[blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track Changes

Fri Apr 12 15:08:03 UTC 2019

Laura, my apologies. I was reading too fast. The issue I have with long comments and revisions is not the one described in #8. In the virtual viewer, JAWS will stop reading after a while. For comments, I have started creating plain-text versions of documents. The comments show up at the end, and I can read them that way.

From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:03 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Angela Matney <amatney at loeb.com>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track Changes

Laura,

I have the problem described in #8 with comments and revisions in the virtual viewer as well.

Angie

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From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track Changes

Here are the issues about which VFO and Microsoft are aware and
actively working on:

1. virtual viewer does not show more than approximately 150 revisions.
Also impacts the list tracked change feature.
2. Jaws occasionally reading both the old and the revised text.
3. Revisions of footnotes don’t show up in virtual viewer at all.
4. Jaws becomes sluggish when editing footnotes, headers and footers, comments.
5. Inability to select text in footnotes, headers and footers, comment bubbles.
6. Always showing dots 7-8 in footnotes on a Braille display.
7. Braille cursor routing keys do not work correctly when editing footnotes.
8. If footnotes are long, Braille display will stop reading after a
certain point.
9. Jaws will report a revision at the beginning of the line, rather
than announcing the revision exactly where the revised text occurs.
10. Call numbers of footnotes not being read in the footnote pane.
11. When switching from show all mark-up to no-markup, hidden
properties are still read, requiring a manual refresh.

Laura

On 4/12/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> As I've said, the folks from VFO and Microsoft are now aware of the editing
> and sluggishness problems and have reproduced them. I am going to work with
> them on the beta test to make sure as many of these issues as possible get
> addressed in the next release. If you have the latest build of Jaws and are
> encountering problems that we have not discussed in this thread already,
> please let me know as soon as possible. Angie, I'll try to re-create the
> problem you just described when I get to work.
> One thing I'll say is that, unsurprisingly, Microsoft is interested in
> making their fixes beginning with the latest build. I think we will
> probably need to be prepared to advocate for upgrades at our jobs.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 8:42 AM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I have the same issues (or at least, most of them) with comments and
>> footnotes. I have taken to composing comments in Notepad and then pasting
>> them in. For some reason, if I have the document set to "print" view,
>> pasting doesn't seem to work. This hasn't always been an issue, but at
>> least with the last update of JAWS, if I try to add a comment while I'm in
>> print view, the title bar will say "Revisions pane," the paste command
>> will not work, and I end up with an empty comment in my document.
>> Sometimes, I can edit and delete comments; sometimes, these menu options
>> aren't available.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:01 PM, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have not experienced this. I can enter, edit, and remove comments
>>> written by myself and by colleagues. I rely on the next and previous
>>> buttons on the menu to navigate among comments. Once in the comment pane,
>>> I do notice that JAWS' performance seems inexplicably to slow down, but I
>>> can edit as I would usually do
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon
>>> Dillon via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:42 PM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Cc: Shannon Dillon
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track
>>> Changes
>>>
>>> I noticed the other day when I was trying to edit text in a comment, that
>>> it hi had The same problem as I do in footnotes. I can’t select words. As
>>> I press control shift right arrow, or shift right arrow, the word or
>>> character is selected and then and selected. So I can never select a
>>> block of text been deleted. I have to use the delete key by itself and go
>>> through to delete the whole comment. I was wondering if anyone else also
>>> has a problem getting into an already written comment to edit it. And do
>>> you have problems deleting comments? I have problems with both of these
>>> things. I can create a new comment. But I am an able to get into a
>>> comment I have written to edit it.
>>> And I can’t always delete comments. When I do I’m not exactly sure how I
>>> was able to make it happen. It’s a total fluke.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 23, 2018, at 3:22 PM, Deepa Goraya via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I experience this issue with PDFs as well.
>>>>
>>>> Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rahul
>>>> Bajaj
>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:58 AM
>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>> Cc: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com<mailto:rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>>; tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> 1. First of all, let me say how glad I am that this issue is getting
>>>> the
>>>> much-needed attention that it deserves. Until a few months ago, Freedom
>>>> Scientific simply refused to acknowledge that the sporadic functioning
>>>> of
>>>> the virtual viewer for accessing a list of revisions was an issue which
>>>> they
>>>> could address. It was only after some of us reached out to them that we
>>>> were
>>>> able to move past the point where JAWS would simply say that there were
>>>> no
>>>> revisions in a document when the number of revisions exceeded 100. So I
>>>> am
>>>> confident that we will be able to get all outstanding issues resolved if
>>>> we
>>>> are able to make good the claim that the inaccessibility of track
>>>> changes
>>>> impacts a critical mass of blind people.
>>>>
>>>> 2. I echo the challenges that Laura voiced in using footnotes - the
>>>> general
>>>> sluggishness of JAWS, coupled with the fact that it is very difficult
>>>> to
>>>> edit them or to ascertain their number.
>>>> 3. One significant issue which I have been grappling with for the last
>>>> 3-4 months is the inaccessibility of PDF documents with JAWS - when
>>>> used
>>>> with Adobe Reader, JAWS throws you back by many pages if you try going
>>>> up a
>>>> line and doesn't enable you to read a document in a para-wise fashion.
>>>> All
>>>> that you can realistically do, except for using the OCR feature or
>>>> converting the document into Word, is to use the say-all command or
>>>> navigate
>>>> the document line-by-line, both of which are highly inefficient ways to
>>>> read
>>>> a document. I reached out to Vispero about this, and they attributed
>>>> the
>>>> problem to Adobe. I have been communicating with Adobe accessibility
>>>> team
>>>> for the last month, but they haven't really taken this issue seriously,
>>>> as
>>>> it appears that not many people have reported the issue. So I
>>>> wholeheartedly
>>>> agree with Laura when she says that we need to act collectively on
>>>> these
>>>> issues, if we want to be taken seriously.
>>>>
>>>> I am happy to help in whatever way I can, including by way of supplying
>>>> a
>>>> sample document with many revisions in it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Rahul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br /> <table
>>>> style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
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>>>> ng<https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.p%0b%3e%3e%3e%3e%20ng>"
>>>> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
>>>> /></a></td>
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>>>> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
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>>>> target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a<http://www.avg.com%3c/a>>
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>>>> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>>>> height="1"></a></div>
>>>>
>>>>> On 19/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any
>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also
>>>>>
>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original
>>>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't
>>>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows
>>>>>
>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws
>>>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can
>>>>>
>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's
>>>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user
>>>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome
>>>>> character-by-character analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried
>>>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out
>>>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page
>>>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer
>>>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes.
>>>>>
>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file
>>>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this
>>>>> could accompany the NABL letter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre <slabarre at labarrelaw.com<mailto:slabarre at labarrelaw.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest
>>>>>> and I am going to work on a letter from the National Association of
>>>>>> Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will likely also write
>>>>>> MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to wish all of you the very
>>>>>> best of this holiday season.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Tim Elder
>>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if
>>>>>> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of
>>>>>> JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly learning
>>>>>> NVDA to diversify my technology tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM
>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as
>>>>>> the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round
>>>>>> of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my
>>>>>> work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us
>>>>>> the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, <tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>>
>>>>>> <tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in
>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an
>>>>>> option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of
>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this
>>>>>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions.
>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will
>>>>>>> announce a
>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is
>>>>>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions to
>>>>>> display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives the
>>>>>> false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at every
>>>>>> revision when there could be a hundred more that are not displaying
>>>>>> that you haven't reviewed. note that though this isn't a terrible
>>>>>> inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into one draft
>>>>>> from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving
>>>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying
>>>>>> to accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be
>>>>>> forewarned, Jaws is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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