[blindlaw] track changes, etc.

[Steve Jacobson]

Michal,

Thank you.  Please let me add that particularly those who are familiar with NVDA should also push for changes there, I agree with Aaron on that.  We shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket, though, so working with both screen readers seems a wise approach to me.

Happy holidays,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michal Nowicki via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 9:37 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Michal Nowicki <mnowicki4 at icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc.

Steve,

You hit the nail on the head in two important ways. First, no single platform, screen reader, or web browser is the perfect solution for every task. Although NVDA and Narrator continue to improve, powerful productivity features like text analyzer and proofreading speech and sounds schemes, to name a few, make JAWS a highly desirable screen reader in the workplace. Nevertheless, NVDA beats JAWS in certain areas, such as the Windows 10 mail app and in keeping up with the rapidly evolving technological landscape. Moreover, although I recently set Chrome as my default web browser for Windows because support for Internet Explorer is rapidly declining, I still use IE to buy Amtrak tickets, because on Amtrak’s dynamic assistive site, I cannot select departure and arrival cities from the list of search results using JAWS in Chrome.

Second, I cannot agree more that we cannot automatically blame FreedomScientific for all accessibility bugs in Office and Windows. Since Windows 10 came out, Microsoft has been rolling out major updates to the system approximately every six months, and Office 365 is updated even more frequently: a phenomenon we have never seen before. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for third-party screen reader developers to keep up with these constant changes. That being said, it helps tremendously that Freedomscientific now collaborates more closely with Microsoft than ever before, but I am afraid that new bugs will nonetheless continue to emerge from time to time. This is why we need to report issues as soon as we discover them.

Best Wishes for the Holidays,

Michal

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 5:12 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
Cc: Steve Jacobson
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc.

Cody and others,

There are several points I would like to respond to, but I need to make sure my background and my reason for doing so are clear.  First, I do not work for Freedom Scientific or Vispero in any way.  I have been a long time user of Windows software because that is what my employer required, however I was mostly a Window-Eyes user rather than a JAWS user.  As you may know, Window-Eyes was purchased by Freedom Scientific as it was part of the company at that point that sold ZoomText, and Freedom Scientific wanted ZoomText.  They discontinued the development of Window-Eyes.  I have only a very slight experience with the MAC, but have been an iPhone user for some five or six years now.

First, while I can't say to what degree JAWS might be complacent because of the market share they have had for a long time, they still do feel some pressure.  NVDA has taken away some people who may have been JAWS users at home shrinking their base some.  Also, it is no secret that Microsoft is feeling pressure to have a more powerful screen reader built into Windows because of what Apple has done on the MAC and in IOS on those devices.  Those who have Windows 10 version 1809 will find that Narrator has gotten a good deal more powerful.  Microsoft has been clear that they want to continue to support other screen readers, but we could see Narrator become more useful to the serious user in the future.  Narrator can already be used in Windows repair modes where screen readers did not work in the past under Windows.  Some of this functionality has been part of Apples platform for some time.  The bottom line, at least to this paragraph, is that there are pressures being felt by JAWS.  This is likely partly why they have just introduced a cheaper purchase plan for home users.  Therefore, I believe that customers can have an effect on them.  

In addition, Microsoft is working pretty hard to keep and increase their use in corporations.  Whether they succeed in the long run or not, I would not count on Apple computers being suddenly the default computer in the workplace real soon.  Anything could happen in the long run, though.  I don't pretend to know what that might look like.

>From what people have said here and from other things I have read, Word on the MAC works better in many ways than does Word in Windows.  One might assume this is all because of VoiceOver, but that isn't the case.  Those of you who have used MACs for a while know that there was a significant period of time when Word did not work at all with VoiceOver.  This was not because VoiceOver didn't do its job, it had to do with how Microsoft wrote Word for the MAC, with the core likely being written before VoiceOver even existed.  The reason Word works better now is that Microsoft basically had to write it over from scratch, for accessibility reasons and for other reasons.  In effect, it is relatively new software.  Although Word for Windows has received a lot of updates, it has been added to and modified but never completely written over.  At this point, it is not clear to what degree the track changes issue is a JAWS problem and to what degree it is a problem with the information Microsoft makes available.  Starting by approaching JAWS makes good sense, but the fact that people here say NVDA works better, without saying it works perfectly, makes me think that Microsoft may also play a role in this problem.  It therefore clearly needs some attention.  Those of us involved in technology need to understand what other users, such as those of you here, are dealing with so we can add our voices to the voices of others to fix those things that have the largest impact on employment situations.  As blind people, we are more dependent than ever on good software access to perform our jobs.

Finally, I would caution making comparisons between the Apple platform and the Windows platform.  They are very different.  The way accessibility has evolved in those two cases is also very different.  The tools that are needed in those environments are therefore very different as well.  I could write another long note on that, but will spare all of you that given this note is probably too long.  As has been stated, Apple has created very clear guidelines and tools to make applications accessible, and they deserve credit for that.  Over the past ten years, there have been pretty good guidelines on the Windows platform as well, but to be sure software is accessible, it had to work well with at least three different screen readers, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and NVDA.  The same accessibility guidelines are not implemented in the same way in all three screen readers.  In the case of Apple, there are few tools that can be used to make software that is not accessible be accessible.  Please note that I did not say there were none, but there are not as many.  Apples operating systems are more "closed," meaning there is less capability for a screen reader to go in and find information that the software developer did not make accessible.  In Windows, much of the accessibility in the past came about by using other ways for our screen readers to get information from Windows.  This is especially true of JAWS and Window-Eyes which have been working in Windows since the mid 90's.  Microsoft is now closing some of these openings because they also created security risks, so this difference will disappear over time.  However, this means that JAWS will have more ways of doing things to take advantage of some of the older ways of getting information.  I use some software for my job that worked well with JAWS and Window-Eyes that did not work with NVDA, for example.  This does not mean that JAWS is better than VoiceOver, nor does it mean VoiceOver is better than JAWS.  They are different in order to do their jobs in different environments.  The fact is, though, that a particular environment might fit a person's needs and that could be Windows or MAC.  I should mention that JAWS does have the ability to search for a command now.  I don't know if it is as efficient as ChromeVox or VoiceOver, but it has been a part of the last couple of versions of JAWS.

Web browsing is in some ways a bit of a pain right now.  As some of you know better than I, there are differences between how various web browsers handle particular web pages even without accessibility in the mix.  In addition, web browsers don't implement accessibility in exactly the same way, either.  There are cases where Safari or Chrome with VoiceOver handle particular pages better than anything does in Windows.  There are also cases where a page works all right with Internet Explorer but not well with other browsers.  This is probably getting less true, but my employer still requires the use of Internet Explorer for all sites within the company.  This is still true of some other corporations as well.  This means that for those situations, substituting an Apple computer for a Windows computer is not a practical solution.  This also means that some of the additional information JAWS gives some of us about web pages is very useful, but I'm not trying to say that is necessarily useful to everybody.  

Right now, I am struggling some to get a Windows Update to run.  I know from my daughter's experience with her MAC that Apple very rarely has problems like that.  That, in itself, might be a reason for many to buy a MAC.  Again, though, this happens partly because of differences that are both good and bad.  Windows tries to run on many different brands of computers with all kinds of possible hardware.  On the apple platform, Apple exercises a good deal of control over the hardware that is used to run their operating systems.  I am not certain that there even is a commercial product that runs the MAC operating system with VoiceOver other than Apple.  This means that Apple knows very well which hardware will be used to run their operating systems while Microsoft has far less control.  The idea of a Microsoft computer is really a pretty new one.  

In summary, there are a couple of points here.  First, people need to figure out what feels right and what meets their needs.  Apple products are going to be a good choice for many people.  On the other hand, as we work to resolve the challenges we face, we have to understand why there are differences to some degree and also how to make the change happen that we need.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Cody J. Davis via BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 1:29 PM
To: Elizabeth Rene <rene0373 at gmail.com>
Cc: Cody J. Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>; Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] track changes, etc.

Something I forgot to mention in my last reply:

I also appreciate the approach that Apple has taken in developing screen reading software. In my opinion, Apple’s Voiceover is more intuitive to use. Just as the user-interface of operating systems have become more intuitive for easy use by an average person with no programming or IT background, so has Voiceover been developed to allow easy navigation of Mac OS and iOS without any additional knowledge or effort compared to the sighted user. 

I find, when using JAWS and other Windows based screen readers, that I need to remember a copious number of commands and have knowledge of things like what a frame is in HTML—something a sighted user would never need to know. 

To give an example of how Voiceover seems more intuitive to me, Voiceover seems to have more comprehensive navigation using arrow keys and minimal commands compared to how simply reading text in JAAWS requires one to remember several different functions. Also, JAWS seems to have no menu to easily access a command shortcut that you cannot remember. Voiceover has an easy to use help menus built into the screen reader where the user can easily search for or navigate to a command they have forgotten or don’t know. 

I would add, Google’s ChromeVox screen reader seems to have a similar navigation style as Apple’s Voiceover and also doesn’t require the knowledge of many commands for easy navigation. I find ChromeVox also more intuitive than JAWS. 

I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly as I’m having trouble expressing my thoughts in describing the differences between the JAWS/NVDA interface and the VoiceOver/ChromeVox interface. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Elizabeth Rene <rene0373 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Cody and all,
> Yes indeed, when was the last time FS asked you to rate its products and services?
> When was the last time it asked our employers to do that?
> When was the last time it offered or submitted to accountability and responsiveness measures as a contractual term when setting up agreements with state and federal agencies?
> It’s gotten altogether too big for its britches.
> It is serving itself rather than its market.
> “ look what we’re doing for those poor blind people!“ they say. “ aren’t we wonderful?”
> They’ve come to believe their own press.
> And why shouldn’t the public believe it too, because we are a discreet market.
> But why should we keep on being discreet? We’re blind people, not Martians. More importantly, we are blind lawyers, judges, professors, law students, and community leaders of every sort. My state has a blind Lieutenant Governor.
> I say let’s take a playbook from the LGBTQ movement and come out of the cubicle.
> It’s time to make some noise in the marketplace and maybe take some legal action in tandem with our employers if the providers of necessary accommodations aren’t fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply technology fit for its intended purpose.
> We’re not in the 1980s anymore, when access technology was new.
> Cody, to be specific about Apple versus JAWS, maybe there’s a third player to consider.
> A couple of years ago, I ran into a major conflict between MS Word and VoiceOver. I called Microsoft and found them surprisingly responsive. After communicating directly with their accessibility IT people, Microsoft came through and solved the compatibility problem. Granted, with each update to Office 365 and Apple’s iOS, new glitches can arise. But Microsoft seems to want to be far more accessible than it used to be decades ago. If Microsoft products are still the industry standard in the workplace, maybe we blind professionals should make Microsoft our ally and become less dependent on JAWS.
> Cheers,
> Elizabeth 
> 
> Elizabeth M René 
> Attorney at Law 
> WSBA #10710 
> KCBA #21824
> rene0373 at gmail.com 
> 
> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Cody J. Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I’ve kept an eye on this thread and have found it quite interesting. On the topic of track changes, I have avoided using it because I could never figure out an efficient way to use it, either with JAWS or Voiceover. It sounds like Voiceover handles track changes in Word pretty well, so I’ll have to look into how that is done. 
> 
> 
> With the general access issues presented by JAWS and FS, I have always preferred apple products, including iPhone, iPad Pro, and Mac. I have found that Apple developers are more responsive than FS when it comes to improving their screen readers and other assistive technologies. The problem is, JAWS and MIcrosoft Windows are the predominate platforms in the workplace. For this reason, I have, with great reluctance, used JAWS at work. 
> 
> 
> FS, in my opinion, has no motivation to improve it’s product like JAWS because they have a sort of monopoly. They are well aware that JAWS is the leading screen reader in the workplace, so they have no reason to improve their products or be more responsive to complaints. Who else will blind users turn to?
> 
> NVDA is an option, but it doesn’t seem to be a popular one. I think Apple’s voiceover is the foremost competitor with JAWS. But, until Apple machines become more pro inmate in the office, FS and JAWS will have too strong of a foothold to be threatened by Apple’s competing screen reader. 
> 
> Best,
> Cody Davis
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Elizabeth Rene via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Listmates,
>> This all seems like an access to justice issue to me. OK, access to productivity. Same thing, really, because it means access to equal employment opportunity and professional advancement.
>> Maybe pressure needs to be brought to bear on a larger stage.
>> Maybe articles need to be written to the leading technological journals that address accessibility to let them know that the market is changing and that the expectations of customers aren’t being kept up with by the developers who were supposed to be opening doors for them. Maybe even magazines like Geekwire aught to be encouraged to take up the issue. Because I don’t think it’s just blind people who are finding them selves captive to unresponsive technology. As devices are expected to do more and more things, some apps may be becoming less and less robust.
>> When I go to the App Store in Apple, I always read the reviews before I buy a new app. Maybe we ought to start writing reviews of JAWS, etc., on the Internet. We could use Yelp, write posts to LinkedIn, or claim any forum that might get Freedom Scientific’s attention. If FS doesn’t step up to the plate, maybe its competitors will.
>> Thanks,
>> Elizabeth 
>> 
>> Elizabeth M René 
>> Attorney at Law 
>> WSBA #10710 
>> KCBA #21824
>> rene0373 at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
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