[blindLaw] JAWS Loosing its Place when Reading PDF's in Acrobat

Wed Aug 7 04:02:36 UTC 2019

I suspect that is because Steve’s suggestion, as I understand it, relates to a situation when JAWS loses focus due to a Windows 10 notification. Your problem, however, relates to focus being lost within the document itself, not owing to an external intruder.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:24 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm sad to report that I am still having Jaws jump around, and I'm not
> getting any "lost focus" errors.  But this is still good info to pass
> along!
> 
>> On 8/6/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Steve, this is brilliant!  I will try this right away when I get to
>> work and get back to you with results.  Thanks for the great idea!
>> 
>>> On 8/5/19, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Laura,
>>> 
>>> I am suspicious that what is happening for you is that JAWS is loosing
>>> focus
>>> when you are reading a document and that it is loosing its place in the
>>> virtual buffer containing the text within the PDF document.  JAWS seems
>>> to
>>> be having a lot of trouble these days maintaining focus.  It is partly a
>>> bigger issue now because of the various types of notifications provided
>>> by
>>> Windows 10.  Although many of us have often heard the "Focus Lost"
>>> announcement, that can be turned off for specific applications.  To
>>> determine if my guess holds any water at all, open up a PDF document.
>>> When
>>> it is open, bring up the quick settings menu with JAWSKey and the letter
>>> "V".  Then, press the letter f by itself multiple times until you hear
>>> "Focus Lost Announcement".  If that box is unchecked as it is in my case
>>> with Acrobat-DC running, you will not hear any announcements that focus
>>> was
>>> lost.  If you check that setting, then you should actually hear that
>>> focus
>>> was lost.  This will not fix the problem and it could quickly get very
>>> annoying, but it might allow you to determine if the issue of JAWS
>>> loosing
>>> its place is due to the "Focus Lost" issue.
>>> 
>>> If it turns out that this is at least part of the issue, then you can go
>>> to
>>> Vispero with a specific question like "How can I avoid loosing focus in
>>> Acrobat-DC".  Also, it would seem reasonable for JAWS to maintain its
>>> location on the virtual buffer through a lost focus event.
>>> 
>>> There was a time when JAWS would tend to loose its place on web pages if
>>> one
>>> jumped to another application and back.  There might be some variation of
>>> this still happening within PDF documents since they also make use of the
>>> virtual buffer.
>>> 
>>> If this is the issue, it is also possible that something is happening
>>> inside
>>> the adobe product that is momentarily confusing JAWS just long enough to
>>> cause it to loose its place.  That might well be an Adobe issue.  However,
>>> I
>>> think Vispero will have to help isolate that since Adobe doing something
>>> like that won't be apparent to the person reading the PDF document in all
>>> likelihood.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Monday, August 5, 2019 4:38 PM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] ABYY FineReader Stability with Jaws?
>>> 
>>> Why shouldn't we insist on Adobe creating a better OCR solution?  Also,
>>> the
>>> issues being raised have to do with Jaws losing focus, inexplicably
>>> jumping around the document, and not navigating properly as you scan
>>> by paragraph or line.  Unless i'm mistaken, that has nothing to do
>>> with OCR capability.  And if it does, then it only highlights that the
>>> solutions provided by Jaws and Adobe are inadequate for the task,
>>> since people are using these functions and still getting rather paltry
>>> results.  It also doesn't make sense, given that people have reported
>>> a marked downturn in Adobe's performance as of late with Jaws.  So
>>> perhaps the issue is we're simply discussing two different things.
>>> 
>>> As for my previous email, thank you for bringing your interpretation
>>> of it to my attention.  However, I've reread it, and I don't think
>>> there is anything disrespectful about its tone, except perhaps that I
>>> didn't give exact concrete data about how many files I'm dealing with
>>> and how frequently assignments are given and expected back the same
>>> day.  The suggested overnight solution is just not viable.  And I
>>> don't think it would be viable in many competitive high-paced working
>>> environments.   (Again, I am in no way commenting on your own personal
>>> working environment.  I'm making a general statement based on the
>>> general proposition that, oftentimes in high-paced environments,
>>> associates are given hours not a full business day or overnight to
>>> complete a task, and these minutes add up).  I hope that clarifies my
>>> point.
>>> 
>>> Angie, I do get your point, and thank you.  My point is, if you take
>>> those minutes, let's just say even five minutes per document, or even
>>> 3, and then say you have to review twenty files.  Those minutes add up
>>> quite quickly.  Just like the track change issue.  Sure, if you've got
>>> ten to review, no big deal.  When you're talking about 600 changes, it
>>> matters
>>> a whole lot more.  So I completely hear you, but just like at some
>>> point the "a little extra time" approach to track changes veers into
>>> "I can't actually or I am severely struggling to complete my duties"
>>> territory, so too with converting pdfs.  And again, my main point
>>> doesn't even have to do with converting.  It has to do with the fact
>>> that I have a pdf that Adobe is reading just fine.  It's not
>>> presenting as blank or empty.  But in the course of reading, Jaws
>>> becomes frenetic and starts jumping all over the document.  This
>>> happens with multiple documents, and others have stated they
>>> experience the same.  It seems like there must be a solution to this
>>> that does not involve saving to another doc type (since Adobe seems
>>> able to read it), but only involves stabilizing Adobe and Jaws.
>>> 
>>> For that reason, I'm still interested in your and Ger's experience
>>> using Nuance to batch
>>> convert.  Did you or do you have the issue of Jaws jumping around when
>>> you do not use Nuance to first convert the pdf to another pdf?  Does
>>> Adobe appear more stable when you're using a nuance-converted pdf?
>>> Ger, it sounds like you are not having the issues that I am
>>> describing.  So if you are using Nuance to ocr and tag documents and
>>> those documents are then stable in Adobe, that would be a wonderful
>>> and welcome development!
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Laura
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 8/5/19, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Angie’s comments are well made. I would only add that if the document
>>>> contains paragraph numbers those are a good and reliable reference
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon 5 Aug 2019 at 20:52 Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Laura, one quick observation: Without addressing the need for precision
>>>>> when, say, referring to line numbers or making other references to the
>>>>> PDFs
>>>>> that are required for your job, I just want to add that converting
>>>>> files
>>>>> to
>>>>> another format may not take the amount of time one might expect,
>>>>> particularly if you use a mainstream solution. I don’t know how long it
>>>>> takes Kurzweil to convert a PDF because I don’t use that product. In
>>>>> the
>>>>> past, I’ve used Abbyy Finereader; nowadays, I use Nuance Power PDF.
>>>>> Each
>>>>> of
>>>>> these can OCR a file of several hundred pages in a matter of minutes
>>>>> and
>>>>> give good results, barring handwriting or other unusual attributes of
>>>>> the
>>>>> file. I’m in no way saying that we don’t need a better way to access
>>>>> PDF
>>>>> files directly; I’m just suggesting that converting a PDF to Word or
>>>>> another format of choice isn’t necessarily a process that takes hours
>>>>> and
>>>>> hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Having said this, it’s certainly true that if you have many, many
>>>>> files,
>>>>> there will be a good amount of time involved. This has happened to me
>>>>> before (involving due diligence for a merger and documents from the
>>>>> other
>>>>> side’s data room). But I’m not sure that the method I used ultimately
>>>>> took
>>>>> more time than I would have spent performing OCR on the PDFs, which
>>>>> would
>>>>> have had to be done in any case because they were images.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can’t comment on using any of these applications to read PDFs
>>>>> directly.
>>>>> In my mind, converting files to another format is analogous to printing
>>>>> vs
>>>>> reading the PDF on-screen, and while it’s not perfect, it generally
>>>>> works
>>>>> for my purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I hope you’re able to find a solution quickly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Angie
>>>>> 
>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb
>>>>> LLP]<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.loeb.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C35dfc2f479984ab262cf08d719ed72db%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637006379927625333&sdata=%2FPHXcR0hDOTY%2BGZt01nMItJWTi1IRXDWGEeUaMy4wOY%3D&reserved=0>
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