[blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re: Discrimination

Scott Marshall marshall at blindlawyers.org
Fri Oct 4 08:51:11 UTC 2019 

Laura and everyone:
Thank you! This email thread has been invaluable. My biggest word processing challenge is screwing up the formatting of documents that I did not create originally. I have not made the changes suggested here as yet, but it is on my to-do list for today for sure. 
Now if we only had a good solution for the track changes problem. 
The days of being the only author on a document are over.
Thanks again.
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Will Burley via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 12:28 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Will Burley <will.burley3 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re: Discrimination

 This conversation has been very welcomed!

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:43 PM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Laura - I am not in a place where I can double check, but I often use 
> paste special as text when I copy from programs.  In Word the 
> keystrokes are to copy the text onto the clipboard and move to where 
> you want the text copied press Alt,e,s,u,u [do not press the commas, 
> just press the letters consecutively )
>
> I think this will copy the text using the format of the document into 
> which it is pasted.
>
> Is this your experience.
>
> There are also two keystrokes that I think help.
> If you highlight text and then press Alt+space the formatting of the 
> text is removed.
> There is a similar command to remove the paragraph formatting, but I 
> don't remember it right now.
>
> Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk 
> via BlindLaw
> Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 5:13 PM
> To: Kelby Carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>; Blind Law Mailing List < 
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
> Discrimination
>
> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION**
>
> All,
>
> I am sharing this on list because I've gotten a few off-list responses 
> like the below message, and I want to make sure that everyone gets 
> this info.  In my opinion, it's the biggest way to rid docs of 
> blindness-only formatting errors.
>
> By default, when you cut and paste into a word document from another 
> document, program, or website, Word will retain the original 
> formatting from that pasted text.  That means that if you're fiile is 
> in Times New Roman size 12, but the text you paste is Calibri size 10, 
> you will be plopping a different font and size into your doc, and 
> anything you write going forward will be in that font and size.  Same 
> goes for spacing, color, and any number of other attributes from 
> pasted text.  My biggest piece of advice, and the advice I repeat most 
> often to blind folks, is to **turn this setting off!!.**  It only 
> causes problems.  And, in the rare instance where you do need to 
> preserve the original formatting, you can hit control immediately 
> after pasting and choose "keep source formatting," and any special 
> formatting will be retained.
>
> With so many iterations of word these days, I don't feel comfortable 
> typing out directions.  But go spElunking in your ADVANCED word 
> options, Google, call Microsoft, whatever you need to do to find it.
> Also note that there are two boxes, one for pasting between documents 
> and one for pasting between programs.  They should both be set to 
> merge formatting.  And while you're at it, turn off auto bullets and 
> auto numbering, and check the box that says "set left- and right- 
> indent with tabs and backspaces."  This will mean you'll need to press 
> tab every time you start a new paragraph.  However, it will also mean 
> that you won't have paragraphs randomly indented a third of the way 
> into the page because Word decided to do something stupid using its 
> very smart "auto" features.
>
> Also be aware that you will have to do this separately in outlook as 
> well.  Though it uses Word as a text processor, it has its own set of 
> options.
>
> Anyway, in the words of the infomercials, you should **immediately** 
> see **vast** and **life-changing** results!  All kidding aside, 
> though, this is the first thing I do whenever I get a new job or 
> computer, and it has made an absolute world of difference to me and 
> the amount of errors that sighted folks need to fix.
>
> Happy formatting,
> Laura
>
> On 10/2/19, Kelby Carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Laura,
> >
> > This is definitely helpful. I admit I am not proficient at using a 
> > Braille display with my screen reader, and I'm sure this would be 
> > helpful. Do you use UEB to proof for things like formatting? In my 
> > experience it gives far more specific results than regular US braille.
> > I assume you would still need some formatting such as fonts and 
> > colors spoken. (I only recently figured out that oftentimes color is 
> > included in things I copy and paste which ends up making certain 
> > sections of documents look very odd; thankfully my office is pretty 
> > good at bringing these formatting errors to my attention.)
> >
> > Hopefully these questions aren't bothersome; I have definitely 
> > realized how important these factors are since beginning work and I 
> > am still working out the best way of ensuring visual consistency in 
> > my documents.
> >
> > On 10/2/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Kelby,
> >>
> >> A nonbreaking space, like a nonbreaking hyphen, means that word 
> >> wrap will not break up whatever is on either side of it.  So, for 
> >> instance, if you had the word burden--shifting, and for some reason 
> >> burden ended up on one line and shifting on another, you'd replace 
> >> the dash with a nonbreaking hyphen so that the word wouldn't be 
> >> chopped.  A nonbreaking space is, in my experience, customarily 
> >> used between section and paragraph symbols and the number so as to 
> >> keep the two together.  It's also used in between the periods of an 
> >> ellipsis.  This all depends on the custom of the firm or court you 
> >> work for, of course.  There is a setting in Jaws that is supposed 
> >> to read out nonbreaking characters (you can find it by activating 
> >> quick settings and typing in the word breaking), but this is 
> >> currently not functioning.  Vispero is aware and has escalated it.
> >>
> >> As for formatting, I do most of my proofing in Braille.  But I have 
> >> turned on the setting where Jaws will tell me when spacing changes, 
> >> which I find very helpful.  I also have punctuation set to some, 
> >> but I've added some customary marks into that, like quotation marks.
> >>
> >> I hope this is helpful.
> >>
> >> Laura
> >>
> >> On 10/2/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>> How much formatting information do you all have your screen reader 
> >>> read as you are reading through a text? I now have mine set up to 
> >>> read close to everything while I'm in Word, and while it is kind 
> >>> of distracting it seems necessary for proofing.
> >>>
> >>> I would love to know if there is anywhere that discusses the 
> >>> different kinds of hyphens and when to use them. And I have no 
> >>> idea what a non-breaking space is.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw 
> >>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Great I’m glad the workaround is working again! By the way you 
> >>>> can
> also
> >>>> do
> >>>> this to make Jaws pronounce non-breaking spaces, which also got 
> >>>> broken somewhere along the way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:40 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw 
> >>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Laura, I have Word 2016. I just changed the entries for \8220 
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> \8221
> >>>>> to left quote and right quote, respectively, in WordClassic.jdf. 
> >>>>> By default, both were set to the quote symbol (not sure which 
> >>>>> one). The changes seem to have taken. I think I will have to 
> >>>>> make sure I do
> this
> >>>>> for other dictionary files as well. Hopefully it works for you
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/well.+Hopefully+it+works+for+you?entry=gmail&source=g>.
> I’m
> >>>>> excited to have these pronounced differently.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Angie
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
> >>>>> Attorney at Law
> >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/> Loeb and Loeb LLP
> >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 
> >>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | 
> >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
> >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | 
> >>>>> San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | 
> >>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura 
> >>>>> Wolk via BlindLaw
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 6:27 PM
> >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Great! I will try again tomorrow. I just updated again today. I 
> >>>>> have ms word 2016, but I don't see why that would affect the 
> >>>>> dictionary manager.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw 
> >>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Laura,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, the most recent update of JAWS 2019 and office 365.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brian
> >>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
> >>>>>> Certified Specialist in Appellate Law By The State Bar of 
> >>>>>> California Holstein, Taylor and Unitt A Professional 
> >>>>>> Corporation
> >>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103
> >>>>>> Riverside, CA 92501
> >>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
> >>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
> >>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com
> >>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com%3cBR%3e%3e>mailto:
> brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: BlindLaw
> >>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> >>
> On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 3:02 PM
> >>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> >>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk 
> >>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brian,
> >>>>>> I used to do this, but I mentioned in an earlier message that 
> >>>>>> I'm no longer able to get the dictionary to change those pronunciations.
> >>>>>> I've
> >>>>>> tole Vispero and they've replicated it. Are you using the 
> >>>>>> latest version of Jaws and is it working for you?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw 
> >>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It also does this if the document is an email attachment and 
> >>>>>>> viewed in html form.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 10:37 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw 
> >>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have found that JAWS will do this if you have smart quotes 
> >>>>>>>> in a text file in notepad. I wish it did it in Word and 
> >>>>>>>> outlook. Since it does do it in Notepad, it seems it would 
> >>>>>>>> not be that difficult to port the behavior over to the Office 
> >>>>>>>> products.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This 
> >>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous 
> >>>>>>>> e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential 
> >>>>>>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are
> not
> >>>>>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for 
> >>>>>>>> delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby 
> >>>>>>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of 
> >>>>>>>> any of the information contained
> in
> >>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>> attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you 
> >>>>>>>> have received this transmission in error, please immediately 
> >>>>>>>> notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission 
> >>>>>>>> and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. 
> >>>>>>>> Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
> >>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
> >>>>>>>> rg>>
> >>>>>>>> On
> >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk
> >>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 4:35 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> >>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk 
> >>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com
> >>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Really? Not in my experience. Can you give us an example of 
> >>>>>>>> what you mean?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 10/1/19, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> JAWS does this as well.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brian
> >>>>>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
> >>>>>>>>> Certified Specialist, Appellate Law The State Bar of 
> >>>>>>>>> California Board of Legal Specialization
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Holstein, Taylor and Unitt
> >>>>>>>>> A Professional Corporation
> >>>>>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103 Riverside, CA 92501
> >>>>>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
> >>>>>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
> >>>>>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com
> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com%3cBR%3e%3e>>mailto:
> brianunitt at holsteinlaw
> >>>>>>>>> <%3emailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> .com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.
> >>>>>>>>> org
> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
> rg
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>> On
> >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:30 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> >>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: Kelby Carlson
> >>>>>>>>> <kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:
> kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For anybody who uses NVDA, you can tell if a quote is a 
> >>>>>>>>> smart quote because NVDA will say left/right quote, not just 
> >>>>>>>>> quote.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/28/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Fair point, Ger. And then to hold me accountable going 
> >>>>>>>>>> forward
> if
> >>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> didn't fix them.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier 
> >>>>>>>>>>> <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com<mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com
> <mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com%3cmailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Laura
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I must say, I think the appropriate course for your 
> >>>>>>>>>>> under-graduate Professors to have followed would have been 
> >>>>>>>>>>> to:
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would
> presumably
> >>>>>>>>>>> effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate 
> >>>>>>>>>>> impact on your future); and 2. To tell you they were doing 
> >>>>>>>>>>> so and why and explain the issues with content.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ger
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "substance,"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In
> fact,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it wasn't.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tasked with drafting something for a client. This is why 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really think this is in the back of people's minds... 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how much extra work are we going to need to put in to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> make her work look presentable?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tell. And they see this stuff and think, it'll only take 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a second for me to fix this... No harm, no foul.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> schemes turned on for highlighting. I never really 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thought about highlighting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to be filled in when filing, such as the final word count 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and the submission date. So although I would fill in 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> everything, they were still in yellow. My assistant was 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just changing everything.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> After I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how I knew she thought she was helping, and I really 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me she'd 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:
> laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> apostrophes are 8216 and
> 8217.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> can also
> happen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise with the straight apostrophe.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it a go and see if it works for you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these
> symbols.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> control+F
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Placing a caret before the number causes word to search 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the ascii value.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference whatsoever.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the world do we learn these things while we're still 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in school?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about double quotes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bottom.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The widest point is at the top. There is only one 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbol that represents the quotation mark, whether it 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is an opening quote or a closing quote.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shaped similar to a print letter “C,”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the right of the enclosed material, is shaped like a 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards “C,”
> so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve faces to the left. It is almost like they 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are enclosing the material.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quotes, since the opening and closing quotes are 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone please jump in and correct me
> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m wrong.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pasting it into this email.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you tell the difference?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/> Loeb and Loeb LLP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DC
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20001
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Washington, DC
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com><http://www.loeb.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ><
> http://www.loeb.com/>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3chttp:/
> www.loeb.com/%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOTICE:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, or a person 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsible for delivering it to the intended 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information contained in or attached to this 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its attachments without reading
> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> g>> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:
> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a smart quote?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> g<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> @nfbnet.org>>> On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindla
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> %3cmailto:blindla%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:w at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Shannon
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:
> sbg at sbgaal.com%3c
> >>>>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%
> 3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3c%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Laura,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question was regarding knowing the difference between 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you
> explain.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
> %3cm<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal
> .com
> %3cm>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forwarding without express permission is strictly 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't quite understand what you are trying to ask.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind and clean up the work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the errors they make over and over again, and the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people continue to believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the blind person is not as capable as the rest of 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their peers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This has happened to me also. I have even had 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to figure out a way to address it." And then they did 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give me some feedback.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit embarrassed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soft skills help we need, and we need to create 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that makes your documents look strange."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura and all,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding employment discrimination. I have planned 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations with a couple of attorneys responsible 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for hiring associates
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will ask them for more information. Laura, I will 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send you an email off-list to learn more from your 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law
> school
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temporary position is ending next Monday. And, 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months to find work, I have no employment lined up. 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and James have done an excellent job of giving you 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all you should consider in looking to go to law school.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rights related work in law school because I did not 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to be placed in that box either.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers in that area might be a bit more 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding and educated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. Do not assume that those who practice 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability rights law are any less susceptible to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educating folks on the reality that blind or 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other issues, employment discrimination against 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities in the legal profession. 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are trying to provide education to members of the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hopes that this will alleviate some
> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underlying causes of employment discrimination.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is done by presenting at meetings of the local 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writings like the blog post linked below.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis%3cBR%3e%3
> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> m-Co
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mmitt
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali
> >>>>> <https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali%3cB
> >>>>> R%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>> sm-C
> >>>>>>>> <
> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C%0b>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ommitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ee
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good reasons for people like myself and Sanho 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pursuing a
> legal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proud
> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that for whatever it’s worth.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fill our sales.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence of
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have worried that someone will see my GPA and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow assume that all of my professors have 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course irrational but still what I’m hearing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports that fear.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law. I
> am
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a field which others expect me to enter. I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to one of my most visible and perceptibly 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limiting characteristics.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most excepting field of practice.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictation errors.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’
> observation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that the experience a blind candidate may 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possess by way of externships and internships does 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to practice. Despite my four externships during 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school in which I was able to perform the work 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think employers still doubt my abilities to 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver the work they expect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in general have no issue trusting that I am 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable to do something, so long as I am not being 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> securing volunteer or community involvement 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities. .
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance in law school being seen as a parlor 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license, I was asked in a
> job
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview how I got those things if I can’t read 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a physical book. They seemed to be under the 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impression that someone must have helped me with 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all my
> schooling.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated by other attorneys when they find out I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have my own firm versus how I was treated when I 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was first out of
> school
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and looking for a job.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to
> make
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connections.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intense than I thought it would be before 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entering the profession.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stimulus
> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart break.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> %20%25%0b>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> %20%25%0b>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some time now--that many employers pretty much 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I think he's right, and it makes a 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great deal of sense in light of my experience.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school, which is still extremely important 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the way, with all the things that law school 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't prepare you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for: taking depositions, handling contentious 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with any kind of visual aspect to it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these things before being?? seen as potentially 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do them in practice. I understand that 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are somewhat less grim for people who 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will
> soon
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out if this is true in my own case. I also
> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if the same fears cloud employers'
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance??
> setting,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the nature of the work. So, be prepared 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible candidate, so that you can be 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my
> naive
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self thought when I was first licensed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho
> Steele-Louchart
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.o
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
> <mailt
> >>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> %3cmailt%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> o:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found hiring practices so far? Messages are 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome on
> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __ BlindLaw mailing list 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmail
> to>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .org
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e
> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o%3cBR%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>> rg%3 cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o%3cBR%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>> rg%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chtt
> >>>>> p:/
> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%253%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3
> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3ecBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> %3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> >>>>> info for
> >>>>> BlindLaw:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e
> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /cjd
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avis9
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or%3cBR%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>> g/cj
> >>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cj%0b
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> davis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ BlindLaw mailing list 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.o
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
> <mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3
> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or%3cBR%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3e%3e>
> >>>>> g%3c BR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or%3cBR%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3e%3e>
> >>>>> g%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3chttp:/
> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o
>
--
Will Burley
Mobile:  (713) 614-3322
Email:  will.burley3 at gmail.com

“I think we all have empathy, but we may not have enough courage to display it.” –Maya Angelou _______________________________________________
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