From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Jan 2 19:53:42 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 19:53:42 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcements - Northwest Justice Project Message-ID: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 5:42 PM To: fangseattle at googlegroups.com Subject: [fangs] Position Announcements - NJP The Northwest Justice Project is hiring! Greetings to you as we send out 2018 and welcome 2019! Northwest Justice Project has several position openings​. Attached are job announcements or follow the links below to view openings: VOCA Project Safety Coordinator Staff Attorney - Vancouver Intake Paralegal - King County Staff Attorney - Spokane - Health Justice Initiative Donor Relations Coordinator Please feel free to share this announcement widely. Regards, Karen Karen Holland Director of Human Resources Northwest Justice Project 401 Second Ave. S. Ste 407 Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 464-1519 ext. 0802 karenh at nwjustice.org www.nwjustice.org [NorthwestJustProject_transparent] Securing Justice: Transforming Lives --- You are currently subscribed to atj-community as: karenh at nwjustice.org. To access web features of this list, visit list.wsba.org/read/ Please send an email to the list administrator to update the list administrator with changes to your email address. --- You are currently subscribed to atj-community as: daquiz.abigail at dol.gov. To access web features of this list, visit list.wsba.org/read/ Please send an email to the list administrator to update the list administrator with changes to your email address. -- -- You received this message because you are a federal agency attorney and subscribed to the FANGS group. To SEND A MESSAGE to this group, email to fangseattle at googlegroups.com. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, email fangseattle+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. 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Name: Donor Relations Coordinator.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 343979 bytes Desc: Donor Relations Coordinator.pdf URL: From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 20:19:24 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:19:24 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions Message-ID: Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. Sent from my iPhone From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 20:31:38 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:31:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely and unashamedly delegate that to paralegals. On 1/3/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for > use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I > find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From ttomasi at driowa.org Thu Jan 3 20:36:15 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:36:15 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I delegate this to my legal assistant. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: kelby carlson Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 20:54:53 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:54:53 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> Message-ID: Hi, I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what his reply was: "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position here. I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with a disability.  I think this primarily because they have already proven they can succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a variety of measures.  Certainly disability is a factor where potential employers can choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case law and billable hours, or public sector work.  If the employer is honest with him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work if the candidate has other requisite skills and brain power. Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper focus.  So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell their skills, but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias against hiring the disabled person.  I'm not prepared to say how that should be done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is essential.  One needs a track record to point out where he/she has excelled in a variety of work situations where the disability was not an issue.  Support from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving a better outcome. Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers aware of the need to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness.  We know that is not always going to happen.  The public sector is, in my experience, more accommodating in this regard.  The private sector is aware and as more disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known within employment circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more widespread.  This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I would like to think so. Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort alone and do his/her best. Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top students or from top schools.  They will not have the credentials of the schools going for them.  So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, unfortunately, to be less.  I can only say that persistence, hard-work when opportunity does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential employers that the candidate is not giving up.  It always helps to make contacts and let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, skills, and how you actually do your work.  Let's face it, non-disabled rarely think about how they would do anything with a given disability.  So, when they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific disability. This is the big obstacle  for anyone-changing their thinking. It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying.  I know America may have a better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that statement.  The disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more vocal than others.  I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the most well-known for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. The battle will be more successful when the business communities including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did well, had early struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the right time with the right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful career. I'm blessed and grateful.  The publicity I had over 20 years has, I hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success.  The woman working for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my opinion. Let me end this with a simple observation.  We all can't do what we think we would like to do.  There are several reasons that some opportunities don't work out for us.  Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We just do the best we can with what we have.  Life is like a card game-you may just have to play the cards you are dealt. Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the daunting obstacle of making a living in a tough business.  The legal education  is expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. Today, there are more lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable employment even when not disabled.  It is a tough decision as to whether to enter the profession at all these day." Best, Rahul On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a vague > interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, if > you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go > for it. > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via > BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Jim McCarthy > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it > has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who have > commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in a > tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a > collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally with > them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we do > in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared to > do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a law > degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been a > plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been > required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law school > until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not > terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger > than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like law > school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment and > how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my > experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog guide. > Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period > having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next > step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that > would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of > occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if that > was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about > it, take a different direction. > Best > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially > because I fall somewhere between the two of you. > > I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn > good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. > Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you > apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore > specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government > or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're > doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has > articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and > psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already > has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a > professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, > practical reason for getting one. > Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense > to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. > > I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one > gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. > There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are > aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for > it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking > students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being > in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, > probably best to save your time and money. > > I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and > out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my > totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It > was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more > highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my > legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from > folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of > interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one > of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly > ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to > do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would > never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. > > Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about > who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my > experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is > that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people > in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. > > Laura > > On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >> Good evening: >> >> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive > positions. A law >> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >> >> Luis >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> Where to start? >> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >> and complete the process. >> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >> >> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same > position. >> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >> many of us captive. >> >> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >> this questionable goal. >> >> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >> and have other foundations laid. >> >> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a > >> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >> good company accepting the GRE. >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Maura >> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>> question is, >> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>> >>> A few points: >>> >>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>> to >> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >> less hair than I did before starting. >>> >>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>> well >> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >> my knowledge. >>> >>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>> is >> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>> >>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>> >>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>> now >> accepts the GRE. >>> >>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>> >>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>> you're >> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >> that school off and move on. >>> >>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>> will explain why at some length. >>>> >>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>> extremely high-paying >> job. >>>> >>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>> administered by the >>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>> >>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>> >>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>> on a > curve. >>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>> >>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>> outline. >>>> >>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>> definitely for you.) >>>> >>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>> >>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>> >>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>> >>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>> no, you should not go. >>>> >>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>> >>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>> lot of people will not. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Kelby Carlson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>> experiences >> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >> law but the >>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>> I >>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>> >>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my > decision. >>>>> >>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>> lawyers). >>>>> >>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>> >>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>> >>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>> viewed by >> third persons. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>> Just >>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>> level of >>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>> then >> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>> transition. All >>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>> your >> goals. >>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>> You'll >>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>> courtesy >> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>> there other >>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>> a >> "non-traditional" path. >>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >> true. >>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>> the >> moment. >>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>> take the >>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>> the >>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>> official position of The >> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>> amount of >>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>> test >> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>> is, are >>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>> start. >>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>> more >>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>> y >>>>>>> aho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>> % >>>>>> 40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>> m >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>> 4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>> g >>> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > -- -- Rahul Bajaj Candidate for the BCL Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018) University of Oxford From jtfetter at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 21:28:58 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:28:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> Message-ID: <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> I have complete confidence that top students with visible disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there yet, and  we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be somewhat less of a problem, as we  do the very things (e.g. win at trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in interviews. On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Hi, > > I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have > acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former > court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him > last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if > you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a > disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is > a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of > James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is > still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what > his reply was: > > "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of > James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law > firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position > here. > > I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with > a disability.  I think this primarily because they have already proven > they can > succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. > > I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a > variety of measures.  Certainly disability is a factor where potential > employers can > choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether > the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case > law and billable > hours, or public sector work.  If the employer is honest with > him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work > if the candidate has > other requisite skills and brain power. > > Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper > focus.  So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell > their skills, > but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias > against hiring the disabled person.  I'm not prepared to say how that > should be > done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. > > > I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is > essential.  One needs a track record to point out where he/she has > excelled in a variety > of work situations where the disability was not an issue.  Support > from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving > a better outcome. > > Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. > Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers > aware of the need > to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness.  We know > that is not always going to happen.  The public sector is, in my > experience, more > accommodating in this regard.  The private sector is aware and as more > disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known > within employment > circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more > widespread.  This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I > would like to think > so. > > Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort > alone and do his/her best. > > Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top > students or from top schools.  They will not have the credentials of > the schools > going for them.  So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, > unfortunately, to be less.  I can only say that persistence, hard-work > when opportunity > does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential > employers that the candidate is not giving up.  It always helps to > make contacts and > let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, > skills, and how you actually do your work.  Let's face it, > non-disabled rarely think > about how they would do anything with a given disability.  So, when > they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific > disability. This > is the big obstacle  for anyone-changing their thinking. > > It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying.  I know America may have a > better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that > statement.  The > disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more > vocal than others.  I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the > most well-known > for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. > > The battle will be more successful when the business communities > including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. > > I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law > ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did > well, had early > struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking > advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the > right time with the > right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful career. > > I'm blessed and grateful.  The publicity I had over 20 years has, I > hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success.  The > woman working > for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my opinion. > > Let me end this with a simple observation.  We all can't do what we > think we would like to do.  There are several reasons that some > opportunities don't > work out for us.  Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, > financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We > just do the best > we can with what we have.  Life is like a card game-you may just have > to play the cards you are dealt. > > Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may > include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the > daunting obstacle > of making a living in a tough business.  The legal education  is > expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. > Today, there are more > lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable > employment even when not disabled.  It is a tough decision as to > whether to enter the > profession at all these day." > > Best, > Rahul > > > > On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a vague >> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, if >> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >> for it. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: Jim McCarthy >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who have >> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in a >> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally with >> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we do >> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared to >> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a law >> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been a >> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law school >> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like law >> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment and >> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog guide. >> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if that >> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >> it, take a different direction. >> Best >> Jim McCarthy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially >> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >> >> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you >> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government >> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're >> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already >> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a >> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >> practical reason for getting one. >> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense >> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >> >> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are >> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for >> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being >> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >> probably best to save your time and money. >> >> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more >> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one >> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly >> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to >> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would >> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >> >> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about >> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people >> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >> >> Laura >> >> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Good evening: >>> >>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >> positions. A law >>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>> >>> Luis >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Where to start? >>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>> and complete the process. >>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>> >>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >> position. >>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>> many of us captive. >>> >>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>> this questionable goal. >>> >>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>> and have other foundations laid. >>> >>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>> good company accepting the GRE. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> >>> Maura >>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>> question is, >>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>> A few points: >>>> >>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>> to >>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>> well >>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>> my knowledge. >>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>> is >>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>> now >>> accepts the GRE. >>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>> you're >>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>> that school off and move on. >>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>> >>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>> extremely high-paying >>> job. >>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>> administered by the >>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>> >>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>> >>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>> on a >> curve. >>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>> outline. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>> >>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>> >>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>> >>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>> >>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>> >>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>> experiences >>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>> law but the >>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>> I >>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >> decision. >>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>> >>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>> >>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>> >>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>> viewed by >>> third persons. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>> Just >>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>> level of >>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>> then >>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>> your >>> goals. >>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>> You'll >>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>> courtesy >>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>> there other >>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>> a >>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>> true. >>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>> the >>> moment. >>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>> official position of The >>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>> test >>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>> m >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>> 4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>> g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> il.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 21:32:33 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:32:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anybody has suggestions for accessible resources on legal formatting or formatting in Word in general, I would very much appreciate it. I know each location is different, but in general I am trying to continually improve in that area. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > > I delegate this to my legal assistant. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: kelby carlson > Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions > > Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 21:36:23 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:36:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22c119b0-285a-4ac9-eb3c-936153bf07c4@yahoo.com> Legal assistants routinely handle this sort of thing for sighted attorneys as well, so it should not be seen as an accommodation as such. Generally, they handle other kinds of formatting. In my admittedly limited experience, firms don't want attorneys billing clients for time spent fiddling with formatting. I'm not sure how this works in the public sector. On 1/3/2019 3:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > I delegate this to my legal assistant. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: kelby carlson > Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions > > Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:40:15 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:40:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's no uniform answer to that. Wherever you work is going to have different conventions for how they want documents to look, as is every federal and state court. My general advice is to strip away as many auto-formatting features in word as you can so that you have complete control over the document yourself. I also strongly advise changing the features so that when material is copied into the document, formatting is merged. This drastically, like seriously drastically cuts down on the number and type of "blindness-related" errors that I used to have associated with copying and pasting from Westlaw or other PDF documents or documents from Kurzweil, etc. I've also found that turning on the jaws feature that notifies me when spacing has changed is helpful, because it has caught a number of instances where word randomly went from double to single or vise versa without my telling it too. If you have an assistant who can make templates for you so that you can just plug in the text in the appropriate place, that could work too. Although I still find that that method leads to more errors than when I do all of the structural formatting at the end. Every person is going to be different though, the key is figuring out what works for you. On 1/3/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > If anybody has suggestions for accessible resources on legal formatting or > formatting in Word in general, I would very much appreciate it. I know each > location is different, but in general I am trying to continually improve in > that area. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> I delegate this to my legal assistant. >> >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >> Pronouns: she/her/hers >> Staff Attorney >> >> >> >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >> www.driowa.org >> >> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans >> with disabilities >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >> >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of >> Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named >> recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client >> communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an >> intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you >> are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments >> or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received >> this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, >> any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and >> destroy any printouts. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: kelby carlson >> Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions >> >> Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for >> use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I >> find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:38:18 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:38:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: <22c119b0-285a-4ac9-eb3c-936153bf07c4@yahoo.com> References: <22c119b0-285a-4ac9-eb3c-936153bf07c4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, not that it matters, but I don't think that's true. I've spoken to a large number of sighted friends and colleagues at comparable firms and the government, and they don't delegate this sort of thing to assistants. Bigger projects, yes. But putting a caption on a brief? It takes more time to send it off and wait for it to come back than to do it yourself. Like I said, I delegate without shame, but I do think it's good to know when we're asking for things out of the norm. On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > Legal assistants routinely handle this sort of thing for sighted > attorneys as well, so it should not be seen as an accommodation as such. > Generally, they handle other kinds of formatting. In my admittedly > limited experience, firms don't want attorneys billing clients for time > spent fiddling with formatting. I'm not sure how this works in the > public sector. > > On 1/3/2019 3:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >> I delegate this to my legal assistant. >> >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >> Pronouns: she/her/hers >> Staff Attorney >> >> >> >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >> www.driowa.org >> >> Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans >> with disabilities >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >> >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of >> Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named >> recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client >> communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an >> intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you >> are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments >> or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received >> this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, >> any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and >> destroy any printouts. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: kelby carlson >> Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions >> >> Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for >> use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I >> find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From mnowicki4 at icloud.com Thu Jan 3 23:02:03 2019 From: mnowicki4 at icloud.com (Michal Nowicki) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:02:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Everyone, A while ago, someone on this list (I believe it was Scott Labarre) suggested that the NABL organize a conference call on marketing ourselves as blind professionals. In light of the recent discussions on this list, I think it would be very helpful to hold such a call soon. One of the biggest challenges I face in my job hunt is striking the right balance between convincing employers that I can do the job without misleading them into believing that they can grant every reasonable accommodation with the simple wave of a magic wand, at no inconvenience to the employer. Best, Michal Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: James T. Fetter via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 3:30 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: James T. Fetter Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance I have complete confidence that top students with visible disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there yet, and  we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be somewhat less of a problem, as we  do the very things (e.g. win at trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in interviews. On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Hi, > > I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have > acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former > court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him > last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if > you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a > disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is > a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of > James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is > still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what > his reply was: > > "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of > James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law > firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position > here. > > I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with > a disability.  I think this primarily because they have already proven > they can > succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. > > I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a > variety of measures.  Certainly disability is a factor where potential > employers can > choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether > the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case > law and billable > hours, or public sector work.  If the employer is honest with > him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work > if the candidate has > other requisite skills and brain power. > > Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper > focus.  So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell > their skills, > but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias > against hiring the disabled person.  I'm not prepared to say how that > should be > done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. > > > I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is > essential.  One needs a track record to point out where he/she has > excelled in a variety > of work situations where the disability was not an issue.  Support > from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving > a better outcome. > > Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. > Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers > aware of the need > to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness.  We know > that is not always going to happen.  The public sector is, in my > experience, more > accommodating in this regard.  The private sector is aware and as more > disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known > within employment > circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more > widespread.  This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I > would like to think > so. > > Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort > alone and do his/her best. > > Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top > students or from top schools.  They will not have the credentials of > the schools > going for them.  So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, > unfortunately, to be less.  I can only say that persistence, hard-work > when opportunity > does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential > employers that the candidate is not giving up.  It always helps to > make contacts and > let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, > skills, and how you actually do your work.  Let's face it, > non-disabled rarely think > about how they would do anything with a given disability.  So, when > they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific > disability. This > is the big obstacle  for anyone-changing their thinking. > > It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying.  I know America may have a > better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that > statement.  The > disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more > vocal than others.  I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the > most well-known > for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. > > The battle will be more successful when the business communities > including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. > > I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law > ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did > well, had early > struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking > advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the > right time with the > right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful career. > > I'm blessed and grateful.  The publicity I had over 20 years has, I > hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success.  The > woman working > for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my opinion. > > Let me end this with a simple observation.  We all can't do what we > think we would like to do.  There are several reasons that some > opportunities don't > work out for us.  Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, > financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We > just do the best > we can with what we have.  Life is like a card game-you may just have > to play the cards you are dealt. > > Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may > include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the > daunting obstacle > of making a living in a tough business.  The legal education  is > expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. > Today, there are more > lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable > employment even when not disabled.  It is a tough decision as to > whether to enter the > profession at all these day." > > Best, > Rahul > > > > On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a vague >> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, if >> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >> for it. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: Jim McCarthy >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who have >> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in a >> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally with >> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we do >> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared to >> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a law >> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been a >> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law school >> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like law >> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment and >> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog guide. >> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if that >> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >> it, take a different direction. >> Best >> Jim McCarthy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >> >> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, especially >> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >> >> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if you >> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in government >> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." you're >> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one already >> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is a >> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >> practical reason for getting one. >> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no offense >> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >> >> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you are >> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go for >> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to being >> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >> probably best to save your time and money. >> >> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from more >> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was one >> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most highly >> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted to >> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I would >> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >> >> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is about >> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of people >> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >> >> Laura >> >> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Good evening: >>> >>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >> positions. A law >>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>> >>> Luis >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Where to start? >>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>> and complete the process. >>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>> >>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >> position. >>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>> many of us captive. >>> >>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>> this questionable goal. >>> >>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>> and have other foundations laid. >>> >>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>> good company accepting the GRE. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> >>> Maura >>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>> question is, >>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>> A few points: >>>> >>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>> to >>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>> well >>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>> my knowledge. >>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>> is >>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>> now >>> accepts the GRE. >>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>> you're >>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>> that school off and move on. >>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>> >>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>> extremely high-paying >>> job. >>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>> administered by the >>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>> >>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>> >>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>> on a >> curve. >>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>> outline. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>> >>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>> >>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>> >>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>> >>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. >>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>> >>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>> experiences >>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>> law but the >>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>> I >>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >> decision. >>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>> >>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>> >>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>> >>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>> viewed by >>> third persons. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>> Just >>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you. >>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>> level of >>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>> then >>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>> your >>> goals. >>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>> You'll >>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>> courtesy >>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>> there other >>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>> a >>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>> true. >>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>> the >>> moment. >>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>> official position of The >>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list. >>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>> test >>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>> m >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>> 4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>> g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> il.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mnowicki4%40icloud.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:48:20 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:48:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, Rahul. I partially agree with him, but I think he overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I don't think that's really how it works. At least, that's certainly not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL. I think that, even when presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously, that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it). I know this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to succeed and do bluebooking on the law review." This really caught people off guard. Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from them). But it worked. They almost never asked follow-up questions, probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar type things that without question would have impacted their decision had they not gotten out in the open. Just my thoughts. On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > I have complete confidence that top students with visible > disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less > confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The > key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, > whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It > would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials > resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there > yet, and  we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be > somewhat less of a problem, as we  do the very things (e.g. win at > trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability > to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in > interviews. > > > On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have >> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former >> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him >> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if >> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a >> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is >> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of >> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is >> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what >> his reply was: >> >> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of >> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law >> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position >> here. >> >> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with >> a disability.  I think this primarily because they have already proven >> they can >> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. >> >> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a >> variety of measures.  Certainly disability is a factor where potential >> employers can >> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether >> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case >> law and billable >> hours, or public sector work.  If the employer is honest with >> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work >> if the candidate has >> other requisite skills and brain power. >> >> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper >> focus.  So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell >> their skills, >> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias >> against hiring the disabled person.  I'm not prepared to say how that >> should be >> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. >> >> >> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is >> essential.  One needs a track record to point out where he/she has >> excelled in a variety >> of work situations where the disability was not an issue.  Support >> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving >> a better outcome. >> >> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. >> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers >> aware of the need >> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness.  We know >> that is not always going to happen.  The public sector is, in my >> experience, more >> accommodating in this regard.  The private sector is aware and as more >> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known >> within employment >> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more >> widespread.  This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I >> would like to think >> so. >> >> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort >> alone and do his/her best. >> >> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top >> students or from top schools.  They will not have the credentials of >> the schools >> going for them.  So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, >> unfortunately, to be less.  I can only say that persistence, hard-work >> when opportunity >> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential >> employers that the candidate is not giving up.  It always helps to >> make contacts and >> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, >> skills, and how you actually do your work.  Let's face it, >> non-disabled rarely think >> about how they would do anything with a given disability.  So, when >> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific >> disability. This >> is the big obstacle  for anyone-changing their thinking. >> >> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying.  I know America may have a >> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that >> statement.  The >> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more >> vocal than others.  I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the >> most well-known >> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. >> >> The battle will be more successful when the business communities >> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. >> >> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law >> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did >> well, had early >> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking >> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the >> right time with the >> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful >> career. >> >> I'm blessed and grateful.  The publicity I had over 20 years has, I >> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success.  The >> woman working >> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my >> opinion. >> >> Let me end this with a simple observation.  We all can't do what we >> think we would like to do.  There are several reasons that some >> opportunities don't >> work out for us.  Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, >> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We >> just do the best >> we can with what we have.  Life is like a card game-you may just have >> to play the cards you are dealt. >> >> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may >> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the >> daunting obstacle >> of making a living in a tough business.  The legal education  is >> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. >> Today, there are more >> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable >> employment even when not disabled.  It is a tough decision as to >> whether to enter the >> profession at all these day." >> >> Best, >> Rahul >> >> >> >> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a >>> vague >>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, >>> if >>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >>> for it. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy >>> via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who >>> have >>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in >>> a >>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally >>> with >>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we >>> do >>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared >>> to >>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a >>> law >>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been >>> a >>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law >>> school >>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like >>> law >>> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment >>> and >>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog >>> guide. >>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if >>> that >>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >>> it, take a different direction. >>> Best >>> Jim McCarthy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>> Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>> >>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, >>> especially >>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >>> >>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if >>> you >>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in >>> government >>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." >>> you're >>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one >>> already >>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is >>> a >>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >>> practical reason for getting one. >>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no >>> offense >>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >>> >>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >>> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you >>> are >>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go >>> for >>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to >>> being >>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >>> probably best to save your time and money. >>> >>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from >>> more >>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was >>> one >>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most >>> highly >>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted >>> to >>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I >>> would >>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >>> >>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is >>> about >>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of >>> people >>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Good evening: >>>> >>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >>> positions. A law >>>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>>> >>>> Luis >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Where to start? >>>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>>> and complete the process. >>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>>> >>>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >>> position. >>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>>> many of us captive. >>>> >>>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>>> this questionable goal. >>>> >>>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>>> and have other foundations laid. >>>> >>>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>>> good company accepting the GRE. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> >>>> Maura >>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>>> question is, >>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>>> A few points: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>>> to >>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>>> well >>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>>> my knowledge. >>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>>> is >>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>>> now >>>> accepts the GRE. >>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>>> you're >>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>>> that school off and move on. >>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>>> extremely high-paying >>>> job. >>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>>> administered by the >>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>>> on a >>> curve. >>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>>> >>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>>> outline. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>>> >>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>>>> television. >>>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>>> >>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>>> experiences >>>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>>> law but the >>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>> decision. >>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>>> viewed by >>>> third persons. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits >>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>>> then >>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>>> your >>>> goals. >>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>>> You'll >>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>>> courtesy >>>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>>> there other >>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>>> a >>>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>>> true. >>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>>> the >>>> moment. >>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>>> official position of The >>>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>>> test >>>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>>> m >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>>> g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 00:19:48 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 19:19:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: <22c119b0-285a-4ac9-eb3c-936153bf07c4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06B78940-5A45-47CD-8255-9C44DAAB1736@gmail.com> Part of the issue is that in my office captions are put at the top of each page of a motion rather than just at the beginning. (Incidentally this also makes scrolling through our documents more challenging than it would normally be.) Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > Actually, not that it matters, but I don't think that's true. I've > spoken to a large number of sighted friends and colleagues at > comparable firms and the government, and they don't delegate this sort > of thing to assistants. Bigger projects, yes. But putting a caption > on a brief? It takes more time to send it off and wait for it to come > back than to do it yourself. Like I said, I delegate without shame, > but I do think it's good to know when we're asking for things out of > the norm. > >> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> Legal assistants routinely handle this sort of thing for sighted >> attorneys as well, so it should not be seen as an accommodation as such. >> Generally, they handle other kinds of formatting. In my admittedly >> limited experience, firms don't want attorneys billing clients for time >> spent fiddling with formatting. I'm not sure how this works in the >> public sector. >> >>> On 1/3/2019 3:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I delegate this to my legal assistant. >>> >>> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >>> Pronouns: she/her/hers >>> Staff Attorney >>> >>> >>> >>> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >>> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >>> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >>> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >>> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >>> www.driowa.org >>> >>> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans >>> with disabilities >>> >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >>> >>> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of >>> Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named >>> recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client >>> communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an >>> intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you >>> are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments >>> or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received >>> this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, >>> any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and >>> destroy any printouts. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of kelby carlson >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:19 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: kelby carlson >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions >>> >>> Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for >>> use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I >>> find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:08:12 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 21:08:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1398A91E-FB11-402C-8449-DE6B48E8FEBD@gmail.com> Laura, you articulated my thoughts. I have asked similar questions during job interviews and have gotten similar responses. Both of the firms where I have worked answered those questions with something like, "we assume based on your record and resume that you can do the job." Not every firm responded this way. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > Thanks for sharing, Rahul. I partially agree with him, but I think he > overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a > thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I > don't think that's really how it works. At least, that's certainly > not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL. I think that, even when > presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the > tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously, > that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was > lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient > with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it). I know > this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to > do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any > questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering > if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to > succeed and do bluebooking on the law review." This really caught > people off guard. Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about > that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from > them). But it worked. They almost never asked follow-up questions, > probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but > I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't > realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar > type things that without question would have impacted their decision > had they not gotten out in the open. > > Just my thoughts. > > > >> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> I have complete confidence that top students with visible >> disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less >> confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The >> key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, >> whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It >> would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials >> resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there >> yet, and we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be >> somewhat less of a problem, as we do the very things (e.g. win at >> trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability >> to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in >> interviews. >> >> >>> On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have >>> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former >>> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him >>> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if >>> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a >>> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is >>> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of >>> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is >>> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what >>> his reply was: >>> >>> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of >>> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law >>> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position >>> here. >>> >>> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with >>> a disability. I think this primarily because they have already proven >>> they can >>> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. >>> >>> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a >>> variety of measures. Certainly disability is a factor where potential >>> employers can >>> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether >>> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case >>> law and billable >>> hours, or public sector work. If the employer is honest with >>> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work >>> if the candidate has >>> other requisite skills and brain power. >>> >>> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper >>> focus. So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell >>> their skills, >>> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias >>> against hiring the disabled person. I'm not prepared to say how that >>> should be >>> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. >>> >>> >>> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is >>> essential. One needs a track record to point out where he/she has >>> excelled in a variety >>> of work situations where the disability was not an issue. Support >>> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving >>> a better outcome. >>> >>> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. >>> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers >>> aware of the need >>> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness. We know >>> that is not always going to happen. The public sector is, in my >>> experience, more >>> accommodating in this regard. The private sector is aware and as more >>> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known >>> within employment >>> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more >>> widespread. This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I >>> would like to think >>> so. >>> >>> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort >>> alone and do his/her best. >>> >>> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top >>> students or from top schools. They will not have the credentials of >>> the schools >>> going for them. So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, >>> unfortunately, to be less. I can only say that persistence, hard-work >>> when opportunity >>> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential >>> employers that the candidate is not giving up. It always helps to >>> make contacts and >>> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, >>> skills, and how you actually do your work. Let's face it, >>> non-disabled rarely think >>> about how they would do anything with a given disability. So, when >>> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific >>> disability. This >>> is the big obstacle for anyone-changing their thinking. >>> >>> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying. I know America may have a >>> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that >>> statement. The >>> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more >>> vocal than others. I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the >>> most well-known >>> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. >>> >>> The battle will be more successful when the business communities >>> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. >>> >>> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law >>> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did >>> well, had early >>> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking >>> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the >>> right time with the >>> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful >>> career. >>> >>> I'm blessed and grateful. The publicity I had over 20 years has, I >>> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success. The >>> woman working >>> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my >>> opinion. >>> >>> Let me end this with a simple observation. We all can't do what we >>> think we would like to do. There are several reasons that some >>> opportunities don't >>> work out for us. Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, >>> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We >>> just do the best >>> we can with what we have. Life is like a card game-you may just have >>> to play the cards you are dealt. >>> >>> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may >>> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the >>> daunting obstacle >>> of making a living in a tough business. The legal education is >>> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. >>> Today, there are more >>> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable >>> employment even when not disabled. It is a tough decision as to >>> whether to enter the >>> profession at all these day." >>> >>> Best, >>> Rahul >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a >>>> vague >>>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, >>>> if >>>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >>>> for it. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy >>>> via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >>>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who >>>> have >>>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in >>>> a >>>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >>>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally >>>> with >>>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we >>>> do >>>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared >>>> to >>>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a >>>> law >>>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been >>>> a >>>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >>>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law >>>> school >>>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >>>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >>>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like >>>> law >>>> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment >>>> and >>>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >>>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog >>>> guide. >>>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >>>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >>>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >>>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >>>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if >>>> that >>>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >>>> it, take a different direction. >>>> Best >>>> Jim McCarthy >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>> Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>> >>>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, >>>> especially >>>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >>>> >>>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >>>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >>>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if >>>> you >>>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >>>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in >>>> government >>>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." >>>> you're >>>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >>>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >>>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one >>>> already >>>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is >>>> a >>>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >>>> practical reason for getting one. >>>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no >>>> offense >>>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >>>> >>>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >>>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >>>> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you >>>> are >>>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go >>>> for >>>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >>>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to >>>> being >>>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >>>> probably best to save your time and money. >>>> >>>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >>>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >>>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >>>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from >>>> more >>>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >>>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >>>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >>>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was >>>> one >>>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most >>>> highly >>>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted >>>> to >>>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I >>>> would >>>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >>>> >>>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is >>>> about >>>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >>>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >>>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of >>>> people >>>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Good evening: >>>>> >>>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >>>> positions. A law >>>>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>>>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>>>> >>>>> Luis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Where to start? >>>>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>>>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>>>> and complete the process. >>>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>>>> >>>>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>>>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >>>> position. >>>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>>>> many of us captive. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>>>> this questionable goal. >>>>> >>>>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>>>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>>>> and have other foundations laid. >>>>> >>>>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>>>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>>>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>>>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>>>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>>>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>>>> good company accepting the GRE. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> >>>>> Maura >>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>>>> question is, >>>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>>>> A few points: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>>>> to >>>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>>>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>>>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>>>> well >>>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>>>> my knowledge. >>>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>>>> is >>>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>>>> now >>>>> accepts the GRE. >>>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>>>> you're >>>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>>>> that school off and move on. >>>>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>>>> extremely high-paying >>>>> job. >>>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>>>> administered by the >>>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>>>> on a >>>> curve. >>>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>>>> outline. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>>>>> television. >>>>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>>>> experiences >>>>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>>>> law but the >>>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>>> decision. >>>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>>>> viewed by >>>>> third persons. >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits >>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>>>> then >>>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>>>> your >>>>> goals. >>>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>>>> You'll >>>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>>>> courtesy >>>>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>>>> there other >>>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>>>> a >>>>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>>>> true. >>>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>>>> the >>>>> moment. >>>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>>>> official position of The >>>>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>>>> test >>>>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>>>> g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:39:32 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 21:39:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <1398A91E-FB11-402C-8449-DE6B48E8FEBD@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> <1398A91E-FB11-402C-8449-DE6B48E8FEBD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F209B22-D4DE-467F-B2AC-DA5695CEDEFF@gmail.com> Laura, I definitely try and do this. I tend to think it is better to address these issues head-on than to avoid them and hope the employer relies primarily on my record. I mostly applied for public sector jobs, s,I ca't really predict how firms might have responded to that approach. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > Laura, you articulated my thoughts. I have asked similar questions during job interviews and have gotten similar responses. Both of the firms where I have worked answered those questions with something like, "we assume based on your record and resume that you can do the job." Not every firm responded this way. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thanks for sharing, Rahul. I partially agree with him, but I think he >> overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a >> thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I >> don't think that's really how it works. At least, that's certainly >> not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL. I think that, even when >> presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the >> tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously, >> that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was >> lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient >> with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it). I know >> this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to >> do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any >> questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering >> if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to >> succeed and do bluebooking on the law review." This really caught >> people off guard. Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about >> that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from >> them). But it worked. They almost never asked follow-up questions, >> probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but >> I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't >> realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar >> type things that without question would have impacted their decision >> had they not gotten out in the open. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> >> >>> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I have complete confidence that top students with visible >>> disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less >>> confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The >>> key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, >>> whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It >>> would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials >>> resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there >>> yet, and we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be >>> somewhat less of a problem, as we do the very things (e.g. win at >>> trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability >>> to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in >>> interviews. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have >>>> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former >>>> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him >>>> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if >>>> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a >>>> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is >>>> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of >>>> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is >>>> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what >>>> his reply was: >>>> >>>> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of >>>> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law >>>> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position >>>> here. >>>> >>>> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with >>>> a disability. I think this primarily because they have already proven >>>> they can >>>> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. >>>> >>>> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a >>>> variety of measures. Certainly disability is a factor where potential >>>> employers can >>>> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether >>>> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case >>>> law and billable >>>> hours, or public sector work. If the employer is honest with >>>> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work >>>> if the candidate has >>>> other requisite skills and brain power. >>>> >>>> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper >>>> focus. So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell >>>> their skills, >>>> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias >>>> against hiring the disabled person. I'm not prepared to say how that >>>> should be >>>> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is >>>> essential. One needs a track record to point out where he/she has >>>> excelled in a variety >>>> of work situations where the disability was not an issue. Support >>>> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving >>>> a better outcome. >>>> >>>> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. >>>> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers >>>> aware of the need >>>> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness. We know >>>> that is not always going to happen. The public sector is, in my >>>> experience, more >>>> accommodating in this regard. The private sector is aware and as more >>>> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known >>>> within employment >>>> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more >>>> widespread. This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I >>>> would like to think >>>> so. >>>> >>>> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort >>>> alone and do his/her best. >>>> >>>> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top >>>> students or from top schools. They will not have the credentials of >>>> the schools >>>> going for them. So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, >>>> unfortunately, to be less. I can only say that persistence, hard-work >>>> when opportunity >>>> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential >>>> employers that the candidate is not giving up. It always helps to >>>> make contacts and >>>> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, >>>> skills, and how you actually do your work. Let's face it, >>>> non-disabled rarely think >>>> about how they would do anything with a given disability. So, when >>>> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific >>>> disability. This >>>> is the big obstacle for anyone-changing their thinking. >>>> >>>> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying. I know America may have a >>>> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that >>>> statement. The >>>> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more >>>> vocal than others. I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the >>>> most well-known >>>> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. >>>> >>>> The battle will be more successful when the business communities >>>> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. >>>> >>>> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law >>>> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did >>>> well, had early >>>> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking >>>> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the >>>> right time with the >>>> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful >>>> career. >>>> >>>> I'm blessed and grateful. The publicity I had over 20 years has, I >>>> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success. The >>>> woman working >>>> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> Let me end this with a simple observation. We all can't do what we >>>> think we would like to do. There are several reasons that some >>>> opportunities don't >>>> work out for us. Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, >>>> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We >>>> just do the best >>>> we can with what we have. Life is like a card game-you may just have >>>> to play the cards you are dealt. >>>> >>>> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may >>>> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the >>>> daunting obstacle >>>> of making a living in a tough business. The legal education is >>>> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. >>>> Today, there are more >>>> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable >>>> employment even when not disabled. It is a tough decision as to >>>> whether to enter the >>>> profession at all these day." >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a >>>>> vague >>>>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, >>>>> if >>>>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >>>>> for it. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >>>>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who >>>>> have >>>>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in >>>>> a >>>>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >>>>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally >>>>> with >>>>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we >>>>> do >>>>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared >>>>> to >>>>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a >>>>> law >>>>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been >>>>> a >>>>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >>>>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law >>>>> school >>>>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >>>>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >>>>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like >>>>> law >>>>> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment >>>>> and >>>>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >>>>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog >>>>> guide. >>>>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >>>>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >>>>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >>>>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >>>>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if >>>>> that >>>>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >>>>> it, take a different direction. >>>>> Best >>>>> Jim McCarthy >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>>> Wolk >>>>> via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, >>>>> especially >>>>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >>>>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >>>>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if >>>>> you >>>>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >>>>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in >>>>> government >>>>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." >>>>> you're >>>>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >>>>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >>>>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one >>>>> already >>>>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is >>>>> a >>>>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >>>>> practical reason for getting one. >>>>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no >>>>> offense >>>>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >>>>> >>>>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >>>>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >>>>> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you >>>>> are >>>>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go >>>>> for >>>>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >>>>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to >>>>> being >>>>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >>>>> probably best to save your time and money. >>>>> >>>>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >>>>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >>>>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >>>>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from >>>>> more >>>>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >>>>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >>>>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >>>>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was >>>>> one >>>>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most >>>>> highly >>>>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted >>>>> to >>>>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I >>>>> would >>>>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is >>>>> about >>>>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >>>>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >>>>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of >>>>> people >>>>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Good evening: >>>>>> >>>>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>>>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>>>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>>>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >>>>> positions. A law >>>>>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>>>>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>>>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>>>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>>>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>>>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>>>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>>>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Luis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Where to start? >>>>>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>>>>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>>>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>>>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>>>>> and complete the process. >>>>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>>>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>>>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>>>>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >>>>> position. >>>>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>>>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>>>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>>>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>>>>> many of us captive. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>>>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>>>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>>>>> this questionable goal. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>>>>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>>>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>>>>> and have other foundations laid. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>>>>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>>>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>>>>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>>>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>>>>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>>>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>>>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>>>>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>>>>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>>>>> good company accepting the GRE. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warm regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura >>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>>>>> question is, >>>>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>>>>> A few points: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>>>>> to >>>>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>>>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>>>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>>>>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>>>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>>>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>>>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>>>>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>>>>> well >>>>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>>>>> my knowledge. >>>>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>>>>> is >>>>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>>>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>>>>> now >>>>>> accepts the GRE. >>>>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>>>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>>>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>>>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>>>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>>>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>>>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>>>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>>>>> you're >>>>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>>>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>>>>> that school off and move on. >>>>>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>>>>> extremely high-paying >>>>>> job. >>>>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>>>>> administered by the >>>>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>>>>> on a >>>>> curve. >>>>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>>>>> outline. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>>>>>> television. >>>>>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>>>>> experiences >>>>>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>>>>> law but the >>>>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>>>> decision. >>>>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>>>>> viewed by >>>>>> third persons. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits >>>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>> goals. >>>>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>>>>> You'll >>>>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>>>>> courtesy >>>>>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>>>>> there other >>>>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>>>>> true. >>>>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> moment. >>>>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>>>>> official position of The >>>>>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>>>>> test >>>>>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>>>>> g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Fri Jan 4 04:12:18 2019 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 04:12:18 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: <3F209B22-D4DE-467F-B2AC-DA5695CEDEFF@gmail.com> References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> <1398A91E-FB11-402C-8449-DE6B48E8FEBD@gmail.com> <3F209B22-D4DE-467F-B2AC-DA5695CEDEFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: I take this one step further and ask for extra time to explain my technology. I do this as I had a grad interview and they asked how I would work. most of the interview was taken up with me explaining my technology and then I did not get the job. I think it is really important to separate the disability accommodation discussion from the standard interview. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, 4 January 2019 12:40 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: kelby carlson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance Laura, I definitely try and do this. I tend to think it is better to address these issues head-on than to avoid them and hope the employer relies primarily on my record. I mostly applied for public sector jobs, s,I ca't really predict how firms might have responded to that approach. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > Laura, you articulated my thoughts. I have asked similar questions during job interviews and have gotten similar responses. Both of the firms where I have worked answered those questions with something like, "we assume based on your record and resume that you can do the job." Not every firm responded this way. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Thanks for sharing, Rahul. I partially agree with him, but I think he >> overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a >> thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I >> don't think that's really how it works. At least, that's certainly >> not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL. I think that, even when >> presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the >> tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously, >> that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was >> lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient >> with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it). I know >> this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to >> do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any >> questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering >> if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to >> succeed and do bluebooking on the law review." This really caught >> people off guard. Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about >> that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from >> them). But it worked. They almost never asked follow-up questions, >> probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but >> I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't >> realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar >> type things that without question would have impacted their decision >> had they not gotten out in the open. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> >> >>> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I have complete confidence that top students with visible >>> disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less >>> confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The >>> key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance, >>> whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It >>> would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials >>> resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there >>> yet, and we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be >>> somewhat less of a problem, as we do the very things (e.g. win at >>> trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability >>> to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in >>> interviews. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have >>>> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former >>>> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him >>>> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if >>>> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a >>>> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is >>>> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of >>>> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is >>>> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what >>>> his reply was: >>>> >>>> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of >>>> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law >>>> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position >>>> here. >>>> >>>> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with >>>> a disability. I think this primarily because they have already proven >>>> they can >>>> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. >>>> >>>> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a >>>> variety of measures. Certainly disability is a factor where potential >>>> employers can >>>> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether >>>> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case >>>> law and billable >>>> hours, or public sector work. If the employer is honest with >>>> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work >>>> if the candidate has >>>> other requisite skills and brain power. >>>> >>>> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper >>>> focus. So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell >>>> their skills, >>>> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias >>>> against hiring the disabled person. I'm not prepared to say how that >>>> should be >>>> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is >>>> essential. One needs a track record to point out where he/she has >>>> excelled in a variety >>>> of work situations where the disability was not an issue. Support >>>> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving >>>> a better outcome. >>>> >>>> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. >>>> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers >>>> aware of the need >>>> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness. We know >>>> that is not always going to happen. The public sector is, in my >>>> experience, more >>>> accommodating in this regard. The private sector is aware and as more >>>> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known >>>> within employment >>>> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more >>>> widespread. This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I >>>> would like to think >>>> so. >>>> >>>> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort >>>> alone and do his/her best. >>>> >>>> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top >>>> students or from top schools. They will not have the credentials of >>>> the schools >>>> going for them. So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, >>>> unfortunately, to be less. I can only say that persistence, hard-work >>>> when opportunity >>>> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential >>>> employers that the candidate is not giving up. It always helps to >>>> make contacts and >>>> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, >>>> skills, and how you actually do your work. Let's face it, >>>> non-disabled rarely think >>>> about how they would do anything with a given disability. So, when >>>> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific >>>> disability. This >>>> is the big obstacle for anyone-changing their thinking. >>>> >>>> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying. I know America may have a >>>> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that >>>> statement. The >>>> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more >>>> vocal than others. I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the >>>> most well-known >>>> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. >>>> >>>> The battle will be more successful when the business communities >>>> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. >>>> >>>> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law >>>> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did >>>> well, had early >>>> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking >>>> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the >>>> right time with the >>>> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful >>>> career. >>>> >>>> I'm blessed and grateful. The publicity I had over 20 years has, I >>>> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success. The >>>> woman working >>>> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> Let me end this with a simple observation. We all can't do what we >>>> think we would like to do. There are several reasons that some >>>> opportunities don't >>>> work out for us. Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, >>>> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We >>>> just do the best >>>> we can with what we have. Life is like a card game-you may just have >>>> to play the cards you are dealt. >>>> >>>> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may >>>> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the >>>> daunting obstacle >>>> of making a living in a tough business. The legal education is >>>> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. >>>> Today, there are more >>>> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable >>>> employment even when not disabled. It is a tough decision as to >>>> whether to enter the >>>> profession at all these day." >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a >>>>> vague >>>>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However, >>>>> if >>>>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go >>>>> for it. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it >>>>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who >>>>> have >>>>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in >>>>> a >>>>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a >>>>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally >>>>> with >>>>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we >>>>> do >>>>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared >>>>> to >>>>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a >>>>> law >>>>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been >>>>> a >>>>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been >>>>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law >>>>> school >>>>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not >>>>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger >>>>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like >>>>> law >>>>> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment >>>>> and >>>>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my >>>>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog >>>>> guide. >>>>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period >>>>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next >>>>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that >>>>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >>>>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if >>>>> that >>>>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about >>>>> it, take a different direction. >>>>> Best >>>>> Jim McCarthy >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>>> Wolk >>>>> via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>> >>>>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, >>>>> especially >>>>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty darn >>>>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >>>>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if >>>>> you >>>>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore >>>>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in >>>>> government >>>>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." >>>>> you're >>>>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >>>>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >>>>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one >>>>> already >>>>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is >>>>> a >>>>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional, >>>>> practical reason for getting one. >>>>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no >>>>> offense >>>>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >>>>> >>>>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one >>>>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25. >>>>> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school you >>>>> are >>>>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go >>>>> for >>>>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >>>>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to >>>>> being >>>>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise, >>>>> probably best to save your time and money. >>>>> >>>>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and >>>>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my >>>>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It >>>>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from >>>>> more >>>>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my >>>>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from >>>>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >>>>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was >>>>> one >>>>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most >>>>> highly >>>>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted >>>>> to >>>>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I >>>>> would >>>>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is >>>>> about >>>>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my >>>>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is >>>>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of >>>>> people >>>>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Good evening: >>>>>> >>>>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at >>>>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>>>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>>>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >>>>> positions. A law >>>>>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities. >>>>>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>>>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>>>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>>>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>>>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>>>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of >>>>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Luis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Where to start? >>>>>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>>>>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>>>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>>>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake >>>>>> and complete the process. >>>>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My >>>>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center >>>>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>>>>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >>>>> position. >>>>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in >>>>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>>>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of >>>>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>>>>> many of us captive. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>>>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>>>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>>>>> this questionable goal. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>>>>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>>>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home >>>>>> and have other foundations laid. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a >>>>>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope >>>>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>>>>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree >>>>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I >>>>>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a >>>>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>>>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least >>>>>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls >>>>>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>>>>> good company accepting the GRE. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warm regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura >>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>>>>> question is, >>>>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>>>>> A few points: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>>>>> to >>>>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>>>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>>>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>>>>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>>>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>>>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>>>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit >>>>>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>>>>> well >>>>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to >>>>>> my knowledge. >>>>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as >>>>>>> is >>>>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton >>>>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>>>>> now >>>>>> accepts the GRE. >>>>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20. >>>>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>>>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>>>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% >>>>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>>>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>>>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and >>>>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k. >>>>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>>>>> you're >>>>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers. >>>>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>>>>> that school off and move on. >>>>>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very >>>>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I >>>>>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may >>>>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am >>>>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however, >>>>>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt >>>>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an >>>>>>>> extremely high-paying >>>>>> job. >>>>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not >>>>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect >>>>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered >>>>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to >>>>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I >>>>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is >>>>>>>> administered by the >>>>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a >>>>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) >>>>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should >>>>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>>>>> on a >>>>> curve. >>>>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively, >>>>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently >>>>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about >>>>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he >>>>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are >>>>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited >>>>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want >>>>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying >>>>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. >>>>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book, >>>>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the >>>>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>>>>> outline. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this >>>>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will >>>>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience >>>>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law >>>>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will >>>>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to >>>>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be >>>>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you >>>>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships, >>>>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will >>>>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious >>>>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one. >>>>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law >>>>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the >>>>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know >>>>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would >>>>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice? >>>>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan >>>>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a >>>>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is >>>>>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools >>>>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and >>>>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because >>>>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>>>>>> television. >>>>>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence >>>>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals >>>>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going >>>>>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional >>>>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in >>>>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>>>>> experiences >>>>>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>>>>> law but the >>>>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be >>>>>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice >>>>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may >>>>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the >>>>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was >>>>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>>>> decision. >>>>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others >>>>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know >>>>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does >>>>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal >>>>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply >>>>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties >>>>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>>>>> viewed by >>>>>> third persons. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you >>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful? >>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits >>>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There >>>>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace >>>>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if >>>>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure >>>>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, >>>>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic >>>>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong >>>>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>> goals. >>>>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>>>>> You'll >>>>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The >>>>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can >>>>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash >>>>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>>>>> courtesy >>>>>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>>>>> there other >>>>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In >>>>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years. >>>>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring >>>>>> true. >>>>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> moment. >>>>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and >>>>>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more >>>>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of >>>>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB >>>>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>>>>> official position of The >>>>>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which >>>>>>>>> test >>>>>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again, >>>>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't >>>>>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>>>>> g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From rodalcidonis at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 04:31:31 2019 From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 23:31:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C477CC4D4344A529FE4BDEDF52C9A56@LAPTOPD7H4OV38> This is a clear instance where you have to pick your battle as a blind attorney. This kind of task always get done by my assistant. While it would be helpful for you to know generally how it should be done, the actual task of doing it should be delegated to an admin assistant. This Is not even an accommodation issue, but rather indicative of good professional judgment on the job. This situation is analogous to an older attorney delegating the task of typing his hand-written work into the computer, which happens all the time in law offices around the country. Rod Alcidonis, Esq. -----Original Message----- From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 3:19 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: kelby carlson Subject: [blindlaw] Formatting Captions Do any of you know ways to quickly create and properly format captions for use with motions and other court filings? Do you have secretaries do it? I find this takes forever and interferes with the actual work I need to do. Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 06:16:39 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 06:16:39 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance In-Reply-To: References: <9290AEE9-F131-4295-A8D9-25C57C0870A8@gmail.com> <00fc01d49bda$506418a0$f12c49e0$@gmail.com> <989587164.2329645.1545710373283@mail.yahoo.com> <18a0a159-d019-2f0b-5d8b-0460e4e1c84e@yahoo.com> <2FC21738-9158-4C2C-806F-A97749698140@gmail.com> <018e01d49d6b$25988100$70c98300$@gmail.com> <00bd01d49eca$9183e6b0$b48bb410$@mdtap.org> <1cf84b2e-6535-6b12-0d0c-895839bbc202@yahoo.com> <1398A91E-FB11-402C-8449-DE6B48E8FEBD@gmail.com> <3F209B22-D4DE-467F-B2AC-DA5695CEDEFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Laura and everyone, Laura, I agree with you that great credentials may not always translate into opportunities commensurate with one's credentials. I also think that he focuses only on attitudinal barriers, not on infrastructural ones. Here's what my reply to him was: "Thank you for your valuable insights and nuanced and very carefully considered perspective. I think that it is certainly the case that, as Laura said in her email, a disabled professional must be prepared to face the psychological cost of battling discrimination -- perhaps not always the kind of overt discrimination of someone not giving you a job because you are disabled, but giving you no work, work of a lesser quality or finding facially neutral reasons for not hiring you. Every disabled person must be prepared to face these built-in headwinds. The reason why I was so keen to hear your view on this is because, even as it is important for those disabled lawyers who aren't able to get meaningful opportunities to find ways of getting past the barriers flowing from their disability, I think that it is also critical to recognize the significance of the success achieved by folks like Laura, who are able to climb the upper echelons of the profession despite facing these barriers. If we operate on the premise that their journey was no harder than that of any other lawyer, we brush under the carpet their ability to showcase some of the skills that you have alluded to and rob other disabled lawyers of the opportunity to learn from their experience. Also, I don't think that the barriers that disabled lawyers face in the US or elsewhere are only attitudinal. From screen reading software that often works in a sporadic fashion to large swaths of legal material that are still not fully accessible; from the difficulty associated in using specialized applications like track changes to going to locations that are physically inaccessible -  there are many infrastructural barriers that they must learn to face as well. Of course, there are employers who do adopt an enlightened perspective on the issue. I was fortunate to work at a firm where, on realizing that I couldn't do a particular thing because of my disability, my partner encouraged me to find a solution for the issue, saying that, given that I have come this far with my disability, there's no reason why I cannot slay this problem as well.  It is only if we acknowledge the proposition that the above problems are still alive and kicking that we will be able to start thinking about ways of solving them." Best, Rahul Best,

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On 04/01/2019, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: > I take this one step further and ask for extra time to explain my > technology. I do this as I had a grad interview and they asked how I would > work. most of the interview was taken up with me explaining my technology > and then I did not get the job. I think it is really important to separate > the disability accommodation discussion from the standard interview. > > > > Dr Paul Harpur > BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia > (non-practicing) > Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt > Institute, SU, New York. > Senior Lecturer > > TC Beirne School of Law > The University of Queensland > Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > > T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page > CRICOS code: 00025B > > > > > Scientia ac Labore > > This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the > addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of > Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any > transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is > prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and > notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do > not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby > carlson via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2019 12:40 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: kelby carlson > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance > > Laura, > > I definitely try and do this. I tend to think it is better to address these > issues head-on than to avoid them and hope the employer relies primarily on > my record. I mostly applied for public sector jobs, s,I ca't really predict > how firms might have responded to that approach. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Laura, you articulated my thoughts. I have asked similar questions during >> job interviews and have gotten similar responses. Both of the firms where >> I have worked answered those questions with something like, "we assume >> based on your record and resume that you can do the job." Not every firm >> responded this way. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, Rahul. I partially agree with him, but I think he >>> overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a >>> thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I >>> don't think that's really how it works. At least, that's certainly >>> not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL. I think that, even when >>> presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the >>> tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously, >>> that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was >>> lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient >>> with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it). I know >>> this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to >>> do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any >>> questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering >>> if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to >>> succeed and do bluebooking on the law review." This really caught >>> people off guard. Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about >>> that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from >>> them). But it worked. They almost never asked follow-up questions, >>> probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but >>> I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't >>> realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar >>> type things that without question would have impacted their decision >>> had they not gotten out in the open. >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I have complete confidence that top students with visible >>>> disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less >>>> confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. >>>> The >>>> key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a >>>> chance, >>>> whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It >>>> would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials >>>> resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there >>>> yet, and we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be >>>> somewhat less of a problem, as we do the very things (e.g. win at >>>> trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability >>>> to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in >>>> interviews. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have >>>>> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former >>>>> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him >>>>> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if >>>>> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a >>>>> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is >>>>> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of >>>>> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is >>>>> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what >>>>> his reply was: >>>>> >>>>> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of >>>>> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law >>>>> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position >>>>> here. >>>>> >>>>> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with >>>>> a disability. I think this primarily because they have already proven >>>>> they can >>>>> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there. >>>>> >>>>> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a >>>>> variety of measures. Certainly disability is a factor where potential >>>>> employers can >>>>> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether >>>>> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case >>>>> law and billable >>>>> hours, or public sector work. If the employer is honest with >>>>> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work >>>>> if the candidate has >>>>> other requisite skills and brain power. >>>>> >>>>> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper >>>>> focus. So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell >>>>> their skills, >>>>> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias >>>>> against hiring the disabled person. I'm not prepared to say how that >>>>> should be >>>>> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is >>>>> essential. One needs a track record to point out where he/she has >>>>> excelled in a variety >>>>> of work situations where the disability was not an issue. Support >>>>> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving >>>>> a better outcome. >>>>> >>>>> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people. >>>>> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers >>>>> aware of the need >>>>> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness. We know >>>>> that is not always going to happen. The public sector is, in my >>>>> experience, more >>>>> accommodating in this regard. The private sector is aware and as more >>>>> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known >>>>> within employment >>>>> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more >>>>> widespread. This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I >>>>> would like to think >>>>> so. >>>>> >>>>> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort >>>>> alone and do his/her best. >>>>> >>>>> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top >>>>> students or from top schools. They will not have the credentials of >>>>> the schools >>>>> going for them. So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely, >>>>> unfortunately, to be less. I can only say that persistence, hard-work >>>>> when opportunity >>>>> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential >>>>> employers that the candidate is not giving up. It always helps to >>>>> make contacts and >>>>> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests, >>>>> skills, and how you actually do your work. Let's face it, >>>>> non-disabled rarely think >>>>> about how they would do anything with a given disability. So, when >>>>> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific >>>>> disability. This >>>>> is the big obstacle for anyone-changing their thinking. >>>>> >>>>> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying. I know America may have a >>>>> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that >>>>> statement. The >>>>> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more >>>>> vocal than others. I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the >>>>> most well-known >>>>> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights. >>>>> >>>>> The battle will be more successful when the business communities >>>>> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability. >>>>> >>>>> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law >>>>> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did >>>>> well, had early >>>>> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking >>>>> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the >>>>> right time with the >>>>> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful >>>>> career. >>>>> >>>>> I'm blessed and grateful. The publicity I had over 20 years has, I >>>>> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success. The >>>>> woman working >>>>> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Let me end this with a simple observation. We all can't do what we >>>>> think we would like to do. There are several reasons that some >>>>> opportunities don't >>>>> work out for us. Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity, >>>>> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We >>>>> just do the best >>>>> we can with what we have. Life is like a card game-you may just have >>>>> to play the cards you are dealt. >>>>> >>>>> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may >>>>> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the >>>>> daunting obstacle >>>>> of making a living in a tough business. The legal education is >>>>> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal. >>>>> Today, there are more >>>>> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable >>>>> employment even when not disabled. It is a tough decision as to >>>>> whether to enter the >>>>> profession at all these day." >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely >>>>>> a >>>>>> vague >>>>>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. >>>>>> However, >>>>>> if >>>>>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say >>>>>> go >>>>>> for it. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim >>>>>> McCarthy >>>>>> via >>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM >>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but >>>>>> it >>>>>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most >>>>>> who >>>>>> have >>>>>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school >>>>>> in >>>>>> a >>>>>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with >>>>>> a >>>>>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally >>>>>> with >>>>>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything >>>>>> we >>>>>> do >>>>>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are >>>>>> prepared >>>>>> to >>>>>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required >>>>>> a >>>>>> law >>>>>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have >>>>>> been >>>>>> a >>>>>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has >>>>>> been >>>>>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law >>>>>> school >>>>>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are >>>>>> not >>>>>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was >>>>>> younger >>>>>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something >>>>>> like >>>>>> law >>>>>> school once they have families really struggle with the time >>>>>> commitment >>>>>> and >>>>>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about >>>>>> my >>>>>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog >>>>>> guide. >>>>>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a >>>>>> period >>>>>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that >>>>>> next >>>>>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions >>>>>> that >>>>>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of >>>>>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering >>>>>> if >>>>>> that >>>>>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent >>>>>> about >>>>>> it, take a different direction. >>>>>> Best >>>>>> Jim McCarthy >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Laura >>>>>> Wolk >>>>>> via BlindLaw >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>> >>>>>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents, >>>>>> especially >>>>>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a pretty >>>>>> darn >>>>>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day. >>>>>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that >>>>>> if >>>>>> you >>>>>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing >>>>>> gmore >>>>>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in >>>>>> government >>>>>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..." >>>>>> you're >>>>>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has >>>>>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and >>>>>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one >>>>>> already >>>>>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. >>>>>> is >>>>>> a >>>>>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a >>>>>> professional, >>>>>> practical reason for getting one. >>>>>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality. no >>>>>> offense >>>>>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless >>>>>> one >>>>>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top >>>>>> 25. >>>>>> There are reasons to deviate from this. For instance, if the school >>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, >>>>>> go >>>>>> for >>>>>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking >>>>>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to >>>>>> being >>>>>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. >>>>>> Otherwise, >>>>>> probably best to save your time and money. >>>>>> >>>>>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in >>>>>> and >>>>>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to >>>>>> my >>>>>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). >>>>>> It >>>>>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from >>>>>> more >>>>>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside >>>>>> my >>>>>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn >>>>>> from >>>>>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of >>>>>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It >>>>>> was >>>>>> one >>>>>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most >>>>>> highly >>>>>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to >>>>>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I >>>>>> would >>>>>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is >>>>>> about >>>>>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about >>>>>> my >>>>>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say >>>>>> is >>>>>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of >>>>>> people >>>>>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> Good evening: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job >>>>>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities >>>>>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive >>>>>> positions. A law >>>>>>> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those >>>>>>> opportunities. >>>>>>> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment >>>>>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing >>>>>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services. >>>>>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful >>>>>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and >>>>>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Luis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM >>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where to start? >>>>>>> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful >>>>>>> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks >>>>>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably >>>>>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to >>>>>>> undertake >>>>>>> and complete the process. >>>>>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call >>>>>>> center >>>>>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western >>>>>>> NY. I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same >>>>>> position. >>>>>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility >>>>>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so >>>>>>> many of us captive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the >>>>>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I >>>>>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of >>>>>>> this questionable goal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no >>>>>>> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. >>>>>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a >>>>>>> home >>>>>>> and have other foundations laid. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably >>>>>>> high level to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law >>>>>>> degree >>>>>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am interested? Or, would diving right into civil service exams and >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? >>>>>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at >>>>>>> least >>>>>>> full time work. Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed >>>>>>> halls >>>>>>> of UB law school. By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in >>>>>>> good company accepting the GRE. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warm regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura >>>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real >>>>>>>> question is, >>>>>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school >>>>>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse. >>>>>>>> A few points: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance >>>>>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the >>>>>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in >>>>>>> tuition. I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to >>>>>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio >>>>>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a >>>>>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a >>>>>>> bit >>>>>>> less hair than I did before starting. >>>>>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do >>>>>>>> well >>>>>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games >>>>>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> my knowledge. >>>>>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation. >>>>>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a >>>>>>>> ton >>>>>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it. >>>>>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>> accepts the GRE. >>>>>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the >>>>>>>> T20. >>>>>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even >>>>>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and >>>>>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top >>>>>>> 10% >>>>>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the >>>>>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio >>>>>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than >>>>>>> $35k. >>>>>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless >>>>>>>> you're >>>>>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement >>>>>>> numbers. >>>>>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement >>>>>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write >>>>>>> that school off and move on. >>>>>>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will explain why at some length. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least >>>>>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to >>>>>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) >>>>>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and >>>>>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening >>>>>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career >>>>>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, >>>>>>>>> however, >>>>>>>>> that you will be taking on a considerable amount of debt. This >>>>>>>>> debt >>>>>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> extremely high-paying >>>>>>> job. >>>>>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were >>>>>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I >>>>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best >>>>>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and >>>>>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with >>>>>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that >>>>>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is >>>>>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score >>>>>>>>> suffered >>>>>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with >>>>>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. >>>>>>>>> (I >>>>>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> administered by the >>>>>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to >>>>>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend >>>>>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law >>>>>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus >>>>>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the >>>>>>>>> top.) >>>>>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really >>>>>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious >>>>>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given >>>>>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. >>>>>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your >>>>>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. >>>>>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded >>>>>>>>> on a >>>>>> curve. >>>>>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well >>>>>>>>> objectively, >>>>>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates >>>>>>>>> consistently >>>>>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are >>>>>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job >>>>>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult >>>>>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very >>>>>>>>> limited >>>>>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be >>>>>>>>> studying >>>>>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by >>>>>>>>> exams. >>>>>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are >>>>>>>>> open-book, >>>>>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the >>>>>>>>> outline. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening >>>>>>>>> student--this >>>>>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting >>>>>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor >>>>>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's >>>>>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is >>>>>>>>> definitely for you.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who >>>>>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during >>>>>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming >>>>>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, >>>>>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if >>>>>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful >>>>>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of >>>>>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and >>>>>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying >>>>>>>>> internships, >>>>>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent >>>>>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will >>>>>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from >>>>>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will >>>>>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because >>>>>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like >>>>>>>>> prestigious >>>>>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their >>>>>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get >>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will >>>>>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you >>>>>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless >>>>>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your >>>>>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an >>>>>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get >>>>>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you >>>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot >>>>>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively >>>>>>>>> plan >>>>>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice >>>>>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say >>>>>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious >>>>>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every >>>>>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> no, you should not go. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is >>>>>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law >>>>>>>>> schools >>>>>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to >>>>>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not >>>>>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on >>>>>>>>> television. >>>>>>>>> This video is essentially accurate: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there >>>>>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps >>>>>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for >>>>>>>>> Clarence >>>>>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a >>>>>>>>> lot of people will not. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kelby Carlson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am >>>>>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I >>>>>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous >>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of >>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>> to law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a >>>>>>>>>> non-traditional >>>>>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC >>>>>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters >>>>>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current >>>>>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I >>>>>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent >>>>>>>>>> experiences >>>>>>> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing >>>>>>> law but the >>>>>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely >>>>>>>>>> daunting. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing >>>>>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any >>>>>>>>>> advice >>>>>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and >>>>>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately. >>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greetings Maura. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already >>>>>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and >>>>>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my >>>>>> decision. >>>>>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to >>>>>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right >>>>>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you >>>>>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be >>>>>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind >>>>>>>>>> lawyers). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from >>>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah, >>>>>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls >>>>>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know >>>>>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find >>>>>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new >>>>>>>>>> year. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bill Spiry >>>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC >>>>>>>>>> (541) 600-3301 >>>>>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com >>>>>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik >>>>>>>>>> Weihenmayer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email >>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be >>>>>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a >>>>>>>>>> formal >>>>>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain >>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is >>>>>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT, >>>>>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM >>>>>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended >>>>>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient >>>>>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the >>>>>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or >>>>>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would >>>>>>>>>> reply >>>>>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments >>>>>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's >>>>>>> privilege by misdelivered email. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third >>>>>>>>>> parties >>>>>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication. By using email to >>>>>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any >>>>>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and >>>>>>>>>> viewed by >>>>>>> third persons. >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Maura >>>>>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input >>>>>>>>>> useful? >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for >>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits >>>>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>>>>> As to your questions: >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high >>>>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations >>>>>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT >>>>>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. >>>>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to >>>>>>>>>> ace >>>>>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic >>>>>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, >>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering. >>>>>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>> transition. All >>>>>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years >>>>>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for >>>>>>>>>> high-pressure >>>>>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. >>>>>>>>>> Yet, >>>>>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways, >>>>>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be >>>>>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money >>>>>>>>>> dynamic >>>>>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top >>>>>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing >>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>> goals. >>>>>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. >>>>>>>>>>> You'll >>>>>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law >>>>>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a >>>>>>>>>> crash >>>>>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a >>>>>>>>>> courtesy >>>>>>> they could approve or deny at will. >>>>>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing. >>>>>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much >>>>>>>>>>> there other >>>>>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing >>>>>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early >>>>>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who >>>>>>>>>> took >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> "non-traditional" path. >>>>>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law >>>>>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane >>>>>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three >>>>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the >>>>>>>>>>> best! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words >>>>>>>>>>>> ring >>>>>>> true. >>>>>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> moment. >>>>>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> take the >>>>>>>>>> plunge. Go for it! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International >>>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished >>>>>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>>>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future >>>>>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International >>>>>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>>>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au >>>>>>>>>>>>> TCB >>>>>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS >>>>>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The >>>>>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are >>>>>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or >>>>>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly >>>>>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the >>>>>>>>>> official position of The >>>>>>> University of Queensland. >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants, >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where >>>>>>>>>> please point the way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the >>>>>>>>>>>>> influence of a >>>>>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next >>>>>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More >>>>>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this >>>>>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email >>>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly make >>>>>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what >>>>>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of >>>>>>>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The >>>>>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in >>>>>>>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA >>>>>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> test >>>>>>> is more friendly to the blind. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question >>>>>>>>>>>>> is, are >>>>>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from >>>>>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful >>>>>>>>>> start. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many >>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. >>>>>>>>>> Again, >>>>>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> hesitate to redirect. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur >>>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> k%4 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40 >>>>>>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>>>>>> aho >>>>>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>> 40g >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.s.spiry%40g >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol. >>>>>>>>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson% >>>>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40 >>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmendez716%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > -- -- Rahul Bajaj Candidate for the BCL Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018) University of Oxford From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Fri Jan 4 18:20:28 2019 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:20:28 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Case Management Software/Program In-Reply-To: <007601d49d46$5d007690$170163b0$@gmail.com> References: <007601d49d46$5d007690$170163b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <525F0B1C-21DE-4D26-B2EC-EF37B5D53A6E@pima.gov> All I can say is, stay away from JustWare / New Dawn Technologies. It is not even user-friendly to sighted folks, and definitely useless to anyone requiring screen narration...you will occassional hear “edit box”, but that’s it. Could it be scripted? Possibly, but the public defender office where I work will not pay for it, saying it’s enough to give me an ADA assistant - who must also deal with the inaccessible disclosure packets, .tif / .jpg scans of pleadings, etc...without having access to the one (very inferior) OCR program in our division. We make do by creating shadow files in Word, with which I can then create One Note files to my preferences. Susan C L Kelly Assistant Public Defender Pima County Public Defenders Office - Juvenile DIvision Ofc: 520-724-2994 Fax: 520-770-4168 On Dec 26, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Will Burley via BlindLaw > wrote: ******* This message and sender come from outside Pima County. If you did not expect this message, proceed with caution. Verify the sender's identity before performing any action, such as clicking on a link or opening an attachment. ******* Greetings all, I hope everyone had a great Christmas! I believe I may have seen this on the list in the past but haven't been able to locate the emails. I'm a paralegal and am wondering what case management program people here have found accessible or more accessible to perform the essential duties of their legal job. My firm uses Legal Files and I really loathe it because I have to do JAWS searches to get to everything. The screen is set up in sectors so a simple tabbing doesn't work as it causes the screen reader to miss information. We use Legal Files for: Calendaring To-Do's Case notes Phone log notes Document storage and We can save emails directly from Outlook into a person's file Basically, it's our online filing system. What programs are you using in your practice and how accessible have you found it? Note: We just got some scripts to get to the major parts of the program but this is still lacking in a major way. Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am looking to provide my job with some alternatives to look at over the next year. Will Burley Administrative Law and Litigation Paralegal _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 19:02:48 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 14:02:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Case Management Software/Program In-Reply-To: <525F0B1C-21DE-4D26-B2EC-EF37B5D53A6E@pima.gov> References: <007601d49d46$5d007690$170163b0$@gmail.com> <525F0B1C-21DE-4D26-B2EC-EF37B5D53A6E@pima.gov> Message-ID: The Prosecution Management System we use is totally inaccessible, but fortunately not everyone in the office uses it. One of my coworkers knows the developer, so we are hoping to get it re-coded for screen readers. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 4, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Susan Kelly via BlindLaw wrote: > > All I can say is, stay away from JustWare / New Dawn Technologies. It is not even user-friendly to sighted folks, and definitely useless to anyone requiring screen narration...you will occassional hear “edit box”, but that’s it. Could it be scripted? Possibly, but the public defender office where I work will not pay for it, saying it’s enough to give me an ADA assistant - who must also deal with the inaccessible disclosure packets, .tif / .jpg scans of pleadings, etc...without having access to the one (very inferior) OCR program in our division. We make do by creating shadow files in Word, with which I can then create One Note files to my preferences. > > Susan C L Kelly > Assistant Public Defender > Pima County Public Defenders Office - Juvenile DIvision > Ofc: 520-724-2994 > Fax: 520-770-4168 > > On Dec 26, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Will Burley via BlindLaw > wrote: > > ******* > This message and sender come from outside Pima County. If you did not expect this message, proceed with caution. Verify the sender's identity before performing any action, such as clicking on a link or opening an attachment. > ******* > > > > Greetings all, > > > > I hope everyone had a great Christmas! I believe I may have seen this on > the list in the past but haven't been able to locate the emails. > > > > I'm a paralegal and am wondering what case management program people here > have found accessible or more accessible to perform the essential duties of > their legal job. > > > > My firm uses Legal Files and I really loathe it because I have to do JAWS > searches to get to everything. The screen is set up in sectors so a simple > tabbing doesn't work as it causes the screen reader to miss information. > > > > We use Legal Files for: > > > > Calendaring > > To-Do's > > Case notes > > Phone log notes > > Document storage and > > We can save emails directly from Outlook into a person's file > > > > Basically, it's our online filing system. What programs are you using in > your practice and how accessible have you found it? > > > > Note: We just got some scripts to get to the major parts of the program but > this is still lacking in a major way. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am looking to provide my job with some > alternatives to look at over the next year. > > > > Will Burley > > Administrative Law and Litigation Paralegal > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From alpineimagination at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:07:03 2019 From: alpineimagination at gmail.com (Vejas Vasiliauskas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 13:07:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Becoming a Paralegal Message-ID: Hi All, My name is Vejas Vasiliauskas and I am a third-year English major in college. Although I have always loved English, I had been wavering between different career paths but now feel that I would like to be a paralegal working to prepare cases. I have heard that it is possible to become a paralegal with an English degree and am looking to see what support my school has to offer. I wanted to ask other paralegals what requirements are necessary to become one, as well as any accessibility barriers you have encountered over the years. Thank you, Vejas From rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 23:37:20 2019 From: rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com (bob morrissey) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:37:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Becoming a Paralegal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002301d4a486$7114d2b0$533e7810$@com> Hello, I was an English major in college. I then trained and spent 35 years working in Information Technology for large corporations. Following my career in IT, I trained and became a Certified Paralegal. If you would like more detail, contact me off list. Good luck. bob Morrissey rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Vejas Vasiliauskas via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 4:07 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Vejas Vasiliauskas Subject: [blindlaw] Becoming a Paralegal Hi All, My name is Vejas Vasiliauskas and I am a third-year English major in college. Although I have always loved English, I had been wavering between different career paths but now feel that I would like to be a paralegal working to prepare cases. I have heard that it is possible to become a paralegal with an English degree and am looking to see what support my school has to offer. I wanted to ask other paralegals what requirements are necessary to become one, as well as any accessibility barriers you have encountered over the years. Thank you, Vejas _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjmorrissey26%40gmail. com From rthomas48 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 04:59:19 2019 From: rthomas48 at gmail.com (Roderick Thomas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 23:59:19 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] case management Message-ID: <332732f6-1b7f-4ef8-6be7-f5a8b466705a@gmail.com> Hey guys, I am entering in to my last semester in law school, and I will be participating in the legal defense clinic at my school. However, the case management system that the school will be using is not compatible with Jaws and I will be the first blind law school student graduating from my law school. What can I do now to help me overcome this issue because I would like to be a state prosecutor or a public defender after passing the bar exam? From lakeria2009 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 22:27:37 2019 From: lakeria2009 at gmail.com (LaKeria Taylor) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:27:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School Message-ID: Hi everyone, So I know that I have asked a LSAT question here before because I am going to study for it once I get my Bachelor's degree. I am struggling with two things at the moment: I like anything in the field of International Relations, but I also love reading and analyzing court cases and can see myself working in lidigation or something to do with International law. Because I like both things, I have been kind of considering getting my Master's degree first and then applying to law school because I don't really see myself getting a Ph.D. to further my career, but the other thing is the testing for both, the money, time, and energy you have to put into law school and the cost of law school, the cost of a master's, etc. Getting a scholarship to move from my bachelor's to grad school is not an option, so cost for me is a major factor. My other thing is the research, but when researching for your work in law school, what's the difference in the work as far as math and that sort of thing goes? How would you guys approach this situation? I know that this is a lot and you all are not in my head, but some other people's food for thought can't help. Thanks, Lakeria From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 22:47:31 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 17:47:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> Making the choice between grad school and law school is like making the choice between lethal injection and the electric chair. Both are terrible options. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 5, 2019, at 5:27 PM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > So I know that I have asked a LSAT question here before because I am > going to study for it once I get my Bachelor's degree. I am struggling > with two things at the moment: > I like anything in the field of International Relations, but I also > love reading and analyzing court cases and can see myself working in > lidigation or something to do with International law. Because I like > both things, I have been kind of considering getting my Master's > degree first and then applying to law school because I don't really > see myself getting a Ph.D. to further my career, but the other thing > is the testing for both, the money, time, and energy you have to put > into law school and the cost of law school, the cost of a master's, > etc. Getting a scholarship to move from my bachelor's to grad school > is not an option, so cost for me is a major factor. > My other thing is the research, but when researching for your work in > law school, what's the difference in the work as far as math and that > sort of thing goes? How would you guys approach this situation? > I know that this is a lot and you all are not in my head, but some > other people's food for thought can't help. > Thanks, > Lakeria > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From wickps at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 23:52:40 2019 From: wickps at gmail.com (Paul Wick) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 15:52:40 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School In-Reply-To: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> References: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D8765FE-3362-4745-9628-24CE21248408@gmail.com> It’s much harder to get into even the lowest ranked graduate program then it is to the lowest ranked law schools. I would choose based on marketability; there’s not that much outside of practicing law that nonlaw employers will take a law graduate seriously for. Just a reality check, but the vast majority of lawyers have no chance to practice international law, or most of the other vague notions that people come to law school with. Paul Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 5, 2019, at 2:47 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > Making the choice between grad school and law school is like making the choice between lethal injection and the electric chair. Both are terrible options. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 5, 2019, at 5:27 PM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> So I know that I have asked a LSAT question here before because I am >> going to study for it once I get my Bachelor's degree. I am struggling >> with two things at the moment: >> I like anything in the field of International Relations, but I also >> love reading and analyzing court cases and can see myself working in >> lidigation or something to do with International law. Because I like >> both things, I have been kind of considering getting my Master's >> degree first and then applying to law school because I don't really >> see myself getting a Ph.D. to further my career, but the other thing >> is the testing for both, the money, time, and energy you have to put >> into law school and the cost of law school, the cost of a master's, >> etc. Getting a scholarship to move from my bachelor's to grad school >> is not an option, so cost for me is a major factor. >> My other thing is the research, but when researching for your work in >> law school, what's the difference in the work as far as math and that >> sort of thing goes? How would you guys approach this situation? >> I know that this is a lot and you all are not in my head, but some >> other people's food for thought can't help. >> Thanks, >> Lakeria >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/wickps%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 23:59:57 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:59:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School In-Reply-To: <4D8765FE-3362-4745-9628-24CE21248408@gmail.com> References: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> <4D8765FE-3362-4745-9628-24CE21248408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <039F8367-6E81-418F-A72C-EB8CBDB1713C@gmail.com> Paul, That's not a comparison I usually hear—wouldn't this depend on the type of graduate program? I frankly have a difficult time imagining, for example, that it is radically more difficult to gain entrance to the Yale philosophy department then to Yale Law School—though I could certainly be wrong. You are entirely correct about marketability and the utility of a law degree for a non-legal job, however. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 5, 2019, at 6:52 PM, Paul Wick via BlindLaw wrote: > > It’s much harder to get into even the lowest ranked graduate program then it is to the lowest ranked law schools. I would choose based on marketability; there’s not that much outside of practicing law that nonlaw employers will take a law graduate seriously for. Just a reality check, but the vast majority of lawyers have no chance to practice international law, or most of the other vague notions that people come to law school with. > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 5, 2019, at 2:47 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Making the choice between grad school and law school is like making the choice between lethal injection and the electric chair. Both are terrible options. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 5, 2019, at 5:27 PM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> So I know that I have asked a LSAT question here before because I am >>> going to study for it once I get my Bachelor's degree. I am struggling >>> with two things at the moment: >>> I like anything in the field of International Relations, but I also >>> love reading and analyzing court cases and can see myself working in >>> lidigation or something to do with International law. Because I like >>> both things, I have been kind of considering getting my Master's >>> degree first and then applying to law school because I don't really >>> see myself getting a Ph.D. to further my career, but the other thing >>> is the testing for both, the money, time, and energy you have to put >>> into law school and the cost of law school, the cost of a master's, >>> etc. Getting a scholarship to move from my bachelor's to grad school >>> is not an option, so cost for me is a major factor. >>> My other thing is the research, but when researching for your work in >>> law school, what's the difference in the work as far as math and that >>> sort of thing goes? How would you guys approach this situation? >>> I know that this is a lot and you all are not in my head, but some >>> other people's food for thought can't help. >>> Thanks, >>> Lakeria >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/wickps%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From nmpbrat at aol.com Sun Jan 6 01:30:17 2019 From: nmpbrat at aol.com (nmpbrat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:30:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School In-Reply-To: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> References: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <677950516.6821470.1546738217421@mail.yahoo.com> I respectfully disagree to the part where you said "Both are terrible options".  I haven't gone to law school so I can't speak directly to that but I have been to and completed grad school and frankly, I enjoyed it...I mean, as much as one can enjoy having to go back to school and having to shell out thousands of dollars to do it.  I would agree that marketability would be better with grad school.  I think there are more options once you're done.  I also think grad school can be cheaper than law school but that of course also depends on which grad school and program you enter.   -----Original Message----- From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: kelby carlson Sent: Sat, Jan 5, 2019 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School Making the choice between grad school and law school is like making the choice between lethal injection and the electric chair. Both are terrible options. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 5, 2019, at 5:27 PM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > So I know that I have asked a LSAT question here before because I am > going to study for it once I get my Bachelor's degree. I am struggling > with two things at the moment: > I like anything in the field of International Relations, but I also > love reading and analyzing court cases and can see myself working in > lidigation or something to do with International law. Because I like > both things, I have been kind of considering getting my Master's > degree first and then applying to law school because I don't really > see myself getting a Ph.D. to further my career, but the other thing > is the testing for both, the money, time, and energy you have to put > into law school and the cost of law school, the cost of a master's, > etc. Getting a scholarship to move from my bachelor's to grad school > is not an option, so cost for me is a major factor. > My other thing is the research, but when researching for your work in > law school, what's the difference in the work as far as math and that > sort of thing goes? How would you guys approach this situation? > I know that this is a lot and you all are not in my head, but some > other people's food for thought can't help. > Thanks, > Lakeria > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nmpbrat%40aol.com From ETroutman at BrooksPierce.com Mon Jan 7 14:20:36 2019 From: ETroutman at BrooksPierce.com (Elizabeth Troutman) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:20:36 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school Message-ID: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. Elizabeth Troutman [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] t: 336.271.3138 f: 336.232.9138 2000 Renaissance Plaza 230 North Elm Street Greensboro, NC 27401 P.O. Box 26000 (27420) Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the person transmitting the information immediately. This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4402 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:36:45 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:36:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> Message-ID: <669d6fef-c9e5-58ef-76a6-ac5aae749db9@yahoo.com> Fully agreed. I got a Ph.D., in part because I was somewhat interested in an academic career, and in part because I wanted to study the material at a higher level. While I benefited in some ways from this process, I am now, in effect, ten years behind everyone else in my legal career. The journey is great, but having a firm sense of one's destination is much more important. On 1/7/2019 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw wrote: > You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. > > Elizabeth Troutman > > [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] > > t: 336.271.3138 > f: 336.232.9138 > > 2000 Renaissance Plaza > 230 North Elm Street > Greensboro, NC 27401 > P.O. Box 26000 (27420) > > Confidentiality Notice: > > The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the person transmitting the information immediately. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:18:23 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:18:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> Message-ID: <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given path will be. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw wrote: > > You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. > > Elizabeth Troutman > > [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] > > t: 336.271.3138 > f: 336.232.9138 > > 2000 Renaissance Plaza > 230 North Elm Street > Greensboro, NC 27401 > P.O. Box 26000 (27420) > > Confidentiality Notice: > > The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the person transmitting the information immediately. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:31:10 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:31:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's just say it would help to have connections in the right places. On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given path will be. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >> >> Elizabeth Troutman >> >> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >> >> t: 336.271.3138 >> f: 336.232.9138 >> >> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >> 230 North Elm Street >> Greensboro, NC 27401 >> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >> >> Confidentiality Notice: >> >> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >> >> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Mon Jan 7 15:31:47 2019 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:31:47 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] case management In-Reply-To: <332732f6-1b7f-4ef8-6be7-f5a8b466705a@gmail.com> References: <332732f6-1b7f-4ef8-6be7-f5a8b466705a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF33A88-5BF5-4AF5-A917-AB9AA4A8659A@pima.gov> Our case management software is completely inaccessible as well. My secretary creates duplicate files for me in WOrd so that I can access the documents, which I then set up in my own One Note files. It is a laborious process, but pretty much the only way to deal with. I have heard that some of the programs can be scripted, but unless the school (or you employer, in the future) is willing to pay for this AND the program is sufficiently logical to allow easy navigation once that is done (and ours is not easily navigated, even by sighted users), it is probably the best workaround to have the duplicate Word files. Susan C L Kelly Assistant Public Defender Pima County Public Defenders Office - Juvenile DIvision Ofc: 520-724-2994 Fax: 520-770-4168 On Jan 4, 2019, at 10:23 PM, Roderick Thomas via BlindLaw > wrote: ******* This message and sender come from outside Pima County. If you did not expect this message, proceed with caution. Verify the sender's identity before performing any action, such as clicking on a link or opening an attachment. ******* Hey guys, I am entering in to my last semester in law school, and I will be participating in the legal defense clinic at my school. However, the case management system that the school will be using is not compatible with Jaws and I will be the first blind law school student graduating from my law school. What can I do now to help me overcome this issue because I would like to be a state prosecutor or a public defender after passing the bar exam? _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov From lakeria2009 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:41:04 2019 From: lakeria2009 at gmail.com (LaKeria Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:41:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> Message-ID: James, What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort of thing. On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a > good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want > something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will > be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person > to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still > will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's > just say it would help to have connections in the right places. > > > On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >> path will be. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>> >>> Elizabeth >>> Troutman >>> >>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>> >>> t: 336.271.3138 >>> f: 336.232.9138 >>> >>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>> 230 North Elm Street >>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>> >>> Confidentiality Notice: >>> >>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>> >>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com > From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:49:42 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:49:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> Intellectually, law school was much easier than my Ph.D. program. In terms of general anxiety, stress, long hours, etc., it was probably a bit harder. I had more reading for the Ph.D. program but also a lot more autonomy and control over my time. There's nothing more fun than having a 3l check up on you every day about a law review editing assignment, even as basic accommodations are being denied. But the job market for law is just so much more open than it was in my former field. If you can get a Ph.D. without taking on debt, and you love the field you're in, and you know going in that your chances of landing an academic or any other high-paying job are limited, and you're a bit of a masochist, then go for it. But if (and only if) you know that you want to become a lawyer, then go to law school. Or if you want to become a legal academic, and your Ph.D. is in something that can be related to the law, then do both. Just be prepared for an extremely overcrowded job market and be ready to practice for awhile first. On 1/7/2019 10:41 AM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: > James, > > What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? > > Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but > things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. > Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of > things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I > am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose > law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more > experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort > of thing. > > > On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a >> good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want >> something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will >> be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person >> to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still >> will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's >> just say it would help to have connections in the right places. >> >> >> On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >>> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >>> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >>> path will be. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth >>>> Troutman >>>> >>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>>> >>>> t: 336.271.3138 >>>> f: 336.232.9138 >>>> >>>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>>> 230 North Elm Street >>>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>> >>>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>>> >>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Mon Jan 7 16:43:38 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:43:38 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Choosing Graduate School or Law School In-Reply-To: <4D8765FE-3362-4745-9628-24CE21248408@gmail.com> References: <2C66EA8A-A7E6-43CE-94B0-D006F68F138F@gmail.com> <4D8765FE-3362-4745-9628-24CE21248408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004b01d4a6a8$23bde0f0$6b39a2d0$@com> What is international law anyway? Whose jurisdiction takes precedence? Which court takes on domestic violence or family disputes at the international level? What exactly is "international" and from whose perspective is it so defined? All that aside, there are law programs that would let one enroll in both international studies at the graduate level and law school. In the end, one obtains an M.A.-JD degree; I think it takes about four years or perhaps five. Perhaps if the desire is to work or serve in a government agency, or with groups like Green Peace, it might be workable or feasible. Being able to speak another major language other than English might be helpful. In this respect, consider French, Spanish or Chinese. Whatever the final decision is, just remember that legalese isn't the same across the board from one country to another. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 00:19:32 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 19:19:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <824CECAD-D2E2-42E1-98FD-C0F9E1445757@gmail.com> James and I are not fully in agreement on the overall utility of law school, but his advice here is golden. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:49 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > Intellectually, law school was much easier than my Ph.D. program. In terms of general anxiety, stress, long hours, etc., it was probably a bit harder. I had more reading for the Ph.D. program but also a lot more autonomy and control over my time. There's nothing more fun than having a 3l check up on you every day about a law review editing assignment, even as basic accommodations are being denied. But the job market for law is just so much more open than it was in my former field. > > If you can get a Ph.D. without taking on debt, and you love the field you're in, and you know going in that your chances of landing an academic or any other high-paying job are limited, and you're a bit of a masochist, then go for it. But if (and only if) you know that you want to become a lawyer, then go to law school. Or if you want to become a legal academic, and your Ph.D. is in something that can be related to the law, then do both. Just be prepared for an extremely overcrowded job market and be ready to practice for awhile first. > > >> On 1/7/2019 10:41 AM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >> James, >> >> What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? >> >> Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but >> things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. >> Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of >> things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I >> am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose >> law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more >> experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort >> of thing. >> >> >>> On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a >>> good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want >>> something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will >>> be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person >>> to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still >>> will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's >>> just say it would help to have connections in the right places. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >>>> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >>>> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >>>> path will be. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>>>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>>>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>>>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>>>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>>>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>>>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>>>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>>>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> Troutman >>>>> >>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>>>> >>>>> t: 336.271.3138 >>>>> f: 336.232.9138 >>>>> >>>>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>>>> 230 North Elm Street >>>>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>>>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>>>> >>>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>>> >>>>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>>>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>>>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>>>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>>>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>>>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>>>> >>>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From lakeria2009 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 02:30:53 2019 From: lakeria2009 at gmail.com (Lakeria Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:30:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <824CECAD-D2E2-42E1-98FD-C0F9E1445757@gmail.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> <824CECAD-D2E2-42E1-98FD-C0F9E1445757@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why did you hate law school? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:19 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > James and I are not fully in agreement on the overall utility of law school, but his advice here is golden. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:49 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Intellectually, law school was much easier than my Ph.D. program. In terms of general anxiety, stress, long hours, etc., it was probably a bit harder. I had more reading for the Ph.D. program but also a lot more autonomy and control over my time. There's nothing more fun than having a 3l check up on you every day about a law review editing assignment, even as basic accommodations are being denied. But the job market for law is just so much more open than it was in my former field. >> >> If you can get a Ph.D. without taking on debt, and you love the field you're in, and you know going in that your chances of landing an academic or any other high-paying job are limited, and you're a bit of a masochist, then go for it. But if (and only if) you know that you want to become a lawyer, then go to law school. Or if you want to become a legal academic, and your Ph.D. is in something that can be related to the law, then do both. Just be prepared for an extremely overcrowded job market and be ready to practice for awhile first. >> >> >>> On 1/7/2019 10:41 AM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >>> James, >>> >>> What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? >>> >>> Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but >>> things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. >>> Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of >>> things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I >>> am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose >>> law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more >>> experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort >>> of thing. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a >>>> good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want >>>> something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will >>>> be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person >>>> to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still >>>> will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's >>>> just say it would help to have connections in the right places. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >>>>> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >>>>> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >>>>> path will be. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>>>>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>>>>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>>>>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>>>>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>>>>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>>>>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>>>>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>>>>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>>>>> >>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>> Troutman >>>>>> >>>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>>>>> >>>>>> t: 336.271.3138 >>>>>> f: 336.232.9138 >>>>>> >>>>>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>>>>> 230 North Elm Street >>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>>>>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>>>>> >>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>>>> >>>>>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>>>>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>>>>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>>>>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>>>>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>>>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>>>>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>>>>> >>>>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 19:00:45 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:00:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> <824CECAD-D2E2-42E1-98FD-C0F9E1445757@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26904D47-505C-455A-860F-59F0DE81597F@gmail.com> I didn't hate law school, in fact there were a number of things I quite liked about it. Whether I liked it or not is not the same question as whether I think it is a good idea for most people; I've given reasons why I think the vast majority of the time it is a mistake elsewhere (see the thread "Seeking Guidance" for extensive discussion.) Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Lakeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: > > Why did you hate law school? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:19 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James and I are not fully in agreement on the overall utility of law school, but his advice here is golden. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:49 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Intellectually, law school was much easier than my Ph.D. program. In terms of general anxiety, stress, long hours, etc., it was probably a bit harder. I had more reading for the Ph.D. program but also a lot more autonomy and control over my time. There's nothing more fun than having a 3l check up on you every day about a law review editing assignment, even as basic accommodations are being denied. But the job market for law is just so much more open than it was in my former field. >>> >>> If you can get a Ph.D. without taking on debt, and you love the field you're in, and you know going in that your chances of landing an academic or any other high-paying job are limited, and you're a bit of a masochist, then go for it. But if (and only if) you know that you want to become a lawyer, then go to law school. Or if you want to become a legal academic, and your Ph.D. is in something that can be related to the law, then do both. Just be prepared for an extremely overcrowded job market and be ready to practice for awhile first. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/7/2019 10:41 AM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> James, >>>> >>>> What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? >>>> >>>> Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but >>>> things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. >>>> Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of >>>> things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I >>>> am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose >>>> law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more >>>> experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort >>>> of thing. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a >>>>> good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want >>>>> something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will >>>>> be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person >>>>> to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still >>>>> will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's >>>>> just say it would help to have connections in the right places. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >>>>>> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >>>>>> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >>>>>> path will be. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>>>>>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>>>>>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>>>>>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>>>>>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>>>>>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>>>>>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>>>>>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>>>>>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>>> Troutman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> t: 336.271.3138 >>>>>>> f: 336.232.9138 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>>>>>> 230 North Elm Street >>>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>>>>>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>>>>>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>>>>>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>>>>>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>>>>>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>>>>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>>>>>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:50:37 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:50:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] choosing graduate school or law school In-Reply-To: <26904D47-505C-455A-860F-59F0DE81597F@gmail.com> References: <847d0264dc5743929d9dd56d84466627@BrooksPierce.com> <96955F14-DDF4-4AFB-A457-FA7D9D294CA4@gmail.com> <1511e074-ac3e-bc8e-bfbf-8da9400aa0fb@yahoo.com> <717b5605-8c82-9637-83a0-637dff8c0f96@yahoo.com> <824CECAD-D2E2-42E1-98FD-C0F9E1445757@gmail.com> <26904D47-505C-455A-860F-59F0DE81597F@gmail.com> Message-ID: By the way Kelby, that video is hilarious. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Jan 8, 2019, at 2:00 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > I didn't hate law school, in fact there were a number of things I quite liked about it. Whether I liked it or not is not the same question as whether I think it is a good idea for most people; I've given reasons why I think the vast majority of the time it is a mistake elsewhere (see the thread "Seeking Guidance" for extensive discussion.) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Lakeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Why did you hate law school? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:19 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James and I are not fully in agreement on the overall utility of law school, but his advice here is golden. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:49 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> Intellectually, law school was much easier than my Ph.D. program. In terms of general anxiety, stress, long hours, etc., it was probably a bit harder. I had more reading for the Ph.D. program but also a lot more autonomy and control over my time. There's nothing more fun than having a 3l check up on you every day about a law review editing assignment, even as basic accommodations are being denied. But the job market for law is just so much more open than it was in my former field. >>>> >>>> If you can get a Ph.D. without taking on debt, and you love the field you're in, and you know going in that your chances of landing an academic or any other high-paying job are limited, and you're a bit of a masochist, then go for it. But if (and only if) you know that you want to become a lawyer, then go to law school. Or if you want to become a legal academic, and your Ph.D. is in something that can be related to the law, then do both. Just be prepared for an extremely overcrowded job market and be ready to practice for awhile first. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1/7/2019 10:41 AM, LaKeria Taylor via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> What was law school like compared to getting your Ph.D? >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have found joint law degree programs with my interests, but >>>>> things are getting complicated when those law schools are limited. >>>>> Let me also add that I am looking for internships in a variety of >>>>> things because I don't want to just jump into something, hence why I >>>>> am asking here since many of you have your master's/Ph.d. and chose >>>>> law school at some point in your lives. I also understand that more >>>>> experience looks good along with grades, personal essay, and that sort >>>>> of thing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 1/7/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Informational interviews with people in a field of interest would be a >>>>>> good start. In my experience, most people are honest, unless you want >>>>>> something (e.g. a job) from them. Then assume that, by default, it will >>>>>> be between somewhat and significantly harder for you as a blind person >>>>>> to find a job than it was for whomever you are interviewing. You still >>>>>> will, if you're at or near the top of your field. But otherwise... let's >>>>>> just say it would help to have connections in the right places. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 1/7/2019 10:18 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> But lacking experience, how does one set a firm course? Unfortunately our >>>>>>> public school system is not well-designed enough to set people up with an >>>>>>> understanding of their options and what the true experience of a given >>>>>>> path will be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You need to figure out what it is you want to do and then design your >>>>>>>> post-undergraduate training around that. Getting a random degree because >>>>>>>> you think you might be interested in something is not likely to be worth >>>>>>>> the blood, sweat, tears, discrimination, and debt you will face. I >>>>>>>> actually did a joint master's in public policy and JD, which did reduce >>>>>>>> the cost by one year (i.e. what you are suggesting would be 5 years of >>>>>>>> school, but if you do a joint program, you can do it in four). But I >>>>>>>> would not recommend that unless you had a relatively clear plan of how >>>>>>>> you could parlay those degrees into a long-term career. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>>>> Troutman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4A66A.3F430CD0] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> t: 336.271.3138 >>>>>>>> f: 336.232.9138 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza >>>>>>>> 230 North Elm Street >>>>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27401 >>>>>>>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The information contained in this e-mail transmittal is privileged and >>>>>>>> confidential intended for the addressee only. If you are neither the >>>>>>>> intended recipient nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering >>>>>>>> this e-mail to the intended recipient, any disclosure of this information >>>>>>>> in any way or taking of any action in reliance on this information is >>>>>>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>>>>>>> notify the person transmitting the information immediately. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware by Mimecast Ltd. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Jan 9 16:32:10 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:32:10 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] CLS Fellow PositionColumbia Legal Services, Washington Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 5:01 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] CLS Fellow Position Attached to this message, please find a copy of the position announcement for Legal Fellow, a position now available with the Working Families Project of Columbia Legal Services. Position is open until filled. Please note that due to the volume of applications received, CLS is unable to respond to every application. CLS will contact you if we decide to pursue your application. If e-mailed, please make Legal Fellow your subject line. If you are interested in this position, send a cover letter, resume, a legal writing sample and the completed Equity Statement to jobs at columbialegal.org or to: Trisa Kern, Director of Program Administration Columbia Legal Services 101 Yesler Way Suite 300 Seattle, Washington, 98104 jobs at columbialegal.org Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Legal Fellow - WFP Announcement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 511570 bytes Desc: Legal Fellow - WFP Announcement.pdf URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Jan 9 16:35:30 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:35:30 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Autobiography: This lawyer's blindness led him to a tech-focused law practice, ABA Journal, January 2019 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/mypathtolaw_ed_marquette_kutak_rock/ This lawyer's blindness led him to a tech-focused law practice ABA Journal January 2019 By Ed Marquette If I'm honest, I backed into the law more than anything else. In this I suspect I am not alone, though I think few would admit it. My journey started on a farm in northeast Missouri. Very early, I knew that farming was not in my future, having developed an allergy to dirt, grease and sweat. My father wanted me to be a doctor. That, of course, ensured that I would become anything but a doctor. At a small, rural high school, one gets to do everything: baseball, football, track, golf, band, basketball, 4-H, student council, honor society, Young Engineers and Scientists, and even Future Farmers of America. Probably because it was strange and unusual for a farm boy to have a passion for nuclear physics, that is exactly what I had. Although I do not remember now, in high school I could have told you the oscillation properties of a muon neutrino. All of that, however, slammed to a sudden halt when an accidental blast from a fellow quail hunter's gun knocked me flat. The spray from the shotgun's muzzle sent lead pellets through my eyes, rendering me blind. This all happened during the turmoil of the Vietnam conflict. While recuperating from the accident, I became caught up in the winds of change and the politics of the era. I started making campaign speeches on behalf of then-Missouri Attorney General Thomas Eagleton, a charismatic dovish Democrat, at ice cream socials, county fairs and public gatherings of all kinds. The adrenaline rush one gets from campaigning generally-and specifically from engaging in public debate-is hard to explain, and it is addictive. It seemed that politics was definitely in my future. "What happened to nuclear physics?" you might ask. Braille, it turns out, is not well-suited to complex mathematics. The Braille symbol for the letter "a" is also used for the number "1"; the symbol for "b" matches the "2" symbol; and the same is true for the other integers. It takes additional symbols to differentiate between letters and numbers. Imagine even a relatively simple algebraic expression written in Braille. A career in physics, therefore, was doomed. Politics became my passion. I was elected the president of the Young Democrats and chaired a statewide youth committee for the Democratic Party. I was active in the movement to lower the voting age to 18. The default profession, it seemed, for all politicians was the same: the law. Therefore, I applied to an array of law schools and in that way backed into the law. It is impossible now to re-create the electric atmosphere of 1973, the year I started at Harvard. The Senate Watergate Committee hearings were being televised daily. The vice president of the United States, Spiro Agnew, resigned, making nolo contendere a highly relevant topic of discussion in our criminal law class. After the Saturday Night Massacre, Elliot Richardson spoke on campus about why he resigned rather than fire special prosecutor Archibald Cox at the behest of the embattled President Richard Nixon. Then, of course, the president of the United States resigned, and his handpicked successor pardoned him. Perhaps it was overload. Whatever it was, I was burned out on politics. But ironically, I had not burned out on the law. Looking back, I was extremely fortunate but too oblivious to realize it. When interviewing for associate positions, I was usually asked, "How can you practice law being blind?" I think most who asked that question didn't have a clue. At the time, however, I thought they were just asking for my strategy. One interviewer, however, did not ask. So, I asked him why he didn't ask. He said, "If you can make the kind of grades that you have made at the Harvard Law School, then you can figure out how to practice law in our law firm." I accepted the job offer from that firm, and that is how I ended up in Kansas City. Just as I backed into the law through pursuit of politics, I backed into intellectual property and technology through my blindness. Using voice synthesis, I taught myself computer programming, and I even wrote a couple of commercially distributed educational computer programs. Then, the early, primitive screen-reading programs required a deep knowledge of computer technology. That immersion in technology positioned me well for the technology explosion that came with the microprocessor and all that followed. My practice now is involved heavily in technology and related intellectual property rights. It was not until well after my own practice began to flourish that I realized how astoundingly lucky I was. The unemployment rate for blind people generally is about 70 percent. Many blind and physically handicapped people who are pumped through law school struggle to find any kind of law-related job. What a terrible tragedy-not just for the lawyers with disabilities but also for the organizations that miss out on the creativity, inventiveness, and out-of-the box thinking that almost inevitably comes with people with disabilities. When an individual has to devise alternative solutions to accomplish even the most mundane tasks, that person is, of necessity, adept at finding alternative solutions-solutions that often escape others. That is the message the disabled community needs to broadcast, and seeing that it happens is the main reason I am so involved in issues of diversity and inclusiveness, even though they do not directly relate to my legal practice. From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 01:35:51 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 20:35:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Message-ID: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased it for me even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it long, but to be honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is getting. It has some pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the biggest being that any document over about 500 kb opens incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support about this, and I am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also really don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want that, why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display at less than half the price? Sent from my iPhone From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 05:54:50 2019 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 00:54:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> References: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <106901d4a8a9$009aa060$01cfe120$@gmail.com> I bought one a couple years ago and want to get rid of itt. I don't like it much either. It constantly freezes and is too heavy and complicated. I didn't use the glass tablet at all. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:36 PM To: blind-tlk at nfbnet.org Cc: kelby carlson Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased it for me even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it long, but to be honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is getting. It has some pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the biggest being that any document over about 500 kb opens incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support about this, and I am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also really don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want that, why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display at less than half the price? Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om From aliherky at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 14:06:45 2019 From: aliherky at gmail.com (Ali) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:06:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Message-ID: <5c37518f.1c69fb81.b5d2e.6b9f@mx.google.com> I had it for a while, and I could not wait to be rid of that thing! Ali ----- Original Message ----- From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw References: <5c37518f.1c69fb81.b5d2e.6b9f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I actually feel bad for the county and would like to see if there is a way to get it returned, I'm upset that they wasted the money. The thing is, the reviews made the device sound at least decent. On 1/10/19, Ali via BlindLaw wrote: > I had it for a while, and I could not wait to be rid of that > thing! > > Ali > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw To: blind-tlk at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 20:35:51 -0500 > Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased > it for me even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it > long, but to be honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is > getting. It has some pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the > biggest being that any document over about 500 kb opens > incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support about this, and I > am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also really > don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want > that, why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display > at less than half the price? > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aliherky%40 > gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > -- Kelby Carlson From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jan 10 14:33:42 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 07:33:42 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5c37518f.1c69fb81.b5d2e.6b9f@mx.google.com> References: <5c37518f.1c69fb81.b5d2e.6b9f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <037201d4a8f1$7cb294d0$7617be70$@labarrelaw.com> Hello everyone, I was recently in the market for a new device, and everything that I am hearing is consistent with what has been posted. After I did my own research, I settled upon the Braille Sense Polarisand thus far, I like it very much. Best, Scott -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ali via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 7:07 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Ali Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts I had it for a while, and I could not wait to be rid of that thing! Ali ----- Original Message ----- From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw References: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> <106901d4a8a9$009aa060$01cfe120$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I have one and use it in very specific situations. What I really like about it is the ability to type very quietly, without the typical keyboard clatter. I use it when I am taking notes at conferences, CLEs, etc. I ended up with this device because my first choice was not going to be available. I wanted something with onboard notetaking capabilities because, while I use braille displays and iOS devices every day, Apple has been known to "break" braille support before. So the Touch fit the bill for something that was quiet and functioned as a stand-alone notetaker. I don't use any of the other apps on the unit, though. I agree that, over all, a tablet or phone with a braille display provides more functionality. Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Deepa Goraya via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 12:55 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Deepa Goraya Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts I bought one a couple years ago and want to get rid of itt. I don't like it much either. It constantly freezes and is too heavy and complicated. I didn't use the glass tablet at all. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:36 PM To: blind-tlk at nfbnet.org Cc: kelby carlson Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased it for me even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it long, but to be honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is getting. It has some pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the biggest being that any document over about 500 kb opens incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support about this, and I am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also really don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want that, why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display at less than half the price? Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 14:42:55 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (Kelby Carlson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:42:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> <106901d4a8a9$009aa060$01cfe120$@gmail.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I have my own personal Apex, but the county insisted that I use exclusively county-provided equipment for work, and HumanWare no longer sells the Apex. I unfortunately did not do much independent research before the county bought it, and the reviews I did read did not indicate it was this bad. On 1/10/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > I have one and use it in very specific situations. What I really like about > it is the ability to type very quietly, without the typical keyboard > clatter. I use it when I am taking notes at conferences, CLEs, etc. I ended > up with this device because my first choice was not going to be available. I > wanted something with onboard notetaking capabilities because, while I use > braille displays and iOS devices every day, Apple has been known to "break" > braille support before. So the Touch fit the bill for something that was > quiet and functioned as a stand-alone notetaker. I don't use any of the > other apps on the unit, though. I agree that, over all, a tablet or phone > with a braille display provides more functionality. > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Deepa Goraya via > BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 12:55 AM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Deepa Goraya > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > > > I bought one a couple years ago and want to get rid of itt. I don't like > it > much either. It constantly freezes and is too heavy and complicated. I > didn't use the glass tablet at all. > > Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby > carlson via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:36 PM > To: blind-tlk at nfbnet.org > Cc: kelby carlson > Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased it for me > even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it long, but to be > honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is getting. It has some > pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the biggest being that any document > over about 500 kb opens incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support > about > this, and I am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also > really don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want that, > why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display at less than > half > the price? > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files > or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential > information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to > this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this > transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy > the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in > any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > -- Kelby Carlson From jmccarthy at mdtap.org Thu Jan 10 15:32:59 2019 From: jmccarthy at mdtap.org (Jim McCarthy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 10:32:59 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> <106901d4a8a9$009aa060$01cfe120$@gmail.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <028f01d4a8f9$c4edaa20$4ec8fe60$@mdtap.org> When the touch was first introduced to us, it became my opinion that it would not be practical unless a user could use the tablet and leave the keyboard/bulky case behind! At that time, the braille writing feature would fail from time to time making leaving the case at home a real risk in work/school environments. It does seem that the braille ability has become more reliable but I know several people who, like Deepa, carry the entire unit. It appears Angie uses the tablet for some typing. For me a touch screen interface is not the most intuitive for blind users. It is not that they lack access as I believe Voiceover (the touch screen solution with which I am by far most familiar) is brilliantly executed. I think we have so thoroughly moved to touch screen devices, not because of their comfort or usability for our community, but because of the access to apps that we do not receive through devices that use buttons instead of screens. Most blind people I know use a keyboard, either a braille display or qwerty, when doing extensive writing/keyboard work with in a touch screen environment. The Hims Polaris appears to meet that desire better. Humanware seems to have lots of support in the k-12 educational space, or at least the unit we have here at our AT Act program is out most of the time borrowed by schools around Maryland. For me a Bluetooth display paired to a tablet is the best solution, but that pairing does not hold as well as I would wish in many situations. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:35 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Angela Matney Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts I have one and use it in very specific situations. What I really like about it is the ability to type very quietly, without the typical keyboard clatter. I use it when I am taking notes at conferences, CLEs, etc. I ended up with this device because my first choice was not going to be available. I wanted something with onboard notetaking capabilities because, while I use braille displays and iOS devices every day, Apple has been known to "break" braille support before. So the Touch fit the bill for something that was quiet and functioned as a stand-alone notetaker. I don't use any of the other apps on the unit, though. I agree that, over all, a tablet or phone with a braille display provides more functionality. Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Deepa Goraya via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 12:55 AM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Deepa Goraya Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts I bought one a couple years ago and want to get rid of itt. I don't like it much either. It constantly freezes and is too heavy and complicated. I didn't use the glass tablet at all. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:36 PM To: blind-tlk at nfbnet.org Cc: kelby carlson Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Does anyone here use the BrailleNote Touch? My employer purchased it for me even though it was not my top choice. I have not had it long, but to be honest I do not understand the rave reviews it is getting. It has some pretty obvious design flaws, perhaps the biggest being that any document over about 500 kb opens incredibly slowly. (I did contact tech support about this, and I am not the only one to have reported this problem.) I also really don't understand the appeal of a "braille tablet"--if you want that, why not just get an an actual tablet and a braille display at less than half the price? Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/deepa.goraya%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org From derekjdittmar at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 16:59:49 2019 From: derekjdittmar at gmail.com (Derek Dittmar) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:59:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Clerking Message-ID: Good morning, I am currently in the application/interview process for clerking after law school and would appreciate any feedback or personal experiences. Particularly, has anyone had experience with the visual components of drafting opinions (caption, formatting, etc.), book checking citations, or any other aspects of the appellate clerkship that could require accommodation? Our state’s appellate courts are characteristically crowded, and clerks are commonly drafting multiple opinions per month. As I enter interviews, I'd like to have suggestions for how to solve the most common, and immediate, problems. Thank you, and I hope everyone is enjoying a strong start to 2019. Derek J Dittmar From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 17:39:25 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:39:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Clerking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50186F08-17F3-48A9-A92F-5D6C0D7912F6@gmail.com> Are you on a journal? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Derek Dittmar via BlindLaw wrote: > > Good morning, > I am currently in the application/interview process for clerking after > law school and would appreciate any feedback or personal experiences. > Particularly, has anyone had experience with the visual components of > drafting opinions (caption, formatting, etc.), book checking > citations, or any other aspects of the appellate clerkship that could > require accommodation? Our state’s appellate courts are > characteristically crowded, and clerks are commonly drafting multiple > opinions per month. As I enter interviews, I'd like to have > suggestions for how to solve the most common, and immediate, problems. > Thank you, and I hope everyone is enjoying a strong start to 2019. > Derek J Dittmar > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com From chris.stewart at uky.edu Fri Jan 11 15:15:41 2019 From: chris.stewart at uky.edu (Stewart, Christopher K) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:15:41 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Clerking Message-ID: I'm a federal district court clerk, but I have lots of experience with case captions and drafting opinions. Of all the potential accomodations issues, case captions aren't anything to worry about. You just get the formatting down and go with it. For instance, I know all of our case captions are single-spaced, bolded, all caps, Etc. I have a quasi-template that I created so it's super easy. I'd be happy to talk on or off list about what I view as bigger challenges in clerking. Clerkships are wonderful options for qualified blind folks, and I'm much richer for my experience. Best, Chris From davant1958 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 15:32:20 2019 From: davant1958 at gmail.com (Denise R Avant) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:32:20 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Fwd: ABA Cares 2019 - Free CLE for Government Shutdown References: <49098-4226595.14462.1547163066240@CHG-MAESTRO-01> Message-ID: <8FF55541-A3F8-42ED-9B95-F11BA56CBBCC@gmail.com> Denise R. Avant President National Federation of the Blind of Illinois Live the life you want Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: ABACLE Announcement > Date: January 10, 2019 at 5:30:00 PM CST > To: Denise R Avant > Subject: ABA Cares 2019 - Free CLE for Government Shutdown > Reply-To: reply at americanbar.org > > > > Free CLE programming‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ > Trouble Viewing? View online. > > > > > > > Are you an attorney affected by the government shutdown? > > > The American Bar Association announced today that it is offering five Continuing Legal Education programs (CLE)* free of charge to all lawyers and other professionals affected by the shutdown of the federal government. > > "The ABA, as the largest representative of the legal profession, looked at how we could quickly mobilize to help lawyers affected by the government shutdown," ABA Executive Director Jack Rives said. "We are offering a range of free CLE courses to those attorneys, including those who are not currently ABA members. This is a way to help lawyers during this difficult time who do so much for the country." > > The CLE programs focus on a wide range of legal issues, such as ethics, disaster response, and cybersecurity and will be available for free through February 2019. To learn more about this ABA Cares initiative, including information on accessing these programs, click the link below. > > > ABA Cares 2019 > > > Connect with us. > > > > > > > > *Courses provided by the ABA Section of Taxation, Center For Professional Responsibility, Health Law Section, Forum on Communications Law Government and Public Sector Lawyers Division , Law Practice Division , Section of Administrative Law and Regulatory Practice , Section of Public Contract Law, Section of State and Local Government Law, Solo, Small Firm and General Practice Division, Section of Science & Technology Law Criminal Justice Section, Young Lawyers Division, and ABACLE. > > > Update profile > E-mail preferences > Unsubscribe > Privacy Policy > Contact Us > > > > This message was sent to davant1958 at gmail.com. > Your e-mail address will only be used within the ABA. > We do not sell or rent e-mail addresses. > > American Bar Association > 321 N Clark, Chicago, IL 60654-7598 > 800-285-2221 | 312-988-5522 > > MORE ABA RESOURCES > AMBAR.ORG > CAREER CENTER > MEMBERSHIP > CALENDAR > CLE > PUBLISHING > > From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 15:59:50 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (Kelby Carlson) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 10:59:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Clerking Message-ID: <5c38bd78.1c69fb81.40eda.a8ea@mx.google.com> I would love to chat with you about this, even though I'm not clerking. There was a recent thread on captions, and if you have a way of doing them efficiently I'd love to hear about it; in particular, getting everything alligned correctly, such as the names and docket numbers, is the most challenging. On Jan 11, 2019 10:15 AM, "Stewart, Christopher K via BlindLaw" wrote: > > I'm a federal district court clerk, but I have lots of experience with > case captions and drafting opinions. Of all the potential > accomodations issues, case captions aren't anything to worry about. > You just get the formatting down and go with it. For instance, I know > all of our case captions are single-spaced, bolded, all caps, Etc. I > have a quasi-template that I created so it's super easy. > > I'd be happy to talk on or off list about what I view as bigger > challenges in clerking. Clerkships are wonderful options for qualified > blind folks, and I'm much richer for my experience. > > Best, > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 17:54:01 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:54:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Consulting Message-ID: Hi all, If anyone has experience with bringing a third-party accessibility consultant into a workplace for internal training, please let me know off-list. Thanks, Laura From laura.wolk at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 18:10:43 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:10:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Consulting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not just interested in blindness-related accessibility. Accessibility in general. Also, color me skeptical about the quality of service they would provide anyway. *smile* But thanks for the info! On 1/11/19, Daniel K. Beitz wrote: > I think Freedom scientific/jaws does this. That is a new facit of their > business I've heard. > > > > Daniel K. Beitz > EVANS LAW GROUP, P.C. > Please note our new address: > 950 W. University Dr., Ste. 200 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Direct: (248) 564-1412 > dbeitz at evanslawgrp.com > www.evanslawgrp.com > > The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is > privileged and/or confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) > listed above.  Any review, use, disclosure, distribution, copying, or > storing of this transmittal is prohibited except by or on behalf of any of > the intended recipients.  If you have received this transmittal in error, > please notify me immediately by reply email and immediately destroy all > copies of this transmittal.  Thank you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:54 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Consulting > > Hi all, > > If anyone has experience with bringing a third-party accessibility > consultant into a workplace for internal training, please let me know > off-list. > > Thanks, > > Laura > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergould.com > > > From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Fri Jan 11 18:13:34 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:13:34 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <1F3C77EF-9176-40C6-A4A6-E206DED5EB89@gmail.com> <106901d4a8a9$009aa060$01cfe120$@gmail.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EAD17@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <01b601d4a9d9$5e163ca0$1a42b5e0$@com> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris into obsolescence fast and quick. Blitab will run Android as its OS! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 18:21:04 2019 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:21:04 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Message-ID: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. Roanna Bacchus On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it will most > definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris into > obsolescence fast and quick.  > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From ttomasi at driowa.org Fri Jan 11 18:36:45 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:36:45 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultraportable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw Cc: Roanna Bacchus Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. Roanna Bacchus On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > into obsolescence fast and quick. > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From NSingh at cov.com Fri Jan 11 18:44:54 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:44:54 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Clerking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e2d45b2f90433e9805f724a02e95d6@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> I clerked on the First Circuit Court of Appeals. I had an old school judge who received our first drafts on paper, allowing him to revise extensively. Judge's secretary then retyped the new draft, revisions and all. At that point, she was the only one who had an electronic copy of the draft opinion. She would not allow us to even touch her computer, so she had complete version control! As a result, she handled the formatting of case captions. I think the template idea is a good one, and I use something similar at my firm. I also agree that case captions are pretty minor in terms of accommodation issues. I am happy to talk more offline about other ideas. And finally, I echo Stewart's thoughts on how benificial a clerkship is, especially if you plan to be a litigator later. Regards, Nikki -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stewart, Christopher K via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 10:16 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Stewart, Christopher K Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Clerking I'm a federal district court clerk, but I have lots of experience with case captions and drafting opinions. Of all the potential accomodations issues, case captions aren't anything to worry about. You just get the formatting down and go with it. For instance, I know all of our case captions are single-spaced, bolded, all caps, Etc. I have a quasi-template that I created so it's super easy. I'd be happy to talk on or off list about what I view as bigger challenges in clerking. Clerkships are wonderful options for qualified blind folks, and I'm much richer for my experience. Best, Chris _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 18:48:32 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:48:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8a02fc74-62ef-4f74-a8ff-6b22159c9fa1@yahoo.com> I agree. I have an ElBraille, supposedly a fully functional Windows machine but with a Braille rather than a qwerty keyboard. Thankfully, the Braille display can be powered on without booting up the entire machine. I have found that pairing it with my iPhone makes far more sense than trying to memorize the 10,000 new Jaws commands that I would have to learn to use it effectively as a full-blown Windows machine. On 1/11/2019 1:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultraportable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM > To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw > Cc: Roanna Bacchus > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. > > Roanna Bacchus > > On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: >> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it >> will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris >> into obsolescence fast and quick. >> >> Blitab will run Android as its OS! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm >> ail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Fri Jan 11 19:06:57 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:06:57 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <02d301d4a9e0$d353cd00$79fb6700$@com> Roanna wrote in part: "I don't think that this product will become obselete." Hmm, the BrailleNote Touch runs off of a deprecated Android OS, KitKat 4.4 and can't even be upgraded to Lollipop to take advantage of additional functionalities the OS has to offer. Conversely, the Polaris runs on Lollipop and can't be updated or upgraded either. Both will claim to send through security patches to guard against any vulnerabilities; really? Androideans now eat Pie, neither notetaker will ever send through a security patch meant for the Pie. The BrailleNote Touch was already obsolete before leaving the factory floor. But, of course, we're talking about Braille notetakers; in that respect, I share the views expressed by Ms. Tomasi and others! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From jmccarthy at mdtap.org Fri Jan 11 19:44:42 2019 From: jmccarthy at mdtap.org (Jim McCarthy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:44:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> Count me as agreeing with Tai. Jim -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Tai Tomasi Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultraportable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw Cc: Roanna Bacchus Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. Roanna Bacchus On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > into obsolescence fast and quick. > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org From amatney at loeb.com Fri Jan 11 19:59:14 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:59:14 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EC3A7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com  -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Jim McCarthy Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. Count me as agreeing with Tai. Jim -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Tai Tomasi Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw Cc: Roanna Bacchus Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. Roanna Bacchus On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > into obsolescence fast and quick. > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From ttomasi at driowa.org Fri Jan 11 20:13:49 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:13:49 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EC3A7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EC3A7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Manufacturers need to carefully consider the sound their Braille keyboards make when designing these devices. A display with a keyboard allowing for quiet entry would sell very well. All displays and notetakers that I have owned--and that is many--do not allow for quiet typing. In my experience, the VarioUltra was the quietest, but they no longer manufacture that display , and it is still somewhat noisy . Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:59 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Angela Matney Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Admitted only in Virginia 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com  -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Jim McCarthy Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. Count me as agreeing with Tai. Jim -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Tai Tomasi Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw Cc: Roanna Bacchus Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. Roanna Bacchus On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > into obsolescence fast and quick. > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From angie.matney at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 21:21:11 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 16:21:11 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EC3A7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <0612A1F4-0F69-49B2-91E4-43E5CB892411@gmail.com> I think the Brailliant keyboard is just as quiet, if not more so. If you don't need a "smart" dissplay, the Brailliant is a decen! option. But it's a bit long in the tooth, so one wonders when Humanware will refresh that line. Angie Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 11, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > > Manufacturers need to carefully consider the sound their Braille keyboards make when designing these devices. A display with a keyboard allowing for quiet entry would sell very well. All displays and notetakers that I have owned--and that is many--do not allow for quiet typing. In my experience, the VarioUltra was the quietest, but they no longer manufacture that display , and it is still somewhat noisy . > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:59 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Angela Matney > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > Admitted only in Virginia > > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Jim McCarthy > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > > Count me as agreeing with Tai. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Tai Tomasi > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra > portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM > To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw > Cc: Roanna Bacchus > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. > > Roanna Bacchus > >> On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: >> >> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it >> will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris >> into obsolescence fast and quick. >> >> Blitab will run Android as its OS! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm >> ail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:10:43 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:10:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <0612A1F4-0F69-49B2-91E4-43E5CB892411@gmail.com> References: <5c38dead.1c69fb81.e4f0e.2ce6@mx.google.com> <039c01d4a9e6$18ddfa80$4a99ef80$@mdtap.org> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539243EC3A7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <0612A1F4-0F69-49B2-91E4-43E5CB892411@gmail.com> Message-ID: Humanware used to have excellent customer service, but no longer. When I called and pointed out some very basic problems, like the inability to easily load text documents over 200 kb, the response I got was basically "yes, we no that's a problem, sorry". Obviously this is totally unacceptable. I find that an iPhone,, a laptop, and a display meets my needs quite successfully. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:21 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > I think the Brailliant keyboard is just as quiet, if not more so. If you don't need a "smart" dissplay, the Brailliant is a decen! option. But it's a bit long in the tooth, so one wonders when Humanware will refresh that line. > > Angie > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Manufacturers need to carefully consider the sound their Braille keyboards make when designing these devices. A display with a keyboard allowing for quiet entry would sell very well. All displays and notetakers that I have owned--and that is many--do not allow for quiet typing. In my experience, the VarioUltra was the quietest, but they no longer manufacture that display , and it is still somewhat noisy . >> >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >> Pronouns: she/her/hers >> Staff Attorney >> >> >> >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >> www.driowa.org >> >> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >> >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:59 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Angela Matney >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >> >> I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> Admitted only in Virginia >> >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: Jim McCarthy >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >> >> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >> >> Count me as agreeing with Tai. >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: Tai Tomasi >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >> >> With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra >> portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. >> >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >> Pronouns: she/her/hers >> Staff Attorney >> >> >> >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >> www.driowa.org >> >> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >> >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM >> To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw >> Cc: Roanna Bacchus >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >> >> Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. >> >> Roanna Bacchus >> >>> On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: >>> >>> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it >>> will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris >>> into obsolescence fast and quick. >>> >>> Blitab will run Android as its OS! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Olusegun >>> Denver, Colorado >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm >>> ail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 18:45:53 2019 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:45:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Message-ID: <5c392fe0.1c69fb81.389c6.90b4@mx.google.com> Hi Tai thanks for your message. I disagree with your opinion. Humanware, the developer of the BrailleNote Touch is constantly working to improve this product. I have found that many third-party apps work well on the BrailleNote Touch.  On Jan 11, 2019 1:36 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > > With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world.  All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they  have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface  Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultraportable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion.   > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM > To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw > Cc: Roanna Bacchus > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > > Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. > > Roanna Bacchus > > On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > > > > If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > > will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > > into obsolescence fast and quick. > > > > Blitab will run Android as its OS! > > > > Sincerely, > > Olusegun > > Denver, Colorado > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > > ail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 00:07:28 2019 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:07:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts Message-ID: <5c392feb.1c69fb81.474a0.8cd7@mx.google.com> I have contacted Humanware about problems with my old BrailleNote Apex and their Support staff was fabulous. On Jan 11, 2019 5:10 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > Humanware used to have excellent customer service, but no longer. When I called and pointed out some very basic problems, like the inability to easily load text documents over 200 kb, the response I got was basically "yes, we no that's a problem, sorry". Obviously this is totally unacceptable. > > I find that an iPhone,, a laptop, and a display meets my needs quite successfully. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:21 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > > > I think the Brailliant keyboard is just as quiet, if not more so. If you don't need a "smart" dissplay, the Brailliant is a decen! option. But it's a bit long in the tooth, so one wonders when Humanware will refresh that line. > > > > Angie > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > >> > >> Manufacturers need to carefully consider the sound their Braille keyboards make when designing these devices. A display with a  keyboard allowing for quiet entry would sell very well. All displays and notetakers that I have owned--and that is many--do not allow for quiet typing. In my experience, the VarioUltra was the quietest, but they no longer manufacture that display , and it is still somewhat noisy .     > >> > >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > >> Pronouns: she/her/hers > >> Staff Attorney > >> > >> > >> > >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > >> www.driowa.org > >> > >> Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > >> > >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > >> > >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:59 PM > >> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >> Cc: Angela Matney > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > >> > >> I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. > >> > >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US > >> Attorney at Law > >> Admitted only in Virginia > >> > >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM > >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> Cc: Jim McCarthy > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > >> > >> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. > >> > >> Count me as agreeing with Tai. > >> Jim > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM > >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> Cc: Tai Tomasi > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > >> > >> With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world.  All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they  have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface  Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra > >> portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion.   > >> > >> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > >> Pronouns: she/her/hers > >> Staff Attorney > >> > >> > >> > >> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > >> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > >> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > >> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > >> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > >> www.driowa.org > >> > >> Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > >> > >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > >> > >> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM > >> To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw > >> Cc: Roanna Bacchus > >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts > >> > >> Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. > >> > >> Roanna Bacchus > >> > >>> On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: > >>> > >>> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it > >>> will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris > >>> into obsolescence fast and quick. > >>> > >>> Blitab will run Android as its OS! > >>> > >>> Sincerely, > >>> Olusegun > >>> Denver, Colorado > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm > >>> ail.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 12:53:02 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 07:53:02 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5c392feb.1c69fb81.474a0.8cd7@mx.google.com> References: <5c392feb.1c69fb81.474a0.8cd7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <88BDE3F8-79D5-4E62-BD2E-8AC1447A4D18@gmail.com> Oh, another thing the Touch can't do? Read BRF files with textto-speech. This has been a basic feature of notetakers for decades. This would mean that, if I was using this for personal stuff (thank God I'm not) I would have to re-download my entire Bookshare library as DAISY files (which take up far more space) if I wanted to use TTS to read them out loud. It's not as if *only* notetaker manufacturers do this, but the fact that this number of basic features was actually *removed* is just baffling to me. Again, I will mostly be able to use it for what I need at work, but if I had been provided this in law school I would have been incredibly angry. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 11, 2019, at 7:07 PM, Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw wrote: > > I have contacted Humanware about problems with my old BrailleNote Apex and their Support staff was fabulous. > >> On Jan 11, 2019 5:10 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Humanware used to have excellent customer service, but no longer. When I called and pointed out some very basic problems, like the inability to easily load text documents over 200 kb, the response I got was basically "yes, we no that's a problem, sorry". Obviously this is totally unacceptable. >> >> I find that an iPhone,, a laptop, and a display meets my needs quite successfully. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:21 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> I think the Brailliant keyboard is just as quiet, if not more so. If you don't need a "smart" dissplay, the Brailliant is a decen! option. But it's a bit long in the tooth, so one wonders when Humanware will refresh that line. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jan 11, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> Manufacturers need to carefully consider the sound their Braille keyboards make when designing these devices. A display with a keyboard allowing for quiet entry would sell very well. All displays and notetakers that I have owned--and that is many--do not allow for quiet typing. In my experience, the VarioUltra was the quietest, but they no longer manufacture that display , and it is still somewhat noisy . >>>> >>>> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >>>> Pronouns: she/her/hers >>>> Staff Attorney >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >>>> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >>>> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >>>> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >>>> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >>>> www.driowa.org >>>> >>>> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities >>>> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >>>> >>>> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:59 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Angela Matney >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >>>> >>>> I actually agree with this, too, despite my earlier comments. I have found the Braille Note useful as a silent way to type and read braille when I'm away from my desk. If there were a display on the market (or if there had been when I needed something, and if I'd known about it) that would do this as well, I would have opted for that rather than the Touch. I do not use the other onboard apps of the Touch. >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> Admitted only in Virginia >>>> >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:45 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >>>> >>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network. >>>> >>>> Count me as agreeing with Tai. >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:37 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: Tai Tomasi >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >>>> >>>> With all due respect, the BrailleNote Touch is already obsolete in today's highly technological world. All Braille notetakers are behind the times and lack the capabilities of most modern tablets available to the general public. Generally, they have less storage and fewer functions than tablets released even five years ago! The ability to run operating systems like Android is a nice touch, but unless that functionality is perfectly integrated, it doesn't work well and apps either never work with the units or begin crashing. If I were recommending technology to today's up and coming law students and attorneys, I would not recommend a notetaker specifically designed for the blind, but rather a good Braille display and tablet of some sort, in addition to a good laptop. For advanced users, an iPad or Surface Pro can nearly replace use of a laptop, though I myself still prefer a laptop for many tasks. I use a 40-cell Braille display, iPad, iPhone, desktop computer, and an ultra >>>> portable laptop running JAWS. Purchasing all of these items would cost as much, or less, than a Braille notetaker and provide more flexibility and functionality. Just my opinion. >>>> >>>> Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. >>>> Pronouns: she/her/hers >>>> Staff Attorney >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 >>>> Des Moines, Iowa 50309 >>>> Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 >>>> FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 >>>> E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org >>>> www.driowa.org >>>> >>>> Our Mission: To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities >>>> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE >>>> >>>> This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:21 PM >>>> To: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw >>>> Cc: Roanna Bacchus >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts >>>> >>>> Hi Olesgun thanks for your message. Humanware is constantly developing the BrailleNote Touch with new features and other improvements. They have excellent and very satisfactory customer service. I am a BrailleNote Touch user. I don't think that this product will become obselete. >>>> >>>> Roanna Bacchus >>>> >>>>> On Jan 11, 2019 1:13 PM, "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If Blitab ever comes out of darkness and sees the light of day, it >>>>> will most definitely knock both the BrailleNote Touch and HIMS Polaris >>>>> into obsolescence fast and quick. >>>>> >>>>> Blitab will run Android as its OS! >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Olusegun >>>>> Denver, Colorado >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40mdtap.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Jan 12 13:24:11 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 06:24:11 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <88BDE3F8-79D5-4E62-BD2E-8AC1447A4D18@gmail.com> References: <5c392feb.1c69fb81.474a0.8cd7@mx.google.com> <88BDE3F8-79D5-4E62-BD2E-8AC1447A4D18@gmail.com> Message-ID: <040c01d4aa7a$1affc9d0$50ff5d70$@com> Kelby, the sort of issues you're stuck with is one reason why I do get angry with so-called accessibility gurus. Your employer would have done well by seeking your input prior to purchasing the BrailleNote Touch. I hope they're not forcing you to stay stuck with it! I sure don't know when blind folks lost the right to choose for themselves adaptive equipment or technology that's best suited for them to get work done. As one who does better with Braille, I have a BrailleSensePlus that's slowly dying on me. I'm in the market for a new notetaker before the one I have gives up the ghost. However, taking a cursory look at what's currently available, I can't convince myself to write a check to pay for one! I'm impatiently waiting for Blitab; I've been doing so for nearly two years or so. I just hope I don't run out of luck waiting! Anyway, back to the drawing board I go. I'll be in my hibernation cage and keep watching the landscape. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 13:47:09 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BrailleNote Touch Thoughts In-Reply-To: <040c01d4aa7a$1affc9d0$50ff5d70$@com> References: <5c392feb.1c69fb81.474a0.8cd7@mx.google.com> <88BDE3F8-79D5-4E62-BD2E-8AC1447A4D18@gmail.com> <040c01d4aa7a$1affc9d0$50ff5d70$@com> Message-ID: <068E4868-2F18-4FD1-AC46-74DC9DDA4753@gmail.com> Olusegun, I had to fight with the county to get my accommodationss so much that I would rather just make use of what I have than try and get something else. Unfortunately, the reviews of the BN Touch that I found, while pointing out some of these problems, would probably not have gotten across just how bad the product is. I didn't realize the Apex was no longer being sold, and I foolishly assumed the Touch's interface would be similar, just with a touchscreen. I am, even though I have not had luck with County HR, still somewhat angry on their behalf as well because they did waste their money and I certainly did not intend that at all. If they had just let me use my Apex for work instead of using county equipment we wouldn't be in this situation. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 12, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw wrote: > > Kelby, the sort of issues you're stuck with is one reason why I do get angry > with so-called accessibility gurus. Your employer would have done well by > seeking your input prior to purchasing the BrailleNote Touch. I hope > they're not forcing you to stay stuck with it! I sure don't know when blind > folks lost the right to choose for themselves adaptive equipment or > technology that's best suited for them to get work done. > > As one who does better with Braille, I have a BrailleSensePlus that's slowly > dying on me. I'm in the market for a new notetaker before the one I have > gives up the ghost. However, taking a cursory look at what's currently > available, I can't convince myself to write a check to pay for one! I'm > impatiently waiting for Blitab; I've been doing so for nearly two years or > so. I just hope I don't run out of luck waiting! Anyway, back to the > drawing board I go. I'll be in my hibernation cage and keep watching the > landscape. > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From chriswright80 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 17:24:22 2019 From: chriswright80 at gmail.com (Christopher Wright) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:24:22 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] ProDoc and JAWS accessibility Message-ID: <008c01d4ac2d$fdf45120$f9dcf360$@gmail.com> Hello fellow JAWS users, I am a totally blind attorney who uses JAWS. I am starting my first attorney job in Midland Texas in the coming weeks And the firm uses ProDoc legal assembly software. I was wondering if any of you JAWS users have used this software and whether or not it is accessible. Additionally, if you have any tips or tricks for using the software as a blind person please let me know. Thanks for any assistance, Christopher Wright From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Jan 15 18:53:01 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:53:01 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [Jobs] FW: OCR Job Announcement: Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Jobs [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) via Jobs Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 10:07 AM To: 'Jobs at nfbnet.org' Cc: Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR); NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List Subject: [Jobs] FW: OCR Job Announcement: Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy Thought this might be of interest. /s/ Bennett Prows From: OCR HIPAA Privacy Rule information distribution On Behalf Of OS OCR PrivacyList, OCR (HHS/OS) Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 3:09 PM To: OCR-PRIVACY-LIST at LIST.NIH.GOV Subject: OCR Job Announcement: Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy [cid:image001.jpg at 01D15E72.2A58A430] OCR Job Announcement: Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy January 14, 2019 The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' Office for Civil Rights is currently seeking a Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy. The vacancy announcement has posted to USAJOBS. Please right click on the link below and select open hyperlink to view the SES announcement on USAJOBS website. Please feel free to share. https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/521576600 Title: Deputy Director for Health Information Privacy Grade: Senior Executive Opening date: 1/14/19 Closing date: 2/5/19 Location: Negotiable After Selection, United States Announcement Number: HHS-OCR-ES-19-10388206 OPEN TO ALL SOURCES IMPORTANT - When applying for a Federal Government job it is very important to follow the instructions carefully. It is more important to include all of the required information or documents on or with your application. To learn more about OCR, visit our website at www.hhs.gov/ocr. Follow us on Twitter @HHSOCR ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ This email is being sent to you from the OCR-Privacy-List listserv, operated by the Office for Civil Rights (OCR) in the US Department of Health and Human Services. This is an announce-only list, a resource to distribute information about the HIPAA Privacy and Security Rules. For additional information on a wide range of topics about the Privacy and Security Rules, please visit the OCR Privacy website at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html. You can also call the OCR Privacy toll-free phone line at (866) 627-7748. Information about OCR's civil rights authorities and responsibilities can be found on the OCR home page at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/office/index.html. If you believe that a person or organization covered by the Privacy and Security Rules (a "covered entity") violated your health information privacy rights or otherwise violated the Privacy or Security Rules, you may file a complaint with OCR. For additional information about how to file a complaint, visit OCR's web page on filing complaints at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/complaints/index.html. To subscribe to or unsubscribe from the list serv, go to https://list.nih.gov/cgi-bin/wa.exe?SUBED1=OCR-PRIVACY-LIST&A=1. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24531 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Jan 15 21:02:49 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:02:49 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Ninth Circuit ruling in website/mobile application title III case today Message-ID: Blindlaw listers, I have attached an opinion issued today by the Ninth Circuit relevant to the application of the ADA to mobile applications and websites. The short of it is, that the Ninth circuit ruled that the ADA does apply, even without specific technical standards being issued by DOJ. Noel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 17-55504.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 107041 bytes Desc: 17-55504.pdf URL: From ttomasi at driowa.org Tue Jan 15 21:10:18 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:10:18 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Ninth Circuit ruling in website/mobile application title III case today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is an excellent outcome! If only we could get rulings like this in the Eighth Circuit. Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. Pronouns: she/her/hers Staff Attorney 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 Des Moines, Iowa 50309 Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org www.driowa.org Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 3:03 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Nightingale, Noel Subject: [blindlaw] Ninth Circuit ruling in website/mobile application title III case today Blindlaw listers, I have attached an opinion issued today by the Ninth Circuit relevant to the application of the ADA to mobile applications and websites. The short of it is, that the Ninth circuit ruled that the ADA does apply, even without specific technical standards being issued by DOJ. Noel From ttomasi at driowa.org Tue Jan 15 22:18:11 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 22:18:11 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] American Diabetes Association Seeks Summer Law Clerks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good afternoon: The American Diabetes Association is seeking two individuals for paid, summer law clerk positions. Please see below for the announcement, and a PDF copy is also attached. LEGAL ADVOCACY SUMMER INTERN The mission of the American Diabetes Association is to prevent and cure diabetes and to improve the lives of all people affected by diabetes. To that end, our Legal Advocacy team is committed to ending discrimination against people with diabetes. We are seeking a full-time summer intern to join this critical effort. This is a paid position. Our Legal Advocacy attorneys provide free phone and email legal assistance to people facing diabetes discrimination across the country. The people we help are often in crisis situations. They may have lost their jobs, have had a child removed from school, or have had a loved one suffer from receiving little or no diabetes care in detention. Others simply want clear information about their rights. We provide assistance in the following areas: * School and education * Employment * Corrections and law enforcement * Public accommodations and access to programs In addition, Legal Advocacy contains a litigation program which engages in impact litigation in matters involving or affecting people with diabetes. This work includes authoring and signing onto amicus briefs, assisting outside attorneys who are representing people with diabetes in matters involving discrimination, and involvement as plaintiff in select cases. Expectations for Summer Intern: The summer intern will report jointly to the Director of Legal Advocacy and to the Director of Litigation. The intern will receive training in the science of diabetes and on disability discrimination law, and will assist in the provision of legal services to people affected by diabetes discrimination. He or she may provide the following services: 1. Intake for people affected by diabetes discrimination - Conduct detailed legal intake based on training - Help with issue-spotting and identifying potential urgencies - Produce written or verbal case analyses and participate in strategy decisions - Connect on a human level with people who are often in distress 2. Coordinate Advocacy Attorney Network referrals - As needed, find available network attorneys and contact them to explain details of case that is being referred - Report back attorney availability and connect the client with the attorney 3. Perform research projects - Perform case specific legal research for people with diabetes - Where appropriate, synthesize the legal research into public-facing fact sheets - If interested, design and complete a personal legal research project. The project must be connected to diabetes discrimination. 4. Assist with litigation activities While litigation activities can be unpredictable, some examples may include: - Drafting discovery requests - Assisting with editing and drafting briefs, settlement agreements, or other court filings - Conducting legal research on discrete issues related to the litigation - Participating in litigation strategy calls - Performing outreach to outside attorneys litigating on behalf of people with diabetes 5. Perform substantive administrative duties on time - Track projects and hours worked - Attend staff meetings - Complete case notes and reports 6. Convey legal information under supervision of Program attorneys (This is only available for interns who have demonstrated success in conducting legal intakes and comprehension of the law and essentials of diabetes.) Summer Intern Skills and Requirements: * Completed at least one year at an accredited law school, or recent graduate * Interest in creative problem solving, conflict resolution and nontraditional legal work * Ability to adapt communication to widely different audiences * Superior phone and email/written communication skills * Ability to quickly learn and internalize complex medical and legal concepts * Ability to conduct broad legal research, not just case law (informal guidance, agency directives, websites) * Clear, simple, professional legal writing * Strong organizational and time management skills for a high-volume caseload * Coordination skills for interacting with a large and passionate volunteer network * Emotional intelligence * Positive and collaborative disposition * Professional attitude and strong work ethic Any of the following skills strengthens your application, but are not required: * Disability rights law experience or knowledge, especially in our areas of service * Detailed understanding of diabetes * Experience with legal aid hotlines or direct legal services programs * Spanish language skills * Identify with broader disability and civil rights movements * Demonstrated interest in entering public service or public interest work To apply, please send a cover letter and resume to Sarah Fech-Baughman at sfech at diabetes.org. The Association is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Prospective employees will receive consideration without discrimination because of race, color, religion, creed, gender, national origin, age, disability, marital or veteran status, sexual orientation, or any other legally protected status. Sarah Fech-Baughman Director of Litigation Government Affairs and Advocacy [cid:image003.jpg at 01D4ACED.B4CB5C80] 2451 Crystal Drive Suite 900 Arlington, VA 22202 Phone: 703.253.4823 diabetes.org 1-800-DIABETES (800-342-2383) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2934 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Legal Advocacy Summer Intern Job Description 2019.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 181876 bytes Desc: Legal Advocacy Summer Intern Job Description 2019.pdf URL: From jtfetter at yahoo.com Wed Jan 16 13:53:20 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 08:53:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Ninth Circuit ruling in website/mobile application title III case today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c93e483-89fb-e06a-0736-a56b5c10cd0a@yahoo.com> For national chains at least, a Ninth Circuit ruling has the effect of a nationwide decision, since most large chains want access to the California market. Of course, there's always the Supreme Court. I wonder how soon a 5 to 4 reversal of the Ninth Circuit on this issue, if not on this case, will be handed down? On 1/15/2019 4:10 PM, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw wrote: > This is an excellent outcome! If only we could get rulings like this in the Eighth Circuit. > > Ms. Tai Tomasi, J.D. > Pronouns: she/her/hers > Staff Attorney > > > > 400 East Court Ave., Ste. 300 > Des Moines, Iowa 50309 > Tel: 515-278-2502; Toll Free: 1-800-779-2502 > FAX: 515-278-0539; Relay 711 > E-mail: ttomasi at driowa.org > www.driowa.org > > Our Mission:  To defend and promote the human and legal rights of Iowans with disabilities > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This e-mail and any attachments contain information from the law firm of Disability Rights Iowa and are intended solely for the use of the named recipient(s). This e-mail may contain privileged attorney-client communications or work product. Any dissemination by anyone other than an intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient, you are prohibited from any further viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any use of the e-mail or attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, notify the sender immediately and delete the e-mail, any attachments, and all copies from any drives or storage media and destroy any printouts. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 3:03 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Nightingale, Noel > Subject: [blindlaw] Ninth Circuit ruling in website/mobile application title III case today > > Blindlaw listers, > > I have attached an opinion issued today by the Ninth Circuit relevant to the application of the ADA to mobile applications and websites. The short of it is, that the Ninth circuit ruled that the ADA does apply, even without specific technical standards being issued by DOJ. > > Noel > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jan 17 17:03:31 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:03:31 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [DRBA] AARP Foundation Litigation is hiring an Economic Justice Attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05c401d4ae86$93aff520$bb0fdf60$@labarrelaw.com> fyi From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Bagby, Kelly Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:25 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] AARP Foundation Litigation is hiring an Economic Justice Attorney Please spread the word. Thanks! https://careers.aarp.org/ShowJob/Id/1915319/Impact-Litigation-Attorney-%E2%80%93-Economic-Justice-and-Aging/ Kelly Bagby VP for Litigation on Health, Housing, Hunger and Human Services 601 E St NW, Washington, DC 20049 Office: (202) 434-2103 | Email: kbagby at aarp.org Follow us on Twitter at @aarpfoundation _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE - This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read or play this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 6338 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joshl at loevy.com Thu Jan 17 17:20:50 2019 From: joshl at loevy.com (Josh Loevy) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:20:50 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Casetext Message-ID: Has anyone given this legal research system a try? If so, thoughts on Jaws accessibility? From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jan 17 17:49:12 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:49:12 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] National Association of Blind Lawyers Annual Meeting, July 9, 2019 Message-ID: <064b01d4ae8c$f5090310$df1b0930$@labarrelaw.com> Hello everybody, I hope your 2019 is getting off to a good start. As you know, NABL is a proud division of the National Federation of the Blind, and we will be meeting at the NFB's Annual Convention being held this year in Las Vegas from July 7 through 12. NABL will meet the afternoon of July 9th. I hope that many, many of you will be joining us. We are starting the planning for this year's meeting, and I would like to get any thoughts for topics and speakers you would like to hear from this year. Many of our members are able to convert our seminars into CLE credits because we provide materials and attendance certificates. So please let me know of your ideas. slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thanks so much! Scott From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 19:05:02 2019 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:05:02 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Association of Blind Lawyers Annual Meeting, July 9, 2019 In-Reply-To: <064b01d4ae8c$f5090310$df1b0930$@labarrelaw.com> References: <064b01d4ae8c$f5090310$df1b0930$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <06ED9CC5-2A77-49E0-99AA-2C75AB4F7F61@gmail.com> Scott, I have an idea for a topic, but haven’t given much thought to how it would be executed. I seek pro bono and public service opportunities where I can and I have noticed a few barriers for blind attorneys. First, many pro bono opportunities that are organized by bar associations or the groups often involve a sort of one-time clinic with brief training before hand. In these scenarios, it can be difficult to be involved as a blind attorney as these events are not put together with accessibility in mind and structuring accommodations can be difficult on short notice or for one-time events. For those on-going projects or service opportunities, there is somewhat of a battle making different aspects of service accessible. For example, I serve on the board of and volunteer for a non-profit that operates a diversion program. I am constantly struggling to ensure case files and materials are accessible. I think it is a position quiet different from seeking accommodations in the workplace because you are there not as an employee, but as a volunteer. If you think it’s an interesting topic, we can certainly discuss it further and I can further explain the frustrations I have encountered. Respectfully, Cody J. Davis, J.D., M.P.A. Email: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Phone: (919) 349-9799 Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/codyjdavisesq > On Jan 17, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello everybody, I hope your 2019 is getting off to a good start. As you > know, NABL is a proud division of the National Federation of the Blind, and > we will be meeting at the NFB's Annual Convention being held this year in > Las Vegas from July 7 through 12. NABL will meet the afternoon of July 9th. > I hope that many, many of you will be joining us. > > > > We are starting the planning for this year's meeting, and I would like to > get any thoughts for topics and speakers you would like to hear from this > year. Many of our members are able to convert our seminars into CLE credits > because we provide materials and attendance certificates. > > > > So please let me know of your ideas. > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com > > > > Thanks so much! > > > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jan 17 19:14:49 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 12:14:49 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [DRBA] Staff Attorney Position - American Diabetes Association In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <077001d4ae98$eadde660$c099b320$@labarrelaw.com> fyi From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Alana Tokayer Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:56 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Staff Attorney Position - American Diabetes Association Hi All, We are really excited to be recruiting for a Staff Attorney position with our Legal Advocacy team here at the American Diabetes Association. The Association’s Legal Advocacy team is committed to combatting discrimination against people with diabetes, and the Staff Attorney will play an integral role in helping us achieve that goal. One of the Staff Attorney’s primary responsibilities will be to provide direct legal assistance to people across the country who are being discriminated against because of their diabetes. We are interested in hearing from attorneys with 0-3 years of experience, or attorneys with more experience who are interested in transitioning to a non-traditional legal career. The position is in our home office in Arlington, VA. Please feel free to pass along this job opening if you know of attorneys who might be interesting in applying. https://diabetes.taleo.net/careersection/ada_external/jobdetail.ftl?job=180000T9 &lang=en#.XDzemZl0Kdg.gmail All the best, Alana Tokayer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alana S. Tokayer, Esq. Director, Legal Advocacy ***Licensed to practice law only in CA, VA and DC*** 2451 Crystal Drive, Suite 900 Arlington, Virginia 22202 Phone: 1-800-676-4065, ext. 1321 Email: Atokayer at diabetes.org diabetes.org Disclaimer: While the American Diabetes Association attempts to ensure that all legal information is accurate and current, this general legal information about federal protections is not a substitute for individualized legal advice, particularly in relation to information about state or local laws or regulations. Our attorneys are not licensed to practice law in most states and cannot provide guidance about state law. The law may change or have additional exceptions or interpretations. The American Diabetes Association, its attorneys and staff do not represent you. For detailed legal advice or representation, contact a locally licensed attorney. REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3970 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4611 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Jan 18 23:24:20 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 23:24:20 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [WADA] Attorney Opportunities at the Seattle City Attorney's Office In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com [mailto:washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Klasky Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 3:00 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Attorney Opportunities at the Seattle City Attorney's Office The Government Affairs Section of the Seattle City Attorney’s Office is seeking a civil litigation attorney, with 8-12 years of experience in civil litigation involving government entities. The Government Affairs Section provides legal advice and civil litigation services on a wide variety of local government topics. The selected attorney will have a demonstrated ability to handle complex litigation in a lead role. Application are only accepted through the Seattle City’s job website HERE. [Closes 1/29/2019 @ 4:00 pm] The Contracts & Utilities Section of the Seattle City Attorney's Office is seeking an Assistant City Attorney. The Section advises all City Departments and represents the City in litigation in the general business matters of the City, including providing legal services at all stages of contract formulation, implementation, and enforcement. The idea candidate will have 5-8 years of experience in procurement contracts, construction contracts, real property, municipal finance, software and information technology contracts, or municipal utility law. Applications are only accepted through the Seattle City’s job website HERE, [Closes 2/5/2019 @ 4:00 pm] The Seattle City Attorney’s Office is seeking an experience attorney to support the Office of Housing in affordable housing real estate transactions. With a team of high-quality public lenders as his or her principal client, this attorney will represent the City in advising and negotiating on a wide variety of LIHTC transactions. Using a blend of local funding sources, Seattle is producing and preserving affordable rental housing at an unprecedented pace. This position offers an opportunity to be part of a key solution to affordability challenges in one of the nation’s fastest growing cities. The City is looking for a real estate professional knowledgeable in the Low Income Housing Tax Credit program, as well as traditional multifamily and commercial lending. Individuals who pair the necessary qualifications with a dedication to supporting equitable housing outcomes will be especially competitive; this position offers a unique opportunity for the right person. Applications are accepted through the Seattle City’s job website HERE. [Open until Filled] Dana Klasky, Legal Assistant Washington Civil & Disability Advocate (206) 402-5846 www.wacda.com 3513 NE 45th Street, Suite G Seattle, WA 98105 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From tim at timeldermusic.com Sat Jan 19 15:35:49 2019 From: tim at timeldermusic.com (tim at timeldermusic.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 07:35:49 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Casetext In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04d601d4b00c$a792aa10$f6b7fe30$@timeldermusic.com> We subscribe to the AI research tool. Uploading a brief and browsing AI-generated results seems to work well. However I prefer to read the result cases via Westlaw in a separate browser window by copying/pasting case citations. I've been really impressed by how well it identifies relevant cases in response to an uploaded brief. I cannot say if using it to manually search for and read and navigate linked cases is accessible. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Loevy Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:21 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Casetext Has anyone given this legal research system a try? If so, thoughts on Jaws accessibility? From mnowicki4 at icloud.com Sat Jan 19 19:43:50 2019 From: mnowicki4 at icloud.com (Michal Nowicki) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:43:50 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Questions About Working Overtime due to Blindness Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I recently interviewed for a temporary attorney position that pays by the hour. It is my understanding that attorneys in this position work 40 hours per week, though I do not know if overtime is allowed. Although I have not yet been offered the job, I have been wondering what to do if I get it, and if I ever need to work more than 40 hours in a given week due to my blindness to meet deadlines. While I would be happy to “gift” my employer the extra time (that is, work more than 40 hours as needed to finish a task on time, but agree to forego compensation for the extra hours), I am not sure if doing so would be legal under applicable wage laws. Obviously, I do not want to advise an employer to break the law. That being said, can any of you answer any of the following questions: 1. If I am not supposed to work more than 40 hours per week, may I nonetheless work additional hours if I need the extra time due to disability-related barriers to complete an assignment on time? 2. If working additional hours qualifies as a reasonable accommodation under these circumstances, how should compensation for the extra time be handled? Must I be paid the regular hourly rate, the overtime rate (if applicable), or may I gift my employer any hours beyond 40? Any thoughts on these issues would be highly appreciated. Best, Michal From sbg at sbgaal.com Sat Jan 19 21:01:30 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 15:01:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Casetext In-Reply-To: <04d601d4b00c$a792aa10$f6b7fe30$@timeldermusic.com> References: <04d601d4b00c$a792aa10$f6b7fe30$@timeldermusic.com> Message-ID: <006101d4b03a$278caef0$76a60cd0$@sbgaal.com> What is the AI research tool? Is it part of westlaw? Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office:  (806) 763-3999 Mobile:  (806) 781-9296 Fax:  (806) 749-3752 E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 9:36 AM To: 'Josh Loevy'; 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Casetext We subscribe to the AI research tool. Uploading a brief and browsing AI-generated results seems to work well. However I prefer to read the result cases via Westlaw in a separate browser window by copying/pasting case citations. I've been really impressed by how well it identifies relevant cases in response to an uploaded brief. I cannot say if using it to manually search for and read and navigate linked cases is accessible. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Loevy Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:21 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Casetext Has anyone given this legal research system a try? If so, thoughts on Jaws accessibility? _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Sat Jan 19 21:06:27 2019 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 21:06:27 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Questions About Working Overtime due to Blindness In-Reply-To: <5c437e45.1c69fb81.c5f31.94edSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5c437e45.1c69fb81.c5f31.94edSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There was an interesting discussion about asking for reduced billables as a reasonable accommodation on this mailing list a short while ago which you may wish to read the responses of. As for being lawful to work more than you claim - I know a lot of lawyers who put on their timesheets what something should take rather than what they really do. This is problematic if you charge clients more than you actually do, but if you essentially donate time to your client and employer this is not going against ethics go. Most people that do this want to look efficient and this is whether or not they have a disability. I am not saying this is good, and it is probably not lawful as per labor laws, but on the basis I am working on a Sunday morning you can probably understand how I approach it in practice. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michal Nowicki via BlindLaw Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2019 5:44 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Michal Nowicki Subject: [blindlaw] Questions About Working Overtime due to Blindness Hi Everyone, I recently interviewed for a temporary attorney position that pays by the hour. It is my understanding that attorneys in this position work 40 hours per week, though I do not know if overtime is allowed. Although I have not yet been offered the job, I have been wondering what to do if I get it, and if I ever need to work more than 40 hours in a given week due to my blindness to meet deadlines. While I would be happy to “gift” my employer the extra time (that is, work more than 40 hours as needed to finish a task on time, but agree to forego compensation for the extra hours), I am not sure if doing so would be legal under applicable wage laws. Obviously, I do not want to advise an employer to break the law. That being said, can any of you answer any of the following questions: 1. If I am not supposed to work more than 40 hours per week, may I nonetheless work additional hours if I need the extra time due to disability-related barriers to complete an assignment on time? 2. If working additional hours qualifies as a reasonable accommodation under these circumstances, how should compensation for the extra time be handled? Must I be paid the regular hourly rate, the overtime rate (if applicable), or may I gift my employer any hours beyond 40? Any thoughts on these issues would be highly appreciated. Best, Michal _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From ttomasi at driowa.org Sat Jan 19 22:07:31 2019 From: ttomasi at driowa.org (Tai Tomasi) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 22:07:31 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Questions About Working Overtime due to Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <5c437e45.1c69fb81.c5f31.94edSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: I only bill The amount the legal task actually takes without the time I am using to make things accessible etc. as such, I agree with the approach Dr. Harpur explained. Tai Tomasi, J.D., M.P.A. Email: ttomasi at driowa.org Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse my brevity and any grammatical errors. On Jan 19, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw > wrote: There was an interesting discussion about asking for reduced billables as a reasonable accommodation on this mailing list a short while ago which you may wish to read the responses of. As for being lawful to work more than you claim - I know a lot of lawyers who put on their timesheets what something should take rather than what they really do. This is problematic if you charge clients more than you actually do, but if you essentially donate time to your client and employer this is not going against ethics go. Most people that do this want to look efficient and this is whether or not they have a disability. I am not saying this is good, and it is probably not lawful as per labor laws, but on the basis I am working on a Sunday morning you can probably understand how I approach it in practice. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michal Nowicki via BlindLaw Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2019 5:44 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Michal Nowicki > Subject: [blindlaw] Questions About Working Overtime due to Blindness Hi Everyone, I recently interviewed for a temporary attorney position that pays by the hour. It is my understanding that attorneys in this position work 40 hours per week, though I do not know if overtime is allowed. Although I have not yet been offered the job, I have been wondering what to do if I get it, and if I ever need to work more than 40 hours in a given week due to my blindness to meet deadlines. While I would be happy to “gift” my employer the extra time (that is, work more than 40 hours as needed to finish a task on time, but agree to forego compensation for the extra hours), I am not sure if doing so would be legal under applicable wage laws. Obviously, I do not want to advise an employer to break the law. That being said, can any of you answer any of the following questions: 1. If I am not supposed to work more than 40 hours per week, may I nonetheless work additional hours if I need the extra time due to disability-related barriers to complete an assignment on time? 2. If working additional hours qualifies as a reasonable accommodation under these circumstances, how should compensation for the extra time be handled? Must I be paid the regular hourly rate, the overtime rate (if applicable), or may I gift my employer any hours beyond 40? Any thoughts on these issues would be highly appreciated. Best, Michal _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ttomasi%40driowa.org From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sun Jan 20 18:17:22 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 11:17:22 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: [DRBA] National Disability Rights Network is hiring for a public policy analyst position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <031801d4b0ec$63788440$2a698cc0$@labarrelaw.com> From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Kenneth Shiotani Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 4:01 PM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] National Disability Rights Network is hiring for a public policy analyst position fyi The National Disability Rights Network (NDRN) in Washington, D.C., is seeking a Public Policy Analyst. NDRN is the nonprofit membership organization for the federally mandated Protection and Advocacy (P&A) Systems and Client Assistance Programs (CAP) for individuals with disabilities. NDRN provides training and technical assistance, legal support, and legislative advocacy, working to create a society in which people with disabilities are afforded equality of opportunity and are able to fully participate in exercising choice and self-determination. The public policy analyst will: work with Members and Hill staff as well as in the Administration; represent NDRN on task forces, committees, and coalitions; communicate with Members, public officials, and the public, and develop and disseminate public policy/legislative resource materials to NDRN membership. More information about the position and how to apply can be found at: http://www.ndrn.org/images/Documents/About_Us/Jobs_Internships/2019/Public-Policy-Analyst-description-2019.pdf Thanks. Eric Buehlmann Deputy Executive Director for Public Policy National Disability Rights Network 820 First Street, NE Suite 740 Washington, DC 20002 202-408-9514 x121 (o) 202-408-9520 (f) 202-870-2779 (m) www.ndrn.org Kenneth Shiotani National Disability Rights Network 820 First Street NE, Suite 740 Washington, DC 20002 (202) 408-9514 x 126 voice (202) 567-3526 (Direct) Kenneth.Shiotani at ndrn.org REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 69274 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Jan 22 20:55:34 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:55:34 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Information: Accessibility Webinar Series, Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Blindlaw listers, Because of the discussion on this list about accessibility of Office features, I thought the below information about Webinars by Microsoft might be of interest. Noel https://sway.office.com/ofnj0y3PT7dnqb0Z Accessibility Webinar Series Microsoft At Microsoft, our mission is to empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more. We are committed to delivering great experiences and customer service to people with disabilities. We have received feedback from many of our customers asking for training on the accessibility features of our products. Our team also understands not all our customers have the flexibility to connect with Microsoft accessibility experts at conferences. In response to overwhelming demand, we are launching a monthly webinar series to empower every customer with accessibility knowledge. Each month we will bring an interactive online event where any customer with a disability can learn about the latest Microsoft accessibility features, productivity tips for school and work, or technology that enables a more independent and full life. Each webinar will last one hour and is divided into two parts. First, guest presenters from Microsoft product teams will demonstrate how to use technology through a live video broadcast. Then, attendees and presenters will participate in a moderated question and answer session. Read on to find out about upcoming events and register. Schedule & Registration Thank you for your interest in attending an Accessibility Webinar. Below, you will find descriptions to upcoming webinars followed by a link to register. Prior to the event, you will receive an email with the link to join the webinar as well as how to access captions and other accessibility features during the webinar. There is a limit to the number of attendees for each webinar, so please be sure to register early and only for the events you want to attend. Magnifier and Low Vision Features in Windows 10 February 20, 2019, 12:00 - 1:00 pm Pacific Time (8:00 - 9:00 pm GMT) Presented by Jason Grieves from the Windows team. Microsoft's mission is to "empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more" and this session will dive into how Microsoft is empowering people who are Low Vision to achieve more! This session is intended to demonstrate the low vision accessibility features in Windows 10, including features recently introduced in the Windows 10 October 2018 update. We will also announce some features that are planned for 2019. Finally, we will describe how to become a "Windows Insider" to get early releases of new features and how to provide feedback on both generally available and early releases of Windows 10. This session will demonstrate new features like: *Magnifier centered mouse mode that makes it easier to find and use the mouse cursor. * "Make Text Bigger" option that increases the text size across Start, Windows Mail, Office, web applications such as Twitter and Netflix, and many other applications and places within Windows. Join us to ask your questions about the latest Low Vision features in Windows 10 and learn what's next. Register for Magnifier and Low Vision Features in Windows 10 [link] Navigating the New Office Ribbon March 20, 2019, 12:00 - 1:00 pm Pacific Time (8:00 - 9:00 pm GMT) Presented by Jeremy Spurlin and Lorena Huang Liu from the Office team. Have you ever found it difficult to find a specific command in the Office Ribbon while editing a Word document or composing an email reply? If you have used Office Online recently, you may have noticed a new Simplified Ribbon that is more streamlined and has fewer visible controls. This session will show how you can focus better on your content with less distraction in the Ribbon while still being able to access all of the Ribbon with your favorite commands, and quickly navigate the Simplified Ribbon with your keyboard. Register for Navigating the New Office Ribbon [link] Feedback & Support Microsoft is committed to delivering the best possible experience for all our customers. Would you like to suggest a topic for a future webinar? Let us know through the Microsoft Accessibility Forum Accessibility Webinar category. If you have a disability or have questions related to accessibility, please contact the Microsoft Disability Answer Desk for technical assistance. This includes help registering or joining an Accessibility Webinar. The Disability Answer Desk support team is trained in using many popular assistive technologies and can offer assistance in English, Spanish, French, and American Sign Language. If you are a government agency, business, school, or other organization, you can connect with an accessibility expert by contacting the enterprise Disability Answer Desk. The support team can answer accessibility related questions about Microsoft products, file bugs or feature requests, and track down accessibility conformance reports. Archives Did you miss an event or are you unable to attend the live session? All events are recorded and a link to the recording will be posted below within a few days after the event. Narrator 101 Coming Soon! January 16, 2019, 12:00 - 1:00 pm Pacific Time (8:00 - 9:00 pm GMT) Presented by Jeff Bishop and Mariah Moon from the Narrator team. Windows 10 includes features designed to empower every person to achieve their full potential, including people with vision, hearing, mobility, cognitive and speech disabilities. This session is designed for those individuals wanting to learn more about how to use Narrator, the free built in screen reader included with Windows 10. In the current Windows release we have brought a number of major improvements to Narrator to make it easier to learn and use as well as making it more familiar for existing screen reader users. Join us, ask questions, and learn directly from members of the Narrator team. During this session we will demonstrate how to: *Start Narrator. *Use the new QuickStart tutorial *Fine tune your Narrator experience with the rich set of Settings. *Browse the web with Narrator. *Send and receive email with Narrator. After completing this session you should be familiar with the basic concepts needed to use Narrator, including using basic Narrator commands, browsing the web, changing Narrator settings and sending and receiving email. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Jan 23 16:16:19 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:16:19 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Department of Education Office For Civil Rights Vacancy Announcement for an General Attorney, GS-0905-13/14 FPL-14 (Program Legal Group) Message-ID: See below the link for OCR USAJOBS vacancy announcement for General Attorney, GS-0905-13/14 (FPL-14) within the Program Legal Group, Office for Civil Rights (HQ's). The opening date is 1/23/2019 and closing date is 1/29/2019. Announcement(s): OCR-HQ-2019-0004 General Attorney, GS-0905-13/14 FPL-14 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/522271600 From deepa.goraya at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 13:09:25 2019 From: deepa.goraya at gmail.com (Deepa Goraya) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 08:09:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Website Accessibility Testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d4b3e6$0814fc30$183ef490$@gmail.com> Hi everyone, Please see below from the Equal Rights Center about website testing opportunities. They are specifically looking for people in the DMV area. Deepinder K. Goraya, ESQ. From: Chelsea Sullivan [mailto:csullivan at equalrightscenter.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 12:55 PM To: Deepa Goraya Subject: Website Accessibility Testing Hi all, My name is Chelsea Sullivan, and I work with the Equal Rights Center in Washington, DC. We are a civil rights organization that identifies and seeks to eliminate unlawful and unfair discrimination in Greater Washington, DC and throughout the United States. Our core strategy for identifying discrimination is civil rights testing. Recently, we started testing multifamily housing websites for their accessibility to the blind and low vision population. We are looking to recruit and train more testers who use assistive technology to help us with this work. Partnered with a sighted control tester, both testers are asked to view the mobile and desktop versions of the sites and compare their experiences. We are specifically looking for testers in Washington, DC and surrounding areas. If you have any questions or you are interested in becoming a tester for the ERC, please email me directly at csullivan at equalrightscenter.org . Thanks, Chelsea Sullivan Program Assistant The Equal Rights Center 820 First Street NE Ste. LL160 Washington, DC 20002 csullivan at equalrightscenter.org 202.370.3209 equalrightscenter.org United Way# 9397 From sanho817 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 23:48:48 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:48:48 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Message-ID: Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho From richard.welch.gs at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 01:24:23 2019 From: richard.welch.gs at gmail.com (Richard Welch) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 01:24:23 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sanho, welcome: Well first of all, one thing to really know is that the law is based on a very good command of the English language and often times construction matters. The first year of law school is often regarded as the hardest. The first year is referred to as “1L”And a quick search will net you a lot of good advice on this subject. IRAC Is another good thing to have a grasp on prior to entering law school. West academic has a subscription service which I would recommend with regard to content however, not so much when it comes to accessibility. Best, RICHARD WELCH Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:50 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/richard.welch.gs%40gmail.com From r.g.munro at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 12:20:05 2019 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 07:20:05 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <560CC384-F784-4FDA-BA50-3D51E02F46EC@gmail.com> Before the semester starts, look at any sample exams that the professors make available with exemplary answers. You can then take notes that will fit best into the sort of structure your professor likes. Do this for each class each semester and you will begin thinking like a lawyer more quickly. Onward! Rob > On Jan 24, 2019, at 18:48, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I > wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? > > Warmth, > Sanho > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 13:09:17 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 08:09:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: <560CC384-F784-4FDA-BA50-3D51E02F46EC@gmail.com> References: <560CC384-F784-4FDA-BA50-3D51E02F46EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <447fc83a-c333-ba57-4b2d-d62c1aa9c2f7@yahoo.com> I have no objection to the exam/legal writing/how to get good grades type of advice that has been sent out so far. That is all useful and important. But there are a few other matters that I wish someone had informed me about before going to law school. First, discrimination is alive and well in the legal profession. Your sighted colleagues will routinely be shocked that you can perform simple tasks, especially involving formatting. However, do not expect career services to acknowledge, let alone help you overcome, that discrimination when you are on the market. Second, 1L year may scare you a little, but 2L year is far harder and more of a grind, if you are on journal. And if you are not on journal, it will be extremely hard to find a job, especially in light of the aforementioned discrimination. Journal is harder for blind people, because it is all about making sure that the littlest  formatting things are correct. And even as people are telling you how much of an inspiration you are for doing simple tasks, those same people will be demanding perfection in editing/cite checking literally hundreds of citations in less than a week when their ability to finish a task is contingent upon you doing your part. Just do your best and grind through it. Finally, it is essential, and I do mean essential, to have a relationship, hobby, faith, some major part of your life that is outside of law school. Law school will try to teach you that the only two things that matter in this world are grades and money. They matter, but  other things matter far more. I don't mean to scare you. Law school itself is very doable. It's all the other things:  discrimination, journal, collective anxiety, etc. that can drive people nuts. Just keep remembering why you're putting yourself through this, and take it one day at a time. On 1/25/2019 7:20 AM, Robert Munro via BlindLaw wrote: > Before the semester starts, look at any sample exams that the professors make available with exemplary answers. You can then take notes that will fit best into the sort of structure your professor likes. > > Do this for each class each semester and you will begin thinking like a lawyer more quickly. > > Onward! > > Rob > >> On Jan 24, 2019, at 18:48, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I >> wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From marshall at blindlawyers.org Fri Jan 25 13:42:51 2019 From: marshall at blindlawyers.org (Scott Marshall) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:42:51 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sanho: Treat yourself once and a while! I'm talking about a date night out or a dinner with yourself, even if you cannot afford it financially or time-wise. When I attended Harvard Law School, and I won't tell you how long ago that was, I use to treat myself to a breakfast every Sunday morning at a nearby Holiday Inn. I ate all of my most favorite breakfast foods which I normally didn't consume; got to know all of the hotel staff including their legal and personal problems, and I dispensed all kinds of legal and nonlegal advice, as only a foolish law student can do (not recommended). All this having been said, when I graduated, the hotel staff gave me a $150 gift, which was huge back then. I was so touched, and I had to wipe away the tears. Good luck to you. Scott -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:49 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall%40blindlawyers.org From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:47:13 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:47:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B8EAA0A-B590-42DB-90BE-CF8663AF235B@gmail.com> Get the best grades you possibly can. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is as many practice exams and sample questions for each class as humanly possible. Outlining is helpful, but won't guarantee anything. Definitely don't use somebody else's outline, no matter how tempting it is or how hard the class is. Bad grades first year will kill your chances at a good internship or summer associate position. Get on journal, and follow James's advice about that. Work really, really hard on your article so it can be published. Try and have a definite idea of what law you want to do as quickly as possible. You don't want to be floundering around trying to get random jobs or internships. If you are having trouble deciding, try to get a judicial internship the summer after 1L year with a judge that does a variety of cases. If you want a federal clerkship, you must be on the lookout your first year, and begin applying your second year. You will probably have to apply for hundreds of things so be prepared. Also, be willing to relocate if possible, but do try to have some idea of where you want to practice. If you can get internships in that state, it will be easier to find jobs. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 25, 2019, at 8:42 AM, Scott Marshall via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi Sanho: > Treat yourself once and a while! I'm talking about a date night out or a dinner with yourself, even if you cannot afford it financially or time-wise. When I attended Harvard Law School, and I won't tell you how long ago that was, I use to treat myself to a breakfast every Sunday morning at a nearby Holiday Inn. I ate all of my most favorite breakfast foods which I normally didn't consume; got to know all of the hotel staff including their legal and personal problems, and I dispensed all kinds of legal and nonlegal advice, as only a foolish law student can do (not recommended). All this having been said, when I graduated, the hotel staff gave me a $150 gift, which was huge back then. I was so touched, and I had to wipe away the tears. > Good luck to you. > > Scott > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:49 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > Subject: [blindlaw] Readings > > Hello, > > I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? > > Warmth, > Sanho > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall%40blindlawyers.org > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From r.g.munro at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 16:21:12 2019 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:21:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: <447fc83a-c333-ba57-4b2d-d62c1aa9c2f7@yahoo.com> References: <560CC384-F784-4FDA-BA50-3D51E02F46EC@gmail.com> <447fc83a-c333-ba57-4b2d-d62c1aa9c2f7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39DEF645-9196-48CD-BF0E-DEBA1C57F08A@gmail.com> That’s all true. This morning it occurs to me that law school does not really prepare you for practicing law. It focuses on books and logic and history not the day to day details of how to be a lawyer and help people--Much less the practical things you need to know about running a business if you want to opening your own shop the way I did. Take any clinics, internships, or programs that give you practical experience working with attorneys as they do their day today jobs. This is a doable thing, but it's a marathon rather than a sprint. Good luck and remember that we are all here if you have questions as you go. Onward! Robert Munro r.g.munro at gmail.com > On 25 Jan, 2019, at 8:09 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > I have no objection to the exam/legal writing/how to get good grades type of advice that has been sent out so far. That is all useful and important. But there are a few other matters that I wish someone had informed me about before going to law school. > > First, discrimination is alive and well in the legal profession. Your sighted colleagues will routinely be shocked that you can perform simple tasks, especially involving formatting. However, do not expect career services to acknowledge, let alone help you overcome, that discrimination when you are on the market. > > Second, 1L year may scare you a little, but 2L year is far harder and more of a grind, if you are on journal. And if you are not on journal, it will be extremely hard to find a job, especially in light of the aforementioned discrimination. Journal is harder for blind people, because it is all about making sure that the littlest formatting things are correct. And even as people are telling you how much of an inspiration you are for doing simple tasks, those same people will be demanding perfection in editing/cite checking literally hundreds of citations in less than a week when their ability to finish a task is contingent upon you doing your part. Just do your best and grind through it. > > Finally, it is essential, and I do mean essential, to have a relationship, hobby, faith, some major part of your life that is outside of law school. Law school will try to teach you that the only two things that matter in this world are grades and money. They matter, but other things matter far more. > > I don't mean to scare you. Law school itself is very doable. It's all the other things: discrimination, journal, collective anxiety, etc. that can drive people nuts. Just keep remembering why you're putting yourself through this, and take it one day at a time. > > > On 1/25/2019 7:20 AM, Robert Munro via BlindLaw wrote: >> Before the semester starts, look at any sample exams that the professors make available with exemplary answers. You can then take notes that will fit best into the sort of structure your professor likes. >> >> Do this for each class each semester and you will begin thinking like a lawyer more quickly. >> >> Onward! >> >> Rob >> >>> On Jan 24, 2019, at 18:48, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I >>> wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From sanho817 at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 18:07:30 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:07:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Message-ID: Hello, Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? Warmth, Sanho From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 18:41:35 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:41:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DAE190D-8A38-46DC-8A83-80C0FBEA2AAD@gmail.com> It depends on what you need access to. Sometimes the textbooks will be available on Bookshare, but you'll need to make sure you get the right edition. Most of the time your disability service office can get electronic copies from the publisher if you provide proof of purchase of a print copy. With respect to actual legal material, your school should provide you with access to Westlaw, Lexis, or both, through which you will be able to access the cases, statutes, journal articles, and other things you'll need. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 25, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello, > > Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From jdg.gardner2009 at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 18:44:07 2019 From: jdg.gardner2009 at gmail.com (John Gardner) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:44:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Questions Message-ID: My name is John Gardner. I live in Omaha Nebraska. I am looking for some advice on strategies/questions/advice about law school and the LSAT. First- I had a lower undergrad GPA. I was told by a law school admissions committee member to take some graduate level classes and get my GPA up. I have a 4.0 GPA as of now. Should I submit the masters classes I've taken up to this point to my LSAC profile to show I have a 4.0 GPA? Should I finish my Masters first or does it matter? Next- the LSAT I've taken it twice. I have went from a 137 to a 145. I have read a plethora of LSAT prep/study books. Obviously they have helped. I am thinking next that I would like to hire an LSAT tutor! Where do you guys suggest that I look, any copies or would wven law schools have LSAT tutors? Any advice on the things I've mentioned would be greatly appreciated! Thanks John D, Gardner From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:27:51 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:27:51 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Message-ID: Hi Santo, You will need to be very good with technology in general. I use JAWS and Windows, but I know of many who prefer apple tech. Whatever your solution is, you will need to interact with pdf's a lot of information will be thrown at you in pdf form, no matter how much you insist it's not accessible. You will need good OCR and you will need to know how to make footnotes and a bunch of other annoying formatting information I never really needed anywhere else, and you will need to work with people to work with accommodations all the time. There was a recent thread here concerning the use of track changes. Many in the profession, and in law school, use track changes. If you're school is like mine you will need to work on projects with other students. This will count for a part of your grade and really tests your mettle in dealing with others. Most of your peers will be accommodating, but I find in large groups things like google docs and doodle pools were used a lot. Drop box and other aps will become like breathing if they aren't already, but I would suggest working with grants and whatever money you can get as a student to make sure you have the best OCR - I use Kurzwell - that you can get and learn how to work with it. All that being said, the thing I really wish I knew before going into law school was the schedule of some of the upper year projects. For instance, if you want to clerk for a judge, most positions are taking applications in January for positions starting after graduation the following spring. In many cases 18 months in advance. Most of the articling applications are due in the summer between second and third year. Firms will be interviewing candidates for positions 12 months in advance, and many of the best articling positions go to students who do a summer job, and the applications for those are due just after the first year grades come out, so a lot does depend on those first year grades, and if you don't summer somewhere you will need to work very hard to get a position after law school. There are a few good ways to recover from a bad report card in first year. One of the best is to get an article published somewhere. Basically, if you don't ace the first year, you can work super hard in second year and still do ok, but be prepared to have to work incredibly hard in second year, or you may have a difficult time finding something in third year. Also, start networking early in first year and really keep on top of those contacts. Make sure to send some of the key contacts you meet an email about once every month or two, at least twice a semester to check in and make sure they remember you, this can be really important come job time. Also, the Career department at your school may not be very useful at helping you get a position anywhere. Mine was pretty bad, and I wouldn't trust them with printing out a job application. Friends of mine who could see pointed out copy streaks and other errors with some of what they handed me. Thankfully I had it checked before sending it out. Personal networking will be the greatest asset. Really stay on top of it. Think of yourself as part of the legal profession from the minute you accept your position to study. Good luck, Ben From: Richard Welch To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Readings Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Sanho, welcome: Well first of all, one thing to really know is that the law is based on a very good command of the English language and often times construction matters. The first year of law school is often regarded as the hardest. The first year is referred to as ?1L?And a quick search will net you a lot of good advice on this subject. IRAC Is another good thing to have a grasp on prior to entering law school. West academic has a subscription service which I would recommend with regard to content however, not so much when it comes to accessibility. Best, RICHARD WELCH Best, Richard Welch ricwelch at gmail.com 781-367-4964 Please consider connecting on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b ________________________________ From: BlindLaw on behalf of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:50 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 22:25:16 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45279B60-F0B3-4F38-9669-75A29BD9461B@gmail.com> Ben's advice is great. I am personally terrible at networking, and I know this hampered me throughout law school. On the other hand, I was friends with a DA at my church, which lead me to getting an internship in the MD state's attorney's office, and now I work as a prosecutor in central PA. So even if you're bad at it, you can probably find some contacts to cultivate. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 25, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi Santo, > > You will need to be very good with technology in general. I use JAWS and Windows, but I know of many who prefer apple tech. Whatever your solution is, you will need to interact with pdf's a lot of information will be thrown at you in pdf form, no matter how much you insist it's not accessible. You will need good OCR and you will need to know how to make footnotes and a bunch of other annoying formatting information I never really needed anywhere else, and you will need to work with people to work with accommodations all the time. There was a recent thread here concerning the use of track changes. Many in the profession, and in law school, use track changes. > > If you're school is like mine you will need to work on projects with other students. This will count for a part of your grade and really tests your mettle in dealing with others. Most of your peers will be accommodating, but I find in large groups things like google docs and doodle pools were used a lot. Drop box and other aps will become like breathing if they aren't already, but I would suggest working with grants and whatever money you can get as a student to make sure you have the best OCR - I use Kurzwell - that you can get and learn how to work with it. > > All that being said, the thing I really wish I knew before going into law school was the schedule of some of the upper year projects. For instance, if you want to clerk for a judge, most positions are taking applications in January for positions starting after graduation the following spring. In many cases 18 months in advance. > > Most of the articling applications are due in the summer between second and third year. Firms will be interviewing candidates for positions 12 months in advance, and many of the best articling positions go to students who do a summer job, and the applications for those are due just after the first year grades come out, so a lot does depend on those first year grades, and if you don't summer somewhere you will need to work very hard to get a position after law school. There are a few good ways to recover from a bad report card in first year. One of the best is to get an article published somewhere. Basically, if you don't ace the first year, you can work super hard in second year and still do ok, but be prepared to have to work incredibly hard in second year, or you may have a difficult time finding something in third year. > > Also, start networking early in first year and really keep on top of those contacts. Make sure to send some of the key contacts you meet an email about once every month or two, at least twice a semester to check in and make sure they remember you, this can be really important come job time. > > Also, the Career department at your school may not be very useful at helping you get a position anywhere. Mine was pretty bad, and I wouldn't trust them with printing out a job application. Friends of mine who could see pointed out copy streaks and other errors with some of what they handed me. Thankfully I had it checked before sending it out. > > Personal networking will be the greatest asset. Really stay on top of it. Think of yourself as part of the legal profession from the minute you accept your position to study. > > Good luck, > Ben > > From: Richard Welch > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Readings > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Sanho, welcome: > > Well first of all, one thing to really know is that the law is based on a very good command of the English language and often times construction matters. The first year of law school is often regarded as the hardest. The first year is referred to as ?1L?And a quick search will net you a lot of good advice on this subject. IRAC Is another good thing to have a grasp on prior to entering law school. West academic has a subscription service which I would recommend with regard to content however, not so much when it comes to accessibility. > > Best, > > RICHARD WELCH > > Best, > > Richard Welch > ricwelch at gmail.com > 781-367-4964 > Please consider connecting on LinkedIn > linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b > > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw on behalf of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:50 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > Subject: [blindlaw] Readings > > Hello, > > I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 22:33:09 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:33:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: <45279B60-F0B3-4F38-9669-75A29BD9461B@gmail.com> References: <45279B60-F0B3-4F38-9669-75A29BD9461B@gmail.com> Message-ID: My goodness I cannot echo Ben's point enough about not trusting your career office. I had the same issues with sloppy print jobs. You need to trust that the person looking at your applications will handle them with as much care as they would their own. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:25 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > Ben's advice is great. I am personally terrible at networking, and I know this hampered me throughout law school. On the other hand, I was friends with a DA at my church, which lead me to getting an internship in the MD state's attorney's office, and now I work as a prosecutor in central PA. So even if you're bad at it, you can probably find some contacts to cultivate. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 25, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hi Santo, >> >> You will need to be very good with technology in general. I use JAWS and Windows, but I know of many who prefer apple tech. Whatever your solution is, you will need to interact with pdf's a lot of information will be thrown at you in pdf form, no matter how much you insist it's not accessible. You will need good OCR and you will need to know how to make footnotes and a bunch of other annoying formatting information I never really needed anywhere else, and you will need to work with people to work with accommodations all the time. There was a recent thread here concerning the use of track changes. Many in the profession, and in law school, use track changes. >> >> If you're school is like mine you will need to work on projects with other students. This will count for a part of your grade and really tests your mettle in dealing with others. Most of your peers will be accommodating, but I find in large groups things like google docs and doodle pools were used a lot. Drop box and other aps will become like breathing if they aren't already, but I would suggest working with grants and whatever money you can get as a student to make sure you have the best OCR - I use Kurzwell - that you can get and learn how to work with it. >> >> All that being said, the thing I really wish I knew before going into law school was the schedule of some of the upper year projects. For instance, if you want to clerk for a judge, most positions are taking applications in January for positions starting after graduation the following spring. In many cases 18 months in advance. >> >> Most of the articling applications are due in the summer between second and third year. Firms will be interviewing candidates for positions 12 months in advance, and many of the best articling positions go to students who do a summer job, and the applications for those are due just after the first year grades come out, so a lot does depend on those first year grades, and if you don't summer somewhere you will need to work very hard to get a position after law school. There are a few good ways to recover from a bad report card in first year. One of the best is to get an article published somewhere. Basically, if you don't ace the first year, you can work super hard in second year and still do ok, but be prepared to have to work incredibly hard in second year, or you may have a difficult time finding something in third year. >> >> Also, start networking early in first year and really keep on top of those contacts. Make sure to send some of the key contacts you meet an email about once every month or two, at least twice a semester to check in and make sure they remember you, this can be really important come job time. >> >> Also, the Career department at your school may not be very useful at helping you get a position anywhere. Mine was pretty bad, and I wouldn't trust them with printing out a job application. Friends of mine who could see pointed out copy streaks and other errors with some of what they handed me. Thankfully I had it checked before sending it out. >> >> Personal networking will be the greatest asset. Really stay on top of it. Think of yourself as part of the legal profession from the minute you accept your position to study. >> >> Good luck, >> Ben >> >> From: Richard Welch >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Readings >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" >> >> Sanho, welcome: >> >> Well first of all, one thing to really know is that the law is based on a very good command of the English language and often times construction matters. The first year of law school is often regarded as the hardest. The first year is referred to as ?1L?And a quick search will net you a lot of good advice on this subject. IRAC Is another good thing to have a grasp on prior to entering law school. West academic has a subscription service which I would recommend with regard to content however, not so much when it comes to accessibility. >> >> Best, >> >> RICHARD WELCH >> >> Best, >> >> Richard Welch >> ricwelch at gmail.com >> 781-367-4964 >> Please consider connecting on LinkedIn >> linkedin.com/in/richard-welch-258310b >> >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw on behalf of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:50 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> Subject: [blindlaw] Readings >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com From NSingh at cov.com Fri Jan 25 23:50:25 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:50:25 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: People have made several great points already. I would add on networking, you can have a narrow radius that can still be effective. Try to get to know 1-3 professors well. They can vouch for you in a direct and personal way when it comes to getting some firm jobs, if they worked in the private sector before teaching, or else when it comes time to apply to clerkships, in which case they may be friendly with a certain circle of judges. To do this, attend office hours even if you do not have questions on the material. Attend any sort of dinner or wine-and-cheese social gathering hosted by your professor. Consider becoming a research assistant if that option exists. Law professors, especially of the law and economics school, often need the research help when writing the next article. In regard to accessibility, seek out your school's Westlaw and/or Lexis reps. These people are precisely there to educate law students about how the research platforms work. Get training from them on a one-on-one basis. I use a screen reader, so I find group training classes a poor format. Even if your school's rep may not know the exact way how JAWS or whatever else you use works, she can either give you alternatives or put you in touch with Westlaw or Lexis' accessibility specialists, who have been pretty helpful to me. From the individual training, try especially to learn the Westlaw search syntax early in your law school life, as it will make you more efficient. You may also consider getting to know your law library staff. I often went to them to scan in chapters from my textbooks while I waited for the disability office to finish the full textbook scan when the course had already started. They may be able to scan in other materials, like books from the Examples and Explanation series, which are distillations of black letter law that you cover in mainstream law classes, i.e. contracts, property, evidence, and the like. Such books are a nice supplement to course outlines and practice exams. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:49 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From jdg.gardner2009 at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 00:09:00 2019 From: jdg.gardner2009 at gmail.com (John Gardner) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:09:00 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Questions Message-ID: <4276633B-6D94-4D95-A9F9-116011F2E982@gmail.com> My name is John Gardner. I live in Omaha Nebraska. I am looking for some advice on strategies/questions/advice about law school and the LSAT. First- I had a lower undergrad GPA. I was told by a law school admissions committee member to take some graduate level classes and get my GPA up. I have a 4.0 GPA as of now. Should I submit the masters classes I've taken up to this point to my LSAC profile to show I have a 4.0 GPA? Should I finish my Masters first or does it matter? Next- the LSAT I've taken it twice. I have went from a 137 to a 145. I have read a plethora of LSAT prep/study books. Obviously they have helped. I am thinking next that I would like to hire an LSAT tutor! Where do you guys suggest that I look, any copies or would wven law schools have LSAT tutors? Any advice on the things I've mentioned would be greatly appreciated! Thanks John D, Gardner From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Sat Jan 26 03:09:52 2019 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 03:09:52 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Readings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am an academic and I can not over-emphasise the power of saying "hello" to professors. Students that some after class and say hello or come up to me in th coffee line and chat develop a relationship. I am a lot more likely to give these students work and down the track I am not just writing a basic reference but a reference with substance and I can say that I have worked with them and they are really good. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2019 9:50 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Singh, Nandini Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Readings People have made several great points already. I would add on networking, you can have a narrow radius that can still be effective. Try to get to know 1-3 professors well. They can vouch for you in a direct and personal way when it comes to getting some firm jobs, if they worked in the private sector before teaching, or else when it comes time to apply to clerkships, in which case they may be friendly with a certain circle of judges. To do this, attend office hours even if you do not have questions on the material. Attend any sort of dinner or wine-and-cheese social gathering hosted by your professor. Consider becoming a research assistant if that option exists. Law professors, especially of the law and economics school, often need the research help when writing the next article. In regard to accessibility, seek out your school's Westlaw and/or Lexis reps. These people are precisely there to educate law students about how the research platforms work. Get training from them on a one-on-one basis. I use a screen reader, so I find group training classes a poor format. Even if your school's rep may not know the exact way how JAWS or whatever else you use works, she can either give you alternatives or put you in touch with Westlaw or Lexis' accessibility specialists, who have been pretty helpful to me. From the individual training, try especially to learn the Westlaw search syntax early in your law school life, as it will make you more efficient. You may also consider getting to know your law library staff. I often went to them to scan in chapters from my textbooks while I waited for the disability office to finish the full textbook scan when the course had already started. They may be able to scan in other materials, like books from the Examples and Explanation series, which are distillations of black letter law that you cover in mainstream law classes, i.e. contracts, property, evidence, and the like. Such books are a nice supplement to course outlines and practice exams. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:49 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Readings Hello, I'm starting law school in the Fall. Can anyone share their "What I wish I'd known as an incoming blind law student" advice? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 16:42:29 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:42:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Message-ID: Hi Sanho, You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. Good luck, Ben From: Sanho Steele-Louchart To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? Warmth, Sanho ------------------------------ From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 16:50:20 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:50:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8EDA2924-5A19-4A54-A11E-11F6A9FA3690@gmail.com> I have tried to use Seeing AI ever since it came out, and have had little luck; KNFB Reader gets much better results. I have confirmed that this is a problem with the app and not with my skill in taking pictures; I have had sighted people take pictures of documents that also get very bad results. Seeing AI can also only scan and process one page at a time, whereas KNFB Reader is able to do multi-page documents. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi Sanho, > > You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. > > Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. > > Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. > > As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. > > Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. > > Good luck, > Ben > > > From: Sanho Steele-Louchart > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hello, > > Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? > > Warmth, > Sanho > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 16:57:41 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:57:41 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT questions Message-ID: Hi John I'm not sure about your grades question, but I did get a 172 on the LSAT. Where are you getting stuck? Is there one section you are having more trouble with? Is it a question of time? When studying for the LSAT I went through about 10 old exams without paying any attention to time, just focusing on getting a perfect score. The first practice I did was dismal, but by analyzing the incorrect answers and focusing on why the correct responses were the "BEST" responses, I was able to steadily improve, and by the end of the book of 10 practice exams I was getting about a 168. That was just from seriously looking at why the correct answers were the "BEST" Basically you need to think like the ones writing the test. Untill you can get a really good score that you are happy with, I would not try to increase your speed. Like practicing anything, do it perfectly slowly, and then speed up. If you are getting low scores you need to slow down till you can get better numbers. In the beginning I would spend 2 hours writing a single section. A practice exam would take me an entire day to work on, but by going slowly enough that I could focus thoroughly on each response, and improve my responses then I could increase my speed. I'd be happy to discuss this with you more off list. My email is bluezinfandel at hotmail.com All the best, Ben Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:09:00 -0600 From: John Gardner To: NFB List servers Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Questions Message-ID: <4276633B-6D94-4D95-A9F9-116011F2E982 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My name is John Gardner. I live in Omaha Nebraska. I am looking for some advice on strategies/questions/advice about law school and the LSAT. First- I had a lower undergrad GPA. I was told by a law school admissions committee member to take some graduate level classes and get my GPA up. I have a 4.0 GPA as of now. Should I submit the masters classes I've taken up to this point to my LSAC profile to show I have a 4.0 GPA? Should I finish my Masters first or does it matter? Next- the LSAT I've taken it twice. I have went from a 137 to a 145. I have read a plethora of LSAT prep/study books. Obviously they have helped. I am thinking next that I would like to hire an LSAT tutor! Where do you guys suggest that I look, any copies or would wven law schools have LSAT tutors? Any advice on the things I've mentioned would be greatly appreciated! Thanks John D, Gardner From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 18:11:37 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:11:37 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 176, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My only problem with KNFB reader is that it costs close to 100$ I've even seen it "on sale" for 75, but never less than that. To me that is a lot of money to spend on an ap. I'd say ok, maybe the accuracy is a lot better, but is that really worth the cost. I guess it's a question of personal finances. I personally haven't paid for any of the aps on my phone, and I don't plan on it, but it's a personal choice. Another thing annoying to me was that I could get school funding for programs like Kurzwell, which I still use and would recommend, but there were no grants for phone aps, and much of the funding specifically excluded phone aps from the list of acceptable expenses. Maybe Sanho's situation with funding will be different, but I still think the KNFB reader is pricy. All the best, Ben Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:50:20 -0500 From: kelby carlson To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessibility Message-ID: <8EDA2924-5A19-4A54-A11E-11F6A9FA3690 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have tried to use Seeing AI ever since it came out, and have had little luck; KNFB Reader gets much better results. I have confirmed that this is a problem with the app and not with my skill in taking pictures; I have had sighted people take pictures of documents that also get very bad results. Seeing AI can also only scan and process one page at a time, whereas KNFB Reader is able to do multi-page documents. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi Sanho, > > You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. > > Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. > > Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. > > As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. > > Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. > > Good luck, > Ben > > > From: Sanho Steele-Louchart > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hello, > > Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? > > Warmth, > Sanho From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 19:57:47 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:57:47 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 176, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3386F2B8-CD21-4297-8315-3A1BAC8773C0@gmail.com> I'm surprised to hear that; my state's voc rehab paid for KNFB Reader on my phone during undergrad. I suppose it varies depending on where you are. It seems to me that using Seeing AI would not be very helpful except on short documents (I know it and KNFB Reader have both been very helpful since I started practicing when I suddenly am handed a print document to look at.) Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 27, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > > My only problem with KNFB reader is that it costs close to 100$ I've even seen it "on sale" for 75, but never less than that. To me that is a lot of money to spend on an ap. I'd say ok, maybe the accuracy is a lot better, but is that really worth the cost. I guess it's a question of personal finances. I personally haven't paid for any of the aps on my phone, and I don't plan on it, but it's a personal choice. > > Another thing annoying to me was that I could get school funding for programs like Kurzwell, which I still use and would recommend, but there were no grants for phone aps, and much of the funding specifically excluded phone aps from the list of acceptable expenses. > > Maybe Sanho's situation with funding will be different, but I still think the KNFB reader is pricy. > > All the best, > Ben > > > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:50:20 -0500 > From: kelby carlson > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessibility > Message-ID: <8EDA2924-5A19-4A54-A11E-11F6A9FA3690 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I have tried to use Seeing AI ever since it came out, and have had little luck; KNFB Reader gets much better results. I have confirmed that this is a problem with the app and not with my skill in taking pictures; I have had sighted people take pictures of documents that also get very bad results. Seeing AI can also only scan and process one page at a time, whereas KNFB Reader is able to do multi-page documents. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hi Sanho, >> >> You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. >> >> Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. >> >> Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. >> >> As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. >> >> Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. >> >> Good luck, >> Ben >> >> >> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Hello, >> >> Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 14:46:45 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 09:46:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 176, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <3386F2B8-CD21-4297-8315-3A1BAC8773C0@gmail.com> References: <3386F2B8-CD21-4297-8315-3A1BAC8773C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62623FB9-6FE0-424C-98F2-4861443E2CF6@gmail.com> I wonder, is the surprisingly high price indicative of the tendency to ring as much money out of state pockets as possible ? I am thinking of the analogous pricing for Jaws. Or is it a matter of the developer of Knfb reader being small and having to bolster revenue? I found the reviews to tend towards the negative. Not what one expects when considering a 100 dollar app. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Jan 27, 2019, at 2:57 PM, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > > I'm surprised to hear that; my state's voc rehab paid for KNFB Reader on my phone during undergrad. I suppose it varies depending on where you are. It seems to me that using Seeing AI would not be very helpful except on short documents (I know it and KNFB Reader have both been very helpful since I started practicing when I suddenly am handed a print document to look at.) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 27, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> >> My only problem with KNFB reader is that it costs close to 100$ I've even seen it "on sale" for 75, but never less than that. To me that is a lot of money to spend on an ap. I'd say ok, maybe the accuracy is a lot better, but is that really worth the cost. I guess it's a question of personal finances. I personally haven't paid for any of the aps on my phone, and I don't plan on it, but it's a personal choice. >> >> Another thing annoying to me was that I could get school funding for programs like Kurzwell, which I still use and would recommend, but there were no grants for phone aps, and much of the funding specifically excluded phone aps from the list of acceptable expenses. >> >> Maybe Sanho's situation with funding will be different, but I still think the KNFB reader is pricy. >> >> All the best, >> Ben >> >> >> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:50:20 -0500 >> From: kelby carlson >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessibility >> Message-ID: <8EDA2924-5A19-4A54-A11E-11F6A9FA3690 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I have tried to use Seeing AI ever since it came out, and have had little luck; KNFB Reader gets much better results. I have confirmed that this is a problem with the app and not with my skill in taking pictures; I have had sighted people take pictures of documents that also get very bad results. Seeing AI can also only scan and process one page at a time, whereas KNFB Reader is able to do multi-page documents. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Hi Sanho, >>> >>> You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. >>> >>> Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. >>> >>> Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. >>> >>> As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. >>> >>> Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> Ben >>> >>> >>> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Jan 28 20:21:01 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 20:21:01 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used a reader to access inaccessible print material. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 10:08 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility Hello, Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From r.g.munro at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 22:05:15 2019 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:05:15 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 176, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9DD10BD0-54D9-4400-8EFB-313FE83FE097@gmail.com> Try one of Prizmo’s apps, or PDF Pen; both have apps for phone and Mac, presumably Windows too. Abby Fine-reader is solid on my Mac. Fujitsu makes great scanners which will do automatic OCR when scanning. Onward! Robert Munro r.g.munro at gmail.com > On 27 Jan, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > > My only problem with KNFB reader is that it costs close to 100$ I've even seen it "on sale" for 75, but never less than that. To me that is a lot of money to spend on an ap. I'd say ok, maybe the accuracy is a lot better, but is that really worth the cost. I guess it's a question of personal finances. I personally haven't paid for any of the apps on my phone, and I don't plan on it, but it's a personal choice. > > Another thing annoying to me was that I could get school funding for programs like Kurzweil, which I still use and would recommend, but there were no grants for phone aps, and much of the funding specifically excluded phone aps from the list of acceptable expenses. > > Maybe Sanho's situation with funding will be different, but I still think the KNFB reader is pricy. > > All the best, > Ben > > > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:50:20 -0500 > From: kelby carlson > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessibility > Message-ID: <8EDA2924-5A19-4A54-A11E-11F6A9FA3690 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I have tried to use Seeing AI ever since it came out, and have had little luck; KNFB Reader gets much better results. I have confirmed that this is a problem with the app and not with my skill in taking pictures; I have had sighted people take pictures of documents that also get very bad results. Seeing AI can also only scan and process one page at a time, whereas KNFB Reader is able to do multi-page documents. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hi Sanho, >> >> You are getting a lot of good advice here. Networking doesn't have to be dozens of people. In fact, it's probably better to focus on a fewer number of people that you can make a better connection with. >> >> Get to know your library staff. They will be the most helpful people in the building. That is the quick answer to accessing hard copy. The library staff can scan it in and send you a digital copy. The school should already have a system in place for this, but in some cases it can take weeks - if they are scanning in hundreds of pages. So it's important to be very proactive in making sure the material is available for conversion early, and this can be a pain because many professors don't want to finalize the curriculum till the last minute. There will be a lot of extra work you will have to do to get the material, and no one will recognize this extra work. I started a student organization for students with a disability to improve the accommodation situation for disabled students. Don't expect them to be really on top of providing the accommodations, they will be willing - because the law requires it, but when it comes to having systems in place it might be a bit of a struggle. >> >> Also, get good with OCR and using your phone. I use seeing AI on an Iphone. I've heard good things about KNFB reader, and you might find it worth the money. Personally I object to paying for aps, Seeing AI is free, but it might not work for everything. Basically, the more you can do for yourself in this department the better. You may go to a guest lecture where the presenter has a handout. Having your phone read the document may be the best solution. I found the more I was skilled with OCR and other aps the more I could access. - One time I was actually emailed a jpg for a lecture. Thankfully Kurzwell was able to decipher it. >> >> As many options as you can have for overcoming hard copy is essential. There will be a variety of situations and what works in one situation will not work in other situations. >> >> Don't worry about the details of practicing law until you are articling. There is a lot to know about when it comes to the actual practice, billing books, etc, that is not part of learning the law, but you can pick up that after you get an articling position. For now stay focused on getting grades, networking, and taking on extracurriculars, for the CV. I would say in 1L focus on grades, and leave those extracurriculars till 2L, but these kind of questions come to personal preference and the type of lawyer you want to be. >> >> Good luck, >> Ben >> >> >> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessibility >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Hello, >> >> Thank you for the responses to yesterday's question. What were some of the strategies totally blind students used in order to access the hardcopy or otherwise inaccessible reading material? >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 22:11:04 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:11:04 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NVDA User Willing to Assist New Screenreader User? Message-ID: Hi all, I've recently befriended someone in the D.C. area who is in the process of losing his vision but is also trying to apply to law school. He understands the importance of getting up to speed in adaptive skills before attending, and he's trying to jumpstart that process by downloading and teaching himself NVDA. But, as someone who's never interacted with a screenreader, he's finding it a bit daunting. If anyone is a NVDA user who would be willing to be a sounding board or just give him some one-on-one directions as he tries to grapple with this whole new world, he would really appreciate it. Please contact me off-list. Thanks! From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Jan 28 22:13:33 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 22:13:33 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Judge: Lawsuit vs Uber over wheelchair access can continue; Uber 'public accommodation' under ADA, Cook County Record, Dec 18 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/511684799-judge-lawsuit-vs-uber-over-wheelchair-access-can-continue-uber-public-accommodation-under-ada Judge: Lawsuit vs Uber over wheelchair access can continue; Uber 'public accommodation' under ADA Cook County Record December 18 2018 By Jonathan Bilyk Saying he believed Uber should be considered a "public accommodation" under the Americans with Disabilities Act, a Chicago federal judge has allowed a lawsuit to continue against Uber over its lack of vehicles able to accommodate users with motorized wheelchairs. On Dec. 17, U.S. District Judge Manish Shah delivered a win to those suing the popular ride-hailing service, siding with them on several key points in their effort to force Uber to improve access for those with disabilities to the network of private vehicles millions access daily throughout the U.S. using Uber's smartphone app. "At this stage, plaintiffs have sufficiently alleged that Uber is a transportation provider, and it is equal access to that service (not a particular type of transportation) that Uber has blocked," Judge Shah wrote. "If plaintiffs establish liability, it will still remain to be seen whether the requested remedy - that Uber provide service to those who require wheelchair-accessible vehicles - is appropriate under the statute." The issue has been litigated before Shah in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois since 2016, when the lawsuit was first filed by advocacy group, Access Living of Metropolitan Chicago, and three individuals who either work or volunteer for Access Living. All three individuals rely on motorized wheelchairs for mobility, and all three asserted they have been either prevented from using Uber's service because Uber has no vehicles available near them able to also transport their motorized wheelchairs. The individual plaintiffs "want to use Uber ... and they have the smartphones and credit cards they need to do it. But none of them have downloaded the Uber app, because they believe that Uber does not provide equivalent services to people who use motorized wheelchairs," Judge Shah wrote in his decision. In the lawsuit, Access Living and the individual plaintiffs asked the court to declare Uber a public accommodation under the ADA law, and to order the company to ensure those with disabilities who rely on motorized wheelchairs always have access to an Uber driver with a vehicle capable of accommodating their needs, with he same response times, service areas, reservation capability and pricing as is available to those without such disabilities. In the lawsuit, Access Living said the city of Chicago has, to date, chosen not to include such accessibility requirements in city rules governing ride-hailing or "ridesharing" services, like Uber and Lyft. Access Living said Uber also has refused its requests to provide such services voluntarily. Under its business model, Uber does not own the vehicles its drivers use nor does it mandate when drivers must work. However, the company does set requirements for vehicles used by its drivers, including certain size and capacity requirements for certain levels of service, and requirements that the vehicles pass certain inspections. Uber also sets "minimum requirements for its drivers age, experience, licensing and driving records," the lawsuit said. Uber has asked the judge to dismiss the lawsuit, asserting the plaintiffs don't have standing to bring the action, and, because it doesn't own the vehicles its drivers use, it can't be considered a place of public accommodation. Rather, Uber said its smartphone-based ride-hailing service is more akin to online services like Expedia, which help people book hotel stays and airline tickets, but do not themselves own or operate the public accommodations. Further, Uber said the ADA does not require it to provide identical service to those with motorized wheelchairs, but only requires it to provide "access" to its "goods or services to people with disabilities." Judge Shah agreed that Access Living cannot advance allegations of "second-hand discrimination" under the ADA, as Uber did not do anything to discriminate against the organization itself. And the judge dismissed one of the individual plaintiffs, who said she only heard of Uber's lack of accessible vehicles from her husband. Both of those dismissals were without prejudice, meaning they are free to refile their complaints to attempt to remedy the shortcomings in their original complaints. Judge Shah, however, disagreed with much of the rest of Uber's arguments. The judge pointed to Uber's rules for drivers, saying the company exerts enough control over its drivers to "suggest that Uber drivers are not independent of Uber." "... Even if Uber drivers' own choices of vehicle are what cause plaintiffs' injuries, the cause can be attributed to Uber if its policies or actions have a determinative or coercive effect on the drivers' choices," Judge Shah wrote. "... And if Uber caused plaintiffs' injuries, then an injunction against Uber - one that directs Uber to use its alleged control over drivers to cure the inadequate supply of wheelchair-accessible rides - is plausibly likely to redress the injuries." The judge also particularly rejected Uber's arguments against treating it as a public accommodation under the ADA, saying he did not believe the definition of "public accommodation" must be attached to a "physical site." While conceding a number of federal appeals courts disagree with his position, Shah pointed to the position taken by the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago, in its 2001 decision in Morgan v. Joint Administration Board, which found: "What matters is that the good or service be offered to the public." That finding, Shah said, "was not a passing thought, but rather an explicit rejection of Uber's argument that a 'public accommodation' must be a physical site." Shah further rejected Uber's contention the ADA does not regulate the "content" of its services, meaning it cannot be expected to provide the same service to those with motorized wheelchairs as it does to other users. "The complaint does not allege that Uber refuses to sell its services to plaintiffs," Judge Shah wrote. "Plaintiffs could be saying that Uber's services are not as useful for them as they are for others due to a lack of available accessible vehicles - a challenge to the content of Uber's service. "But the complaint could also be read to allege that Uber has denied plaintiffs meaningful access to Uber's transportation services by providing so few accessible vehicles. Without accessible vehicles that can actually transport them, plaintiffs are shut out of the service, effectively turned away due to their disabilities." Judge Shah said two of the individual plaintiffs can continue with their request for injunctions requiring Uber to provide the accessible service they want. The plaintiffs are represented by attorneys Steven P. Blonder, Daniel A. Hantman and Jonathan L. Loew, of the firm of Much Shelist P.C., of Chicago. Uber is represented by attorneys Stephanie Schuster, Kristal D. Petrovich, Patrick A. Harvey and Anne Marie Estevez, of the firm of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius Llp, with offices in Chicago, Miami and Washington, D.C. From sanho817 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 22:20:01 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 16:20:01 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NVDA User Willing to Assist New Screenreader User? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25AF2BA3-B22F-4206-BB7A-17BD35A8AD2D@gmail.com> Hello, Messaging you my information now. Warmth, Sanho > On Jan 28, 2019, at 4:11 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've recently befriended someone in the D.C. area who is in the > process of losing his vision but is also trying to apply to law > school. He understands the importance of getting up to speed in > adaptive skills before attending, and he's trying to jumpstart that > process by downloading and teaching himself NVDA. But, as someone > who's never interacted with a screenreader, he's finding it a bit > daunting. If anyone is a NVDA user who would be willing to be a > sounding board or just give him some one-on-one directions as he tries > to grapple with this whole new world, he would really appreciate it. > Please contact me off-list. Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com From sanho817 at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 02:52:35 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3@gmail.com> All, Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? Warmth, Sanho From PChang at nfb.org Thu Jan 31 13:08:02 2019 From: PChang at nfb.org (Chang, Patti) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:08:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille In-Reply-To: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3@gmail.com> References: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am retired a couple of years but I used it in court on a regular basis. I did not have full renditions but used notes on all of my cases. Patti Chang Director of Outreach 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 (410) 659-9314, extension 2422 | pchang at nfb.org                                   The National Federation of the Blind is a community of members and friends who believe in the hopes and dreams of the nation's blind. Every day we work together to help blind people live the lives they want. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 8:53 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Braille All, Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pchang at nfb.org Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. From davant1958 at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 13:19:30 2019 From: davant1958 at gmail.com (davant1958 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 07:19:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille In-Reply-To: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3@gmail.com> References: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001d4b967$99d4d7e0$cd7e87a0$@gmail.com> Hello, I worked at the Public Defender office for 30 years doing appellate and post-conviction practice. There is no way I could have written briefs memoranda ETC or participated in oral arguments or hearings without using Braille. A Braille notetaker is certainly a good option, and if possible a way to print hardcopy Braille. Denise R. Avant, Esq President, National Federation of the Blind of Illinois 773-991-8050 Live the life you want. For more information about NFBI, Go to www.nfbofillinois.org. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 8:53 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: [blindlaw] Braille All, Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/davant1958%40gmail.com From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 14:11:18 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:11:18 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart Message-ID: Hi Sanho, You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful attorney without it. All the best, Ben ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 From: Sanho Steele-Louchart To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii All, Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? Warmth, Sanho From p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au Thu Jan 31 14:16:18 2019 From: p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au (Paul Harpur) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:16:18 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would love to be able to read braille but I cannot. I lost my eyesight at the age of 14, learned it a little when I was young and do not use it at all now. It would be helpful for speaking if I could read it but I manage with a screen reader. Dr Paul Harpur BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. Senior Lecturer   TC Beirne School of Law The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia   T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page  CRICOS code: 00025B Scientia ac Labore This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ben Fulton via BlindLaw Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 12:11 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Ben Fulton Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart Hi Sanho, You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful attorney without it. All the best, Ben ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 From: Sanho Steele-Louchart To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii All, Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? Warmth, Sanho _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Jan 31 16:32:03 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:32:03 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Job opening: Center for Civil & Human Rights at Gonzaga Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: 'Daquiz, Abigail - SOL' via Federal Attorneys Networking Group of Seattle [mailto:fangseattle at googlegroups.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:12 AM To: fangseattle at googlegroups.com Subject: [fangs] Job opening: Center for Civil & Human Rights at Gonzaga Law Please see the attached job description and this application link https://gonzaga.peopleadmin.com/postings/12779 for the job posting for the Assistant Director of the Center for Civil & Human Rights at Gonzaga University School of Law. I appreciate your sharing this with your networks. --- You are currently subscribed to atj-community as: daquiz.abigail at dol.gov. To access web features of this list, visit list.wsba.org/read/ Please send an email to the list administrator to update the list administrator with changes to your email address. -- -- You received this message because you are a federal agency attorney and subscribed to the FANGS group. To SEND A MESSAGE to this group, email to fangseattle at googlegroups.com. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, email fangseattle+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fangseattle?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Federal Attorneys Networking Group of Seattle" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fangseattle+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. 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URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Jan 31 18:04:38 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:04:38 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Diversity Notification In-Reply-To: References: <1502368616.131057.1548923793128.JavaMail.careerconnector@mgsapps.monster.com> Message-ID: From: Jobs [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia via Jobs Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 5:11 AM To: 'jobs at nfbnet.org' Cc: Maurer, Patricia Subject: [Jobs] FW: Diversity Notification -----Original Message----- From: careerconnector at monstergovt.com [mailto:careerconnector at monstergovt.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:37 AM To: Maurer, Patricia Subject: Diversity Notification National Federation of the Blind Sir/Madam Dear Sir/Madam: Your organization and its members might be interested in the following vacancy announcement: Announcement Number: ATTY-WTB-2019-019 Vacancy Description: Attorney-Advisor (General) Open Period: 01/31/2019 to 02/14/2019 Series/Grade: GS-0905B Attorney Advisor-13/14 Salary: (USD) $96,970 - (USD) $148,967 Hiring Agency: Federal Communications Commission Duty Location: Washington, DC, US For more information, please visit the vacancy announcement located at https://careerconnector.jobs.treas.gov/cc/fcc/vacancy/viewVacancyDetail!execute.hms?orgId=1751&jnum=173483. Thank you. Human Resources Management Federal Communications Commission -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From jtfetter at yahoo.com Thu Jan 31 19:23:49 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:23:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67efa935-0c56-84f8-6bf0-9da9bcce84d0@yahoo.com> I think Braille can be very useful in certain situations: interviewing clients, presumably taking depositions, trial work, proofreading in certain instances, etc. But I also think that blind attorneys who do not know Braille or for some other reason prefer a screen reader can perform these tasks competently. At least I see no reason why not. I prefer to use Braille when reading aloud, but I can make it work with Jaws, Voiceover, etc., if push comes to shove. My view is that it's good� to figure out which tool will work best for you in which situation, preferably before you have opposing counsel breathing down your neck, and use it. On 1/31/2019 9:16 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: > I would love to be able to read braille but I cannot. I lost my eyesight at the age of 14, learned it a little when I was young and do not use it at all now. It would be helpful for speaking if I could read it but I manage with a screen reader. > > > Dr Paul Harpur > BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) > Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. > Senior Lecturer > > TC Beirne School of Law > The University of Queensland > Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > > T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page > CRICOS code: 00025B > > > > > Scientia ac Labore > > This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ben Fulton via BlindLaw > Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 12:11 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Ben Fulton > Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart > > > Hi Sanho, > > You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful attorney without it. > > All the best, > Ben > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 > From: Sanho Steele-Louchart > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] Braille > Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > All, > > Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 19:34:20 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:34:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart In-Reply-To: <67efa935-0c56-84f8-6bf0-9da9bcce84d0@yahoo.com> References: <67efa935-0c56-84f8-6bf0-9da9bcce84d0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: My basic rule is screen reader in the office, Braille in court. When I have to move around and go back and forth from notes to discussions to presentations, using a speaker or an earbud is just not practical. I am in court almost every day now and would not, for example, want to try and do dozens of guilty pleas while also paying attention to JAWS for the files. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 31, 2019, at 2:23 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > I think Braille can be very useful in certain situations: interviewing clients, presumably taking depositions, trial work, proofreading in certain instances, etc. But I also think that blind attorneys who do not know Braille or for some other reason prefer a screen reader can perform these tasks competently. At least I see no reason why not. I prefer to use Braille when reading aloud, but I can make it work with Jaws, Voiceover, etc., if push comes to shove. My view is that it's good� to figure out which tool will work best for you in which situation, preferably before you have opposing counsel breathing down your neck, and use it. > > >> On 1/31/2019 9:16 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >> I would love to be able to read braille but I cannot. I lost my eyesight at the age of 14, learned it a little when I was young and do not use it at all now. It would be helpful for speaking if I could read it but I manage with a screen reader. >> >> >> Dr Paul Harpur >> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing) >> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York. >> Senior Lecturer >> TC Beirne School of Law >> The University of Queensland >> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >> CRICOS code: 00025B >> >> >> >> >> Scientia ac Labore >> >> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ben Fulton via BlindLaw >> Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 12:11 AM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Ben Fulton >> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart >> >> >> Hi Sanho, >> >> You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful attorney without it. >> All the best, >> Ben >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 >> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille >> Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> All, >> >> Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for notetaking purposes? >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 20:08:38 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 15:08:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare Message-ID: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, which is great for me because my school online copy has expired. However, when I downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation examples did not contain things like bold and itallic. This is the case even though I downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better for specific formatting characters. Does anybody know any solution to this? Is this typical of UEB files on Bookshare?. Sent from my iPhone From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 20:22:20 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 15:22:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare In-Reply-To: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> References: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know the answer to your question, but if your employer doesn't subscribe (which I assume you've checked), I think shelling out the $20 or whatever it is for a three-year subscription is definitely worth it for the search capacity and hyperlinks alone. On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, which > is great for me because my school online copy has expired. However, when I > downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation examples did not > contain things like bold and itallic. This is the case even though I > downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better for specific formatting > characters. Does anybody know any solution to this? Is this typical of UEB > files on Bookshare?. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 20:28:30 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 15:28:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart In-Reply-To: References: <67efa935-0c56-84f8-6bf0-9da9bcce84d0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use Braille every day. All of my proofreading, nitting, and editing is done with Braille. Incidentally, i also use my braille display to figure out what's going on when Jaws inevitably stops speaking, since usually the display still works. But I also learned Braille when I was 3 and used it as my only means of reading all the way up through college. My general approach is that you should have as many tools in your tool kit as is humanly possible to get the job done. For instance, last night I learned that you can customize Jaws to have a differently-pitched voice when it encounters bold or italics font. I never knew that existed, because I use Braille for that purpose. But I should know how to do it and become proficient at it, just in case my Braille display ever goes down or I've forgotten it, or some other such scenario. The same is true the other way around. If Braille isn't your strong suit, still utilize it sometimes, because you never know when it might be the best way of doing something. On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > My basic rule is screen reader in the office, Braille in court. When I have > to move around and go back and forth from notes to discussions to > presentations, using a speaker or an earbud is just not practical. I am in > court almost every day now and would not, for example, want to try and do > dozens of guilty pleas while also paying attention to JAWS for the files. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 31, 2019, at 2:23 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> I think Braille can be very useful in certain situations: interviewing >> clients, presumably taking depositions, trial work, proofreading in >> certain instances, etc. But I also think that blind attorneys who do not >> know Braille or for some other reason prefer a screen reader can perform >> these tasks competently. At least I see no reason why not. I prefer to use >> Braille when reading aloud, but I can make it work with Jaws, Voiceover, >> etc., if push comes to shove. My view is that it's good� to figure out >> which tool will work best for you in which situation, preferably before >> you have opposing counsel breathing down your neck, and use it. >> >> >>> On 1/31/2019 9:16 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I would love to be able to read braille but I cannot. I lost my eyesight >>> at the age of 14, learned it a little when I was young and do not use it >>> at all now. It would be helpful for speaking if I could read it but I >>> manage with a screen reader. >>> >>> >>> Dr Paul Harpur >>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia >>> (non-practicing) >>> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt >>> Institute, SU, New York. >>> Senior Lecturer >>> TC Beirne School of Law >>> The University of Queensland >>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >>> CRICOS code: 00025B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientia ac Labore >>> >>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email >>> do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ben >>> Fulton via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 12:11 AM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Ben Fulton >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart >>> >>> >>> Hi Sanho, >>> >>> You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost >>> my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was >>> 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach >>> myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good >>> supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a >>> long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for >>> everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you >>> that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear >>> noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear >>> if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable >>> with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if >>> you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful >>> attorney without it. >>> All the best, >>> Ben >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 >>> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille >>> Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> All, >>> >>> Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for >>> notetaking purposes? >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net Thu Jan 31 20:29:41 2019 From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 15:29:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01d4b9a3$b4ddf580$1e99e080$@comcast.net> You could also subscribe to bluebook.com for $50 for three years, And you know you will get the latest and greatest, Plus it is the bluepages and bluetables in it; Mike mcglashon Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net Ph: 618 783 9331 -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:22 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare I don't know the answer to your question, but if your employer doesn't subscribe (which I assume you've checked), I think shelling out the $20 or whatever it is for a three-year subscription is definitely worth it for the search capacity and hyperlinks alone. On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, > which is great for me because my school online copy has expired. > However, when I downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation > examples did not contain things like bold and itallic. This is the > case even though I downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better > for specific formatting characters. Does anybody know any solution to > this? Is this typical of UEB files on Bookshare?. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co mcast.net From r.g.munro at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 21:20:34 2019 From: r.g.munro at gmail.com (Robert Munro) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:20:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart In-Reply-To: References: <67efa935-0c56-84f8-6bf0-9da9bcce84d0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39E81396-5CB6-43A4-A29B-8B5548E18633@gmail.com> I often type in braille – – especially on my phone When I have no keyboard. Onward! Rob > On Jan 31, 2019, at 15:28, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > I use Braille every day. All of my proofreading, nitting, and editing > is done with Braille. Incidentally, i also use my braille display to > figure out what's going on when Jaws inevitably stops speaking, since > usually the display still works. But I also learned Braille when I > was 3 and used it as my only means of reading all the way up through > college. My general approach is that you should have as many tools in > your tool kit as is humanly possible to get the job done. For > instance, last night I learned that you can customize Jaws to have a > differently-pitched voice when it encounters bold or italics font. I > never knew that existed, because I use Braille for that purpose. But > I should know how to do it and become proficient at it, just in case > my Braille display ever goes down or I've forgotten it, or some other > such scenario. The same is true the other way around. If Braille > isn't your strong suit, still utilize it sometimes, because you never > know when it might be the best way of doing something. > >> On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> My basic rule is screen reader in the office, Braille in court. When I have >> to move around and go back and forth from notes to discussions to >> presentations, using a speaker or an earbud is just not practical. I am in >> court almost every day now and would not, for example, want to try and do >> dozens of guilty pleas while also paying attention to JAWS for the files. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 31, 2019, at 2:23 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> I think Braille can be very useful in certain situations: interviewing >>> clients, presumably taking depositions, trial work, proofreading in >>> certain instances, etc. But I also think that blind attorneys who do not >>> know Braille or for some other reason prefer a screen reader can perform >>> these tasks competently. At least I see no reason why not. I prefer to use >>> Braille when reading aloud, but I can make it work with Jaws, Voiceover, >>> etc., if push comes to shove. My view is that it's good� to figure out >>> which tool will work best for you in which situation, preferably before >>> you have opposing counsel breathing down your neck, and use it. >>> >>> >>>> On 1/31/2019 9:16 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I would love to be able to read braille but I cannot. I lost my eyesight >>>> at the age of 14, learned it a little when I was young and do not use it >>>> at all now. It would be helpful for speaking if I could read it but I >>>> manage with a screen reader. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Paul Harpur >>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia >>>> (non-practicing) >>>> Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt >>>> Institute, SU, New York. >>>> Senior Lecturer >>>> TC Beirne School of Law >>>> The University of Queensland >>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia >>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 >>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page >>>> CRICOS code: 00025B >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Scientia ac Labore >>>> >>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the >>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of >>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any >>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is >>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and >>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email >>>> do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ben >>>> Fulton via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 12:11 AM >>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> Cc: Ben Fulton >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille (Sanho Steele-Louchart >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Sanho, >>>> >>>> You will likely get a lot of different responses to this question. I lost >>>> my vision later in life. I didn't start using a screen reader until I was >>>> 28. I was not taught braille in school, and I had to mostly self teach >>>> myself, because the remote location where I was living did not have good >>>> supports. I've never advanced my skills to the point where I could read a >>>> long document, and I just use it for labelling. I use JAWS for >>>> everything, and it is a solution that works for me. Many will tell you >>>> that braille is very useful, especially because it is silent. I wear >>>> noise cancelling headphones, and I will put one of the phones off my ear >>>> if I need to hear the court while taking notes. If you are comfortable >>>> with braille it will likely be an asset, but I wouldn't worry about it if >>>> you don't feel comfortable with braille, I think you can be a wonderful >>>> attorney without it. >>>> All the best, >>>> Ben >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 20:52:35 -0600 >>>> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart >>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Braille >>>> Message-ID: <9FBDD741-68E8-49E4-AD9A-454BF5D2A8D3 at gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Good evening. Do you use braille on a regular basis in trials or for >>>> notetaking purposes? >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/r.g.munro%40gmail.com From kelbycarlson at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 22:38:16 2019 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com (kelby carlson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:38:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare In-Reply-To: <005e01d4b9a3$b4ddf580$1e99e080$@comcast.net> References: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> <005e01d4b9a3$b4ddf580$1e99e080$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6BA6B8B9-1D8C-437A-BB23-028A66C73718@gmail.com> The one my school used is http://legalbluebook.com/ Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 31, 2019, at 3:29 PM, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw wrote: > > You could also subscribe to bluebook.com for $50 for three years, > And you know you will get the latest and greatest, > Plus it is the bluepages and bluetables in it; > > > Mike mcglashon > Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net > Ph: 618 783 9331 > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:22 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare > > I don't know the answer to your question, but if your employer doesn't > subscribe (which I assume you've checked), I think shelling out the > $20 or whatever it is for a three-year subscription is definitely worth it > for the search capacity and hyperlinks alone. > >> On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, >> which is great for me because my school online copy has expired. >> However, when I downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation >> examples did not contain things like bold and itallic. This is the >> case even though I downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better >> for specific formatting characters. Does anybody know any solution to >> this? Is this typical of UEB files on Bookshare?. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 22:58:20 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:58:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare In-Reply-To: <6BA6B8B9-1D8C-437A-BB23-028A66C73718@gmail.com> References: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> <005e01d4b9a3$b4ddf580$1e99e080$@comcast.net> <6BA6B8B9-1D8C-437A-BB23-028A66C73718@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kelby, Many employers subscribe to the online Bluebook. Have you asked yours? On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: > The one my school used is > http://legalbluebook.com/ > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 31, 2019, at 3:29 PM, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> You could also subscribe to bluebook.com for $50 for three years, >> And you know you will get the latest and greatest, >> Plus it is the bluepages and bluetables in it; >> >> >> Mike mcglashon >> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net >> Ph: 618 783 9331 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:22 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare >> >> I don't know the answer to your question, but if your employer doesn't >> subscribe (which I assume you've checked), I think shelling out the >> $20 or whatever it is for a three-year subscription is definitely worth >> it >> for the search capacity and hyperlinks alone. >> >>> On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, >>> which is great for me because my school online copy has expired. >>> However, when I downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation >>> examples did not contain things like bold and itallic. This is the >>> case even though I downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better >>> for specific formatting characters. Does anybody know any solution to >>> this? Is this typical of UEB files on Bookshare?. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From mnowicki4 at icloud.com Thu Jan 31 23:25:50 2019 From: mnowicki4 at icloud.com (Michal Nowicki) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:25:50 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare In-Reply-To: <6BA6B8B9-1D8C-437A-BB23-028A66C73718@gmail.com> References: <5625E856-549C-451F-B954-A6306FE272C9@gmail.com> <005e01d4b9a3$b4ddf580$1e99e080$@comcast.net> <6BA6B8B9-1D8C-437A-BB23-028A66C73718@gmail.com> Message-ID: That’s the official one. The website explicitly warns that other versions may be inaccurate or incomplete. Michal Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: kelby carlson via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:39 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: kelby carlson Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare The one my school used is http://legalbluebook.com/ Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 31, 2019, at 3:29 PM, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw wrote: > > You could also subscribe to bluebook.com for $50 for three years, > And you know you will get the latest and greatest, > Plus it is the bluepages and bluetables in it; > > > Mike mcglashon > Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net > Ph: 618 783 9331 > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:22 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Bluebook on Bookshare > > I don't know the answer to your question, but if your employer doesn't > subscribe (which I assume you've checked), I think shelling out the > $20 or whatever it is for a three-year subscription is definitely worth it > for the search capacity and hyperlinks alone. > >> On 1/31/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw wrote: >> I just realized that the 20th edition of the Bluebook is on Bookshare, >> which is great for me because my school online copy has expired. >> However, when I downloaded a BRF version, I noticed that the citation >> examples did not contain things like bold and itallic. This is the >> case even though I downloaded the book in UEB, which is a lot better >> for specific formatting characters. Does anybody know any solution to >> this? Is this typical of UEB files on Bookshare?. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mnowicki4%40icloud.com