[blindlaw] Seamlessly procuring relevant pieces of information

Sat Mar 3 18:47:22 UTC 2018

Hi Sai,

I have Kerzweil 1000, and I do sometimes use it to read inaccessible
PDFs. As I understand it, there are 2 ways in which you can read an
inaccessible PDF using Kerzweil - you could either have the OCR
results in a separate window, like JAWS OCR, or convert it into Word.
I have tried both, but I haven't found the result to be significantly
better than with Fine Reader 11.

As I understand it, Kerzweil 14 uses Fine Reader 11 as the OCR engine,
so I am not sure how the OCR result would be better while using
Kerzweil as opposed to Fine Reader 11 simpliciter. I know that
Kerzweil processes the OCR result to improve accuracy. Are you saying
that that that feature improves the quality of the result?

Best,
Rahul

On 03/03/2018, sy.hoekstra--- via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Rahul,
>
> Did you say you are converting pdf documents to Word?  That would make it
> tough.  I usually convert most relevant portions of the record using
> Kurzweil 1000, which allows me to switch between documents quickly, add
> bookmarks, write comments, etc.  And it does a much better job with the OCR
> than when PDFs are converted to Word.  It's expensive software though.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 11:21 AM
> To: Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org>
> Cc: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>; Blind Law Mailing List
> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seamlessly procuring relevant pieces of information
>
> Hi Sai,
>
> Thanks for those thoughtful comments. I agree that such an accommodation
> could be asked for if you are the arguing counsel, but it's much harder in
> the circumstances that I currently confront. We in fact even submitted a
> representation to the Indian Supreme Court to issue a circular mandating
> that all materials be made accessible if disabled lawyers are involved. It
> has unfortunately not been acted on yet.
>
> I think the idea of  pushing for legislative change is also a great one -
> something that I'll definitely explore in the Indian context.
>
> While I am able to access briefs, accessing the record is the main
> challenge. For drafting, this is not such a huge issue as one has to decide
> what arguments to make in collaboration with others, so they can help me
> understand what pieces of evidence are relevant. But I find that my
> inability to access the record is greatly hampering my ability to realize my
> full potential professionally.
>
>
> Best,
> Rahul
> Best,
> Rahul
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 27, 2018, at 5:33 PM, Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org> wrote:
>>
>> I'm very interested in this as well.
>>
>> My blindness is strictly due to light sensitivity, so in dim environments
>> I can read visually. However, if I'm in court presenting oral arguments
>> (or second chair), that'd be a problem.
>>
>> I suspect that asking the court to lower the lights enough for me to see
>> would make it hard for the judges to see, so that's probably not an
>> accommodation I could get. Using voiceover in a headset might seem
>> suspicious or the like. I've been thinking about whether I should learn to
>> use a refreshable Braille display.
>>
>> As to the other point: when I externed at CA9, it was very common for the
>> briefs to be accessible, but the record to be a really bad scan, despite a
>> local rule mandating electronic documents. This was even for eg the
>> decisions and briefs below, which had originally been filed
>> electronically, but especially so for transcripts (usually 4 pages per
>> page, with varying conventions on whether the second page was top right or
>> bottom left), last pages of affidavits & declarations (due to the
>> signature), and other evidence.
>>
>> The court never pushed back on the litigants when I complained about this.
>>
>> However, I think that if you were counsel on a case, and disclose that
>> you're blind and the format interferes with your ability to litigate, you
>> could file a motion to strike and compel compliance with both local rules
>> and reasonable cooperation as to the form and accessibility of the record.
>> Possibly even an FRE argument to be had.
>>
>> I would hope that most opposing counsel would cooperate with such a
>> request voluntarily without the need for a motion to compel, but from
>> experience I can say that isn't always true. In my own FOIA litigation –
>> despite insisting on native electronic records – agencies refused and only
>> gave me scans, even when it originated from an electronic document or
>> database. Infuriating.
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I think this would make for a good proposal to amend the Federal
>> Rules of Procedure (and Evidence) – require by default that all filings
>> and productions in discovery be accessible (except where impossible, like
>> photos), allow motion to compel for failure to do so, and allow sanctions
>> for knowing or post-warning/request failure.
>>
>> Anyone interested in working with me on such a proposal (or signing on
>> once it's in final draft)?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Sai
>> President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc.
>>
>> Sent from my phone; please excuse the concision & autocorrect typos.
>>
>>> On Feb 27, 2018 10:37, "Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>> I hope this message finds you well. One key challenge that I have
>>> been facing, since the time I started practicing law last year, is
>>> that I am often unable to seamlessly procure the information that is
>>> needed to answer a lawyer's questions when preparing for oral
>>> argument or during the course of the argument.
>>>
>>> I am not sure how these processes operate in the US, but in India,
>>> during the first few years of one's career, one spends a significant
>>> amount of time briefing senior lawyers who are slated to argue a
>>> given case. During such meetings, called conferences, you have to
>>> walk them through the facts of the case and, more importantly, help
>>> them identify the relevant annexures that form the subject matter of
>>> the dispute. These are usually in the shape of correspondence between
>>> the parties, notices and other pieces of information, depending on
>>> the nature of the case.
>>>
>>> Indian courts do make the pleadings available in full before
>>> argument, but these are typically in the form of inaccessible PDFs.
>>> While I am able to grasp the content of most written submissions on
>>> converting these documents into word, the quality of the conversion
>>> is typically quite bad insofar as other annexures are concerned.
>>>
>>> At the same time, it is infeasible to get everything read by a
>>> sighted person, as these files run into at least 3-400 pages and a
>>> large chunk of the material is irrelevant.
>>>
>>> Similarly, during the course of argument, judges often ask questions
>>> in order to answer which one has to be able to refer to the relevant
>>> documents in an expeditious and seamless way. As a junior lawyer, you
>>> are expected to help the arguing counsel in this pursuit. This also
>>> becomes challenging on account of the factors I outlined above.
>>>
>>> Finally, when you convert documents from pdf to word, the page
>>> numbering of the document goes haywire, so what was page 10 in the
>>> petition would be something totally different in your version. I am
>>> wondering if those of you who are seasoned litigators could comment
>>> on how you deal with these issues, in case you have faced them.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Rahul
>>>
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