[blindlaw] Seeking guidance

James T. Fetter jtfetter at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 26 18:26:27 UTC 2018


A few points.

1. A comparison between the legal and academic job markets is not a non 
sequitur for someone thinking about transitioning from grad school to 
law school--or, as in my case, someone with an advanced grad degree 
looking at a limitless horizon of adjunct teaching opportunities with no 
benefits and Walmart wages.

2. Comparative job markets across states: I'm not in Ohio. I had to 
cross state lines to find the position where I am now. This was because 
of employment discrimination, not the legal job market in Ohio. It is 
hard to find firms that do not discriminate, but they're out there.

3. Cover letters etc.: the key is finding the right people to help with 
these and make calls for you. I don't like the saying that "it's not 
what you know, it's who you know." But there's a lot of truth to it.

4. Re: accurate information: fully agreed on that point. Law schools 
that inflated their placement numbers or otherwise misrepresented their 
ability to help students find jobs should pay harsh penalties, up to and 
including the revocation of accreditation and ineligibility for federal 
funds. But as with anything, the best bet is to perform one's own 
research and assess risks based on one's own goals, means, and abilities.


On 12/26/2018 10:59 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote:
> On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that
> point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that.
>
> I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the
> possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in
> another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the
> academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job
> market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any
> more rational.
>
> Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you;
> perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are
> certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience
> is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I
> made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or
> aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I
> went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate
> information before making that sort of decision.
>
>
>
> On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question
>> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school
>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse.
>>
>> A few points:
>>
>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to
>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs
>> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application
>> process   knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got
>> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and
>> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired
>> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went
>> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting.
>>
>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well
>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games
>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to
>> my knowledge.
>>
>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is
>> just about every other intense form of career preparation.
>>
>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton
>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it.
>>
>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now
>> accepts the GRE.
>>
>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20.
>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside
>> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be,
>> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio
>> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms
>> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero.
>> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking
>> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k.
>>
>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're
>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers.
>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement
>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that
>> school off and move on.
>>
>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote:
>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very
>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I
>>> will explain why at some length.
>>>
>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least
>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to
>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There
>>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't
>>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can
>>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a
>>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your
>>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you
>>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a
>>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very
>>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job.
>>>
>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were
>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not
>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect
>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best
>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and
>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with
>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that
>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is
>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered
>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations
>>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and
>>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with
>>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the
>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to
>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several
>>> months trying to get accommodations.
>>>
>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a
>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school,
>>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of
>>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20
>>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of
>>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law
>>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably
>>> accrue during your studies.
>>>
>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First
>>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should
>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your
>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second,
>>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve.
>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively,
>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently
>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about
>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he
>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not
>>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that
>>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you
>>> are fabulous at networking.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are
>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited
>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to
>>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is
>>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your
>>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book,
>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the
>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the
>>> outline.
>>>
>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is
>>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even
>>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never
>>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical
>>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote
>>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.)
>>>
>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience
>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who
>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it.
>>>
>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law
>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the
>>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your
>>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are
>>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get
>>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an
>>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is
>>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that
>>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a
>>> summer associate position between your second and third years of
>>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to
>>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't
>>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low.
>>>
>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships,
>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent
>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will
>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will
>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from
>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will
>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because
>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious
>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their
>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one.
>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law
>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will
>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will
>>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have
>>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends
>>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had
>>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very
>>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic
>>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a
>>> year than my wife who works as a nanny.
>>>
>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get
>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice?
>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot
>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan
>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the
>>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a
>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that
>>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and
>>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law
>>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not
>>> go.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is
>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools
>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain
>>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying
>>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and
>>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal
>>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This
>>> video is essentially accurate:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs
>>>
>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will
>>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably
>>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I
>>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will
>>> not.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Kelby Carlson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me.  In some ways, I am not
>>>> like
>>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own.  However, I have in the last
>>>> few
>>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet
>>>> of
>>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school.  Like Maura, I would
>>>> be
>>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in
>>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable.
>>>> I
>>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a
>>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current
>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have
>>>> done
>>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the
>>>> collegiate level.  I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the
>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting.   I
>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done
>>>> while still working?  Or does one need to plan on just doing law school
>>>> and
>>>> putting work aside for those few years?  Any advice on this or anything
>>>> else
>>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread
>>>> or
>>>> privately.
>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry <b.s.spiry at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Maura.
>>>>
>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be
>>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48
>>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me,
>>>> married,
>>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was
>>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for
>>>> it
>>>> and I do not regret my decision.
>>>>
>>>>    So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your
>>>> heart
>>>> on this. You need to do it because it's  what is right for you, not for
>>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who
>>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without
>>>> sight (including other blind lawyers).
>>>>
>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on
>>>> this
>>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this,  yeah, it's going to
>>>> be
>>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get
>>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it
>>>> in
>>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've
>>>> got
>>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your
>>>> heart.
>>>>
>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill Spiry
>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>> Spiry Law LLC
>>>> (541) 600-3301
>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com
>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik
>>>> Weihenmayer
>>>>
>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does not
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>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak
>>>> via
>>>> BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM
>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>
>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a
>>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful?
>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just
>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you.
>>>>> As to your questions:
>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of
>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers
>>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the
>>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study
>>>> aids
>>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I
>>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a
>>>> war
>>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that
>>>> accept
>>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering.
>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition.
>>>>> All
>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people
>>>> who
>>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to
>>>> have
>>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the
>>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and
>>>> more
>>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the
>>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is
>>>> to
>>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing
>>>> wrong
>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your
>>>> goals.
>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll
>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only
>>>> real
>>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting
>>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a
>>>> 2L
>>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who
>>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at
>>>> will.
>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing.
>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there
>>>>> other
>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you
>>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still
>>>> on
>>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional"
>>>> path.
>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were
>>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these
>>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have
>>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years.
>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur.  While maybe not practical, your words ring true.
>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the
>>>> moment.
>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write.
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take
>>>>>>> the
>>>> plunge.  Go for it!
>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished
>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University.  I will let others give more
>>>> practical
>>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International
>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS
>>>>>>> code: 00025B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of
>>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any
>>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is
>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and
>>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email
>>>> do
>>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM
>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants,
>>>>>>>    I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount
>>>>>>> of
>>>> interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where please
>>>> point
>>>> the way.
>>>>>>>    I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the influence of
>>>>>>> a
>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has
>>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More than a few
>>>> people
>>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to
>>>> the collective knowledge of this email list.
>>>>>>>    My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly
>>>>>>> make
>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what kinds of
>>>> supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of which entrance
>>>> test
>>>> should I take?  I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law
>>>> school
>>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to
>>>> take
>>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am
>>>> not
>>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind.
>>>>>>>    I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is,
>>>>>>> are
>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from someone who
>>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start.
>>>>>>>    Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many more
>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again, if
>>>> this
>>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to
>>>> redirect.
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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