[blindLaw] Discrimination
Brian Unitt
BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com
Tue Oct 1 18:03:19 UTC 2019
JAWS does this as well.
Brian
Brian C. Unitt
Certified Specialist, Appellate Law
The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
Holstein, Taylor and Unitt
A Professional Corporation
4300 Latham Street, Suite 103
Riverside, CA 92501
Tel: 951-682-7030
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www.holsteinlaw.com
mailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:30 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Kelby Carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
For anybody who uses NVDA, you can tell if a quote is a smart quote because NVDA will say left/right quote, not just quote.
On 9/28/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Fair point, Ger. And then to hold me accountable going forward if I
> didn't fix them.
>
> On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Laura
>>
>> I must say, I think the appropriate course for your under-graduate
>> Professors to have followed would have been to:
>> 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would presumably
>> effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate impact on
>> your future); and 2. To tell you they were doing so and why and
>> explain the issues with content.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Ger
>>
>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in
>>> undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the "substance,"
>>> because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In fact, it wasn't.
>>> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked
>>> with drafting something for a client. This is why I really think
>>> this is in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we
>>> going to need to put in to make her work look presentable?
>>>
>>> And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to tell. And
>>> they see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to
>>> fix this... No harm, no foul.
>>>
>>> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned
>>> on for highlighting. I never really thought about highlighting.
>>> But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be
>>> filled in when filing, such as the final word count and the
>>> submission date. So although I would fill in everything, they were
>>> still in yellow. My assistant was just changing everything. After
>>> I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she
>>> thought she was helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc
>>> etc etc, she told me she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me,
>>>> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing
>>>> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value
>>>> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell
>>>> you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight
>>>> when drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when
>>>> copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>>>>
>>>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to
>>>> customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and
>>>> replace it with the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe.
>>>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be
>>>> so tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it
>>>> works for you.
>>>>
>>>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I,
>>>> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F
>>>> before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39.
>>>> Placing a caret before the number causes word to search for the ascii value.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever.
>>>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the
>>>>> world do we learn these things while we're still in school?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double
>>>>>> quotes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom.
>>>>>> The widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that
>>>>>> represents the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or
>>>>>> a closing quote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the
>>>>>> bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar
>>>>>> to a print letter “C,”
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of
>>>>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its
>>>>>> curve faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the
>>>>>> material.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the
>>>>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use
>>>>>> two apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in
>>>>>> braille, but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think
>>>>>> braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but someone
>>>>>> please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it
>>>>>> into this email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC |
>>>>>> San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any
>>>>>> documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may
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>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ray
>>>>>> Wayne via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart
>>>>>> quote?
>>>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question
>>>>>> was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart
>>>>>> quote/apostrophe?
>>>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>>>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>
>>>>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged
>>>>>> and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended
>>>>>> recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or
>>>>>> forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If
>>>>>> you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and
>>>>>> delete all copies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite
>>>>>> understand what you are trying to ask.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at
>>>>>> is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are,
>>>>>> in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser
>>>>>> visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come
>>>>>> along behind and clean up the work.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the
>>>>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over
>>>>>> and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind
>>>>>> person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has
>>>>>> happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I
>>>>>> initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific
>>>>>> feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said
>>>>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be
>>>>>> able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give
>>>>>> me some feedback.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed
>>>>>> that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told
>>>>>> my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew
>>>>>> it was the right thing to do.
>>>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft
>>>>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is
>>>>>> indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are
>>>>>> occasionally doing something that makes your documents look
>>>>>> strange."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding
>>>>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a
>>>>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will
>>>>>>> ask them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email
>>>>>>> off-list to learn more from your perspective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school
>>>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary
>>>>>>>> position is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted
>>>>>>>> efforts over the last 6 months to find work, I have no
>>>>>>>> employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at
>>>>>>>> this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith
>>>>>>>> and James have done an excellent job of giving you all you
>>>>>>>> should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related
>>>>>>>> work in law school because I did not want to be placed in that
>>>>>>>> box either.
>>>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in
>>>>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was
>>>>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights
>>>>>>>> law are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or
>>>>>>>> lack of understanding that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating
>>>>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys
>>>>>>>> are as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very
>>>>>>>> few ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address,
>>>>>>>> among other issues, employment discrimination against persons
>>>>>>>> with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to
>>>>>>>> provide education to members of the bar on the capacity of
>>>>>>>> lawyers with disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate
>>>>>>>> some of the underlying causes of employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>> This is done by presenting at meetings of the local bench and
>>>>>>>> bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog post linked below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Co
>>>>>>>>mmitt
>>>>>>>><https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C
>>>>>>>>ommitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> ee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good
>>>>>>>>> reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal
>>>>>>>>> degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that
>>>>>>>>> for whatever it’s worth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes
>>>>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a
>>>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried
>>>>>>>>> that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my
>>>>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant
>>>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational
>>>>>>>>> but still what I’m hearing supports that fear.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons
>>>>>>>>> why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others
>>>>>>>>> expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law
>>>>>>>>> in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly
>>>>>>>>> limiting characteristics.
>>>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting
>>>>>>>>> field of practice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation
>>>>>>>>> errors.
>>>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t
>>>>>>>>> have time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is
>>>>>>>>>> that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of
>>>>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage
>>>>>>>>>> employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to
>>>>>>>>>> practice. Despite my four externships during law school in
>>>>>>>>>> which I was able to perform the work assigned to the
>>>>>>>>>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt
>>>>>>>>>> my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to
>>>>>>>>>> thrive in practice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general
>>>>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so
>>>>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no
>>>>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law
>>>>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I
>>>>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview
>>>>>>>>>>> how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They
>>>>>>>>>>> seemed to be under the impression that someone must have
>>>>>>>>>>> helped me with all my schooling.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I
>>>>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job.
>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone
>>>>>>>>>>> they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for
>>>>>>>>>>>> heart break.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> light of my experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>davis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>etter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>akutny%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
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>>>>>> 3cBR%3e>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> %3cBR%3e>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
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>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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