[blindlaw] conducting investigations

Mon Nov 5 00:37:44 UTC 2018

A huge thanks to everyone who responded to my post about investigations. It didn't feel right when I was told that blind people can't conduct investigations well, but it's hard to argue when you're genuinely uninformed. I am now armed with some good information to start addressing the assumptions and getting myself trained up. I feel so fortunate to have this group.
Elizabeth
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: conducting investigations (Stewart, Christopher K)
2. Re: conducting investigations (Sai)
3. Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the workplace?
(Cody Davis)
4. Re: Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the workplace?
(Josh Loevy)
5. Re: Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the workplace?
(Aser Tolentino)
6. Re: Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the workplace?
(Cody Davis)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:02:15 -0500
From: "Stewart, Christopher K" <chris.stewart at uky.edu<mailto:chris.stewart at uky.edu>>
To: Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org<mailto:sai at fiatfiendum.org>>
Cc: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] conducting investigations
Message-ID:
<CAAyF1PBWwb2wLC8Wdy9_=AtgDwc=GGxUSKZ_2-a0Y-QSnpd9Sg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAAyF1PBWwb2wLC8Wdy9_=AtgDwc=GGxUSKZ_2-a0Y-QSnpd9Sg at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

That's really interesting info. And now that you mention it, it makes
a lot of sense. In fact, everything I pointed out about tone of voice,
body movement, Etc. are all things which require a baseline knowledge
of the person. They're also instances where the person's reactions
could, as you said, be the result of something completely different. I
know investigators who swear they can spot someone lying, but I
imagine that may well be confirmation bias. They tend to interview
criminals. Criminals frequently lye. They've caught many criminals
lying. Therefore their inclinations must have been correct.

Anyhow, thanks for the info.

On 11/1/18, Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org<mailto:sai at fiatfiendum.org>> wrote:
> FWIW: the research on this (which I know fairly well because it was
> related to my master's thesis and also to my litigation about TSA's SPOT
> program) is pretty solidly in favor of one conclusion:
>
> There does not exist any reliable way to detect lies, short of using an
> fMRI scanner. The best results shown to date are barely even
> statistically significant (let alone practically), and even those are
> only in highly controlled and unnatural settings.
>
>
> There are somewhat reliable ways to detect *emotions*, but they rely
> substantially on knowing that specific person's baseline. So e.g. you
> could detect that someone is nervous, angry, smug, etc.
>
>
> However, knowing that emotion doesn't tell you whether they're lying or
> not.
>
> Suppose e.g. that someone in a police interrogation room responds with
> fear when accused of raping someone. Are they afraid of being caught?
> Afraid of a false accusation? Reminded of a traumatic personal history?
> Afraid of perceived aggression? Randomly thinking about something else?
> Claustrophobic? Afraid they'll get a shiv while locked up? Afraid for
> what might happen to their family? Afraid of being caught in an actual
> lie? Afraid the cop will do a search and find the (totally unrelated)
> crack rock in their sock? Etc. etc.
>
>
> There are simply too many possible reasons someone can experience an
> emotion. Without knowing that specific person very, very well, you can't
> correctly make the jump (as various agencies would like to do) from
> "expression of fear" to "sign of guilt".
>
> Same is true for every symptom you listed.
>
> Same is true for a polygraph, which is why it's inadmissible. It's pure
> bullshit whose effects rely entirely on whether the subject believes it,
> and whether you care about the risk of false confessions.
>
> "Gut feeling" has been repeatedly proven to be not just wrong, but often
> worse than wrong ? it heavily plays into confirmation bias, bigotry,
> etc. Results are no better for "experienced" people like cops & judges.
>
>
> If you want to catch someone in a lie, you have to rely on logic,
> contradictory evidence, etc. Not whether or not the person fidgets.
>
> (Maybe your chairs are uncomfortable, or they need to go pee?)
>
>
> I've attached some recent meta-analysis papers on the subject in case
> you want to read for yourself.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sai
> President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc.
>
> On 10/31/18 16:48, Stewart, Christopher K via BlindLaw wrote:
>> This claim is ableist and absurd. First, many common tells of lying
>> are readily detectable to a blind person: throat clearing; vocal
>> tension; shallower breathing; fidgiting or feet shuffling; over
>> verbosity; unnatural hesitations inconsistent with the rest of their
>> answers. I could go on and on. The notion that because we can't see
>> one or two visual cues we can't spot a falsehood is ridiculous.
>>
>> Moreover, in investigative work, experienced investigators will tell
>> you they often follow their gut. Of course blind people have gut
>> instincts as well. But at the end of the day, as lawyers, what our gut
>> says doesn't matter, it's what the testimony and the facts reveal.
>> That's the record we work with. I've seen seasoned lawyers go down
>> rabbit holes in depositions that leave me scratching my head, knowing
>> they just waisted their time and didn't get what they were after. It
>> happens, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can see.
>>
>> Best,
>> Chris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sai@fiatfiendum.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sai@fiatfiendum.org>
>>
>

--
Chris K. Stewart
Attorney at Law
KBA #97351
Ph:
(502)457-1757

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:21:41 +0100
From: Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org<mailto:sai at fiatfiendum.org>>
To: "Stewart, Christopher K" <chris.stewart at uky.edu<mailto:chris.stewart at uky.edu>>
Cc: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] conducting investigations
Message-ID:
<CAHs-R5yUTWud6Ms1wUd62LhWx2k9yNf2Fxq7RfFXEqm6NmPC6w at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAHs-R5yUTWud6Ms1wUd62LhWx2k9yNf2Fxq7RfFXEqm6NmPC6w at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

> They tend to interview criminals.

*Alleged* criminals entitled to, but rarely receiving, presumption of
Innocence.

One of the compounding problems is that the people targeted for
investigation to begin with are a hugely skewed group. They then get pushed
to plea, even if innocent, which in turn makes the prosecution think they
were right, and feeds that cycle ? completely regardless of actual accuracy.

Which is why e.g. an experienced cop may well have a completely sincere and
good faith "gut feeling" that the black guy did it and is lying, and not
even be (consciously) racist, but still be wrong.

Allowing this kind of totally spurious yet sincerely believed
pseudo-evidence into the process, anywhere, inevitably and systemically
worsens biases.

Blinding (in the other sense) is actually one of the few things that
provably improves your lie detection ability, because you don't get exposed
to distractor information that would bias your logic.

So if you're blind and can't see their mannerisms etc., that "disability"
is actually a *good* thing for your ability to get to the truth.

Ironic, and a bit of a pun? but it's true.

Sincerely,
Sai

Sent from my phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect typos.

On Nov 1, 2018 15:02, "Stewart, Christopher K" <chris.stewart at uky.edu<mailto:chris.stewart at uky.edu>>
wrote:

That's really interesting info. And now that you mention it, it makes
a lot of sense. In fact, everything I pointed out about tone of voice,
body movement, Etc. are all things which require a baseline knowledge
of the person. They're also instances where the person's reactions
could, as you said, be the result of something completely different. I
know investigators who swear they can spot someone lying, but I
imagine that may well be confirmation bias. They tend to interview
criminals. Criminals frequently lye. They've caught many criminals
lying. Therefore their inclinations must have been correct.

Anyhow, thanks for the info.

On 11/1/18, Sai <sai at fiatfiendum.org<mailto:sai at fiatfiendum.org>> wrote:
> FWIW: the research on this (which I know fairly well because it was
> related to my master's thesis and also to my litigation about TSA's SPOT
> program) is pretty solidly in favor of one conclusion:
>
> There does not exist any reliable way to detect lies, short of using an
> fMRI scanner. The best results shown to date are barely even
> statistically significant (let alone practically), and even those are
> only in highly controlled and unnatural settings.
>
>
> There are somewhat reliable ways to detect *emotions*, but they rely
> substantially on knowing that specific person's baseline. So e.g. you
> could detect that someone is nervous, angry, smug, etc.
>
>
> However, knowing that emotion doesn't tell you whether they're lying or
> not.
>
> Suppose e.g. that someone in a police interrogation room responds with
> fear when accused of raping someone. Are they afraid of being caught?
> Afraid of a false accusation? Reminded of a traumatic personal history?
> Afraid of perceived aggression? Randomly thinking about something else?
> Claustrophobic? Afraid they'll get a shiv while locked up? Afraid for
> what might happen to their family? Afraid of being caught in an actual
> lie? Afraid the cop will do a search and find the (totally unrelated)
> crack rock in their sock? Etc. etc.
>
>
> There are simply too many possible reasons someone can experience an
> emotion. Without knowing that specific person very, very well, you can't
> correctly make the jump (as various agencies would like to do) from
> "expression of fear" to "sign of guilt".
>
> Same is true for every symptom you listed.
>
> Same is true for a polygraph, which is why it's inadmissible. It's pure
> bullshit whose effects rely entirely on whether the subject believes it,
> and whether you care about the risk of false confessions.
>
> "Gut feeling" has been repeatedly proven to be not just wrong, but often
> worse than wrong ? it heavily plays into confirmation bias, bigotry,
> etc. Results are no better for "experienced" people like cops & judges.
>
>
> If you want to catch someone in a lie, you have to rely on logic,
> contradictory evidence, etc. Not whether or not the person fidgets.
>
> (Maybe your chairs are uncomfortable, or they need to go pee?)
>
>
> I've attached some recent meta-analysis papers on the subject in case
> you want to read for yourself.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sai
> President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc.
>
> On 10/31/18 16:48, Stewart, Christopher K via BlindLaw wrote:
>> This claim is ableist and absurd. First, many common tells of lying
>> are readily detectable to a blind person: throat clearing; vocal
>> tension; shallower breathing; fidgiting or feet shuffling; over
>> verbosity; unnatural hesitations inconsistent with the rest of their
>> answers. I could go on and on. The notion that because we can't see
>> one or two visual cues we can't spot a falsehood is ridiculous.
>>
>> Moreover, in investigative work, experienced investigators will tell
>> you they often follow their gut. Of course blind people have gut
>> instincts as well. But at the end of the day, as lawyers, what our gut
>> says doesn't matter, it's what the testimony and the facts reveal.
>> That's the record we work with. I've seen seasoned lawyers go down
>> rabbit holes in depositions that leave me scratching my head, knowing
>> they just waisted their time and didn't get what they were after. It
>> happens, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can see.
>>
>> Best,
>> Chris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sai@fiatfiendum.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sai@fiatfiendum.org>
>>
>

--
Chris K. Stewart
Attorney at Law
KBA #97351
Ph:
(502)457-1757

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:38:38 -0400
From: Cody Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: [blindlaw] Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the
workplace?
Message-ID: <70BCBA47-3083-4D83-A2D5-5746D02F3A89 at gmail.com<mailto:70BCBA47-3083-4D83-A2D5-5746D02F3A89 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

All,

Does anyone have any experience using an iPad Pro with Voiceover as a laptop replacement at work? I?m curious how viable of an option that would be. Did you have to use it along with a desktop, or were you able to use the iPad as your primary computer.?

In your experience, if the iPad Pro a redundancy if I am already using an iPhone?

Thanks for any input.

Respectfully,
Cody J. Davis, J.D., M.P.A.
Email: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
Phone: (919) 349-9799
Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq<http://www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500
From: Josh Loevy <joshl at loevy.com<mailto:joshl at loevy.com>>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the
workplace?
Message-ID: <55426b618e03829154bb6e678df65951 at mail.gmail.com<mailto:55426b618e03829154bb6e678df65951 at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

If I may add an addendum to this question...
If you are using IOS as a laptop sub, can you speak to the word processing
experience specifically? I have heard good things about Scrivener as a
legal writing tool, has anyone used that?
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 08:49:46 -0700
From: Aser Tolentino <agtolentino at gmail.com<mailto:agtolentino at gmail.com>>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the
workplace?
Message-ID: <11648D1C-B9F2-4D5D-9895-82690E241CD7 at gmail.com<mailto:11648D1C-B9F2-4D5D-9895-82690E241CD7 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Good morning,

I like to think of the iPad Pro like the F/A-22 Raptor. It?s really sleek and sexy and does some things incredibly well, and some things less well. I occasionally get into a mood where I do as much on iOS as possible, but even though the smart keyboard and split screen do a lot to make iOS more multitasking friendly then it used to be, I would still say that it?s nothing like sitting in front of my laptop alt-tabbing between the web, two documents, email and a book. Scrivener is really cool, in fact I?m going to start a book on it for National Novel Writing Month today on an iPad, but I think to fully take advantage of it, you?d want to run it on a Mac: the PC version doesn?t work with JAWS.

Because of the split-screen functionality, I would say there are advantages to the iPad over the phone, particularly if you have some sight, but mileage may vary there. I like taking notes on the iPhone but ultimately always return to Word for a more responsive and fleshed out proofing experience. Apps like Drafts that sync to the cloud make this workflow really smooth. Anyway, those are just my two cents. Please let me know if you have any questions you think I can help out with.

Respectfully,
Aser Tolentino, Esq.

> On Nov 1, 2018, at 08:38, Cody Davis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Does anyone have any experience using an iPad Pro with Voiceover as a laptop replacement at work? I?m curious how viable of an option that would be. Did you have to use it along with a desktop, or were you able to use the iPad as your primary computer.?
>
> In your experience, if the iPad Pro a redundancy if I am already using an iPhone?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
>
> Respectfully,
> Cody J. Davis, J.D., M.P.A.
> Email: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
> Phone: (919) 349-9799
> Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq<http://www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino@gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino@gmail.com>

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:53:46 -0400
From: Cody Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Anyone using iPad as laptop replacement in the
workplace?
Message-ID: <F01D0A2E-3392-4390-A78C-90992720E1B0 at gmail.com<mailto:F01D0A2E-3392-4390-A78C-90992720E1B0 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Thanks for that input.

Respectfully,
Cody J. Davis, J.D., M.P.A.
Email: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
Phone: (919) 349-9799
Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq<http://www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq>

> On Nov 1, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> I like to think of the iPad Pro like the F/A-22 Raptor. It?s really sleek and sexy and does some things incredibly well, and some things less well. I occasionally get into a mood where I do as much on iOS as possible, but even though the smart keyboard and split screen do a lot to make iOS more multitasking friendly then it used to be, I would still say that it?s nothing like sitting in front of my laptop alt-tabbing between the web, two documents, email and a book. Scrivener is really cool, in fact I?m going to start a book on it for National Novel Writing Month today on an iPad, but I think to fully take advantage of it, you?d want to run it on a Mac: the PC version doesn?t work with JAWS.
>
> Because of the split-screen functionality, I would say there are advantages to the iPad over the phone, particularly if you have some sight, but mileage may vary there. I like taking notes on the iPhone but ultimately always return to Word for a more responsive and fleshed out proofing experience. Apps like Drafts that sync to the cloud make this workflow really smooth. Anyway, those are just my two cents. Please let me know if you have any questions you think I can help out with.
>
> Respectfully,
> Aser Tolentino, Esq.
>
>> On Nov 1, 2018, at 08:38, Cody Davis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience using an iPad Pro with Voiceover as a laptop replacement at work? I?m curious how viable of an option that would be. Did you have to use it along with a desktop, or were you able to use the iPad as your primary computer.?
>>
>> In your experience, if the iPad Pro a redundancy if I am already using an iPhone?
>>
>> Thanks for any input.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Cody J. Davis, J.D., M.P.A.
>> Email: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com<mailto:cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
>> Phone: (919) 349-9799
>> Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq<http://www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino@gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino@gmail.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193@gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193@gmail.com>

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