[blindLaw] Adobe and jaws

Wed Jul 24 15:47:32 UTC 2019

This is excellent, Steve. Thank you. I'll need to read this message a few more times before giving my thoughts. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 11:19 AM, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Laura and Rahul,
> 
> There are a number of issues that continually come up regarding PDF documents.  You were able to achieve a good deal of success with problems with tracking changes in Word because you could show how it was negatively affecting people on the job.  I think this makes what you choose to take on more effective than the efforts that some of us have made from a technical perspective.  However, as you have stated, Laura, it is important to figure out where the focus should be.
> 
> One thing that has to be done first is to separate the various problems being addressed.  From what I have observed, there is a tendency for all problems to be ignored once it is determined that a document has not been correctly tagged, and this is somewhat true of both Vispero and Adobe.  As you both know, an untagged or incorrectly tagged document can often be read if everything else is working all right.
> 
> I have not observed the focus problem with PDF's that you have described, but you likely read many more PDF's than I do.  However, it is worth checking a couple of things that have happened to me.  First, are you using a computer with a touch screen?  I have had focus move as a result of a touch screen on one of my laptops.  Sometimes I know I probably brushed the screen without meaning to, but sometimes I can't attribute the focus movement to anything that I did.  To a lesser degree, the mouse pad on a laptop can contribute to focus changes as well, even when brushed with a sleeve.  Finally, if you are using a desktop with an attached mouse, even vibration of the surface upon which the mouse rests can cause enough movement to affect focus.  My guess is that you have already eliminated these possibilities, but making the point when talking with Vispero right away will save time.  Also, it would be very helpful if you can determine that the problem does not exist on the same computer when using NVDA.
> 
> You mentioned that you are only interested in dealing with the latest version of JAWS.  This is also a good strategy since that's the first thing they will ask you.  What is less obvious is that the versions of the Acrobat Reader also change frequently.  One may not even know their version has been updated depending upon settings.  
> 
> A third factor is that there are a huge number of Acrobat settings.  Vispero might be helpful in knowing which settings could contribute to certain problems.  I had a case recently where documents on one of my computer opened up blank while they were read fine on another of my computer.  A particular security setting has to be set a certain way on one computer but that setting didn't seem to matter on the other.  I have no idea why that would have been the case.  The point is that there are a number of moving parts.  It occurs to me, though, that there could be animations that could disrupt focus.  Turning off any animation might help, but this is a guess on my part.
> 
> Another variable is how PDF documents are created.  Besides the issue of pages being pictures rather than characters, there are a number of third party programs that can create PDF documents.  I don't know to what degree third party PDF generators have to get an agreement from Adobe to do that.  However, Adobe tends to take no responsibility for things that may happen as a result of PDF's generated by third parties.  I have had the experience, for example, that when I open a PDF in Microsoft Word, the periods were all missing even though I could find them when reading the PDF with Acrobat.  Who knows why.  The issue of words all running together or being shown as one word per line still exists sometimes, but this also appears to be an issue with PDF's generated by some third party software.  
> 
> Rahul, you mention that you have had to deal with documents that appear to be empty.  You mention getting poor results when using OCR with Adobe Acrobat.  You also mention something about having to resort to using HTML.  The fact that a document requires OCR is not something for which Adobe can be held responsible.  Whether the professional version of Acrobat is good at performing OCR or not is not really something that can easily be addressed since such a PDF could have been created using a poor quality image.  There is no way that Adobe could guarantee that a document consisting of images can be turned into a good document even with their product.  This isn't to say that such an occurrence isn't frustrating to us as users.  
> 
> Finally, have people here used PDF forms that can be filled in while on Computer?  I have not used such PDF forms for some time now, but they were not easy to use when I did.  Again, there are things Adobe suggests to make such forms more accessible, but I don't know how well screen readers handle these forms even when they are correctly created.
> 
> Given the importance of PDF documents and the various issues that we encounter, there needs to be some thought as to which problems need to be addressed and where should those problems be directed.  There is a lot of room for each player in this to suggest the blame is elsewhere, so it is important to focus these efforts.  
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 9:57 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Adobe and jaws
> 
> CAN you be more specific about the problems you had with Adobe? I haven't had problems so far.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Laura,
>> 
>> Are you using Adobe Acrobat to do OCR on image-based PDFs? I attempted
>> this at my last place of employment with pretty unimpressive results,
>> so I typically use FineReader to get the job done, with mixed success
>> depending on the nature of the document.
>> 
>> I occasionally encounter a similar problem with NVDA, which I have
>> come to prefer over JAWS, but usually only when using CTRL+Page Down.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I'll try but that might not be possible given my employer.
>>> 
>>>> On 7/24/19, Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If possible, I’d be grateful if you could keep me in the loop in any
>>>> advocacy effort that you might initiate to get this issue rectified. It
>>>> was
>>>> a significant impediment for me last academic year, and I would like to
>>>> help
>>>> in getting it addressed.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Perfect. Thanks, Rahul!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 7:56 AM, Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I may have been using 2018 at the time. But I have confirmed that the
>>>>>> problem does not go away with updating jaws.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> R
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rahul,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My recollection is that you weren't using the latest version of Jaws.
>>>>>>> Is
>>>>>>> that not correct?
>>>>>>> I am autotagging and recognizing the documents within Adobe myself, so
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't think that's the problem.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 7:07 AM, Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Laura,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You might recall that I had complained about this when our track
>>>>>>>> changes conversation was underway. This has become a huge problem. I
>>>>>>>> have corresponded with the head of adobe accessibility, one Robert
>>>>>>>> something. He attributes this to pdfs being improperly tagged, but
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> does not explain why this problem is suddenly surfacing now. Vispero
>>>>>>>> says that adobe is responsible for this.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> One workaround is to go to open with and select word and the doc will
>>>>>>>> open as a word document. For many docs, however, jaws thinks they have
>>>>>>>> no content when this is done. So then you have to view them as html
>>>>>>>> documents as email attachments.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I am using Adobe far more frequently than I have in the passed, and
>>>>>>>>> either I am doing something wrong, or Jaws is far less stable with
>>>>>>>>> Adobe than it used to be.  Does anyone else have the issue, using the
>>>>>>>>> latest version of Jaws, of Jaws randomly losing its focus and
>>>>>>>>> flipping
>>>>>>>>> to other parts of the document?  This has been frequently happening
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> me, both when using the arrows/page up/down to navigate and with
>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>> say all.  Again, I'm only interested in experiences with the latest
>>>>>>>>> version of Jaws.  But if you are having this experience, please let
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> know at your earliest convenience and I will try getting it
>>>>>>>>> addressed.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Kelby Carlson
>> 
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