within the company. This is still true of some other corporations as well. This means that for those situations, substituting an Apple computer for a Windows computer is not a practical solution. This also means that some of the additional information JAWS gives some of us about web pages is very useful, but I'm not trying to say that is necessarily useful to everybody. Right now, I am struggling some to get a Windows Update to run. I know from my daughter's experience with her MAC that Apple very rarely has problems like that. That, in itself, might be a reason for many to buy a MAC. Again, though, this happens partly because of differences that are both good and bad. Windows tries to run on many different brands of computers with all kinds of possible hardware. On the apple platform, Apple exercises a good deal of control over the hardware that is used to run their operating systems. I am not certain that there even is a commercial product that runs the MAC operating system with VoiceOver other than Apple. This means that Apple knows very well which hardware will be used to run their operating systems while Microsoft has far less control. The idea of a Microsoft computer is really a pretty new one. In summary, there are a couple of points here. First, people need to figure out what feels right and what meets their needs. Apple products are going to be a good choice for many people. On the other hand, as we work to resolve the challenges we face, we have to understand why there are differences to some degree and also how to make the change happen that we need. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 1:29 PM To: Elizabeth Rene Cc: Cody J. Davis ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc. Something I forgot to mention in my last reply: I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene wrote: > > Dear Cody and all, > Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services? > When was the last time it asked our employers to do that? > When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies? > It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches. > It is serving itself rather than its market. > “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?” > They’ve come to believe their own press. > And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market. > But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor. > I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle. > It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose. > We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new. > Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider. > A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS. > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth M René > Attorney at Law > WSBA #10710 > KCBA #21824 > rene0373 at gmail.com > > On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis wrote: > > I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. > > > With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. > > > FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to? > > NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. > > Best, > Cody Davis > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Dear Listmates, >> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement. >> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage. >> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust. >> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will. >> Thanks, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth M René >> Attorney at Law >> WSBA #10710 >> KCBA #21824 >> rene0373 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fnfbnet.org%252Fmailman%252Flistinfo%252Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%26data%3D02%257C01%257C%257C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%257C1%257C0%257C636812766181096592%26sdata%3DSKQ%252F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%252FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%252BA%253D%26reserved%3D0&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=KxhNJDZCV2IRx67WrBZByXMBAfJ5BK93kNS1kgenw0E%3D&reserved=0 >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fnfbnet.org%252Fmailman%252Foptions%252Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%252Fcjdavis9193%252540gmail.com%26data%3D02%257C01%257C%257C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%257C1%257C0%257C636812766181096592%26sdata%3DpBW8r8V7f6wy0VcS8SsvCJbhGLN63RkpWEJ1iVGp8x0%253D%26reserved%3D0&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=Du4ZAgbI8wHbw1I35cY77pFWGXFKcxCxbI4ROCe%2F9JI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fnfbnet.org%252Fmailman%252Flistinfo%252Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%26data%3D02%257C01%257C%257C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%257C1%257C0%257C636812766181096592%26sdata%3DSKQ%252F0o7RUEkx3C6sDIyl%252FWjPyUOY9wcjYG0uWH0PE%252BA%253D%26reserved%3D0&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=KxhNJDZCV2IRx67WrBZByXMBAfJ5BK93kNS1kgenw0E%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fnfbnet.org%252Fmailman%252Foptions%252Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%252Fsteve.jacobson%252540visi.com%26data%3D02%257C01%257C%257C68b920131b2641143a5b08d669d63bf6%257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%257C1%257C0%257C636812766181096592%26sdata%3DSeUMFV0h0ANqNEwRf%252F06mVCNv%252BKS6Mz0TR8YpjH7qJY%253D%26reserved%3D0&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=8%2FtpVFZfl0bjXGIxoFcz7kPybBZD7%2FUFkGQ8sEYvgdY%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=AcLPH8zKEfFSnV1M5OIE0tERnVhenwuyxYZwEId0EvY%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fmnowicki4%2540icloud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=KmTLdUYIn8xa59%2B6hi%2FKiy6ucmbRRQ0c4YLLV%2FoL60I%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=AcLPH8zKEfFSnV1M5OIE0tERnVhenwuyxYZwEId0EvY%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindlaw_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.jacobson%2540visi.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05482c2e22a34112ccdd08d66ae390f0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813922951734954&sdata=5vfLjWOhj5%2FHy7gIkEQTHziUAIuUV2xn3zi6eSrL5EE%3D&reserved=0 From jtfetter at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:05:59 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 10:05:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. A few points: 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process   knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is just about every other intense form of career preparation. 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now accepts the GRE. 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that school off and move on. On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very > specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I > will explain why at some length. > > First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least > $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to > attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There > are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't > that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can > add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a > state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your > vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you > envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a > considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very > difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. > > Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were > asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not > familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect > they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best > chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and > your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with > one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that > self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is > required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered > for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations > even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and > better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with > some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the > LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to > study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several > months trying to get accommodations. > > If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a > spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, > you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of > Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 > schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of > knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law > school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably > accrue during your studies. > > If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First > of all, you will be getting a three year education that should > probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your > entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, > all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. > This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, > you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently > over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about > trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he > has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not > in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that > will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you > are fabulous at networking. > > Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are > an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited > time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to > maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is > extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your > exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, > however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the > difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the > outline. > > If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is > possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even > more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never > be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical > errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote > interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) > > So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience > that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who > really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. > > Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law > school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the > summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your > potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are > extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get > the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an > internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is > harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that > pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a > summer associate position between your second and third years of > school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to > arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't > extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. > > Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, > but you do get several government internships and maintain decent > grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will > then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will > probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from > almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will > have already begun applying your second year of law school because > most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious > firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their > resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. > Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law > students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will > perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will > get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have > managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends > will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had > obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very > rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic > when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a > year than my wife who works as a nanny. > > So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get > into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? > What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot > answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan > your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the > time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a > potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that > you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and > procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law > school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not > go. > > In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is > basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools > will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain > their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying > to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and > it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal > profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This > video is essentially accurate: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs > > I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will > be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably > (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I > feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will > not. > > Best, > > Kelby Carlson > > > > On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not like >> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last few >> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet of >> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would be >> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I >> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have done >> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school and >> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything else >> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread or >> privately. >> Happy Holidays!Nicole >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: b.s.spiry >> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> Greetings Maura. >> >> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, >> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it >> and I do not regret my decision. >> >> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart >> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >> sight (including other blind lawyers). >> >> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this >> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to be >> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in >> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got >> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >> heart. >> >> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >> >> Bill >> >> >> Bill Spiry >> Attorney at Law >> Spiry Law LLC >> (541) 600-3301 >> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >> >> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer >> >> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is >> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN >> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only >> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the >> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it >> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know >> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >> email. >> >> >> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and >> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with Spiry >> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information >> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>> As to your questions: >>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids >> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war >> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept >> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All >> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who >> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have >> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more >> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to >> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >> goals. >>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real >> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L >> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. >> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other >> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on >> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. >> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. >> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the >> plunge. Go for it! >>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical >> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>> >>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>> >>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>> code: 00025B >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>> >>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do >> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of >> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point >> the way. >>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a >> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people >> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make >> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test >> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school >> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take >> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not >> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are >> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this >> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >> redirect. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>> o.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 15:59:10 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (Kelby Carlson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 10:59:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any more rational. Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate information before making that sort of decision. On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question > is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school > is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. > > A few points: > > 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs > for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application > process   knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got > an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and > landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired > ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went > and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. > > 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to > my knowledge. > > 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. > > 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. > > 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > accepts the GRE. > > 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside > of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. > But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking > salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. > > 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement > numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that > school off and move on. > > On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >> will explain why at some length. >> >> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a >> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >> >> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >> months trying to get accommodations. >> >> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >> accrue during your studies. >> >> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >> are fabulous at networking. >> >> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >> outline. >> >> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >> >> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >> >> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >> summer associate position between your second and third years of >> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >> >> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >> >> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >> go. >> >> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >> video is essentially accurate: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >> >> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >> not. >> >> Best, >> >> Kelby Carlson >> >> >> >> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not >>> like >>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last >>> few >>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet >>> of >>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would >>> be >>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. >>> I >>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have >>> done >>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school >>> and >>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything >>> else >>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread >>> or >>> privately. >>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Greetings Maura. >>> >>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, >>> married, >>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for >>> it >>> and I do not regret my decision. >>> >>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your >>> heart >>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>> >>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on >>> this >>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to >>> be >>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it >>> in >>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've >>> got >>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>> heart. >>> >>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> Bill Spiry >>> Attorney at Law >>> Spiry Law LLC >>> (541) 600-3301 >>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>> >>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>> Weihenmayer >>> >>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which >>> is >>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY >>> IN >>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended >>> only >>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not >>> the >>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering >>> it >>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us >>> know >>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>> email. >>> >>> >>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can >>> and >>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with >>> Spiry >>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged >>> information >>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak >>> via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>> As to your questions: >>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study >>> aids >>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a >>> war >>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that >>> accept >>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. >>>> All >>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people >>> who >>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to >>> have >>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and >>> more >>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is >>> to >>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing >>> wrong >>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >>> goals. >>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only >>> real >>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a >>> 2L >>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at >>> will. >>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there >>>> other >>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still >>> on >>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" >>> path. >>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the >>> moment. >>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take >>>>>> the >>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>> practical >>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>> >>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>> >>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>> >>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email >>> do >>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount >>>>>> of >>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please >>> point >>> the way. >>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of >>>>>> a >>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few >>> people >>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly >>>>>> make >>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance >>> test >>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law >>> school >>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to >>> take >>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am >>> not >>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, >>>>>> are >>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if >>> this >>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>> redirect. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>> o.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > -- Kelby Carlson From montascarlos267 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 16:34:34 2018 From: montascarlos267 at gmail.com (carlos Montas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 11:34:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2326FF6E-7CBC-457C-8023-8FC2FDB7A233@gmail.com> Good morning I have been reading this thread and I would like to say that I have been interested in attending law school. Especially because I am working for the protection and advocacy organization for persons with disabilities in the State of Florida. Do many of you believe that it is possible to attend law school parttime? Would the fact that I am working for an attorney currently help me in terms of my future job prospects as an attorney? Thanks so much. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. > > A few points: > > 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. > > 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. > > 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is just about every other intense form of career preparation. > > 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. > > 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now accepts the GRE. > > 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. > > 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off and move on. > >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >> will explain why at some length. >> >> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a >> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >> >> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >> months trying to get accommodations. >> >> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >> accrue during your studies. >> >> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >> are fabulous at networking. >> >> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >> outline. >> >> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >> >> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >> >> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >> summer associate position between your second and third years of >> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >> >> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >> >> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >> go. >> >> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >> video is essentially accurate: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >> >> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >> not. >> >> Best, >> >> Kelby Carlson >> >> >> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not like >>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last few >>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet of >>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would be >>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I >>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have done >>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school and >>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything else >>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread or >>> privately. >>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Greetings Maura. >>> >>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, >>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it >>> and I do not regret my decision. >>> >>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart >>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>> >>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this >>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to be >>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in >>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got >>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>> heart. >>> >>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> Bill Spiry >>> Attorney at Law >>> Spiry Law LLC >>> (541) 600-3301 >>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>> >>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer >>> >>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN >>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only >>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the >>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it >>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know >>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>> email. >>> >>> >>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and >>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with Spiry >>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information >>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>> As to your questions: >>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids >>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war >>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept >>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All >>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who >>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have >>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more >>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to >>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >>> goals. >>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real >>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L >>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. >>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other >>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on >>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. >>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. >>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the >>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical >>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>> >>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>> >>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>> >>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do >>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of >>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point >>> the way. >>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a >>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people >>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make >>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test >>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school >>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take >>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not >>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are >>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this >>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>> redirect. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>> o.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/montascarlos267%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 16:44:55 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 11:44:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> Where to start? First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My gratitude to those who devote time to reading. At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us captive. I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this questionable goal. I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have other foundations laid. Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. Warm regards, Maura On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. > > A few points: > > 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. > > 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. > > 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is just about every other intense form of career preparation. > > 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. > > 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now accepts the GRE. > > 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. > > 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off and move on. > > On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >> will explain why at some length. >> >> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be taking on a >> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >> >> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >> months trying to get accommodations. >> >> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >> accrue during your studies. >> >> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >> are fabulous at networking. >> >> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >> outline. >> >> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >> >> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >> >> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >> summer associate position between your second and third years of >> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >> >> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >> >> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >> go. >> >> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >> video is essentially accurate: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >> >> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >> not. >> >> Best, >> >> Kelby Carlson >> >> >> >> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not like >>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last few >>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet of >>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would be >>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I >>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have done >>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school and >>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything else >>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread or >>> privately. >>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Greetings Maura. >>> >>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, married, >>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for it >>> and I do not regret my decision. >>> >>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your heart >>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>> >>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on this >>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to be >>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it in >>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got >>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>> heart. >>> >>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> Bill Spiry >>> Attorney at Law >>> Spiry Law LLC >>> (541) 600-3301 >>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>> >>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik Weihenmayer >>> >>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY IN >>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only >>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the >>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it >>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us know >>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>> email. >>> >>> >>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can and >>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with Spiry >>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged information >>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>> As to your questions: >>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study aids >>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war >>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept >>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. All >>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people who >>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to have >>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and more >>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to >>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >>> goals. >>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only real >>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a 2L >>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. >>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there other >>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still on >>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. >>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. >>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take the >>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more practical >>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>> >>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>> >>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>> >>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do >>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of >>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point >>> the way. >>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a >>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people >>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make >>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test >>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school >>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take >>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not >>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, are >>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this >>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>> redirect. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>> o.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From will.burley3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 18:11:02 2018 From: will.burley3 at gmail.com (Will Burley) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 12:11:02 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Case Management Software/Program Message-ID: <007601d49d46$5d007690$170163b0$@gmail.com> Greetings all, I hope everyone had a great Christmas! I believe I may have seen this on the list in the past but haven't been able to locate the emails. I'm a paralegal and am wondering what case management program people here have found accessible or more accessible to perform the essential duties of their legal job. My firm uses Legal Files and I really loathe it because I have to do JAWS searches to get to everything. The screen is set up in sectors so a simple tabbing doesn't work as it causes the screen reader to miss information. We use Legal Files for: Calendaring To-Do's Case notes Phone log notes Document storage and We can save emails directly from Outlook into a person's file Basically, it's our online filing system. What programs are you using in your practice and how accessible have you found it? Note: We just got some scripts to get to the major parts of the program but this is still lacking in a major way. Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am looking to provide my job with some alternatives to look at over the next year. Will Burley Administrative Law and Litigation Paralegal From jtfetter at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 18:26:27 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 13:26:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: A few points. 1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no benefits and Walmart wages. 2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there. 3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it. 4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities. On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that > point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. > > I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the > possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in > another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the > academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job > market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any > more rational. > > Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; > perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are > certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience > is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I > made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or > aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I > went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate > information before making that sort of decision. > > > > On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question >> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to >> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs >> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application >> process   knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got >> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and >> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired >> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went >> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well >> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >> my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is >> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now >> accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside >> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, >> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio >> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms >> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. >> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking >> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're >> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that >> school off and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a >>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>> months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >>> accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>> are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >>> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >>> go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >>> video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >>> not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not >>>> like >>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last >>>> few >>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet >>>> of >>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would >>>> be >>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. >>>> I >>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have >>>> done >>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >>>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school >>>> and >>>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything >>>> else >>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread >>>> or >>>> privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, >>>> married, >>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for >>>> it >>>> and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your >>>> heart >>>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >>>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on >>>> this >>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to >>>> be >>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it >>>> in >>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've >>>> got >>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>>> heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >>>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >>>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which >>>> is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY >>>> IN >>>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended >>>> only >>>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not >>>> the >>>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering >>>> it >>>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >>>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us >>>> know >>>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>>> email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can >>>> and >>>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with >>>> Spiry >>>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged >>>> information >>>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak >>>> via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study >>>> aids >>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a >>>> war >>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that >>>> accept >>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. >>>>> All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people >>>> who >>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to >>>> have >>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and >>>> more >>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is >>>> to >>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing >>>> wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >>>> goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only >>>> real >>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a >>>> 2L >>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at >>>> will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there >>>>> other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still >>>> on >>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" >>>> path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the >>>> moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take >>>>>>> the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical >>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email >>>> do >>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount >>>>>>> of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please >>>> point >>>> the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of >>>>>>> a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few >>>> people >>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >>>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly >>>>>>> make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >>>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance >>>> test >>>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law >>>> school >>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to >>>> take >>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am >>>> not >>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, >>>>>>> are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if >>>> this >>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>>> redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 19:57:59 2018 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (Kelby Carlson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 14:57:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On point number 4: I agree; I should have been better about this. But that is why I am putting this out there even though we disagree. At least I can, hopefully, provide someone with some things to consider that they might not otherwise have had. I'm curious--was your experience of discrimination primarily in the interview process or somewhere else? I didn't get enough interviews (and most of mine were with judges or government agencies) to get a really accurate sense of that. Ironically, in my current job my supervisors all totally have my back and it's the HR department that is being discriminatory. On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:28 PM James T. Fetter via BlindLaw < blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > A few points. > > 1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non > sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to > law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree > looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no > benefits and Walmart wages. > > 2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to > cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because > of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is > hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there. > > 3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with > these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not > what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it. > > 4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools > that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their > ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and > including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal > funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own > research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities. > > > On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that > > point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. > > > > I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the > > possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in > > another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the > > academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job > > market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any > > more rational. > > > > Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; > > perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are > > certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience > > is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I > > made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or > > aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I > > went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate > > information before making that sort of decision. > > > > > > > > On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question > >> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school > >> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. > >> > >> A few points: > >> > >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > >> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs > >> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application > >> process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got > >> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and > >> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired > >> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went > >> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. > >> > >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > >> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > >> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to > >> my knowledge. > >> > >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > >> just about every other intense form of career preparation. > >> > >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > >> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. > >> > >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > >> accepts the GRE. > >> > >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > >> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside > >> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > >> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > >> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > >> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. > >> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking > >> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. > >> > >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > >> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > >> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement > >> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that > >> school off and move on. > >> > >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very > >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I > >>> will explain why at some length. > >>> > >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least > >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to > >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There > >>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't > >>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can > >>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a > >>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your > >>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you > >>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a > >>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very > >>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. > >>> > >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were > >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not > >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect > >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best > >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and > >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with > >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that > >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is > >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered > >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations > >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and > >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with > >>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the > >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to > >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several > >>> months trying to get accommodations. > >>> > >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a > >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, > >>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of > >>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 > >>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of > >>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law > >>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably > >>> accrue during your studies. > >>> > >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First > >>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should > >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your > >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, > >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. > >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, > >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently > >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about > >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he > >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not > >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that > >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you > >>> are fabulous at networking. > >>> > >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are > >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited > >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to > >>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is > >>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your > >>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, > >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the > >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the > >>> outline. > >>> > >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is > >>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even > >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never > >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical > >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote > >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) > >>> > >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience > >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who > >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. > >>> > >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law > >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the > >>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your > >>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are > >>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get > >>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an > >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is > >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that > >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a > >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of > >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to > >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't > >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. > >>> > >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, > >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent > >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will > >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will > >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from > >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will > >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because > >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious > >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their > >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. > >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law > >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will > >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will > >>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have > >>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends > >>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had > >>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very > >>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic > >>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a > >>> year than my wife who works as a nanny. > >>> > >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get > >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? > >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot > >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan > >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the > >>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a > >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that > >>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and > >>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law > >>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not > >>> go. > >>> > >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is > >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools > >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain > >>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying > >>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and > >>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal > >>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This > >>> video is essentially accurate: > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs > >>> > >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will > >>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably > >>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I > >>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will > >>> not. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Kelby Carlson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: > >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not > >>>> like > >>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the > last > >>>> few > >>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every > facet > >>>> of > >>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I > would > >>>> be > >>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in > >>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more > reasonable. > >>>> I > >>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and > have a > >>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my > current > >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have > >>>> done > >>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the > >>>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but > the > >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. > I > >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be > done > >>>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law > school > >>>> and > >>>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or > anything > >>>> else > >>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this > thread > >>>> or > >>>> privately. > >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw > >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry > >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > >>>> > >>>> Greetings Maura. > >>>> > >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be > >>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age > of 48 > >>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, > >>>> married, > >>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It > was > >>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price > for > >>>> it > >>>> and I do not regret my decision. > >>>> > >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to > your > >>>> heart > >>>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not > for > >>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those > who > >>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone > without > >>>> sight (including other blind lawyers). > >>>> > >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on > >>>> this > >>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going > to > >>>> be > >>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to > get > >>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for > it > >>>> in > >>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe > you've > >>>> got > >>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your > >>>> heart. > >>>> > >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. > >>>> > >>>> Bill > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bill Spiry > >>>> Attorney at Law > >>>> Spiry Law LLC > >>>> (541) 600-3301 > >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com > >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik > >>>> Weihenmayer > >>>> > >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does > not > >>>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as > an > >>>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client > >>>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information > which > >>>> is > >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, > PROPRIETARY > >>>> IN > >>>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) > intended > >>>> only > >>>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not > >>>> the > >>>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for > delivering > >>>> it > >>>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or > >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this > Email > >>>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us > >>>> know > >>>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your > >>>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered > >>>> email. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can > >>>> and > >>>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with > >>>> Spiry > >>>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged > >>>> information > >>>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura > Kutnyak > >>>> via > >>>> BlindLaw > >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM > >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > >>>> > >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you > use a > >>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? > >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. > Just > >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. > >>>>> As to your questions: > >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level > of > >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations > barriers > >>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the > >>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study > >>>> aids > >>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least > when I > >>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging > a > >>>> war > >>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that > >>>> accept > >>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. > >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting > transition. > >>>>> All > >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years > younger-people > >>>> who > >>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to > >>>> have > >>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the > >>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and > >>>> more > >>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into > the > >>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there > is > >>>> to > >>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing > >>>> wrong > >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be > your > >>>> goals. > >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. > You'll > >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The > only > >>>> real > >>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be > interesting > >>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while > you're a > >>>> 2L > >>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who > >>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at > >>>> will. > >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. > >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there > >>>>> other > >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as > you > >>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and > still > >>>> on > >>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" > >>>> path. > >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school > were > >>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these > >>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would > have > >>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. > >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. > >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the > >>>> moment. > >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. > >>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak > >>>>>> 716-563-9882 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and > take > >>>>>>> the > >>>> plunge. Go for it! > >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished > >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more > >>>> practical > >>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur > >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of > >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International > >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. > >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law > >>>>>>> The University of Queensland > >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > >>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS > >>>>>>> code: 00025B > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for > the > >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University > of > >>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any > >>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is > >>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete > and > >>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this > email > >>>> do > >>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM > >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak > >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, > >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal > amount > >>>>>>> of > >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please > >>>> point > >>>> the way. > >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the > influence of > >>>>>>> a > >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step > has > >>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few > >>>> people > >>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed > me to > >>>> the collective knowledge of this email list. > >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I > possibly > >>>>>>> make > >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what > kinds of > >>>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which > entrance > >>>> test > >>>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law > >>>> school > >>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to > >>>> take > >>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I > am > >>>> not > >>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. > >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question > is, > >>>>>>> are > >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone > who > >>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. > >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more > >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if > >>>> this > >>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to > >>>> redirect. > >>>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g > >>>>>>> mail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 > >>>>>>> 0gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho > >>>>>> o.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g > >>>>> mail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > -- Kelby Carlson From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:11:08 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 15:11:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <22CC6361-4FE0-43C1-AF3F-56A129D6838E@gmail.com> Of course, the arguments which tell me what I want to hear sound pretty nice. Also, I did consider phD. I decided that a JD was more appealing for various reasons including the limitations of the academic world. As James noted. Again my thanks for engaging. So many interesting points. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Dec 26, 2018, at 1:26 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > A few points. > > 1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no benefits and Walmart wages. > > 2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there. > > 3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it. > > 4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities. > > >> On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that >> point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. >> >> I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the >> possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in >> another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the >> academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job >> market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any >> more rational. >> >> Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; >> perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are >> certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience >> is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I >> made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or >> aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I >> went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate >> information before making that sort of decision. >> >> >> >>> On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question >>> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>> >>> A few points: >>> >>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to >>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs >>> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application >>> process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got >>> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and >>> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired >>> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went >>> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >>> >>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well >>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>> my knowledge. >>> >>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is >>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>> >>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>> >>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now >>> accepts the GRE. >>> >>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside >>> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, >>> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio >>> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms >>> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. >>> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking >>> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>> >>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're >>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that >>> school off and move on. >>> >>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>> will explain why at some length. >>>> >>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >>>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >>>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >>>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >>>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >>>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >>>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a >>>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >>>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >>>> >>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >>>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>>> months trying to get accommodations. >>>> >>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >>>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >>>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >>>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >>>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >>>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >>>> accrue during your studies. >>>> >>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >>>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>>> are fabulous at networking. >>>> >>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >>>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >>>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >>>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>> outline. >>>> >>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >>>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>>> >>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>> >>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >>>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >>>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >>>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >>>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>> >>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >>>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >>>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >>>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >>>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >>>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >>>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >>>> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>> >>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >>>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >>>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >>>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >>>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >>>> go. >>>> >>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >>>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >>>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >>>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >>>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >>>> video is essentially accurate: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>> >>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >>>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >>>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >>>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >>>> not. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Kelby Carlson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not >>>>> like >>>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the last >>>>> few >>>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet >>>>> of >>>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I would >>>>> be >>>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. >>>>> I >>>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a >>>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have >>>>> done >>>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>>>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done >>>>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law school >>>>> and >>>>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or anything >>>>> else >>>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread >>>>> or >>>>> privately. >>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>> >>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48 >>>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, >>>>> married, >>>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was >>>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for >>>>> it >>>>> and I do not regret my decision. >>>>> >>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your >>>>> heart >>>>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not for >>>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who >>>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without >>>>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>>>> >>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on >>>>> this >>>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going to >>>>> be >>>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get >>>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it >>>>> in >>>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've >>>>> got >>>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>>>> heart. >>>>> >>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>> >>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not >>>>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as an >>>>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>>>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information which >>>>> is >>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, PROPRIETARY >>>>> IN >>>>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended >>>>> only >>>>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not >>>>> the >>>>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for delivering >>>>> it >>>>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this Email >>>>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us >>>>> know >>>>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>>>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>>>> email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can >>>>> and >>>>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with >>>>> Spiry >>>>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged >>>>> information >>>>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a >>>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just >>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of >>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers >>>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study >>>>> aids >>>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I >>>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a >>>>> war >>>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that >>>>> accept >>>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. >>>>>> All >>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people >>>>> who >>>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to >>>>> have >>>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and >>>>> more >>>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is >>>>> to >>>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing >>>>> wrong >>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your >>>>> goals. >>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll >>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only >>>>> real >>>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting >>>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a >>>>> 2L >>>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at >>>>> will. >>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there >>>>>> other >>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you >>>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still >>>>> on >>>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" >>>>> path. >>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were >>>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have >>>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the >>>>> moment. >>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take >>>>>>>> the >>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>> practical >>>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email >>>>> do >>>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount >>>>>>>> of >>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please >>>>> point >>>>> the way. >>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of >>>>>>>> a >>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has >>>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few >>>>> people >>>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to >>>>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly >>>>>>>> make >>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of >>>>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance >>>>> test >>>>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law >>>>> school >>>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to >>>>> take >>>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am >>>>> not >>>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is, >>>>>>>> are >>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who >>>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if >>>>> this >>>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>>>> redirect. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 20:29:06 2018 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 15:29:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2559898a-96d7-4832-630b-324fcb16b4fb@yahoo.com> My experience of discrimination was both in interviews and in my summer associate position. Firms are very good about constructing alternative  facts, if you will, for dismissing a blind applicant. In my case, their line was "aren't you an academic/don't you want to go into academia?" Right, because if I wanted to go into academia, I would be applying to law firms. Also, the firm where I did my summer internship made a very weak half-effort to make its document management system accessible, gave up after a day or so, and said they would work on it, if they decided to make an offer. And then they didn't make an offer, both because I was an academic, and because I couldn't handle visual evidence, whatever that is supposed to mean. Thus, they saw me as someone who could only do writing and research. Now, if a certain case doesn't settle, I'll be taking and defending depositions and, at a minimum, direct/cross-examining a few witnesses at trial in federal court, all before mid May. Not bad for an academic! I  was fortunate enough to have connections with a firm that does disability rights work and has a commitment to accessibility. I do not know what would have happened, notwithstanding my resume that checked all the boxes, if not for that. Class rank helped; coming out of a T50 law school helped. But at the end of the day, connections count for a lot, especially when far too many employers assume out of the gate that there are certain aspects of the job that I would be unable to perform. I don't hold the job market entirely or even primarily responsible for this struggle. Everyone else with similar credentials had at least one, if not multiple, offers from big law. Maybe it's different in DC and NYC. I didn't invest a lot of effort in targeting those markets, because I planned to stay in Ohio. In a way, getting uprooted was a blessing in disguise, because I now feel much freer to position myself in whichever market is interested in my talents. On 12/26/2018 2:57 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > On point number 4: I agree; I should have been better about this. But that > is why I am putting this out there even though we disagree. At least I can, > hopefully, provide someone with some things to consider that they might not > otherwise have had. > > I'm curious--was your experience of discrimination primarily in the > interview process or somewhere else? I didn't get enough interviews (and > most of mine were with judges or government agencies) to get a really > accurate sense of that. Ironically, in my current job my supervisors all > totally have my back and it's the HR department that is being > discriminatory. > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:28 PM James T. Fetter via BlindLaw < > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> A few points. >> >> 1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non >> sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to >> law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree >> looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no >> benefits and Walmart wages. >> >> 2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to >> cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because >> of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is >> hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there. >> >> 3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with >> these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not >> what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it. >> >> 4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools >> that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their >> ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and >> including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal >> funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own >> research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities. >> >> >> On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that >>> point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. >>> >>> I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the >>> possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in >>> another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the >>> academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job >>> market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any >>> more rational. >>> >>> Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; >>> perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are >>> certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience >>> is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I >>> made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or >>> aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I >>> went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate >>> information before making that sort of decision. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question >>>> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>> >>>> A few points: >>>> >>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to >>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs >>>> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application >>>> process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got >>>> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and >>>> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired >>>> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went >>>> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >>>> >>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well >>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>>> my knowledge. >>>> >>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is >>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>> >>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>> >>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now >>>> accepts the GRE. >>>> >>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside >>>> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, >>>> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio >>>> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms >>>> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. >>>> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking >>>> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>> >>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're >>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that >>>> school off and move on. >>>> >>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>> >>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There >>>>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't >>>>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can >>>>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a >>>>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your >>>>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you >>>>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a >>>>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very >>>>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >>>>> >>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>>>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>>>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with >>>>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the >>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>>>> months trying to get accommodations. >>>>> >>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school, >>>>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of >>>>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20 >>>>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of >>>>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law >>>>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably >>>>> accrue during your studies. >>>>> >>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First >>>>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>>>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>>>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>>>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>>>> are fabulous at networking. >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to >>>>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is >>>>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your >>>>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>> outline. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is >>>>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>>>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>>>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>>>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>>>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>>>> >>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>> >>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the >>>>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your >>>>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are >>>>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get >>>>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>>>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>>>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>>>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>>>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>>>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>>>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>>>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>> >>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will >>>>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have >>>>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends >>>>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had >>>>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very >>>>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic >>>>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a >>>>> year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>> >>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the >>>>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that >>>>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and >>>>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law >>>>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not >>>>> go. >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain >>>>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying >>>>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and >>>>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal >>>>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This >>>>> video is essentially accurate: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>> >>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will >>>>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably >>>>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I >>>>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will >>>>> not. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am not >>>>>> like >>>>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have in the >> last >>>>>> few >>>>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every >> facet >>>>>> of >>>>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school. Like Maura, I >> would >>>>>> be >>>>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in >>>>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more >> reasonable. >>>>>> I >>>>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and >> have a >>>>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my >> current >>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have >>>>>> done >>>>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the >>>>>> collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but >> the >>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >> I >>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >> done >>>>>> while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing law >> school >>>>>> and >>>>>> putting work aside for those few years? Any advice on this or >> anything >>>>>> else >>>>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this >> thread >>>>>> or >>>>>> privately. >>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be >>>>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age >> of 48 >>>>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me, >>>>>> married, >>>>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It >> was >>>>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price >> for >>>>>> it >>>>>> and I do not regret my decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >> your >>>>>> heart >>>>>> on this. You need to do it because it's what is right for you, not >> for >>>>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those >> who >>>>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone >> without >>>>>> sight (including other blind lawyers). >>>>>> >>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on >>>>>> this >>>>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, it's going >> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to >> get >>>>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for >> it >>>>>> in >>>>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe >> you've >>>>>> got >>>>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>>>>> heart. >>>>>> >>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >> not >>>>>> create an attorney-client relationship and should not be construed as >> an >>>>>> acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal attorney-client >>>>>> agreement. This Email message may contain CONFIDENTIAL information >> which >>>>>> is >>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >> PROPRIETARY >>>>>> IN >>>>>> NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) >> intended >>>>>> only >>>>>> for the use of the intended recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not >>>>>> the >>>>>> intended recipient of this Email or the person responsible for >> delivering >>>>>> it >>>>>> to the intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >> Email >>>>>> message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply to let us >>>>>> know >>>>>> and then delete the message and any attachments completely from your >>>>>> computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered >>>>>> email. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties can >>>>>> and >>>>>> do intercept email communication. By using email to communicate with >>>>>> Spiry >>>>>> law LLC, you assume the risk that any confidential or privileged >>>>>> information >>>>>> may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >> Kutnyak >>>>>> via >>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >> use a >>>>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >> Just >>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level >> of >>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >> barriers >>>>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the >>>>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study >>>>>> aids >>>>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least >> when I >>>>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging >> a >>>>>> war >>>>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that >>>>>> accept >>>>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >> transition. >>>>>>> All >>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >> younger-people >>>>>> who >>>>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to >>>>>> have >>>>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the >>>>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and >>>>>> more >>>>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into >> the >>>>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there >> is >>>>>> to >>>>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing >>>>>> wrong >>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >> your >>>>>> goals. >>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >> You'll >>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >> only >>>>>> real >>>>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be >> interesting >>>>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while >> you're a >>>>>> 2L >>>>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who >>>>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at >>>>>> will. >>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there >>>>>>> other >>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >> you >>>>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and >> still >>>>>> on >>>>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" >>>>>> path. >>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >> were >>>>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these >>>>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would >> have >>>>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >> true. >>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the >>>>>> moment. >>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >> take >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished >>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>> practical >>>>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >> the >>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >> of >>>>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>>>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete >> and >>>>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this >> email >>>>>> do >>>>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >> amount >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please >>>>>> point >>>>>> the way. >>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >> influence of >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step >> has >>>>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few >>>>>> people >>>>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed >> me to >>>>>> the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >> possibly >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >> kinds of >>>>>> supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which >> entrance >>>>>> test >>>>>> should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law >>>>>> school >>>>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to >>>>>> take >>>>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I >> am >>>>>> not >>>>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >> is, >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone >> who >>>>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if >>>>>> this >>>>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to >>>>>> redirect. >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yaho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> > From lmendez716 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 22:15:32 2018 From: lmendez716 at gmail.com (Luis Mendez) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 17:15:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <22CC6361-4FE0-43C1-AF3F-56A129D6838E@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <22CC6361-4FE0-43C1-AF3F-56A129D6838E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018b01d49d68$8534b2d0$8f9e1870$@gmail.com> Good afternoon Maura: Hope all continues well with you and your growing family. Let me thank you for sparking such an interesting and lively discussion. I also hope that you have had the time to read some of the threads discussing issues related to the day-to-day practice of law which have been posted to the list. Last summer a small group held a conference call to address workplace accommodations. I believe that the notes from that call have also been posted to the list. You may find the practice threads and other information on the list helpful in formulating your decision. To be sure, barriers to gaining admission to law school, and the job market upon graduation do exist. It is also true that the study and practice of law is challenging and demands a commitment of time and energy that may at times seem all-encompassing. Nonetheless, as evidenced by many on this list, though not always easily, these barriers can be overcome. As others have more eloquently stated, look within and ask yourself what it is that you are seeking to accomplish and how a legal education, and perhaps legal practice, will aid you in doing so. Keep in mind that a legal education can provide useful skills and a network that may be helpful even if you decide not to practice law. Luis -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 3:11 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Maura Kutnyak Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Of course, the arguments which tell me what I want to hear sound pretty nice. Also, I did consider phD. I decided that a JD was more appealing for various reasons including the limitations of the academic world. As James noted. Again my thanks for engaging. So many interesting points. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Dec 26, 2018, at 1:26 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > A few points. > > 1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no benefits and Walmart wages. > > 2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there. > > 3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it. > > 4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities. > > >> On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that >> point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that. >> >> I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the >> possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in >> another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the >> academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job >> market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any >> more rational. >> >> Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you; >> perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are >> certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my >> experience is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all >> the points I made above, you just believe that they can either be >> mitigated or aren't that important. But I was told none of these >> things before I went to law school, so it's important to me that >> people have accurate information before making that sort of decision. >> >> >> >>> On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>> question is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, >>> then law school is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>> >>> A few points: >>> >>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>> to mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application >>> process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got >>> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about >>> and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my >>> desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other >>> reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >>> >>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>> well with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the >>> games section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at >>> least not to my knowledge. >>> >>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>> is just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>> >>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>> >>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>> now accepts the GRE. >>> >>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top >>> 10% of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all >>> the other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. >>> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like >>> talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>> >>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>> you're looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>> that school off and move on. >>> >>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>> will explain why at some length. >>>> >>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I >>>> am not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>> that you will be atking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >>>> >>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I >>>> suspect they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you >>>> the best chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT >>>> score, and your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably >>>> higher with one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I >>>> say that self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable >>>> study is required. (I did not take a course and am positive my >>>> score suffered for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly >>>> with accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring >>>> them to grant more and better accommodations to those with >>>> disabilities. (I can say this with some confidence as I just took >>>> the MPRE, which is administered by the >>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>> >>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>> >>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that >>>> should probably be two or even one year. You will essentially >>>> repeat your entire first year over again while studying for the bar >>>> exam. Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>> >>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you >>>> are an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very >>>> limited time to spend with your family over the next four years if >>>> you want to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will >>>> be studying is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it >>>> cold by exams. Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they >>>> are open-book, however, they might actually be harder--professors >>>> will often up the difficulty of their exams if they allow you to >>>> use the book or the outline. >>>> >>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you >>>> will never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>> definitely for you.) >>>> >>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant >>>> experience that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as >>>> someone who really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>> >>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want >>>> to find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind >>>> of internship is a summer associate position between your second >>>> and third years of school, but this is a full-time position that >>>> will be harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once >>>> again, if you aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>> >>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying >>>> internships, but you do get several government internships and >>>> maintain decent grades throughout law school (as I did). In your >>>> third year you will then begin applying for jobs and judicial >>>> clerkships. You will probably send out hundreds of applications and >>>> get responses from almost no one. If you want to clerk with a >>>> federal judge, you will have already begun applying your second >>>> year of law school because most federal judges are looking two >>>> years out. Much like prestigious firm jobs, federal clerkships are >>>> highly coveted because of their resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of >>>> law students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you >>>> will perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky >>>> you will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, >>>> unless you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm >>>> your dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: >>>> by the time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as >>>> an attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you >>>> know what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I >>>> would be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>> >>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>> no, you should not go. >>>> >>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession >>>> and are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably >>>> not pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, >>>> because the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>> television. This video is essentially accurate: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>> >>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>> lot of people will not. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Kelby Carlson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of >>>>> going to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a >>>>> non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in working >>>>> at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. >>>>> I >>>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and >>>>> have a masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required >>>>> in my current profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 >>>>> years, which I have done online...but that has been the extent of >>>>> my recent experiences at the collegiate level. I definitely have >>>>> an interest in pursuing law but the >>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>> >>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some >>>>> may be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at >>>>> the age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career >>>>> already behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, >>>>> and plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart >>>>> was telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>>>> decision. >>>>> >>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>> lawyers). >>>>> >>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from >>>>> others on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, >>>>> yeah, it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some >>>>> walls that will be tough to get around/over/through but you >>>>> probably know if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it >>>>> if you know it's right for you and you believe you've got the >>>>> metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your >>>>> heart. >>>>> >>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>> >>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email >>>>> does not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>> viewed by third persons. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for >>>>>> it. Just >>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>> level of >>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to >>>>> ace this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>> then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition. >>>>>> All >>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for >>>>> high-pressure exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount >>>>> of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the ability to think in >>>>> different ways, the ability to write both well and more quickly, >>>>> etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the >>>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're >>>>> there is to get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law >>>>> firm). Nothing wrong with those goals, but based on your message, >>>>> they don't seem to be your goals. >>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>> You'll >>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>> courtesy they could approve or deny at will. >>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>> there other >>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who >>>>> took a "non-traditional" >>>>> path. >>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. >>>>> In fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>> the moment. >>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>> take the >>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au >>>>>>>> TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely >>>>>>>> for the >>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received >>>>> this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless >>>>> explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not >>>>> represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>> amount of >>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>> list. >>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>> test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>> is, are >>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>> more >>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. >>>>> Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere >>>>> else don't hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpu >>>>>>>> r%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutn >>>>>>>> yak%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%4 >>>>>>> 0yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>> k%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40 >>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40ao >>>>> l.com _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com From lmendez716 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 22:34:20 2018 From: lmendez716 at gmail.com (Luis Mendez) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 17:34:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Good evening: An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment in either the public or private sector, including enhancing opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to contact me. Luis -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Maura Kutnyak Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Where to start? First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My gratitude to those who devote time to reading. At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us captive. I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this questionable goal. I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have other foundations laid. Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. Warm regards, Maura On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. > > A few points: > > 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. > > 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. > > 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is just about every other intense form of career preparation. > > 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. > > 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now accepts the GRE. > > 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. > > 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off and move on. > > On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >> will explain why at some length. >> >> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there >> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, >> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to >> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure >> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like >> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be >> taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going >> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job. >> >> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this >> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered >> by the >> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >> months trying to get accommodations. >> >> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >> >> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >> are fabulous at networking. >> >> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >> outline. >> >> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >> >> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >> >> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships >> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going >> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >> summer associate position between your second and third years of >> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >> >> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you >> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >> >> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school >> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of >> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you >> should not go. >> >> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay >> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the >> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >> This video is essentially accurate: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >> >> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot >> of people will not. >> >> Best, >> >> Kelby Carlson >> >> >> >> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have >>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in >>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to >>> law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the >>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Greetings Maura. >>> >>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty >>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling >>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>> >>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers). >>> >>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that >>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if >>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's >>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way >>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>> >>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> Bill Spiry >>> Attorney at Law >>> Spiry Law LLC >>> (541) 600-3301 >>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>> >>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>> Weihenmayer >>> >>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of >>> this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's privilege by misdelivered email. >>> >>> >>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by third persons. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>> Just >>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>> As to your questions: >>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>> level of >>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires >>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no >>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this >>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>> transition. All >>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your goals. >>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>> You'll >>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at will. >>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>> there other >>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's >>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional" path. >>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, >>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what >>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring true. >>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the moment. >>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>> take the >>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>> Distinguished >>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>> >>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>> >>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>> >>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>> the >>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, >>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>> amount of >>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>> please point the way. >>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>> influence of a >>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>> possibly make >>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>> is, are >>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur% >>>>>> 40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>> k%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40y >>>>> aho >>>>> o.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>> 40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>> com _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 23:00:13 2018 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:00:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luis, How lovely it is to have your voice added to this spunky discourse. You identified 2 areas in public sector work which are of interest to me. Policy development and management of third sector government proxies are both close to my heart. I took administrative law this past semester as an elective in my program. I loved it despite how a drift in a foreign language the course work made me feel at times. I only just joined the list. So, I have not been exposed to some of the recent conversations about the practice of law. Thank you for pointing me in that direction. I will absolutely answer your openness to questions when they arise. It is fantastic to have access to willing founts of knowledge. Warmly, Maura . On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:34 PM, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a > fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job experience > may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion, > including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law > degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment in > either the public or private sector, including enhancing opportunities to > provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced law > in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to > address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and > other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to > contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? > First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I > suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to know > for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > > At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I > was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and > pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will > never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us > captive. > > I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have > young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this > questionable goal. > > I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That > said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have > other foundations laid. > > Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is > that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high level > to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer to > the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or, > would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position > ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish > this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in > the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its > a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the > only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for > people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process > knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score > that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full > tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but > good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, > albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, > for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of > tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I > landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, > let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, > NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off > and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there >>> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, >>> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to >>> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure >>> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like >>> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be >>> taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going >>> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this >>> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered >>> by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>> months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>> are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships >>> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going >>> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you >>> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school >>> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of >>> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you >>> should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay >>> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the >>> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot >>> of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have >>>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in >>>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to >>>> law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences > at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but > the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty >>>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling >>>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that >>>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if >>>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's >>>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way >>>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of >>>> this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires >>>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no >>>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this >>>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >>>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's >>>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >>>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, >>>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what >>>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, >>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur% >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 23:13:38 2018 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:13:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially because I fall somewhere between the two of you. I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, practical reason for getting one. Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, probably best to save your time and money. I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. Laura On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a > fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job experience > may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion, > including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law > degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment in > either the public or private sector, including enhancing opportunities to > provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced > law > in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to > address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and > other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to > contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? > First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I > suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to > know > for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > > At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I > was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and > pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will > never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us > captive. > > I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have > young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this > questionable goal. > > I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That > said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have > other foundations laid. > > Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is > that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high > level > to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer > to > the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or, > would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position > ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish > this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in > the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its > a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question >> is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the > only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for > people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process > knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score > that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full > tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff > but > good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, > albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > section, > for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of > tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I > landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, > let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, > NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off > and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there >>> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, >>> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to >>> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure >>> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like >>> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be >>> taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going >>> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this >>> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered >>> by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>> months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>> are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships >>> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going >>> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you >>> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school >>> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of >>> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you >>> should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay >>> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the >>> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot >>> of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have >>>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in >>>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to >>>> law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>> experiences > at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but > the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty >>>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling >>>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>> lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that >>>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if >>>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's >>>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way >>>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of >>>> this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires >>>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no >>>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this >>>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >>>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's >>>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >>>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, >>>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what >>>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, >>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur% >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From nmpbrat at aol.com Thu Dec 27 01:45:46 2018 From: nmpbrat at aol.com (nmpbrat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 01:45:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <233288883.2883166.1545875146036@mail.yahoo.com> Everyone has brought up some very interesting points.  Like James, I would be transitioning from the academic arena.  The academic field has changed greatly since i began my career and not necessarily for the better.  This has caused me to reassess whether I believe I should continue on in this career path or whether I would be better to take my talents in a different direction.  I have a very clear interest in the area of employment and labor law.  I could see myself specializing in employment discrimination.  I could also see myself dabbling in education law.  I have spent close to 15 years working very closely with L & E attorneys in a variety of legal matters and it has sparked my interest in this area.  One of the attorneys that I have worked closely with actually made a career switch much like what I would be doing and has led me to believe that it is in fact possible to do.  However, I don't believe it is good for me to make my decision based upon one person's experiences and thus, the reason I have been following this thread closely.  Finally, as to discrimination....that is something you will find in most career paths and one which I found along the way in my current profession, so that is one thing I can say for certainty that it would not be a deterrent.  Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion...your comments have been very insightful.  Nicole -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk via BlindLaw To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2018 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially because I fall somewhere between the two of you. I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a  pretty darn good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, practical reason for getting one. Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality.  no offense to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25.  There are reasons to deviate from this.  For instance, if the school you are aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, probably best to save your time and money. I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. Laura On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a > fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus  successful job experience > may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion, > including promotion to high level appointed executive positions.  A law > degree might, but would not necessarily  enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree  could open opportunities for legal employment in > either the public or private sector, including enhancing  opportunities to > provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced > law > in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to > address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and > other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to > contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? >     First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses.  In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I > suffer from a large measure of ambivalence.  Presumably the only way to > know > for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long.  My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > >     At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY.  I > was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and > pays a wage commensurate with my ability.  I believe that kind of work will > never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us > captive. > >     I plan to apply to one and only one school.  Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length.  Because I have > young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this > questionable goal. > >     I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt.  This is thanks to the state agency and its support.  That > said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans.  We own a home and have > other foundations laid. > >     Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm.  I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is > that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high > level > to start.  So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer > to > the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested?  Or, > would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position > ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work?  Either way once I finish > this masters I will be committing to at least full time work.  Directly in > the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school.  By the way, its > a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question >> is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the > only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for > people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process > knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got an LSAT score > that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full > tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff > but > good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, > albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > section, > for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside of > tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I > landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, > let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, > NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that school off > and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there >>> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, >>> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to >>> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure >>> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like >>> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be >>> taking  on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going >>> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this >>> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered >>> by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>> months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>> are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships >>> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going >>> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you >>> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school >>> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of >>> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you >>> should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay >>> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the >>> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot >>> of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me.  In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own.  However, I have >>>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in >>>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to >>>> law school.  Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable.  I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>> experiences > at the collegiate level.  I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but > the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting.  I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working?  Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years?  Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty >>>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling >>>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>>  So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's  what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>> lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this,  yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that >>>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if >>>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's >>>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way >>>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of >>>> this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication.  By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires >>>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no >>>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this >>>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >>>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's >>>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >>>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, >>>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what >>>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur.  While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge.  Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University.  I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, >>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>  I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>  I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>  My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take?  I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am not sure which test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>  I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>>  Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur% >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com From michele at accessible360.com Thu Dec 27 02:22:07 2018 From: michele at accessible360.com (Michele Landis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 20:22:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43506E74-F8C1-45F1-A1A2-94E0628A770D@accessible360.com> Hi Maura, In my work as an accessibility auditor, I have has the opportunity to meet and work with some blind attorneys and I would be happy to connect you with them for an informational interview; I am sure they would be happy to have a conversation regarding how they got through both law school, the bar and got their practices set up! Please contact me directly to further the topic, if you’d like. Best, Michele Digital Accessibility Experts MICHELE LANDIS, Co-Founder Accessible360 DIGITAL COMPLIANCE CONSULTANTS www.accessible360.com Office: 612-440-3601 Cell: 612-709-1724 > On Dec 24, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello blind law participants, > I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest. If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. > > I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. > > My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. > > I could go on and on…I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. > > Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don’t hesitate to redirect. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak-Smalley > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michele%40accessible360.com From montascarlos267 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 02:34:39 2018 From: montascarlos267 at gmail.com (carlos Montas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 21:34:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good evening I am so glad you wrose what you wrote. My plan is to finish my MPA and then try to get in to law school. My question for you would be do you believe that having the MPA helped you during your time in law school? Thanks so much. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:34 PM, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a > fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job experience > may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion, > including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law > degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment in > either the public or private sector, including enhancing opportunities to > provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced law > in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to > address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and > other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to > contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? > First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I > suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to know > for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > > At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I > was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and > pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will > never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us > captive. > > I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have > young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this > questionable goal. > > I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That > said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have > other foundations laid. > > Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is > that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high level > to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer to > the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or, > would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position > ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish > this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in > the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its > a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the > only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for > people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process > knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score > that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full > tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but > good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, > albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section, > for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of > tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be, > employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio > State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms > like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I > landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary, > let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers, > NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off > and move on. >> >>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there >>> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, >>> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to >>> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure >>> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like >>> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be >>> taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going >>> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations >>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and >>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this >>> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered >>> by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several >>> months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second, >>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not >>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that >>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you >>> are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even >>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never >>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical >>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote >>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships >>> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going >>> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an >>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is >>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that >>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a >>> summer associate position between your second and third years of >>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to >>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't >>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you >>> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school >>> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of >>> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you >>> should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay >>> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the >>> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot >>> of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have >>>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in >>>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to >>>> law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences > at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but > the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty >>>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling >>>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that >>>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if >>>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's >>>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way >>>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient of >>>> this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires >>>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no >>>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this >>>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as >>>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's >>>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school >>>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, >>>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what >>>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University >>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that >>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this >>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, >>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions >>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur% >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnya >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/montascarlos267%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 14:02:58 2018 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 09:02:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Message-ID: <5c24dba5.1c69fb81.a8f96.1f4d@mx.google.com> Hi Maura thanks for your message. Many law schools require prospective students to take the LSAT in order to get accepted.  On Dec 24, 2018 8:05 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello blind law participants, > I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount of interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where please point the way. > > I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the influence of a few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. > > My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly make my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what kinds of supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of which entrance test should I take?  I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am not sure which test is more friendly to the blind. > > I could go on and on…I will end soon. One additional question is, are there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. > > Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many more questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again, if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don’t hesitate to redirect. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak-Smalley > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From jmccarthy at mdtap.org Fri Dec 28 16:29:55 2018 From: jmccarthy at mdtap.org (Jim McCarthy) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 11:29:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who have commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in a tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally with them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we do in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared to do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a law degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been a plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law school until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like law school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment and how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog guide. Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if that was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about it, take a different direction. Best Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially because I fall somewhere between the two of you. I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, practical reason for getting one. Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, probably best to save your time and money. I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. Laura On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at > a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job > experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities > for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law > degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment > in either the public or private sector, including enhancing > opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. > Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful > in assisting my employer to address office management issues and > managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of > further help please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura > Kutnyak via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? > First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks > outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably > the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake > and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > > At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western > NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility > and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of > work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so > many of us captive. > > I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I > have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of > this questionable goal. > > I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. > That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home > and have other foundations laid. > > Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope > is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably > high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree > get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I > am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a > low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? > Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least > full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls > of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in > good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >> question is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school > is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >> to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance > programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the > application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in > tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to > write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio > State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a > variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit > less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >> well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to > my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >> is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >> now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even > outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and > continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% > of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the > other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio > wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and > although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >> you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement > numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write > that school off and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>> extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>> administered by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>> definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>> no, you should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>> lot of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>> experiences > at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing > law but the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>> lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>> viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>> then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>> your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>> courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>> a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>> the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>> official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>> test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>> more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>> y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>> % >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>> 4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >> g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org From ttomasi at driowa.org Fri Dec 28 17:45:52 2018 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 17:45:52 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> Message-ID: I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a vague interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, if you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go for it. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Jim McCarthy Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who have commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in a tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally with them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we do in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared to do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a law degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been a plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law school until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like law school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment and how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog guide. Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if that was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about it, take a different direction. Best Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially because I fall somewhere between the two of you. I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, practical reason for getting one. Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, probably best to save your time and money. I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. Laura On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: > Good evening: > > An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at > a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job > experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities > for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law > degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. > However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment > in either the public or private sector, including enhancing > opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. > Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful > in assisting my employer to address office management issues and > managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of > further help please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Luis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura > Kutnyak via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Maura Kutnyak > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Where to start? > First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful > responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks > outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably > the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake > and complete the process. > What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My > gratitude to those who devote time to reading. > > At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center > job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western > NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position. > What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in > employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility > and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of > work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so > many of us captive. > > I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the > precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I > have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of > this questionable goal. > > I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no > student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. > That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home > and have other foundations laid. > > Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope > is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably > high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree > get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I > am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a > low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? > Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least > full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls > of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in > good company accepting the GRE. > > Warm regards, > > Maura > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: > >> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >> question is, > or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school > is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >> to > mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance > programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the > application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in > tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to > write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio > State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a > variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit > less hair than I did before starting. >> >> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >> well > with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games > section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to > my knowledge. >> >> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >> is > just about every other intense form of career preparation. >> >> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton > better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >> >> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >> now > accepts the GRE. >> >> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. > Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even > outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and > continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% > of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the > other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio > wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and > although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >> >> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >> you're > looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. > Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement > numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write > that school off and move on. >> >> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>> will explain why at some length. >>> >>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>> extremely high-paying > job. >>> >>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>> administered by the >>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>> >>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>> >>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>> on a curve. >>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>> >>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>> outline. >>> >>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>> definitely for you.) >>> >>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>> >>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>> >>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>> >>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>> no, you should not go. >>> >>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>> This video is essentially accurate: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>> >>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>> lot of people will not. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kelby Carlson >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>> experiences > at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing > law but the >>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I >>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Greetings Maura. >>>> >>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision. >>>> >>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>> lawyers). >>>> >>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>> >>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Spiry >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>> >>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>> Weihenmayer >>>> >>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's > privilege by misdelivered email. >>>> >>>> >>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>> viewed by > third persons. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>> Just >>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>> As to your questions: >>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>> level of >>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>> then > do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>> transition. All >>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>> your > goals. >>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>> You'll >>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>> courtesy > they could approve or deny at will. >>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>> there other >>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>> a > "non-traditional" path. >>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring > true. >>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>> the > moment. >>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>> take the >>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>> Distinguished >>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>> the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>> official position of The > University of Queensland. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>> amount of >>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>> please point the way. >>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>> influence of a >>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>> possibly make >>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>> test > is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>> is, are >>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start. >>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>> more >>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>> y >>>>>> aho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>> % >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>> 4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >> g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 28 23:33:32 2018 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 23:33:32 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Congressional Research Service Job Postings Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 3:24 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Congressional Research Service Job Postings Legislative Attorney (Criminal Law) Open: 12/18/2018 – 01/15/2019 Salary: $96,970 to $126,062 per year The Congressional Research Service (CRS), American Law Division (ALD), seeks a Legislative Attorney to analyze legal questions that emerge from the work of Congress related to criminal law in particular and American public law generally. This is a non-litigating position emphasizing qualifications and interest in legal research and writing in a public service legislative context. The Legislative Attorney prepares objective, non-partisan analytical studies and descriptive and background memoranda and reports on legal issues of national significance; provides personal consultation and assistance to congressional committees, Members, and staff on legal issues throughout the legislative process; and participates in or leads team research projects and seminars. The Legislative Attorney is expected to develop over time the skills necessary to provide legal analysis and consultation to congressional committees, Members, and staff at increasingly sophisticated levels. Candidates with research experience in and broad general knowledge of legal issues regarding criminal law in particular and American public law in general; who demonstrate strong research, writing, and oral communication skills; and who possess a portfolio of high quality legal analytical writing are encouraged to apply. Experience as a judicial clerk will be beneficial. The position’s primary focus is the broad area of criminal law. However, given ALD’s relatively small staff and the breadth of issues ALD covers for Congress, candidates must also be capable of working in a number of different areas of the law and have the intellectual curiosity to seek out and maintain a broad portfolio of legal issues. Thus, applicants should also have knowledge of statutory interpretation and constitutional and administrative law. CRS is fully committed to workforce diversity. Interested applicants must apply online https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/519928300. *** ** ** ** *** Legislative Attorney (Business Law) Open: 11/09/2018 – 01/11/2019 Salary: $96,970 to $126,062 per year The Congressional Research Service (CRS), American Law Division (ALD), seeks a Legislative Attorney to analyze legal questions that emerge from the work of Congress related to business law, with a focus on tax and bankruptcy law issues, in particular and American public law generally. This is a non-litigating position emphasizing qualifications and interest in legal research and writing in a public service legislative context. The Legislative Attorney prepares objective, non-partisan analytical studies and descriptive and background memoranda and reports on legal issues of national significance; provides personal consultation and assistance to congressional committees, Members, and staff on legal issues throughout the legislative process; and participates in or leads team research projects and seminars. The incumbent is expected to develop over time the skills necessary to provide legal analysis and consultation to congressional committees, Members, and staff at increasingly sophisticated levels. Candidates with research experience in and broad general knowledge of legal issues regarding business law, including tax and/or bankruptcy law, in particular and American public law in general; who demonstrate strong research, writing, and oral communication skills; and who possess a portfolio of high quality legal analytical writing are encouraged to apply. Experience as a judicial clerk will be beneficial. The position’s primary focus is the broad area of business law, with a focus on tax and bankruptcy law, in particular. However, given ALD’s relatively small staff and the breadth of issues ALD covers for Congress, candidates must also be capable of working in a number of different areas of the law and have the intellectual curiosity to seek out and maintain a broad portfolio of legal issues. Thus, applicants should also have knowledge of constitutional and administrative law and statutory interpretation. CRS is fully committed to workforce diversity. Interested applicants must apply online https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/516565600. *** ** ** ** *** Supervisory Attorney (Section Research Manager) Open: 11/14/2018 – 1/10/2019 Salary: $134,789 to $164,200 per year The Section Research Manager (Supervisory Attorney) for the Congressional Research Service (CRS) leads a section of high-performing legislative attorneys who provide written and oral advice to Members of Congress and their staff on legal issues of interest to Congress involving all facets of American public law with an emphasis on nationally significant questions of constitutional law, administrative law, and statutory interpretation. Manages legal advice provided to Congress, leads staff of attorneys, and advises the Assistant Director and Deputy Assistant Director. Ensures that legal research and analysis is conducted in a collaborative manner, reflects the congressional agenda, and is relevant to congressional policy making. Leads, plans, organizes and coordinates legal research, including major projects related to sensitive or complex public policies of national or international significance, which can be multidisciplinary in nature. Ensures that legal advice provided is of the highest quality and meets CRS' standards of objectivity, timeliness, authoritativeness, and accessibility, while maintaining attorney-client confidentiality. Critically reviews legal research and analysis to ensure that it is of the highest quality; is accurate, well-organized, and cogent; meets professional and service standards; adheres to CRS guidelines; and is responsive to the legislative needs of Members and committees of Congress. Establishes and maintains relationships with Members and committees of Congress. Directly supervises attorneys in the section and may, as directed by the Assistant/Deputy Assistant Director, coordinate legal research and analysis on other projects and initiatives involving members of the American Law Division. Leads staff toward meeting the Library’s and CRS’s vision, mission, and goals by managing performance, communicating effectively, fostering continuous improvement and innovation, building and maintaining relationships, leveraging diversity and inclusiveness, thinking systematically and inspiring change. Exhibits commitment to the Library’s Supervisor Core Competencies. Contributes to and helps develop CRS-wide strategic goals and priorities. Communicates those goals and priorities to staff. Oversees implementation of CRS-wide policies, procedures, standards, and guidelines by staff. Effectively communicates management initiatives to staff and ensures that staff can acclimate to the changing needs of Congress and the CRS research community. Conveys to senior management information and concerns from staff. Performs supervisory functions relative to section staff. The Research Manager’s responsibilities will include: · Ensuring that attorneys produce objective, authoritative analysis that enables Congress to assess legal issues that inform the legislative agenda, congressional oversight of executive agencies, and the scope of Congress’s power; · Critically reviewing written analyses produced by legislative attorneys to ensure accuracy, authoritativeness, objectivity, and overall quality; · Identifying and coordinating legal research and analysis conducted by the section on matters of legislative importance and, as directed by the Assistant/Deputy Assistant Director of the American Law Division, engaging in such functions for Division-wide projects; · Proactively establishing relationships with committees of jurisdiction, building long-term relationships with clients, and taking initiative to seek out new congressional contacts for CRS; · Managing congressional requests for legal analysis from attorneys in the section; · Collaborating with other managers to ensure an integrative approach to the work by fully identifying significant issues facing Congress, developing legal analytical approaches to address them, and applying appropriate resources; · Managing and supervising legislative attorneys, communicating performance standards/expectations to staff, assessing performance and giving feedback; and · Performing special assignments as directed by the AD/DAD. Candidates with management experience in intensive legal environments (e.g., law firms, federal agencies), who have strong interpersonal skills, and are capable of leading a highly motivated, talented team of attorneys committed to providing Congress nonpartisan, authoritative, objective legal analysis are encouraged to apply. Prior experience as a judicial clerk on a federal or state court benefits any candidate. CRS is fully committed to workforce diversity. Interested applicants must apply https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/516764200. *** ** ** ** Legislative Attorney (Constitutional Law) Open: 11/15/2018 – 01/10/2019 Salary: $96,970 to $126,062 per year The Congressional Research Service (CRS), American Law Division (ALD), seeks a Legislative Attorney to analyze legal questions that emerge from the work of Congress related to constitutional law in particular and American public law generally. This is a non-litigating position emphasizing qualifications and interest in legal research and writing in a public service legislative context. The Legislative Attorney prepares objective, non-partisan analytical studies and descriptive and background memoranda and reports on legal issues of national significance; provides personal consultation and assistance to congressional committees, Members, and staff on legal issues throughout the legislative process; and participates in or leads team research projects and seminars. The incumbent is expected to develop over time the skills necessary to provide legal analysis and consultation to congressional committees, Members, and staff at increasingly sophisticated levels. Candidates with research experience in and broad general knowledge of legal issues regarding constitutional law in particular and American public law in general; who demonstrate strong research, writing, and oral communication skills; and who possess a portfolio of high quality legal analytical writing are encouraged to apply. Experience as a judicial clerk will be beneficial. The position’s primary focus is the broad area of constitutional law. However, given ALD’s relatively small staff and the breadth of issues ALD covers for Congress, candidates must also be capable of working in a number of different areas of the law and have the intellectual curiosity to seek out and maintain a broad portfolio of legal issues. Thus, applicants should also have knowledge of administrative law and statutory interpretation. CRS is fully committed to workforce diversity. Interested applicants must apply https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/516974300. *** ** ** ** Legislative Attorney (Military and Veterans Law) Open: 12/11/2018 – 01/07/2019 Salary: $96,970 to $126,062 per year The Congressional Research Service (CRS), American Law Division (ALD), seeks a Legislative Attorney to analyze legal questions that emerge from the work of Congress related to military and veterans’ law, in particular and American public law generally. This is a non-litigating position emphasizing qualifications and interest in legal research and writing in a public service legislative context. The Legislative Attorney prepares objective, non-partisan analytical studies and descriptive and background memoranda and reports on legal issues of national significance; provides personal consultation and assistance to congressional committees, Members, and staff on legal issues throughout the legislative process; and participates in or leads team research projects and seminars. The incumbent is expected to develop over time the skills necessary to provide legal analysis and consultation to congressional committees, Members, and staff at increasingly sophisticated levels. Candidates with research experience in and broad general knowledge of legal issues regarding military and veterans’ law, in particular and American public law in general; who demonstrate strong research, writing, and oral communication skills; and who possess a portfolio of high quality legal analytical writing are encouraged to apply. Experience as a judicial clerk will be beneficial. The position’s primary focus is the broad area of military and veterans’ law, in particular. However, given ALD’s relatively small staff and the breadth of issues ALD covers for Congress, candidates must also be capable of working in a number of different areas of the law and have the intellectual curiosity to seek out and maintain a broad portfolio of legal issues. Thus, applicants should also have knowledge of constitutional and administrative law and statutory interpretation. CRS is fully committed to workforce diversity. Interested applicants must apply https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/519125700. Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.