[blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track Changes

Tai Tomasi ttomasi at driowa.org
Fri Apr 12 17:05:38 UTC 2019 

I have the same difficulty, and often have to arrow through character by character to determine what has been inserted or deleted. Not efficient at all.

Tai Tomasi, J.D.
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:01 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Shannon Dillon <shannonldillon at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track Changes

When I am trying to read revisions in track changes, I also have difficulty distinguishing which text has been deleted and which has been added. It jumbles all the words together and I can’t tell what was deleted or added. Or does someone have a workaround for that? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Laura, my apologies. I was reading too fast. The issue I have with long comments and revisions is not the one described in #8. In the virtual viewer, JAWS will stop reading after a while. For comments, I have started creating plain-text versions of documents. The comments show up at the end, and I can read them that way.
> 
> 
> 
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angela 
> Matney via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:03 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Angela Matney <amatney at loeb.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track 
> Changes
> 
> 
> 
> Laura,
> 
> I have the problem described in #8 with comments and revisions in the virtual viewer as well.
> 
> Angie
> 
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> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk 
> via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:24 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and Track 
> Changes
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the issues about which VFO and Microsoft are aware and 
> actively working on:
> 
> 1. virtual viewer does not show more than approximately 150 revisions.
> Also impacts the list tracked change feature.
> 2. Jaws occasionally reading both the old and the revised text.
> 3. Revisions of footnotes don’t show up in virtual viewer at all.
> 4. Jaws becomes sluggish when editing footnotes, headers and footers, comments.
> 5. Inability to select text in footnotes, headers and footers, comment bubbles.
> 6. Always showing dots 7-8 in footnotes on a Braille display.
> 7. Braille cursor routing keys do not work correctly when editing footnotes.
> 8. If footnotes are long, Braille display will stop reading after a 
> certain point.
> 9. Jaws will report a revision at the beginning of the line, rather 
> than announcing the revision exactly where the revised text occurs.
> 10. Call numbers of footnotes not being read in the footnote pane.
> 11. When switching from show all mark-up to no-markup, hidden 
> properties are still read, requiring a manual refresh.
> 
> Laura
> 
> 
>> On 4/12/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As I've said, the folks from VFO and Microsoft are now aware of the 
>> editing and sluggishness problems and have reproduced them. I am 
>> going to work with them on the beta test to make sure as many of 
>> these issues as possible get addressed in the next release. If you 
>> have the latest build of Jaws and are encountering problems that we 
>> have not discussed in this thread already, please let me know as soon 
>> as possible. Angie, I'll try to re-create the problem you just described when I get to work.
>> One thing I'll say is that, unsurprisingly, Microsoft is interested 
>> in making their fixes beginning with the latest build. I think we 
>> will probably need to be prepared to advocate for upgrades at our jobs.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 8:42 AM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw 
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have the same issues (or at least, most of them) with comments and 
>>> footnotes. I have taken to composing comments in Notepad and then 
>>> pasting them in. For some reason, if I have the document set to 
>>> "print" view, pasting doesn't seem to work. This hasn't always been 
>>> an issue, but at least with the last update of JAWS, if I try to add 
>>> a comment while I'm in print view, the title bar will say "Revisions 
>>> pane," the paste command will not work, and I end up with an empty comment in my document.
>>> Sometimes, I can edit and delete comments; sometimes, these menu 
>>> options aren't available.
>>> 
>>> Angie
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:01 PM, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw 
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have not experienced this. I can enter, edit, and remove comments 
>>>> written by myself and by colleagues. I rely on the next and 
>>>> previous buttons on the menu to navigate among comments. Once in 
>>>> the comment pane, I do notice that JAWS' performance seems 
>>>> inexplicably to slow down, but I can edit as I would usually do
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Shannon Dillon via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:42 PM
>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Shannon Dillon
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] [blindlaw editing comments with Jaws and 
>>>> Track Changes
>>>> 
>>>> I noticed the other day when I was trying to edit text in a 
>>>> comment, that it hi had The same problem as I do in footnotes. I 
>>>> can’t select words. As I press control shift right arrow, or shift 
>>>> right arrow, the word or character is selected and then and 
>>>> selected. So I can never select a block of text been deleted. I 
>>>> have to use the delete key by itself and go through to delete the 
>>>> whole comment. I was wondering if anyone else also has a problem 
>>>> getting into an already written comment to edit it. And do you have 
>>>> problems deleting comments? I have problems with both of these 
>>>> things. I can create a new comment. But I am an able to get into a comment I have written to edit it.
>>>> And I can’t always delete comments. When I do I’m not exactly sure 
>>>> how I was able to make it happen. It’s a total fluke.
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 23, 2018, at 3:22 PM, Deepa Goraya via BlindLaw 
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I experience this issue with PDFs as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:58 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List 
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Cc: Rahul Bajaj 
>>>>> <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com<mailto:rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>>; 
>>>>> tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. First of all, let me say how glad I am that this issue is 
>>>>> getting the much-needed attention that it deserves. Until a few 
>>>>> months ago, Freedom Scientific simply refused to acknowledge that 
>>>>> the sporadic functioning of the virtual viewer for accessing a 
>>>>> list of revisions was an issue which they could address. It was 
>>>>> only after some of us reached out to them that we were able to 
>>>>> move past the point where JAWS would simply say that there were no 
>>>>> revisions in a document when the number of revisions exceeded 100. 
>>>>> So I am confident that we will be able to get all outstanding 
>>>>> issues resolved if we are able to make good the claim that the 
>>>>> inaccessibility of track changes impacts a critical mass of blind 
>>>>> people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2. I echo the challenges that Laura voiced in using footnotes - 
>>>>> the general sluggishness of JAWS, coupled with the fact that it is 
>>>>> very difficult to edit them or to ascertain their number.
>>>>> 3. One significant issue which I have been grappling with for the 
>>>>> last
>>>>> 3-4 months is the inaccessibility of PDF documents with JAWS - 
>>>>> when used with Adobe Reader, JAWS throws you back by many pages if 
>>>>> you try going up a line and doesn't enable you to read a document 
>>>>> in a para-wise fashion.
>>>>> All
>>>>> that you can realistically do, except for using the OCR feature or 
>>>>> converting the document into Word, is to use the say-all command 
>>>>> or navigate the document line-by-line, both of which are highly 
>>>>> inefficient ways to read a document. I reached out to Vispero 
>>>>> about this, and they attributed the problem to Adobe. I have been 
>>>>> communicating with Adobe accessibility team for the last month, 
>>>>> but they haven't really taken this issue seriously, as it appears 
>>>>> that not many people have reported the issue. So I wholeheartedly 
>>>>> agree with Laura when she says that we need to act collectively on 
>>>>> these issues, if we want to be taken seriously.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am happy to help in whatever way I can, including by way of 
>>>>> supplying a sample document with many revisions in it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Rahul
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> <div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br /> <table
>>>>> style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;"> <tr> <td style="width: 
>>>>> 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a 
>>>>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
>>>>> ce=link&ut 
>>>>> m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut%0b%3e%3e%3e%3e%20m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>"
>>>>> target="_blank"><img
>>>>> src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-gree
>>>>> n-avg-v1.p 
>>>>> ng<https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.p%0b%3e%3e%3e%3e%20ng>"
>>>>> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
>>>>> /></a></td>
>>>>> <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
>>>>> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>>>>> line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a 
>>>>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
>>>>> ce=link&ut 
>>>>> m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut%0b%3e%3e%3e%3e%20m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>"
>>>>> target="_blank" style="color: 
>>>>> #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a<http://www.avg.com%3c/a>>
>>>>> </td>
>>>>> </tr>
>>>>> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>>>>> height="1"></a></div>
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 19/12/2018, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any 
>>>>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people 
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the 
>>>>>> original and edited text when you're reading through a document? 
>>>>>> This didn't used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using 
>>>>>> Office 2016, Windows
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that 
>>>>>> Jaws doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track 
>>>>>> changes. Can
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the 
>>>>>> file's contents rather than the generated list also does not give 
>>>>>> the user accurate information unless he engages in rather 
>>>>>> cumbersome character-by-character analysis.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I 
>>>>>> tried hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually 
>>>>>> turned out fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of 
>>>>>> a 25-page document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were 
>>>>>> probably closer to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a 
>>>>>> file with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. 
>>>>>> Perhaps this could accompany the NABL letter.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre <slabarre at labarrelaw.com<mailto:slabarre at labarrelaw.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great 
>>>>>>> interest and I am going to work on a letter from the National 
>>>>>>> Association of Blind Lawyers to VFO about this issue and will 
>>>>>>> likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also take this moment to 
>>>>>>> wish all of you the very best of this holiday season.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw 
>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> > On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' 
>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if 
>>>>>>> they could do anything while we wait on whatever the developer 
>>>>>>> of JAWS is calling itself these days. I've also been slowly 
>>>>>>> learning NVDA to diversify my technology tools.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk 
>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List 
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much 
>>>>>>> as the newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with 
>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> a hundred or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every 
>>>>>>> round of editing a brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 
>>>>>>> was my work-around for 6 years. But I'm really getting fed up. 
>>>>>>> It'd be great
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> if we all colectively could put pressure on Jaws to actually 
>>>>>>> give us the tools we need to succeed and be on equal footing with our peers.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, 
>>>>>>>> <tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>>
>>>>>>> <tim at timeldermusic.com<mailto:tim at timeldermusic.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work 
>>>>>>>> reliably in
>>>>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is 
>>>>>>> an option.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Laura Wolk 
>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List 
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of 
>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this
>>>>>>> $1,000 disappointment to his professional detriment.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions.
>>>>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will 
>>>>>>>> announce a
>>>>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is 
>>>>>>> actually worse than when it simply said there were no revisions 
>>>>>>> to display, since we all knew that was incorrect. now it gives 
>>>>>>> the false sense of security that you have, in fact, looked at 
>>>>>>> every revision when there could be a hundred more that are not 
>>>>>>> displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though this 
>>>>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all 
>>>>>>> changes into one draft from only one document, it is a huge 
>>>>>>> problem if you are receiving multiple streams of edits from 
>>>>>>> multiple sources that you are trying to accept/reject and then 
>>>>>>> compile into one final draft. So be forewarned, Jaws is sstill 
>>>>>>> failing abysmally at providing us with the
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> elementary tools needed in 2018 to maintain "Job access."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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