[blindLaw] ABYY FineReader Stability with Jaws?

Tue Aug 6 14:52:03 UTC 2019

I'm using Adobe Pro, Continuous Release.  I'm going to try batch
converting with ABBYY FineReader later today.  I'm glad to hear
pagination is preserved.  I'll let you know my results!

On 8/6/19, Angela Matney <amatney at loeb.com> wrote:
> Laura, I don’t typically confer to another PDF either. I take your point in
> the other message that the time can add up. I’m just not sure that for me,
> it adds up to be significant. If I have more than one large document to deal
> with, I will start work on one while converting the other(s). But to be
> clear, I’m not saying we shouldn’t work to get Vispero and Adobe to address
> issues affecting the stability of the two products. I only meant that the
> time factor of converting documents may not be as significant as it might
> seem, particularly if Abbyy / Omnipage / PowerPDF can do this much faster
> than Kurzweil.
>
> As for formats, I generally save to Word, and in many cases, pagination is
> preserved. I experienced this yesterday. A colleague sent me a PDF of a
> signed agreement and told me the part I needed to work with started on Page
> 26. I ran it through PowerPDF, and when I got my Word version, I was able to
> jump straight to page 26 and begin work on my assignment. I don’t have to
> deal with line numbers in what I do, though, so (as with so many things
> related to access technology) YMMV.
>
> Also, sorry if I’ve missed this, but which Adobe product are you using?
> Acrobat?
>
> It seems to me there are several facets of PDF accessibility that we could
> work to address. One question: Is it possible to realize the benefits people
> get from saving PDFs as images by saving them as secure PDFs and allowing
> screen readers to be able to interact with them? I think these security
> settings exist but I really don’t know much about this topic. Of course,
> stability between JAWS and Acrobat would be essential for this method to be
> effective.
>
> Angie
>
>
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> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Monday, August 5, 2019 6:33 PM
> To: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>; Blind Law Mailing List
> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] ABYY FineReader Stability with Jaws?
>
>
>
> Rahul has hit it on the head, as usual, especially the part about
> decoupling the issues with image-based versus text-based files. In a
> searchable pdf, you can copy and paste directly as well. Except that
> you have the added benefit that formatting comes with it, so you don't
> have to go back and reitalicize things, etc. And we need to preserve
> page numbers, as that is how things are cited in the U.S., which in my
> understanding are not preserved in text documents.
>
> On 8/5/19, Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Relying on para numbers is also often not a viable solution. When
>> documents
>> are converted from pdf to word, para numbers often get lost in
>> translation,
>> such that they do not appear in the word version or appear irregularly.
>> This
>> also happens when you run them through JAWS’ native OCR functionality in
>> PDF
>> documents. I often had to sit with a sighted colleague and identify what
>> para number corresponded to what piece of information and then manually
>> insert this in the converted document, to be able to cite them correctly
>> in
>> my own written submissions.
>>
>> It would be instructive, imo, to decouple the issues with image-based
>> pdfs
>> and those with searchable pdfs. The former are caused by the pdf maker
>> not
>> saving the document the correct way, as I understand it. The latter flow
>> from a failure on the part of Adobe and Visperro to ensure that their
>> apps
>> work well with each other.
>>
>> When one has a meeting with a partner or a client in, say, 3 hours and a
>> 250-300 page file to negotiate, converting it into word documents is not
>> a
>> viable solution. I mostly do open with>word 2016 these days for most
>> pdfs.
>> But it sometimes does not work, inasmuch as the end product is
>> inaccessible.
>> When this happens, if the doc is under 100 pages or so, I email it to
>> myself
>> and view it as an html document.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Rahul
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 3:17 AM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> Briefly, as noted in my previous emails, I convert to text files, not
>>> to pdfs. I do this as follows:
>>> 1. I get the pdfs in a folder.
>>> 2. I select them and go to omnipage on the file menu and click convert
>>> to
>>> text.
>>> 3. My text files appear.
>>>
>>> It is a very simple process. Usually this takes a matter of a minute
>>> or 2. If you had 20 substantial files, it might take 5 minutes, maybe
>>> 10 minutes for 20 very large files.
>>>
>>> I've been doing this for years and I have found it effective.
>>>
>>> Converting to text files has the added benefit that you can copy and
>>> paste from the other side's documents.
>>>
>>> In this jurisdiction, legal documents such as submissions (what you
>>> would call briefs) affidavits etc. are generally numbered by paragraph
>>> and that helps a lot. However, I am high-lighting that on occasion you
>>> won't get the page numbers and that is a problem when it arises.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry if that's not helpful.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 8/5/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Why shouldn't we insist on Adobe creating a better OCR solution? Also,
>>>> the
>>>> issues being raised have to do with Jaws losing focus, inexplicably
>>>> jumping around the document, and not navigating properly as you scan
>>>> by paragraph or line. Unless i'm mistaken, that has nothing to do
>>>> with OCR capability. And if it does, then it only highlights that the
>>>> solutions provided by Jaws and Adobe are inadequate for the task,
>>>> since people are using these functions and still getting rather paltry
>>>> results. It also doesn't make sense, given that people have reported
>>>> a marked downturn in Adobe's performance as of late with Jaws. So
>>>> perhaps the issue is we're simply discussing two different things.
>>>>
>>>> As for my previous email, thank you for bringing your interpretation
>>>> of it to my attention. However, I've reread it, and I don't think
>>>> there is anything disrespectful about its tone, except perhaps that I
>>>> didn't give exact concrete data about how many files I'm dealing with
>>>> and how frequently assignments are given and expected back the same
>>>> day. The suggested overnight solution is just not viable. And I
>>>> don't think it would be viable in many competitive high-paced working
>>>> environments. (Again, I am in no way commenting on your own personal
>>>> working environment. I'm making a general statement based on the
>>>> general proposition that, oftentimes in high-paced environments,
>>>> associates are given hours not a full business day or overnight to
>>>> complete a task, and these minutes add up). I hope that clarifies my
>>>> point.
>>>>
>>>> Angie, I do get your point, and thank you. My point is, if you take
>>>> those minutes, let's just say even five minutes per document, or even
>>>> 3, and then say you have to review twenty files. Those minutes add up
>>>> quite quickly. Just like the track change issue. Sure, if you've got
>>>> ten to review, no big deal. When you're talking about 600 changes, it
>>>> matters
>>>> a whole lot more. So I completely hear you, but just like at some
>>>> point the "a little extra time" approach to track changes veers into
>>>> "I can't actually or I am severely struggling to complete my duties"
>>>> territory, so too with converting pdfs. And again, my main point
>>>> doesn't even have to do with converting. It has to do with the fact
>>>> that I have a pdf that Adobe is reading just fine. It's not
>>>> presenting as blank or empty. But in the course of reading, Jaws
>>>> becomes frenetic and starts jumping all over the document. This
>>>> happens with multiple documents, and others have stated they
>>>> experience the same. It seems like there must be a solution to this
>>>> that does not involve saving to another doc type (since Adobe seems
>>>> able to read it), but only involves stabilizing Adobe and Jaws.
>>>>
>>>> For that reason, I'm still interested in your and Ger's experience
>>>> using Nuance to batch
>>>> convert. Did you or do you have the issue of Jaws jumping around when
>>>> you do not use Nuance to first convert the pdf to another pdf? Does
>>>> Adobe appear more stable when you're using a nuance-converted pdf?
>>>> Ger, it sounds like you are not having the issues that I am
>>>> describing. So if you are using Nuance to ocr and tag documents and
>>>> those documents are then stable in Adobe, that would be a wonderful
>>>> and welcome development!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/5/19, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Angie’s comments are well made. I would only add that if the document
>>>>> contains paragraph numbers those are a good and reliable reference
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon 5 Aug 2019 at 20:52 Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura, one quick observation: Without addressing the need for
>>>>>> precision
>>>>>> when, say, referring to line numbers or making other references to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> PDFs
>>>>>> that are required for your job, I just want to add that converting
>>>>>> files
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> another format may not take the amount of time one might expect,
>>>>>> particularly if you use a mainstream solution. I don’t know how long
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> takes Kurzweil to convert a PDF because I don’t use that product. In
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> past, I’ve used Abbyy Finereader; nowadays, I use Nuance Power PDF.
>>>>>> Each
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> these can OCR a file of several hundred pages in a matter of minutes
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> give good results, barring handwriting or other unusual attributes of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> file. I’m in no way saying that we don’t need a better way to access
>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>> files directly; I’m just suggesting that converting a PDF to Word or
>>>>>> another format of choice isn’t necessarily a process that takes hours
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said this, it’s certainly true that if you have many, many
>>>>>> files,
>>>>>> there will be a good amount of time involved. This has happened to me
>>>>>> before (involving due diligence for a merger and documents from the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> side’s data room). But I’m not sure that the method I used ultimately
>>>>>> took
>>>>>> more time than I would have spent performing OCR on the PDFs, which
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> have had to be done in any case because they were images.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t comment on using any of these applications to read PDFs
>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>> In my mind, converting files to another format is analogous to
>>>>>> printing
>>>>>> vs
>>>>>> reading the PDF on-screen, and while it’s not perfect, it generally
>>>>>> works
>>>>>> for my purposes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you’re able to find a solution quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300
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>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents,
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>>>>>> to
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>>>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please
>>>>>> destroy
>>>>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or
>>>>>> saving
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
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>>>>> --
>>>>> null
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