[blindlaw] Seeking guidance

Fri Jan 4 02:39:32 UTC 2019

Laura,

I definitely try and do this. I tend to think it is better to address these issues head-on than to avoid them and hope the employer relies primarily on my record. I mostly applied for public sector jobs, s,I ca't really predict how firms might have responded to that approach.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Angie Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Laura, you articulated my thoughts. I have asked similar questions during job interviews and have gotten similar responses. Both of the firms where I have worked answered those questions with something like, "we assume based on your record and resume that you can do the job." Not every firm responded this way. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing, Rahul.  I partially agree with him, but I think he
>> overestimates how much a good resume and transcript translates into a
>> thought that the student has "clearly demonstrated" his intellect. I
>> don't think that's really how it works.  At least, that's certainly
>> not how my OCI interviews worked. LOL.  I think that, even when
>> presented with positive evidence of a blind person's capability, the
>> tendency is still to overlook it or to think, probably unconsciously,
>> that firm life is just different, or that perhaps the school was
>> lenient (as say, the employer himself might be tempted to be lenient
>> with a disabled person he didn't think could really hack it).  I know
>> this is a hot take that many might not agree with, but what I began to
>> do was, at the end of the interview when they said "do you have any
>> questions?" I would say something like "actually, I was just wondering
>> if you'd like me to explain the technology I use that allows me to
>> succeed and do bluebooking on the law review."  This really caught
>> people off guard.  Only one firm said "no, we'd rather not talk about
>> that." (you might be shocked to hear that I didn't get a callback from
>> them).  But it worked.  They almost never asked follow-up questions,
>> probably for fear of running afoul of the ADA which is rather sad, but
>> I did get a few "Oh! So you are able to Bluebook?" Or "Wow, I didn't
>> realize that Westlaw was completely accessible!" and other similar
>> type things that without question would have impacted their decision
>> had they not gotten out in the open.
>> 
>> Just my thoughts.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 1/3/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I have complete confidence that top students with visible
>>> disabilities--it's all about appearances--will find jobs. I'm far less
>>> confident that they will find jobs in their preferred market/region. The
>>> key, I think, is finding that first employer who will give you a chance,
>>> whereupon you will either succeed or fail by your own effort/merit. It
>>> would, however, be nice to live in a world where top credentials
>>> resulted in being heavily recruited, disability or no. We're not there
>>> yet, and  we have a lot of work to do to get there. I hope this will be
>>> somewhat less of a problem, as we  do the very things (e.g. win at
>>> trial, handle exhibits, etc) that some employers may doubt our ability
>>> to do, no matter how good our resumes look and how charming we are in
>>> interviews.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 1/3/2019 3:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I thought it would be useful to share a set of insights which I have
>>>> acquired through my conversation with Judge David Szumowski, a former
>>>> court of arraignment judge who is blind. When I had interviewed him
>>>> last year, he had stated that you will do will in your legal career if
>>>> you were a top student in law school, whether or not you have a
>>>> disability and essentially made it appear that having a disability is
>>>> a nonissue in today's day and age. I put to him the experiences of
>>>> James, Laura and others, who've acknowledged that discrimination is
>>>> still alive and kicking, albeit not in a very overt form. Here's what
>>>> his reply was:
>>>> 
>>>> "I've given some thought to the issue presented in #6 [point 6 of
>>>> James' email about not getting recruited by even a single Ohio law
>>>> firm despite excellent grades] and may be reassessing my position
>>>> here.
>>>> 
>>>> I do think top students from top schools will more likely succeed with
>>>> a disability.  I think this primarily because they have already proven
>>>> they can
>>>> succeed by being at a top school and doing well there.
>>>> 
>>>> I do recognize that humans have flaws and can be narrow-minded on a
>>>> variety of measures.  Certainly disability is a factor where potential
>>>> employers can
>>>> choose to either overlook the obvious disability and focus on whether
>>>> the candidate can be a productive fit for the business-in this case
>>>> law and billable
>>>> hours, or public sector work.  If the employer is honest with
>>>> him/herself, and somewhat enlightened, they will try to make it work
>>>> if the candidate has
>>>> other requisite skills and brain power.
>>>> 
>>>> Naturally, Not all business/firm opportunities will have the proper
>>>> focus.  So, I think these fortunate candidates need to not only sell
>>>> their skills,
>>>> but also need to be prepared to deflect the hidden, or maybe open bias
>>>> against hiring the disabled person.  I'm not prepared to say how that
>>>> should be
>>>> done, but not anticipating the hesitancy is a mistake.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I think gaining as much experience prior to the job interview is
>>>> essential.  One needs a track record to point out where he/she has
>>>> excelled in a variety
>>>> of work situations where the disability was not an issue.  Support
>>>> from those who observe the success would be very helpful in achieving
>>>> a better outcome.
>>>> 
>>>> Having said this, I am not saying it will be easy for the top people.
>>>> Sure, America has the ADA and that is helpful and makes employers
>>>> aware of the need
>>>> to, in theory, set aside prejudices in the name of fairness.  We know
>>>> that is not always going to happen.  The public sector is, in my
>>>> experience, more
>>>> accommodating in this regard.  The private sector is aware and as more
>>>> disabled people get jobs, prove themselves, make their success known
>>>> within employment
>>>> circles , and in the public generally, then awareness becomes more
>>>> widespread.  This helps other opportunities open up, or at least I
>>>> would like to think
>>>> so.
>>>> 
>>>> Often, the disabled may have to bite the bullet and take on the effort
>>>> alone and do his/her best.
>>>> 
>>>> Much of what I have said so far also applies to those who are not top
>>>> students or from top schools.  They will not have the credentials of
>>>> the schools
>>>> going for them.  So, it will be harder and the success rate is likely,
>>>> unfortunately, to be less.  I can only say that persistence, hard-work
>>>> when opportunity
>>>> does present itself, and a positive attitude helps to show potential
>>>> employers that the candidate is not giving up.  It always helps to
>>>> make contacts and
>>>> let others in the profession know about you, your legal interests,
>>>> skills, and how you actually do your work.  Let's face it,
>>>> non-disabled rarely think
>>>> about how they would do anything with a given disability.  So, when
>>>> they meet you, they can't imagine how to do it with that specific
>>>> disability. This
>>>> is the big obstacle  for anyone-changing their thinking.
>>>> 
>>>> It isn't easy, and you can't quit trying.  I know America may have a
>>>> better opportunity than other countries, but I am not sure of that
>>>> statement.  The
>>>> disabled are a vocal group in America and some disabilities are more
>>>> vocal than others.  I think the blind and the wheelchair bound are the
>>>> most well-known
>>>> for fighting for equality in hiring and rights.
>>>> 
>>>> The battle will be more successful when the business communities
>>>> including the legal profession, recognize ability, not disability.
>>>> 
>>>> I was not a top student and not sure where Denver School of Law
>>>> ranked, but I struggled early with blindness, found other work and did
>>>> well, had early
>>>> struggles with the law business before catching some breaks, taking
>>>> advantage of o[opportunities, and being in the right place at the
>>>> right time with the
>>>> right politics and professional backing to land well for a successful
>>>> career.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm blessed and grateful.  The publicity I had over 20 years has, I
>>>> hope, opened some doors for others to more easily find success.  The
>>>> woman working
>>>> for Justice Thomas is a great story and that will help others in my
>>>> opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> Let me end this with a simple observation.  We all can't do what we
>>>> think we would like to do.  There are several reasons that some
>>>> opportunities don't
>>>> work out for us.  Skill or lack thereof, intellectual capacity,
>>>> financial wherewithal, physical ability, or even just simple luck. We
>>>> just do the best
>>>> we can with what we have.  Life is like a card game-you may just have
>>>> to play the cards you are dealt.
>>>> 
>>>> Often, the disabled have to deal their own hand in life and that may
>>>> include borrowing for school, borrowing to work alone, and facing the
>>>> daunting obstacle
>>>> of making a living in a tough business.  The legal education  is
>>>> expensive, the work often grueling and financial reward marginal.
>>>> Today, there are more
>>>> lawyers here than there is work, so many struggle finding suitable
>>>> employment even when not disabled.  It is a tough decision as to
>>>> whether to enter the
>>>> profession at all these day."
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Rahul
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 28/12/2018, Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> I agree with Jim's conclusion. If you have any uncertainty or merely a
>>>>> vague
>>>>> interest in a legal career, I would advise against law school. However,
>>>>> if
>>>>> you have a very specific goal which requires a law degree, I would say go
>>>>> for it.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim McCarthy
>>>>> via
>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:30 AM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy <jmccarthy at mdtap.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am going to piggyback off what Laura said. I went to law school, but it
>>>>> has been several years ago at this point so other commenters, most who
>>>>> have
>>>>> commented, are closer to that experience. I kind of enjoyed law school in
>>>>> a
>>>>> tortured manner. What I mean is that I really liked spending time with a
>>>>> collection of very bright people, matching wits in writing and orally
>>>>> with
>>>>> them, and acquiring a knowledge base that applies to almost everything we
>>>>> do
>>>>> in some way. I came out with lots of debt, which you say you are prepared
>>>>> to
>>>>> do. I never had a law job and haven't had any position that required a
>>>>> law
>>>>> degree. I've made a decent living and believe my law degree may have been
>>>>> a
>>>>> plus factor in some cases for positions I received, but it never has been
>>>>> required. An MPA would have been much less costly. I will pay for law
>>>>> school
>>>>> until I am 61 years old, though I make enough that those payments are not
>>>>> terrible. Today's cost is greater than mine was though and I was younger
>>>>> than you are now when I made the choice. Many who take on something like
>>>>> law
>>>>> school once they have families really struggle with the time commitment
>>>>> and
>>>>> how to balance family and such. One of the things I appreciated about my
>>>>> experience is that my only responsibilities were me and later my dog
>>>>> guide.
>>>>> Completing law school proved a great confidence boost for me at a period
>>>>> having one was important. I myopically focused on law school as that next
>>>>> step though and in retrospect, there probably were other directions that
>>>>> would have worked better in my life. I think there will be lots of
>>>>> occasions, if you go the law rout, when you find yourself wondering if
>>>>> that
>>>>> was really what you meant to do. I'd say that if you are ambivalent about
>>>>> it, take a different direction.
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Jim McCarthy
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura
>>>>> Wolk
>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:14 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since Kelby mentioned me, I figured I'd pop in with my two cents,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> because I fall somewhere between the two of you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think anyone should go to law school unless he has a  pretty darn
>>>>> good idea of what, exactly, he plans to do at the end of the day.
>>>>> Obviously plans can change and life can intervene, but I think that if
>>>>> you
>>>>> apply to law school thinking "I want to be a lawyer" with nothing gmore
>>>>> specific than that, or if you go in saying "I could see myself in
>>>>> government
>>>>> or maybe a small firm or maybe doing civil rights or maybe, maybe..."
>>>>> you're
>>>>> doing it wrong. I think this largely for the reasons that Kelby has
>>>>> articulated--it's not worth the debt, time, bad job prospects, and
>>>>> psychological fatigue of battling discrimination, especially if one
>>>>> already
>>>>> has gainful employment and is supporting a family. In short, the J.D. is
>>>>> a
>>>>> professional, practical degree, and a person should have a professional,
>>>>> practical reason for getting one.
>>>>> Basically, I don't buy into the "follow your heart" mentality.  no
>>>>> offense
>>>>> to anyone who has written advocating for that, but I just disagree.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I also largely do agree that one should not attend law school unless one
>>>>> gets an offer from at least a top 50 law school but preferably top 25.
>>>>> There are reasons to deviate from this.  For instance, if the school you
>>>>> are
>>>>> aiming for places really well in that specific local area or region, go
>>>>> for
>>>>> it. Duquesne and Pitt law schools, for instance, can get top ranking
>>>>> students great jobs in Pittsburgh. So if a person feels committed to
>>>>> being
>>>>> in PGH, they might be a good fit for a prospective student. Otherwise,
>>>>> probably best to save your time and money.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I actually deviated from this presumption myself. Notre Dame moves in and
>>>>> out of the top 25 for a number of reasons (many of which, according to my
>>>>> totally biased opinion, reflect how inaccurate the ranking system is). It
>>>>> was a hard decision, but I turned down better financial packages from
>>>>> more
>>>>> highly ranked schools because receiving Catholic formation alongside my
>>>>> legal education was extremely important to me, and I wanted to learn from
>>>>> folks who view originalism and textualism as legitimate modes of
>>>>> interpretation instead of something to laugh away in a footnote. It was
>>>>> one
>>>>> of the best decisions I ever made, but if I had just picked the most
>>>>> highly
>>>>> ranked place I got into because I had only a broad sense of what I wanted
>>>>> to
>>>>> do with the law instead of a better sense of my specific vocation, I
>>>>> would
>>>>> never have ended up beginning my career in such a blessed way.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lastly, as to James point, so much of starting one's legal career is
>>>>> about
>>>>> who you know, disabled or otherwise. I'd be happy to speak more about my
>>>>> experiences on this specific topic off-list, but here all I will say is
>>>>> that, depending on one's specific goals and desires, having a team of
>>>>> people
>>>>> in your corner isn't just helpful, it's 100% necessary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Laura
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 12/26/18, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Good evening:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at
>>>>>> a fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus  successful job
>>>>>> experience may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities
>>>>>> for promotion, including promotion to high level appointed executive
>>>>> positions.  A law
>>>>>> degree might, but would not necessarily   enhance those opportunities.
>>>>>> However, a law degree  could open opportunities for legal employment
>>>>>> in either the public or private sector, including enhancing
>>>>>> opportunities to provide policy and legislative consulting services.
>>>>>> Although I practiced law in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful
>>>>>> in assisting my employer to address office management issues and
>>>>>> managing the work of consultants and other contractors. If I can be of
>>>>>> further help please don't hesitate to contact me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Luis
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura
>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM
>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Where to start?
>>>>>>   First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful
>>>>>> responses.  In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks
>>>>>> outlined, I suffer from a large measure of ambivalence.  Presumably
>>>>>> the only way to know for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake
>>>>>> and complete the process.
>>>>>> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long.  My
>>>>>> gratitude to those who devote time to reading.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center
>>>>>> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western
>>>>>> NY.  I was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same
>>>>> position.
>>>>>> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in
>>>>>> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility
>>>>>> and pays a wage commensurate with my ability.  I believe that kind of
>>>>>> work will never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so
>>>>>> many of us captive.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   I plan to apply to one and only one school.  Because that is the
>>>>>> precise number of law schools which are at arms length.  Because I
>>>>>> have young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of
>>>>>> this questionable goal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no
>>>>>> student debt.  This is thanks to the state agency and its support.
>>>>>> That said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans.  We own a home
>>>>>> and have other foundations laid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a
>>>>>> firm.  I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope
>>>>>> is that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably
>>>>>> high level to start.  So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree
>>>>>> get me closer to the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I
>>>>>> am interested?  Or, would diving right into civil service exams and a
>>>>>> low level position ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work?
>>>>>> Either way once I finish this masters I will be committing to at least
>>>>>> full time work.  Directly in the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls
>>>>>> of UB law school.  By the way, its a comfort to know that UB is in
>>>>>> good company accepting the GRE.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Maura
>>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real
>>>>>>> question is,
>>>>>> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school
>>>>>> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse.
>>>>>>> A few points:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance
>>>>>> programs for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the
>>>>>> application process knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in
>>>>>> tuition.  I got an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to
>>>>>> write home about and landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio
>>>>>> State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but good for me for a
>>>>>> variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets, albeit a bit
>>>>>> less hair than I did before starting.
>>>>>>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games
>>>>>> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to
>>>>>> my knowledge.
>>>>>>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> just about every other intense form of career preparation.
>>>>>>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton
>>>>>> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it.
>>>>>>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>> accepts the GRE.
>>>>>>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20.
>>>>>> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even
>>>>>> outside of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and
>>>>>> continues to be, employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10%
>>>>>> of my class at Ohio State, was on law review, and checked all the
>>>>>> other boxes that big firms like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio
>>>>>> wanted me? That would be zero. But I landed a job at a great firm, and
>>>>>> although I don't like talking salary, let's say it's higher than $35k.
>>>>>>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless
>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers.
>>>>>> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement
>>>>>> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write
>>>>>> that school off and move on.
>>>>>>>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very
>>>>>>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I
>>>>>>>> will explain why at some length.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least
>>>>>>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to
>>>>>>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.)
>>>>>>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and
>>>>>>>> there aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening
>>>>>>>> student, you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may
>>>>>>>> be able to get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am
>>>>>>>> not sure how your vocational rehabilitation handles career
>>>>>>>> transitions like the one you envision. It is still likely, however,
>>>>>>>> that you will be taking  on a considerable amount of debt. This debt
>>>>>>>> is probably going to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an
>>>>>>>> extremely high-paying
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were
>>>>>>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not
>>>>>>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect
>>>>>>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best
>>>>>>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and
>>>>>>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with
>>>>>>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that
>>>>>>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is
>>>>>>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered
>>>>>>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with
>>>>>>>> accommodations even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to
>>>>>>>> grant more and better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I
>>>>>>>> can say this with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is
>>>>>>>> administered by the
>>>>>>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to
>>>>>>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend
>>>>>>>> several months trying to get accommodations.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a
>>>>>>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law
>>>>>>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus
>>>>>>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.)
>>>>>>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really
>>>>>>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious
>>>>>>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given
>>>>>>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things.
>>>>>>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should
>>>>>>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your
>>>>>>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam.
>>>>>>>> Second, all law school exams and some law school papers are graded
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>> curve.
>>>>>>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively,
>>>>>>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently
>>>>>>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about
>>>>>>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he
>>>>>>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are
>>>>>>>> not in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job
>>>>>>>> that will give you good experience will be extremely difficult
>>>>>>>> unless you are fabulous at networking.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are
>>>>>>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited
>>>>>>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want
>>>>>>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying
>>>>>>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams.
>>>>>>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book,
>>>>>>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the
>>>>>>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the
>>>>>>>> outline.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this
>>>>>>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting
>>>>>>>> even more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will
>>>>>>>> never be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor
>>>>>>>> grammatical errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's
>>>>>>>> abhorrent footnote interface appeals to you, than journal is
>>>>>>>> definitely for you.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience
>>>>>>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who
>>>>>>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law
>>>>>>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during
>>>>>>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming
>>>>>>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships,
>>>>>>>> internships are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if
>>>>>>>> you are going to get the most out of your legal education. You will
>>>>>>>> need to find an internship that will actually give you meaningful
>>>>>>>> work, which is harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to
>>>>>>>> find one that pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of
>>>>>>>> internship is a summer associate position between your second and
>>>>>>>> third years of school, but this is a full-time position that will be
>>>>>>>> harder to arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you
>>>>>>>> aren't extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships,
>>>>>>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent
>>>>>>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will
>>>>>>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will
>>>>>>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from
>>>>>>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will
>>>>>>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because
>>>>>>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious
>>>>>>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their
>>>>>>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one.
>>>>>>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law
>>>>>>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will
>>>>>>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you
>>>>>>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless
>>>>>>>> you have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your
>>>>>>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the
>>>>>>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an
>>>>>>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know
>>>>>>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would
>>>>>>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get
>>>>>>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice?
>>>>>>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot
>>>>>>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan
>>>>>>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice
>>>>>>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a
>>>>>>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say
>>>>>>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious
>>>>>>>> school and procure good internships (which may not pay) every
>>>>>>>> semester of law school? If your answer to any of those questions is
>>>>>>>> no, you should not go.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is
>>>>>>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools
>>>>>>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to
>>>>>>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and
>>>>>>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not
>>>>>>>> pay well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because
>>>>>>>> the legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on
>>>>>>>> television.
>>>>>>>> This video is essentially accurate:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there
>>>>>>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps
>>>>>>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence
>>>>>>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a
>>>>>>>> lot of people will not.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Kelby Carlson
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me.  In some ways, I am
>>>>>>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own.  However, I
>>>>>>>>> have in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals
>>>>>>>>> in practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going
>>>>>>>>> to law school.  Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional
>>>>>>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC
>>>>>>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable.  I am currently in
>>>>>>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters
>>>>>>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current
>>>>>>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I
>>>>>>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent
>>>>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>> at the collegiate level.  I definitely have an interest in pursuing
>>>>>> law but the
>>>>>>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be
>>>>>>>>> done while still working?  Or does one need to plan on just doing
>>>>>>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years?  Any advice
>>>>>>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and
>>>>>>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately.
>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry <b.s.spiry at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Greetings Maura.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may
>>>>>>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the
>>>>>>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already
>>>>>>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and
>>>>>>>>> plenty of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was
>>>>>>>>> telling me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my
>>>>> decision.
>>>>>>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to
>>>>>>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's  what is right
>>>>>>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you
>>>>>>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be
>>>>>>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind
>>>>>>>>> lawyers).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others
>>>>>>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this,  yeah,
>>>>>>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls
>>>>>>>>> that will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know
>>>>>>>>> if you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know
>>>>>>>>> it's right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find
>>>>>>>>> your way through some unique challenges. Follow your heart.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Bill Spiry
>>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>>>>>> Spiry Law LLC
>>>>>>>>> (541) 600-3301
>>>>>>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com
>>>>>>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik
>>>>>>>>> Weihenmayer
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does
>>>>>>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be
>>>>>>>>> construed as an acceptance of your case in the absence of a formal
>>>>>>>>> attorney-client agreement. This Email message may contain
>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information which is
>>>>>>>>> (a) ATTORNEY - CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION, WORK PRODUCT,
>>>>>>>>> PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM
>>>>>>>>> DISCLOSURE, and (b) intended only for the use of the intended
>>>>>>>>> recipeient(s) named herein. If you are not the intended recipient
>>>>>>>>> of this Email or the person responsible for delivering it to the
>>>>>>>>> intended recipient, please be aware that reading, copying, or
>>>>>>>>> distributing this message is prohibited. If you have received this
>>>>>>>>> Email message by mistake, I would appreciate it if you would reply
>>>>>>>>> to let us know and then delete the message and any attachments
>>>>>>>>> completely from your computer system. I do not waive any client's
>>>>>> privilege by misdelivered email.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Be aware that Email transmissions may not be secure. Third parties
>>>>>>>>> can and do intercept email communication.  By using email to
>>>>>>>>> communicate with Spiry law LLC, you assume the risk that any
>>>>>>>>> confidential or privileged information may be intercepted and
>>>>>>>>> viewed by
>>>>>> third persons.
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura
>>>>>>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you
>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful?
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it.
>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>> As to your questions:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high
>>>>>>>>>> level of
>>>>>>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations
>>>>>>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT
>>>>>>>>> requires either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There
>>>>>>>>> are no accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace
>>>>>>>>> this section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic
>>>>>>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if
>>>>>>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE,
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering.
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting
>>>>>>>>>> transition. All
>>>>>>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years
>>>>>>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure
>>>>>>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet,
>>>>>>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways,
>>>>>>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be
>>>>>>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic
>>>>>>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top
>>>>>>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong
>>>>>>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>> goals.
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else.
>>>>>>>>>> You'll
>>>>>>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The
>>>>>>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can
>>>>>>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law
>>>>>>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash
>>>>>>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a
>>>>>>>>> courtesy
>>>>>> they could approve or deny at will.
>>>>>>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing.
>>>>>>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much
>>>>>>>>>> there other
>>>>>>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing
>>>>>>>>> as you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early
>>>>>>>>> 20's and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> "non-traditional" path.
>>>>>>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law
>>>>>>>>> school were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In
>>>>>>>>> fact, these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane
>>>>>>>>> through what would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years.
>>>>>>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur.  While maybe not practical, your words ring
>>>>>> true.
>>>>>>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and
>>>>>>>>>>>> take the
>>>>>>>>> plunge.  Go for it!
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International
>>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished
>>>>>>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University.  I will let others give more
>>>>>>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>>>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scholar/International
>>>>>>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>>>>>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB
>>>>>>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS
>>>>>>>>>>>> code: 00025B
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The
>>>>>>>>> University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are
>>>>>>>>> notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or
>>>>>>>>> photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this
>>>>>>>>> email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly
>>>>>>>>> stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the
>>>>>>>>> official position of The
>>>>>> University of Queensland.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal
>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>>>> interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where
>>>>>>>>> please point the way.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the
>>>>>>>>>>>> influence of a
>>>>>>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next
>>>>>>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More
>>>>>>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this
>>>>>>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email
>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I
>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly make
>>>>>>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what
>>>>>>>>> kinds of supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of
>>>>>>>>> which entrance test should I take?  I recently learned that The
>>>>>>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in
>>>>>>>>> addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA
>>>>>>>>> program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am not sure which
>>>>>>>>> test
>>>>>> is more friendly to the blind.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question
>>>>>>>>>>>> is, are
>>>>>>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from
>>>>>>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful
>>>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again,
>>>>>>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't
>>>>>>>>> hesitate to redirect.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur
>>>>>>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>>>>>>> 40g
>>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> k%4
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> aho
>>>>>>>>>>> o.com
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> com _______________________________________________
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