From dandrews920 at comcast.net Sun Sep 1 17:57:22 2019 From: dandrews920 at comcast.net (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 12:57:22 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Adobe Reader DC and JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A six-page document is not a large document. If you were having stability problems with six-page documents, then there was something else going on. I will not say that JAWS and Adobe is perfect, but I use them on a daily basis and have no chronic problems. Dave At 11:51 AM 8/30/2019, you wrote: >Hello everyone. >For those of you using Jaws with Adobe Reader DC, how stable is it? >I used to use Adobe with JAWS a while back and >the main problem I had was that any document >bigger than 6 pages or so tended to crash both Adobe and JAWS. >When I would open documents that big, it would >bring up a dialogue with detailed accessibility >settings, then it would say document processing and crash. >However Wednesday I had an interesting >experience with NVDA, where I opened a file that >was 727 pages long and the screenreader behaved >just fine, so I was wondering if they had fixed >their interaction with JAWS yet as well. > >Thanks, > >Jorge > > > >Jorge Paez >paezja at mail.broward.edu >Https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamjorgepaez > >So you want to be a public defender? >Don’t do it for the money, there isn’t enough. >Don’t do it for prestige, you won’t get any. >Don’t do it for the thrill of victory, victory rarely comes. > >Do it for love. Do it for justice. Do it for self-respect. >Do it for the satisfaction of knowing you are serving others, >defending the Constitution, living your ideals. > >The work is hard. The law is against you. >The facts are against you. The judges are often against you. >Sometimes even your clients are against you. > >But it is a great job ­ exhilarating, eenergizing, rewarding. >You get to touch people’s hearts >and fight for what you believe in every day.” > > Carol A. Brook > Executive Director > >Federal Defender of Northern District of Illinois From kingettblue at outlook.com Tue Sep 3 03:57:44 2019 From: kingettblue at outlook.com (Robert Kingett) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 03:57:44 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Expert witness offer Message-ID: I am an expert screen reader user specializing in web accessibility. Particularly, web accessibility and web accessibility guidelines. I've been an expert witness for the firm listed in my portfolio, below. I'm looking to do more of this kind of work. My webpage detailing my accessibility knowledge and skills  is below. To date, I've submitted many expert witness reports but the other party has always settled out of court. I've included my email below if anybody wishes to write to me off list with questions. https://blindjournalist.wordpress.com/tech/ From jtfetter at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 19:23:28 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 15:23:28 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaws and MS Word Issues: No Longer Reads By Word or Reads Text When Selecting by Word Message-ID: Houston, we have a problem. My work computer updated, and now, Jaws no longer allows reading by word or reads text when selecting by word in MS Word. I can still read by character and by line. Has anyone else experienced the same issue? Versions are: Jaws 2019.1907.42 (latest version). Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (latest update). Microsoft Office 365 (latest update, I checked). NVDA reads by word and reads text selected by word just fine, so it must be a Jaws-specific issue. I'm happy to contact Vespero and go through their process but wanted to check here first to see if this is a global problem or unique to my system. Thanks in advance for your help! From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 19:55:33 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 15:55:33 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaws and MS Word Issues: No Longer Reads By Word or Reads Text When Selecting by Word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, First, whether you contact Vispero or reach out to other avenues, you need to provide not only the version, but also the build number. So make sure you get that for your windows OS and 365 if you need to contact someone at VFO. Second, if your work update involved an update to your work's security system or anti-virus software, it's possible that that is causing the problem. That happened to me once and it took quite a long time to diagnose. But fixing it resolved the issue. Good luck. Laura Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 3, 2019, at 3:23 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > Houston, we have a problem. My work computer updated, and now, Jaws no longer allows reading by word or reads text when selecting by word in MS Word. I can still read by character and by line. Has anyone else experienced the same issue? Versions are: > > Jaws 2019.1907.42 (latest version). > > Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (latest update). > > Microsoft Office 365 (latest update, I checked). > > NVDA reads by word and reads text selected by word just fine, so it must be a Jaws-specific issue. I'm happy to contact Vespero and go through their process but wanted to check here first to see if this is a global problem or unique to my system. Thanks in advance for your help! > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com From amarjain at amarjain.com Wed Sep 4 00:08:20 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 05:38:20 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaws and MS Word Issues: No Longer Reads By Word or Reads Text When Selecting by Word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have noticed this in Outlook. Everything latest. I am in touch with Vispero for large documents crashing, let them fix that bit and I will get them to work on this. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 04-Sep-2019, at 1:25 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > James, > > First, whether you contact Vispero or reach out to other avenues, you need to provide not only the version, but also the build number. So make sure you get that for your windows OS and 365 if you need to contact someone at VFO. > > Second, if your work update involved an update to your work's security system or anti-virus software, it's possible that that is causing the problem. That happened to me once and it took quite a long time to diagnose. But fixing it resolved the issue. Good luck. > > Laura > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 3, 2019, at 3:23 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Houston, we have a problem. My work computer updated, and now, Jaws no longer allows reading by word or reads text when selecting by word in MS Word. I can still read by character and by line. Has anyone else experienced the same issue? Versions are: >> >> Jaws 2019.1907.42 (latest version). >> >> Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (latest update). >> >> Microsoft Office 365 (latest update, I checked). >> >> NVDA reads by word and reads text selected by word just fine, so it must be a Jaws-specific issue. I'm happy to contact Vespero and go through their process but wanted to check here first to see if this is a global problem or unique to my system. Thanks in advance for your help! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarjain.com From gmanmesa at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 19:15:07 2019 From: gmanmesa at gmail.com (James Mooney) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:15:07 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Competing on a national trial competition team Message-ID: <6F92FAC9-A6B5-4196-AEB9-9F882AC8B72B@gmail.com> Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has ever competed on a national trial competition team during law school? I am currently a 2L at the University of Baltimore and recently joined the team. I was wondering if I could speak to anyone off line on some helpful techniques on being an affective litigator while during the trial. From derekjdittmar at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 19:19:55 2019 From: derekjdittmar at gmail.com (Derek Dittmar) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:19:55 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Competing on a national trial competition team In-Reply-To: <6F92FAC9-A6B5-4196-AEB9-9F882AC8B72B@gmail.com> References: <6F92FAC9-A6B5-4196-AEB9-9F882AC8B72B@gmail.com> Message-ID: James, I competed on a national trial team, as well as two national moot court teams, during my time at law school. Please feel free to reach out off list at derekjdittmar at gmail.com, and we'll find a time to chat. Warmly yours, Derek On 9/4/19, James Mooney via BlindLaw wrote: > Hello all, > > I was wondering if anyone has ever competed on a national trial competition > team during law school? I am currently a 2L at the University of Baltimore > and recently joined the team. I was wondering if I could speak to anyone off > line on some helpful techniques on being an affective litigator while during > the trial. > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/derekjdittmar%40gmail.com > From jim at skamarakas.com Wed Sep 4 19:26:35 2019 From: jim at skamarakas.com (jim at skamarakas.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 19:26:35 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Competing on a national trial competition team In-Reply-To: References: <6F92FAC9-A6B5-4196-AEB9-9F882AC8B72B@gmail.com>, Message-ID: James, I competed my 2L and 3L years and went on to earn my L.L.M. In Trial Advocacy. Feel free to email me off list or call to chat 856-308-5196. Trial competitions will help with logistical issues and increase your knowledge and confidence with Evidence. Best of luck, Jim From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 6 12:03:53 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:03:53 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d564ab$275ae070$7610a150$@labarrelaw.com> fyi From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 5:55 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Good morning, Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans, LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities. We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of New York Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2019, Civil Division State New York Posted/ Updated September 5, 2019 Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 5, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of California Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State California Posted/ Updated September 5, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of California Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State California Posted/ Updated September 5, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Illinois Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Illinois Posted/ Updated September 5, 2019 Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Law Clerk State California Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Law Student Volunteer (Summer 2020) State Colorado Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization United States Attorney's Office (USAO) Job Title ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY State Alabama Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Illinois Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Illinois Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of South Carolina Job Title AUSA State South Carolina Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title International Computer Hacking and Intellectual Property Attorney Advisor, Ethiopia State Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Oklahoma Job Title Assistant U.S. Attorney State Oklahoma Posted/ Updated September 4, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Colorado Job Title Supervisory Assistant United States Attorney State Colorado Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Virginia Job Title Law Student Volunteer State Virginia Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of Virginia Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Virginia Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization National Security Division (NSD) Job Title Attorney Advisor - Oversight State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Resident Legal Advisor, El Salvador State Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title International Computer Hacking and Intellectual Property Attorney Advisor, Malaysia State Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Resident Legal Advisor, Kenya State Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Office on Violence Against Women (OVW) Job Title Attorney-Advisor State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Kentucky Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2020 State Kentucky Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Law Student Volunteer (Spring 2020) State Maryland Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Volunteer Legal Intern, Spring 2020 State Pennsylvania Posted/ Updated September 3, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Illinois Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Illinois Posted/ Updated September 2, 2019 Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Spring 2020 State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 1, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Colorado Job Title Assistant United States Attorney, Criminal Division State Colorado Posted/ Updated August 30, 2019 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Sep 6 15:31:14 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:31:14 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Washington Attorney General's Office - Attorney Opportunities Message-ID: From: Linda Nakamura Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 4:41 PM To: Diversity Stakeholders Subject: [diversity-stakeholders] WA AGO - Attorney Opportunities At the Washington State Attorney General’s Office, we aspire to be the best public law office in the nation. We are committed to providing excellent, independent, and ethical legal services to the State of Washington and to protecting the rights of its people. It is essential to our mission to create and maintain an office that is diverse, respectful, inclusive and composed of the best legal talent available. If you share our vision and have a desire to do important work that makes a difference for our community, then we invite you to consider applying for the following attorney opportunities. Click on the link below to access full position descriptions and qualifications for each of these ATTORNEY opportunities. You can also visit the state's centralized recruitment site at www.careers.wa.gov. For information about the AGO, visit www.atg.wa.gov. Torts - The Washington State Attorney General's Office's Torts Division in Tumwater/Olympia has an outstanding opportunity for an experienced attorney to join the Division as the Team Leader of its Team 2 trial litigation team. (DL: 9/5/19) Closes tonight! Deputy Solicitor General - The Solicitor General's Division has an opening for a Deputy Solicitor General. The Division is the division within the responsible for United States Supreme Court practice, appellate assistance programs, coordinating amicus briefs, preparing Attorney General Opinions, writing ballot measure materials, coordinating statewide legal issues, coordinating certain litigation involving the federal government, and at times directly representing the state in significant matters. (DL: 9/8/19) Criminal Justice Division's Criminal Litigation Unit - The Bob Keppel Criminal Justice Division has an exciting opportunity in its Seattle office for an attorney interested in representing the State in claims of wrongful conviction under Washington's Wrongfully Convicted Persons Act, Chapter 4.100 RCW. (DL: 9/8/19) Education - The Education Division has an opening for an experienced attorney interested in serving the State's education agencies. (DL: 9/12/19) Regional Services - The Office is looking for an attorney to serve in its Regional Services Division in Vancouver, WA. This attorney will work in a high volume litigation practice entailing frequent state court docket and trial appearances. (DL: 9/12/19) Appellate Attorney - Criminal Justice Division - The Bob Keppel Criminal Justice Division has an exciting opportunity in its Seattle office for an attorney interested in prosecuting the civil commitment of sexually violent predators under RCW 71.09. (DL: 9/17/19) Counsel for Environmental Protection - The Counsel for Environmental Protection Unit seeks an attorney to lead high-profile, significant environmental protection litigation. (DL: 9/22/19) University of Washington - The attorney sought for this position will represent and advise the UW in connection with a variety of matters, including land use and permitting, purchasing and procurement, UW Police Department and campus security, business transactions and contracting. (DL: 9/26/19) Torts - Early Resolution Program - The Washington State Attorney General's Office's Torts Division has an opening for a lawyer with at least 5 years of significant litigation experience for its Early Resolution Program. (DL: 9/29/19) Consumer Protection Division - We are looking for attorneys with at least 5 years of litigation experience, preferably with experience involving health care law, including unfair or deceptive practices arising in the healthcare marketplace such as billing, pricing, and collection practices, health plan and provider marketing practices, charity care, governance of healthcare institutions, the conversion of non-profit hospitals, and other commercial aspects of medical care. All candidates must have a commitment to public service and a strong desire to enforce consumer protection laws. (DL: 10/1/19) Please consider joining our e-mail subscription service to be informed of our attorney postings. Honoring diversity, equity and inclusion means that as an agency, and as individuals, we are committed to ensuring that all employees and volunteers enjoy a respectful, safe and supportive working environment. Only by fostering the inclusion of people from all backgrounds, cultures and attributes, can AGO employees and volunteers achieve their fullest potential and best advance the goals and mission of the AGO. The AGO is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate on the basis of race, creed, color, national origin, sex, marital status, sexual orientation/gender identity, age, disability, honorably discharged veteran or military status, retaliation or the use of a trained dog guide or service animal by a person with a disability. Persons requiring reasonable accommodation in the application process or requiring information in an alternative format may contact Tracy Robinson at 360-586-7693. Those with a hearing impairment in need of accommodation are encouraged to contact the Washington Relay Service at 1-800-676-3777 or www.washingtonrelay.com --- You are currently subscribed to diversity-stakeholders as: noel.nightingale at ed.gov. To unsubscribe click here: http://list.wsba.org/u?id=9689257.98490556339430b43adf9753d1310389&n=T&l=diversity-stakeholders&o=1124602 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-1124602-9689257.98490556339430b43adf9753d1310389 at list.wsba.org If you have any questions, or wish to change your email address, please contact the WSBA List Administrator. From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 19:43:38 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:43:38 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Advice for Blind Lawyer Starting Out Message-ID: Hello all I have been asked to give some advice to another blind lawyer who is starting out and to the firm that is hiering her. I have a meeting with the firm and her early next week. I have my own ideas but would be grateful for any points people think may be worth making. Kind regards Ger From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 19:43:39 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:43:39 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Advice for Blind Lawyer Starting Out Message-ID: Hello all I have been asked to give some advice to another blind lawyer who is starting out and to the firm that is hiering her. I have a meeting with the firm and her early next week. I have my own ideas but would be grateful for any points people think may be worth making. Kind regards Ger From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Sat Sep 7 00:24:37 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:24:37 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [WADA] Fwd: University of Washington Job Postingattorney/internal investigator Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Jonathan Ko Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 5:15 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Fwd: University of Washington Job Posting ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: kara19 > Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Subject: University of Washington Job Posting To: jonathan.ko at gmail.com > Hi Jonathan, I’m writing because the University of Washington is hiring an attorney for an investigator position and we thought members of the Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association might be interested. The position is for an internal investigator at the University. A link to the posting is below. https://uwhires.admin.washington.edu/eng/candidates/default.cfm?szCategory=jobprofile&szOrderID=171536&szCandidateID=0&szSearchWords=uciro&szReturnToSearch=1 Warm regards, Kara G. Leon Program Coordinator University Complaint Investigation and Resolution Office and Title IX Investigation Office UW Compliance & Risk Services Roosevelt Commons East Box 354996 4311 11th Ave. N.E., Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98105-4608 206.616.2028 kara19 at uw.edu | https://compliance.uw.edu [e-sig] Privileged, confidential or patient-identifiable information may be contained in this message. This information is meant only for the use of the intended recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, or if the message has been addressed to you in error, do not read, disclose, reproduce, distribute, disseminate, or otherwise use this transmission. Instead, please notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then destroy all copies of the message and any attachments. Thank you. -- ***************************************************************************** Privileged/Confidential information may be contained in this message. The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. The recipient of this information is prohibited from disclosing the information to any other party unless this disclosure has been authorized in advance. If you are not intended recipient of this message or any agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken in reliance on the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. You should immediately destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply E-Mail. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet E-Mail for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation/CAE4giaAy_c%3D4x0Bh%3DXu5F1gAZmjy7V1sC%2BMsm_WuACP_Wg4Jow%40mail.gmail.com. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1303 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 17:53:51 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:53:51 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Off topic: Running out doors In-Reply-To: References: <326F9BDB-AC60-4AE8-B4F0-8C3AE891F801@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, I would like information about this also please. Kind regards Ger On 8/21/19, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw wrote: > Yes. I run a little with my guidedog in a very familiar and low use > environment. I used to run all the time when I was in the Paralympics with > a guide runner. > > > Dr Paul Harpur > BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia > (non-practicing) > Fulbright Future Scholar/International Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt > Institute, SU, New York. > Senior Lecturer > > TC Beirne School of Law > The University of Queensland > Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia > > T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 > E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page > CRICOS code: 00025B > > > > > Scientia ac Labore > > This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the > addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of > Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any > transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is > prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and > notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do > not represent the official position of The University of Queensland. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon > Dillon via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2019 3:34 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Shannon Dillon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Off topic: Running out doors > > I do. You cannn contact me at shannonldillon at gmail.com or 4152185862. After > 5 is best. > > > Thanks. > > Shannon > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> I know this is an unusual question for this list serve, but does >> anyone on the list, run out doors? If so, I would like to talk with them >> off list. >> Thanks, >> >> Howard M. Adelsberg >> >> [image: Mailtrack] >> > gn=signaturevirality5&> >> Sender >> notified by >> Mailtrack >> > gn=signaturevirality5&> >> 08/21/19, >> 01:23:53 PM >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/shannonldillon%4 >> 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From amarjain at amarjain.com Sun Sep 8 02:02:16 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 07:32:16 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] IManage, Workshare, Litera and PDF users-list of accessibility issues and feature requests Message-ID: <008001d565e9$723fd930$56bf8b90$@amarjain.com> Hi all, If you are using latest I-Manage 10.2 Worksite, Workshare 9 and above, Litera Systems' Word plugins, and Acrobat Reader / Pro, feel free to let me know the list of issues that you are facing. I am writing to their management and developers in my individual capacity as a lawyer to work towards resolving them. Some of the founders are from India and I can leverage on that. Further, if you are aware of any way to file emails on I-Manage, then let me know please. I know one way is to create Outlook rules. Lastly, I am already in touch with Acrobat team and the head of accessibility of Adobe, in relation to issues faced by blind attorneys / lawyers. Feel free to email me the current issues which you are aware of. Thank you. Legally yours, Amar Jain From amarjain at amarjain.com Sun Sep 8 02:06:29 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 07:36:29 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution Message-ID: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. Press Control+F and paste in the following: DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. Thanks, Amar Jain -----Original Message----- From: Amar Jain Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Nicole Askins Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents Hi Randy, I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw wrote: > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > user > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >> retain the formatting that you need? >> >> Randy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Amar Jain >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> Hi all, >> >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >> >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >> l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > ain.com From rfarber at jw.com Sun Sep 8 03:08:23 2019 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 03:08:23 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> Message-ID: <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> Hello Amar - Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? Randy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Amar Jain Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. Press Control+F and paste in the following: DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. Thanks, Amar Jain -----Original Message----- From: Amar Jain Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Nicole Askins Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents Hi Randy, I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw wrote: > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > user > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >> retain the formatting that you need? >> >> Randy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Amar Jain >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> Hi all, >> >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >> >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >> l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > ain.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From amarjain at amarjain.com Sun Sep 8 03:35:55 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 09:05:55 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> Message-ID: <00C92B54-E557-4E7A-AC5D-63AF0D6E0773@amarjain.com> Hi Randy-while I am travelling at the moment, and I am not carrying my laptop. But from what I recollect: There was a line before that which said something in relation to header and footer. I do know that the line after that was exactly what I have pasted in my email, nothing more and nothing less than that. I am assuming you are using latest Jaws? If you are still struggling to get to exact line, then feel free to call me on +91-9892622230 and we can do it together with your Jaws on. Whats app call also works fine if you can deal with losing data connectivity. Thanks, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 08-Sep-2019, at 8:38 AM, Farber, Randy wrote: > > Hello Amar - > > Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? > > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. > > Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. > Press Control+F and paste in the following: > DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() > Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. > Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. > > Thanks, > Amar Jain > -----Original Message----- > From: Amar Jain > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Nicole Askins > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > > Hi Randy, > > I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. > > The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag >> that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I >> type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have >> any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws >> user >> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >>> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >>> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >>> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >>> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >>> retain the formatting that you need? >>> >>> Randy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Amar Jain >>> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >>> >>> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >>> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >>> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >>> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >>> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >>> >>> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >>> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >>> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Amar Jain >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >>> m >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj >> ain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From sai at fiatfiendum.org Sun Sep 8 18:35:08 2019 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:35:08 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Domino's v Robles (cert re website/app ADA accessibility); pro-ADA amici due Aug 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Domino's reply brief: Apparently nobody filed a pro-ADA amicus brief, whereas there were 5 in favor of Domino's desire to not make their app accessible. I'm disappointed. However, this is still just at cert stage. If cert is granted, hopefully the community will get its act together a bit better for the merits. Sincerely, Sai President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc. On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM Sai wrote: > > Here's Robles' opposition brief: > > > > No pro-ADA amici filed yet. I'm not 100% sure whether amici for cert > respondent are due the same time as the respondent, Rule 34(2)(a) / > 37(2)(a), or 7 days after that, Rule 37(3)(a). Not exactly the > clearest set of federal rules. > > Sincerely, > Sai > President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc. > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:08 AM Sai wrote: > > > > https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/dominos-pizza-llc-v-robles/ > > > > QP: Whether websites & apps have to be blind-accessible. CA9 below said yes. > > > > A bunch of amici have filed even on the cert petition. > > > > Seems likely to have widespread impacts, including on issues y'all litigate. Would suggest you get in on amici pro respondent if you can. > > > > Deadline August 14 — and August 4 to get parties' consent. Sup. Ct. R. 34(2)(a) > > > > Sincerely, > > Sai > > > > Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect errors. From amatney at loeb.com Mon Sep 9 13:46:09 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:46:09 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Farber, Randy via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM To: amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Farber, Randy Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution Hello Amar - Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? Randy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. Press Control+F and paste in the following: DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. Thanks, Amar Jain -----Original Message----- From: Amar Jain > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Nicole Askins > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents Hi Randy, I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw > wrote: > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > user > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >> retain the formatting that you need? >> >> Randy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Amar Jain > >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> Hi all, >> >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >> >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >> l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > ain.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From laura.wolk at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 14:13:21 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:13:21 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I'm going to try also. Also, what is an "object," for these purposes? I've noticed that docs with large numbers act sluggishly, though I haven't had anything crash. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 9, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. > > Angie > > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > [Loeb & Loeb LLP] > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Farber, Randy via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM > To: amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Farber, Randy > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > > > Hello Amar - > > Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? > > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > > Cc: Amar Jain > > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. > > Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. > Press Control+F and paste in the following: > DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() > Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. > Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. > > Thanks, > Amar Jain > -----Original Message----- > From: Amar Jain > > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > > Cc: Nicole Askins > > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > > Hi Randy, > > I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. > > The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw > wrote: >> >> Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag >> that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I >> type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have >> any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws >> user >> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >>> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >>> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >>> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >>> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >>> retain the formatting that you need? >>> >>> Randy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> Cc: Amar Jain > >>> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >>> >>> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >>> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >>> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >>> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >>> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >>> >>> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >>> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >>> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Amar Jain >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >>> m >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj >> ain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com From amarjain at amarjain.com Mon Sep 9 14:14:51 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 19:44:51 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Your understanding is correct Angie. But I am not sure why you are seeing 500 as well. Before finding, we can tick ‘match whole words’. This has not sorted out the problem fully and I have sent them a pdf of 2024 pages where Word completely crashes with Jaws. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:16 PM, Angela Matney wrote: > > Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. > > Angie > > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Farber, Randy via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM > To: amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Farber, Randy > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > > > Hello Amar - > > Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? > > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. > > Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. > Press Control+F and paste in the following: > DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() > Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. > Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. > > Thanks, > Amar Jain > -----Original Message----- > From: Amar Jain > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Nicole Askins > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > > Hi Randy, > > I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. > > The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw wrote: > > > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > > user > > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > > > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to > >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 > >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for > >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't > >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and > >> retain the formatting that you need? > >> > >> Randy > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain > >> via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM > >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> Cc: Amar Jain > >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > >> > >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. > >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain > >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in > >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As > >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. > >> > >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but > >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through > >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Amar Jain > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co > >> m > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai > >> l.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > > ain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From amatney at loeb.com Mon Sep 9 14:20:57 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:20:57 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B83D5@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Amar, sorry, I’m not sure what you’re referring to below with respect to 500. I think maybe this is an issue experienced by someone else. Thanks, Angie From: Amar Jain Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 10:15 AM To: Angela Matney Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; Farber, Randy Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution Your understanding is correct Angie. But I am not sure why you are seeing 500 as well. Before finding, we can tick ‘match whole words’. This has not sorted out the problem fully and I have sent them a pdf of 2024 pages where Word completely crashes with Jaws. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:16 PM, Angela Matney > wrote: Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Farber, Randy via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM To:amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Farber, Randy > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution Hello Amar - Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? Randy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. Press Control+F and paste in the following: DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. Thanks, Amar Jain -----Original Message----- From: Amar Jain > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Nicole Askins > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents Hi Randy, I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw > wrote: > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > user > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >> retain the formatting that you need? >> >> Randy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Amar Jain >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Cc: Amar Jain > >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> Hi all, >> >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. >> >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >> l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > ain.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From amarjain at amarjain.com Mon Sep 9 14:35:14 2019 From: amarjain at amarjain.com (Amar Jain) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 20:05:14 +0530 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B83D5@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B83D5@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <95204C66-13FA-4B7A-B55E-1C370A24A103@amarjain.com> Angie-Was responding to your email in context of what Randy wrote. Laura- content objects is a programming concept, but think of it this way. Your entire document is your parent object, and inside it are sections, paragraphs, pages, etc. These are your common examples of content objects. So Jaws tries to count them each time when document loads. Regards, Amar Jain Sent from my iPhone > On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:50 PM, Angela Matney wrote: > > Amar, sorry, I’m not sure what you’re referring to below with respect to 500. I think maybe this is an issue experienced by someone else. > > Thanks, > > Angie > From: Amar Jain > Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 10:15 AM > To: Angela Matney > Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; Farber, Randy > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > > > Your understanding is correct Angie. But I am not sure why you are seeing 500 as well. Before finding, we can tick ‘match whole words’. This has not sorted out the problem fully and I have sent them a pdf of 2024 pages where Word completely crashes with Jaws. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:16 PM, Angela Matney wrote: > > Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. > > Angie > > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Farber, Randy via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM > To:amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Farber, Randy > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > > > Hello Amar - > > Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at the beginning of a second line? > > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. > > Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. > Press Control+F and paste in the following: > DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() > Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. > Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a document is loaded. > > Thanks, > Amar Jain > -----Original Message----- > From: Amar Jain > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Nicole Askins > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > > Hi Randy, > > I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. > > The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine Reader itself. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw wrote: > > > > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag > > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I > > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have > > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws > > user > > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: > > > >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to > >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 > >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for > >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't > >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and > >> retain the formatting that you need? > >> > >> Randy > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain > >> via BlindLaw > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM > >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> Cc: Amar Jain > >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents > >> > >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. > >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain > >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in > >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As > >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator / NVDA. > >> > >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but > >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through > >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great help. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Amar Jain > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co > >> m > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai > >> l.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj > > ain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 9 15:22:27 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:22:27 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Career Opportunities at Earthjustice Message-ID: From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Jonathan Ko Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 10:51 PM To: WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation at googlegroups.com Subject: [WADA] Fwd: Career Opportunities at Earthjustice for Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association Members - International Ocean Wildlife Attorneys ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gregory Whitt > Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 6:55 AM Subject: Career Opportunities at Earthjustice for Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association Members - International Ocean Wildlife Attorneys To: > Cc: > Good morning, I hope all is well. I am reaching out because I have two career opportunities available that I think might be of interest to WADA’s membership. We are looking for two attorneys to work with our Oceans Program in our Seattle, San Francisco, or DC offices. The International Ocean Wildlife Attorneys will focus primarily on work with foreign nongovernmental organizations and institutions to develop and implement innovative strategies and litigation to protect keystone, highly migratory marine predator species from threats stemming from bycatch, overfishing, and pollution in select countries. The attorneys will also engage in and support litigation in U.S. courts to protect these same species. For more information about the roles and to apply, please follow the provided link. I hope you’re able to share this opportunity with your membership. If anyone has questions about the Earthjustice hiring process, we have created a detailed, step-by-step description, which you can find here: https://earthjustice.org/about/jobs/hiring-process. We also have many other opportunities nationwide, which you can find here: https://earthjustice.org/about/jobs. Please free to reach out if you have any additional questions or concerns not covered on the site. Thanks, and have a great day! Best, Greg Greg Whitt Legal Recruiter Earthjustice 1625 Massachusetts Avenue NW, Suite 702 Washington, DC 20036-2243 P: (202) 667-4500 ext 4301, direct dial (202) 797-4301 www.earthjustice.org http://facebook.com/earthjustice http://twitter.com/earthjustice -- ***************************************************************************** Privileged/Confidential information may be contained in this message. The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. The recipient of this information is prohibited from disclosing the information to any other party unless this disclosure has been authorized in advance. If you are not intended recipient of this message or any agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken in reliance on the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. You should immediately destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply E-Mail. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet E-Mail for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation/CAE4giaC4q0tzvqjmrfavWCC-RW6jL6TZ5WZPu1qiD02Hd8aHQQ%40mail.gmail.com. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 9 21:05:54 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 21:05:54 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: University of Washington Job Postinginternal investigator Message-ID: From: Jeanne Marie Clavere > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:22 PM To: Diversity >; President (WWL) >; Ann Baus > Subject: FW: University of Washington Job Posting Please post on your social media networks. Thanks! j Jeanne Marie Clavere | President | National Conference of Women's Bar Associations From: kara19 > Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 4:24 PM To: Jeanne Marie Clavere > Subject: University of Washington Job Posting Hi Jeanne Marie, I'm writing because the University of Washington is hiring an attorney for an investigator position and we thought members of the National Conference of Women's Bar Associations might be interested. The position is for an internal investigator at the University. A link to the posting is below. https://uwhires.admin.washington.edu/eng/candidates/default.cfm?szCategory=jobprofile&szOrderID=171536&szCandidateID=0&szSearchWords=uciro&szReturnToSearch=1 Warm regards, Kara G. Leon Program Coordinator University Complaint Investigation and Resolution Office and Title IX Investigation Office UW Compliance & Risk Services Roosevelt Commons East Box 354996 4311 11th Ave. N.E., Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98105-4608 206.616.2028 kara19 at uw.edu | https://compliance.uw.edu [e-sig] Privileged, confidential or patient-identifiable information may be contained in this message. This information is meant only for the use of the intended recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, or if the message has been addressed to you in error, do not read, disclose, reproduce, distribute, disseminate, or otherwise use this transmission. Instead, please notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then destroy all copies of the message and any attachments. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to diversity-stakeholders as: noel.nightingale at ed.gov. To unsubscribe click here: http://list.wsba.org/u?id=9689257.98490556339430b43adf9753d1310389&n=T&l=diversity-stakeholders&o=1129867 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-1129867-9689257.98490556339430b43adf9753d1310389 at list.wsba.org If you have any questions, or wish to change your email address, please contact the WSBA List Administrator. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1303 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 10:05:39 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:05:39 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Accessibility of Concordance Message-ID: Folks, At work, I have to use Concordance. Its key attribute is that it enables you to search for the content of documents, as opposed to their title alone which are on the computer. I am unable to access its tabs, such as the one containing the search results. Has anyone used it successfully? Sent from my iPhone From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Tue Sep 10 10:51:31 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 04:51:31 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Off Topic - FW: Justice in Aging Seeks Two Attorneys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ff01d567c5$b4f45f70$1edd1e50$@labarrelaw.com> fyi From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Eve Hill Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 7:47 PM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Off Topic - FW: Justice in Aging Seeks Two Attorneys FYI – couple of good jobs in California. Eve Hill Attorney BROWN GOLDSTEIN LEVY 120 E. Baltimore Street, Suite 1700 Baltimore, MD 21202 Tel.: 410.962.1030 x1311 Fax: 410.385.0869 Email: ehill at browngold.com Pronouns: She/her/hers About Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP Brown, Goldstein & Levy, based in Baltimore, Maryland, handles both civil and criminal litigation and has active practices in many other areas of the law, including family law, disability rights, and health care. For more information, visit www.browngold.com. Please note that this Firm uses an e-mail filter which may affect receipt of certain e-mails. If you believe that we have not received your message, please call to confirm receipt of any present and future e-mails. CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential, except where the e-mail states it can be disclosed; it may also be privileged. If received in error, please do not disclose the contents to anyone, but notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail (and any attachments) from your system. Thank you. From: Justice in Aging > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2019 5:28 PM To: Eve Hill > Subject: Justice in Aging Seeks Two Attorneys SECURITY ALERT: This email is from an external source. Justice in Aging is hiring two attorney positions. We are seeking a litigation attorney to work in our Oakland, CA or Los Angeles office and a health attorney to work in our Los Angeles office. The successful litigation attorney candidate will identify, develop, and litigate impact cases primarily on behalf of older adults in California, while also contributing to our litigation across the country. We are looking for someone with five to ten years of experience for this position. The successful health attorney candidate will work closely with legal services attorneys and aging and disability rights professionals across the country, as well as Justice in Aging health team attorneys, to ensure older adults receive the long-term services and supports that they require. This is a one-year position with the possibility of renewal based on funding availability. We are looking for someone with up to four years of experience for this position. Read the full position descriptions. Please share this announcement broadly. Share This Contact Us Justice in Aging (202) 289-6976 info at justiceinaging.org View as webpage Unsubscribe REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. 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From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 14:05:12 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:05:12 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents-solution In-Reply-To: <95204C66-13FA-4B7A-B55E-1C370A24A103@amarjain.com> References: <008d01d565ea$09941530$1cbc3f90$@amarjain.com> <165bd330b77045eabf895ab82950d233@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B8323@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246B83D5@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <95204C66-13FA-4B7A-B55E-1C370A24A103@amarjain.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Amar. I have followed these instructions and I do believe it's improved my performance a bit. On 9/9/19, Amar Jain wrote: > Angie-Was responding to your email in context of what Randy wrote. > > Laura- content objects is a programming concept, but think of it this way. > Your entire document is your parent object, and inside it are sections, > paragraphs, pages, etc. These are your common examples of content objects. > So Jaws tries to count them each time when document loads. > > Regards, > Amar Jain > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:50 PM, Angela Matney wrote: >> >> Amar, sorry, I’m not sure what you’re referring to below with respect to >> 500. I think maybe this is an issue experienced by someone else. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angie >> From: Amar Jain >> Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 10:15 AM >> To: Angela Matney >> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List ; Farber, Randy >> >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large >> documents-solution >> >> >> >> Your understanding is correct Angie. But I am not sure why you are seeing >> 500 as well. Before finding, we can tick ‘match whole words’. This has not >> sorted out the problem fully and I have sent them a pdf of 2024 pages >> where Word completely crashes with Jaws. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 09-Sep-2019, at 7:16 PM, Angela Matney wrote: >> >> Given that the function of a semicolon at the beginning of a line is >> generally to tell a compiler to ignore what follows, my guess is that it’s >> supposed to be at the beginning of the “D” in “Detect.” Having said that, >> I don’t do JAWS scripting, so this is my (semi-)educated guess. I’m going >> to try this, because I think it may help with some other issues I’ve had >> in Word that are hard or impossible to duplicate. >> >> Angie >> >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or >> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Farber, Randy >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 11:08 PM >> To:amarjain at amarjain.com; Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Farber, Randy >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large >> documents-solution >> >> >> >> Hello Amar - >> >> Is the semicolon at the beginning of the line before the "D" or is it at >> the beginning of a second line? >> >> Randy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:06 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: Amar Jain >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large >> documents-solution >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> Here is the solution which will be included in Jaws 2020. >> >> Go into Word, then bring up Script Manager with insert 0. >> Press Control+F and paste in the following: >> DetectObjectsInDocumentCountChange() >> Move your cursor to the beginning of the line and type a semicolon. >> Press control+S to compile, now objects will not be counted every time a >> document is loaded. >> >> Thanks, >> Amar Jain >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Amar Jain >> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 6:53 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Nicole Askins >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> Hi Randy, >> >> I tried all of that including complete pagination. But nothing worked. >> >> The interim solution is to convert the scanned pdf into HTML from Fine >> Reader itself. >> >> Regards, >> Amar Jain >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On 29-Aug-2019, at 11:07 PM, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >> > >> > Similarly, I am having difficulty with narrator in that it has a lag >> > that does not type the actual words that I am typing. For example if I >> > type of word to quickly there are only a few letters. Does anyone have >> > any similar situations? If so how did you resolve it. I am not a Jaws >> > user >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:17 AM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw < >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Hello Amar - I have found that JAWS can take a couple of minutes to >> >> get settled in large documents. For example I was working on a 250 >> >> page document last night it took several minutes at one point for >> >> JAWS to start responding again. If waiting for a few minutes doesn't >> >> work, can you save the document as an RTF or a Word 97 document and >> >> retain the formatting that you need? >> >> >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain >> >> via BlindLaw >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:03 PM >> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> Cc: Amar Jain >> >> Subject: [blindLaw] Word crash only with Jaws in large documents >> >> >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> Using MS Office 2016 in Windows Server 2016 with Citrix Xen app. >> >> While converting documents through Fine Reader which needs to retain >> >> headers and footers of the VDR, the resulting word document goes in >> >> not responding state as soon as we navigate to next page. As >> >> indicated, it only happens while Jaws is running and not with Narrator >> >> / NVDA. >> >> >> >> I have also tried to save this into pdf / html from Word file, but >> >> word is just creating another docx file. If anyone has been through >> >> this and can share a workable solution, then it would be of great >> >> help. >> >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Amar Jain >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> BlindLaw mailing list >> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> BlindLaw: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.co >> >> m >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> BlindLaw mailing list >> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> BlindLaw: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/njaskins%40gmai >> >> l.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > BlindLaw mailing list >> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > BlindLaw: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amarjain%40amarj >> > ain.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > From rfarber at jw.com Wed Sep 11 21:51:37 2019 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:51:37 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] IManage, Workshare, Litera and PDF users-list of accessibility issues and feature requests In-Reply-To: <008001d565e9$723fd930$56bf8b90$@amarjain.com> References: <008001d565e9$723fd930$56bf8b90$@amarjain.com> Message-ID: <27f2694ef1e248e0a42a923388583edf@jw.com> Hello Amar - We use all of these products. We are in the process of upgrading to more current versions, so my IT team will be interested in keeping in contact with you as we move forward in the next several months. I have copied Elizabeth DeLuna who is my IT contact. Randy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via BlindLaw Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:02 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Cc: Amar Jain Subject: [blindLaw] IManage, Workshare, Litera and PDF users-list of accessibility issues and feature requests **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** Hi all, If you are using latest I-Manage 10.2 Worksite, Workshare 9 and above, Litera Systems' Word plugins, and Acrobat Reader / Pro, feel free to let me know the list of issues that you are facing. I am writing to their management and developers in my individual capacity as a lawyer to work towards resolving them. Some of the founders are from India and I can leverage on that. Further, if you are aware of any way to file emails on I-Manage, then let me know please. I know one way is to create Outlook rules. Lastly, I am already in touch with Acrobat team and the head of accessibility of Adobe, in relation to issues faced by blind attorneys / lawyers. Feel free to email me the current issues which you are aware of. Thank you. Legally yours, Amar Jain _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 23:39:50 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 00:39:50 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] IManage, Workshare, Litera and PDF users-list of accessibility issues and feature requests In-Reply-To: <27f2694ef1e248e0a42a923388583edf@jw.com> References: <008001d565e9$723fd930$56bf8b90$@amarjain.com> <27f2694ef1e248e0a42a923388583edf@jw.com> Message-ID: Hello, Amar, Randy, all I would be really grateful if I could please be copied on correspondence regarding these products also. Kind regards Ger On 9/11/19, Farber, Randy via BlindLaw wrote: > Hello Amar - > > We use all of these products. We are in the process of upgrading to more > current versions, so my IT team will be interested in keeping in contact > with you as we move forward in the next several months. I have copied > Elizabeth DeLuna who is my IT contact. > > > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Amar Jain via > BlindLaw > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 9:02 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Cc: Amar Jain > Subject: [blindLaw] IManage, Workshare, Litera and PDF users-list of > accessibility issues and feature requests > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > Hi all, > > > > If you are using latest I-Manage 10.2 Worksite, Workshare 9 and above, > Litera Systems' Word plugins, and Acrobat Reader / Pro, feel free to let me > know the list of issues that you are facing. I am writing to their > management and developers in my individual capacity as a lawyer to work > towards resolving them. Some of the founders are from India and I can > leverage on that. > > > > Further, if you are aware of any way to file emails on I-Manage, then let > me > know please. I know one way is to create Outlook rules. Lastly, I am > already > in touch with Acrobat team and the head of accessibility of Adobe, in > relation to issues faced by blind attorneys / lawyers. Feel free to email > me > the current issues which you are aware of. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Legally yours, > > Amar Jain > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From amatney at loeb.com Thu Sep 12 20:41:06 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:41:06 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Comments in Microsoft Word 2016 Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246C2D95@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Hello everyone, I'm using the latest build of JAWS 2019, and it has helped with some issues related to track-changes. It seems, though, that, at least for me, there are some new issues with comments. I'm not getting consistent reports that one comment is a "reply" to another comment. (To be fair, I can't remember how prevalent this issue was before, but it's definitely still present.) I've also had the experience where I'm trying to delete a particular comment, but that comment is a reply to one that I need to keep, and I end up deleting the original comment in addition to the reply. I've also found that I often have to arrow left one character to interact with a comment after I've selected it via the list that you bring up with control-shift-apostrophe. I didn't have to do this in prior versions of JAWS. Finally, some comments don't seem to show up consistently in the list, and sometimes, it's hard to position the cursor so that I can have them read, despite the fact that JAWS is set to read comments when it encounters them. This is particularly true if the comments are made to text that was revised and track-changes is enabled. Is anyone else having these issues? Does anyone have any suggestions? I may call Vispero / Microsoft re this, but I wanted to get a sense as to whether anyone else is experiencing anything similar. Thanks everyone, Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Sep 13 23:28:16 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:28:16 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Comments in Microsoft Word 2016 In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246C2D95@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246C2D95@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I am no longer able to delete comments in Office 365. Noel -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:41 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Angela Matney Subject: [blindLaw] Comments in Microsoft Word 2016 Hello everyone, I'm using the latest build of JAWS 2019, and it has helped with some issues related to track-changes. It seems, though, that, at least for me, there are some new issues with comments. I'm not getting consistent reports that one comment is a "reply" to another comment. (To be fair, I can't remember how prevalent this issue was before, but it's definitely still present.) I've also had the experience where I'm trying to delete a particular comment, but that comment is a reply to one that I need to keep, and I end up deleting the original comment in addition to the reply. I've also found that I often have to arrow left one character to interact with a comment after I've selected it via the list that you bring up with control-shift-apostrophe. I didn't have to do this in prior versions of JAWS. Finally, some comments don't seem to show up consistently in the list, and sometimes, it's hard to position the cursor so that I can have them read, despite the fact that JAWS is set to read comments when it encounters them. This is particularly true if the comments are made to text that was revised and track-changes is enabled. Is anyone else having these issues? Does anyone have any suggestions? I may call Vispero / Microsoft re this, but I wanted to get a sense as to whether anyone else is experiencing anything similar. Thanks everyone, Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From sanho817 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 06:01:18 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 01:01:18 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Advice Message-ID: Hello, What skills would you recommend to a blind litigator to be absolutely amazing in the courtroom? I have my first moot court competition in a few months and need to overcome my relative lack of braille skills. Warmth, Sanho From sanho817 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 06:03:46 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 01:03:46 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Westlaw Mobile Message-ID: All, For anyone who struggles with Westlaw, please note that you can access its fully accessible mobile site at: m.next.westlaw.com Warmth, Sanho From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 07:19:40 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:19:40 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Slightly offtopic: question about boolean searches Message-ID: Hi all, Since this list consists of highly sophisticated legal practitioners, I thought it would be prudent to ask this question here. I use two main strategies to conduct online advanced searches on Google: A. Putting the search phrases in quotation marks, without separating them with any word or punctuation mark in between. There is only a space in between. B. Using capitalized ‘AND” and “OR” between search terms. When I deploy this second approach, I do not surround the search terms with brackets or anything else. Now, I believe a better way to search without quotation marks is by surrounding the search terms in brackets. However, I don’t quite understand how this works, and what advantage it has over searching for terms without brackets, but while separating them with “AND” and “OR”. Can someone please explain this? Second, how can I actually exclude some terms from search results on Google? Using a capitalized “NOT” before the word does not achieve this. Thank you. Rahul Sent from my iPhone From ainekc at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 07:47:37 2019 From: ainekc at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ine_Kelly-Costello?=) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 09:47:37 +0200 Subject: [blindLaw] Slightly offtopic: question about boolean searches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On google, use - before the word to exclude, attached to the word, and + to include (for single words, same effect as quotes). :) > On 14/09/2019, at 9:19 AM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi all, > > Since this list consists of highly sophisticated legal practitioners, I thought it would be prudent to ask this question here. I use two main strategies to conduct online advanced searches on Google: > A. Putting the search phrases in quotation marks, without separating them with any word or punctuation mark in between. There is only a space in between. > B. Using capitalized ‘AND” and “OR” between search terms. When I deploy this second approach, I do not surround the search terms with brackets or anything else. > > Now, I believe a better way to search without quotation marks is by surrounding the search terms in brackets. However, I don’t quite understand how this works, and what advantage it has over searching for terms without brackets, but while separating them with “AND” and “OR”. Can someone please explain this? > > Second, how can I actually exclude some terms from search results on Google? Using a capitalized “NOT” before the word does not achieve this. Thank you. > > Rahul > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ainekc%40gmail.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Sat Sep 14 09:34:55 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 03:34:55 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] Westlaw Mobile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d56adf$ab7f5e00$027e1a00$@com> I wonder if West Law has a mobile app I can install on my Shiny Android toys? Perhaps I've not been searching correctly, but I can't find any at the Play Store! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From sanho817 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 11:40:33 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 06:40:33 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Westlaw Mobile In-Reply-To: <000001d56adf$ab7f5e00$027e1a00$@com> References: <000001d56adf$ab7f5e00$027e1a00$@com> Message-ID: <24011D64-4DCE-4ADA-A6CF-60B6E2BC8577@gmail.com> Hello, I'm not sure, but there is one for the iphone. I'd imagine there would also be one for Androids given how popular it is. Warmth, Sanho > On Sep 14, 2019, at 4:34 AM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via BlindLaw wrote: > > I wonder if West Law has a mobile app I can install on my Shiny Android > toys? Perhaps I've not been searching correctly, but I can't find any at > the Play Store! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 10:10:09 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:10:09 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome Message-ID: All, Writing with yet another Jaws question. Within the past few weeks, something very strange, and very annoying, has started happening while using Chrome and Jaws. Jaws will just stop speaking altogether. Repeatedly. I have to keep tabbing in and out of the window, and I often lose my place as well. This is introduced a huge time suck into legal research. Note, I know WL prefers IE, which is rich considering how out of date the browser is, but I use Chrome (which doesn't crash every 30 minutes and can actually open PDFs). I've never had this problem before and it isn't just happening on WL. Is anyone else experiencing this/ have people either found a work-around or contacted Vispero about it? Laura From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 12:11:37 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:11:37 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While I have not faced this problem, Laura, I should perhaps mention that I use Firefox most of the time. I do not face either of the two problems you outlined, or the problem of JAWS going silent, while using Firefox. Best, Rahul Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 16, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > All, > > Writing with yet another Jaws question. Within the past few weeks, > something very strange, and very annoying, has started happening while > using Chrome and Jaws. Jaws will just stop speaking altogether. > Repeatedly. I have to keep tabbing in and out of the window, and I > often lose my place as well. This is introduced a huge time suck into > legal research. Note, I know WL prefers IE, which is rich considering > how out of date the browser is, but I use Chrome (which doesn't crash > every 30 minutes and can actually open PDFs). I've never had this > problem before and it isn't just happening on WL. Is anyone else > experiencing this/ have people either found a work-around or contacted > Vispero about it? > > Laura > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 16 15:25:53 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:25:53 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] U.S. Department of Education Office For Civil Rights Philadelphia: Vacancy Announcement for Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 & Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 in Philadelphia Regional Office Message-ID: See below the link for OCR USAJOBS vacancy announcements for an Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 & Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 in Philadelphia Regional Office. The opening date is 09/16/2019 and closing date is 09/30/2019. Announcement(s): PHILA-OCR-2019-0004 Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 (All Sources) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545597700 PHILA-OCR-2019-0005 Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 (DE) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545597200 PHILA-OCR-2019-0006 Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 (MP) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545596600 From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Sep 16 15:26:55 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:26:55 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] U.S. Department of Education Office For Civil Rights Atlanta: Vacancy Announcement for Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 & Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 in Atlanta Regional Office Message-ID: See below the link for OCR USAJOBS vacancy announcements for an Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 & Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 in Atlanta Regional Office. The opening date is 09/16/2019 and closing date is 09/30/2019. Announcement(s): ATL-OCR-2019-0003 Supervisory General Attorney (Team Leader), GS-0905-14 (All Sources) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545598100 ATL-OCR-2019-0004 Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 (DE) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545599300 ATL-OCR-2019-0005 Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Team Leader), GS-0360-14 (MP) https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/PrintPreview/545601000 From tim at timeldermusic.com Mon Sep 16 15:46:14 2019 From: tim at timeldermusic.com (tim at timeldermusic.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:46:14 -0700 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b301d56ca5$df5941b0$9e0bc510$@timeldermusic.com> Recently I observed some very sluggish behavior with the two programs. But it seems intermittent. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Wolk Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 3:10 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome All, Writing with yet another Jaws question. Within the past few weeks, something very strange, and very annoying, has started happening while using Chrome and Jaws. Jaws will just stop speaking altogether. Repeatedly. I have to keep tabbing in and out of the window, and I often lose my place as well. This is introduced a huge time suck into legal research. Note, I know WL prefers IE, which is rich considering how out of date the browser is, but I use Chrome (which doesn't crash every 30 minutes and can actually open PDFs). I've never had this problem before and it isn't just happening on WL. Is anyone else experiencing this/ have people either found a work-around or contacted Vispero about it? Laura From BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com Mon Sep 16 16:43:55 2019 From: BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com (Brian Unitt) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:43:55 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a4e002398ee4e52b31ce0f641c2aa4e@holsteinlaw.com> Hi Laura, I am not having that issueFor reference, . I am using: Jaws 2019, version 2019.1907.42 Chrome: Version 77.0.3865.75 (Official Build) (64-bit) I access Westlaw via text.westlaw.com Brian Brian C. Unitt Certified Specialist, Appellate Law The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization Holstein, Taylor and Unitt A Professional Corporation 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103 Riverside, CA 92501 Tel: 951-682-7030 Fax: 951-684-8061 www.holsteinlaw.com mailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 3:10 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: [blindLaw] Jaw and Google Chrome All, Writing with yet another Jaws question. Within the past few weeks, something very strange, and very annoying, has started happening while using Chrome and Jaws. Jaws will just stop speaking altogether. Repeatedly. I have to keep tabbing in and out of the window, and I often lose my place as well. This is introduced a huge time suck into legal research. Note, I know WL prefers IE, which is rich considering how out of date the browser is, but I use Chrome (which doesn't crash every 30 minutes and can actually open PDFs). I've never had this problem before and it isn't just happening on WL. Is anyone else experiencing this/ have people either found a work-around or contacted Vispero about it? Laura _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/brianunitt%40holsteinlaw.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Tue Sep 17 13:07:18 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:07:18 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Brown Goldstein & Levy 2020 Disability Rights Fellowship Posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d56d58$d5c89660$8159c320$@labarrelaw.com> Hello everyone, please see the below. From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 4:40 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Brown Goldstein & Levy 2020 Disability Rights Fellowship Posting Colleagues: I hope you will assist us in finding the right candidate for this Fellowship. Best to all and thanks, Sharon Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum Managing Partner BROWN GOLDSTEIN LEVY 120 E. Baltimore Street, Suite 1700 Baltimore, MD 21202 Tel.: 410.962.1030 x1326 Fax: 410.385.0869 Email: skw at browngold.com About Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP About Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP Brown, Goldstein & Levy, based in Baltimore, Maryland, handles both civil and criminal litigation and has active practices in many other area of the law, including family law, disability rights, and health care. For more information, visit www.browngold.com. Please note that this Firm uses an e-mail filter that may affect receipt of certain e-mails. If you believe that we have not received your message, please call to confirm receipt of any present and future e-mails. CONFIDENTIALITY: This email and any attachments are confidential, except where the e-mail states it can be disclosed; It may also be privileged. If received in error, please do not disclose the contents to anyone, but notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail (and any attachments) from your system. Thank you. REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2020 Disability Rights Fellowship Posting ACE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 576123 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jtfetter at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 13:17:32 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:17:32 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Brown Goldstein & Levy 2020 Disability Rights Fellowship Posting In-Reply-To: <000001d56d58$d5c89660$8159c320$@labarrelaw.com> References: <000001d56d58$d5c89660$8159c320$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <9b84e667-4ba7-ba04-1bc9-15c4413729dc@yahoo.com> All, If you are interested in this fellowship, please do not hesitate to reach out to me off list. I am the current fellow and am happy to share my experiences and discuss the enormous benefit this opportunity has provided to my career. On 9/17/2019 9:07 AM, Scott C. LaBarre via BlindLaw wrote: > Hello everyone, please see the below. > > > > From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 4:40 AM > To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU > Subject: [DRBA] Brown Goldstein & Levy 2020 Disability Rights Fellowship Posting > > > > Colleagues: > > > > I hope you will assist us in finding the right candidate for this Fellowship. > > > > Best to all and thanks, Sharon > > > > > > Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum > > Managing Partner > > > BROWN GOLDSTEIN LEVY > > > 120 E. Baltimore Street, Suite 1700 > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > Tel.: 410.962.1030 x1326 > > > Fax: 410.385.0869 > > > Email: skw at browngold.com > > About Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > About Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, based in Baltimore, Maryland, handles both civil and criminal litigation and has active practices in many other area of the law, including family law, disability rights, and health care. For more information, visit www.browngold.com. > > > > Please note that this Firm uses an e-mail filter that may affect receipt of certain e-mails. If you believe that we have not received your message, please call to confirm receipt of any present and future e-mails. > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY: This email and any attachments are confidential, except where the e-mail states it can be disclosed; It may also be privileged. If received in error, please do not disclose the contents to anyone, but notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail (and any attachments) from your system. Thank you. > > > > > > REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. > DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select ???Burton Blatt Institute Fund??? from the ???My gift is designated to??? drop down menu and indicate ???DRBA??? in the ???Gift is to be used for??? box. > BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From howardadelsberg at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 16:59:13 2019 From: howardadelsberg at gmail.com (Howard Adelsberg) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:59:13 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Disability Benefits Question Message-ID: Does anyone on the list handle disability law that I may ask a quick question about benefits? -- Howard M. Adelsberg [image: Mailtrack] Sender notified by Mailtrack 09/17/19, 12:59:07 PM From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Tue Sep 17 20:17:56 2019 From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:17:56 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Disability Benefits Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101d56d94$ffc95670$ff5c0350$@nyc.rr.com> Hi Howard: I don't do it for a living, but I know a thing or two. Please feel free to contact me off list. Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 12:59 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Howard Adelsberg Subject: [blindLaw] Disability Benefits Question Does anyone on the list handle disability law that I may ask a quick question about benefits? -- Howard M. Adelsberg [image: Mailtrack] Sender notified by Mailtrack 09/17/19, 12:59:07 PM _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Sep 18 15:49:23 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:49:23 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil Rights Program Manager in Washington, D.C., GS-360-15 & GS-905-15 Metro Office Message-ID: See the below links for OCR USAJOBS vacancy announcements for a Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Program Manager), GS-0360-15, and Supervisory General Attorney (Program Manager), GS-0905-15 in the Metro Office in Washington, DC. The Announcements opened on 09/18/2019 and closes on 10/01/2019. OCR-HQ-2019-0065, Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Program Manager) (DE), GS-0360-15 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545990400 OCR-HQ-2019-0066, Supervisory Equal Opportunity Specialist (Program Manager) (MP), GS-0360-15 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545991200 OCR-HQ-2019-0067, Supervisory General Attorney (Program Manager) (All Sources), GS-0905-15 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545991400 Thanks. From davant1958 at gmail.com Thu Sep 19 23:06:22 2019 From: davant1958 at gmail.com (davant1958 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:06:22 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: ABA & AUWCL Disability Symposium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18ff01d56f3e$db06d050$911470f0$@gmail.com> FYI. Denise R. Avant, Esq. President, National Federation of the Blind of Illinois 773-991-8050 Live the life you want. For more information about NFBI, Go to www.nfbofillinois.org From: Allbright, Amy Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 3:39 PM To: Shapiro, Paula ; Carol Steinberg ; Denise Avant ; Elizabeth Kelley ; Elizabeth Pendo ; Greenberger, Evan ; Joseph Espo ; Lydia Brown ; Marc Maurer ; Michael Sabella ; Randi Starrett ; Robert Dinerstein ; Robert Tudisco ; Sarah Redfield ; Sean Pevsner ; Alan Rachlin ; Alex Hurder ; Belinda Bacon ; Beverly Quail ; Bob Cohen ; Charlie Brown ; Chris Kuczynski ; Diana Flynn ; Ed Marquette ; Eileen Sullivan ; Guy Arcidiacono (Guy.Arcidiacono at suffolkcountyny.gov) ; Hugh Wellons ; Jim Carr ; Julian Mann ; Paul Johnson ; Peggy Foran ; Sowah, Helena ; Stephen Zollman (szollman at hotmail.com) ; Tommy Smith Subject: ABA & AUWCL Disability Symposium Please help us spread the word: The ABA Commission on Disability Rights is thrilled to be co-hosting a symposium next month with American University's Washington College of Law, Creating Opportunities for Law Students with Disabilities in the 21st Century: Inclusivity on Campus and in the Workplace. This symposium is designed to bring together law students, legal employers, and law school deans and other professionals who have an interest in promoting disability diversity and inclusion on campuses and at work. Panelists will examine the current state of affairs, including challenges facing law students and lawyers with disabilities. Topics will include reasonable accommodations, pros and cons of disclosing one's disability to prospective employers, choosing a career, and situations persons with disabilities encounter in law school and the workplace and ways to address them. The keynote speaker, the Hon. Tony Coelho, will discuss the need for persons with disabilities on the bench. The symposium will be held on the WCL campus in Washington, DC on October 8, 2019. All are welcome to register to attend, and law students can register free of charge. The registration page, as well as information on the program, can be found at the event web portal: https://www.wcl.american.edu/news-events/events/detail/8087/. You are also welcome to visit the Commission on Disability Rights' web page at http://ambar.org/disability for further information on the Commission and its projects. Amy L. Allbright Director Commission on Disability Rights (CDR) Mail Stop 11.0 American Bar Association (ABA) 1050 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 400 Washington, DC 20036 T: 202.662.1575 F: 202.442.3439 Amy.Allbright at americanbar.org http://www.americanbar.org/groups/diversity/disabilityrights From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 20 12:52:29 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 06:52:29 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048901d56fb2$4778f970$d66aec50$@labarrelaw.com> FYI From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 6:33 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Good morning, Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans, LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities. We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. In addition to the below job opportunities, the United States Trustee Program is accepting applications for the position of U.S. Trustee for Region 9 in Cleveland, OH. For more information on how to apply, please see https://www.justice.gov/ust/file/region9ustjobannouncement.pdf/download. Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization Environment and Natural Resources Division (ENRD) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 20, 2019 Hiring Organization United States Parole Commission (USPC) Job Title Attorney Advisor State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 19, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 19, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 19, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Rhode Island Job Title Assistant United States Attorney - Appellate State Rhode Island Posted/ Updated September 19, 2019 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Law Student Volunteer (Volunteer Legal Intern) State Minnesota Posted/ Updated September 18, 2019 Hiring Organization United States Attorney's Office (USAO) Job Title ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY State Alabama Posted/ Updated September 18, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (Criminal) State Texas Posted/ Updated September 18, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (Criminal) State Texas Posted/ Updated September 18, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (Criminal) State Texas Posted/ Updated September 18, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Attorney Advisor (International) / International Observer, Albania State Posted/ Updated September 17, 2019 Hiring Organization Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA) Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Spring 2020 State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 17, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Middle District of Florida Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (Criminal) State Florida Posted/ Updated September 17, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Trial Attorney/Consumer Protection Branch State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 17, 2019 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Volunteer Law Intern, Spring 2020 State Hawaii Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year State Texas Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer State Texas Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Office of the Pardon Attorney (Pardon) Job Title Attorney Advisor State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Arizona Job Title Civil Division, Law Clerk, Spring 2020 State Arizona Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Arizona Job Title Tucson, Law Clerk, Spring 2020 State Arizona Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Antitrust Division (ATR) Job Title Trial Attorney State California Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Arizona Job Title Criminal Division, Law Clerk, Spring 2020 State Arizona Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of North Carolina Job Title Attorney State North Carolina Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year- Appellate Staff State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Summer- Appellate Staff State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Summer- Consumer Protection Branch State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year- Consumer Protection Branch State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of New Mexico Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer State New Mexico Posted/ Updated September 16, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Northern District of Texas Job Title ATTORNEY State Texas Posted/ Updated September 13, 2019 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 20 13:08:38 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:08:38 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: EEOC News: Mercy Medical Center To Pay $570, 000 To Settle EEOC Disability Discrimnation Lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d56fb4$8b7dede0$a279c9a0$@labarrelaw.com> Tim Elder and I have worked on this case since 2015 and it ended quite well this week with an excellent consent decree and substantial settlement. They fired our client, Alina, because they believed it would have been too dangerous for a blind person to work in a kitchen. Best, Scott From: Linda Li Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:35 AM To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com Subject: EEOC News: Mercy Medical Center To Pay $570,000 To Settle EEOC Disability Discrimnation Lawsuit FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: September 19, 2019 CONTACTS: Roberta Steele, Regional Attorney (415) 522-3011 Marcia Mitchell, Supervisory Trial Attorney (415) 522-3143 Ami Sanghvi, Senior Trial Attorney (415) 516-1939 MERCY MEDICAL CENTER TO PAY $570,000 TO SETTLE EEOC DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION LAWSUIT Dignity Health Refused to Accommodate and Then Fired Employee With Vision Loss, Federal Agency Charged REDDING, Calif. – Dignity Health, which operates Mercy Medical Center in Redding, Calif., will pay $570,000 and take important steps to prevent future discrimination to settle a disability dis­crimination lawsuit filed by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the federal agency announced today. The EEOC’s suit charged that the medical center failed to accommodate Alina Sorling, a 10-year cafeteria employee who had survived a severe illness that left her with vision loss. Sorling’s work as a food service technician involved tasks such as cashiering, grilling, cleaning and stocking. In 2015, after a successful rehabilitation where she was trained to proficiency in kitchen skills, Sorling sought to return to work and informed her employer of multiple accommodations that she or the California Department of Rehabilitation could provide to allow her to perform her job duties. Dignity Health rejected the suggestions and fired Sorling. Such alleged conduct violates the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which prohibits employers from discriminating based on disability and requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees unless it would be an undue hardship. After an investigation by EEOC Investigators Patricia Finnegan and Malinda Tuazon and after first attempting to reach a pre-litigation settlement through its conciliation process, the EEOC filed suit (CIV# 3:18-cv-04135) in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California. Sorling was also independently represented by other counsel, Timothy Elder and Scott LaBarre. The three-year consent decree settling the lawsuit provides $570,000 to Sorling in lost wages, compensatory damages and attorneys’ fees, and requires Dignity Health to update its policies, proce­dures and training. The company will provide anti-discrimination training to all leadership and emp­loyees; make its policies available to all employees; report to the EEOC all complaints of disability discrimination for the duration of the consent decree; and post a notice for employees about the decree and employees’ rights under federal law. “Speaking out against discrimination at work is hard, but I am really glad I did,” said Sorling. “I am hopeful this settlement will help to make the medical center more open to workers with vision loss and other disabilities. I am thankful to the EEOC and my attorneys for standing by me and seeing this through.” “The EEOC commends Dignity Health for resolving this matter quickly and amicably and demonstrating its commitment to complying with the law,” said EEOC Regional Attorney Roberta Steele. “The company will ensure that it has effective policies and practices in place about the ADA and the processing of requests for reasonable accommodations that are communicated effectively to emp­loyees.” EEOC Trial Attorney Ami Sanghvi said, “The ADA requires a two-way interactive process between the employer and employee. This consent decree provides for such a process, which will help all employees with disabilities who need reasonable accommodations to perform their jobs and stay employed.” EEOC Enforcement Manager Dana Johnson added, “Violations of the ADA continue to be a problem in today’s workplaces. Dignity Health worked collaboratively with the EEOC to resolve this lawsuit by a consent decree that shows its willingness to comply with the ADA.” According to company information, Dignity Health, headquartered in San Francisco, is the fifth-largest health system in the United States and comprises more than 60,000 caregivers and staff, deliver­ing care to communities across 21 states. Dignity Health is the largest hospital provider in California and operates Mercy Medical Center in Redding. The EEOC advances opportunity in the workplace by enforcing federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. More information is available at www.eeoc.gov . Stay connected with the latest EEOC news by subscribing to our email updates. # # # If you would rather not receive future communications from Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, let us know by clicking here. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, San Francisco District Office 450 Golden Gate Avenue, POB 36025, 5th Floor West, San Francisco, CA 94102 United States From sanho817 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 14:44:38 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:44:38 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Message-ID: All, Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. Warmth, Sanho From jtfetter at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 14:52:51 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:52:51 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp On 9/23/2019 10:44 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > All, > > Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is > extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's > website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy > already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From seifs at umich.edu Mon Sep 23 14:55:28 2019 From: seifs at umich.edu (Seif-Eldeen Saqallah) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:55:28 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. Some might be better formatted than this, however. Sincerely, Seif On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > All, > > Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is > extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's > website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy > already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu > -- Seif Saqallah University of Michigan Juris Doctor/ Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 248-325-7091 seifs at umich.edu Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of Michigan Law School 3120 Jeffries Hall 701 South State Street Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 www.law.umich.edu/ITC The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including attachments, if any). -------------- next part -------------- FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE DECEMBER 1, 2016 UNUM E PLURIBUS Printed for the use of THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 114TH CONGRESS " COMMITTEE PRINT ! No. 8 2nd Session FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE DECEMBER 1, 2016 UNUM E PLURIBUS Printed for the use of THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE WASHINGTON : 2016 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512�1800; DC area (202) 512�1800 Fax: (202) 512�2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402�0001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., Wisconsin LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas STEVE CHABOT, Ohio DARRELL E. ISSA, California J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia STEVE KING, Iowa TRENT FRANKS, Arizona LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas JIM JORDAN, Ohio TED POE, Texas JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania TREY GOWDY, South Carolina RAU� L LABRADOR, Idaho BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas DOUG COLLINS, Georgia RON DeSANTIS, Florida MIMI WALTERS, California KEN BUCK, Colorado JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas DAVE TROTT, Michigan MIKE BISHOP, Michigan JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan JERROLD NADLER, New York ZOE LOFGREN, California SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas STEVE COHEN, Tennessee HENRY C. ��HANK�� JOHNSON, JR., Georgia PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico JUDY CHU, California TED DEUTCH, Florida LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois KAREN BASS, California CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana SUZAN DelBENE, Washington HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island SCOTT PETERS, California SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff & General Counsel PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel (II) FOREWORD This document contains the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure together with forms, as amended to December 1, 2016. The rules have been promulgated and amended by the United States Supreme Court pursuant to law, and further amended by Acts of Congress. This document has been prepared by the Committee in response to the need for an official up-to-date document containing the latest amendments to the rules. For the convenience of the user, where a rule has been amended a reference to the date the amendment was promulgated and the date the amendment became effective follows the text of the rule. The Committee on Rules of Practice and Procedure and the Advisory Committee on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Judicial Conference of the United States, prepared notes explaining the purpose and intent of the amendments to the rules. The Committee Notes may be found in the Appendix to Title 28, United States Code, following the particular rule to which they relate. Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary. DECEMBER 1, 2016. (III) (V) AUTHORITY FOR PROMULGATION OF RULES TITLE 28, UNITED STATES CODE � 2072. Rules of procedure and evidence; power to prescribe (a) The Supreme Court shall have the power to prescribe general rules of practice and procedure and rules of evidence for cases in the United States district courts (including proceedings before magistrate judges thereof) and courts of appeals. (b) Such rules shall not abridge, enlarge or modify any substantive right. All laws in conflict with such rules shall be of no further force or effect after such rules have taken effect. (c) Such rules may define when a ruling of a district court is final for the purposes of appeal under section 1291 of this title. (Added Pub. L. 100�702, title IV, � 401(a), Nov. 19, 1988, 102 Stat. 4648, eff. Dec. 1, 1988; amended Pub. L. 101�650, title III, �� 315, 321, Dec. 1, 1990, 104 Stat. 5115, 5117.) � 2073. Rules of procedure and evidence; method of prescribing (a)(1) The Judicial Conference shall prescribe and publish the procedures for the consideration of proposed rules under this section. (2) The Judicial Conference may authorize the appointment of committees to assist the Conference by recommending rules to be prescribed under sections 2072 and 2075 of this title. Each such committee shall consist of members of the bench and the professional bar, and trial and appellate judges. (b) The Judicial Conference shall authorize the appointment of a standing committee on rules of practice, procedure, and evidence under subsection (a) of this section. Such standing committee shall review each recommendation of any other committees so appointed and recommend to the Judicial Conference rules of practice, procedure, and evidence and such changes in rules proposed by a committee appointed under subsection (a)(2) of this section as may be necessary to maintain consistency and otherwise promote the interest of justice. (c)(1) Each meeting for the transaction of business under this chapter by any committee appointed under this section shall be open to the public, except when the committee so meeting, in open session and with a majority present, determines that it is in the public interest that all or part of the remainder of the meeting on that day shall be closed to the public, and states the reason for so closing the meeting. Minutes of each meeting for the transaction of business under this chapter shall be maintained by the committee and made available to the public, except that any portion of such minutes, relating to a closed meeting and made available to the public, may contain such deletions as may be necessary to avoid frustrating the purposes of closing the meeting. VI AUTHORITY FOR PROMULGATION OF RULES (2) Any meeting for the transaction of business under this chapter, by a committee appointed under this section, shall be preceded by sufficient notice to enable all interested persons to attend. (d) In making a recommendation under this section or under section 2072 or 2075, the body making that recommendation shall provide a proposed rule, an explanatory note on the rule, and a written report explaining the body�s action, including any minority or other separate views. (e) Failure to comply with this section does not invalidate a rule prescribed under section 2072 or 2075 of this title. (Added Pub. L. 100�702, title IV, � 401(a), Nov. 19, 1988, 102 Stat. 4649, eff. Dec. 1, 1988; amended Pub. L. 103�394, title I, � 104(e), Oct. 22, 1994, 108 Stat. 4110.) � 2074. Rules of procedure and evidence; submission to Congress; effective date (a) The Supreme Court shall transmit to the Congress not later than May 1 of the year in which a rule prescribed under section 2072 is to become effective a copy of the proposed rule. Such rule shall take effect no earlier than December 1 of the year in which such rule is so transmitted unless otherwise provided by law. The Supreme Court may fix the extent such rule shall apply to proceedings then pending, except that the Supreme Court shall not require the application of such rule to further proceedings then pending to the extent that, in the opinion of the court in which such proceedings are pending, the application of such rule in such proceedings would not be feasible or would work injustice, in which event the former rule applies. (b) Any such rule creating, abolishing, or modifying an evidentiary privilege shall have no force or effect unless approved by Act of Congress. (Added Pub. L. 100�702, title IV, � 401(a), Nov. 19, 1988, 102 Stat. 4649, eff. Dec. 1, 1988.) (VII) HISTORICAL NOTE The Supreme Court prescribes rules of civil procedure for the district courts pursuant to section 2072 of Title 28, United States Code, as enacted by Title IV ��Rules Enabling Act�� of Pub. L. 100�702 (approved Nov. 19, 1988, 102 Stat. 4648), effective December 1, 1988. Pursuant to section 2074 of Title 28, the Supreme Court transmits to Congress (not later than May 1 of the year in which a rule prescribed under section 2072 is to become effective) a copy of the proposed rule. The rule takes effect no earlier than December 1 of the year in which the rule is transmitted unless otherwise provided by law. By act of June 19, 1934, ch. 651, 48 Stat. 1064 (subsequently 28 United States Code, � 2072), the Supreme Court was authorized to prescribe general rules of civil procedure for the district courts. The rules, and subsequent amendments, were not to take effect until (1) they had been first reported to Congress by the Attorney General at the beginning of a regular session and (2) after the close of that session. Under a 1949 amendment to 28 U.S.C., � 2072, the Chief Justice of the United States, instead of the Attorney General, reported the rules to Congress. In 1950, section 2072 was further amended so that amendments to the rules could be reported to Congress not later than May 1 each year and become effective 90 days after being reported. Effective December 1, 1988, section 2072 was repealed and supplanted by new sections 2072 and 2074, see first paragraph of Historical Note above. The original rules, pursuant to act of June 19, 1934, were adopted by order of the Court on December 20, 1937, transmitted to Congress by the Attorney General on January 3, 1938, and became effective September 16, 1938 (308 U.S. 645; Cong. Rec., vol. 83, pt. 1, p. 13, Exec. Comm. 905; H. Doc. 460 and H. Doc. 588, 75th Cong.) Rule 81(a)(6) was abrogated by order of the Court on December 28, 1939, transmitted to Congress by the Attorney General on January 3, 1940, effective April 3, 1941 (308 U.S. 642; Cong. Rec., vol. 86, pt. 1, p. 14, Exec. Comm. 1152). Further amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated December 27, 1946, transmitted to Congress by the Attorney General on January 3, 1947, and became effective March 19, 1948 (329 U.S. 839; Cong. Rec., vol. 93, pt. 1, p. 41, Exec. Comm. 32; H. Doc. 46 and H. Doc. 473, 80th Cong.). The amendments affected Rules 6, 7, 12, 13, 14, 17, 24, 26, 27, 28, 33, 34, 36, 41, 45, 52, 54, 56, 58, 59, 60, 62, 65, 66, 68, 73, 75, 77, 79, 81, 84, and 86, and Forms 17, 20, 22, and 25. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated December 29, 1948, transmitted to Congress by the Attorney General on January 3, 1949, and became effective October 20, 1949 (335 U.S. 919; Cong. Rec., vol. 95, pt. 1, p. 94, Exec. Comm. 24; H. VIII HISTORICAL NOTE Doc. 33, 81st Cong.). The amendments affected Rules 1, 17, 22, 24, 25, 27, 37, 45, 57, 60, 62, 65, 66, 67, 69, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 79, 81, 82, and 86, and Forms 1, 19, 22, 23, and 27. Amendment to Rule 81(a)(7) and new Rule 71A and Forms 28 and 29 were adopted by the Court by order dated April 30, 1951, transmitted to Congress on May 1, 1951, and became effective August 1, 1951 (341 U.S. 959; Cong. Rec., vol. 97, pt. 4, p. 4666, Exec. Comm. 414; H. Doc. 121, 82d Cong.). Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 17, 1961, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on April 18, 1961, and became effective July 19, 1961 (368 U.S. 1009; Cong. Rec., vol. 107, pt. 5, p. 6524, Exec. Comm. 821). The amendments affected Rules 25, 54, 62, and 86, and Forms 2 and 19. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated January 21, 1963, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice (374 U.S. 861; Cong. Rec., vol. 109, pt. 1, p. 1037, Exec. Comm. 267; H. Doc. 48, 88th Cong.), and became effective July 1, 1963, by order of the Court dated March 18, 1963 (374 U.S. 861; Cong. Rec., vol. 109, pt. 4, p. 4639, Exec. Comm. 569; H. Doc. 48, pt. 2, 88th Cong.; see also H. Doc. 67, 88th Cong.). The amendments affected Rules 4, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30, 41, 49, 50, 52, 56, 58, 71A, 77, 79, 81, and 86, and Forms 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 18, 21, 22�A, and 22�B, and added Forms 30, 31, and 32. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated February 28, 1966, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (383 U.S. 1029; Cong. Rec., vol. 112, pt. 4, p. 4229, Exec. Comm. 2094; H. Doc. 391, 89th Cong.), and became effective July 1, 1966. The amendments affected Rules 1, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, 26, 38, 41, 42, 43, 44, 47, 53, 59, 65, 68, 73, 74, 75, 81, and 82, and Forms 2 and 15, and added Rules 23.1, 23.2, 44.1, and 65.1, and Supplementary Rules A, B, C, D, E, and F for certain Admiralty and Maritime claims. The amendments govern all proceedings in actions brought after they became effective and also all further proceedings in actions then pending, except to the extent that in the opinion of the Court an application in a particular action then pending would not be feasible or would work injustice, in which event the former procedure applies. In addition, Rule 6(c) of the Rules of Civil Procedure promulgated by the Court on December 20, 1937, effective September 16, 1938; Rule 2 of the Rules for Practice and Procedure under section 25 of an act to amend and consolidate the acts respecting copyright, approved March 4, 1909, promulgated by the Court on June 1, 1909, effective July 1, 1909; and the Rules of Practice in Admiralty and Maritime Cases, promulgated by the Court on December 6, 1920, effective March 7, 1921, as revised, amended and supplemented, were rescinded, effective July 1, 1966. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated December 4, 1967, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on January 15, 1968 (389 U.S. 1121; Cong. Rec., vol. 114, pt. 1, p. 113, Exec. Comm. 1361; H. Doc. 204, 90th Cong.), and became effective July 1, 1968. The amendments affected Rules 6(b), 9(h), 41(a)(1), 77(d), 81(a), and abrogated the chapter heading ��IX. Appeals�� and Rules 72�76, and Form 27. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated March 30, 1970, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice HISTORICAL NOTE IX on the same day (398 U.S. 977; Cong. Rec., vol. 116, pt. 7, p. 9861, Exec. Comm. 1839; H. Doc. 91�291), and became effective July 1, 1970. The amendments affected Rules 5(a), 9(h), 26, 29 to 37, 45(d), and 69(a), and Form 24. On March 1, 1971, the Court adopted additional amendments, which were transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (401 U.S. 1017; Cong. Rec., vol. 117, pt. 4, p. 4629, Exec. Comm. 341; H. Doc. 92�57), and became effective July 1, 1971. The amendments affected Rules 6(a), 27(a)(4), 30(b)(6), 77(c), and 81(a)(2). Further amendments were proposed by the Court in its orders dated November 20 and December 18, 1972, and transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on February 5, 1973 (409 U.S. 1132 and 419 U.S. 1133; Cong. Rec., vol. 119, pt. 3, p. 3247, Exec. Comm. 359; H. Doc. 93�46). Although these amendments were to have become effective July 1, 1973, Public Law 93�12 (approved March 30, 1973, 87 Stat. 9) provided that the proposed amendments ��shall have no force or effect except to the extent, and with such amendments, as they may be expressly approved by Act of Congress.�� Section 3 of Public Law 93�595 (approved January 2, 1975, 88 Stat. 1949) approved the amendments proposed by the Court, to be effective July 1, 1975. The amendments affected Rules 30(c), 43, and 44.1, and abrogated Rule 32(c). On April 29, 1980, the Court adopted additional amendments, which were transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (446 U.S. 995; Cong. Rec., vol. 126, pt. 8, p. 9535, Exec. Comm. 4260; H. Doc. 96�306), and became effective August 1, 1980. The amendments affected Rules 4, 5, 26, 28, 30, 32, 33, 34, 37, and 45. Section 205(a) and (b) of Public Law 96�481 (approved October 21, 1980, 94 Stat. 2330) repealed Rule 37(f) and deleted the corresponding item from the Table of Contents, to be effective October 1, 1981. Amendments to Rule 4 were adopted by the Court by order dated April 28, 1982, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (456 U.S. 1013; Cong. Rec., vol. 128, pt. 6, p. 8191, Exec. Comm. 3822; H. Doc. 97�173), and became effective August 1, 1982. However, Public Law 97�227 (approved August 2, 1982, 96 Stat. 246) provided that the amendments to Rule 4 shall take effect on October 1, 1983, unless previously approved, disapproved, or modified by Act of Congress, and further provided that this Act shall be effective as of August 1, 1982, but shall not apply to the service of process that takes place between August 1, 1982, and the date of enactment of this Act [August 2, 1982]. Section 5 of Public Law 97�462 (approved January 12, 1983, 96 Stat. 2530) provided that the amendments to Rule 4 the effective date of which was delayed by Public Law 97�227 shall not take effect. Sections 2 to 4 of Public Law 97�462 amended Rule 4(a), (c) to (e), and (g), added Rule 4(j), and added Form 18�A in the Appendix of Forms, effective 45 days after enactment of Public Law 97�462 [February 26, 1983]. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 28, 1983, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (461 U.S. 1095; Cong. Rec., vol. 129, pt. 8, p. 10479, Exec. Comm. 1027; H. Doc. 98�54), and became effective August 1, 1983. The amendments included new Rules 26(g), 53(f), 72 through X HISTORICAL NOTE 76 and new Official Forms 33 and 34, and amendments to Rules 6(b), 7(b), 11, 16, 26(a), (b), 52(a), 53(a), (b), (c), and 67. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 29, 1985, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (471 U.S. 1153; Cong. Rec., vol. 131, pt. 7, p. 9826, Exec. Comm. 1156; H. Doc. 99�63), and became effective August 1, 1985. The amendments affected Rules 6(a), 45(d)(2), 52(a), 71A(h), and 83, Official Form 18�A, and Rules B(1), C(3), and E(4)(f) of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated March 2, 1987, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (480 U.S. 953; Cong. Rec., vol. 133, pt. 4, p. 4484, Exec. Comm. 714; H. Doc. 100�40), and became effective August 1, 1987. The amendments affected Rules 4(b), (d)(1), (e), (i)(1), 5(b), (e), 6(e), 8(a), (b), (e)(2), 9(a), 11, 12(a), (b), (e) to (g), 13(a), (e), (f), 14, 15, 16(f), 17, 18, 19(a), (b), 20(b), 22(1), 23(c)(2), 23.1, 24(a), 25(b), (d), 26(b)(3), (e)(1), (2), (f)(5), (g), 27(a)(1), (b), 28(b), 30(b)(1), (2), (4), (6), (7), (c), (e), (f)(1), (g), 31(a), (b), 32(a)(4), 34(a), 35(a), (b)(1), (2), 36, 37(a)(2), (b)(2), (c), (d), (g), 38(c), (d), 41(a)(2), (b), 43(f), 44(a)(1), 44.1, 45(c), (f), 46, 49(a), 50(b), (d), 51, 53(a), (c) to (e)(1), (3), (5), 54(c), 55(a), (b), (e), 56(a), (b), (e) to (g), 60(b), 62(f), 63, 65(b), 65.1, 68, 69, 71, 71A(d)(2), (3)(ii), (e) to (g), (j), 73(b), 75(b)(2), (c)(1), (2), (4), 77(c), 78, and 81(c), and Rules B, C(3), (6), E(2)(b), (4)(b), (c), (5)(c), (9)(b), (c), and F(1) to (6) of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 25, 1988, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (485 U.S. 1043; Cong. Rec., vol. 134, pt. 7, p. 9154, Exec. Comm. 3515; H. Doc. 100�185), and became effective August 1, 1988. The amendments affected Rules 17(a) and 71A(e). Section 7047(b) of Public Law 100�690 (approved November 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4401) amended Rule 35. Section 7049 of Public Law 100�690, which directed amendment of Rule 17(a) by striking ��with him��, and section 7050 of Public Law 100�690, which directed amendment of Rule 71A(e) by striking ��taking of the defendants property�� and inserting ��taking of the defendant�s property��, could not be executed because of the intervening amendments to those Rules by the Court by order dated April 25, 1988, effective August 1, 1988. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 30, 1991, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (500 U.S. 963; Cong. Rec., vol. 137, pt. 7, p. 9721, Ex. Comm. 1190; H. Doc. 102�77), and became effective December 1, 1991. The amendments affected Rules 5, 15, 24, 34, 35, 41, 44, 45, 47, 48, 50, 52, 53, 63, 72, and 77, the headings for chapters VIII and IX, and Rules C and E of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims, added new Official Forms 1A and 1B, and abrogated Form 18�A. Section 11 of Pub. L. 102�198 (approved December 9, 1991, 105 Stat. 1626) amended Rule 15(c)(3) as transmitted to Congress by the Supreme Court to become effective on December 1, 1991; provided that Forms 1A and 1B included in the transmittal shall not be effective; and provided that Form 18�A, abrogated by the Supreme Court in the transmittal, effective December 1, 1991, shall continue in effect on or after that date. HISTORICAL NOTE XI Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 22, 1993, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (507 U.S. 1089; Cong. Rec., vol. 139, pt. 6, p. 8127, Exec. Comm. 1102; H. Doc. 103�74), and became effective December 1, 1993. The amendments affected Rules 1, 4, 5, 11, 12, 15, 16, 26, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 36, 37, 38, 50, 52, 53, 54, 58, 71A, 72, 73, 74, 75, and 76, added new Rule 4.1, affected Forms 2, 33, 34, and 34A, added new Forms 1A, 1B, and 35, and abrogated Form 18�A. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 27, 1995, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (514 U.S. 1151; Cong. Rec., vol. 141, pt. 8, p. 11745, Ex. Comm. 804; H. Doc. 104�64), and became effective December 1, 1995. The amendments affected Rules 50, 52, 59, and 83. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 23, 1996, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (517 U.S. 1279; Cong. Rec., vol. 142, pt. 6, p. 8831, Ex. Comm. 2487; H. Doc. 104�201), and became effective December 1, 1996. The amendments affected Rules 5 and 43. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 11, 1997, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (520 U.S. 1305; Cong. Rec., vol. 143, pt. 4, p. 5550, Ex. Comm. 2795; H. Doc. 105�67), and became effective December 1, 1997. The amendments affected Rules 9 and 73, abrogated Rules 74, 75, and 76, and affected Forms 33 and 34. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 24, 1998, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (523 U.S. 1221; H. Doc. 105�266), and became effective December 1, 1998. The amendments affected Rule 23. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 26, 1999, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (526 U.S. 1183; Cong. Rec., vol. 145, pt. 6, p. 7907, Ex. Comm. 1787; H. Doc. 106�54), and became effective December 1, 1999. The amendments affected Rule 6 and Form 2. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 17, 2000, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (529 U.S. 1155; Cong. Rec., vol. 146, pt. 5, p. 6328, Ex. Comm. 7336; H. Doc. 106�228), and became effective December 1, 2000. The amendments affected Rules 4, 5, 12, 14, 26, 30, and 37 and Rules B, C, and E of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 23, 2001, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (532 U.S. 992; Cong. Rec., vol. 147, pt. 5, p. 6126, Ex. Comm. 1575; H. Doc. 107�61), and became effective December 1, 2001. The amendments affected Rules 5, 6, 65, 77, 81, and 82. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 29, 2002, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (535 U.S. 1147; Cong. Rec., vol. 148, pt. 5, p. 6813, Ex. Comm. 6623; H. Doc. 107�204), and became effective December 1, 2002. The amendments affected Rules 54, 58, and 81 and Rule C of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims and added new Rule 7.1. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated March 27, 2003, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (538 U.S. 1083; Cong. Rec., vol. 149, pt. 6, p. 7689, XII HISTORICAL NOTE Ex. Comm. 1493; H. Doc. 108�56), and became effective December 1, 2003. The amendments affected Rules 23, 51, 53, 54, and 71A and Forms 19, 31, and 32. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 25, 2005, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (544 U.S. 1173; Cong. Rec., vol. 151, pt. 7, p. 8784, Ex. Comm. 1906; H. Doc. 109�23), and became effective December 1, 2005. The amendments affected Rules 6, 27, and 45, and Rules B and C of the Supplemental Rules for Certain Admiralty and Maritime Claims. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 12, 2006, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (547 U.S. 1233; Cong. Rec., vol. 152, pt. 6, p. 7213, Ex. Comm. 7317; H. Doc. 109�105), and became effective December 1, 2006. The amendments affected Rules 5, 9, 14, 16, 24, 26, 33, 34, 37, 45, 50, and 65.1, added new Rule 5.1, affected Form 35, affected Rules A, C, and E of the Supplemental Rules for Admiralty or Maritime Claims and Asset Forfeiture Actions, and added new Rule G to such Supplemental Rules. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 30, 2007, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (550 U.S. 1003; Cong. Rec., vol. 153, pt. 8, p. 10612, Ex. Comm. 1377; H. Doc. 110�27), and became effective December 1, 2007. The amendments affected Rules 1 through 86 and added new Rule 5.2; Forms 1 through 35 were amended to become restyled Forms 1 through 82. An additional amendment was adopted by the Court by order dated April 23, 2008, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (553 U.S. 1149; Cong. Rec., vol. 154, pt. 8, p. 11078, Ex. Comm. 6881; H. Doc. 110�117), and became effective December 1, 2008. The amendment affected Rule C of the Supplemental Rules for Admiralty or Maritime Claims and Asset Forfeiture Actions. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated March 26, 2009, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on March 25, 2009 (556 U.S. 1341; Cong. Rec., vol. 155, pt. 8, p. 10210, Ex. Comm. 1264; H. Doc. 111�29), and became effective December 1, 2009. The amendments affected Rules 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 23, 27, 32, 38, 48, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 59, 62, 65, 68, 71.1, 72, and 81, added new Rule 62.1, and affected Forms 3, 4, and 60, and Rules B, C, and G of the Supplemental Rules for Admiralty or Maritime Claims and Asset Forfeiture Actions. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 28, 2010, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (559 U.S.1139; Cong. Rec., vol. 156, pt. 6, p. 8139, Ex. Comm. 7473; H. Doc. 111�111), and became effective December 1, 2010. The amendments affected Rules 8, 26, and 56, and Form 52. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 16, 2013, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (569 U.S.��; Cong. Rec., vol. 159, p. H2653, Daily Issue, Ex. Comm. 1495; H. Doc. 113�29), and became effective December 1, 2013. The amendments affected Rules 37 and 45. An additional amendment was adopted by the Court by order dated April 25, 2014, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (572 U.S.��; Cong. Rec., vol. 160, p. H7933, Daily HISTORICAL NOTE XIII Issue, Ex. Comm. 7579; H. Doc. 113�163), and became effective December 1, 2014. The amendment affected Rule 77. Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 29, 2015, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (575 U.S.��; Cong. Rec., vol. 161, p. H2790, Daily Issue, Ex. Comm. 1373; H. Doc. 114�33), and became effective December 1, 2015. The amendments affected Rules 1, 4, 16, 26, 30, 31, 33, 34, 37, and 55, abrogated Rule 84, and abrogated the Appendix of Forms (Forms 1 through 82). Additional amendments were adopted by the Court by order dated April 28, 2016, transmitted to Congress by the Chief Justice on the same day (578 U.S.��; Cong. Rec., vol. 162, p. H2147, Daily Issue, Ex. Comm. 5233; H. Doc. 114�128), and became effective December 1, 2016. The amendments affected Rules 4, 6, and 82. Committee Notes Committee Notes prepared by the Committee on Rules of Practice and Procedure and the Advisory Committee on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Judicial Conference of the United States, explaining the purpose and intent of the amendments are set out in the Appendix to Title 28, United States Code, following the particular rule to which they relate. In addition, the rules and amendments, together with Committee Notes, are set out in the House documents listed above. (XV) TABLE OF CONTENTS Page Foreword .............................................................................................................. III Authority for promulgation of rules .................................................................... V Historical note ..................................................................................................... VII RULES TITLE I. SCOPE OF RULES; FORM OF ACTION Rule 1. Scope and Purpose ............................................................................. 1 Rule 2. One Form of Action ........................................................................... 1 TITLE II. COMMENCING AN ACTION; SERVICE OF PROCESS, PLEADINGS, MOTIONS, AND ORDERS Rule 3. Commencing an Action ...................................................................... 1 Rule 4. Summons ........................................................................................... 1 Rule 4.1. Serving Other Process ..................................................................... 8 Rule 5. Serving and Filing Pleadings and Other Papers ................................ 8 Rule 5.1. Constitutional Challenge to a Statute�Notice, Certification, and Intervention ...................................................................................... 10 Rule 5.2. Privacy Protection For Filings Made with the Court ..................... 11 Rule 6. Computing and Extending Time; Time for Motion Papers ................ 12 TITLE III. PLEADINGS AND MOTIONS Rule 7. Pleadings Allowed; Form of Motions and Other Papers .................... 14 Rule 7.1. Disclosure Statement ...................................................................... 14 Rule 8. General Rules of Pleading ................................................................. 14 Rule 9. Pleading Special Matters ................................................................... 16 Rule 10. Form of Pleadings ............................................................................ 17 Rule 11. Signing Pleadings, Motions, and Other Papers; Representations to the Court; Sanctions ......................................................................... 17 Rule 12. Defenses and Objections: When and How Presented; Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings; Consolidating Motions; Waiving Defenses; Pretrial Hearing ................................................................ 18 Rule 13. Counterclaim and Crossclaim .......................................................... 21 Rule 14. Third-Party Practice ........................................................................ 22 Rule 15. Amended and Supplemental Pleadings ............................................ 23 Rule 16. Pretrial Conferences; Scheduling; Management .............................. 24 TITLE IV. PARTIES Rule 17. Plaintiff and Defendant; Capacity; Public Officers .......................... 27 Rule 18. Joinder of Claims ............................................................................. 28 Rule 19. Required Joinder of Parties ............................................................. 28 Rule 20. Permissive Joinder of Parties .......................................................... 29 Rule 21. Misjoinder and Nonjoinder of Parties .............................................. 29 Rule 22. Interpleader ...................................................................................... 30 Rule 23. Class Actions .................................................................................... 30 Rule 23.1. Derivative Actions ......................................................................... 34 Rule 23.2. Actions Relating to Unincorporated Associations ......................... 34 Rule 24. Intervention ..................................................................................... 34 Rule 25. Substitution of Parties .................................................................... 35 TITLE V. DISCLOSURES AND DISCOVERY Rule 26. Duty to Disclose; General Provisions Governing Discovery ............ 36 Rule 27. Depositions to Perpetuate Testimony .............................................. 44 Rule 28. Persons Before Whom Depositions May Be Taken ........................... 46 Rule 29. Stipulations About Discovery Procedure ......................................... 47 Rule 30. Depositions by Oral Examination .................................................... 47 Rule 31. Depositions by Written Questions .................................................... 51 Rule 32. Using Depositions in Court Proceedings .......................................... 52 Rule 33. Interrogatories to Parties ................................................................ 54 Rule 34. Producing Documents, Electronically Stored Information, and Tangible Things, or Entering onto Land, for Inspection and Other Purposes ............................................................................................ 55 XVI CONTENTS TITLE V. DISCLOSURES AND DISCOVERY�Continued Page Rule 35. Physical and Mental Examinations ................................................. 56 Rule 36. Requests for Admission .................................................................... 57 Rule 37. Failure to Make Disclosures or to Cooperate in Discovery; Sanctions .......................................................................................... 58 TITLE VI. TRIALS Rule 38. Right to a Jury Trial; Demand ......................................................... 62 Rule 39. Trial by Jury or by the Court .......................................................... 63 Rule 40. Scheduling Cases for Trial ............................................................... 63 Rule 41. Dismissal of Actions ......................................................................... 63 Rule 42. Consolidation; Separate Trials ......................................................... 64 Rule 43. Taking Testimony ............................................................................ 64 Rule 44. Proving an Official Record ............................................................... 65 Rule 44.1. Determining Foreign Law .............................................................. 66 Rule 45. Subpoena .......................................................................................... 66 Rule 46. Objecting to a Ruling or Order ......................................................... 70 Rule 47. Selecting Jurors ............................................................................... 70 Rule 48. Number of Jurors; Verdict; Polling .................................................. 70 Rule 49. Special Verdict; General Verdict and Questions .............................. 71 Rule 50. Judgment as a Matter of Law in a Jury Trial; Related Motion for a New Trial; Conditional Ruling ....................................................... 72 Rule 51. Instructions to the Jury; Objections; Preserving a Claim of Error .. 73 Rule 52. Findings and Conclusions by the Court; Judgment on Partial Findings ............................................................................................ 74 Rule 53. Masters ............................................................................................. 75 TITLE VII. JUDGMENT Rule 54. Judgment; Costs ............................................................................... 77 Rule 55. Default; Default Judgment .............................................................. 78 Rule 56. Summary Judgment ......................................................................... 79 Rule 57. Declaratory Judgment ..................................................................... 80 Rule 58. Entering Judgment .......................................................................... 81 Rule 59. New Trial; Altering or Amending a Judgment ................................. 81 Rule 60. Relief from a Judgment or Order ..................................................... 82 Rule 61. Harmless Error ................................................................................. 83 Rule 62. Stay of Proceedings to Enforce a Judgment .................................... 83 Rule 62.1. Indicative Ruling on a Motion for Relief That is Barred by a Pending Appeal ................................................................................. 84 Rule 63. Judge�s Inability to Proceed ............................................................ 85 TITLE VIII. PROVISIONAL AND FINAL REMEDIES Rule 64. Seizing a Person or Property ........................................................... 85 Rule 65. Injunctions and Restraining Orders ................................................. 85 Rule 65.1. Proceedings Against a Surety ........................................................ 87 Rule 66. Receivers .......................................................................................... 87 Rule 67. Deposit into Court ............................................................................ 87 Rule 68. Offer of Judgment ............................................................................ 87 Rule 69. Execution ......................................................................................... 88 Rule 70. Enforcing a Judgment for a Specific Act ......................................... 88 Rule 71. Enforcing Relief For or Against a Nonparty .................................... 89 TITLE IX. SPECIAL PROCEEDINGS Rule 71.1. Condemning Real or Personal Property ........................................ 89 Rule 72. Magistrate Judges: Pretrial Order ................................................... 93 Rule 73. Magistrate Judges: Trial by Consent; Appeal .................................. 94 Rule 74. [Abrogated.] Rule 75. [Abrogated.] Rule 76. [Abrogated.] TITLE X. DISTRICT COURTS AND CLERKS: CONDUCTING BUSINESS; ISSUING ORDERS Rule 77. Conducting Business; Clerk�s Authority; Notice of an Order or Judgment .......................................................................................... 95 Rule 78. Hearing Motions; Submission on Briefs ........................................... 96 Rule 79. Records Kept by the Clerk ............................................................... 96 Rule 80. Stenographic Transcript as Evidence ............................................... 97 TITLE XI. GENERAL PROVISIONS Rule 81. Applicability of the Rules in General; Removed Actions ................. 97 Rule 82. Jurisdiction and Venue Unaffected .................................................. 99 Rule 83. Rules by District Courts; Judge�s Directives ................................... 99 Rule 84. [Abrogated.] CONTENTS XVII TITLE XI. GENERAL PROVISIONS�Continued Page Rule 85. Title ................................................................................................. 99 Rule 86. Effective Dates ................................................................................. 99 APPENDIX OF FORMS [Abrogated.] SUPPLEMENTAL RULES FOR ADMIRALTY OR MARITIME CLAIMS AND ASSET FORFEITURE ACTIONS Rule A. Scope of Rules ......................................................................................... 102 Rule B. In Personam Actions: Attachment and Garnishment ............................. 102 Rule C. In Rem Actions: Special Provisions ........................................................ 103 Rule D. Possessory, Petitory, and Partition Actions .......................................... 105 Rule E. Actions in Rem and Quasi in Rem: General Provisions .......................... 106 Rule F. Limitation of Liability ........................................................................... 109 Rule G. Forfeiture Actions In Rem ...................................................................... 112 (1) 1 Title amended December 29, 1948, effective October 20, 1949. RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTS1 Effective September 16, 1938, as amended to December 1, 2016 TITLE I. SCOPE OF RULES; FORM OF ACTION Rule 1. Scope and Purpose These rules govern the procedure in all civil actions and proceedings in the United States district courts, except as stated in Rule 81. They should be construed, administered, and employed by the court and the parties to secure the just, speedy, and inexpensive determination of every action and proceeding. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 2. One Form of Action There is one form of action�the civil action. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) TITLE II. COMMENCING AN ACTION; SERVICE OF PROCESS, PLEADINGS, MOTIONS, AND ORDERS Rule 3. Commencing an Action A civil action is commenced by filing a complaint with the court. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 4. Summons (a) CONTENTS; AMENDMENTS. (1) Contents. A summons must: (A) name the court and the parties; (B) be directed to the defendant; (C) state the name and address of the plaintiff�s attorney or�if unrepresented�of the plaintiff; (D) state the time within which the defendant must appear and defend; (E) notify the defendant that a failure to appear and defend will result in a default judgment against the defendant for the relief demanded in the complaint; (F) be signed by the clerk; and (G) bear the court�s seal. Rule 4 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 2 (2) Amendments. The court may permit a summons to be amended. (b) ISSUANCE. On or after filing the complaint, the plaintiff may present a summons to the clerk for signature and seal. If the summons is properly completed, the clerk must sign, seal, and issue it to the plaintiff for service on the defendant. A summons�or a copy of a summons that is addressed to multiple defendants�must be issued for each defendant to be served. (c) SERVICE. (1) In General. A summons must be served with a copy of the complaint. The plaintiff is responsible for having the summons and complaint served within the time allowed by Rule 4(m) and must furnish the necessary copies to the person who makes service. (2) By Whom. Any person who is at least 18 years old and not a party may serve a summons and complaint. (3) By a Marshal or Someone Specially Appointed. At the plaintiff�s request, the court may order that service be made by a United States marshal or deputy marshal or by a person specially appointed by the court. The court must so order if the plaintiff is authorized to proceed in forma pauperis under 28 U.S.C. � 1915 or as a seaman under 28 U.S.C. � 1916. (d) WAIVING SERVICE. (1) Requesting a Waiver. An individual, corporation, or association that is subject to service under Rule 4(e), (f), or (h) has a duty to avoid unnecessary expenses of serving the summons. The plaintiff may notify such a defendant that an action has been commenced and request that the defendant waive service of a summons. The notice and request must: (A) be in writing and be addressed: (i) to the individual defendant; or (ii) for a defendant subject to service under Rule 4(h), to an officer, a managing or general agent, or any other agent authorized by appointment or by law to receive service of process; (B) name the court where the complaint was filed; (C) be accompanied by a copy of the complaint, 2 copies of the waiver form appended to this Rule 4, and a prepaid means for returning the form; (D) inform the defendant, using the form appended to this Rule 4, of the consequences of waiving and not waiving service; (E) state the date when the request is sent; (F) give the defendant a reasonable time of at least 30 days after the request was sent�or at least 60 days if sent to the defendant outside any judicial district of the United States�to return the waiver; and (G) be sent by first-class mail or other reliable means. (2) Failure to Waive. If a defendant located within the United States fails, without good cause, to sign and return a waiver requested by a plaintiff located within the United States, the court must impose on the defendant: (A) the expenses later incurred in making service; and (B) the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, of any motion required to collect those service expenses. 3 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 4 (3) Time to Answer After a Waiver. A defendant who, before being served with process, timely returns a waiver need not serve an answer to the complaint until 60 days after the request was sent�or until 90 days after it was sent to the defendant outside any judicial district of the United States. (4) Results of Filing a Waiver. When the plaintiff files a waiver, proof of service is not required and these rules apply as if a summons and complaint had been served at the time of filing the waiver. (5) Jurisdiction and Venue Not Waived. Waiving service of a summons does not waive any objection to personal jurisdiction or to venue. (e) SERVING AN INDIVIDUAL WITHIN A JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF THE UNITED STATES. Unless federal law provides otherwise, an individual� other than a minor, an incompetent person, or a person whose waiver has been filed�may be served in a judicial district of the United States by: (1) following state law for serving a summons in an action brought in courts of general jurisdiction in the state where the district court is located or where service is made; or (2) doing any of the following: (A) delivering a copy of the summons and of the complaint to the individual personally; (B) leaving a copy of each at the individual�s dwelling or usual place of abode with someone of suitable age and discretion who resides there; or (C) delivering a copy of each to an agent authorized by appointment or by law to receive service of process. (f) SERVING AN INDIVIDUAL IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY. Unless federal law provides otherwise, an individual�other than a minor, an incompetent person, or a person whose waiver has been filed�may be served at a place not within any judicial district of the United States: (1) by any internationally agreed means of service that is reasonably calculated to give notice, such as those authorized by the Hague Convention on the Service Abroad of Judicial and Extrajudicial Documents; (2) if there is no internationally agreed means, or if an international agreement allows but does not specify other means, by a method that is reasonably calculated to give notice: (A) as prescribed by the foreign country�s law for service in that country in an action in its courts of general jurisdiction; (B) as the foreign authority directs in response to a letter rogatory or letter of request; or (C) unless prohibited by the foreign country�s law, by: (i) delivering a copy of the summons and of the complaint to the individual personally; or (ii) using any form of mail that the clerk addresses and sends to the individual and that requires a signed receipt; or (3) by other means not prohibited by international agreement, as the court orders. (g) SERVING A MINOR OR AN INCOMPETENT PERSON. A minor or an incompetent person in a judicial district of the United States Rule 4 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 4 must be served by following state law for serving a summons or like process on such a defendant in an action brought in the courts of general jurisdiction of the state where service is made. A minor or an incompetent person who is not within any judicial district of the United States must be served in the manner prescribed by Rule 4(f)(2)(A), (f)(2)(B), or (f)(3). (h) SERVING A CORPORATION, PARTNERSHIP, OR ASSOCIATION. Unless federal law provides otherwise or the defendant�s waiver has been filed, a domestic or foreign corporation, or a partnership or other unincorporated association that is subject to suit under a common name, must be served: (1) in a judicial district of the United States: (A) in the manner prescribed by Rule 4(e)(1) for serving an individual; or (B) by delivering a copy of the summons and of the complaint to an officer, a managing or general agent, or any other agent authorized by appointment or by law to receive service of process and�if the agent is one authorized by statute and the statute so requires�by also mailing a copy of each to the defendant; or (2) at a place not within any judicial district of the United States, in any manner prescribed by Rule 4(f) for serving an individual, except personal delivery under (f)(2)(C)(i). (i) SERVING THE UNITED STATES AND ITS AGENCIES, CORPORATIONS, OFFICERS, OR EMPLOYEES. (1) United States. To serve the United States, a party must: (A)(i) deliver a copy of the summons and of the complaint to the United States attorney for the district where the action is brought�or to an assistant United States attorney or clerical employee whom the United States attorney designates in a writing filed with the court clerk�or (ii) send a copy of each by registered or certified mail to the civil-process clerk at the United States attorney�s office; (B) send a copy of each by registered or certified mail to the Attorney General of the United States at Washington, D.C.; and (C) if the action challenges an order of a nonparty agency or officer of the United States, send a copy of each by registered or certified mail to the agency or officer. (2) Agency; Corporation; Officer or Employee Sued in an Official Capacity. To serve a United States agency or corporation, or a United States officer or employee sued only in an official capacity, a party must serve the United States and also send a copy of the summons and of the complaint by registered or certified mail to the agency, corporation, officer, or employee. (3) Officer or Employee Sued Individually. To serve a United States officer or employee sued in an individual capacity for an act or omission occurring in connection with duties performed on the United States� behalf (whether or not the officer or employee is also sued in an official capacity), a party must serve the United States and also serve the officer or employee under Rule 4(e), (f), or (g). (4) Extending Time. The court must allow a party a reasonable time to cure its failure to: 5 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 4 (A) serve a person required to be served under Rule 4(i)(2), if the party has served either the United States attorney or the Attorney General of the United States; or (B) serve the United States under Rule 4(i)(3), if the party has served the United States officer or employee. (j) SERVING A FOREIGN, STATE, OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT. (1) Foreign State. A foreign state or its political subdivision, agency, or instrumentality must be served in accordance with 28 U.S.C. � 1608. (2) State or Local Government. A state, a municipal corporation, or any other state-created governmental organization that is subject to suit must be served by: (A) delivering a copy of the summons and of the complaint to its chief executive officer; or (B) serving a copy of each in the manner prescribed by that state�s law for serving a summons or like process on such a defendant. (k) TERRITORIAL LIMITS OF EFFECTIVE SERVICE. (1) In General. Serving a summons or filing a waiver of service establishes personal jurisdiction over a defendant: (A) who is subject to the jurisdiction of a court of general jurisdiction in the state where the district court is located; (B) who is a party joined under Rule 14 or 19 and is served within a judicial district of the United States and not more than 100 miles from where the summons was issued; or (C) when authorized by a federal statute. (2) Federal Claim Outside State-Court Jurisdiction. For a claim that arises under federal law, serving a summons or filing a waiver of service establishes personal jurisdiction over a defendant if: (A) the defendant is not subject to jurisdiction in any state�s courts of general jurisdiction; and (B) exercising jurisdiction is consistent with the United States Constitution and laws. (l) PROVING SERVICE. (1) Affidavit Required. Unless service is waived, proof of service must be made to the court. Except for service by a United States marshal or deputy marshal, proof must be by the server�s affidavit. (2) Service Outside the United States. Service not within any judicial district of the United States must be proved as follows: (A) if made under Rule 4(f)(1), as provided in the applicable treaty or convention; or (B) if made under Rule 4(f)(2) or (f)(3), by a receipt signed by the addressee, or by other evidence satisfying the court that the summons and complaint were delivered to the addressee. (3) Validity of Service; Amending Proof. Failure to prove service does not affect the validity of service. The court may permit proof of service to be amended. (m) TIME LIMIT FOR SERVICE. If a defendant is not served within 90 days after the complaint is filed, the court�on motion or on its Rule 4 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 6 1 Rule 4(m) is set out above as it appears in the Supreme Court order of Apr. 28, 2016. As amended by the Supreme Court order of Apr. 29, 2015, the last sentence of Rule 4(m) reads as follows: ��This subdivision (m) does not apply to service in a foreign country under Rule 4(f) or 4(j)(1) or to service of a notice under Rule 71.1(d)(3)(A).�� The language added to the last sentence in 2015, ��or to service of a notice under Rule 71.1(d)(3)(A)��, probably should be part of Rule 4(m), but does not appear in the 2016 amendment. own after notice to the plaintiff�must dismiss the action without prejudice against that defendant or order that service be made within a specified time. But if the plaintiff shows good cause for the failure, the court must extend the time for service for an appropriate period. This subdivision (m) does not apply to service in a foreign country under Rule 4(f), 4(h)(2), or 4(j)(1).1 (n) ASSERTING JURISDICTION OVER PROPERTY OR ASSETS. (1) Federal Law. The court may assert jurisdiction over property if authorized by a federal statute. Notice to claimants of the property must be given as provided in the statute or by serving a summons under this rule. (2) State Law. On a showing that personal jurisdiction over a defendant cannot be obtained in the district where the action is brought by reasonable efforts to serve a summons under this rule, the court may assert jurisdiction over the defendant�s assets found in the district. Jurisdiction is acquired by seizing the assets under the circumstances and in the manner provided by state law in that district. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Pub. L. 97�462, � 2, Jan. 12, 1983, 96 Stat. 2527, eff. Feb. 26, 1983; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015; Apr. 28, 2016, eff. Dec. 1, 2016.) RULE 4 NOTICE OF A LAWSUIT AND REQUEST TO WAIVE SERVICE OF SUMMONS. (Caption) To (name the defendant or�if the defendant is a corporation, partnership, or association�name an officer or agent authorized to receive service): WHY ARE YOU GETTING THIS? A lawsuit has been filed against you, or the entity you represent, in this court under the number shown above. A copy of the complaint is attached. This is not a summons, or an official notice from the court. It is a request that, to avoid expenses, you waive formal service of a summons by signing and returning the enclosed waiver. To avoid these expenses, you must return the signed waiver within (give at least 30 days or at least 60 days if the defendant is outside any judicial district of the United States) from the date shown below, which is the date this notice was sent. Two copies of the waiver form are enclosed, along with a stamped, self-addressed envelope or other prepaid means for returning one copy. You may keep the other copy. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? If you return the signed waiver, I will file it with the court. The action will then proceed as if you had been served on the date the waiver is filed, but no summons will be served on you and you will 7 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 4 have 60 days from the date this notice is sent (see the date below) to answer the complaint (or 90 days if this notice is sent to you outside any judicial district of the United States). If you do not return the signed waiver within the time indicated, I will arrange to have the summons and complaint served on you. And I will ask the court to require you, or the entity you represent, to pay the expenses of making service. Please read the enclosed statement about the duty to avoid unnecessary expenses. I certify that this request is being sent to you on the date below. Date:lllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Signature of the attorney or unrepresented party) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Printed name) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Address) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (E-mail address) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Telephone number) RULE 4 WAIVER OF THE SERVICE OF SUMMONS. (Caption) To (name the plaintiff�s attorney or the unrepresented plaintiff): I have received your request to waive service of a summons in this action along with a copy of the complaint, two copies of this waiver form, and a prepaid means of returning one signed copy of the form to you. I, or the entity I represent, agree to save the expense of serving a summons and complaint in this case. I understand that I, or the entity I represent, will keep all defenses or objections to the lawsuit, the court�s jurisdiction, and the venue of the action, but that I waive any objections to the absence of a summons or of service. I also understand that I, or the entity I represent, must file and serve an answer or a motion under Rule 12 within 60 days from lllllllllllllllllllll, the date when this request was sent (or 90 days if it was sent outside the United States). If I fail to do so, a default judgment will be entered against me or the entity I represent. Date:lllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Signature of the attorney or unrepresented party) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Printed name) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Address) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (E-mail address) lllllllllllllllllllllllllll (Telephone number) Rule 4.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 8 (Attach the following) DUTY TO AVOID UNNECESSARY EXPENSES OF SERVING A SUMMONS Rule 4 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure requires certain defendants to cooperate in saving unnecessary expenses of serving a summons and complaint. A defendant who is located in the United States and who fails to return a signed waiver of service requested by a plaintiff located in the United States will be required to pay the expenses of service, unless the defendant shows good cause for the failure. ��Good cause�� does not include a belief that the lawsuit is groundless, or that it has been brought in an improper venue, or that the court has no jurisdiction over this matter or over the defendant or the defendant�s property. If the waiver is signed and returned, you can still make these and all other defenses and objections, but you cannot object to the absence of a summons or of service. If you waive service, then you must, within the time specified on the waiver form, serve an answer or a motion under Rule 12 on the plaintiff and file a copy with the court. By signing and returning the waiver form, you are allowed more time to respond than if a summons had been served. Rule 4.1. Serving Other Process (a) IN GENERAL. Process�other than a summons under Rule 4 or a subpoena under Rule 45�must be served by a United States marshal or deputy marshal or by a person specially appointed for that purpose. It may be served anywhere within the territorial limits of the state where the district court is located and, if authorized by a federal statute, beyond those limits. Proof of service must be made under Rule 4(l). (b) ENFORCING ORDERS: COMMITTING FOR CIVIL CONTEMPT. An order committing a person for civil contempt of a decree or injunction issued to enforce federal law may be served and enforced in any district. Any other order in a civil-contempt proceeding may be served only in the state where the issuing court is located or elsewhere in the United States within 100 miles from where the order was issued. (As added Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 5. Serving and Filing Pleadings and Other Papers (a) SERVICE: WHEN REQUIRED. (1) In General. Unless these rules provide otherwise, each of the following papers must be served on every party: (A) an order stating that service is required; (B) a pleading filed after the original complaint, unless the court orders otherwise under Rule 5(c) because there are numerous defendants; (C) a discovery paper required to be served on a party, unless the court orders otherwise; (D) a written motion, except one that may be heard ex parte; and 9 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 5 (E) a written notice, appearance, demand, or offer of judgment, or any similar paper. (2) If a Party Fails to Appear. No service is required on a party who is in default for failing to appear. But a pleading that asserts a new claim for relief against such a party must be served on that party under Rule 4. (3) Seizing Property. If an action is begun by seizing property and no person is or need be named as a defendant, any service required before the filing of an appearance, answer, or claim must be made on the person who had custody or possession of the property when it was seized. (b) SERVICE: HOW MADE. (1) Serving an Attorney. If a party is represented by an attorney, service under this rule must be made on the attorney unless the court orders service on the party. (2) Service in General. A paper is served under this rule by: (A) handing it to the person; (B) leaving it: (i) at the person�s office with a clerk or other person in charge or, if no one is in charge, in a conspicuous place in the office; or (ii) if the person has no office or the office is closed, at the person�s dwelling or usual place of abode with someone of suitable age and discretion who resides there; (C) mailing it to the person�s last known address�in which event service is complete upon mailing; (D) leaving it with the court clerk if the person has no known address; (E) sending it by electronic means if the person consented in writing�in which event service is complete upon transmission, but is not effective if the serving party learns that it did not reach the person to be served; or (F) delivering it by any other means that the person consented to in writing�in which event service is complete when the person making service delivers it to the agency designated to make delivery. (3) Using Court Facilities. If a local rule so authorizes, a party may use the court�s transmission facilities to make service under Rule 5(b)(2)(E). (c) SERVING NUMEROUS DEFENDANTS. (1) In General. If an action involves an unusually large number of defendants, the court may, on motion or on its own, order that: (A) defendants� pleadings and replies to them need not be served on other defendants; (B) any crossclaim, counterclaim, avoidance, or affirmative defense in those pleadings and replies to them will be treated as denied or avoided by all other parties; and (C) filing any such pleading and serving it on the plaintiff constitutes notice of the pleading to all parties. (2) Notifying Parties. A copy of every such order must be served on the parties as the court directs. Rule 5.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 10 (d) FILING. (1) Required Filings; Certificate of Service. Any paper after the complaint that is required to be served�together with a certificate of service�must be filed within a reasonable time after service. But disclosures under Rule 26(a)(1) or (2) and the following discovery requests and responses must not be filed until they are used in the proceeding or the court orders filing: depositions, interrogatories, requests for documents or tangible things or to permit entry onto land, and requests for admission. (2) How Filing Is Made�In General. A paper is filed by delivering it: (A) to the clerk; or (B) to a judge who agrees to accept it for filing, and who must then note the filing date on the paper and promptly send it to the clerk. (3) Electronic Filing, Signing, or Verification. A court may, by local rule, allow papers to be filed, signed, or verified by electronic means that are consistent with any technical standards established by the Judicial Conference of the United States. A local rule may require electronic filing only if reasonable exceptions are allowed. A paper filed electronically in compliance with a local rule is a written paper for purposes of these rules. (4) Acceptance by the Clerk. The clerk must not refuse to file a paper solely because it is not in the form prescribed by these rules or by a local rule or practice. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 23, 1996, eff. Dec. 1, 1996; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 5.1. Constitutional Challenge to a Statute�Notice, Certification, and Intervention (a) NOTICE BY A PARTY. A party that files a pleading, written motion, or other paper drawing into question the constitutionality of a federal or state statute must promptly: (1) file a notice of constitutional question stating the question and identifying the paper that raises it, if: (A) a federal statute is questioned and the parties do not include the United States, one of its agencies, or one of its officers or employees in an official capacity; or (B) a state statute is questioned and the parties do not include the state, one of its agencies, or one of its officers or employees in an official capacity; and (2) serve the notice and paper on the Attorney General of the United States if a federal statute is questioned�or on the state attorney general if a state statute is questioned�either by certified or registered mail or by sending it to an electronic address designated by the attorney general for this purpose. (b) CERTIFICATION BY THE COURT. The court must, under 28 U.S.C. � 2403, certify to the appropriate attorney general that a statute has been questioned. 11 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 5.2 (c) INTERVENTION; FINAL DECISION ON THE MERITS. Unless the court sets a later time, the attorney general may intervene within 60 days after the notice is filed or after the court certifies the challenge, whichever is earlier. Before the time to intervene expires, the court may reject the constitutional challenge, but may not enter a final judgment holding the statute unconstitutional. (d) NO FORFEITURE. A party�s failure to file and serve the notice, or the court�s failure to certify, does not forfeit a constitutional claim or defense that is otherwise timely asserted. (As added Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 5.2. Privacy Protection For Filings Made with the Court (a) REDACTED FILINGS. Unless the court orders otherwise, in an electronic or paper filing with the court that contains an individual�s social-security number, taxpayer-identification number, or birth date, the name of an individual known to be a minor, or a financial-account number, a party or nonparty making the filing may include only: (1) the last four digits of the social-security number and taxpayer- identification number; (2) the year of the individual�s birth; (3) the minor�s initials; and (4) the last four digits of the financial-account number. (b) EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REDACTION REQUIREMENT. The redaction requirement does not apply to the following: (1) a financial-account number that identifies the property allegedly subject to forfeiture in a forfeiture proceeding; (2) the record of an administrative or agency proceeding; (3) the official record of a state-court proceeding; (4) the record of a court or tribunal, if that record was not subject to the redaction requirement when originally filed; (5) a filing covered by Rule 5.2(c) or (d); and (6) a pro se filing in an action brought under 28 U.S.C. �� 2241, 2254, or 2255. (c) LIMITATIONS ON REMOTE ACCESS TO ELECTRONIC FILES; SOCIALSECURITY APPEALS AND IMMIGRATION CASES. Unless the court orders otherwise, in an action for benefits under the Social Security Act, and in an action or proceeding relating to an order of removal, to relief from removal, or to immigration benefits or detention, access to an electronic file is authorized as follows: (1) the parties and their attorneys may have remote electronic access to any part of the case file, including the administrative record; (2) any other person may have electronic access to the full record at the courthouse, but may have remote electronic access only to: (A) the docket maintained by the court; and (B) an opinion, order, judgment, or other disposition of the court, but not any other part of the case file or the administrative record. (d) FILINGS MADE UNDER SEAL. The court may order that a filing be made under seal without redaction. The court may later unseal the filing or order the person who made the filing to file a redacted version for the public record. Rule 6 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 12 (e) PROTECTIVE ORDERS. For good cause, the court may by order in a case: (1) require redaction of additional information; or (2) limit or prohibit a nonparty�s remote electronic access to a document filed with the court. (f) OPTION FOR ADDITIONAL UNREDACTED FILING UNDER SEAL. A person making a redacted filing may also file an unredacted copy under seal. The court must retain the unredacted copy as part of the record. (g) OPTION FOR FILING A REFERENCE LIST. A filing that contains redacted information may be filed together with a reference list that identifies each item of redacted information and specifies an appropriate identifier that uniquely corresponds to each item listed. The list must be filed under seal and may be amended as of right. Any reference in the case to a listed identifier will be construed to refer to the corresponding item of information. (h) WAIVER OF PROTECTION OF IDENTIFIERS. A person waives the protection of Rule 5.2(a) as to the person�s own information by filing it without redaction and not under seal. (As added Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 6. Computing and Extending Time; Time for Motion Papers (a) COMPUTING TIME. The following rules apply in computing any time period specified in these rules, in any local rule or court order, or in any statute that does not specify a method of computing time. (1) Period Stated in Days or a Longer Unit. When the period is stated in days or a longer unit of time: (A) exclude the day of the event that triggers the period; (B) count every day, including intermediate Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays; and (C) include the last day of the period, but if the last day is a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, the period continues to run until the end of the next day that is not a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday. (2) Period Stated in Hours. When the period is stated in hours: (A) begin counting immediately on the occurrence of the event that triggers the period; (B) count every hour, including hours during intermediate Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays; and (C) if the period would end on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, the period continues to run until the same time on the next day that is not a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday. (3) Inaccessibility of the Clerk�s Office. Unless the court orders otherwise, if the clerk�s office is inaccessible: (A) on the last day for filing under Rule 6(a)(1), then the time for filing is extended to the first accessible day that is not a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday; or (B) during the last hour for filing under Rule 6(a)(2), then the time for filing is extended to the same time on the first accessible day that is not a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday. (4) ��Last Day�� Defined. Unless a different time is set by a statute, local rule, or court order, the last day ends: 13 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 6 (A) for electronic filing, at midnight in the court�s time zone; and (B) for filing by other means, when the clerk�s office is scheduled to close. (5) ��Next Day�� Defined. The ��next day�� is determined by continuing to count forward when the period is measured after an event and backward when measured before an event. (6) ��Legal Holiday�� Defined. ��Legal holiday�� means: (A) the day set aside by statute for observing New Year�s Day, Martin Luther King Jr.�s Birthday, Washington�s Birthday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans� Day, Thanksgiving Day, or Christmas Day; (B) any day declared a holiday by the President or Congress; and (C) for periods that are measured after an event, any other day declared a holiday by the state where the district court is located. (b) EXTENDING TIME. (1) In General. When an act may or must be done within a specified time, the court may, for good cause, extend the time: (A) with or without motion or notice if the court acts, or if a request is made, before the original time or its extension expires; or (B) on motion made after the time has expired if the party failed to act because of excusable neglect. (2) Exceptions. A court must not extend the time to act under Rules 50(b) and (d), 52(b), 59(b), (d), and (e), and 60(b). (c) MOTIONS, NOTICES OF HEARING, AND AFFIDAVITS. (1) In General. A written motion and notice of the hearing must be served at least 14 days before the time specified for the hearing, with the following exceptions: (A) when the motion may be heard ex parte; (B) when these rules set a different time; or (C) when a court order�which a party may, for good cause, apply for ex parte�sets a different time. (2) Supporting Affidavit. Any affidavit supporting a motion must be served with the motion. Except as Rule 59(c) provides otherwise, any opposing affidavit must be served at least 7 days before the hearing, unless the court permits service at another time. (d) ADDITIONAL TIME AFTER CERTAIN KINDS OF SERVICE. When a party may or must act within a specified time after being served and service is made under Rule 5(b)(2)(C) (mail), (D) (leaving with the clerk), or (F) (other means consented to), 3 days are added after the period would otherwise expire under Rule 6(a). (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Dec. 4, 1967, eff. July 1, 1968; Mar. 1, 1971, eff. July 1, 1971; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 26, 1999, eff. Dec. 1, 1999; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 25, 2005, eff. Dec. 1, 2005; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009; Apr. 28, 2016, eff. Dec. 1, 2016.) Rule 7 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 14 TITLE III. PLEADINGS AND MOTIONS Rule 7. Pleadings Allowed; Form of Motions and Other Papers (a) PLEADINGS. Only these pleadings are allowed: (1) a complaint; (2) an answer to a complaint; (3) an answer to a counterclaim designated as a counterclaim; (4) an answer to a crossclaim; (5) a third-party complaint; (6) an answer to a third-party complaint; and (7) if the court orders one, a reply to an answer. (b) MOTIONS AND OTHER PAPERS. (1) In General. A request for a court order must be made by motion. The motion must: (A) be in writing unless made during a hearing or trial; (B) state with particularity the grounds for seeking the order; and (C) state the relief sought. (2) Form. The rules governing captions and other matters of form in pleadings apply to motions and other papers. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 7.1. Disclosure Statement (a) WHO MUST FILE; CONTENTS. A nongovernmental corporate party must file 2 copies of a disclosure statement that: (1) identifies any parent corporation and any publicly held corporation owning 10% or more of its stock; or (2) states that there is no such corporation. (b) TIME TO FILE; SUPPLEMENTAL FILING. A party must: (1) file the disclosure statement with its first appearance, pleading, petition, motion, response, or other request addressed to the court; and (2) promptly file a supplemental statement if any required information changes. (As added Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002; amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 8. General Rules of Pleading (a) CLAIM FOR RELIEF. A pleading that states a claim for relief must contain: (1) a short and plain statement of the grounds for the court�s jurisdiction, unless the court already has jurisdiction and the claim needs no new jurisdictional support; (2) a short and plain statement of the claim showing that the pleader is entitled to relief; and (3) a demand for the relief sought, which may include relief in the alternative or different types of relief. (b) DEFENSES; ADMISSIONS AND DENIALS. (1) In General. In responding to a pleading, a party must: (A) state in short and plain terms its defenses to each claim asserted against it; and (B) admit or deny the allegations asserted against it by an opposing party. 15 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 8 (2) Denials�Responding to the Substance. A denial must fairly respond to the substance of the allegation. (3) General and Specific Denials. A party that intends in good faith to deny all the allegations of a pleading�including the jurisdictional grounds�may do so by a general denial. A party that does not intend to deny all the allegations must either specifically deny designated allegations or generally deny all except those specifically admitted. (4) Denying Part of an Allegation. A party that intends in good faith to deny only part of an allegation must admit the part that is true and deny the rest. (5) Lacking Knowledge or Information. A party that lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief about the truth of an allegation must so state, and the statement has the effect of a denial. (6) Effect of Failing to Deny. An allegation�other than one relating to the amount of damages�is admitted if a responsive pleading is required and the allegation is not denied. If a responsive pleading is not required, an allegation is considered denied or avoided. (c) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES. (1) In General. In responding to a pleading, a party must affirmatively state any avoidance or affirmative defense, including: � accord and satisfaction; � arbitration and award; � assumption of risk; � contributory negligence; � duress; � estoppel; � failure of consideration; � fraud; � illegality; � injury by fellow servant; � laches; � license; � payment; � release; � res judicata; � statute of frauds; � statute of limitations; and � waiver. (2) Mistaken Designation. If a party mistakenly designates a defense as a counterclaim, or a counterclaim as a defense, the court must, if justice requires, treat the pleading as though it were correctly designated, and may impose terms for doing so. (d) PLEADING TO BE CONCISE AND DIRECT; ALTERNATIVE STATEMENTS; INCONSISTENCY. (1) In General. Each allegation must be simple, concise, and direct. No technical form is required. (2) Alternative Statements of a Claim or Defense. A party may set out 2 or more statements of a claim or defense alternatively or hypothetically, either in a single count or defense or in separate ones. If a party makes alternative statements, the pleading is sufficient if any one of them is sufficient. Rule 9 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 16 (3) Inconsistent Claims or Defenses. A party may state as many separate claims or defenses as it has, regardless of consistency. (e) CONSTRUING PLEADINGS. Pleadings must be construed so as to do justice. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 28, 2010, eff. Dec. 1, 2010.) Rule 9. Pleading Special Matters (a) CAPACITY OR AUTHORITY TO SUE; LEGAL EXISTENCE. (1) In General. Except when required to show that the court has jurisdiction, a pleading need not allege: (A) a party�s capacity to sue or be sued; (B) a party�s authority to sue or be sued in a representative capacity; or (C) the legal existence of an organized association of persons that is made a party. (2) Raising Those Issues. To raise any of those issues, a party must do so by a specific denial, which must state any supporting facts that are peculiarly within the party�s knowledge. (b) FRAUD OR MISTAKE; CONDITIONS OF MIND. In alleging fraud or mistake, a party must state with particularity the circumstances constituting fraud or mistake. Malice, intent, knowledge, and other conditions of a person�s mind may be alleged generally. (c) CONDITIONS PRECEDENT. In pleading conditions precedent, it suffices to allege generally that all conditions precedent have occurred or been performed. But when denying that a condition precedent has occurred or been performed, a party must do so with particularity. (d) OFFICIAL DOCUMENT OR ACT. In pleading an official document or official act, it suffices to allege that the document was legally issued or the act legally done. (e) JUDGMENT. In pleading a judgment or decision of a domestic or foreign court, a judicial or quasi-judicial tribunal, or a board or officer, it suffices to plead the judgment or decision without showing jurisdiction to render it. (f) TIME AND PLACE. An allegation of time or place is material when testing the sufficiency of a pleading. (g) SPECIAL DAMAGES. If an item of special damage is claimed, it must be specifically stated. (h) ADMIRALTY OR MARITIME CLAIM. (1) How Designated. If a claim for relief is within the admiralty or maritime jurisdiction and also within the court�s subject- matter jurisdiction on some other ground, the pleading may designate the claim as an admiralty or maritime claim for purposes of Rules 14(c), 38(e), and 82 and the Supplemental Rules for Admiralty or Maritime Claims and Asset Forfeiture Actions. A claim cognizable only in the admiralty or maritime jurisdiction is an admiralty or maritime claim for those purposes, whether or not so designated. (2) Designation for Appeal. A case that includes an admiralty or maritime claim within this subdivision (h) is an admiralty case within 28 U.S.C. � 1292(a)(3). (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Dec. 4, 1967, eff. July 1, 1968; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; 17 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 11 Apr. 11, 1997, eff. Dec. 1, 1997; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 10. Form of Pleadings (a) CAPTION; NAMES OF PARTIES. Every pleading must have a caption with the court�s name, a title, a file number, and a Rule 7(a) designation. The title of the complaint must name all the parties; the title of other pleadings, after naming the first party on each side, may refer generally to other parties. (b) PARAGRAPHS; SEPARATE STATEMENTS. A party must state its claims or defenses in numbered paragraphs, each limited as far as practicable to a single set of circumstances. A later pleading may refer by number to a paragraph in an earlier pleading. If doing so would promote clarity, each claim founded on a separate transaction or occurrence�and each defense other than a denial�must be stated in a separate count or defense. (c) ADOPTION BY REFERENCE; EXHIBITS. A statement in a pleading may be adopted by reference elsewhere in the same pleading or in any other pleading or motion. A copy of a written instrument that is an exhibit to a pleading is a part of the pleading for all purposes. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 11. Signing Pleadings, Motions, and Other Papers; Representations to the Court; Sanctions (a) SIGNATURE. Every pleading, written motion, and other paper must be signed by at least one attorney of record in the attorney�s name�or by a party personally if the party is unrepresented. The paper must state the signer�s address, e-mail address, and telephone number. Unless a rule or statute specifically states otherwise, a pleading need not be verified or accompanied by an affidavit. The court must strike an unsigned paper unless the omission is promptly corrected after being called to the attorney�s or party�s attention. (b) REPRESENTATIONS TO THE COURT. By presenting to the court a pleading, written motion, or other paper�whether by signing, filing, submitting, or later advocating it�an attorney or unrepresented party certifies that to the best of the person�s knowledge, information, and belief, formed after an inquiry reasonable under the circumstances: (1) it is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation; (2) the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law or for establishing new law; (3) the factual contentions have evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and (4) the denials of factual contentions are warranted on the evidence or, if specifically so identified, are reasonably based on belief or a lack of information. Rule 12 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 18 (c) SANCTIONS. (1) In General. If, after notice and a reasonable opportunity to respond, the court determines that Rule 11(b) has been violated, the court may impose an appropriate sanction on any attorney, law firm, or party that violated the rule or is responsible for the violation. Absent exceptional circumstances, a law firm must be held jointly responsible for a violation committed by its partner, associate, or employee. (2) Motion for Sanctions. A motion for sanctions must be made separately from any other motion and must describe the specific conduct that allegedly violates Rule 11(b). The motion must be served under Rule 5, but it must not be filed or be presented to the court if the challenged paper, claim, defense, contention, or denial is withdrawn or appropriately corrected within 21 days after service or within another time the court sets. If warranted, the court may award to the prevailing party the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, incurred for the motion. (3) On the Court�s Initiative. On its own, the court may order an attorney, law firm, or party to show cause why conduct specifically described in the order has not violated Rule 11(b). (4) Nature of a Sanction. A sanction imposed under this rule must be limited to what suffices to deter repetition of the conduct or comparable conduct by others similarly situated. The sanction may include nonmonetary directives; an order to pay a penalty into court; or, if imposed on motion and warranted for effective deterrence, an order directing payment to the movant of part or all of the reasonable attorney�s fees and other expenses directly resulting from the violation. (5) Limitations on Monetary Sanctions. The court must not impose a monetary sanction: (A) against a represented party for violating Rule 11(b)(2); or (B) on its own, unless it issued the show-cause order under Rule 11(c)(3) before voluntary dismissal or settlement of the claims made by or against the party that is, or whose attorneys are, to be sanctioned. (6) Requirements for an Order. An order imposing a sanction must describe the sanctioned conduct and explain the basis for the sanction. (d) INAPPLICABILITY TO DISCOVERY. This rule does not apply to disclosures and discovery requests, responses, objections, and motions under Rules 26 through 37. (As amended Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 12. Defenses and Objections: When and How Presented; Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings; Consolidating Motions; Waiving Defenses; Pretrial Hearing (a) TIME TO SERVE A RESPONSIVE PLEADING. (1) In General. Unless another time is specified by this rule or a federal statute, the time for serving a responsive pleading is as follows: 19 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 12 (A) A defendant must serve an answer: (i) within 21 days after being served with the summons and complaint; or (ii) if it has timely waived service under Rule 4(d), within 60 days after the request for a waiver was sent, or within 90 days after it was sent to the defendant outside any judicial district of the United States. (B) A party must serve an answer to a counterclaim or crossclaim within 21 days after being served with the pleading that states the counterclaim or crossclaim. (C) A party must serve a reply to an answer within 21 days after being served with an order to reply, unless the order specifies a different time. (2) United States and Its Agencies, Officers, or Employees Sued in an Official Capacity. The United States, a United States agency, or a United States officer or employee sued only in an official capacity must serve an answer to a complaint, counterclaim, or crossclaim within 60 days after service on the United States attorney. (3) United States Officers or Employees Sued in an Individual Capacity. A United States officer or employee sued in an individual capacity for an act or omission occurring in connection with duties performed on the United States� behalf must serve an answer to a complaint, counterclaim, or crossclaim within 60 days after service on the officer or employee or service on the United States attorney, whichever is later. (4) Effect of a Motion. Unless the court sets a different time, serving a motion under this rule alters these periods as follows: (A) if the court denies the motion or postpones its disposition until trial, the responsive pleading must be served within 14 days after notice of the court�s action; or (B) if the court grants a motion for a more definite statement, the responsive pleading must be served within 14 days after the more definite statement is served. (b) HOW TO PRESENT DEFENSES. Every defense to a claim for relief in any pleading must be asserted in the responsive pleading if one is required. But a party may assert the following defenses by motion: (1) lack of subject-matter jurisdiction; (2) lack of personal jurisdiction; (3) improper venue; (4) insufficient process; (5) insufficient service of process; (6) failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted; and (7) failure to join a party under Rule 19. A motion asserting any of these defenses must be made before pleading if a responsive pleading is allowed. If a pleading sets out a claim for relief that does not require a responsive pleading, an opposing party may assert at trial any defense to that claim. No defense or objection is waived by joining it with one or more other defenses or objections in a responsive pleading or in a motion. (c) MOTION FOR JUDGMENT ON THE PLEADINGS. After the pleadings are closed�but early enough not to delay trial�a party may move for judgment on the pleadings. Rule 12 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 20 (d) RESULT OF PRESENTING MATTERS OUTSIDE THE PLEADINGS. If, on a motion under Rule 12(b)(6) or 12(c), matters outside the pleadings are presented to and not excluded by the court, the motion must be treated as one for summary judgment under Rule 56. All parties must be given a reasonable opportunity to present all the material that is pertinent to the motion. (e) MOTION FOR A MORE DEFINITE STATEMENT. A party may move for a more definite statement of a pleading to which a responsive pleading is allowed but which is so vague or ambiguous that the party cannot reasonably prepare a response. The motion must be made before filing a responsive pleading and must point out the defects complained of and the details desired. If the court orders a more definite statement and the order is not obeyed within 14 days after notice of the order or within the time the court sets, the court may strike the pleading or issue any other appropriate order. (f) MOTION TO STRIKE. The court may strike from a pleading an insufficient defense or any redundant, immaterial, impertinent, or scandalous matter. The court may act: (1) on its own; or (2) on motion made by a party either before responding to the pleading or, if a response is not allowed, within 21 days after being served with the pleading. (g) JOINING MOTIONS. (1) Right to Join. A motion under this rule may be joined with any other motion allowed by this rule. (2) Limitation on Further Motions. Except as provided in Rule 12(h)(2) or (3), a party that makes a motion under this rule must not make another motion under this rule raising a defense or objection that was available to the party but omitted from its earlier motion. (h) WAIVING AND PRESERVING CERTAIN DEFENSES. (1) When Some Are Waived. A party waives any defense listed in Rule 12(b)(2)�(5) by: (A) omitting it from a motion in the circumstances described in Rule 12(g)(2); or (B) failing to either: (i) make it by motion under this rule; or (ii) include it in a responsive pleading or in an amendment allowed by Rule 15(a)(1) as a matter of course. (2) When to Raise Others. Failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, to join a person required by Rule 19(b), or to state a legal defense to a claim may be raised: (A) in any pleading allowed or ordered under Rule 7(a); (B) by a motion under Rule 12(c); or (C) at trial. (3) Lack of Subject-Matter Jurisdiction. If the court determines at any time that it lacks subject-matter jurisdiction, the court must dismiss the action. (i) HEARING BEFORE TRIAL. If a party so moves, any defense listed in Rule 12(b)(1)�(7)�whether made in a pleading or by motion� and a motion under Rule 12(c) must be heard and decided before trial unless the court orders a deferral until trial. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; 21 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 13 Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 13. Counterclaim and Crossclaim (a) COMPULSORY COUNTERCLAIM. (1) In General. A pleading must state as a counterclaim any claim that�at the time of its service�the pleader has against an opposing party if the claim: (A) arises out of the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the opposing party�s claim; and (B) does not require adding another party over whom the court cannot acquire jurisdiction. (2) Exceptions. The pleader need not state the claim if: (A) when the action was commenced, the claim was the subject of another pending action; or (B) the opposing party sued on its claim by attachment or other process that did not establish personal jurisdiction over the pleader on that claim, and the pleader does not assert any counterclaim under this rule. (b) PERMISSIVE COUNTERCLAIM. A pleading may state as a counterclaim against an opposing party any claim that is not compulsory. (c) RELIEF SOUGHT IN A COUNTERCLAIM. A counterclaim need not diminish or defeat the recovery sought by the opposing party. It may request relief that exceeds in amount or differs in kind from the relief sought by the opposing party. (d) COUNTERCLAIM AGAINST THE UNITED STATES. These rules do not expand the right to assert a counterclaim�or to claim a credit� against the United States or a United States officer or agency. (e) COUNTERCLAIM MATURING OR ACQUIRED AFTER PLEADING. The court may permit a party to file a supplemental pleading asserting a counterclaim that matured or was acquired by the party after serving an earlier pleading. (f) [ABROGATED.] (g) CROSSCLAIM AGAINST A COPARTY. A pleading may state as a crossclaim any claim by one party against a coparty if the claim arises out of the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the original action or of a counterclaim, or if the claim relates to any property that is the subject matter of the original action. The crossclaim may include a claim that the coparty is or may be liable to the crossclaimant for all or part of a claim asserted in the action against the crossclaimant. (h) JOINING ADDITIONAL PARTIES. Rules 19 and 20 govern the addition of a person as a party to a counterclaim or crossclaim. (i) SEPARATE TRIALS; SEPARATE JUDGMENTS. If the court orders separate trials under Rule 42(b), it may enter judgment on a counterclaim or crossclaim under Rule 54(b) when it has jurisdiction to do so, even if the opposing party�s claims have been dismissed or otherwise resolved. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 14 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 22 Rule 14. Third-Party Practice (a) WHEN A DEFENDING PARTY MAY BRING IN A THIRD PARTY. (1) Timing of the Summons and Complaint. A defending party may, as third-party plaintiff, serve a summons and complaint on a nonparty who is or may be liable to it for all or part of the claim against it. But the third-party plaintiff must, by motion, obtain the court�s leave if it files the third-party complaint more than 14 days after serving its original answer. (2) Third-Party Defendant�s Claims and Defenses. The person served with the summons and third-party complaint�the ��third-party defendant��: (A) must assert any defense against the third-party plaintiff�s claim under Rule 12; (B) must assert any counterclaim against the third-party plaintiff under Rule 13(a), and may assert any counterclaim against the third-party plaintiff under Rule 13(b) or any crossclaim against another third-party defendant under Rule 13(g); (C) may assert against the plaintiff any defense that the third-party plaintiff has to the plaintiff�s claim; and (D) may also assert against the plaintiff any claim arising out of the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the plaintiff�s claim against the third-party plaintiff. (3) Plaintiff�s Claims Against a Third-Party Defendant. The plaintiff may assert against the third-party defendant any claim arising out of the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the plaintiff�s claim against the third-party plaintiff. The third-party defendant must then assert any defense under Rule 12 and any counterclaim under Rule 13(a), and may assert any counterclaim under Rule 13(b) or any crossclaim under Rule 13(g). (4) Motion to Strike, Sever, or Try Separately. Any party may move to strike the third-party claim, to sever it, or to try it separately. (5) Third-Party Defendant�s Claim Against a Nonparty. A thirdparty defendant may proceed under this rule against a nonparty who is or may be liable to the third-party defendant for all or part of any claim against it. (6) Third-Party Complaint In Rem. If it is within the admiralty or maritime jurisdiction, a third-party complaint may be in rem. In that event, a reference in this rule to the ��summons�� includes the warrant of arrest, and a reference to the defendant or third-party plaintiff includes, when appropriate, a person who asserts a right under Supplemental Rule C(6)(a)(i) in the property arrested. (b) WHEN A PLAINTIFF MAY BRING IN A THIRD PARTY. When a claim is asserted against a plaintiff, the plaintiff may bring in a third party if this rule would allow a defendant to do so. (c) ADMIRALTY OR MARITIME CLAIM. (1) Scope of Impleader. If a plaintiff asserts an admiralty or maritime claim under Rule 9(h), the defendant or a person who asserts a right under Supplemental Rule C(6)(a)(i) may, as a third-party plaintiff, bring in a third-party defendant who 23 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 15 may be wholly or partly liable�either to the plaintiff or to the third-party plaintiff�for remedy over, contribution, or otherwise on account of the same transaction, occurrence, or series of transactions or occurrences. (2) Defending Against a Demand for Judgment for the Plaintiff. The third-party plaintiff may demand judgment in the plaintiff�s favor against the third-party defendant. In that event, the third-party defendant must defend under Rule 12 against the plaintiff�s claim as well as the third-party plaintiff�s claim; and the action proceeds as if the plaintiff had sued both the third-party defendant and the third-party plaintiff. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 15. Amended and Supplemental Pleadings (a) AMENDMENTS BEFORE TRIAL. (1) Amending as a Matter of Course. A party may amend its pleading once as a matter of course within: (A) 21 days after serving it, or (B) if the pleading is one to which a responsive pleading is required, 21 days after service of a responsive pleading or 21 days after service of a motion under Rule 12(b), (e), or (f), whichever is earlier. (2) Other Amendments. In all other cases, a party may amend its pleading only with the opposing party�s written consent or the court�s leave. The court should freely give leave when justice so requires. (3) Time to Respond. Unless the court orders otherwise, any required response to an amended pleading must be made within the time remaining to respond to the original pleading or within 14 days after service of the amended pleading, whichever is later. (b) AMENDMENTS DURING AND AFTER TRIAL. (1) Based on an Objection at Trial. If, at trial, a party objects that evidence is not within the issues raised in the pleadings, the court may permit the pleadings to be amended. The court should freely permit an amendment when doing so will aid in presenting the merits and the objecting party fails to satisfy the court that the evidence would prejudice that party�s action or defense on the merits. The court may grant a continuance to enable the objecting party to meet the evidence. (2) For Issues Tried by Consent. When an issue not raised by the pleadings is tried by the parties� express or implied consent, it must be treated in all respects as if raised in the pleadings. A party may move�at any time, even after judgment� to amend the pleadings to conform them to the evidence and to raise an unpleaded issue. But failure to amend does not affect the result of the trial of that issue. (c) RELATION BACK OF AMENDMENTS. (1) When an Amendment Relates Back. An amendment to a pleading relates back to the date of the original pleading when: Rule 16 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 24 (A) the law that provides the applicable statute of limitations allows relation back; (B) the amendment asserts a claim or defense that arose out of the conduct, transaction, or occurrence set out�or attempted to be set out�in the original pleading; or (C) the amendment changes the party or the naming of the party against whom a claim is asserted, if Rule 15(c)(1)(B) is satisfied and if, within the period provided by Rule 4(m) for serving the summons and complaint, the party to be brought in by amendment: (i) received such notice of the action that it will not be prejudiced in defending on the merits; and (ii) knew or should have known that the action would have been brought against it, but for a mistake concerning the proper party�s identity. (2) Notice to the United States. When the United States or a United States officer or agency is added as a defendant by amendment, the notice requirements of Rule 15(c)(1)(C)(i) and (ii) are satisfied if, during the stated period, process was delivered or mailed to the United States attorney or the United States attorney�s designee, to the Attorney General of the United States, or to the officer or agency. (d) SUPPLEMENTAL PLEADINGS. On motion and reasonable notice, the court may, on just terms, permit a party to serve a supplemental pleading setting out any transaction, occurrence, or event that happened after the date of the pleading to be supplemented. The court may permit supplementation even though the original pleading is defective in stating a claim or defense. The court may order that the opposing party plead to the supplemental pleading within a specified time. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Pub. L. 102�198, � 11(a), Dec. 9, 1991, 105 Stat. 1626; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 16. Pretrial Conferences; Scheduling; Management (a) PURPOSES OF A PRETRIAL CONFERENCE. In any action, the court may order the attorneys and any unrepresented parties to appear for one or more pretrial conferences for such purposes as: (1) expediting disposition of the action; (2) establishing early and continuing control so that the case will not be protracted because of lack of management; (3) discouraging wasteful pretrial activities; (4) improving the quality of the trial through more thorough preparation; and (5) facilitating settlement. (b) SCHEDULING. (1) Scheduling Order. Except in categories of actions exempted by local rule, the district judge�or a magistrate judge when authorized by local rule�must issue a scheduling order: (A) after receiving the parties� report under Rule 26(f); or 25 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 16 (B) after consulting with the parties� attorneys and any unrepresented parties at a scheduling conference. (2) Time to Issue. The judge must issue the scheduling order as soon as practicable, but unless the judge finds good cause for delay, the judge must issue it within the earlier of 90 days after any defendant has been served with the complaint or 60 days after any defendant has appeared. (3) Contents of the Order. (A) Required Contents. The scheduling order must limit the time to join other parties, amend the pleadings, complete discovery, and file motions. (B) Permitted Contents. The scheduling order may: (i) modify the timing of disclosures under Rules 26(a) and 26(e)(1); (ii) modify the extent of discovery; (iii) provide for disclosure, discovery, or preservation of electronically stored information; (iv) include any agreements the parties reach for asserting claims of privilege or of protection as trialpreparation material after information is produced, including agreements reached under Federal Rule of Evidence 502; (v) direct that before moving for an order relating to discovery, the movant must request a conference with the court; (vi) set dates for pretrial conferences and for trial; and (vii) include other appropriate matters. (4) Modifying a Schedule. A schedule may be modified only for good cause and with the judge�s consent. (c) ATTENDANCE AND MATTERS FOR CONSIDERATION AT A PRETRIAL CONFERENCE. (1) Attendance. A represented party must authorize at least one of its attorneys to make stipulations and admissions about all matters that can reasonably be anticipated for discussion at a pretrial conference. If appropriate, the court may require that a party or its representative be present or reasonably available by other means to consider possible settlement. (2) Matters for Consideration. At any pretrial conference, the court may consider and take appropriate action on the following matters: (A) formulating and simplifying the issues, and eliminating frivolous claims or defenses; (B) amending the pleadings if necessary or desirable; (C) obtaining admissions and stipulations about facts and documents to avoid unnecessary proof, and ruling in advance on the admissibility of evidence; (D) avoiding unnecessary proof and cumulative evidence, and limiting the use of testimony under Federal Rule of Evidence 702; (E) determining the appropriateness and timing of summary adjudication under Rule 56; (F) controlling and scheduling discovery, including orders affecting disclosures and discovery under Rule 26 and Rules 29 through 37; Rule 16 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 26 (G) identifying witnesses and documents, scheduling the filing and exchange of any pretrial briefs, and setting dates for further conferences and for trial; (H) referring matters to a magistrate judge or a master; (I) settling the case and using special procedures to assist in resolving the dispute when authorized by statute or local rule; (J) determining the form and content of the pretrial order; (K) disposing of pending motions; (L) adopting special procedures for managing potentially difficult or protracted actions that may involve complex issues, multiple parties, difficult legal questions, or unusual proof problems; (M) ordering a separate trial under Rule 42(b) of a claim, counterclaim, crossclaim, third-party claim, or particular issue; (N) ordering the presentation of evidence early in the trial on a manageable issue that might, on the evidence, be the basis for a judgment as a matter of law under Rule 50(a) or a judgment on partial findings under Rule 52(c); (O) establishing a reasonable limit on the time allowed to present evidence; and (P) facilitating in other ways the just, speedy, and inexpensive disposition of the action. (d) PRETRIAL ORDERS. After any conference under this rule, the court should issue an order reciting the action taken. This order controls the course of the action unless the court modifies it. (e) FINAL PRETRIAL CONFERENCE AND ORDERS. The court may hold a final pretrial conference to formulate a trial plan, including a plan to facilitate the admission of evidence. The conference must be held as close to the start of trial as is reasonable, and must be attended by at least one attorney who will conduct the trial for each party and by any unrepresented party. The court may modify the order issued after a final pretrial conference only to prevent manifest injustice. (f) SANCTIONS. (1) In General. On motion or on its own, the court may issue any just orders, including those authorized by Rule 37(b)(2)(A)(ii)�(vii), if a party or its attorney: (A) fails to appear at a scheduling or other pretrial conference; (B) is substantially unprepared to participate�or does not participate in good faith�in the conference; or (C) fails to obey a scheduling or other pretrial order. (2) Imposing Fees and Costs. Instead of or in addition to any other sanction, the court must order the party, its attorney, or both to pay the reasonable expenses�including attorney�s fees�incurred because of any noncompliance with this rule, unless the noncompliance was substantially justified or other circumstances make an award of expenses unjust. (As amended Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) 27 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 17 TITLE IV. PARTIES Rule 17. Plaintiff and Defendant; Capacity; Public Officers (a) REAL PARTY IN INTEREST. (1) Designation in General. An action must be prosecuted in the name of the real party in interest. The following may sue in their own names without joining the person for whose benefit the action is brought: (A) an executor; (B) an administrator; (C) a guardian; (D) a bailee; (E) a trustee of an express trust; (F) a party with whom or in whose name a contract has been made for another�s benefit; and (G) a party authorized by statute. (2) Action in the Name of the United States for Another�s Use or Benefit. When a federal statute so provides, an action for another�s use or benefit must be brought in the name of the United States. (3) Joinder of the Real Party in Interest. The court may not dismiss an action for failure to prosecute in the name of the real party in interest until, after an objection, a reasonable time has been allowed for the real party in interest to ratify, join, or be substituted into the action. After ratification, joinder, or substitution, the action proceeds as if it had been originally commenced by the real party in interest. (b) CAPACITY TO SUE OR BE SUED. Capacity to sue or be sued is determined as follows: (1) for an individual who is not acting in a representative capacity, by the law of the individual�s domicile; (2) for a corporation, by the law under which it was organized; and (3) for all other parties, by the law of the state where the court is located, except that: (A) a partnership or other unincorporated association with no such capacity under that state�s law may sue or be sued in its common name to enforce a substantive right existing under the United States Constitution or laws; and (B) 28 U.S.C. �� 754 and 959(a) govern the capacity of a receiver appointed by a United States court to sue or be sued in a United States court. (c) MINOR OR INCOMPETENT PERSON. (1) With a Representative. The following representatives may sue or defend on behalf of a minor or an incompetent person: (A) a general guardian; (B) a committee; (C) a conservator; or (D) a like fiduciary. (2) Without a Representative. A minor or an incompetent person who does not have a duly appointed representative may sue by a next friend or by a guardian ad litem. The court must appoint a guardian ad litem�or issue another appropriate order�to protect a minor or incompetent person who is unrepresented in an action. Rule 18 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 28 (d) PUBLIC OFFICER�S TITLE AND NAME. A public officer who sues or is sued in an official capacity may be designated by official title rather than by name, but the court may order that the officer�s name be added. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 25, 1988, eff. Aug. 1, 1988; Pub. L. 100�690, title VII, � 7049, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4401; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 18. Joinder of Claims (a) IN GENERAL. A party asserting a claim, counterclaim, crossclaim, or third-party claim may join, as independent or alternative claims, as many claims as it has against an opposing party. (b) JOINDER OF CONTINGENT CLAIMS. A party may join two claims even though one of them is contingent on the disposition of the other; but the court may grant relief only in accordance with the parties� relative substantive rights. In particular, a plaintiff may state a claim for money and a claim to set aside a conveyance that is fraudulent as to that plaintiff, without first obtaining a judgment for the money. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 19. Required Joinder of Parties (a) PERSONS REQUIRED TO BE JOINED IF FEASIBLE. (1) Required Party. A person who is subject to service of process and whose joinder will not deprive the court of subjectmatter jurisdiction must be joined as a party if: (A) in that person�s absence, the court cannot accord complete relief among existing parties; or (B) that person claims an interest relating to the subject of the action and is so situated that disposing of the action in the person�s absence may: (i) as a practical matter impair or impede the person�s ability to protect the interest; or (ii) leave an existing party subject to a substantial risk of incurring double, multiple, or otherwise inconsistent obligations because of the interest. (2) Joinder by Court Order. If a person has not been joined as required, the court must order that the person be made a party. A person who refuses to join as a plaintiff may be made either a defendant or, in a proper case, an involuntary plaintiff. (3) Venue. If a joined party objects to venue and the joinder would make venue improper, the court must dismiss that party. (b) WHEN JOINDER IS NOT FEASIBLE. If a person who is required to be joined if feasible cannot be joined, the court must determine whether, in equity and good conscience, the action should proceed among the existing parties or should be dismissed. The factors for the court to consider include: (1) the extent to which a judgment rendered in the person�s absence might prejudice that person or the existing parties; (2) the extent to which any prejudice could be lessened or avoided by: 29 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 21 (A) protective provisions in the judgment; (B) shaping the relief; or (C) other measures; (3) whether a judgment rendered in the person�s absence would be adequate; and (4) whether the plaintiff would have an adequate remedy if the action were dismissed for nonjoinder. (c) PLEADING THE REASONS FOR NONJOINDER. When asserting a claim for relief, a party must state: (1) the name, if known, of any person who is required to be joined if feasible but is not joined; and (2) the reasons for not joining that person. (d) EXCEPTION FOR CLASS ACTIONS. This rule is subject to Rule 23. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 20. Permissive Joinder of Parties (a) PERSONS WHO MAY JOIN OR BE JOINED. (1) Plaintiffs. Persons may join in one action as plaintiffs if: (A) they assert any right to relief jointly, severally, or in the alternative with respect to or arising out of the same transaction, occurrence, or series of transactions or occurrences; and (B) any question of law or fact common to all plaintiffs will arise in the action. (2) Defendants. Persons�as well as a vessel, cargo, or other property subject to admiralty process in rem�may be joined in one action as defendants if: (A) any right to relief is asserted against them jointly, severally, or in the alternative with respect to or arising out of the same transaction, occurrence, or series of transactions or occurrences; and (B) any question of law or fact common to all defendants will arise in the action. (3) Extent of Relief. Neither a plaintiff nor a defendant need be interested in obtaining or defending against all the relief demanded. The court may grant judgment to one or more plaintiffs according to their rights, and against one or more defendants according to their liabilities. (b) PROTECTIVE MEASURES. The court may issue orders�including an order for separate trials�to protect a party against embarrassment, delay, expense, or other prejudice that arises from including a person against whom the party asserts no claim and who asserts no claim against the party. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 21. Misjoinder and Nonjoinder of Parties Misjoinder of parties is not a ground for dismissing an action. On motion or on its own, the court may at any time, on just terms, add or drop a party. The court may also sever any claim against a party. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 22 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 30 Rule 22. Interpleader (a) GROUNDS. (1) By a Plaintiff. Persons with claims that may expose a plaintiff to double or multiple liability may be joined as defendants and required to interplead. Joinder for interpleader is proper even though: (A) the claims of the several claimants, or the titles on which their claims depend, lack a common origin or are adverse and independent rather than identical; or (B) the plaintiff denies liability in whole or in part to any or all of the claimants. (2) By a Defendant. A defendant exposed to similar liability may seek interpleader through a crossclaim or counterclaim. (b) RELATION TO OTHER RULES AND STATUTES. This rule supplements� and does not limit�the joinder of parties allowed by Rule 20. The remedy this rule provides is in addition to�and does not supersede or limit�the remedy provided by 28 U.S.C. �� 1335, 1397, and 2361. An action under those statutes must be conducted under these rules. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 23. Class Actions (a) PREREQUISITES. One or more members of a class may sue or be sued as representative parties on behalf of all members only if: (1) the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable; (2) there are questions of law or fact common to the class; (3) the claims or defenses of the representative parties are typical of the claims or defenses of the class; and (4) the representative parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class. (b) TYPES OF CLASS ACTIONS. A class action may be maintained if Rule 23(a) is satisfied and if: (1) prosecuting separate actions by or against individual class members would create a risk of: (A) inconsistent or varying adjudications with respect to individual class members that would establish incompatible standards of conduct for the party opposing the class; or (B) adjudications with respect to individual class members that, as a practical matter, would be dispositive of the interests of the other members not parties to the individual adjudications or would substantially impair or impede their ability to protect their interests; (2) the party opposing the class has acted or refused to act on grounds that apply generally to the class, so that final injunctive relief or corresponding declaratory relief is appropriate respecting the class as a whole; or (3) the court finds that the questions of law or fact common to class members predominate over any questions affecting only individual members, and that a class action is superior to other available methods for fairly and efficiently adjudicating the controversy. The matters pertinent to these findings include: 31 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 23 (A) the class members� interests in individually controlling the prosecution or defense of separate actions; (B) the extent and nature of any litigation concerning the controversy already begun by or against class members; (C) the desirability or undesirability of concentrating the litigation of the claims in the particular forum; and (D) the likely difficulties in managing a class action. (c) CERTIFICATION ORDER; NOTICE TO CLASS MEMBERS; JUDGMENT; ISSUES CLASSES; SUBCLASSES. (1) Certification Order. (A) Time to Issue. At an early practicable time after a person sues or is sued as a class representative, the court must determine by order whether to certify the action as a class action. (B) Defining the Class; Appointing Class Counsel. An order that certifies a class action must define the class and the class claims, issues, or defenses, and must appoint class counsel under Rule 23(g). (C) Altering or Amending the Order. An order that grants or denies class certification may be altered or amended before final judgment. (2) Notice. (A) For (b)(1) or (b)(2) Classes. For any class certified under Rule 23(b)(1) or (b)(2), the court may direct appropriate notice to the class. (B) For (b)(3) Classes. For any class certified under Rule 23(b)(3), the court must direct to class members the best notice that is practicable under the circumstances, including individual notice to all members who can be identified through reasonable effort. The notice must clearly and concisely state in plain, easily understood language: (i) the nature of the action; (ii) the definition of the class certified; (iii) the class claims, issues, or defenses; (iv) that a class member may enter an appearance through an attorney if the member so desires; (v) that the court will exclude from the class any member who requests exclusion; (vi) the time and manner for requesting exclusion; and (vii) the binding effect of a class judgment on members under Rule 23(c)(3). (3) Judgment. Whether or not favorable to the class, the judgment in a class action must: (A) for any class certified under Rule 23(b)(1) or (b)(2), include and describe those whom the court finds to be class members; and (B) for any class certified under Rule 23(b)(3), include and specify or describe those to whom the Rule 23(c)(2) notice was directed, who have not requested exclusion, and whom the court finds to be class members. (4) Particular Issues. When appropriate, an action may be brought or maintained as a class action with respect to particular issues. Rule 23 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 32 (5) Subclasses. When appropriate, a class may be divided into subclasses that are each treated as a class under this rule. (d) CONDUCTING THE ACTION. (1) In General. In conducting an action under this rule, the court may issue orders that: (A) determine the course of proceedings or prescribe measures to prevent undue repetition or complication in presenting evidence or argument; (B) require�to protect class members and fairly conduct the action�giving appropriate notice to some or all class members of: (i) any step in the action; (ii) the proposed extent of the judgment; or (iii) the members� opportunity to signify whether they consider the representation fair and adequate, to intervene and present claims or defenses, or to otherwise come into the action; (C) impose conditions on the representative parties or on intervenors; (D) require that the pleadings be amended to eliminate allegations about representation of absent persons and that the action proceed accordingly; or (E) deal with similar procedural matters. (2) Combining and Amending Orders. An order under Rule 23(d)(1) may be altered or amended from time to time and may be combined with an order under Rule 16. (e) SETTLEMENT, VOLUNTARY DISMISSAL, OR COMPROMISE. The claims, issues, or defenses of a certified class may be settled, voluntarily dismissed, or compromised only with the court�s approval. The following procedures apply to a proposed settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise: (1) The court must direct notice in a reasonable manner to all class members who would be bound by the proposal. (2) If the proposal would bind class members, the court may approve it only after a hearing and on finding that it is fair, reasonable, and adequate. (3) The parties seeking approval must file a statement identifying any agreement made in connection with the proposal. (4) If the class action was previously certified under Rule 23(b)(3), the court may refuse to approve a settlement unless it affords a new opportunity to request exclusion to individual class members who had an earlier opportunity to request exclusion but did not do so. (5) Any class member may object to the proposal if it requires court approval under this subdivision (e); the objection may be withdrawn only with the court�s approval. (f) APPEALS. A court of appeals may permit an appeal from an order granting or denying class-action certification under this rule if a petition for permission to appeal is filed with the circuit clerk within 14 days after the order is entered. An appeal does not stay proceedings in the district court unless the district judge or the court of appeals so orders. 33 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 23 (g) CLASS COUNSEL. (1) Appointing Class Counsel. Unless a statute provides otherwise, a court that certifies a class must appoint class counsel. In appointing class counsel, the court: (A) must consider: (i) the work counsel has done in identifying or investigating potential claims in the action; (ii) counsel�s experience in handling class actions, other complex litigation, and the types of claims asserted in the action; (iii) counsel�s knowledge of the applicable law; and (iv) the resources that counsel will commit to representing the class; (B) may consider any other matter pertinent to counsel�s ability to fairly and adequately represent the interests of the class; (C) may order potential class counsel to provide information on any subject pertinent to the appointment and to propose terms for attorney�s fees and nontaxable costs; (D) may include in the appointing order provisions about the award of attorney�s fees or nontaxable costs under Rule 23(h); and (E) may make further orders in connection with the appointment. (2) Standard for Appointing Class Counsel. When one applicant seeks appointment as class counsel, the court may appoint that applicant only if the applicant is adequate under Rule 23(g)(1) and (4). If more than one adequate applicant seeks appointment, the court must appoint the applicant best able to represent the interests of the class. (3) Interim Counsel. The court may designate interim counsel to act on behalf of a putative class before determining whether to certify the action as a class action. (4) Duty of Class Counsel. Class counsel must fairly and adequately represent the interests of the class. (h) ATTORNEY�S FEES AND NONTAXABLE COSTS. In a certified class action, the court may award reasonable attorney�s fees and nontaxable costs that are authorized by law or by the parties� agreement. The following procedures apply: (1) A claim for an award must be made by motion under Rule 54(d)(2), subject to the provisions of this subdivision (h), at a time the court sets. Notice of the motion must be served on all parties and, for motions by class counsel, directed to class members in a reasonable manner. (2) A class member, or a party from whom payment is sought, may object to the motion. (3) The court may hold a hearing and must find the facts and state its legal conclusions under Rule 52(a). (4) The court may refer issues related to the amount of the award to a special master or a magistrate judge, as provided in Rule 54(d)(2)(D). (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 24, 1998, eff. Dec. 1, 1998; Mar. 27, 2003, eff. Dec. 1, 2003; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 23.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 34 Rule 23.1. Derivative Actions (a) PREREQUISITES. This rule applies when one or more shareholders or members of a corporation or an unincorporated association bring a derivative action to enforce a right that the corporation or association may properly assert but has failed to enforce. The derivative action may not be maintained if it appears that the plaintiff does not fairly and adequately represent the interests of shareholders or members who are similarly situated in enforcing the right of the corporation or association. (b) PLEADING REQUIREMENTS. The complaint must be verified and must: (1) allege that the plaintiff was a shareholder or member at the time of the transaction complained of, or that the plaintiff�s share or membership later devolved on it by operation of law; (2) allege that the action is not a collusive one to confer jurisdiction that the court would otherwise lack; and (3) state with particularity: (A) any effort by the plaintiff to obtain the desired action from the directors or comparable authority and, if necessary, from the shareholders or members; and (B) the reasons for not obtaining the action or not making the effort. (c) SETTLEMENT, DISMISSAL, AND COMPROMISE. A derivative action may be settled, voluntarily dismissed, or compromised only with the court�s approval. Notice of a proposed settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise must be given to shareholders or members in the manner that the court orders. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 23.2. Actions Relating to Unincorporated Associations This rule applies to an action brought by or against the members of an unincorporated association as a class by naming certain members as representative parties. The action may be maintained only if it appears that those parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the association and its members. In conducting the action, the court may issue any appropriate orders corresponding with those in Rule 23(d), and the procedure for settlement, voluntary dismissal, or compromise must correspond with the procedure in Rule 23(e). (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 24. Intervention (a) INTERVENTION OF RIGHT. On timely motion, the court must permit anyone to intervene who: (1) is given an unconditional right to intervene by a federal statute; or (2) claims an interest relating to the property or transaction that is the subject of the action, and is so situated that disposing of the action may as a practical matter impair or impede the movant�s ability to protect its interest, unless existing parties adequately represent that interest. 35 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 25 (b) PERMISSIVE INTERVENTION. (1) In General. On timely motion, the court may permit anyone to intervene who: (A) is given a conditional right to intervene by a federal statute; or (B) has a claim or defense that shares with the main action a common question of law or fact. (2) By a Government Officer or Agency. On timely motion, the court may permit a federal or state governmental officer or agency to intervene if a party�s claim or defense is based on: (A) a statute or executive order administered by the officer or agency; or (B) any regulation, order, requirement, or agreement issued or made under the statute or executive order. (3) Delay or Prejudice. In exercising its discretion, the court must consider whether the intervention will unduly delay or prejudice the adjudication of the original parties� rights. (c) NOTICE AND PLEADING REQUIRED. A motion to intervene must be served on the parties as provided in Rule 5. The motion must state the grounds for intervention and be accompanied by a pleading that sets out the claim or defense for which intervention is sought. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 25. Substitution of Parties (a) DEATH. (1) Substitution if the Claim Is Not Extinguished. If a party dies and the claim is not extinguished, the court may order substitution of the proper party. A motion for substitution may be made by any party or by the decedent�s successor or representative. If the motion is not made within 90 days after service of a statement noting the death, the action by or against the decedent must be dismissed. (2) Continuation Among the Remaining Parties. After a party�s death, if the right sought to be enforced survives only to or against the remaining parties, the action does not abate, but proceeds in favor of or against the remaining parties. The death should be noted on the record. (3) Service. A motion to substitute, together with a notice of hearing, must be served on the parties as provided in Rule 5 and on nonparties as provided in Rule 4. A statement noting death must be served in the same manner. Service may be made in any judicial district. (b) INCOMPETENCY. If a party becomes incompetent, the court may, on motion, permit the action to be continued by or against the party�s representative. The motion must be served as provided in Rule 25(a)(3). (c) TRANSFER OF INTEREST. If an interest is transferred, the action may be continued by or against the original party unless the court, on motion, orders the transferee to be substituted in the action or joined with the original party. The motion must be served as provided in Rule 25(a)(3). Rule 26 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 36 (d) PUBLIC OFFICERS; DEATH OR SEPARATION FROM OFFICE. An action does not abate when a public officer who is a party in an official capacity dies, resigns, or otherwise ceases to hold office while the action is pending. The officer�s successor is automatically substituted as a party. Later proceedings should be in the substituted party�s name, but any misnomer not affecting the parties� substantial rights must be disregarded. The court may order substitution at any time, but the absence of such an order does not affect the substitution. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 17, 1961, eff. July 19, 1961; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) TITLE V. DISCLOSURES AND DISCOVERY Rule 26. Duty to Disclose; General Provisions Governing Discovery (a) REQUIRED DISCLOSURES. (1) Initial Disclosure. (A) In General. Except as exempted by Rule 26(a)(1)(B) or as otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, a party must, without awaiting a discovery request, provide to the other parties: (i) the name and, if known, the address and telephone number of each individual likely to have discoverable information�along with the subjects of that information� that the disclosing party may use to support its claims or defenses, unless the use would be solely for impeachment; (ii) a copy�or a description by category and location� of all documents, electronically stored information, and tangible things that the disclosing party has in its possession, custody, or control and may use to support its claims or defenses, unless the use would be solely for impeachment; (iii) a computation of each category of damages claimed by the disclosing party�who must also make available for inspection and copying as under Rule 34 the documents or other evidentiary material, unless privileged or protected from disclosure, on which each computation is based, including materials bearing on the nature and extent of injuries suffered; and (iv) for inspection and copying as under Rule 34, any insurance agreement under which an insurance business may be liable to satisfy all or part of a possible judgment in the action or to indemnify or reimburse for payments made to satisfy the judgment. (B) Proceedings Exempt from Initial Disclosure. The following proceedings are exempt from initial disclosure: (i) an action for review on an administrative record; (ii) a forfeiture action in rem arising from a federal statute; (iii) a petition for habeas corpus or any other proceeding to challenge a criminal conviction or sentence; 37 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 26 (iv) an action brought without an attorney by a person in the custody of the United States, a state, or a state subdivision; (v) an action to enforce or quash an administrative summons or subpoena; (vi) an action by the United States to recover benefit payments; (vii) an action by the United States to collect on a student loan guaranteed by the United States; (viii) a proceeding ancillary to a proceeding in another court; and (ix) an action to enforce an arbitration award. (C) Time for Initial Disclosures�In General. A party must make the initial disclosures at or within 14 days after the parties� Rule 26(f) conference unless a different time is set by stipulation or court order, or unless a party objects during the conference that initial disclosures are not appropriate in this action and states the objection in the proposed discovery plan. In ruling on the objection, the court must determine what disclosures, if any, are to be made and must set the time for disclosure. (D) Time for Initial Disclosures�For Parties Served or Joined Later. A party that is first served or otherwise joined after the Rule 26(f) conference must make the initial disclosures within 30 days after being served or joined, unless a different time is set by stipulation or court order. (E) Basis for Initial Disclosure; Unacceptable Excuses. A party must make its initial disclosures based on the information then reasonably available to it. A party is not excused from making its disclosures because it has not fully investigated the case or because it challenges the sufficiency of another party�s disclosures or because another party has not made its disclosures. (2) Disclosure of Expert Testimony. (A) In General. In addition to the disclosures required by Rule 26(a)(1), a party must disclose to the other parties the identity of any witness it may use at trial to present evidence under Federal Rule of Evidence 702, 703, or 705. (B) Witnesses Who Must Provide a Written Report. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, this disclosure must be accompanied by a written report�prepared and signed by the witness�if the witness is one retained or specially employed to provide expert testimony in the case or one whose duties as the party�s employee regularly involve giving expert testimony. The report must contain: (i) a complete statement of all opinions the witness will express and the basis and reasons for them; (ii) the facts or data considered by the witness in forming them; (iii) any exhibits that will be used to summarize or support them; (iv) the witness�s qualifications, including a list of all publications authored in the previous 10 years; (v) a list of all other cases in which, during the previous 4 years, the witness testified as an expert at trial or by deposition; and Rule 26 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 38 (vi) a statement of the compensation to be paid for the study and testimony in the case. (C) Witnesses Who Do Not Provide a Written Report. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, if the witness is not required to provide a written report, this disclosure must state: (i) the subject matter on which the witness is expected to present evidence under Federal Rule of Evidence 702, 703, or 705; and (ii) a summary of the facts and opinions to which the witness is expected to testify. (D) Time to Disclose Expert Testimony. A party must make these disclosures at the times and in the sequence that the court orders. Absent a stipulation or a court order, the disclosures must be made: (i) at least 90 days before the date set for trial or for the case to be ready for trial; or (ii) if the evidence is intended solely to contradict or rebut evidence on the same subject matter identified by another party under Rule 26(a)(2)(B) or (C), within 30 days after the other party�s disclosure. (E) Supplementing the Disclosure. The parties must supplement these disclosures when required under Rule 26(e). (3) Pretrial Disclosures. (A) In General. In addition to the disclosures required by Rule 26(a)(1) and (2), a party must provide to the other parties and promptly file the following information about the evidence that it may present at trial other than solely for impeachment: (i) the name and, if not previously provided, the address and telephone number of each witness�separately identifying those the party expects to present and those it may call if the need arises; (ii) the designation of those witnesses whose testimony the party expects to present by deposition and, if not taken stenographically, a transcript of the pertinent parts of the deposition; and (iii) an identification of each document or other exhibit, including summaries of other evidence�separately identifying those items the party expects to offer and those it may offer if the need arises. (B) Time for Pretrial Disclosures; Objections. Unless the court orders otherwise, these disclosures must be made at least 30 days before trial. Within 14 days after they are made, unless the court sets a different time, a party may serve and promptly file a list of the following objections: any objections to the use under Rule 32(a) of a deposition designated by another party under Rule 26(a)(3)(A)(ii); and any objection, together with the grounds for it, that may be made to the admissibility of materials identified under Rule 26(a)(3)(A)(iii). An objection not so made�except for one under Federal Rule of Evidence 402 or 403�is waived unless excused by the court for good cause. (4) Form of Disclosures. Unless the court orders otherwise, all disclosures under Rule 26(a) must be in writing, signed, and served. 39 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 26 (b) DISCOVERY SCOPE AND LIMITS. (1) Scope in General. Unless otherwise limited by court order, the scope of discovery is as follows: Parties may obtain discovery regarding any nonprivileged matter that is relevant to any party�s claim or defense and proportional to the needs of the case, considering the importance of the issues at stake in the action, the amount in controversy, the parties� relative access to relevant information, the parties� resources, the importance of the discovery in resolving the issues, and whether the burden or expense of the proposed discovery outweighs its likely benefit. Information within this scope of discovery need not be admissible in evidence to be discoverable. (2) Limitations on Frequency and Extent. (A) When Permitted. By order, the court may alter the limits in these rules on the number of depositions and interrogatories or on the length of depositions under Rule 30. By order or local rule, the court may also limit the number of requests under Rule 36. (B) Specific Limitations on Electronically Stored Information. A party need not provide discovery of electronically stored information from sources that the party identifies as not reasonably accessible because of undue burden or cost. On motion to compel discovery or for a protective order, the party from whom discovery is sought must show that the information is not reasonably accessible because of undue burden or cost. If that showing is made, the court may nonetheless order discovery from such sources if the requesting party shows good cause, considering the limitations of Rule 26(b)(2)(C). The court may specify conditions for the discovery. (C) When Required. On motion or on its own, the court must limit the frequency or extent of discovery otherwise allowed by these rules or by local rule if it determines that: (i) the discovery sought is unreasonably cumulative or duplicative, or can be obtained from some other source that is more convenient, less burdensome, or less expensive; (ii) the party seeking discovery has had ample opportunity to obtain the information by discovery in the action; or (iii) the proposed discovery is outside the scope permitted by Rule 26(b)(1). (3) Trial Preparation: Materials. (A) Documents and Tangible Things. Ordinarily, a party may not discover documents and tangible things that are prepared in anticipation of litigation or for trial by or for another party or its representative (including the other party�s attorney, consultant, surety, indemnitor, insurer, or agent). But, subject to Rule 26(b)(4), those materials may be discovered if: (i) they are otherwise discoverable under Rule 26(b)(1); and (ii) the party shows that it has substantial need for the materials to prepare its case and cannot, without Rule 26 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 40 undue hardship, obtain their substantial equivalent by other means. (B) Protection Against Disclosure. If the court orders discovery of those materials, it must protect against disclosure of the mental impressions, conclusions, opinions, or legal theories of a party�s attorney or other representative concerning the litigation. (C) Previous Statement. Any party or other person may, on request and without the required showing, obtain the person�s own previous statement about the action or its subject matter. If the request is refused, the person may move for a court order, and Rule 37(a)(5) applies to the award of expenses. A previous statement is either: (i) a written statement that the person has signed or otherwise adopted or approved; or (ii) a contemporaneous stenographic, mechanical, electrical, or other recording�or a transcription of it�that recites substantially verbatim the person�s oral statement. (4) Trial Preparation: Experts. (A) Deposition of an Expert Who May Testify. A party may depose any person who has been identified as an expert whose opinions may be presented at trial. If Rule 26(a)(2)(B) requires a report from the expert, the deposition may be conducted only after the report is provided. (B) Trial-Preparation Protection for Draft Reports or Disclosures. Rules 26(b)(3)(A) and (B) protect drafts of any report or disclosure required under Rule 26(a)(2), regardless of the form in which the draft is recorded. (C) Trial-Preparation Protection for Communications Between a Party�s Attorney and Expert Witnesses. Rules 26(b)(3)(A) and (B) protect communications between the party�s attorney and any witness required to provide a report under Rule 26(a)(2)(B), regardless of the form of the communications, except to the extent that the communications: (i) relate to compensation for the expert�s study or testimony; (ii) identify facts or data that the party�s attorney provided and that the expert considered in forming the opinions to be expressed; or (iii) identify assumptions that the party�s attorney provided and that the expert relied on in forming the opinions to be expressed. (D) Expert Employed Only for Trial Preparation. Ordinarily, a party may not, by interrogatories or deposition, discover facts known or opinions held by an expert who has been retained or specially employed by another party in anticipation of litigation or to prepare for trial and who is not expected to be called as a witness at trial. But a party may do so only: (i) as provided in Rule 35(b); or (ii) on showing exceptional circumstances under which it is impracticable for the party to obtain facts or opinions on the same subject by other means. 41 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 26 (E) Payment. Unless manifest injustice would result, the court must require that the party seeking discovery: (i) pay the expert a reasonable fee for time spent in responding to discovery under Rule 26(b)(4)(A) or (D); and (ii) for discovery under (D), also pay the other party a fair portion of the fees and expenses it reasonably incurred in obtaining the expert�s facts and opinions. (5) Claiming Privilege or Protecting Trial-Preparation Materials. (A) Information Withheld. When a party withholds information otherwise discoverable by claiming that the information is privileged or subject to protection as trial-preparation material, the party must: (i) expressly make the claim; and (ii) describe the nature of the documents, communications, or tangible things not produced or disclosed� and do so in a manner that, without revealing information itself privileged or protected, will enable other parties to assess the claim. (B) Information Produced. If information produced in discovery is subject to a claim of privilege or of protection as trial-preparation material, the party making the claim may notify any party that received the information of the claim and the basis for it. After being notified, a party must promptly return, sequester, or destroy the specified information and any copies it has; must not use or disclose the information until the claim is resolved; must take reasonable steps to retrieve the information if the party disclosed it before being notified; and may promptly present the information to the court under seal for a determination of the claim. The producing party must preserve the information until the claim is resolved. (c) PROTECTIVE ORDERS. (1) In General. A party or any person from whom discovery is sought may move for a protective order in the court where the action is pending�or as an alternative on matters relating to a deposition, in the court for the district where the deposition will be taken. The motion must include a certification that the movant has in good faith conferred or attempted to confer with other affected parties in an effort to resolve the dispute without court action. The court may, for good cause, issue an order to protect a party or person from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense, including one or more of the following: (A) forbidding the disclosure or discovery; (B) specifying terms, including time and place or the allocation of expenses, for the disclosure or discovery; (C) prescribing a discovery method other than the one selected by the party seeking discovery; (D) forbidding inquiry into certain matters, or limiting the scope of disclosure or discovery to certain matters; (E) designating the persons who may be present while the discovery is conducted; (F) requiring that a deposition be sealed and opened only on court order; Rule 26 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 42 (G) requiring that a trade secret or other confidential research, development, or commercial information not be revealed or be revealed only in a specified way; and (H) requiring that the parties simultaneously file specified documents or information in sealed envelopes, to be opened as the court directs. (2) Ordering Discovery. If a motion for a protective order is wholly or partly denied, the court may, on just terms, order that any party or person provide or permit discovery. (3) Awarding Expenses. Rule 37(a)(5) applies to the award of expenses. (d) TIMING AND SEQUENCE OF DISCOVERY. (1) Timing. A party may not seek discovery from any source before the parties have conferred as required by Rule 26(f), except in a proceeding exempted from initial disclosure under Rule 26(a)(1)(B), or when authorized by these rules, by stipulation, or by court order. (2) Early Rule 34 Requests. (A) Time to Deliver. More than 21 days after the summons and complaint are served on a party, a request under Rule 34 may be delivered: (i) to that party by any other party, and (ii) by that party to any plaintiff or to any other party that has been served. (B) When Considered Served. The request is considered to have been served at the first Rule 26(f) conference. (3) Sequence. Unless the parties stipulate or the court orders otherwise for the parties� and witnesses� convenience and in the interests of justice: (A) methods of discovery may be used in any sequence; and (B) discovery by one party does not require any other party to delay its discovery. (e) SUPPLEMENTING DISCLOSURES AND RESPONSES. (1) In General. A party who has made a disclosure under Rule 26(a)�or who has responded to an interrogatory, request for production, or request for admission�must supplement or correct its disclosure or response: (A) in a timely manner if the party learns that in some material respect the disclosure or response is incomplete or incorrect, and if the additional or corrective information has not otherwise been made known to the other parties during the discovery process or in writing; or (B) as ordered by the court. (2) Expert Witness. For an expert whose report must be disclosed under Rule 26(a)(2)(B), the party�s duty to supplement extends both to information included in the report and to information given during the expert�s deposition. Any additions or changes to this information must be disclosed by the time the party�s pretrial disclosures under Rule 26(a)(3) are due. (f) CONFERENCE OF THE PARTIES; PLANNING FOR DISCOVERY. (1) Conference Timing. Except in a proceeding exempted from initial disclosure under Rule 26(a)(1)(B) or when the court orders otherwise, the parties must confer as soon as practicable� and in any event at least 21 days before a scheduling 43 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 26 conference is to be held or a scheduling order is due under Rule 16(b). (2) Conference Content; Parties� Responsibilities. In conferring, the parties must consider the nature and basis of their claims and defenses and the possibilities for promptly settling or resolving the case; make or arrange for the disclosures required by Rule 26(a)(1); discuss any issues about preserving discoverable information; and develop a proposed discovery plan. The attorneys of record and all unrepresented parties that have appeared in the case are jointly responsible for arranging the conference, for attempting in good faith to agree on the proposed discovery plan, and for submitting to the court within 14 days after the conference a written report outlining the plan. The court may order the parties or attorneys to attend the conference in person. (3) Discovery Plan. A discovery plan must state the parties� views and proposals on: (A) what changes should be made in the timing, form, or requirement for disclosures under Rule 26(a), including a statement of when initial disclosures were made or will be made; (B) the subjects on which discovery may be needed, when discovery should be completed, and whether discovery should be conducted in phases or be limited to or focused on particular issues; (C) any issues about disclosure, discovery, or preservation of electronically stored information, including the form or forms in which it should be produced; (D) any issues about claims of privilege or of protection as trial-preparation materials, including�if the parties agree on a procedure to assert these claims after production� whether to ask the court to include their agreement in an order under Federal Rule of Evidence 502; (E) what changes should be made in the limitations on discovery imposed under these rules or by local rule, and what other limitations should be imposed; and (F) any other orders that the court should issue under Rule 26(c) or under Rule 16(b) and (c). (4) Expedited Schedule. If necessary to comply with its expedited schedule for Rule 16(b) conferences, a court may by local rule: (A) require the parties� conference to occur less than 21 days before the scheduling conference is held or a scheduling order is due under Rule 16(b); and (B) require the written report outlining the discovery plan to be filed less than 14 days after the parties� conference, or excuse the parties from submitting a written report and permit them to report orally on their discovery plan at the Rule 16(b) conference. (g) SIGNING DISCLOSURES AND DISCOVERY REQUESTS, RESPONSES, AND OBJECTIONS. (1) Signature Required; Effect of Signature. Every disclosure under Rule 26(a)(1) or (a)(3) and every discovery request, response, or objection must be signed by at least one attorney Rule 27 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 44 of record in the attorney�s own name�or by the party personally, if unrepresented�and must state the signer�s address, email address, and telephone number. By signing, an attorney or party certifies that to the best of the person�s knowledge, information, and belief formed after a reasonable inquiry: (A) with respect to a disclosure, it is complete and correct as of the time it is made; and (B) with respect to a discovery request, response, or objection, it is: (i) consistent with these rules and warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law, or for establishing new law; (ii) not interposed for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation; and (iii) neither unreasonable nor unduly burdensome or expensive, considering the needs of the case, prior discovery in the case, the amount in controversy, and the importance of the issues at stake in the action. (2) Failure to Sign. Other parties have no duty to act on an unsigned disclosure, request, response, or objection until it is signed, and the court must strike it unless a signature is promptly supplied after the omission is called to the attorney�s or party�s attention. (3) Sanction for Improper Certification. If a certification violates this rule without substantial justification, the court, on motion or on its own, must impose an appropriate sanction on the signer, the party on whose behalf the signer was acting, or both. The sanction may include an order to pay the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, caused by the violation. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 28, 2010, eff. Dec. 1, 2010; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 27. Depositions to Perpetuate Testimony (a) BEFORE AN ACTION IS FILED. (1) Petition. A person who wants to perpetuate testimony about any matter cognizable in a United States court may file a verified petition in the district court for the district where any expected adverse party resides. The petition must ask for an order authorizing the petitioner to depose the named persons in order to perpetuate their testimony. The petition must be titled in the petitioner�s name and must show: (A) that the petitioner expects to be a party to an action cognizable in a United States court but cannot presently bring it or cause it to be brought; (B) the subject matter of the expected action and the petitioner�s interest; (C) the facts that the petitioner wants to establish by the proposed testimony and the reasons to perpetuate it; 45 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 27 (D) the names or a description of the persons whom the petitioner expects to be adverse parties and their addresses, so far as known; and (E) the name, address, and expected substance of the testimony of each deponent. (2) Notice and Service. At least 21 days before the hearing date, the petitioner must serve each expected adverse party with a copy of the petition and a notice stating the time and place of the hearing. The notice may be served either inside or outside the district or state in the manner provided in Rule 4. If that service cannot be made with reasonable diligence on an expected adverse party, the court may order service by publication or otherwise. The court must appoint an attorney to represent persons not served in the manner provided in Rule 4 and to cross-examine the deponent if an unserved person is not otherwise represented. If any expected adverse party is a minor or is incompetent, Rule 17(c) applies. (3) Order and Examination. If satisfied that perpetuating the testimony may prevent a failure or delay of justice, the court must issue an order that designates or describes the persons whose depositions may be taken, specifies the subject matter of the examinations, and states whether the depositions will be taken orally or by written interrogatories. The depositions may then be taken under these rules, and the court may issue orders like those authorized by Rules 34 and 35. A reference in these rules to the court where an action is pending means, for purposes of this rule, the court where the petition for the deposition was filed. (4) Using the Deposition. A deposition to perpetuate testimony may be used under Rule 32(a) in any later-filed districtcourt action involving the same subject matter if the deposition either was taken under these rules or, although not so taken, would be admissible in evidence in the courts of the state where it was taken. (b) PENDING APPEAL. (1) In General. The court where a judgment has been rendered may, if an appeal has been taken or may still be taken, permit a party to depose witnesses to perpetuate their testimony for use in the event of further proceedings in that court. (2) Motion. The party who wants to perpetuate testimony may move for leave to take the depositions, on the same notice and service as if the action were pending in the district court. The motion must show: (A) the name, address, and expected substance of the testimony of each deponent; and (B) the reasons for perpetuating the testimony. (3) Court Order. If the court finds that perpetuating the testimony may prevent a failure or delay of justice, the court may permit the depositions to be taken and may issue orders like those authorized by Rules 34 and 35. The depositions may be taken and used as any other deposition taken in a pending district- court action. (c) PERPETUATION BY AN ACTION. This rule does not limit a court�s power to entertain an action to perpetuate testimony. Rule 28 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 46 (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 1, 1971, eff. July 1, 1971; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 25, 2005, eff. Dec. 1, 2005; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 28. Persons Before Whom Depositions May Be Taken (a) WITHIN THE UNITED STATES. (1) In General. Within the United States or a territory or insular possession subject to United States jurisdiction, a deposition must be taken before: (A) an officer authorized to administer oaths either by federal law or by the law in the place of examination; or (B) a person appointed by the court where the action is pending to administer oaths and take testimony. (2) Definition of ��Officer.�� The term ��officer�� in Rules 30, 31, and 32 includes a person appointed by the court under this rule or designated by the parties under Rule 29(a). (b) IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY. (1) In General. A deposition may be taken in a foreign country: (A) under an applicable treaty or convention; (B) under a letter of request, whether or not captioned a ��letter rogatory��; (C) on notice, before a person authorized to administer oaths either by federal law or by the law in the place of examination; or (D) before a person commissioned by the court to administer any necessary oath and take testimony. (2) Issuing a Letter of Request or a Commission. A letter of request, a commission, or both may be issued: (A) on appropriate terms after an application and notice of it; and (B) without a showing that taking the deposition in another manner is impracticable or inconvenient. (3) Form of a Request, Notice, or Commission. When a letter of request or any other device is used according to a treaty or convention, it must be captioned in the form prescribed by that treaty or convention. A letter of request may be addressed ��To the Appropriate Authority in [name of country].�� A deposition notice or a commission must designate by name or descriptive title the person before whom the deposition is to be taken. (4) Letter of Request�Admitting Evidence. Evidence obtained in response to a letter of request need not be excluded merely because it is not a verbatim transcript, because the testimony was not taken under oath, or because of any similar departure from the requirements for depositions taken within the United States. (c) DISQUALIFICATION. A deposition must not be taken before a person who is any party�s relative, employee, or attorney; who is related to or employed by any party�s attorney; or who is financially interested in the action. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 1, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) 47 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 30 Rule 29. Stipulations About Discovery Procedure Unless the court orders otherwise, the parties may stipulate that: (a) a deposition may be taken before any person, at any time or place, on any notice, and in the manner specified�in which event it may be used in the same way as any other deposition; and (b) other procedures governing or limiting discovery be modified� but a stipulation extending the time for any form of discovery must have court approval if it would interfere with the time set for completing discovery, for hearing a motion, or for trial. (As amended Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 30. Depositions by Oral Examination (a) WHEN A DEPOSITION MAY BE TAKEN. (1) Without Leave. A party may, by oral questions, depose any person, including a party, without leave of court except as provided in Rule 30(a)(2). The deponent�s attendance may be compelled by subpoena under Rule 45. (2) With Leave. A party must obtain leave of court, and the court must grant leave to the extent consistent with Rule 26(b)(1) and (2): (A) if the parties have not stipulated to the deposition and: (i) the deposition would result in more than 10 depositions being taken under this rule or Rule 31 by the plaintiffs, or by the defendants, or by the third-party defendants; (ii) the deponent has already been deposed in the case; or (iii) the party seeks to take the deposition before the time specified in Rule 26(d), unless the party certifies in the notice, with supporting facts, that the deponent is expected to leave the United States and be unavailable for examination in this country after that time; or (B) if the deponent is confined in prison. (b) NOTICE OF THE DEPOSITION; OTHER FORMAL REQUIREMENTS. (1) Notice in General. A party who wants to depose a person by oral questions must give reasonable written notice to every other party. The notice must state the time and place of the deposition and, if known, the deponent�s name and address. If the name is unknown, the notice must provide a general description sufficient to identify the person or the particular class or group to which the person belongs. (2) Producing Documents. If a subpoena duces tecum is to be served on the deponent, the materials designated for production, as set out in the subpoena, must be listed in the notice or in an attachment. The notice to a party deponent may be accompanied by a request under Rule 34 to produce documents and tangible things at the deposition. Rule 30 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 48 (3) Method of Recording. (A) Method Stated in the Notice. The party who notices the deposition must state in the notice the method for recording the testimony. Unless the court orders otherwise, testimony may be recorded by audio, audiovisual, or stenographic means. The noticing party bears the recording costs. Any party may arrange to transcribe a deposition. (B) Additional Method. With prior notice to the deponent and other parties, any party may designate another method for recording the testimony in addition to that specified in the original notice. That party bears the expense of the additional record or transcript unless the court orders otherwise. (4) By Remote Means. The parties may stipulate�or the court may on motion order�that a deposition be taken by telephone or other remote means. For the purpose of this rule and Rules 28(a), 37(a)(2), and 37(b)(1), the deposition takes place where the deponent answers the questions. (5) Officer�s Duties. (A) Before the Deposition. Unless the parties stipulate otherwise, a deposition must be conducted before an officer appointed or designated under Rule 28. The officer must begin the deposition with an on-the-record statement that includes: (i) the officer�s name and business address; (ii) the date, time, and place of the deposition; (iii) the deponent�s name; (iv) the officer�s administration of the oath or affirmation to the deponent; and (v) the identity of all persons present. (B) Conducting the Deposition; Avoiding Distortion. If the deposition is recorded nonstenographically, the officer must repeat the items in Rule 30(b)(5)(A)(i)�(iii) at the beginning of each unit of the recording medium. The deponent�s and attorneys� appearance or demeanor must not be distorted through recording techniques. (C) After the Deposition. At the end of a deposition, the officer must state on the record that the deposition is complete and must set out any stipulations made by the attorneys about custody of the transcript or recording and of the exhibits, or about any other pertinent matters. (6) Notice or Subpoena Directed to an Organization. In its notice or subpoena, a party may name as the deponent a public or private corporation, a partnership, an association, a governmental agency, or other entity and must describe with reasonable particularity the matters for examination. The named organization must then designate one or more officers, directors, or managing agents, or designate other persons who consent to testify on its behalf; and it may set out the matters on which each person designated will testify. A subpoena must advise a nonparty organization of its duty to make this designation. The persons designated must testify about information known or reasonably available to the organization. This paragraph (6) does not preclude a deposition by any other procedure allowed by these rules. 49 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 30 (c) EXAMINATION AND CROSS-EXAMINATION; RECORD OF THE EXAMINATION; OBJECTIONS; WRITTEN QUESTIONS. (1) Examination and Cross-Examination. The examination and cross-examination of a deponent proceed as they would at trial under the Federal Rules of Evidence, except Rules 103 and 615. After putting the deponent under oath or affirmation, the officer must record the testimony by the method designated under Rule 30(b)(3)(A). The testimony must be recorded by the officer personally or by a person acting in the presence and under the direction of the officer. (2) Objections. An objection at the time of the examination� whether to evidence, to a party�s conduct, to the officer�s qualifications, to the manner of taking the deposition, or to any other aspect of the deposition�must be noted on the record, but the examination still proceeds; the testimony is taken subject to any objection. An objection must be stated concisely in a nonargumentative and nonsuggestive manner. A person may instruct a deponent not to answer only when necessary to preserve a privilege, to enforce a limitation ordered by the court, or to present a motion under Rule 30(d)(3). (3) Participating Through Written Questions. Instead of participating in the oral examination, a party may serve written questions in a sealed envelope on the party noticing the deposition, who must deliver them to the officer. The officer must ask the deponent those questions and record the answers verbatim. (d) DURATION; SANCTION; MOTION TO TERMINATE OR LIMIT. (1) Duration. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, a deposition is limited to one day of 7 hours. The court must allow additional time consistent with Rule 26(b)(1) and (2) if needed to fairly examine the deponent or if the deponent, another person, or any other circumstance impedes or delays the examination. (2) Sanction. The court may impose an appropriate sanction� including the reasonable expenses and attorney�s fees incurred by any party�on a person who impedes, delays, or frustrates the fair examination of the deponent. (3) Motion to Terminate or Limit. (A) Grounds. At any time during a deposition, the deponent or a party may move to terminate or limit it on the ground that it is being conducted in bad faith or in a manner that unreasonably annoys, embarrasses, or oppresses the deponent or party. The motion may be filed in the court where the action is pending or the deposition is being taken. If the objecting deponent or party so demands, the deposition must be suspended for the time necessary to obtain an order. (B) Order. The court may order that the deposition be terminated or may limit its scope and manner as provided in Rule 26(c). If terminated, the deposition may be resumed only by order of the court where the action is pending. (C) Award of Expenses. Rule 37(a)(5) applies to the award of expenses. Rule 30 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 50 (e) REVIEW BY THE WITNESS; CHANGES. (1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the deponent or a party before the deposition is completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days after being notified by the officer that the transcript or recording is available in which: (A) to review the transcript or recording; and (B) if there are changes in form or substance, to sign a statement listing the changes and the reasons for making them. (2) Changes Indicated in the Officer�s Certificate. The officer must note in the certificate prescribed by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent makes during the 30-day period. (f) CERTIFICATION AND DELIVERY; EXHIBITS; COPIES OF THE TRANSCRIPT OR RECORDING; FILING. (1) Certification and Delivery. The officer must certify in writing that the witness was duly sworn and that the deposition accurately records the witness�s testimony. The certificate must accompany the record of the deposition. Unless the court orders otherwise, the officer must seal the deposition in an envelope or package bearing the title of the action and marked ��Deposition of [witness�s name]�� and must promptly send it to the attorney who arranged for the transcript or recording. The attorney must store it under conditions that will protect it against loss, destruction, tampering, or deterioration. (2) Documents and Tangible Things. (A) Originals and Copies. Documents and tangible things produced for inspection during a deposition must, on a party�s request, be marked for identification and attached to the deposition. Any party may inspect and copy them. But if the person who produced them wants to keep the originals, the person may: (i) offer copies to be marked, attached to the deposition, and then used as originals�after giving all parties a fair opportunity to verify the copies by comparing them with the originals; or (ii) give all parties a fair opportunity to inspect and copy the originals after they are marked�in which event the originals may be used as if attached to the deposition. (B) Order Regarding the Originals. Any party may move for an order that the originals be attached to the deposition pending final disposition of the case. (3) Copies of the Transcript or Recording. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, the officer must retain the stenographic notes of a deposition taken stenographically or a copy of the recording of a deposition taken by another method. When paid reasonable charges, the officer must furnish a copy of the transcript or recording to any party or the deponent. (4) Notice of Filing. A party who files the deposition must promptly notify all other parties of the filing. (g) FAILURE TO ATTEND A DEPOSITION OR SERVE A SUBPOENA; EXPENSES. A party who, expecting a deposition to be taken, attends in person or by an attorney may recover reasonable expenses for 51 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 31 attending, including attorney�s fees, if the noticing party failed to: (1) attend and proceed with the deposition; or (2) serve a subpoena on a nonparty deponent, who consequently did not attend. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 1, 1971, eff. July 1, 1971; Nov. 20, 1972, eff. July 1, 1975; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 31. Depositions by Written Questions (a) WHEN A DEPOSITION MAY BE TAKEN. (1) Without Leave. A party may, by written questions, depose any person, including a party, without leave of court except as provided in Rule 31(a)(2). The deponent�s attendance may be compelled by subpoena under Rule 45. (2) With Leave. A party must obtain leave of court, and the court must grant leave to the extent consistent with Rule 26(b)(1) and (2): (A) if the parties have not stipulated to the deposition and: (i) the deposition would result in more than 10 depositions being taken under this rule or Rule 30 by the plaintiffs, or by the defendants, or by the third-party defendants; (ii) the deponent has already been deposed in the case; or (iii) the party seeks to take a deposition before the time specified in Rule 26(d); or (B) if the deponent is confined in prison. (3) Service; Required Notice. A party who wants to depose a person by written questions must serve them on every other party, with a notice stating, if known, the deponent�s name and address. If the name is unknown, the notice must provide a general description sufficient to identify the person or the particular class or group to which the person belongs. The notice must also state the name or descriptive title and the address of the officer before whom the deposition will be taken. (4) Questions Directed to an Organization. A public or private corporation, a partnership, an association, or a governmental agency may be deposed by written questions in accordance with Rule 30(b)(6). (5) Questions from Other Parties. Any questions to the deponent from other parties must be served on all parties as follows: cross-questions, within 14 days after being served with the notice and direct questions; redirect questions, within 7 days after being served with cross-questions; and recross-questions, within 7 days after being served with redirect questions. The court may, for good cause, extend or shorten these times. (b) DELIVERY TO THE OFFICER; OFFICER�S DUTIES. The party who noticed the deposition must deliver to the officer a copy of all the questions served and of the notice. The officer must promptly proceed in the manner provided in Rule 30(c), (e), and (f) to: Rule 32 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 52 (1) take the deponent�s testimony in response to the questions; (2) prepare and certify the deposition; and (3) send it to the party, attaching a copy of the questions and of the notice. (c) NOTICE OF COMPLETION OR FILING. (1) Completion. The party who noticed the deposition must notify all other parties when it is completed. (2) Filing. A party who files the deposition must promptly notify all other parties of the filing. (As amended Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 32. Using Depositions in Court Proceedings (a) USING DEPOSITIONS. (1) In General. At a hearing or trial, all or part of a deposition may be used against a party on these conditions: (A) the party was present or represented at the taking of the deposition or had reasonable notice of it; (B) it is used to the extent it would be admissible under the Federal Rules of Evidence if the deponent were present and testifying; and (C) the use is allowed by Rule 32(a)(2) through (8). (2) Impeachment and Other Uses. Any party may use a deposition to contradict or impeach the testimony given by the deponent as a witness, or for any other purpose allowed by the Federal Rules of Evidence. (3) Deposition of Party, Agent, or Designee. An adverse party may use for any purpose the deposition of a party or anyone who, when deposed, was the party�s officer, director, managing agent, or designee under Rule 30(b)(6) or 31(a)(4). (4) Unavailable Witness. A party may use for any purpose the deposition of a witness, whether or not a party, if the court finds: (A) that the witness is dead; (B) that the witness is more than 100 miles from the place of hearing or trial or is outside the United States, unless it appears that the witness�s absence was procured by the party offering the deposition; (C) that the witness cannot attend or testify because of age, illness, infirmity, or imprisonment; (D) that the party offering the deposition could not procure the witness�s attendance by subpoena; or (E) on motion and notice, that exceptional circumstances make it desirable�in the interest of justice and with due regard to the importance of live testimony in open court�to permit the deposition to be used. (5) Limitations on Use. (A) Deposition Taken on Short Notice. A deposition must not be used against a party who, having received less than 14 days� notice of the deposition, promptly moved for a protective order under Rule 26(c)(1)(B) requesting that it not be taken or be taken at a different time or place�and 53 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 32 this motion was still pending when the deposition was taken. (B) Unavailable Deponent; Party Could Not Obtain an Attorney. A deposition taken without leave of court under the unavailability provision of Rule 30(a)(2)(A)(iii) must not be used against a party who shows that, when served with the notice, it could not, despite diligent efforts, obtain an attorney to represent it at the deposition. (6) Using Part of a Deposition. If a party offers in evidence only part of a deposition, an adverse party may require the offeror to introduce other parts that in fairness should be considered with the part introduced, and any party may itself introduce any other parts. (7) Substituting a Party. Substituting a party under Rule 25 does not affect the right to use a deposition previously taken. (8) Deposition Taken in an Earlier Action. A deposition lawfully taken and, if required, filed in any federal- or state-court action may be used in a later action involving the same subject matter between the same parties, or their representatives or successors in interest, to the same extent as if taken in the later action. A deposition previously taken may also be used as allowed by the Federal Rules of Evidence. (b) OBJECTIONS TO ADMISSIBILITY. Subject to Rules 28(b) and 32(d)(3), an objection may be made at a hearing or trial to the admission of any deposition testimony that would be inadmissible if the witness were present and testifying. (c) FORM OF PRESENTATION. Unless the court orders otherwise, a party must provide a transcript of any deposition testimony the party offers, but may provide the court with the testimony in nontranscript form as well. On any party�s request, deposition testimony offered in a jury trial for any purpose other than impeachment must be presented in nontranscript form, if available, unless the court for good cause orders otherwise. (d) WAIVER OF OBJECTIONS. (1) To the Notice. An objection to an error or irregularity in a deposition notice is waived unless promptly served in writing on the party giving the notice. (2) To the Officer�s Qualification. An objection based on disqualification of the officer before whom a deposition is to be taken is waived if not made: (A) before the deposition begins; or (B) promptly after the basis for disqualification becomes known or, with reasonable diligence, could have been known. (3) To the Taking of the Deposition. (A) Objection to Competence, Relevance, or Materiality. An objection to a deponent�s competence�or to the competence, relevance, or materiality of testimony�is not waived by a failure to make the objection before or during the deposition, unless the ground for it might have been corrected at that time. (B) Objection to an Error or Irregularity. An objection to an error or irregularity at an oral examination is waived if: Rule 33 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 54 (i) it relates to the manner of taking the deposition, the form of a question or answer, the oath or affirmation, a party�s conduct, or other matters that might have been corrected at that time; and (ii) it is not timely made during the deposition. (C) Objection to a Written Question. An objection to the form of a written question under Rule 31 is waived if not served in writing on the party submitting the question within the time for serving responsive questions or, if the question is a recross-question, within 7 days after being served with it. (4) To Completing and Returning the Deposition. An objection to how the officer transcribed the testimony�or prepared, signed, certified, sealed, endorsed, sent, or otherwise dealt with the deposition�is waived unless a motion to suppress is made promptly after the error or irregularity becomes known or, with reasonable diligence, could have been known. (As amended Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Nov. 20, 1972, eff. July 1, 1975; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 33. Interrogatories to Parties (a) IN GENERAL. (1) Number. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, a party may serve on any other party no more than 25 written interrogatories, including all discrete subparts. Leave to serve additional interrogatories may be granted to the extent consistent with Rule 26(b)(1) and (2). (2) Scope. An interrogatory may relate to any matter that may be inquired into under Rule 26(b). An interrogatory is not objectionable merely because it asks for an opinion or contention that relates to fact or the application of law to fact, but the court may order that the interrogatory need not be answered until designated discovery is complete, or until a pretrial conference or some other time. (b) ANSWERS AND OBJECTIONS. (1) Responding Party. The interrogatories must be answered: (A) by the party to whom they are directed; or (B) if that party is a public or private corporation, a partnership, an association, or a governmental agency, by any officer or agent, who must furnish the information available to the party. (2) Time to Respond. The responding party must serve its answers and any objections within 30 days after being served with the interrogatories. A shorter or longer time may be stipulated to under Rule 29 or be ordered by the court. (3) Answering Each Interrogatory. Each interrogatory must, to the extent it is not objected to, be answered separately and fully in writing under oath. (4) Objections. The grounds for objecting to an interrogatory must be stated with specificity. Any ground not stated in a timely objection is waived unless the court, for good cause, excuses the failure. 55 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 34 (5) Signature. The person who makes the answers must sign them, and the attorney who objects must sign any objections. (c) USE. An answer to an interrogatory may be used to the extent allowed by the Federal Rules of Evidence. (d) OPTION TO PRODUCE BUSINESS RECORDS. If the answer to an interrogatory may be determined by examining, auditing, compiling, abstracting, or summarizing a party�s business records (including electronically stored information), and if the burden of deriving or ascertaining the answer will be substantially the same for either party, the responding party may answer by: (1) specifying the records that must be reviewed, in sufficient detail to enable the interrogating party to locate and identify them as readily as the responding party could; and (2) giving the interrogating party a reasonable opportunity to examine and audit the records and to make copies, compilations, abstracts, or summaries. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 34. Producing Documents, Electronically Stored Information, and Tangible Things, or Entering onto Land, for Inspection and Other Purposes (a) IN GENERAL. A party may serve on any other party a request within the scope of Rule 26(b): (1) to produce and permit the requesting party or its representative to inspect, copy, test, or sample the following items in the responding party�s possession, custody, or control: (A) any designated documents or electronically stored information�including writings, drawings, graphs, charts, photographs, sound recordings, images, and other data or data compilations�stored in any medium from which information can be obtained either directly or, if necessary, after translation by the responding party into a reasonably usable form; or (B) any designated tangible things; or (2) to permit entry onto designated land or other property possessed or controlled by the responding party, so that the requesting party may inspect, measure, survey, photograph, test, or sample the property or any designated object or operation on it. (b) PROCEDURE. (1) Contents of the Request. The request: (A) must describe with reasonable particularity each item or category of items to be inspected; (B) must specify a reasonable time, place, and manner for the inspection and for performing the related acts; and (C) may specify the form or forms in which electronically stored information is to be produced. (2) Responses and Objections. (A) Time to Respond. The party to whom the request is directed must respond in writing within 30 days after being Rule 35 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 56 served or�if the request was delivered under Rule 26(d)(2)�within 30 days after the parties� first Rule 26(f) conference. A shorter or longer time may be stipulated to under Rule 29 or be ordered by the court. (B) Responding to Each Item. For each item or category, the response must either state that inspection and related activities will be permitted as requested or state with specificity the grounds for objecting to the request, including the reasons. The responding party may state that it will produce copies of documents or of electronically stored information instead of permitting inspection. The production must then be completed no later than the time for inspection specified in the request or another reasonable time specified in the response. (C) Objections. An objection must state whether any responsive materials are being withheld on the basis of that objection. An objection to part of a request must specify the part and permit inspection of the rest. (D) Responding to a Request for Production of Electronically Stored Information. The response may state an objection to a requested form for producing electronically stored information. If the responding party objects to a requested form�or if no form was specified in the request�the party must state the form or forms it intends to use. (E) Producing the Documents or Electronically Stored Information. Unless otherwise stipulated or ordered by the court, these procedures apply to producing documents or electronically stored information: (i) A party must produce documents as they are kept in the usual course of business or must organize and label them to correspond to the categories in the request; (ii) If a request does not specify a form for producing electronically stored information, a party must produce it in a form or forms in which it is ordinarily maintained or in a reasonably usable form or forms; and (iii) A party need not produce the same electronically stored information in more than one form. (c) NONPARTIES. As provided in Rule 45, a nonparty may be compelled to produce documents and tangible things or to permit an inspection. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 35. Physical and Mental Examinations (a) ORDER FOR AN EXAMINATION. (1) In General. The court where the action is pending may order a party whose mental or physical condition�including blood group�is in controversy to submit to a physical or mental examination by a suitably licensed or certified examiner. 57 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 36 The court has the same authority to order a party to produce for examination a person who is in its custody or under its legal control. (2) Motion and Notice; Contents of the Order. The order: (A) may be made only on motion for good cause and on notice to all parties and the person to be examined; and (B) must specify the time, place, manner, conditions, and scope of the examination, as well as the person or persons who will perform it. (b) EXAMINER�S REPORT. (1) Request by the Party or Person Examined. The party who moved for the examination must, on request, deliver to the requester a copy of the examiner�s report, together with like reports of all earlier examinations of the same condition. The request may be made by the party against whom the examination order was issued or by the person examined. (2) Contents. The examiner�s report must be in writing and must set out in detail the examiner�s findings, including diagnoses, conclusions, and the results of any tests. (3) Request by the Moving Party. After delivering the reports, the party who moved for the examination may request�and is entitled to receive�from the party against whom the examination order was issued like reports of all earlier or later examinations of the same condition. But those reports need not be delivered by the party with custody or control of the person examined if the party shows that it could not obtain them. (4) Waiver of Privilege. By requesting and obtaining the examiner�s report, or by deposing the examiner, the party examined waives any privilege it may have�in that action or any other action involving the same controversy�concerning testimony about all examinations of the same condition. (5) Failure to Deliver a Report. The court on motion may order�on just terms�that a party deliver the report of an examination. If the report is not provided, the court may exclude the examiner�s testimony at trial. (6) Scope. This subdivision (b) applies also to an examination made by the parties� agreement, unless the agreement states otherwise. This subdivision does not preclude obtaining an examiner�s report or deposing an examiner under other rules. (As amended Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Pub. L. 100�690, title VII, � 7047(b), Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4401; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 36. Requests for Admission (a) SCOPE AND PROCEDURE. (1) Scope. A party may serve on any other party a written request to admit, for purposes of the pending action only, the truth of any matters within the scope of Rule 26(b)(1) relating to: (A) facts, the application of law to fact, or opinions about either; and (B) the genuineness of any described documents. (2) Form; Copy of a Document. Each matter must be separately stated. A request to admit the genuineness of a document must be accompanied by a copy of the document unless Rule 37 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 58 it is, or has been, otherwise furnished or made available for inspection and copying. (3) Time to Respond; Effect of Not Responding. A matter is admitted unless, within 30 days after being served, the party to whom the request is directed serves on the requesting party a written answer or objection addressed to the matter and signed by the party or its attorney. A shorter or longer time for responding may be stipulated to under Rule 29 or be ordered by the court. (4) Answer. If a matter is not admitted, the answer must specifically deny it or state in detail why the answering party cannot truthfully admit or deny it. A denial must fairly respond to the substance of the matter; and when good faith requires that a party qualify an answer or deny only a part of a matter, the answer must specify the part admitted and qualify or deny the rest. The answering party may assert lack of knowledge or information as a reason for failing to admit or deny only if the party states that it has made reasonable inquiry and that the information it knows or can readily obtain is insufficient to enable it to admit or deny. (5) Objections. The grounds for objecting to a request must be stated. A party must not object solely on the ground that the request presents a genuine issue for trial. (6) Motion Regarding the Sufficiency of an Answer or Objection. The requesting party may move to determine the sufficiency of an answer or objection. Unless the court finds an objection justified, it must order that an answer be served. On finding that an answer does not comply with this rule, the court may order either that the matter is admitted or that an amended answer be served. The court may defer its final decision until a pretrial conference or a specified time before trial. Rule 37(a)(5) applies to an award of expenses. (b) EFFECT OF AN ADMISSION; WITHDRAWING OR AMENDING IT. A matter admitted under this rule is conclusively established unless the court, on motion, permits the admission to be withdrawn or amended. Subject to Rule 16(e), the court may permit withdrawal or amendment if it would promote the presentation of the merits of the action and if the court is not persuaded that it would prejudice the requesting party in maintaining or defending the action on the merits. An admission under this rule is not an admission for any other purpose and cannot be used against the party in any other proceeding. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 37. Failure to Make Disclosures or to Cooperate in Discovery; Sanctions (a) MOTION FOR AN ORDER COMPELLING DISCLOSURE OR DISCOVERY. (1) In General. On notice to other parties and all affected persons, a party may move for an order compelling disclosure or discovery. The motion must include a certification that the movant has in good faith conferred or attempted to confer with the person or party failing to make disclosure or discovery in an effort to obtain it without court action. 59 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 37 (2) Appropriate Court. A motion for an order to a party must be made in the court where the action is pending. A motion for an order to a nonparty must be made in the court where the discovery is or will be taken. (3) Specific Motions. (A) To Compel Disclosure. If a party fails to make a disclosure required by Rule 26(a), any other party may move to compel disclosure and for appropriate sanctions. (B) To Compel a Discovery Response. A party seeking discovery may move for an order compelling an answer, designation, production, or inspection. This motion may be made if: (i) a deponent fails to answer a question asked under Rule 30 or 31; (ii) a corporation or other entity fails to make a designation under Rule 30(b)(6) or 31(a)(4); (iii) a party fails to answer an interrogatory submitted under Rule 33; or (iv) a party fails to produce documents or fails to respond that inspection will be permitted�or fails to permit inspection�as requested under Rule 34. (C) Related to a Deposition. When taking an oral deposition, the party asking a question may complete or adjourn the examination before moving for an order. (4) Evasive or Incomplete Disclosure, Answer, or Response. For purposes of this subdivision (a), an evasive or incomplete disclosure, answer, or response must be treated as a failure to disclose, answer, or respond. (5) Payment of Expenses; Protective Orders. (A) If the Motion Is Granted (or Disclosure or Discovery Is Provided After Filing). If the motion is granted�or if the disclosure or requested discovery is provided after the motion was filed�the court must, after giving an opportunity to be heard, require the party or deponent whose conduct necessitated the motion, the party or attorney advising that conduct, or both to pay the movant�s reasonable expenses incurred in making the motion, including attorney�s fees. But the court must not order this payment if: (i) the movant filed the motion before attempting in good faith to obtain the disclosure or discovery without court action; (ii) the opposing party�s nondisclosure, response, or objection was substantially justified; or (iii) other circumstances make an award of expenses unjust. (B) If the Motion Is Denied. If the motion is denied, the court may issue any protective order authorized under Rule 26(c) and must, after giving an opportunity to be heard, require the movant, the attorney filing the motion, or both to pay the party or deponent who opposed the motion its reasonable expenses incurred in opposing the motion, including attorney�s fees. But the court must not order this payment if the motion was substantially justified or other circumstances make an award of expenses unjust. Rule 37 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 60 (C) If the Motion Is Granted in Part and Denied in Part. If the motion is granted in part and denied in part, the court may issue any protective order authorized under Rule 26(c) and may, after giving an opportunity to be heard, apportion the reasonable expenses for the motion. (b) FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH A COURT ORDER. (1) Sanctions Sought in the District Where the Deposition Is Taken. If the court where the discovery is taken orders a deponent to be sworn or to answer a question and the deponent fails to obey, the failure may be treated as contempt of court. If a deposition-related motion is transferred to the court where the action is pending, and that court orders a deponent to be sworn or to answer a question and the deponent fails to obey, the failure may be treated as contempt of either the court where the discovery is taken or the court where the action is pending. (2) Sanctions Sought in the District Where the Action Is Pending. (A) For Not Obeying a Discovery Order. If a party or a party�s officer, director, or managing agent�or a witness designated under Rule 30(b)(6) or 31(a)(4)�fails to obey an order to provide or permit discovery, including an order under Rule 26(f), 35, or 37(a), the court where the action is pending may issue further just orders. They may include the following: (i) directing that the matters embraced in the order or other designated facts be taken as established for purposes of the action, as the prevailing party claims; (ii) prohibiting the disobedient party from supporting or opposing designated claims or defenses, or from introducing designated matters in evidence; (iii) striking pleadings in whole or in part; (iv) staying further proceedings until the order is obeyed; (v) dismissing the action or proceeding in whole or in part; (vi) rendering a default judgment against the disobedient party; or (vii) treating as contempt of court the failure to obey any order except an order to submit to a physical or mental examination. (B) For Not Producing a Person for Examination. If a party fails to comply with an order under Rule 35(a) requiring it to produce another person for examination, the court may issue any of the orders listed in Rule 37(b)(2)(A)(i)�(vi), unless the disobedient party shows that it cannot produce the other person. (C) Payment of Expenses. Instead of or in addition to the orders above, the court must order the disobedient party, the attorney advising that party, or both to pay the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, caused by the failure, unless the failure was substantially justified or other circumstances make an award of expenses unjust. (c) FAILURE TO DISCLOSE, TO SUPPLEMENT AN EARLIER RESPONSE, OR TO ADMIT. (1) Failure to Disclose or Supplement. If a party fails to provide information or identify a witness as required by Rule 26(a) or 61 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 37 (e), the party is not allowed to use that information or witness to supply evidence on a motion, at a hearing, or at a trial, unless the failure was substantially justified or is harmless. In addition to or instead of this sanction, the court, on motion and after giving an opportunity to be heard: (A) may order payment of the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, caused by the failure; (B) may inform the jury of the party�s failure; and (C) may impose other appropriate sanctions, including any of the orders listed in Rule 37(b)(2)(A)(i)�(vi). (2) Failure to Admit. If a party fails to admit what is requested under Rule 36 and if the requesting party later proves a document to be genuine or the matter true, the requesting party may move that the party who failed to admit pay the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, incurred in making that proof. The court must so order unless: (A) the request was held objectionable under Rule 36(a); (B) the admission sought was of no substantial importance; (C) the party failing to admit had a reasonable ground to believe that it might prevail on the matter; or (D) there was other good reason for the failure to admit. (d) PARTY�S FAILURE TO ATTEND ITS OWN DEPOSITION, SERVE ANSWERS TO INTERROGATORIES, OR RESPOND TO A REQUEST FOR INSPECTION. (1) In General. (A) Motion; Grounds for Sanctions. The court where the action is pending may, on motion, order sanctions if: (i) a party or a party�s officer, director, or managing agent�or a person designated under Rule 30(b)(6) or 31(a)(4)�fails, after being served with proper notice, to appear for that person�s deposition; or (ii) a party, after being properly served with interrogatories under Rule 33 or a request for inspection under Rule 34, fails to serve its answers, objections, or written response. (B) Certification. A motion for sanctions for failing to answer or respond must include a certification that the movant has in good faith conferred or attempted to confer with the party failing to act in an effort to obtain the answer or response without court action. (2) Unacceptable Excuse for Failing to Act. A failure described in Rule 37(d)(1)(A) is not excused on the ground that the discovery sought was objectionable, unless the party failing to act has a pending motion for a protective order under Rule 26(c). (3) Types of Sanctions. Sanctions may include any of the orders listed in Rule 37(b)(2)(A)(i)�(vi). Instead of or in addition to these sanctions, the court must require the party failing to act, the attorney advising that party, or both to pay the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, caused by the failure, unless the failure was substantially justified or other circumstances make an award of expenses unjust. (e) FAILURE TO PRESERVE ELECTRONICALLY STORED INFORMATION. If electronically stored information that should have been preserved in the anticipation or conduct of litigation is lost because Rule 38 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 62 a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve it, and it cannot be restored or replaced through additional discovery, the court: (1) upon finding prejudice to another party from loss of the information, may order measures no greater than necessary to cure the prejudice; or (2) only upon finding that the party acted with the intent to deprive another party of the information�s use in the litigation may: (A) presume that the lost information was unfavorable to the party; (B) instruct the jury that it may or must presume the information was unfavorable to the party; or (C) dismiss the action or enter a default judgment. (f) FAILURE TO PARTICIPATE IN FRAMING A DISCOVERY PLAN. If a party or its attorney fails to participate in good faith in developing and submitting a proposed discovery plan as required by Rule 26(f), the court may, after giving an opportunity to be heard, require that party or attorney to pay to any other party the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, caused by the failure. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Pub. L. 96�481, � 205(a), Oct. 21, 1980, 94 Stat. 2330, eff. Oct. 1, 1981; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 16, 2013, eff. Dec. 1, 2013; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) TITLE VI. TRIALS Rule 38. Right to a Jury Trial; Demand (a) RIGHT PRESERVED. The right of trial by jury as declared by the Seventh Amendment to the Constitution�or as provided by a federal statute�is preserved to the parties inviolate. (b) DEMAND. On any issue triable of right by a jury, a party may demand a jury trial by: (1) serving the other parties with a written demand�which may be included in a pleading�no later than 14 days after the last pleading directed to the issue is served; and (2) filing the demand in accordance with Rule 5(d). (c) SPECIFYING ISSUES. In its demand, a party may specify the issues that it wishes to have tried by a jury; otherwise, it is considered to have demanded a jury trial on all the issues so triable. If the party has demanded a jury trial on only some issues, any other party may�within 14 days after being served with the demand or within a shorter time ordered by the court�serve a demand for a jury trial on any other or all factual issues triable by jury. (d) WAIVER; WITHDRAWAL. A party waives a jury trial unless its demand is properly served and filed. A proper demand may be withdrawn only if the parties consent. (e) ADMIRALTY AND MARITIME CLAIMS. These rules do not create a right to a jury trial on issues in a claim that is an admiralty or maritime claim under Rule 9(h). 63 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 41 (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 39. Trial by Jury or by the Court (a) WHEN A DEMAND IS MADE. When a jury trial has been demanded under Rule 38, the action must be designated on the docket as a jury action. The trial on all issues so demanded must be by jury unless: (1) the parties or their attorneys file a stipulation to a nonjury trial or so stipulate on the record; or (2) the court, on motion or on its own, finds that on some or all of those issues there is no federal right to a jury trial. (b) WHEN NO DEMAND IS MADE. Issues on which a jury trial is not properly demanded are to be tried by the court. But the court may, on motion, order a jury trial on any issue for which a jury might have been demanded. (c) ADVISORY JURY; JURY TRIAL BY CONSENT. In an action not triable of right by a jury, the court, on motion or on its own: (1) may try any issue with an advisory jury; or (2) may, with the parties� consent, try any issue by a jury whose verdict has the same effect as if a jury trial had been a matter of right, unless the action is against the United States and a federal statute provides for a nonjury trial. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 40. Scheduling Cases for Trial Each court must provide by rule for scheduling trials. The court must give priority to actions entitled to priority by a federal statute. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 41. Dismissal of Actions (a) VOLUNTARY DISMISSAL. (1) By the Plaintiff. (A) Without a Court Order. Subject to Rules 23(e), 23.1(c), 23.2, and 66 and any applicable federal statute, the plaintiff may dismiss an action without a court order by filing: (i) a notice of dismissal before the opposing party serves either an answer or a motion for summary judgment; or (ii) a stipulation of dismissal signed by all parties who have appeared. (B) Effect. Unless the notice or stipulation states otherwise, the dismissal is without prejudice. But if the plaintiff previously dismissed any federal- or state-court action based on or including the same claim, a notice of dismissal operates as an adjudication on the merits. (2) By Court Order; Effect. Except as provided in Rule 41(a)(1), an action may be dismissed at the plaintiff�s request only by court order, on terms that the court considers proper. If a defendant has pleaded a counterclaim before being served with the plaintiff�s motion to dismiss, the action may be dismissed over the defendant�s objection only if the counterclaim can remain pending for independent adjudication. Unless the order Rule 42 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 64 states otherwise, a dismissal under this paragraph (2) is without prejudice. (b) INVOLUNTARY DISMISSAL; EFFECT. If the plaintiff fails to prosecute or to comply with these rules or a court order, a defendant may move to dismiss the action or any claim against it. Unless the dismissal order states otherwise, a dismissal under this subdivision (b) and any dismissal not under this rule�except one for lack of jurisdiction, improper venue, or failure to join a party under Rule 19�operates as an adjudication on the merits. (c) DISMISSING A COUNTERCLAIM, CROSSCLAIM, OR THIRD-PARTY CLAIM. This rule applies to a dismissal of any counterclaim, crossclaim, or third-party claim. A claimant�s voluntary dismissal under Rule 41(a)(1)(A)(i) must be made: (1) before a responsive pleading is served; or (2) if there is no responsive pleading, before evidence is introduced at a hearing or trial. (d) COSTS OF A PREVIOUSLY DISMISSED ACTION. If a plaintiff who previously dismissed an action in any court files an action based on or including the same claim against the same defendant, the court: (1) may order the plaintiff to pay all or part of the costs of that previous action; and (2) may stay the proceedings until the plaintiff has complied. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Dec. 4, 1967, eff. July 1, 1968; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 42. Consolidation; Separate Trials (a) CONSOLIDATION. If actions before the court involve a common question of law or fact, the court may: (1) join for hearing or trial any or all matters at issue in the actions; (2) consolidate the actions; or (3) issue any other orders to avoid unnecessary cost or delay. (b) SEPARATE TRIALS. For convenience, to avoid prejudice, or to expedite and economize, the court may order a separate trial of one or more separate issues, claims, crossclaims, counterclaims, or third-party claims. When ordering a separate trial, the court must preserve any federal right to a jury trial. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 43. Taking Testimony (a) IN OPEN COURT. At trial, the witnesses� testimony must be taken in open court unless a federal statute, the Federal Rules of Evidence, these rules, or other rules adopted by the Supreme Court provide otherwise. For good cause in compelling circumstances and with appropriate safeguards, the court may permit testimony in open court by contemporaneous transmission from a different location. (b) AFFIRMATION INSTEAD OF AN OATH. When these rules require an oath, a solemn affirmation suffices. 65 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 44 (c) EVIDENCE ON A MOTION. When a motion relies on facts outside the record, the court may hear the matter on affidavits or may hear it wholly or partly on oral testimony or on depositions. (d) INTERPRETER. The court may appoint an interpreter of its choosing; fix reasonable compensation to be paid from funds provided by law or by one or more parties; and tax the compensation as costs. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Nov. 20, 1972, and Dec. 18, 1972, eff. July 1, 1975; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 23, 1996, eff. Dec. 1, 1996; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 44. Proving an Official Record (a) MEANS OF PROVING. (1) Domestic Record. Each of the following evidences an official record�or an entry in it�that is otherwise admissible and is kept within the United States, any state, district, or commonwealth, or any territory subject to the administrative or judicial jurisdiction of the United States: (A) an official publication of the record; or (B) a copy attested by the officer with legal custody of the record�or by the officer�s deputy�and accompanied by a certificate that the officer has custody. The certificate must be made under seal: (i) by a judge of a court of record in the district or political subdivision where the record is kept; or (ii) by any public officer with a seal of office and with official duties in the district or political subdivision where the record is kept. (2) Foreign Record. (A) In General. Each of the following evidences a foreign official record�or an entry in it�that is otherwise admissible: (i) an official publication of the record; or (ii) the record�or a copy�that is attested by an authorized person and is accompanied either by a final certification of genuineness or by a certification under a treaty or convention to which the United States and the country where the record is located are parties. (B) Final Certification of Genuineness. A final certification must certify the genuineness of the signature and official position of the attester or of any foreign official whose certificate of genuineness relates to the attestation or is in a chain of certificates of genuineness relating to the attestation. A final certification may be made by a secretary of a United States embassy or legation; by a consul general, vice consul, or consular agent of the United States; or by a diplomatic or consular official of the foreign country assigned or accredited to the United States. (C) Other Means of Proof. If all parties have had a reasonable opportunity to investigate a foreign record�s authenticity and accuracy, the court may, for good cause, either: (i) admit an attested copy without final certification; or (ii) permit the record to be evidenced by an attested summary with or without a final certification. Rule 44.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 66 (b) LACK OF A RECORD. A written statement that a diligent search of designated records revealed no record or entry of a specified tenor is admissible as evidence that the records contain no such record or entry. For domestic records, the statement must be authenticated under Rule 44(a)(1). For foreign records, the statement must comply with (a)(2)(C)(ii). (c) OTHER PROOF. A party may prove an official record�or an entry or lack of an entry in it�by any other method authorized by law. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 44.1. Determining Foreign Law A party who intends to raise an issue about a foreign country�s law must give notice by a pleading or other writing. In determining foreign law, the court may consider any relevant material or source, including testimony, whether or not submitted by a party or admissible under the Federal Rules of Evidence. The court�s determination must be treated as a ruling on a question of law. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Nov. 20, 1972, eff. July 1, 1975; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 45. Subpoena (a) IN GENERAL. (1) Form and Contents. (A) Requirements�In General. Every subpoena must: (i) state the court from which it issued; (ii) state the title of the action and its civil-action number; (iii) command each person to whom it is directed to do the following at a specified time and place: attend and testify; produce designated documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things in that person�s possession, custody, or control; or permit the inspection of premises; and (iv) set out the text of Rule 45(d) and (e). (B) Command to Attend a Deposition�Notice of the Recording Method. A subpoena commanding attendance at a deposition must state the method for recording the testimony. (C) Combining or Separating a Command to Produce or to Permit Inspection; Specifying the Form for Electronically Stored Information. A command to produce documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things or to permit the inspection of premises may be included in a subpoena commanding attendance at a deposition, hearing, or trial, or may be set out in a separate subpoena. A subpoena may specify the form or forms in which electronically stored information is to be produced. (D) Command to Produce; Included Obligations. A command in a subpoena to produce documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things requires the responding person to permit inspection, copying, testing, or sampling of the materials. 67 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 45 (2) Issuing Court. A subpoena must issue from the court where the action is pending. (3) Issued by Whom. The clerk must issue a subpoena, signed but otherwise in blank, to a party who requests it. That party must complete it before service. An attorney also may issue and sign a subpoena if the attorney is authorized to practice in the issuing court. (4) Notice to Other Parties Before Service. If the subpoena commands the production of documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things or the inspection of premises before trial, then before it is served on the person to whom it is directed, a notice and a copy of the subpoena must be served on each party. (b) SERVICE. (1) By Whom and How; Tendering Fees. Any person who is at least 18 years old and not a party may serve a subpoena. Serving a subpoena requires delivering a copy to the named person and, if the subpoena requires that person�s attendance, tendering the fees for 1 day�s attendance and the mileage allowed by law. Fees and mileage need not be tendered when the subpoena issues on behalf of the United States or any of its officers or agencies. (2) Service in the United States. A subpoena may be served at any place within the United States. (3) Service in a Foreign Country. 28 U.S.C. � 1783 governs issuing and serving a subpoena directed to a United States national or resident who is in a foreign country. (4) Proof of Service. Proving service, when necessary, requires filing with the issuing court a statement showing the date and manner of service and the names of the persons served. The statement must be certified by the server. (c) PLACE OF COMPLIANCE. (1) For a Trial, Hearing, or Deposition. A subpoena may command a person to attend a trial, hearing, or deposition only as follows: (A) within 100 miles of where the person resides, is employed, or regularly transacts business in person; or (B) within the state where the person resides, is employed, or regularly transacts business in person, if the person (i) is a party or a party�s officer; or (ii) is commanded to attend a trial and would not incur substantial expense. (2) For Other Discovery. A subpoena may command: (A) production of documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things at a place within 100 miles of where the person resides, is employed, or regularly transacts business in person; and (B) inspection of premises at the premises to be inspected. (d) PROTECTING A PERSON SUBJECT TO A SUBPOENA; ENFORCEMENT. (1) Avoiding Undue Burden or Expense; Sanctions. A party or attorney responsible for issuing and serving a subpoena must take reasonable steps to avoid imposing undue burden or expense on a person subject to the subpoena. The court for the Rule 45 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 68 district where compliance is required must enforce this duty and impose an appropriate sanction�which may include lost earnings and reasonable attorney�s fees�on a party or attorney who fails to comply. (2) Command to Produce Materials or Permit Inspection. (A) Appearance Not Required. A person commanded to produce documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things, or to permit the inspection of premises, need not appear in person at the place of production or inspection unless also commanded to appear for a deposition, hearing, or trial. (B) Objections. A person commanded to produce documents or tangible things or to permit inspection may serve on the party or attorney designated in the subpoena a written objection to inspecting, copying, testing, or sampling any or all of the materials or to inspecting the premises� or to producing electronically stored information in the form or forms requested. The objection must be served before the earlier of the time specified for compliance or 14 days after the subpoena is served. If an objection is made, the following rules apply: (i) At any time, on notice to the commanded person, the serving party may move the court for the district where compliance is required for an order compelling production or inspection. (ii) These acts may be required only as directed in the order, and the order must protect a person who is neither a party nor a party�s officer from significant expense resulting from compliance. (3) Quashing or Modifying a Subpoena. (A) When Required. On timely motion, the court for the district where compliance is required must quash or modify a subpoena that: (i) fails to allow a reasonable time to comply; (ii) requires a person to comply beyond the geographical limits specified in Rule 45(c); (iii) requires disclosure of privileged or other protected matter, if no exception or waiver applies; or (iv) subjects a person to undue burden. (B) When Permitted. To protect a person subject to or affected by a subpoena, the court for the district where compliance is required may, on motion, quash or modify the subpoena if it requires: (i) disclosing a trade secret or other confidential research, development, or commercial information; or (ii) disclosing an unretained expert�s opinion or information that does not describe specific occurrences in dispute and results from the expert�s study that was not requested by a party. (C) Specifying Conditions as an Alternative. In the circumstances described in Rule 45(d)(3)(B), the court may, instead of quashing or modifying a subpoena, order appearance or production under specified conditions if the serving party: 69 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 45 (i) shows a substantial need for the testimony or material that cannot be otherwise met without undue hardship; and (ii) ensures that the subpoenaed person will be reasonably compensated. (e) DUTIES IN RESPONDING TO A SUBPOENA. (1) Producing Documents or Electronically Stored Information. These procedures apply to producing documents or electronically stored information: (A) Documents. A person responding to a subpoena to produce documents must produce them as they are kept in the ordinary course of business or must organize and label them to correspond to the categories in the demand. (B) Form for Producing Electronically Stored Information Not Specified. If a subpoena does not specify a form for producing electronically stored information, the person responding must produce it in a form or forms in which it is ordinarily maintained or in a reasonably usable form or forms. (C) Electronically Stored Information Produced in Only One Form. The person responding need not produce the same electronically stored information in more than one form. (D) Inaccessible Electronically Stored Information. The person responding need not provide discovery of electronically stored information from sources that the person identifies as not reasonably accessible because of undue burden or cost. On motion to compel discovery or for a protective order, the person responding must show that the information is not reasonably accessible because of undue burden or cost. If that showing is made, the court may nonetheless order discovery from such sources if the requesting party shows good cause, considering the limitations of Rule 26(b)(2)(C). The court may specify conditions for the discovery. (2) Claiming Privilege or Protection. (A) Information Withheld. A person withholding subpoenaed information under a claim that it is privileged or subject to protection as trial-preparation material must: (i) expressly make the claim; and (ii) describe the nature of the withheld documents, communications, or tangible things in a manner that, without revealing information itself privileged or protected, will enable the parties to assess the claim. (B) Information Produced. If information produced in response to a subpoena is subject to a claim of privilege or of protection as trial-preparation material, the person making the claim may notify any party that received the information of the claim and the basis for it. After being notified, a party must promptly return, sequester, or destroy the specified information and any copies it has; must not use or disclose the information until the claim is resolved; must take reasonable steps to retrieve the information if the party disclosed it before being notified; and may promptly present the information under seal to the court Rule 46 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 70 for the district where compliance is required for a determination of the claim. The person who produced the information must preserve the information until the claim is resolved. (f) TRANSFERRING A SUBPOENA-RELATED MOTION. When the court where compliance is required did not issue the subpoena, it may transfer a motion under this rule to the issuing court if the person subject to the subpoena consents or if the court finds exceptional circumstances. Then, if the attorney for a person subject to a subpoena is authorized to practice in the court where the motion was made, the attorney may file papers and appear on the motion as an officer of the issuing court. To enforce its order, the issuing court may transfer the order to the court where the motion was made. (g) CONTEMPT. The court for the district where compliance is required� and also, after a motion is transferred, the issuing court� may hold in contempt a person who, having been served, fails without adequate excuse to obey the subpoena or an order related to it. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Apr. 29, 1980, eff. Aug. 1, 1980; Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 25, 2005, eff. Dec. 1, 2005; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 16, 2013, eff. Dec. 1, 2013.) Rule 46. Objecting to a Ruling or Order A formal exception to a ruling or order is unnecessary. When the ruling or order is requested or made, a party need only state the action that it wants the court to take or objects to, along with the grounds for the request or objection. Failing to object does not prejudice a party who had no opportunity to do so when the ruling or order was made. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 47. Selecting Jurors (a) EXAMINING JURORS. The court may permit the parties or their attorneys to examine prospective jurors or may itself do so. If the court examines the jurors, it must permit the parties or their attorneys to make any further inquiry it considers proper, or must itself ask any of their additional questions it considers proper. (b) PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES. The court must allow the number of peremptory challenges provided by 28 U.S.C. � 1870. (c) EXCUSING A JUROR. During trial or deliberation, the court may excuse a juror for good cause. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 48. Number of Jurors; Verdict; Polling (a) NUMBER OF JURORS. A jury must begin with at least 6 and no more than 12 members, and each juror must participate in the verdict unless excused under Rule 47(c). 71 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 49 (b) VERDICT. Unless the parties stipulate otherwise, the verdict must be unanimous and must be returned by a jury of at least 6 members. (c) POLLING. After a verdict is returned but before the jury is discharged, the court must on a party�s request, or may on its own, poll the jurors individually. If the poll reveals a lack of unanimity or lack of assent by the number of jurors that the parties stipulated to, the court may direct the jury to deliberate further or may order a new trial. (As amended Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 49. Special Verdict; General Verdict and Questions (a) SPECIAL VERDICT. (1) In General. The court may require a jury to return only a special verdict in the form of a special written finding on each issue of fact. The court may do so by: (A) submitting written questions susceptible of a categorical or other brief answer; (B) submitting written forms of the special findings that might properly be made under the pleadings and evidence; or (C) using any other method that the court considers appropriate. (2) Instructions. The court must give the instructions and explanations necessary to enable the jury to make its findings on each submitted issue. (3) Issues Not Submitted. A party waives the right to a jury trial on any issue of fact raised by the pleadings or evidence but not submitted to the jury unless, before the jury retires, the party demands its submission to the jury. If the party does not demand submission, the court may make a finding on the issue. If the court makes no finding, it is considered to have made a finding consistent with its judgment on the special verdict. (b) GENERAL VERDICT WITH ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS. (1) In General. The court may submit to the jury forms for a general verdict, together with written questions on one or more issues of fact that the jury must decide. The court must give the instructions and explanations necessary to enable the jury to render a general verdict and answer the questions in writing, and must direct the jury to do both. (2) Verdict and Answers Consistent. When the general verdict and the answers are consistent, the court must approve, for entry under Rule 58, an appropriate judgment on the verdict and answers. (3) Answers Inconsistent with the Verdict. When the answers are consistent with each other but one or more is inconsistent with the general verdict, the court may: (A) approve, for entry under Rule 58, an appropriate judgment according to the answers, notwithstanding the general verdict; (B) direct the jury to further consider its answers and verdict; or Rule 50 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 72 (C) order a new trial. (4) Answers Inconsistent with Each Other and the Verdict. When the answers are inconsistent with each other and one or more is also inconsistent with the general verdict, judgment must not be entered; instead, the court must direct the jury to further consider its answers and verdict, or must order a new trial. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 50. Judgment as a Matter of Law in a Jury Trial; Related Motion for a New Trial; Conditional Ruling (a) JUDGMENT AS A MATTER OF LAW. (1) In General. If a party has been fully heard on an issue during a jury trial and the court finds that a reasonable jury would not have a legally sufficient evidentiary basis to find for the party on that issue, the court may: (A) resolve the issue against the party; and (B) grant a motion for judgment as a matter of law against the party on a claim or defense that, under the controlling law, can be maintained or defeated only with a favorable finding on that issue. (2) Motion. A motion for judgment as a matter of law may be made at any time before the case is submitted to the jury. The motion must specify the judgment sought and the law and facts that entitle the movant to the judgment. (b) RENEWING THE MOTION AFTER TRIAL; ALTERNATIVE MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL. If the court does not grant a motion for judgment as a matter of law made under Rule 50(a), the court is considered to have submitted the action to the jury subject to the court�s later deciding the legal questions raised by the motion. No later than 28 days after the entry of judgment�or if the motion addresses a jury issue not decided by a verdict, no later than 28 days after the jury was discharged�the movant may file a renewed motion for judgment as a matter of law and may include an alternative or joint request for a new trial under Rule 59. In ruling on the renewed motion, the court may: (1) allow judgment on the verdict, if the jury returned a verdict; (2) order a new trial; or (3) direct the entry of judgment as a matter of law. (c) GRANTING THE RENEWED MOTION; CONDITIONAL RULING ON A MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL. (1) In General. If the court grants a renewed motion for judgment as a matter of law, it must also conditionally rule on any motion for a new trial by determining whether a new trial should be granted if the judgment is later vacated or reversed. The court must state the grounds for conditionally granting or denying the motion for a new trial. (2) Effect of a Conditional Ruling. Conditionally granting the motion for a new trial does not affect the judgment�s finality; if the judgment is reversed, the new trial must proceed unless the appellate court orders otherwise. If the motion for a new trial is conditionally denied, the appellee may assert error in 73 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 51 that denial; if the judgment is reversed, the case must proceed as the appellate court orders. (d) TIME FOR A LOSING PARTY�S NEW-TRIAL MOTION. Any motion for a new trial under Rule 59 by a party against whom judgment as a matter of law is rendered must be filed no later than 28 days after the entry of the judgment. (e) DENYING THE MOTION FOR JUDGMENT AS A MATTER OF LAW; REVERSAL ON APPEAL. If the court denies the motion for judgment as a matter of law, the prevailing party may, as appellee, assert grounds entitling it to a new trial should the appellate court conclude that the trial court erred in denying the motion. If the appellate court reverses the judgment, it may order a new trial, direct the trial court to determine whether a new trial should be granted, or direct the entry of judgment. (As amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 27, 1995, eff. Dec. 1, 1995; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 51. Instructions to the Jury; Objections; Preserving a Claim of Error (a) REQUESTS. (1) Before or at the Close of the Evidence. At the close of the evidence or at any earlier reasonable time that the court orders, a party may file and furnish to every other party written requests for the jury instructions it wants the court to give. (2) After the Close of the Evidence. After the close of the evidence, a party may: (A) file requests for instructions on issues that could not reasonably have been anticipated by an earlier time that the court set for requests; and (B) with the court�s permission, file untimely requests for instructions on any issue. (b) INSTRUCTIONS. The court: (1) must inform the parties of its proposed instructions and proposed action on the requests before instructing the jury and before final jury arguments; (2) must give the parties an opportunity to object on the record and out of the jury�s hearing before the instructions and arguments are delivered; and (3) may instruct the jury at any time before the jury is discharged. (c) OBJECTIONS. (1) How to Make. A party who objects to an instruction or the failure to give an instruction must do so on the record, stating distinctly the matter objected to and the grounds for the objection. (2) When to Make. An objection is timely if: (A) a party objects at the opportunity provided under Rule 51(b)(2); or (B) a party was not informed of an instruction or action on a request before that opportunity to object, and the party objects promptly after learning that the instruction or request will be, or has been, given or refused. Rule 52 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 74 (d) ASSIGNING ERROR; PLAIN ERROR. (1) Assigning Error. A party may assign as error: (A) an error in an instruction actually given, if that party properly objected; or (B) a failure to give an instruction, if that party properly requested it and�unless the court rejected the request in a definitive ruling on the record�also properly objected. (2) Plain Error. A court may consider a plain error in the instructions that has not been preserved as required by Rule 51(d)(1) if the error affects substantial rights. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Mar. 27, 2003, eff. Dec. 1, 2003; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 52. Findings and Conclusions by the Court; Judgment on Partial Findings (a) FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS. (1) In General. In an action tried on the facts without a jury or with an advisory jury, the court must find the facts specially and state its conclusions of law separately. The findings and conclusions may be stated on the record after the close of the evidence or may appear in an opinion or a memorandum of decision filed by the court. Judgment must be entered under Rule 58. (2) For an Interlocutory Injunction. In granting or refusing an interlocutory injunction, the court must similarly state the findings and conclusions that support its action. (3) For a Motion. The court is not required to state findings or conclusions when ruling on a motion under Rule 12 or 56 or, unless these rules provide otherwise, on any other motion. (4) Effect of a Master�s Findings. A master�s findings, to the extent adopted by the court, must be considered the court�s findings. (5) Questioning the Evidentiary Support. A party may later question the sufficiency of the evidence supporting the findings, whether or not the party requested findings, objected to them, moved to amend them, or moved for partial findings. (6) Setting Aside the Findings. Findings of fact, whether based on oral or other evidence, must not be set aside unless clearly erroneous, and the reviewing court must give due regard to the trial court�s opportunity to judge the witnesses� credibility. (b) AMENDED OR ADDITIONAL FINDINGS. On a party�s motion filed no later than 28 days after the entry of judgment, the court may amend its findings�or make additional findings�and may amend the judgment accordingly. The motion may accompany a motion for a new trial under Rule 59. (c) JUDGMENT ON PARTIAL FINDINGS. If a party has been fully heard on an issue during a nonjury trial and the court finds against the party on that issue, the court may enter judgment against the party on a claim or defense that, under the controlling law, can be maintained or defeated only with a favorable finding on that issue. The court may, however, decline to render any judgment until the close of the evidence. A judgment on partial findings must be supported by findings of fact and conclusions of law as required by Rule 52(a). 75 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 53 (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 27, 1995, eff. Dec. 1, 1995; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 53. Masters (a) APPOINTMENT. (1) Scope. Unless a statute provides otherwise, a court may appoint a master only to: (A) perform duties consented to by the parties; (B) hold trial proceedings and make or recommend findings of fact on issues to be decided without a jury if appointment is warranted by: (i) some exceptional condition; or (ii) the need to perform an accounting or resolve a difficult computation of damages; or (C) address pretrial and posttrial matters that cannot be effectively and timely addressed by an available district judge or magistrate judge of the district. (2) Disqualification. A master must not have a relationship to the parties, attorneys, action, or court that would require disqualification of a judge under 28 U.S.C. � 455, unless the parties, with the court�s approval, consent to the appointment after the master discloses any potential grounds for disqualification. (3) Possible Expense or Delay. In appointing a master, the court must consider the fairness of imposing the likely expenses on the parties and must protect against unreasonable expense or delay. (b) ORDER APPOINTING A MASTER. (1) Notice. Before appointing a master, the court must give the parties notice and an opportunity to be heard. Any party may suggest candidates for appointment. (2) Contents. The appointing order must direct the master to proceed with all reasonable diligence and must state: (A) the master�s duties, including any investigation or enforcement duties, and any limits on the master�s authority under Rule 53(c); (B) the circumstances, if any, in which the master may communicate ex parte with the court or a party; (C) the nature of the materials to be preserved and filed as the record of the master�s activities; (D) the time limits, method of filing the record, other procedures, and standards for reviewing the master�s orders, findings, and recommendations; and (E) the basis, terms, and procedure for fixing the master�s compensation under Rule 53(g). (3) Issuing. The court may issue the order only after: (A) the master files an affidavit disclosing whether there is any ground for disqualification under 28 U.S.C. � 455; and (B) if a ground is disclosed, the parties, with the court�s approval, waive the disqualification. (4) Amending. The order may be amended at any time after notice to the parties and an opportunity to be heard. Rule 53 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 76 (c) MASTER�S AUTHORITY. (1) In General. Unless the appointing order directs otherwise, a master may: (A) regulate all proceedings; (B) take all appropriate measures to perform the assigned duties fairly and efficiently; and (C) if conducting an evidentiary hearing, exercise the appointing court�s power to compel, take, and record evidence. (2) Sanctions. The master may by order impose on a party any noncontempt sanction provided by Rule 37 or 45, and may recommend a contempt sanction against a party and sanctions against a nonparty. (d) MASTER�S ORDERS. A master who issues an order must file it and promptly serve a copy on each party. The clerk must enter the order on the docket. (e) MASTER�S REPORTS. A master must report to the court as required by the appointing order. The master must file the report and promptly serve a copy on each party, unless the court orders otherwise. (f) ACTION ON THE MASTER�S ORDER, REPORT, OR RECOMMENDATIONS. (1) Opportunity for a Hearing; Action in General. In acting on a master�s order, report, or recommendations, the court must give the parties notice and an opportunity to be heard; may receive evidence; and may adopt or affirm, modify, wholly or partly reject or reverse, or resubmit to the master with instructions. (2) Time to Object or Move to Adopt or Modify. A party may file objections to�or a motion to adopt or modify�the master�s order, report, or recommendations no later than 21 days after a copy is served, unless the court sets a different time. (3) Reviewing Factual Findings. The court must decide de novo all objections to findings of fact made or recommended by a master, unless the parties, with the court�s approval, stipulate that: (A) the findings will be reviewed for clear error; or (B) the findings of a master appointed under Rule 53(a)(1)(A) or (C) will be final. (4) Reviewing Legal Conclusions. The court must decide de novo all objections to conclusions of law made or recommended by a master. (5) Reviewing Procedural Matters. Unless the appointing order establishes a different standard of review, the court may set aside a master�s ruling on a procedural matter only for an abuse of discretion. (g) COMPENSATION. (1) Fixing Compensation. Before or after judgment, the court must fix the master�s compensation on the basis and terms stated in the appointing order, but the court may set a new basis and terms after giving notice and an opportunity to be heard. (2) Payment. The compensation must be paid either: (A) by a party or parties; or (B) from a fund or subject matter of the action within the court�s control. 77 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 54 (3) Allocating Payment. The court must allocate payment among the parties after considering the nature and amount of the controversy, the parties� means, and the extent to which any party is more responsible than other parties for the reference to a master. An interim allocation may be amended to reflect a decision on the merits. (h) APPOINTING A MAGISTRATE JUDGE. A magistrate judge is subject to this rule only when the order referring a matter to the magistrate judge states that the reference is made under this rule. (As amended Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Mar. 27, 2003, eff. Dec. 1, 2003; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) TITLE VII. JUDGMENT Rule 54. Judgment; Costs (a) DEFINITION; FORM. ��Judgment�� as used in these rules includes a decree and any order from which an appeal lies. A judgment should not include recitals of pleadings, a master�s report, or a record of prior proceedings. (b) JUDGMENT ON MULTIPLE CLAIMS OR INVOLVING MULTIPLE PARTIES. When an action presents more than one claim for relief� whether as a claim, counterclaim, crossclaim, or third-party claim�or when multiple parties are involved, the court may direct entry of a final judgment as to one or more, but fewer than all, claims or parties only if the court expressly determines that there is no just reason for delay. Otherwise, any order or other decision, however designated, that adjudicates fewer than all the claims or the rights and liabilities of fewer than all the parties does not end the action as to any of the claims or parties and may be revised at any time before the entry of a judgment adjudicating all the claims and all the parties� rights and liabilities. (c) DEMAND FOR JUDGMENT; RELIEF TO BE GRANTED. A default judgment must not differ in kind from, or exceed in amount, what is demanded in the pleadings. Every other final judgment should grant the relief to which each party is entitled, even if the party has not demanded that relief in its pleadings. (d) COSTS; ATTORNEY�S FEES. (1) Costs Other Than Attorney�s Fees. Unless a federal statute, these rules, or a court order provides otherwise, costs�other than attorney�s fees�should be allowed to the prevailing party. But costs against the United States, its officers, and its agencies may be imposed only to the extent allowed by law. The clerk may tax costs on 14 days� notice. On motion served within the next 7 days, the court may review the clerk�s action. (2) Attorney�s Fees. (A) Claim to Be by Motion. A claim for attorney�s fees and related nontaxable expenses must be made by motion unless the substantive law requires those fees to be proved at trial as an element of damages. (B) Timing and Contents of the Motion. Unless a statute or a court order provides otherwise, the motion must: Rule 55 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 78 (i) be filed no later than 14 days after the entry of judgment; (ii) specify the judgment and the statute, rule, or other grounds entitling the movant to the award; (iii) state the amount sought or provide a fair estimate of it; and (iv) disclose, if the court so orders, the terms of any agreement about fees for the services for which the claim is made. (C) Proceedings. Subject to Rule 23(h), the court must, on a party�s request, give an opportunity for adversary submissions on the motion in accordance with Rule 43(c) or 78. The court may decide issues of liability for fees before receiving submissions on the value of services. The court must find the facts and state its conclusions of law as provided in Rule 52(a). (D) Special Procedures by Local Rule; Reference to a Master or a Magistrate Judge. By local rule, the court may establish special procedures to resolve fee-related issues without extensive evidentiary hearings. Also, the court may refer issues concerning the value of services to a special master under Rule 53 without regard to the limitations of Rule 53(a)(1), and may refer a motion for attorney�s fees to a magistrate judge under Rule 72(b) as if it were a dispositive pretrial matter. (E) Exceptions. Subparagraphs (A)�(D) do not apply to claims for fees and expenses as sanctions for violating these rules or as sanctions under 28 U.S.C. � 1927. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Apr. 17, 1961, eff. July 19, 1961; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002; Mar. 27, 2003, eff. Dec. 1, 2003; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 55. Default; Default Judgment (a) ENTERING A DEFAULT. When a party against whom a judgment for affirmative relief is sought has failed to plead or otherwise defend, and that failure is shown by affidavit or otherwise, the clerk must enter the party�s default. (b) ENTERING A DEFAULT JUDGMENT. (1) By the Clerk. If the plaintiff�s claim is for a sum certain or a sum that can be made certain by computation, the clerk� on the plaintiff�s request, with an affidavit showing the amount due�must enter judgment for that amount and costs against a defendant who has been defaulted for not appearing and who is neither a minor nor an incompetent person. (2) By the Court. In all other cases, the party must apply to the court for a default judgment. A default judgment may be entered against a minor or incompetent person only if represented by a general guardian, conservator, or other like fiduciary who has appeared. If the party against whom a default judgment is sought has appeared personally or by a representative, that party or its representative must be served with written notice of the application at least 7 days before the hearing. The court may conduct hearings or make referrals� 79 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 56 preserving any federal statutory right to a jury trial�when, to enter or effectuate judgment, it needs to: (A) conduct an accounting; (B) determine the amount of damages; (C) establish the truth of any allegation by evidence; or (D) investigate any other matter. (c) SETTING ASIDE A DEFAULT OR A DEFAULT JUDGMENT. The court may set aside an entry of default for good cause, and it may set aside a final default judgment under Rule 60(b). (d) JUDGMENT AGAINST THE UNITED STATES. A default judgment may be entered against the United States, its officers, or its agencies only if the claimant establishes a claim or right to relief by evidence that satisfies the court. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009; Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015.) Rule 56. Summary Judgment (a) MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT OR PARTIAL SUMMARY JUDGMENT. A party may move for summary judgment, identifying each claim or defense�or the part of each claim or defense�on which summary judgment is sought. The court shall grant summary judgment if the movant shows that there is no genuine dispute as to any material fact and the movant is entitled to judgment as a matter of law. The court should state on the record the reasons for granting or denying the motion. (b) TIME TO FILE A MOTION. Unless a different time is set by local rule or the court orders otherwise, a party may file a motion for summary judgment at any time until 30 days after the close of all discovery. (c) PROCEDURES. (1) Supporting Factual Positions. A party asserting that a fact cannot be or is genuinely disputed must support the assertion by: (A) citing to particular parts of materials in the record, including depositions, documents, electronically stored information, affidavits or declarations, stipulations (including those made for purposes of the motion only), admissions, interrogatory answers, or other materials; or (B) showing that the materials cited do not establish the absence or presence of a genuine dispute, or that an adverse party cannot produce admissible evidence to support the fact. (2) Objection That a Fact Is Not Supported by Admissible Evidence. A party may object that the material cited to support or dispute a fact cannot be presented in a form that would be admissible in evidence. (3) Materials Not Cited. The court need consider only the cited materials, but it may consider other materials in the record. (4) Affidavits or Declarations. An affidavit or declaration used to support or oppose a motion must be made on personal knowledge, set out facts that would be admissible in evidence, and show that the affiant or declarant is competent to testify on the matters stated. Rule 57 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 80 (d) WHEN FACTS ARE UNAVAILABLE TO THE NONMOVANT. If a nonmovant shows by affidavit or declaration that, for specified reasons, it cannot present facts essential to justify its opposition, the court may: (1) defer considering the motion or deny it; (2) allow time to obtain affidavits or declarations or to take discovery; or (3) issue any other appropriate order. (e) FAILING TO PROPERLY SUPPORT OR ADDRESS A FACT. If a party fails to properly support an assertion of fact or fails to properly address another party�s assertion of fact as required by Rule 56(c), the court may: (1) give an opportunity to properly support or address the fact; (2) consider the fact undisputed for purposes of the motion; (3) grant summary judgment if the motion and supporting materials�including the facts considered undisputed�show that the movant is entitled to it; or (4) issue any other appropriate order. (f) JUDGMENT INDEPENDENT OF THE MOTION. After giving notice and a reasonable time to respond, the court may: (1) grant summary judgment for a nonmovant; (2) grant the motion on grounds not raised by a party; or (3) consider summary judgment on its own after identifying for the parties material facts that may not be genuinely in dispute. (g) FAILING TO GRANT ALL THE REQUESTED RELIEF. If the court does not grant all the relief requested by the motion, it may enter an order stating any material fact�including an item of damages or other relief�that is not genuinely in dispute and treating the fact as established in the case. (h) AFFIDAVIT OR DECLARATION SUBMITTED IN BAD FAITH. If satisfied that an affidavit or declaration under this rule is submitted in bad faith or solely for delay, the court�after notice and a reasonable time to respond�may order the submitting party to pay the other party the reasonable expenses, including attorney�s fees, it incurred as a result. An offending party or attorney may also be held in contempt or subjected to other appropriate sanctions. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009; Apr. 28, 2010, eff. Dec. 1, 2010.) Rule 57. Declaratory Judgment These rules govern the procedure for obtaining a declaratory judgment under 28 U.S.C. � 2201. Rules 38 and 39 govern a demand for a jury trial. The existence of another adequate remedy does not preclude a declaratory judgment that is otherwise appropriate. The court may order a speedy hearing of a declaratoryjudgment action. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) 81 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 59 Rule 58. Entering Judgment (a) SEPARATE DOCUMENT. Every judgment and amended judgment must be set out in a separate document, but a separate document is not required for an order disposing of a motion: (1) for judgment under Rule 50(b); (2) to amend or make additional findings under Rule 52(b); (3) for attorney�s fees under Rule 54; (4) for a new trial, or to alter or amend the judgment, under Rule 59; or (5) for relief under Rule 60. (b) ENTERING JUDGMENT. (1) Without the Court�s Direction. Subject to Rule 54(b) and unless the court orders otherwise, the clerk must, without awaiting the court�s direction, promptly prepare, sign, and enter the judgment when: (A) the jury returns a general verdict; (B) the court awards only costs or a sum certain; or (C) the court denies all relief. (2) Court�s Approval Required. Subject to Rule 54(b), the court must promptly approve the form of the judgment, which the clerk must promptly enter, when: (A) the jury returns a special verdict or a general verdict with answers to written questions; or (B) the court grants other relief not described in this subdivision (b). (c) TIME OF ENTRY. For purposes of these rules, judgment is entered at the following times: (1) if a separate document is not required, when the judgment is entered in the civil docket under Rule 79(a); or (2) if a separate document is required, when the judgment is entered in the civil docket under Rule 79(a) and the earlier of these events occurs: (A) it is set out in a separate document; or (B) 150 days have run from the entry in the civil docket. (d) REQUEST FOR ENTRY. A party may request that judgment be set out in a separate document as required by Rule 58(a). (e) COST OR FEE AWARDS. Ordinarily, the entry of judgment may not be delayed, nor the time for appeal extended, in order to tax costs or award fees. But if a timely motion for attorney�s fees is made under Rule 54(d)(2), the court may act before a notice of appeal has been filed and become effective to order that the motion have the same effect under Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 4(a)(4) as a timely motion under Rule 59. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 59. New Trial; Altering or Amending a Judgment (a) IN GENERAL. (1) Grounds for New Trial. The court may, on motion, grant a new trial on all or some of the issues�and to any party�as follows: (A) after a jury trial, for any reason for which a new trial has heretofore been granted in an action at law in federal court; or Rule 60 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 82 (B) after a nonjury trial, for any reason for which a rehearing has heretofore been granted in a suit in equity in federal court. (2) Further Action After a Nonjury Trial. After a nonjury trial, the court may, on motion for a new trial, open the judgment if one has been entered, take additional testimony, amend findings of fact and conclusions of law or make new ones, and direct the entry of a new judgment. (b) TIME TO FILE A MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL. A motion for a new trial must be filed no later than 28 days after the entry of judgment. (c) TIME TO SERVE AFFIDAVITS. When a motion for a new trial is based on affidavits, they must be filed with the motion. The opposing party has 14 days after being served to file opposing affidavits. The court may permit reply affidavits. (d) NEW TRIAL ON THE COURT�S INITIATIVE OR FOR REASONS NOT IN THE MOTION. No later than 28 days after the entry of judgment, the court, on its own, may order a new trial for any reason that would justify granting one on a party�s motion. After giving the parties notice and an opportunity to be heard, the court may grant a timely motion for a new trial for a reason not stated in the motion. In either event, the court must specify the reasons in its order. (e) MOTION TO ALTER OR AMEND A JUDGMENT. A motion to alter or amend a judgment must be filed no later than 28 days after the entry of the judgment. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 27, 1995, eff. Dec. 1, 1995; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 60. Relief from a Judgment or Order (a) CORRECTIONS BASED ON CLERICAL MISTAKES; OVERSIGHTS AND OMISSIONS. The court may correct a clerical mistake or a mistake arising from oversight or omission whenever one is found in a judgment, order, or other part of the record. The court may do so on motion or on its own, with or without notice. But after an appeal has been docketed in the appellate court and while it is pending, such a mistake may be corrected only with the appellate court�s leave. (b) GROUNDS FOR RELIEF FROM A FINAL JUDGMENT, ORDER, OR PROCEEDING. On motion and just terms, the court may relieve a party or its legal representative from a final judgment, order, or proceeding for the following reasons: (1) mistake, inadvertence, surprise, or excusable neglect; (2) newly discovered evidence that, with reasonable diligence, could not have been discovered in time to move for a new trial under Rule 59(b); (3) fraud (whether previously called intrinsic or extrinsic), misrepresentation, or misconduct by an opposing party; (4) the judgment is void; (5) the judgment has been satisfied, released, or discharged; it is based on an earlier judgment that has been reversed or vacated; or applying it prospectively is no longer equitable; or (6) any other reason that justifies relief. 83 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 62 (c) TIMING AND EFFECT OF THE MOTION. (1) Timing. A motion under Rule 60(b) must be made within a reasonable time�and for reasons (1), (2), and (3) no more than a year after the entry of the judgment or order or the date of the proceeding. (2) Effect on Finality. The motion does not affect the judgment�s finality or suspend its operation. (d) OTHER POWERS TO GRANT RELIEF. This rule does not limit a court�s power to: (1) entertain an independent action to relieve a party from a judgment, order, or proceeding; (2) grant relief under 28 U.S.C. � 1655 to a defendant who was not personally notified of the action; or (3) set aside a judgment for fraud on the court. (e) BILLS AND WRITS ABOLISHED. The following are abolished: bills of review, bills in the nature of bills of review, and writs of coram nobis, coram vobis, and audita querela. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 61. Harmless Error Unless justice requires otherwise, no error in admitting or excluding evidence�or any other error by the court or a party�is ground for granting a new trial, for setting aside a verdict, or for vacating, modifying, or otherwise disturbing a judgment or order. At every stage of the proceeding, the court must disregard all errors and defects that do not affect any party�s substantial rights. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 62. Stay of Proceedings to Enforce a Judgment (a) AUTOMATIC STAY; EXCEPTIONS FOR INJUNCTIONS, RECEIVERSHIPS, AND PATENT ACCOUNTINGS. Except as stated in this rule, no execution may issue on a judgment, nor may proceedings be taken to enforce it, until 14 days have passed after its entry. But unless the court orders otherwise, the following are not stayed after being entered, even if an appeal is taken: (1) an interlocutory or final judgment in an action for an injunction or a receivership; or (2) a judgment or order that directs an accounting in an action for patent infringement. (b) STAY PENDING THE DISPOSITION OF A MOTION. On appropriate terms for the opposing party�s security, the court may stay the execution of a judgment�or any proceedings to enforce it�pending disposition of any of the following motions: (1) under Rule 50, for judgment as a matter of law; (2) under Rule 52(b), to amend the findings or for additional findings; (3) under Rule 59, for a new trial or to alter or amend a judgment; or (4) under Rule 60, for relief from a judgment or order. (c) INJUNCTION PENDING AN APPEAL. While an appeal is pending from an interlocutory order or final judgment that grants, dissolves, or denies an injunction, the court may suspend, modify, restore, or grant an injunction on terms for bond or other terms Rule 62.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 84 that secure the opposing party�s rights. If the judgment appealed from is rendered by a statutory three-judge district court, the order must be made either: (1) by that court sitting in open session; or (2) by the assent of all its judges, as evidenced by their signatures. (d) STAY WITH BOND ON APPEAL. If an appeal is taken, the appellant may obtain a stay by supersedeas bond, except in an action described in Rule 62(a)(1) or (2). The bond may be given upon or after filing the notice of appeal or after obtaining the order allowing the appeal. The stay takes effect when the court approves the bond. (e) STAY WITHOUT BOND ON AN APPEAL BY THE UNITED STATES, ITS OFFICERS, OR ITS AGENCIES. The court must not require a bond, obligation, or other security from the appellant when granting a stay on an appeal by the United States, its officers, or its agencies or on an appeal directed by a department of the federal government. (f) STAY IN FAVOR OF A JUDGMENT DEBTOR UNDER STATE LAW. If a judgment is a lien on the judgment debtor�s property under the law of the state where the court is located, the judgment debtor is entitled to the same stay of execution the state court would give. (g) APPELLATE COURT�S POWER NOT LIMITED. This rule does not limit the power of the appellate court or one of its judges or justices: (1) to stay proceedings�or suspend, modify, restore, or grant an injunction�while an appeal is pending; or (2) to issue an order to preserve the status quo or the effectiveness of the judgment to be entered. (h) STAY WITH MULTIPLE CLAIMS OR PARTIES. A court may stay the enforcement of a final judgment entered under Rule 54(b) until it enters a later judgment or judgments, and may prescribe terms necessary to secure the benefit of the stayed judgment for the party in whose favor it was entered. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 17, 1961, eff. July 19, 1961; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 62.1. Indicative Ruling on a Motion for Relief That is Barred by a Pending Appeal (a) RELIEF PENDING APPEAL. If a timely motion is made for relief that the court lacks authority to grant because of an appeal that has been docketed and is pending, the court may: (1) defer considering the motion; (2) deny the motion; or (3) state either that it would grant the motion if the court of appeals remands for that purpose or that the motion raises a substantial issue. (b) NOTICE TO THE COURT OF APPEALS. The movant must promptly notify the circuit clerk under Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 12.1 if the district court states that it would grant the motion or that the motion raises a substantial issue. 85 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 65 (c) REMAND. The district court may decide the motion if the court of appeals remands for that purpose. (As added Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 63. Judge�s Inability to Proceed If a judge conducting a hearing or trial is unable to proceed, any other judge may proceed upon certifying familiarity with the record and determining that the case may be completed without prejudice to the parties. In a hearing or a nonjury trial, the successor judge must, at a party�s request, recall any witness whose testimony is material and disputed and who is available to testify again without undue burden. The successor judge may also recall any other witness. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) TITLE VIII. PROVISIONAL AND FINAL REMEDIES Rule 64. Seizing a Person or Property (a) REMEDIES UNDER STATE LAW�IN GENERAL. At the commencement of and throughout an action, every remedy is available that, under the law of the state where the court is located, provides for seizing a person or property to secure satisfaction of the potential judgment. But a federal statute governs to the extent it applies. (b) SPECIFIC KINDS OF REMEDIES. The remedies available under this rule include the following�however designated and regardless of whether state procedure requires an independent action: � arrest; � attachment; � garnishment; � replevin; � sequestration; and � other corresponding or equivalent remedies. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 65. Injunctions and Restraining Orders (a) PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION. (1) Notice. The court may issue a preliminary injunction only on notice to the adverse party. (2) Consolidating the Hearing with the Trial on the Merits. Before or after beginning the hearing on a motion for a preliminary injunction, the court may advance the trial on the merits and consolidate it with the hearing. Even when consolidation is not ordered, evidence that is received on the motion and that would be admissible at trial becomes part of the trial record and need not be repeated at trial. But the court must preserve any party�s right to a jury trial. (b) TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER. (1) Issuing Without Notice. The court may issue a temporary restraining order without written or oral notice to the adverse party or its attorney only if: (A) specific facts in an affidavit or a verified complaint clearly show that immediate and irreparable injury, loss, Rule 65 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 86 or damage will result to the movant before the adverse party can be heard in opposition; and (B) the movant�s attorney certifies in writing any efforts made to give notice and the reasons why it should not be required. (2) Contents; Expiration. Every temporary restraining order issued without notice must state the date and hour it was issued; describe the injury and state why it is irreparable; state why the order was issued without notice; and be promptly filed in the clerk�s office and entered in the record. The order expires at the time after entry�not to exceed 14 days�that the court sets, unless before that time the court, for good cause, extends it for a like period or the adverse party consents to a longer extension. The reasons for an extension must be entered in the record. (3) Expediting the Preliminary-Injunction Hearing. If the order is issued without notice, the motion for a preliminary injunction must be set for hearing at the earliest possible time, taking precedence over all other matters except hearings on older matters of the same character. At the hearing, the party who obtained the order must proceed with the motion; if the party does not, the court must dissolve the order. (4) Motion to Dissolve. On 2 days� notice to the party who obtained the order without notice�or on shorter notice set by the court�the adverse party may appear and move to dissolve or modify the order. The court must then hear and decide the motion as promptly as justice requires. (c) SECURITY. The court may issue a preliminary injunction or a temporary restraining order only if the movant gives security in an amount that the court considers proper to pay the costs and damages sustained by any party found to have been wrongfully enjoined or restrained. The United States, its officers, and its agencies are not required to give security. (d) CONTENTS AND SCOPE OF EVERY INJUNCTION AND RESTRAINING ORDER. (1) Contents. Every order granting an injunction and every restraining order must: (A) state the reasons why it issued; (B) state its terms specifically; and (C) describe in reasonable detail�and not by referring to the complaint or other document�the act or acts restrained or required. (2) Persons Bound. The order binds only the following who receive actual notice of it by personal service or otherwise: (A) the parties; (B) the parties� officers, agents, servants, employees, and attorneys; and (C) other persons who are in active concert or participation with anyone described in Rule 65(d)(2)(A) or (B). (e) OTHER LAWS NOT MODIFIED. These rules do not modify the following: (1) any federal statute relating to temporary restraining orders or preliminary injunctions in actions affecting employer and employee; (2) 28 U.S.C. � 2361, which relates to preliminary injunctions in actions of interpleader or in the nature of interpleader; or 87 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 68 (3) 28 U.S.C. � 2284, which relates to actions that must be heard and decided by a three-judge district court. (f) COPYRIGHT IMPOUNDMENT. This rule applies to copyright-impoundment proceedings. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 65.1. Proceedings Against a Surety Whenever these rules (including the Supplemental Rules for Admiralty or Maritime Claims and Asset Forfeiture Actions) require or allow a party to give security, and security is given through a bond or other undertaking with one or more sureties, each surety submits to the court�s jurisdiction and irrevocably appoints the court clerk as its agent for receiving service of any papers that affect its liability on the bond or undertaking. The surety�s liability may be enforced on motion without an independent action. The motion and any notice that the court orders may be served on the court clerk, who must promptly mail a copy of each to every surety whose address is known. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 66. Receivers These rules govern an action in which the appointment of a receiver is sought or a receiver sues or is sued. But the practice in administering an estate by a receiver or a similar court-appointed officer must accord with the historical practice in federal courts or with a local rule. An action in which a receiver has been appointed may be dismissed only by court order. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 67. Deposit into Court (a) DEPOSITING PROPERTY. If any part of the relief sought is a money judgment or the disposition of a sum of money or some other deliverable thing, a party�on notice to every other party and by leave of court�may deposit with the court all or part of the money or thing, whether or not that party claims any of it. The depositing party must deliver to the clerk a copy of the order permitting deposit. (b) INVESTING AND WITHDRAWING FUNDS. Money paid into court under this rule must be deposited and withdrawn in accordance with 28 U.S.C. �� 2041 and 2042 and any like statute. The money must be deposited in an interest-bearing account or invested in a court-approved, interest-bearing instrument. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 68. Offer of Judgment (a) MAKING AN OFFER; JUDGMENT ON AN ACCEPTED OFFER. At least 14 days before the date set for trial, a party defending Rule 69 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 88 1 Now editorially reclassified 2 U.S.C. 5503. against a claim may serve on an opposing party an offer to allow judgment on specified terms, with the costs then accrued. If, within 14 days after being served, the opposing party serves written notice accepting the offer, either party may then file the offer and notice of acceptance, plus proof of service. The clerk must then enter judgment. (b) UNACCEPTED OFFER. An unaccepted offer is considered withdrawn, but it does not preclude a later offer. Evidence of an unaccepted offer is not admissible except in a proceeding to determine costs. (c) OFFER AFTER LIABILITY IS DETERMINED. When one party�s liability to another has been determined but the extent of liability remains to be determined by further proceedings, the party held liable may make an offer of judgment. It must be served within a reasonable time�but at least 14 days�before the date set for a hearing to determine the extent of liability. (d) PAYING COSTS AFTER AN UNACCEPTED OFFER. If the judgment that the offeree finally obtains is not more favorable than the unaccepted offer, the offeree must pay the costs incurred after the offer was made. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 69. Execution (a) IN GENERAL. (1) Money Judgment; Applicable Procedure. A money judgment is enforced by a writ of execution, unless the court directs otherwise. The procedure on execution�and in proceedings supplementary to and in aid of judgment or execution�must accord with the procedure of the state where the court is located, but a federal statute governs to the extent it applies. (2) Obtaining Discovery. In aid of the judgment or execution, the judgment creditor or a successor in interest whose interest appears of record may obtain discovery from any person�including the judgment debtor�as provided in these rules or by the procedure of the state where the court is located. (b) AGAINST CERTAIN PUBLIC OFFICERS. When a judgment has been entered against a revenue officer in the circumstances stated in 28 U.S.C. � 2006, or against an officer of Congress in the circumstances stated in 2 U.S.C. � 118,1 the judgment must be satisfied as those statutes provide. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Mar. 30, 1970, eff. July 1, 1970; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 70. Enforcing a Judgment for a Specific Act (a) PARTY�S FAILURE TO ACT; ORDERING ANOTHER TO ACT. If a judgment requires a party to convey land, to deliver a deed or other document, or to perform any other specific act and the party fails to comply within the time specified, the court may order the act to be done�at the disobedient party�s expense�by another person appointed by the court. When done, the act has the same effect as if done by the party. 89 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 71.1 (b) VESTING TITLE. If the real or personal property is within the district, the court�instead of ordering a conveyance�may enter a judgment divesting any party�s title and vesting it in others. That judgment has the effect of a legally executed conveyance. (c) OBTAINING A WRIT OF ATTACHMENT OR SEQUESTRATION. On application by a party entitled to performance of an act, the clerk must issue a writ of attachment or sequestration against the disobedient party�s property to compel obedience. (d) OBTAINING A WRIT OF EXECUTION OR ASSISTANCE. On application by a party who obtains a judgment or order for possession, the clerk must issue a writ of execution or assistance. (e) HOLDING IN CONTEMPT. The court may also hold the disobedient party in contempt. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 71. Enforcing Relief For or Against a Nonparty When an order grants relief for a nonparty or may be enforced against a nonparty, the procedure for enforcing the order is the same as for a party. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) TITLE IX. SPECIAL PROCEEDINGS Rule 71.1. Condemning Real or Personal Property (a) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER RULES. These rules govern proceedings to condemn real and personal property by eminent domain, except as this rule provides otherwise. (b) JOINDER OF PROPERTIES. The plaintiff may join separate pieces of property in a single action, no matter whether they are owned by the same persons or sought for the same use. (c) COMPLAINT. (1) Caption. The complaint must contain a caption as provided in Rule 10(a). The plaintiff must, however, name as defendants both the property�designated generally by kind, quantity, and location�and at least one owner of some part of or interest in the property. (2) Contents. The complaint must contain a short and plain statement of the following: (A) the authority for the taking; (B) the uses for which the property is to be taken; (C) a description sufficient to identify the property; (D) the interests to be acquired; and (E) for each piece of property, a designation of each defendant who has been joined as an owner or owner of an interest in it. (3) Parties. When the action commences, the plaintiff need join as defendants only those persons who have or claim an interest in the property and whose names are then known. But before any hearing on compensation, the plaintiff must add as defendants all those persons who have or claim an interest and whose names have become known or can be found by a reasonably diligent search of the records, considering both the property�s character and value and the interests to be acquired. All Rule 71.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 90 others may be made defendants under the designation ��Unknown Owners.�� (4) Procedure. Notice must be served on all defendants as provided in Rule 71.1(d), whether they were named as defendants when the action commenced or were added later. A defendant may answer as provided in Rule 71.1(e). The court, meanwhile, may order any distribution of a deposit that the facts warrant. (5) Filing; Additional Copies. In addition to filing the complaint, the plaintiff must give the clerk at least one copy for the defendants� use and additional copies at the request of the clerk or a defendant. (d) PROCESS. (1) Delivering Notice to the Clerk. On filing a complaint, the plaintiff must promptly deliver to the clerk joint or several notices directed to the named defendants. When adding defendants, the plaintiff must deliver to the clerk additional notices directed to the new defendants. (2) Contents of the Notice. (A) Main Contents. Each notice must name the court, the title of the action, and the defendant to whom it is directed. It must describe the property sufficiently to identify it, but need not describe any property other than that to be taken from the named defendant. The notice must also state: (i) that the action is to condemn property; (ii) the interest to be taken; (iii) the authority for the taking; (iv) the uses for which the property is to be taken; (v) that the defendant may serve an answer on the plaintiff�s attorney within 21 days after being served with the notice; (vi) that the failure to so serve an answer constitutes consent to the taking and to the court�s authority to proceed with the action and fix the compensation; and (vii) that a defendant who does not serve an answer may file a notice of appearance. (B) Conclusion. The notice must conclude with the name, telephone number, and e-mail address of the plaintiff�s attorney and an address within the district in which the action is brought where the attorney may be served. (3) Serving the Notice. (A) Personal Service. When a defendant whose address is known resides within the United States or a territory subject to the administrative or judicial jurisdiction of the United States, personal service of the notice (without a copy of the complaint) must be made in accordance with Rule 4. (B) Service by Publication. (i) A defendant may be served by publication only when the plaintiff�s attorney files a certificate stating that the attorney believes the defendant cannot be personally served, because after diligent inquiry within the state where the complaint is filed, the defendant�s place of residence is still unknown or, if known, that it is beyond the territorial limits of personal service. 91 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 71.1 Service is then made by publishing the notice�once a week for at least 3 successive weeks�in a newspaper published in the county where the property is located or, if there is no such newspaper, in a newspaper with general circulation where the property is located. Before the last publication, a copy of the notice must also be mailed to every defendant who cannot be personally served but whose place of residence is then known. Unknown owners may be served by publication in the same manner by a notice addressed to ��Unknown Owners.�� (ii) Service by publication is complete on the date of the last publication. The plaintiff�s attorney must prove publication and mailing by a certificate, attach a printed copy of the published notice, and mark on the copy the newspaper�s name and the dates of publication. (4) Effect of Delivery and Service. Delivering the notice to the clerk and serving it have the same effect as serving a summons under Rule 4. (5) Amending the Notice; Proof of Service and Amending the Proof. Rule 4(a)(2) governs amending the notice. Rule 4(l) governs proof of service and amending it. (e) APPEARANCE OR ANSWER. (1) Notice of Appearance. A defendant that has no objection or defense to the taking of its property may serve a notice of appearance designating the property in which it claims an interest. The defendant must then be given notice of all later proceedings affecting the defendant. (2) Answer. A defendant that has an objection or defense to the taking must serve an answer within 21 days after being served with the notice. The answer must: (A) identify the property in which the defendant claims an interest; (B) state the nature and extent of the interest; and (C) state all the defendant�s objections and defenses to the taking. (3) Waiver of Other Objections and Defenses; Evidence on Compensation. A defendant waives all objections and defenses not stated in its answer. No other pleading or motion asserting an additional objection or defense is allowed. But at the trial on compensation, a defendant�whether or not it has previously appeared or answered�may present evidence on the amount of compensation to be paid and may share in the award. (f) AMENDING PLEADINGS. Without leave of court, the plaintiff may�as often as it wants�amend the complaint at any time before the trial on compensation. But no amendment may be made if it would result in a dismissal inconsistent with Rule 71.1(i)(1) or (2). The plaintiff need not serve a copy of an amendment, but must serve notice of the filing, as provided in Rule 5(b), on every affected party who has appeared and, as provided in Rule 71.1(d), on every affected party who has not appeared. In addition, the plaintiff must give the clerk at least one copy of each amendment for the defendants� use, and additional copies at the request of the clerk or a defendant. A defendant may appear or answer in the Rule 71.1 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 92 time and manner and with the same effect as provided in Rule 71.1(e). (g) SUBSTITUTING PARTIES. If a defendant dies, becomes incompetent, or transfers an interest after being joined, the court may, on motion and notice of hearing, order that the proper party be substituted. Service of the motion and notice on a nonparty must be made as provided in Rule 71.1(d)(3). (h) TRIAL OF THE ISSUES. (1) Issues Other Than Compensation; Compensation. In an action involving eminent domain under federal law, the court tries all issues, including compensation, except when compensation must be determined: (A) by any tribunal specially constituted by a federal statute to determine compensation; or (B) if there is no such tribunal, by a jury when a party demands one within the time to answer or within any additional time the court sets, unless the court appoints a commission. (2) Appointing a Commission; Commission�s Powers and Report. (A) Reasons for Appointing. If a party has demanded a jury, the court may instead appoint a three-person commission to determine compensation because of the character, location, or quantity of the property to be condemned or for other just reasons. (B) Alternate Commissioners. The court may appoint up to two additional persons to serve as alternate commissioners to hear the case and replace commissioners who, before a decision is filed, the court finds unable or disqualified to perform their duties. Once the commission renders its final decision, the court must discharge any alternate who has not replaced a commissioner. (C) Examining the Prospective Commissioners. Before making its appointments, the court must advise the parties of the identity and qualifications of each prospective commissioner and alternate, and may permit the parties to examine them. The parties may not suggest appointees, but for good cause may object to a prospective commissioner or alternate. (D) Commission�s Powers and Report. A commission has the powers of a master under Rule 53(c). Its action and report are determined by a majority. Rule 53(d), (e), and (f) apply to its action and report. (i) DISMISSAL OF THE ACTION OR A DEFENDANT. (1) Dismissing the Action. (A) By the Plaintiff. If no compensation hearing on a piece of property has begun, and if the plaintiff has not acquired title or a lesser interest or taken possession, the plaintiff may, without a court order, dismiss the action as to that property by filing a notice of dismissal briefly describing the property. (B) By Stipulation. Before a judgment is entered vesting the plaintiff with title or a lesser interest in or possession of property, the plaintiff and affected defendants may, without a court order, dismiss the action in whole or in part by filing a stipulation of dismissal. And if the parties 93 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 72 so stipulate, the court may vacate a judgment already entered. (C) By Court Order. At any time before compensation has been determined and paid, the court may, after a motion and hearing, dismiss the action as to a piece of property. But if the plaintiff has already taken title, a lesser interest, or possession as to any part of it, the court must award compensation for the title, lesser interest, or possession taken. (2) Dismissing a Defendant. The court may at any time dismiss a defendant who was unnecessarily or improperly joined. (3) Effect. A dismissal is without prejudice unless otherwise stated in the notice, stipulation, or court order. (j) DEPOSIT AND ITS DISTRIBUTION. (1) Deposit. The plaintiff must deposit with the court any money required by law as a condition to the exercise of eminent domain and may make a deposit when allowed by statute. (2) Distribution; Adjusting Distribution. After a deposit, the court and attorneys must expedite the proceedings so as to distribute the deposit and to determine and pay compensation. If the compensation finally awarded to a defendant exceeds the amount distributed to that defendant, the court must enter judgment against the plaintiff for the deficiency. If the compensation awarded to a defendant is less than the amount distributed to that defendant, the court must enter judgment against that defendant for the overpayment. (k) CONDEMNATION UNDER A STATE�S POWER OF EMINENT DOMAIN. This rule governs an action involving eminent domain under state law. But if state law provides for trying an issue by jury�or for trying the issue of compensation by jury or commission or both� that law governs. (l) COSTS. Costs are not subject to Rule 54(d). (As added Apr. 30, 1951, eff. Aug. 1, 1951; amended Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 25, 1988, eff. Aug. 1, 1988; Pub. L. 100�690, title VII, � 7050, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4401; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Mar. 27, 2003, eff. Dec. 1, 2003; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 72. Magistrate Judges: Pretrial Order (a) NONDISPOSITIVE MATTERS. When a pretrial matter not dispositive of a party�s claim or defense is referred to a magistrate judge to hear and decide, the magistrate judge must promptly conduct the required proceedings and, when appropriate, issue a written order stating the decision. A party may serve and file objections to the order within 14 days after being served with a copy. A party may not assign as error a defect in the order not timely objected to. The district judge in the case must consider timely objections and modify or set aside any part of the order that is clearly erroneous or is contrary to law. (b) DISPOSITIVE MOTIONS AND PRISONER PETITIONS. (1) Findings and Recommendations. A magistrate judge must promptly conduct the required proceedings when assigned, Rule 73 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 94 without the parties� consent, to hear a pretrial matter dispositive of a claim or defense or a prisoner petition challenging the conditions of confinement. A record must be made of all evidentiary proceedings and may, at the magistrate judge�s discretion, be made of any other proceedings. The magistrate judge must enter a recommended disposition, including, if appropriate, proposed findings of fact. The clerk must promptly mail a copy to each party. (2) Objections. Within 14 days after being served with a copy of the recommended disposition, a party may serve and file specific written objections to the proposed findings and recommendations. A party may respond to another party�s objections within 14 days after being served with a copy. Unless the district judge orders otherwise, the objecting party must promptly arrange for transcribing the record, or whatever portions of it the parties agree to or the magistrate judge considers sufficient. (3) Resolving Objections. The district judge must determine de novo any part of the magistrate judge�s disposition that has been properly objected to. The district judge may accept, reject, or modify the recommended disposition; receive further evidence; or return the matter to the magistrate judge with instructions. (As added Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; amended Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule 73. Magistrate Judges: Trial by Consent; Appeal (a) TRIAL BY CONSENT. When authorized under 28 U.S.C. � 636(c), a magistrate judge may, if all parties consent, conduct a civil action or proceeding, including a jury or nonjury trial. A record must be made in accordance with 28 U.S.C. � 636(c)(5). (b) CONSENT PROCEDURE. (1) In General. When a magistrate judge has been designated to conduct civil actions or proceedings, the clerk must give the parties written notice of their opportunity to consent under 28 U.S.C. � 636(c). To signify their consent, the parties must jointly or separately file a statement consenting to the referral. A district judge or magistrate judge may be informed of a party�s response to the clerk�s notice only if all parties have consented to the referral. (2) Reminding the Parties About Consenting. A district judge, magistrate judge, or other court official may remind the parties of the magistrate judge�s availability, but must also advise them that they are free to withhold consent without adverse substantive consequences. (3) Vacating a Referral. On its own for good cause�or when a party shows extraordinary circumstances�the district judge may vacate a referral to a magistrate judge under this rule. (c) APPEALING A JUDGMENT. In accordance with 28 U.S.C. � 636(c)(3), an appeal from a judgment entered at a magistrate judge�s direction may be taken to the court of appeals as would any other appeal from a district-court judgment. 95 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 77 (As added Apr. 28, 1983, eff. Aug. 1, 1983; amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 22, 1993, eff. Dec. 1, 1993; Apr. 11, 1997, eff. Dec. 1, 1997; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 74. [Abrogated (Apr. 11, 1997, eff. Dec. 1, 1997).] Rule 75. [Abrogated (Apr. 11, 1997, eff. Dec. 1, 1997).] Rule 76. [Abrogated (Apr. 11, 1997, eff. Dec. 1, 1997).] TITLE X. DISTRICT COURTS AND CLERKS: CONDUCTING BUSINESS; ISSUING ORDERS Rule 77. Conducting Business; Clerk�s Authority; Notice of an Order or Judgment (a) WHEN COURT IS OPEN. Every district court is considered always open for filing any paper, issuing and returning process, making a motion, or entering an order. (b) PLACE FOR TRIAL AND OTHER PROCEEDINGS. Every trial on the merits must be conducted in open court and, so far as convenient, in a regular courtroom. Any other act or proceeding may be done or conducted by a judge in chambers, without the attendance of the clerk or other court official, and anywhere inside or outside the district. But no hearing�other than one ex parte�may be conducted outside the district unless all the affected parties consent. (c) CLERK�S OFFICE HOURS; CLERK�S ORDERS. (1) Hours. The clerk�s office�with a clerk or deputy on duty�must be open during business hours every day except Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays. But a court may, by local rule or order, require that the office be open for specified hours on Saturday or a particular legal holiday other than one listed in Rule 6(a)(6)(A). (2) Orders. Subject to the court�s power to suspend, alter, or rescind the clerk�s action for good cause, the clerk may: (A) issue process; (B) enter a default; (C) enter a default judgment under Rule 55(b)(1); and (D) act on any other matter that does not require the court�s action. (d) SERVING NOTICE OF AN ORDER OR JUDGMENT. (1) Service. Immediately after entering an order or judgment, the clerk must serve notice of the entry, as provided in Rule 5(b), on each party who is not in default for failing to appear. The clerk must record the service on the docket. A party also may serve notice of the entry as provided in Rule 5(b). (2) Time to Appeal Not Affected by Lack of Notice. Lack of notice of the entry does not affect the time for appeal or relieve� or authorize the court to relieve�a party for failing to appeal within the time allowed, except as allowed by Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure (4)(a). (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Dec. 4, 1967, eff. July 1, 1968; Mar. 1, 1971, eff. July 1, 1971; Rule 78 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 96 Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 25, 2014, eff. Dec. 1, 2014.) Rule 78. Hearing Motions; Submission on Briefs (a) PROVIDING A REGULAR SCHEDULE FOR ORAL HEARINGS. A court may establish regular times and places for oral hearings on motions. (b) PROVIDING FOR SUBMISSION ON BRIEFS. By rule or order, the court may provide for submitting and determining motions on briefs, without oral hearings. (As amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 79. Records Kept by the Clerk (a) CIVIL DOCKET. (1) In General. The clerk must keep a record known as the ��civil docket�� in the form and manner prescribed by the Director of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts with the approval of the Judicial Conference of the United States. The clerk must enter each civil action in the docket. Actions must be assigned consecutive file numbers, which must be noted in the docket where the first entry of the action is made. (2) Items to be Entered. The following items must be marked with the file number and entered chronologically in the docket: (A) papers filed with the clerk; (B) process issued, and proofs of service or other returns showing execution; and (C) appearances, orders, verdicts, and judgments. (3) Contents of Entries; Jury Trial Demanded. Each entry must briefly show the nature of the paper filed or writ issued, the substance of each proof of service or other return, and the substance and date of entry of each order and judgment. When a jury trial has been properly demanded or ordered, the clerk must enter the word ��jury�� in the docket. (b) CIVIL JUDGMENTS AND ORDERS. The clerk must keep a copy of every final judgment and appealable order; of every order affecting title to or a lien on real or personal property; and of any other order that the court directs to be kept. The clerk must keep these in the form and manner prescribed by the Director of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts with the approval of the Judicial Conference of the United States. (c) INDEXES; CALENDARS. Under the court�s direction, the clerk must: (1) keep indexes of the docket and of the judgments and orders described in Rule 79(b); and (2) prepare calendars of all actions ready for trial, distinguishing jury trials from nonjury trials. (d) OTHER RECORDS. The clerk must keep any other records required by the Director of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts with the approval of the Judicial Conference of the United States. 97 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 81 (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 80. Stenographic Transcript as Evidence If stenographically reported testimony at a hearing or trial is admissible in evidence at a later trial, the testimony may be proved by a transcript certified by the person who reported it. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) TITLE XI. GENERAL PROVISIONS Rule 81. Applicability of the Rules in General; Removed Actions (a) APPLICABILITY TO PARTICULAR PROCEEDINGS. (1) Prize Proceedings. These rules do not apply to prize proceedings in admiralty governed by 10 U.S.C. �� 7651�7681. (2) Bankruptcy. These rules apply to bankruptcy proceedings to the extent provided by the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure. (3) Citizenship. These rules apply to proceedings for admission to citizenship to the extent that the practice in those proceedings is not specified in federal statutes and has previously conformed to the practice in civil actions. The provisions of 8 U.S.C. � 1451 for service by publication and for answer apply in proceedings to cancel citizenship certificates. (4) Special Writs. These rules apply to proceedings for habeas corpus and for quo warranto to the extent that the practice in those proceedings: (A) is not specified in a federal statute, the Rules Governing Section 2254 Cases, or the Rules Governing Section 2255 Cases; and (B) has previously conformed to the practice in civil actions. (5) Proceedings Involving a Subpoena. These rules apply to proceedings to compel testimony or the production of documents through a subpoena issued by a United States officer or agency under a federal statute, except as otherwise provided by statute, by local rule, or by court order in the proceedings. (6) Other Proceedings. These rules, to the extent applicable, govern proceedings under the following laws, except as these laws provide other procedures: (A) 7 U.S.C. �� 292, 499g(c), for reviewing an order of the Secretary of Agriculture; (B) 9 U.S.C., relating to arbitration; (C) 15 U.S.C. � 522, for reviewing an order of the Secretary of the Interior; (D) 15 U.S.C. � 715d(c), for reviewing an order denying a certificate of clearance; (E) 29 U.S.C. �� 159, 160, for enforcing an order of the National Labor Relations Board; (F) 33 U.S.C. �� 918, 921, for enforcing or reviewing a compensation order under the Longshore and Harbor Workers� Compensation Act; and (G) 45 U.S.C. � 159, for reviewing an arbitration award in a railway-labor dispute. Rule 81 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 98 (b) SCIRE FACIAS AND MANDAMUS. The writs of scire facias and mandamus are abolished. Relief previously available through them may be obtained by appropriate action or motion under these rules. (c) REMOVED ACTIONS. (1) Applicability. These rules apply to a civil action after it is removed from a state court. (2) Further Pleading. After removal, repleading is unnecessary unless the court orders it. A defendant who did not answer before removal must answer or present other defenses or objections under these rules within the longest of these periods: (A) 21 days after receiving�through service or otherwise� a copy of the initial pleading stating the claim for relief; (B) 21 days after being served with the summons for an initial pleading on file at the time of service; or (C) 7 days after the notice of removal is filed. (3) Demand for a Jury Trial. (A) As Affected by State Law. A party who, before removal, expressly demanded a jury trial in accordance with state law need not renew the demand after removal. If the state law did not require an express demand for a jury trial, a party need not make one after removal unless the court orders the parties to do so within a specified time. The court must so order at a party�s request and may so order on its own. A party who fails to make a demand when so ordered waives a jury trial. (B) Under Rule 38. If all necessary pleadings have been served at the time of removal, a party entitled to a jury trial under Rule 38 must be given one if the party serves a demand within 14 days after: (i) it files a notice of removal; or (ii) it is served with a notice of removal filed by another party. (d) LAW APPLICABLE. (1) ��State Law�� Defined. When these rules refer to state law, the term ��law�� includes the state�s statutes and the state�s judicial decisions. (2) ��State�� Defined. The term ��state�� includes, where appropriate, the District of Columbia and any United States commonwealth or territory. (3) ��Federal Statute�� Defined in the District of Columbia. In the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, the term ��federal statute�� includes any Act of Congress that applies locally to the District. (As amended Dec. 28, 1939, eff. Apr. 3, 1941; Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 30, 1951, eff. Aug. 1, 1951; Jan. 21, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Dec. 4, 1967, eff. July 1, 1968; Mar. 1, 1971, eff. July 1, 1971; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) 99 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule 86 Rule 82. Jurisdiction and Venue Unaffected These rules do not extend or limit the jurisdiction of the district courts or the venue of actions in those courts. An admiralty or maritime claim under Rule 9(h) is governed by 28 U.S.C. � 1390. (As amended Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; Apr. 23, 2001, eff. Dec. 1, 2001; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007; Apr. 28, 2016, eff. Dec. 1, 2016.) Rule 83. Rules by District Courts; Judge�s Directives (a) LOCAL RULES. (1) In General. After giving public notice and an opportunity for comment, a district court, acting by a majority of its district judges, may adopt and amend rules governing its practice. A local rule must be consistent with�but not duplicate� federal statutes and rules adopted under 28 U.S.C. �� 2072 and 2075, and must conform to any uniform numbering system prescribed by the Judicial Conference of the United States. A local rule takes effect on the date specified by the district court and remains in effect unless amended by the court or abrogated by the judicial council of the circuit. Copies of rules and amendments must, on their adoption, be furnished to the judicial council and the Administrative Office of the United States Courts and be made available to the public. (2) Requirement of Form. A local rule imposing a requirement of form must not be enforced in a way that causes a party to lose any right because of a nonwillful failure to comply. (b) PROCEDURE WHEN THERE IS NO CONTROLLING LAW. A judge may regulate practice in any manner consistent with federal law, rules adopted under 28 U.S.C. �� 2072 and 2075, and the district�s local rules. No sanction or other disadvantage may be imposed for noncompliance with any requirement not in federal law, federal rules, or the local rules unless the alleged violator has been furnished in the particular case with actual notice of the requirement. (As amended Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Apr. 27, 1995, eff. Dec. 1, 1995; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 84. [Abrogated (Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015).] Rule 85. Title These rules may be cited as the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. (As amended Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) Rule 86. Effective Dates (a) IN GENERAL. These rules and any amendments take effect at the time specified by the Supreme Court, subject to 28 U.S.C. � 2074. They govern: (1) proceedings in an action commenced after their effective date; and (2) proceedings after that date in an action then pending unless: (A) the Supreme Court specifies otherwise; or Rule 86 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 100 (B) the court determines that applying them in a particular action would be infeasible or work an injustice. (b) DECEMBER 1, 2007 AMENDMENTS. If any provision in Rules 1�5.1, 6�73, or 77�86 conflicts with another law, priority in time for the purpose of 28 U.S.C. � 2072(b) is not affected by the amendments taking effect on December 1, 2007. (As amended Dec. 27, 1946, eff. Mar. 19, 1948; Dec. 29, 1948, eff. Oct. 20, 1949; Apr. 17, 1961, eff. July 19, 1961; Jan. 21 and Mar. 18, 1963, eff. July 1, 1963; Apr. 30, 2007, eff. Dec. 1, 2007.) (101) APPENDIX OF FORMS [Abrogated (Apr. 29, 2015, eff. Dec. 1, 2015).] Rule A FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 102 1 Title amended April 12, 2006, effective December 1, 2006. SUPPLEMENTAL RULES FOR ADMIRALTY OR MARITIME CLAIMS AND ASSET FORFEITURE ACTIONS1 Rule A. Scope of Rules (1) These Supplemental Rules apply to: (A) the procedure in admiralty and maritime claims within the meaning of Rule 9(h) with respect to the following remedies: (i) maritime attachment and garnishment, (ii) actions in rem, (iii) possessory, petitory, and partition actions, and (iv) actions for exoneration from or limitation of liability; (B) forfeiture actions in rem arising from a federal statute; and (C) the procedure in statutory condemnation proceedings analogous to maritime actions in rem, whether within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction or not. Except as otherwise provided, references in these Supplemental Rules to actions in rem include such analogous statutory condemnation proceedings. (2) The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure also apply to the foregoing proceedings except to the extent that they are inconsistent with these Supplemental Rules. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006.) Rule B. In Personam Actions: Attachment and Garnishment (1) WHEN AVAILABLE; COMPLAINT, AFFIDAVIT, JUDICIAL AUTHORIZATION, AND PROCESS. In an in personam action: (a) If a defendant is not found within the district when a verified complaint praying for attachment and the affidavit required by Rule B(1)(b) are filed, a verified complaint may contain a prayer for process to attach the defendant�s tangible or intangible personal property�up to the amount sued for� in the hands of garnishees named in the process. (b) The plaintiff or the plaintiff�s attorney must sign and file with the complaint an affidavit stating that, to the affiant�s knowledge, or on information and belief, the defendant cannot be found within the district. The court must review the complaint and affidavit and, if the conditions of this Rule B appear to exist, enter an order so stating and authorizing process of attachment and garnishment. The clerk may issue supplemental process enforcing the court�s order upon application without further court order. (c) If the plaintiff or the plaintiff�s attorney certifies that exigent circumstances make court review impracticable, the clerk must issue the summons and process of attachment and garnishment. The plaintiff has the burden in any post-attachment hearing under Rule E(4)(f) to show that exigent circumstances existed. 103 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule C (d)(i) If the property is a vessel or tangible property on board a vessel, the summons, process, and any supplemental process must be delivered to the marshal for service. (ii) If the property is other tangible or intangible property, the summons, process, and any supplemental process must be delivered to a person or organization authorized to serve it, who may be (A) a marshal; (B) someone under contract with the United States; (C) someone specially appointed by the court for that purpose; or, (D) in an action brought by the United States, any officer or employee of the United States. (e) The plaintiff may invoke state-law remedies under Rule 64 for seizure of person or property for the purpose of securing satisfaction of the judgment. (2) NOTICE TO DEFENDANT. No default judgment may be entered except upon proof�which may be by affidavit�that: (a) the complaint, summons, and process of attachment or garnishment have been served on the defendant in a manner authorized by Rule 4; (b) the plaintiff or the garnishee has mailed to the defendant the complaint, summons, and process of attachment or garnishment, using any form of mail requiring a return receipt; or (c) the plaintiff or the garnishee has tried diligently to give notice of the action to the defendant but could not do so. (3) ANSWER. (a) By Garnishee. The garnishee shall serve an answer, together with answers to any interrogatories served with the complaint, within 21 days after service of process upon the garnishee. Interrogatories to the garnishee may be served with the complaint without leave of court. If the garnishee refuses or neglects to answer on oath as to the debts, credits, or effects of the defendant in the garnishee�s hands, or any interrogatories concerning such debts, credits, and effects that may be propounded by the plaintiff, the court may award compulsory process against the garnishee. If the garnishee admits any debts, credits, or effects, they shall be held in the garnishee�s hands or paid into the registry of the court, and shall be held in either case subject to the further order of the court. (b) By Defendant. The defendant shall serve an answer within 30 days after process has been executed, whether by attachment of property or service on the garnishee. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 25, 2005, eff. Dec. 1, 2005; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule C. In Rem Actions: Special Provisions (1) WHEN AVAILABLE. An action in rem may be brought: (a) To enforce any maritime lien; (b) Whenever a statute of the United States provides for a maritime action in rem or a proceeding analogous thereto. Except as otherwise provided by law a party who may proceed in rem may also, or in the alternative, proceed in personam against any person who may be liable. Statutory provisions exempting vessels or other property owned or possessed by or operated by or for the United States from arrest Rule C FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 104 or seizure are not affected by this rule. When a statute so provides, an action against the United States or an instrumentality thereof may proceed on in rem principles. (2) COMPLAINT. In an action in rem the complaint must: (a) be verified; (b) describe with reasonable particularity the property that is the subject of the action; and (c) state that the property is within the district or will be within the district while the action is pending. (3) JUDICIAL AUTHORIZATION AND PROCESS. (a) Arrest Warrant. (i) The court must review the complaint and any supporting papers. If the conditions for an in rem action appear to exist, the court must issue an order directing the clerk to issue a warrant for the arrest of the vessel or other property that is the subject of the action. (ii) If the plaintiff or the plaintiff�s attorney certifies that exigent circumstances make court review impracticable, the clerk must promptly issue a summons and a warrant for the arrest of the vessel or other property that is the subject of the action. The plaintiff has the burden in any post-arrest hearing under Rule E(4)(f) to show that exigent circumstances existed. (b) Service. (i) If the property that is the subject of the action is a vessel or tangible property on board a vessel, the warrant and any supplemental process must be delivered to the marshal for service. (ii) If the property that is the subject of the action is other property, tangible or intangible, the warrant and any supplemental process must be delivered to a person or organization authorized to enforce it, who may be: (A) a marshal; (B) someone under contract with the United States; (C) someone specially appointed by the court for that purpose; or, (D) in an action brought by the United States, any officer or employee of the United States. (c) Deposit in Court. If the property that is the subject of the action consists in whole or in part of freight, the proceeds of property sold, or other intangible property, the clerk must issue�in addition to the warrant�a summons directing any person controlling the property to show cause why it should not be deposited in court to abide the judgment. (d) Supplemental Process. The clerk may upon application issue supplemental process to enforce the court�s order without further court order. (4) NOTICE. No notice other than execution of process is required when the property that is the subject of the action has been released under Rule E(5). If the property is not released within 14 days after execution, the plaintiff must promptly�or within the time that the court allows�give public notice of the action and arrest in a newspaper designated by court order and having general circulation in the district, but publication may be terminated if the property is released before publication is completed. The notice must specify the time under Rule C(6) to file a statement of interest in or right against the seized property and to answer. 105 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule D This rule does not affect the notice requirements in an action to foreclose a preferred ship mortgage under 46 U.S.C. �� 31301 et seq., as amended. (5) ANCILLARY PROCESS. In any action in rem in which process has been served as provided by this rule, if any part of the property that is the subject of the action has not been brought within the control of the court because it has been removed or sold, or because it is intangible property in the hands of a person who has not been served with process, the court may, on motion, order any person having possession or control of such property or its proceeds to show cause why it should not be delivered into the custody of the marshal or other person or organization having a warrant for the arrest of the property, or paid into court to abide the judgment; and, after hearing, the court may enter such judgment as law and justice may require. (6) RESPONSIVE PLEADING; INTERROGATORIES. (a) Statement of Interest; Answer. In an action in rem: (i) a person who asserts a right of possession or any ownership interest in the property that is the subject of the action must file a verified statement of right or interest: (A) within 14 days after the execution of process, or (B) within the time that the court allows; (ii) the statement of right or interest must describe the interest in the property that supports the person�s demand for its restitution or right to defend the action; (iii) an agent, bailee, or attorney must state the authority to file a statement of right or interest on behalf of another; and (iv) a person who asserts a right of possession or any ownership interest must serve an answer within 21 days after filing the statement of interest or right. (b) Interrogatories. Interrogatories may be served with the complaint in an in rem action without leave of court. Answers to the interrogatories must be served with the answer to the complaint. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002; Apr. 25, 2005, eff. Dec. 1, 2005; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; Apr. 23, 2008, eff. Dec. 1, 2008; Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) Rule D. Possessory, Petitory, and Partition Actions In all actions for possession, partition, and to try title maintainable according to the course of the admiralty practice with respect to a vessel, in all actions so maintainable with respect to the possession of cargo or other maritime property, and in all actions by one or more part owners against the others to obtain security for the return of the vessel from any voyage undertaken without their consent, or by one or more part owners against the others to obtain possession of the vessel for any voyage on giving security for its safe return, the process shall be by a warrant of arrest of the vessel, cargo, or other property, and by notice in the manner provided by Rule B(2) to the adverse party or parties. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966.) Rule E FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 106 Rule E. Actions in Rem and Quasi in Rem: General Provisions (1) APPLICABILITY. Except as otherwise provided, this rule applies to actions in personam with process of maritime attachment and garnishment, actions in rem, and petitory, possessory, and partition actions, supplementing Rules B, C, and D. (2) COMPLAINT; SECURITY. (a) Complaint. In actions to which this rule is applicable the complaint shall state the circumstances from which the claim arises with such particularity that the defendant or claimant will be able, without moving for a more definite statement, to commence an investigation of the facts and to frame a responsive pleading. (b) Security for Costs. Subject to the provisions of Rule 54(d) and of relevant statutes, the court may, on the filing of the complaint or on the appearance of any defendant, claimant, or any other party, or at any later time, require the plaintiff, defendant, claimant, or other party to give security, or additional security, in such sum as the court shall direct to pay all costs and expenses that shall be awarded against the party by any interlocutory order or by the final judgment, or on appeal by any appellate court. (3) PROCESS. (a) In admiralty and maritime proceedings process in rem or of maritime attachment and garnishment may be served only within the district. (b) Issuance and Delivery. Issuance and delivery of process in rem, or of maritime attachment and garnishment, shall be held in abeyance if the plaintiff so requests. (4) EXECUTION OF PROCESS; MARSHAL�S RETURN; CUSTODY OF PROPERTY; PROCEDURES FOR RELEASE. (a) In General. Upon issuance and delivery of the process, or, in the case of summons with process of attachment and garnishment, when it appears that the defendant cannot be found within the district, the marshal or other person or organization having a warrant shall forthwith execute the process in accordance with this subdivision (4), making due and prompt return. (b) Tangible Property. If tangible property is to be attached or arrested, the marshal or other person or organization having the warrant shall take it into the marshal�s possession for safe custody. If the character or situation of the property is such that the taking of actual possession is impracticable, the marshal or other person executing the process shall affix a copy thereof to the property in a conspicuous place and leave a copy of the complaint and process with the person having possession or the person�s agent. In furtherance of the marshal�s custody of any vessel the marshal is authorized to make a written request to the collector of customs not to grant clearance to such vessel until notified by the marshal or deputy marshal or by the clerk that the vessel has been released in accordance with these rules. (c) Intangible Property. If intangible property is to be attached or arrested the marshal or other person or organization having the warrant shall execute the process by leaving with 107 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule E 2 Repealed by Pub. L. 98�89, � 4(b), Aug. 26, 1983, 97 Stat. 600, section 1 of which enacted Title 46, Shipping. the garnishee or other obligor a copy of the complaint and process requiring the garnishee or other obligor to answer as provided in Rules B(3)(a) and C(6); or the marshal may accept for payment into the registry of the court the amount owed to the extent of the amount claimed by the plaintiff with interest and costs, in which event the garnishee or other obligor shall not be required to answer unless alias process shall be served. (d) Directions With Respect to Property in Custody. The marshal or other person or organization having the warrant may at any time apply to the court for directions with respect to property that has been attached or arrested, and shall give notice of such application to any or all of the parties as the court may direct. (e) Expenses of Seizing and Keeping Property; Deposit. These rules do not alter the provisions of Title 28, U.S.C., � 1921, as amended, relative to the expenses of seizing and keeping property attached or arrested and to the requirement of deposits to cover such expenses. (f) Procedure for Release From Arrest or Attachment. Whenever property is arrested or attached, any person claiming an interest in it shall be entitled to a prompt hearing at which the plaintiff shall be required to show why the arrest or attachment should not be vacated or other relief granted consistent with these rules. This subdivision shall have no application to suits for seamen�s wages when process is issued upon a certification of sufficient cause filed pursuant to Title 46, U.S.C. �� 603 and 604 2 or to actions by the United States for forfeitures for violation of any statute of the United States. (5) RELEASE OF PROPERTY. (a) Special Bond. Whenever process of maritime attachment and garnishment or process in rem is issued the execution of such process shall be stayed, or the property released, on the giving of security, to be approved by the court or clerk, or by stipulation of the parties, conditioned to answer the judgment of the court or of any appellate court. The parties may stipulate the amount and nature of such security. In the event of the inability or refusal of the parties so to stipulate the court shall fix the principal sum of the bond or stipulation at an amount sufficient to cover the amount of the plaintiff�s claim fairly stated with accrued interest and costs; but the principal sum shall in no event exceed (i) twice the amount of the plaintiff�s claim or (ii) the value of the property on due appraisement, whichever is smaller. The bond or stipulation shall be conditioned for the payment of the principal sum and interest thereon at 6 per cent per annum. (b) General Bond. The owner of any vessel may file a general bond or stipulation, with sufficient surety, to be approved by the court, conditioned to answer the judgment of such court in all or any actions that may be brought thereafter in such court in which the vessel is attached or arrested. Thereupon the execution of all such process against such vessel shall be Rule E FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 108 stayed so long as the amount secured by such bond or stipulation is at least double the aggregate amount claimed by plaintiffs in all actions begun and pending in which such vessel has been attached or arrested. Judgments and remedies may be had on such bond or stipulation as if a special bond or stipulation had been filed in each of such actions. The district court may make necessary orders to carry this rule into effect, particularly as to the giving of proper notice of any action against or attachment of a vessel for which a general bond has been filed. Such bond or stipulation shall be indorsed by the clerk with a minute of the actions wherein process is so stayed. Further security may be required by the court at any time. If a special bond or stipulation is given in a particular case, the liability on the general bond or stipulation shall cease as to that case. (c) Release by Consent or Stipulation; Order of Court or Clerk; Costs. Any vessel, cargo, or other property in the custody of the marshal or other person or organization having the warrant may be released forthwith upon the marshal�s acceptance and approval of a stipulation, bond, or other security, signed by the party on whose behalf the property is detained or the party�s attorney and expressly authorizing such release, if all costs and charges of the court and its officers shall have first been paid. Otherwise no property in the custody of the marshal, other person or organization having the warrant, or other officer of the court shall be released without an order of the court; but such order may be entered as of course by the clerk, upon the giving of approved security as provided by law and these rules, or upon the dismissal or discontinuance of the action; but the marshal or other person or organization having the warrant shall not deliver any property so released until the costs and charges of the officers of the court shall first have been paid. (d) Possessory, Petitory, and Partition Actions. The foregoing provisions of this subdivision (5) do not apply to petitory, possessory, and partition actions. In such cases the property arrested shall be released only by order of the court, on such terms and conditions and on the giving of such security as the court may require. (6) REDUCTION OR IMPAIRMENT OF SECURITY. Whenever security is taken the court may, on motion and hearing, for good cause shown, reduce the amount of security given; and if the surety shall be or become insufficient, new or additional sureties may be required on motion and hearing. (7) SECURITY ON COUNTERCLAIM. (a) When a person who has given security for damages in the original action asserts a counterclaim that arises from the transaction or occurrence that is the subject of the original action, a plaintiff for whose benefit the security has been given must give security for damages demanded in the counterclaim unless the court, for cause shown, directs otherwise. Proceedings on the original claim must be stayed until this security is given, unless the court directs otherwise. 109 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule F (b) The plaintiff is required to give security under Rule E(7)(a) when the United States or its corporate instrumentality counterclaims and would have been required to give security to respond in damages if a private party but is relieved by law from giving security. (8) RESTRICTED APPEARANCE. An appearance to defend against an admiralty and maritime claim with respect to which there has issued process in rem, or process of attachment and garnishment, may be expressly restricted to the defense of such claim, and in that event is not an appearance for the purposes of any other claim with respect to which such process is not available or has not been served. (9) DISPOSITION OF PROPERTY; SALES. (a) Interlocutory Sales; Delivery. (i) On application of a party, the marshal, or other person having custody of the property, the court may order all or part of the property sold�with the sales proceeds, or as much of them as will satisfy the judgment, paid into court to await further orders of the court�if: (A) the attached or arrested property is perishable, or liable to deterioration, decay, or injury by being detained in custody pending the action; (B) the expense of keeping the property is excessive or disproportionate; or (C) there is an unreasonable delay in securing release of the property. (ii) In the circumstances described in Rule E(9)(a)(i), the court, on motion by a defendant or a person filing a statement of interest or right under Rule C(6), may order that the property, rather than being sold, be delivered to the movant upon giving security under these rules. (b) Sales, Proceeds. All sales of property shall be made by the marshal or a deputy marshal, or by other person or organization having the warrant, or by any other person assigned by the court where the marshal or other person or organization having the warrant is a party in interest; and the proceeds of sale shall be forthwith paid into the registry of the court to be disposed of according to law. (10) PRESERVATION OF PROPERTY. When the owner or another person remains in possession of property attached or arrested under the provisions of Rule E(4)(b) that permit execution of process without taking actual possession, the court, on a party�s motion or on its own, may enter any order necessary to preserve the property and to prevent its removal. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Apr. 29, 1985, eff. Aug. 1, 1985; Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 30, 1991, eff. Dec. 1, 1991; Apr. 17, 2000, eff. Dec. 1, 2000; Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006.) Rule F. Limitation of Liability (1) TIME FOR FILING COMPLAINT; SECURITY. Not later than six months after receipt of a claim in writing, any vessel owner may file a complaint in the appropriate district court, as provided in subdivision (9) of this rule, for limitation of liability pursuant to statute. The owner (a) shall deposit with the court, for the benefit Rule F FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 110 of claimants, a sum equal to the amount or value of the owner�s interest in the vessel and pending freight, or approved security therefor, and in addition such sums, or approved security therefor, as the court may from time to time fix as necessary to carry out the provisions of the statutes as amended; or (b) at the owner�s option shall transfer to a trustee to be appointed by the court, for the benefit of claimants, the owner�s interest in the vessel and pending freight, together with such sums, or approved security therefor, as the court may from time to time fix as necessary to carry out the provisions of the statutes as amended. The plaintiff shall also give security for costs and, if the plaintiff elects to give security, for interest at the rate of 6 percent per annum from the date of the security. (2) COMPLAINT. The complaint shall set forth the facts on the basis of which the right to limit liability is asserted and all facts necessary to enable the court to determine the amount to which the owner�s liability shall be limited. The complaint may demand exoneration from as well as limitation of liability. It shall state the voyage if any, on which the demands sought to be limited arose, with the date and place of its termination; the amount of all demands including all unsatisfied liens or claims of lien, in contract or in tort or otherwise, arising on that voyage, so far as known to the plaintiff, and what actions and proceedings, if any, are pending thereon; whether the vessel was damaged, lost, or abandoned, and, if so, when and where; the value of the vessel at the close of the voyage or, in case of wreck, the value of her wreckage, strippings, or proceeds, if any, and where and in whose possession they are; and the amount of any pending freight recovered or recoverable. If the plaintiff elects to transfer the plaintiff�s interest in the vessel to a trustee, the complaint must further show any prior paramount liens thereon, and what voyages or trips, if any, she has made since the voyage or trip on which the claims sought to be limited arose, and any existing liens arising upon any such subsequent voyage or trip, with the amounts and causes thereof, and the names and addresses of the lienors, so far as known; and whether the vessel sustained any injury upon or by reason of such subsequent voyage or trip. (3) CLAIMS AGAINST OWNER; INJUNCTION. Upon compliance by the owner with the requirements of subdivision (1) of this rule all claims and proceedings against the owner or the owner�s property with respect to the matter in question shall cease. On application of the plaintiff the court shall enjoin the further prosecution of any action or proceeding against the plaintiff or the plaintiff�s property with respect to any claim subject to limitation in the action. (4) NOTICE TO CLAIMANTS. Upon the owner�s compliance with subdivision (1) of this rule the court shall issue a notice to all persons asserting claims with respect to which the complaint seeks limitation, admonishing them to file their respective claims with the clerk of the court and to serve on the attorneys for the plaintiff a copy thereof on or before a date to be named in the notice. The date so fixed shall not be less than 30 days after issuance of the notice. For cause shown, the court may enlarge the time within which claims may be filed. The notice shall be published in such newspaper or newspapers as the court may direct once a week for 111 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule F four successive weeks prior to the date fixed for the filing of claims. The plaintiff not later than the day of second publication shall also mail a copy of the notice to every person known to have made any claim against the vessel or the plaintiff arising out of the voyage or trip on which the claims sought to be limited arose. In cases involving death a copy of such notice shall be mailed to the decedent at the decedent�s last known address, and also to any person who shall be known to have made any claim on account of such death. (5) CLAIMS AND ANSWER. Claims shall be filed and served on or before the date specified in the notice provided for in subdivision (4) of this rule. Each claim shall specify the facts upon which the claimant relies in support of the claim, the items thereof, and the dates on which the same accrued. If a claimant desires to contest either the right to exoneration from or the right to limitation of liability the claimant shall file and serve an answer to the complaint unless the claim has included an answer. (6) INFORMATION TO BE GIVEN CLAIMANTS. Within 30 days after the date specified in the notice for filing claims, or within such time as the court thereafter may allow, the plaintiff shall mail to the attorney for each claimant (or if the claimant has no attorney to the claimant) a list setting forth (a) the name of each claimant, (b) the name and address of the claimant�s attorney (if the claimant is known to have one), (c) the nature of the claim, i.e., whether property loss, property damage, death, personal injury etc., and (d) the amount thereof. (7) INSUFFICIENCY OF FUND OR SECURITY. Any claimant may by motion demand that the funds deposited in court or the security given by the plaintiff be increased on the ground that they are less than the value of the plaintiff�s interest in the vessel and pending freight. Thereupon the court shall cause due appraisement to be made of the value of the plaintiff�s interest in the vessel and pending freight; and if the court finds that the deposit or security is either insufficient or excessive it shall order its increase or reduction. In like manner any claimant may demand that the deposit or security be increased on the ground that it is insufficient to carry out the provisions of the statutes relating to claims in respect of loss of life or bodily injury; and, after notice and hearing, the court may similarly order that the deposit or security be increased or reduced. (8) OBJECTIONS TO CLAIMS: DISTRIBUTION OF FUND. Any interested party may question or controvert any claim without filing an objection thereto. Upon determination of liability the fund deposited or secured, or the proceeds of the vessel and pending freight, shall be divided pro rata, subject to all relevant provisions of law, among the several claimants in proportion to the amounts of their respective claims, duly proved, saving, however, to all parties any priority to which they may be legally entitled. (9) VENUE; TRANSFER. The complaint shall be filed in any district in which the vessel has been attached or arrested to answer for any claim with respect to which the plaintiff seeks to limit liability; or, if the vessel has not been attached or arrested, then in any district in which the owner has been sued with respect to any such claim. When the vessel has not been attached or arrested to answer the matters aforesaid, and suit has not been commenced Rule G FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 112 against the owner, the proceedings may be had in the district in which the vessel may be, but if the vessel is not within any district and no suit has been commenced in any district, then the complaint may be filed in any district. For the convenience of parties and witnesses, in the interest of justice, the court may transfer the action to any district; if venue is wrongly laid the court shall dismiss or, if it be in the interest of justice, transfer the action to any district in which it could have been brought. If the vessel shall have been sold, the proceeds shall represent the vessel for the purposes of these rules. (As added Feb. 28, 1966, eff. July 1, 1966; amended Mar. 2, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987.) Rule G. Forfeiture Actions In Rem (1) SCOPE. This rule governs a forfeiture action in rem arising from a federal statute. To the extent that this rule does not address an issue, Supplemental Rules C and E and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure also apply. (2) COMPLAINT. The complaint must: (a) be verified; (b) state the grounds for subject-matter jurisdiction, in rem jurisdiction over the defendant property, and venue; (c) describe the property with reasonable particularity; (d) if the property is tangible, state its location when any seizure occurred and�if different�its location when the action is filed; (e) identify the statute under which the forfeiture action is brought; and (f) state sufficiently detailed facts to support a reasonable belief that the government will be able to meet its burden of proof at trial. (3) JUDICIAL AUTHORIZATION AND PROCESS. (a) Real Property. If the defendant is real property, the government must proceed under 18 U.S.C. � 985. (b) Other Property; Arrest Warrant. If the defendant is not real property: (i) the clerk must issue a warrant to arrest the property if it is in the government�s possession, custody, or control; (ii) the court�on finding probable cause�must issue a warrant to arrest the property if it is not in the government�s possession, custody, or control and is not subject to a judicial restraining order; and (iii) a warrant is not necessary if the property is subject to a judicial restraining order. (c) Execution of Process. (i) The warrant and any supplemental process must be delivered to a person or organization authorized to execute it, who may be: (A) a marshal or any other United States officer or employee; (B) someone under contact with the United States; or (C) someone specially appointed by the court for that purpose. (ii) The authorized person or organization must execute the warrant and any supplemental process on property in the United States as soon as practicable unless: 113 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule G (A) the property is in the government�s possession, custody, or control; or (B) the court orders a different time when the complaint is under seal, the action is stayed before the warrant and supplemental process are executed, or the court finds other good cause. (iii) The warrant and any supplemental process may be executed within the district or, when authorized by statute, outside the district. (iv) If executing a warrant on property outside the United States is required, the warrant may be transmitted to an appropriate authority for serving process where the property is located. (4) NOTICE. (a) Notice by Publication. (i) When Publication Is Required. A judgment of forfeiture may be entered only if the government has published notice of the action within a reasonable time after filing the complaint or at a time the court orders. But notice need not be published if: (A) the defendant property is worth less than $1,000 and direct notice is sent under Rule G(4)(b) to every person the government can reasonably identify as a potential claimant; or (B) the court finds that the cost of publication exceeds the property�s value and that other means of notice would satisfy due process. (ii) Content of the Notice. Unless the court orders otherwise, the notice must: (A) describe the property with reasonable particularity; (B) state the times under Rule G(5) to file a claim and to answer; and (C) name the government attorney to be served with the claim and answer. (iii) Frequency of Publication. Published notice must appear: (A) once a week for three consecutive weeks; or (B) only once if, before the action was filed, notice of nonjudicial forfeiture of the same property was published on an official internet government forfeiture site for at least 30 consecutive days, or in a newspaper of general circulation for three consecutive weeks in a district where publication is authorized under Rule G(4)(a)(iv). (iv) Means of Publication. The government should select from the following options a means of publication reasonably calculated to notify potential claimants of the action: (A) if the property is in the United States, publication in a newspaper generally circulated in the district where the action is filed, where the property was seized, or where property that was not seized is located; Rule G FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 114 (B) if the property is outside the United States, publication in a newspaper generally circulated in a district where the action is filed, in a newspaper generally circulated in the country where the property is located, or in legal notices published and generally circulated in the country where the property is located; or (C) instead of (A) or (B), posting a notice on an official internet government forfeiture site for at least 30 consecutive days. (b) Notice to Known Potential Claimants. (i) Direct Notice Required. The government must send notice of the action and a copy of the complaint to any person who reasonably appears to be a potential claimant on the facts known to the government before the end of the time for filing a claim under Rule G(5)(a)(ii)(B). (ii) Content of the Notice. The notice must state: (A) the date when the notice is sent; (B) a deadline for filing a claim, at least 35 days after the notice is sent; (C) that an answer or a motion under Rule 12 must be filed no later than 21 days after filing the claim; and (D) the name of the government attorney to be served with the claim and answer. (iii) Sending Notice. (A) The notice must be sent by means reasonably calculated to reach the potential claimant. (B) Notice may be sent to the potential claimant or to the attorney representing the potential claimant with respect to the seizure of the property or in a related investigation, administrative forfeiture proceeding, or criminal case. (C) Notice sent to a potential claimant who is incarcerated must be sent to the place of incarceration. (D) Notice to a person arrested in connection with an offense giving rise to the forfeiture who is not incarcerated when notice is sent may be sent to the address that person last gave to the agency that arrested or released the person. (E) Notice to a person from whom the property was seized who is not incarcerated when notice is sent may be sent to the last address that person gave to the agency that seized the property. (iv) When Notice Is Sent. Notice by the following means is sent on the date when it is placed in the mail, delivered to a commercial carrier, or sent by electronic mail. (v) Actual Notice. A potential claimant who had actual notice of a forfeiture action may not oppose or seek relief from forfeiture because of the government�s failure to send the required notice. (5) RESPONSIVE PLEADINGS. (a) Filing a Claim. (i) A person who asserts an interest in the defendant property may contest the forfeiture by filing a claim in the court where the action is pending. The claim must: 115 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule G (A) identify the specific property claimed; (B) identify the claimant and state the claimant�s interest in the property; (C) be signed by the claimant under penalty of perjury; and (D) be served on the government attorney designated under Rule G(4)(a)(ii)(C) or (b)(ii)(D). (ii) Unless the court for good cause sets a different time, the claim must be filed: (A) by the time stated in a direct notice sent under Rule G(4)(b); (B) if notice was published but direct notice was not sent to the claimant or the claimant�s attorney, no later than 30 days after final publication of newspaper notice or legal notice under Rule G(4)(a) or no later than 60 days after the first day of publication on an official internet government forfeiture site; or (C) if notice was not published and direct notice was not sent to the claimant or the claimant�s attorney: (1) if the property was in the government�s possession, custody, or control when the complaint was filed, no later than 60 days after the filing, not counting any time when the complaint was under seal or when the action was stayed before execution of a warrant issued under Rule G(3)(b); or (2) if the property was not in the government�s possession, custody, or control when the complaint was filed, no later than 60 days after the government complied with 18 U.S.C. � 985(c) as to real property, or 60 days after process was executed on the property under Rule G(3). (iii) A claim filed by a person asserting an interest as a bailee must identify the bailor, and if filed on the bailor�s behalf must state the authority to do so. (b) Answer. A claimant must serve and file an answer to the complaint or a motion under Rule 12 within 21 days after filing the claim. A claimant waives an objection to in rem jurisdiction or to venue if the objection is not made by motion or stated in the answer. (6) SPECIAL INTERROGATORIES. (a) Time and Scope. The government may serve special interrogatories limited to the claimant�s identity and relationship to the defendant property without the court�s leave at any time after the claim is filed and before discovery is closed. But if the claimant serves a motion to dismiss the action, the government must serve the interrogatories within 21 days after the motion is served. (b) Answers or Objections. Answers or objections to these interrogatories must be served within 21 days after the interrogatories are served. (c) Government�s Response Deferred. The government need not respond to a claimant�s motion to dismiss the action under Rule G(8)(b) until 21 days after the claimant has answered these interrogatories. Rule G FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 116 (7) PRESERVING, PREVENTING CRIMINAL USE, AND DISPOSING OF PROPERTY; SALES. (a) Preserving and Preventing Criminal Use of Property. When the government does not have actual possession of the defendant property the court, on motion or on its own, may enter any order necessary to preserve the property, to prevent its removal or encumbrance, or to prevent its use in a criminal offense. (b) Interlocutory Sale or Delivery. (i) Order to Sell. On motion by a party or a person having custody of the property, the court may order all or part of the property sold if: (A) the property is perishable or at risk of deterioration, decay, or injury by being detained in custody pending the action; (B) the expense of keeping the property is excessive or is disproportionate to its fair market value; (C) the property is subject to a mortgage or to taxes on which the owner is in default; or (D) the court finds other good cause. (ii) Who Makes the Sale. A sale must be made by a United States agency that has authority to sell the property, by the agency�s contractor, or by any person the court designates. (iii) Sale Procedures. The sale is governed by 28 U.S.C. �� 2001, 2002, and 2004, unless all parties, with the court�s approval, agree to the sale, aspects of the sale, or different procedures. (iv) Sale Proceeds. Sale proceeds are a substitute res subject to forfeiture in place of the property that was sold. The proceeds must be held in an interest-bearing account maintained by the United States pending the conclusion of the forfeiture action. (v) Delivery on a Claimant�s Motion. The court may order that the property be delivered to the claimant pending the conclusion of the action if the claimant shows circumstances that would permit sale under Rule G(7)(b)(i) and gives security under these rules. (c) Disposing of Forfeited Property. Upon entry of a forfeiture judgment, the property or proceeds from selling the property must be disposed of as provided by law. (8) MOTIONS. (a) Motion To Suppress Use of the Property as Evidence. If the defendant property was seized, a party with standing to contest the lawfulness of the seizure may move to suppress use of the property as evidence. Suppression does not affect forfeiture of the property based on independently derived evidence. (b) Motion To Dismiss the Action. (i) A claimant who establishes standing to contest forfeiture may move to dismiss the action under Rule 12(b). (ii) In an action governed by 18 U.S.C. � 983(a)(3)(D) the complaint may not be dismissed on the ground that the government did not have adequate evidence at the time the complaint was filed to establish the forfeitability of the property. The sufficiency of the complaint is governed by Rule G(2). 117 FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE Rule G (c) Motion To Strike a Claim or Answer. (i) At any time before trial, the government may move to strike a claim or answer: (A) for failing to comply with Rule G(5) or (6), or (B) because the claimant lacks standing. (ii) The motion: (A) must be decided before any motion by the claimant to dismiss the action; and (B) may be presented as a motion for judgment on the pleadings or as a motion to determine after a hearing or by summary judgment whether the claimant can carry the burden of establishing standing by a preponderance of the evidence. (d) Petition To Release Property. (i) If a United States agency or an agency�s contractor holds property for judicial or nonjudicial forfeiture under a statute governed by 18 U.S.C. � 983(f), a person who has filed a claim to the property may petition for its release under � 983(f). (ii) If a petition for release is filed before a judicial forfeiture action is filed against the property, the petition may be filed either in the district where the property was seized or in the district where a warrant to seize the property issued. If a judicial forfeiture action against the property is later filed in another district�or if the government shows that the action will be filed in another district�the petition may be transferred to that district under 28 U.S.C. � 1404. (e) Excessive Fines. A claimant may seek to mitigate a forfeiture under the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment by motion for summary judgment or by motion made after entry of a forfeiture judgment if: (i) the claimant has pleaded the defense under Rule 8; and (ii) the parties have had the opportunity to conduct civil discovery on the defense. (9) TRIAL. Trial is to the court unless any party demands trial by jury under Rule 38. (As added Apr. 12, 2006, eff. Dec. 1, 2006; amended Mar. 26, 2009, eff. Dec. 1, 2009.) From howardadelsberg at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 15:55:17 2019 From: howardadelsberg at gmail.com (Howard Adelsberg) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 11:55:17 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> What is booksharr? > On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw wrote: > > Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. > I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. > > I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. > (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. > > Some might be better formatted than this, however. > > Sincerely, > Seif > >> On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> All, >> >> Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is >> extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's >> website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy >> already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu >> > > > -- > Seif Saqallah > University of Michigan > Juris Doctor/ > Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies > J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 > > International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; > Law, Justice, and Social Change > B.A | 2017 > > 248-325-7091 > seifs at umich.edu > > Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic > University of Michigan Law School > 3120 Jeffries Hall > 701 South State Street > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 > www.law.umich.edu/ITC > > The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is > confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not > the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, > please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this > communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including > attachments, if any). > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg%40gmail.com From NSingh at cov.com Mon Sep 23 16:01:25 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:01:25 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> References: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06b83bbe3c434fe088b6a5611d583277@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> Digital subscription service that holds a sizable collection of books in a Braile format. I believe there is a range of academic titles in addition to the kind of fiction and nonfiction found in a regular book store/library. I am not a member, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 11:55 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Howard Adelsberg Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure [EXTERNAL] What is booksharr? > On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw wrote: > > Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. > I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. > > I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. > (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. > > Some might be better formatted than this, however. > > Sincerely, > Seif > >> On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> All, >> >> Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is >> extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's >> website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy >> already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.e >> du >> > > > -- > Seif Saqallah > University of Michigan > Juris Doctor/ > Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate > | 2021 > > International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, > Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 > > 248-325-7091 > seifs at umich.edu > > Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of > Michigan Law School > 3120 Jeffries Hall > 701 South State Street > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 > www.law.umich.edu/ITC > > The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is > confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not > the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, > please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this > communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including > attachments, if any). > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From sanho817 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 16:01:36 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 11:01:36 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> References: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bookshare is an online library for people with print disabilities. bookshare.org Warmth, Sanho On 9/23/19, Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw wrote: > What is booksharr? > >> On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. >> I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. >> >> I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. >> (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. >> >> Some might be better formatted than this, however. >> >> Sincerely, >> Seif >> >>> On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> All, >>> >>> Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is >>> extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's >>> website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy >>> already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu >>> >> >> >> -- >> Seif Saqallah >> University of Michigan >> Juris Doctor/ >> Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies >> J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 >> >> International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; >> Law, Justice, and Social Change >> B.A | 2017 >> >> 248-325-7091 >> seifs at umich.edu >> >> Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic >> University of Michigan Law School >> 3120 Jeffries Hall >> 701 South State Street >> Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 >> www.law.umich.edu/ITC >> >> The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is >> confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not >> the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, >> please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this >> communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including >> attachments, if any). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From howardadelsberg at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 16:08:05 2019 From: howardadelsberg at gmail.com (Howard Adelsberg) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:08:05 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you > On Sep 23, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > > Bookshare is an online library for people with print disabilities. bookshare.org > > Warmth, > Sanho > >> On 9/23/19, Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw wrote: >> What is booksharr? >> >>> On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. >>> I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. >>> >>> I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. >>> (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. >>> >>> Some might be better formatted than this, however. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Seif >>> >>>> On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is >>>> extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's >>>> website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy >>>> already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Seif Saqallah >>> University of Michigan >>> Juris Doctor/ >>> Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies >>> J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 >>> >>> International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; >>> Law, Justice, and Social Change >>> B.A | 2017 >>> >>> 248-325-7091 >>> seifs at umich.edu >>> >>> Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic >>> University of Michigan Law School >>> 3120 Jeffries Hall >>> 701 South State Street >>> Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 >>> www.law.umich.edu/ITC >>> >>> The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is >>> confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not >>> the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, >>> please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this >>> communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including >>> attachments, if any). >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg%40gmail.com From amatney at loeb.com Mon Sep 23 16:17:16 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:17:16 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure In-Reply-To: <06b83bbe3c434fe088b6a5611d583277@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> References: <8D4A026D-BB4B-4F9F-B0FD-A9275F1A0AB1@gmail.com> <06b83bbe3c434fe088b6a5611d583277@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CD984@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Books can be downloaded in Daisy format (which includes a file that you can open in a web browser) and I believe in mp3 format as well (generated with synthetic speech). They have a sizeable number of titles that they receive directly from publishers, so a lot of the material is very high-quality. Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 12:01 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Singh, Nandini Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Digital subscription service that holds a sizable collection of books in a Braile format. I believe there is a range of academic titles in addition to the kind of fiction and nonfiction found in a regular book store/library. I am not a member, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Howard Adelsberg via BlindLaw Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 11:55 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Howard Adelsberg > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Federal Rules of Civil Procedure [EXTERNAL] What is booksharr? > On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw > wrote: > > Try bookshare; I think that is where I found one of mine. > I would send it to you, but the terms frown on such conduct. > > I attached one that I used (2016), but in txt; controlF for Rule#. > (Ex: rule 12.) and it should take you to that rule. > > Some might be better formatted than this, however. > > Sincerely, > Seif > >> On 9/23/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: >> All, >> >> Good morning. The copy of the Federal Rules that the DRC sent me is >> extremely poorly formatted, but the version available on the Court's >> website isn't much better. Does anyone have a fully-accessible copy >> already? If not, I'll mark one up and post it here. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.e >> du >> > > > -- > Seif Saqallah > University of Michigan > Juris Doctor/ > Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate > | 2021 > > International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, > Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 > > 248-325-7091 > seifs at umich.edu > > Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of > Michigan Law School > 3120 Jeffries Hall > 701 South State Street > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 > www.law.umich.edu/ITC > > The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is > confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not > the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, > please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this > communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including > attachments, if any). > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howardadelsberg% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From sai at fiatfiendum.org Tue Sep 24 07:56:30 2019 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:56:30 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: OTI is hiring a Senior Policy Counsel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI. Good luck if you apply. Sincerely, Sai Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect errors. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Sharon Bradford Franklin Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 22:41 Subject: [surveillance-coalition] OTI is hiring a Senior Policy Counsel To: Surveillance-Coalition All, Following our change in leadership and a bit of organizational restructuring at New America's Open Technology Institute, we have adjusted our hiring needs and have just posted a new position for a Senior Policy Counsel. The position description is available here: https://newamerica.applytojob.com/apply/FkyvpjdIA9/Senior-Policy-Counsel We would appreciate your assistance in circulating this announcement to your colleagues and networks, and in particular, your assistance in helping us improve our diversity in hiring outreach. Apologies for cross-postings. Thank you -- With Best Regards, Sharon Sharon Bradford Franklin Policy Director New America's Open Technology Institute 740 15th Street NW, Suite 900 Washington, DC 20005 202-847-4789 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "National Security Surveillance Coalition" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to surveillance-coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/surveillance-coalition/CAAFDzRJy3PwePoYsiZZ%2BaFtxJZFBp5Fc29iJBcyKOE37tMyi8w%40mail.gmail.com . From derekjdittmar at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 11:44:56 2019 From: derekjdittmar at gmail.com (Derek Dittmar) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 07:44:56 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Great news and a research question on libraries and book access Message-ID: All, First things first. I am delighted to share that I passed the North Carolina Bar, and am being sworn in on October 3. Thank you all for your advice, guidance, and inspiration. Even if you didn't realize it, you made me feel less alone; your example pushed me to get the job done, and I am so thankful. Now for my question. Does anyone have experience with getting accessible texts from libraries? I know about Bookshare, and I know that, if I get in touch with the right person at a publisher's business, I can get a PDF of a book when showing proof of purchase. But I'm curious about how this relates to libraries. For example, I want to access the treatis on North Carolina Constitutional Law (if I'm going to swear an oath, I need a better understanding of the Constitution I am swearing to defend). I could buy the book and send the proof to the publishers, but (1) it is well over $250 and (2) I know for a fact that my law library (open to alums and bar members) has a copy. While the library has done an amazing job of accessing different databases (it even bought a Bookshare membership), this book isn't available in any of those avenues. We're working on trying to get a copy from the authors, but it raised the question: what is a public library required (or able) to do to get its physical books accessible for blind patrons? To be clear, our library staff are AMAZING. This is less of a "how do I make them help me" and more of a "what tools do they have to go to the publishers?" Thanks again. Warmly yours, Derek Dittmar From sanho817 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 14:43:26 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 09:43:26 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination Message-ID: All, Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. Warmth, Sanho From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 15:42:13 2019 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:42:13 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. > On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > > All, > > Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so > far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 16:37:10 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 12:37:10 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: > Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> All, >> >> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 16:44:28 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 12:44:28 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> Message-ID: James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. > > > > >> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> >>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From m13grey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 17:12:51 2019 From: m13grey at yahoo.com (Meredith Ballard) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:12:51 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> James, I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. Sincerely, Meredith Ballard > On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >> >> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >> >> >> >> >>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 17:52:59 2019 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:52:59 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: James’ point is spot on. What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . > On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: > > James, > > I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. > > I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. > > Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. > > Sincerely, > > Meredith Ballard > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>> >>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 18:06:48 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:06:48 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c4a081e-127f-7f24-2feb-1cf78b727bb4@yahoo.com> Externships are designed to be, and thus seen as, learning experiences. You'd never depend on an extern's work, if you were seriously under the gun and needed to meet a filing deadline. You certainly wouldn't let an extern take a deposition, prep a deponent, etc. Re: free labor, no attorney would turn that down, again as long as not a lot was riding on its quality or timely delivery. The default assumption sighted people face is that they're competent, or at least have the potential to become competent, until proven otherwise. The default assumption we face is the exact opposite--that we are both incompetent and unable by nature to become competent, until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no way around it: the amount of discrimination we face in hiring is both staggering and extremely frustrating. If not for my current position, which served as a springboard to the clerkship I will start next summer, I don't know what I would do. Now, after that uplifting sermon, any ideas for solutions? On 9/24/2019 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: > James’ point is spot on. > > What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? > > I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James, >> >> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >> >> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >> >> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Meredith Ballard >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>> >>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:09:11 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:09:11 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field of practice. Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch. Thanks so much everyone for your insight. Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: > > James’ point is spot on. > > What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? > > I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James, >> >> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >> >> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >> >> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Meredith Ballard >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>> >>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:18:25 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:18:25 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an interview. Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential discrimination. But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again, it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view as well as in substance. And I don't think we do this or focus on this nearly enough. I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy for how good the employee will b. I'm also not terribly surprised when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work. Compile excerpts of record. Read handwritten filings. Cite check. Proofread and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time a partner mistypes something. Yes, we can clearly do all of these things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control. But the point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school grades. And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out ways to anticipate and address it. Because if a hiring partner doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether unreasonable to opt not to hire that person. Our job is to show them through example and education that those beliefs are false. I firmly believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing the hiring. Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list, but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know. I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop. How to bluebook (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook." You might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you and fixing your mistakes. This happens, trust me. Other agenda items might include "Common formatting errors ." Do you 1. Know the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same changes? 4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them? I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but many, many people do not. I believe so sincerely, after talking to everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring us. I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken, without these skills. End rant, and back to work I go. Laura On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: > James, > > I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen > as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was > asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical > book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped > me with all my schooling. > > I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when > they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first > out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other > attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier > to make connections. > > Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would > be before entering the profession. > > Sincerely, > > Meredith Ballard > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look >>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an >>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and >>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many >>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still >>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school >>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious >>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, >>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have >>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as >>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are >>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out >>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still >>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for >>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time >>> position. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I >>>> was first licensed. >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From m13grey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 18:18:36 2019 From: m13grey at yahoo.com (Meredith Ballard) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:18:36 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <719C6EDB-9072-417D-ADC3-B9A388CC1F83@yahoo.com> Maura, I think a legal career can still be rewarding. It depends on what you are looking for out of it. I can say that after starting my own firm I feel excited to work every day and I love working with my clients. There are other careers that are easier, but that is true whether you are blind or not. How well you develop your career can depend on a lot of factors besides vision, such as your school, practice area, connections, local job market, past work history—its impossible to say that blind attorneys all have the same outcome. I think the issue with hiring blind attorneys for internships vs. a paid job can be explained in terms of risk. If you’re an unpaid intern the employer hasn’t lost anything by hiring you, but if you are a paid employee they stand to loose a lot if things don’t work out. It shows that employers see blind job candidates as more risky than sighted ones. But that same bias is probably present in other fields for blind employees, so I don’t know if the legal industry is unusual in that respect. If you really want to be an attorney I don’t think you should let this discourage you. I’m happy with my choice. I would suggest meeting as many lawyers as you can before going to law school to ask them questions about their work. Sincerely, Meredith Ballard > On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. > > That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. > > Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. > > I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field of practice. > > Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch. > > Thanks so much everyone for your insight. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > wrote: >> >> James’ point is spot on. >> >> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >> >> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw > wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>> >>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>> >>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Meredith Ballard >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 > >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:20:55 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:20:55 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <9c4a081e-127f-7f24-2feb-1cf78b727bb4@yahoo.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <9c4a081e-127f-7f24-2feb-1cf78b727bb4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes. Sadly, these types of experiences are ones where the employer may expect to actually lose efficiency as the result of supervising the inexperienced worker. This is, in fact, one of the factors that the Department of Labor considers when it has to decide whether someone in a particular position has been correctly classified as an intern vs an employee. Here is one anecdote from my own summer job search as a 1l, way back in 2006. I split the 2007 summer between two positions. At one of them, someone told me off the record that while I was "far and away" the top candidate, I almost wasn't offered the job. The reasoning was that the firm had just moved to new offices a few months before, and many people were not sure the firm was ready for another major undertaking so soon. Yes, hiring me was equated to relocating the main office of an entire firm, upwards of 100 people. Fortunately for me, wiser heads prevailed. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:06 PM, James T. Fetter via > > wrote: > > Externships are designed to be, and thus seen as, learning experiences. You'd never depend on an extern's work, if you were seriously under the gun and needed to meet a filing deadline. You certainly wouldn't let an extern take a deposition, prep a deponent, etc. Re: free labor, no attorney would turn that down, again as long as not a lot was riding on its quality or timely delivery. > > The default assumption sighted people face is that they're competent, or at least have the potential to become competent, until proven otherwise. The default assumption we face is the exact opposite--that we are both incompetent and unable by nature to become competent, until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. > > There is no way around it: the amount of discrimination we face in hiring is both staggering and extremely frustrating. If not for my current position, which served as a springboard to the clerkship I will start next summer, I don't know what I would do. > > Now, after that uplifting sermon, any ideas for solutions? > > >> On 9/24/2019 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> James’ point is spot on. >> >> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >> >> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>> >>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>> >>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Meredith Ballard >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 18:25:26 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81486a7c-3c9d-e7f4-f8a9-1f0d2563f680@yahoo.com> Because success is still possible, despite the headwinds. We do land jobs, up to and including Supreme Court clerkships and positions with very high salaries in the private sector. There are employers--far too few but some--who will actually give us a chance. And because it will be all the easier for employers to shirk their responsibilities by lamenting the lack of qualified candidates with disabilities rather than addressing their own ableism, if we never show up. Also because it's 2019, and it's long past time for us to insist on our ability to reach the pinnacle of whatever profession we choose. On 9/24/2019 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. > > That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. > > Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. > > I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field of practice. > > Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch. > > Thanks so much everyone for your insight. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James’ point is spot on. >> >> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >> >> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>> >>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>> >>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Meredith Ballard >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Tue Sep 24 18:27:43 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:27:43 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020b01d57305$c1a1ba10$44e52e30$@sbgaal.com> I have my own firm and my assistant goes back and makes sure formatting is correct, but I would like to do it myself. I am curious what is Time? behind driver’s side correct? Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:18 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an interview. Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential discrimination. But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again, it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view as well as in substance. And I don't think we do this or focus on this nearly enough. I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy for how good the employee will b. I'm also not terribly surprised when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work. Compile excerpts of record. Read handwritten filings. Cite check. Proofread and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time a partner mistypes something. Yes, we can clearly do all of these things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control. But the point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school grades. And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out ways to anticipate and address it. Because if a hiring partner doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether unreasonable to opt not to hire that person. Our job is to show them through example and education that those beliefs are false. I firmly believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing the hiring. Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list, but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know. I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop. How to bluebook (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook." You might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you and fixing your mistakes. This happens, trust me. Other agenda items might include "Common formatting errors ." Do you 1. Know the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same changes? 4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them? I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but many, many people do not. I believe so sincerely, after talking to everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring us. I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken, without these skills. End rant, and back to work I go. Laura On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: > James, > > I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen > as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was > asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical > book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped > me with all my schooling. > > I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when > they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first > out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other > attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier > to make connections. > > Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would > be before entering the profession. > > Sincerely, > > Meredith Ballard > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look >>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an >>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and >>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many >>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still >>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school >>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious >>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, >>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have >>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as >>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are >>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out >>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still >>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for >>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time >>> position. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I >>>> was first licensed. >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:29:52 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:29:52 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03D781EC-9B8F-43AA-9561-05655A26DEF3@gmail.com> Lots of really great points here. The importance of producing a visually acceptable document cannot be overstated. Having said this, I asked for, and received at two firms, the accommodation of having my assistant or our Word Processing department "proofread" my work to help me catch errors I may have missed. Still, I had to have the knowledge that the document needed additional processing before it went to the partner or client or whoever. I also don't take this as a license not to bother with trying to be consistent in formatting and spacing. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an > interview. Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list > to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential > discrimination. > > But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again, > it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be > able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view > as well as in substance. And I don't think we do this or focus on > this nearly enough. I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal > formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not > surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy > for how good the employee will b. I'm also not terribly surprised > when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school > exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate > is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work. Compile > excerpts of record. Read handwritten filings. Cite check. Proofread > and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time > a partner mistypes something. Yes, we can clearly do all of these > things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control. But the > point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than > writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and > those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school > grades. And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out > ways to anticipate and address it. Because if a hiring partner > doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things > that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether > unreasonable to opt not to hire that person. Our job is to show them > through example and education that those beliefs are false. I firmly > believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle > depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing > the hiring. Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list, > but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've > had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know. > > I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop. How to bluebook > (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook." You > might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at > all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you > and fixing your mistakes. This happens, trust me. Other agenda items > might include "Common formatting errors ." Do you 1. Know the > difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how > to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's > uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as > justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in > footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same > changes? 4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and > widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them? > I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but > many, many people do not. I believe so sincerely, after talking to > everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to > lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make > others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring > us. I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken, > without these skills. > > End rant, and back to work I go. > > Laura > > >> On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >> James, >> >> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen >> as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was >> asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical >> book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped >> me with all my schooling. >> >> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when >> they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first >> out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other >> attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier >> to make connections. >> >> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would >> be before entering the profession. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Meredith Ballard >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look >>>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an >>>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and >>>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many >>>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still >>>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school >>>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious >>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, >>>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have >>>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as >>>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are >>>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out >>>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still >>>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for >>>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time >>>> position. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I >>>>> was first licensed. >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From maurakutnyak at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:46:56 2019 From: maurakutnyak at gmail.com (Maura Kutnyak) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:46:56 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <81486a7c-3c9d-e7f4-f8a9-1f0d2563f680@yahoo.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <81486a7c-3c9d-e7f4-f8a9-1f0d2563f680@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40713C1A-33B4-408F-A485-FEB4565BC6BE@gmail.com> James, thank you, those reasons appear valid whether or not they will influence the bearing of any given blind attorneys career track. Plus, it just helps to have some good mixed in with the bad; A piece of the email chain to which one can cling Sincerely, Maura Kutnyak 716-563-9882 > On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:25 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > > Because success is still possible, despite the headwinds. We do land jobs, up to and including Supreme Court clerkships and positions with very high salaries in the private sector. There are employers--far too few but some--who will actually give us a chance. And because it will be all the easier for employers to shirk their responsibilities by lamenting the lack of qualified candidates with disabilities rather than addressing their own ableism, if we never show up. > > Also because it's 2019, and it's long past time for us to insist on our ability to reach the pinnacle of whatever profession we choose. >> On 9/24/2019 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >> >> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >> >> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >> >> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field of practice. >> >> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch. >> >> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James’ point is spot on. >>> >>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>> >>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>> >>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>> >>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Meredith Ballard >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:47:54 2019 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:47:54 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to go to law school. I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment discrimination. I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee > On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: > > Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. > > That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. > > Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. > > I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field of practice. > > Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to perfect this dispatch. > > Thanks so much everyone for your insight. > > Sincerely, > > Maura Kutnyak > 716-563-9882 > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> James’ point is spot on. >> >> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >> >> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>> >>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>> >>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Meredith Ballard >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> >>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Tue Sep 24 19:12:14 2019 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:12:14 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007001d5730b$f9a23790$ece6a6b0$@com> Discrimination? Verily, verily I say unto you, there shall be CONTINUED DISCRIMINATION even as I lay in my casket getting dumped off in my grave! Nonetheless, I keep on pushing just like the pioneers before me did. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From sanho817 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 19:14:46 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:14:46 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Laura and all, Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more from your perspective. Warmth, Sanho On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: > I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following > graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next > Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to find > work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter > at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James > have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking > to go to law school. > > I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law > school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I looked > for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit > more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who > practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, > misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment > discrimination. > > I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the > reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their > sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created a > Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination against > persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide > education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities > in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of > employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the > local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog > post linked below. > > https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for people >> like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past >> Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >> >> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >> >> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such >> as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA >> and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided to >> be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course >> irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >> >> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not particularly >> drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want to >> be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be >> limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and >> perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how that >> may be the most excepting field of practice. >> >> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am >> following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to >> perfect this dispatch. >> >> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Maura Kutnyak >> 716-563-9882 >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> James’ point is spot on. >>> >>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the >>> experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and >>> internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the >>> candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law >>> school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the >>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my >>> abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of >>> success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>> >>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no >>> issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not >>> being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or >>> community involvement opportunities. . >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >>>> seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a >>>> license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I >>>> can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that >>>> someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>> >>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >>>> when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I >>>> was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for >>>> yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work >>>> with and it is easier to make connections. >>>> >>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >>>> would be before entering the profession. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Meredith Ballard >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much >>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and >>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's >>>>>> right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is >>>>>> still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law >>>>>> school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling >>>>>> contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, >>>>>> of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You >>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand >>>>>> that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I >>>>>> will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know >>>>>> if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or >>>>>> compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared >>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so >>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge >>>>>> to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought >>>>>>> when I was first licensed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 19:36:26 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 15:36:26 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to >> find >> work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too >> bitter >> at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and >> James >> have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in >> looking >> to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law >> school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I >> looked >> for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit >> more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who >> practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, >> misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment >> discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the >> reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their >> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created >> a >> Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination >> against >> persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to >> provide >> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >> disabilities >> in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of >> employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the >> local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people >>> like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past >>> Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such >>> as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA >>> and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided >>> to >>> be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course >>> irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly >>> drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want >>> to >>> be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be >>> limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and >>> perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how >>> that >>> may be the most excepting field of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am >>> following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to >>> perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the >>>> experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and >>>> internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the >>>> candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law >>>> school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the >>>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my >>>> abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of >>>> success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no >>>> issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not >>>> being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or >>>> community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >>>>> seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a >>>>> license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I >>>>> can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that >>>>> someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >>>>> when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I >>>>> was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for >>>>> yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work >>>>> with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >>>>> would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much >>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's >>>>>>> right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is >>>>>>> still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law >>>>>>> school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling >>>>>>> contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, >>>>>>> of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand >>>>>>> that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I >>>>>>> will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know >>>>>>> if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or >>>>>>> compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared >>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so >>>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>> bridge >>>>>>> to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought >>>>>>>> when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 20:17:55 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:17:55 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF430@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura et al, I have an example of this related to quotes. After I had been practicing law for a few years, a casual comment from my assistant led me to learn that I was sending her documents that inconsistently switched between smart quotes and straight quotes. I learned that Word was automatically creating smart quotes, but I sometimes tended to draft sections in Notepad and then paste them into the document, and the quotes in these sections were straight quotes. My assistant had been quietly fixing this in all my documents for years. You can tell if you are using straight quotes vs smart quotes by having your screen reader announce the ASCII value of the quotation mark. JAWS will call a straight quote “character 34,” and it will call smart quotes “character 8220” (left quote) and “character 8221” (right quote). There might be ways to do this with sound schemes in JAWS—maybe Laura or someone else can speak to this. But in many cases, JAWS does not differentiate between these two types of quotation marks, so it’s very easy to use the wrong ones and not be aware. Angie ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 3:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to >> find >> work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too >> bitter >> at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and >> James >> have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in >> looking >> to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law >> school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I >> looked >> for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit >> more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who >> practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, >> misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment >> discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the >> reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their >> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created >> a >> Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination >> against >> persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to >> provide >> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >> disabilities >> in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of >> employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the >> local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people >>> like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past >>> Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such >>> as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA >>> and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided >>> to >>> be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course >>> irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly >>> drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want >>> to >>> be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be >>> limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and >>> perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how >>> that >>> may be the most excepting field of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am >>> following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to >>> perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the >>>> experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and >>>> internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the >>>> candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law >>>> school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the >>>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my >>>> abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of >>>> success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no >>>> issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not >>>> being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or >>>> community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >>>>> seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a >>>>> license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I >>>>> can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that >>>>> someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >>>>> when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I >>>>> was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for >>>>> yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work >>>>> with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >>>>> would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much >>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's >>>>>>> right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is >>>>>>> still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law >>>>>>> school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling >>>>>>> contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, >>>>>>> of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand >>>>>>> that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I >>>>>>> will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know >>>>>>> if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or >>>>>>> compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared >>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so >>>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>> bridge >>>>>>> to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought >>>>>>>> when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>>>> > >>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Tue Sep 24 20:18:07 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 15:18:07 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to >> find >> work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too >> bitter >> at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and >> James >> have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in >> looking >> to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law >> school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I >> looked >> for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit >> more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who >> practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, >> misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment >> discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the >> reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their >> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created >> a >> Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination >> against >> persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to >> provide >> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >> disabilities >> in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of >> employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the >> local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people >>> like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past >>> Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such >>> as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA >>> and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided >>> to >>> be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course >>> irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly >>> drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want >>> to >>> be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be >>> limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and >>> perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how >>> that >>> may be the most excepting field of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am >>> following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to >>> perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the >>>> experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and >>>> internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the >>>> candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law >>>> school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the >>>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my >>>> abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of >>>> success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no >>>> issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not >>>> being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or >>>> community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >>>>> seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a >>>>> license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I >>>>> can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that >>>>> someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >>>>> when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I >>>>> was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for >>>>> yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work >>>>> with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >>>>> would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much >>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's >>>>>>> right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is >>>>>>> still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law >>>>>>> school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling >>>>>>> contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, >>>>>>> of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand >>>>>>> that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I >>>>>>> will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know >>>>>>> if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or >>>>>>> compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared >>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so >>>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>> bridge >>>>>>> to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought >>>>>>>> when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Tue Sep 24 20:26:03 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 15:26:03 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF430@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF430@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <527750F8-3A79-4E57-A390-5218D85752A1@sbgaal.com> How did they look differently? Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Phone: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from your system. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 3:17 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > Laura et al, > > I have an example of this related to quotes. After I had been practicing law for a few years, a casual comment from my assistant led me to learn that I was sending her documents that inconsistently switched between smart quotes and straight quotes. I learned that Word was automatically creating smart quotes, but I sometimes tended to draft sections in Notepad and then paste them into the document, and the quotes in these sections were straight quotes. My assistant had been quietly fixing this in all my documents for years. > > You can tell if you are using straight quotes vs smart quotes by having your screen reader announce the ASCII value of the quotation mark. JAWS will call a straight quote “character 34,” and it will call smart quotes “character 8220” (left quote) and “character 8221” (right quote). There might be ways to do this with sound schemes in JAWS—maybe Laura or someone else can speak to this. But in many cases, JAWS does not differentiate between these two types of quotation marks, so it’s very easy to use the wrong ones and not be aware. > > Angie > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 3:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite > understand what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Tue Sep 24 20:39:30 2019 From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:39:30 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Shannon Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >> that leads to employment discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >> ee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>> supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>> of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 20:54:12 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:54:12 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this email. Can you tell the difference? Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Shannon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >> that leads to employment discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >> ee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>> supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>> of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From sanho817 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 20:54:30 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 15:54:30 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: This is helpful; I haven't even heard of a smart quote versus a straight quote, and I'm pathologically obsessed with grammar. Warmth, Sanho On 9/24/19, Ray Wayne via BlindLaw wrote: > I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > Ray Wayne, New York City > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Shannon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Sorry Laura, > > Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was > regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart > quote/apostrophe? > I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > Thanks! > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand > what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we > have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind > attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms > or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It > happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person > continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and > the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as > the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had > conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind > specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said > "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to > figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. > A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his > emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to > say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to > do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. > This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft > skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to > tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something > that makes your documents look strange." > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura and all, >> >> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >> from your perspective. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>> >>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>> post linked below. >>> >>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>> ee >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>> >>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>> >>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>> supports that fear. >>>> >>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>> of practice. >>>> >>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>> >>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>> >>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>> practice? >>>>> >>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From sanho817 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 21:01:24 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:01:24 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world do we learn these things while we're still in school? Sanho On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. > > Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest > point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation > mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. > > Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they > are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with > its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the > enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the > left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. > > I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening > and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to > represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see > that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight > quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. > > “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” > > "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." > > I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this > email. > > Can you tell the difference? > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > [Loeb & Loeb LLP] > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | > E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files > or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential > information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to > this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this > transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy > the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in > any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > Ray Wayne, New York City > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw > > On Behalf > Of Shannon via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > > > Cc: Shannon > > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Sorry Laura, > > Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding > knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? > I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > Thanks! > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand > what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we > have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind > attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms > or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It > happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person > continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and > the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as > the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had > conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind > specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said > "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to > figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A > friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his > emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say > anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. > Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This > is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills > help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a > blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that > makes your documents look strange." > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > > wrote: >> Laura and all, >> >> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >> from your perspective. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>> >>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>> post linked below. >>> >>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>> >>> ee >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>> >>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>> >>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>> supports that fear. >>>> >>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>> of practice. >>>> >>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>> >>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>> >>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>> practice? >>>>> >>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>> schooling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > yahoo.com> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>> >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > From cjdavis9193 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 21:14:01 2019 From: cjdavis9193 at gmail.com (Cody Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:14:01 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <4E692D9D-01EB-4BA9-8F9C-C1937428480E@gmail.com> Does anyone know if JAWS has a command to announce text attributes like in voiceover? Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > > Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > do we learn these things while we're still in school? > > Sanho > >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >> >> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest >> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation >> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >> >> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they >> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with >> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the >> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >> >> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to >> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see >> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >> >> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this >> email. >> >> Can you tell the difference? >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw >> > On Behalf >> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> > >> Cc: Shannon > >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Sorry Laura, >> >> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding >> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> Thanks! >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >> what you are trying to ask. >> >> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we >> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms >> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It >> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and >> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A >> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say >> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. >> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This >> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >> makes your documents look strange." >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> Laura and all, >>> >>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>> from your perspective. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>> >>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>> >>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>> post linked below. >>>> >>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>> >>>> ee >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>> supports that fear. >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>> of practice. >>>>> >>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> yahoo.com> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>> >>>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 21:14:50 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:14:50 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted people that it might never get discussed verbally. I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, really not!) That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes the other. Best, Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world do we learn these things while we're still in school? Sanho On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > wrote: > I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. > > Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest > point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation > mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. > > Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they > are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with > its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the > enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the > left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. > > I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening > and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to > represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see > that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight > quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. > > “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” > > "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." > > I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this > email. > > Can you tell the difference? > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > [Loeb & Loeb LLP] > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | > E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> > > > ><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files > or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential > information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to > this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this > transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy > the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in > any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > > Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > Ray Wayne, New York City > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw > >> On Behalf > Of Shannon via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> > Cc: Shannon >> > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Sorry Laura, > > Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding > knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? > I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > Thanks! > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com> > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand > what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we > have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind > attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms > or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It > happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person > continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and > the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as > the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had > conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind > specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said > "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to > figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A > friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his > emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say > anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. > Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This > is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills > help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a > blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that > makes your documents look strange." > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > >> wrote: >> Laura and all, >> >> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >> from your perspective. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >> >> wrote: >>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>> >>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>> post linked below. >>> >>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>> >>> ee >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>> >>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>> >>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>> supports that fear. >>>> >>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>> of practice. >>>> >>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>> >>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>> >>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>> practice? >>>>> >>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>> schooling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> ><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> ><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>> >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 21:16:23 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:16:23 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works for you. And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > do we learn these things while we're still in school? > > Sanho > > On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >> >> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest >> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >> quotation >> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >> >> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >> they >> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >> with >> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >> the >> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >> >> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to >> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >> see >> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >> >> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >> this >> email. >> >> Can you tell the difference? >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw >> > On >> Behalf >> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> > >> Cc: Shannon > >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Sorry Laura, >> >> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >> regarding >> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> Thanks! >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >> Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >> what you are trying to ask. >> >> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that >> we >> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms >> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >> It >> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >> and >> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. >> A >> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >> say >> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. >> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >> This >> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >> makes your documents look strange." >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> Laura and all, >>> >>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>> from your perspective. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>> >>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>> >>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>> post linked below. >>>> >>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>> >>>> ee >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>> supports that fear. >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>> of practice. >>>>> >>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> yahoo.com> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>> >>>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 21:21:30 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:21:30 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the "substance," because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In fact, it wasn't. Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with drafting something for a client. This is why I really think this is in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to need to put in to make her work look presentable? And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to tell. And they see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix this... No harm, no foul. My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on for highlighting. I never really thought about highlighting. But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date. So although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow. My assistant was just changing everything. After I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future. Laura On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk wrote: > Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, > except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing > happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value > 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, > Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when > drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from > Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. > > I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize > the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with > the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. > This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so > tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works > for you. > > And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, > too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before > submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret > before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>> quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest >>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>> quotation >>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>> they >>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>> the >>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>> opening >>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>> to >>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>> see >>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>> straight >>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>> this >>> email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files >>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>> to >>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>> destroy >>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>> in >>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> > On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> > >>> Cc: Shannon > >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding >>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>> Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>> understand >>> what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>> that >>> we >>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>> firms >>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>> and >>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>> as >>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>> feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>> say >>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>> do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>> a >>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>> that >>> makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>> from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>> post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>> of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>> >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > From NSingh at cov.com Tue Sep 24 21:26:06 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:26:06 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <6c1646c06ec8460a95d5e33c437001c7@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> As far as I know, literary Braille does not have straight quotes. Straight quotes are an artifact from the days of typewriter use (based on a quick Google search). It was easier to have one key for a straight quote rather than having two for both left and right smart quotes. Modern software-based word processing applications dispense for the need to conserve keys. In Microsoft Word, typing a quote and a word sans space turns that quote into a left or opening quote; typing a quote and then a space turns that quote into a right or closing quote. If for some reason you wanted to type a straight quote in Word, perform a control-Z after typing a quote, which undoes the conversion from straight to smart typography. You can also copy and paste from a Note Pad file, as Angela did. To have JAWS inform you what ASCII value a given character has, position the cursor on the character, and then perform a triple num pad-5. A double num pad-5 will give you the NATO phonetic value, which is more relevant to letters than to punctuation. I like the NATO phonetic alphabet, for instance, to differentiate between "d" and "t." -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Angela Matney via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:54 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Angela Matney Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination [EXTERNAL] I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this email. Can you tell the difference? Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Shannon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >> that leads to employment discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> ee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>> supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>> of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>>>>>>get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>>>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>> >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>>>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> ahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>>>25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>>25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To >unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >%3cBR%3e%3e> il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 21:26:41 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:26:41 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully familiar—with the apostrophe situation.) ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works for you. And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > do we learn these things while we're still in school? > > Sanho > > On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >> >> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest >> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >> quotation >> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >> >> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >> they >> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >> with >> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >> the >> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >> >> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to >> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >> see >> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >> >> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >> this >> email. >> >> Can you tell the difference? >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >> >> >> >><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw >> >> On >> Behalf >> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> >> Cc: Shannon >> >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Sorry Laura, >> >> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >> regarding >> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> Thanks! >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >> Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >> what you are trying to ask. >> >> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that >> we >> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms >> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >> It >> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >> and >> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. >> A >> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >> say >> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. >> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >> This >> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >> makes your documents look strange." >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> >> wrote: >>> Laura and all, >>> >>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>> from your perspective. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> >> wrote: >>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>> >>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>> >>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>> post linked below. >>>> >>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>> >>>> ee >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>> supports that fear. >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>> of practice. >>>>> >>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>> >>>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 21:33:53 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:33:53 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF6B7@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Actually, judging you on the substance might indeed have been equitable; sadly, the legal profession is notoriously less equitable than academia. Whichever way you come down on this issue ideologically, we can agree that blind people need the tools to know about and correct (or arrange for the correction of) these issues. ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:22 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the "substance," because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In fact, it wasn't. Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with drafting something for a client. This is why I really think this is in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to need to put in to make her work look presentable? And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to tell. And they see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix this... No harm, no foul. My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on for highlighting. I never really thought about highlighting. But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date. So although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow. My assistant was just changing everything. After I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future. Laura On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk > wrote: > Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, > except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing > happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value > 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, > Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when > drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from > Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. > > I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize > the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with > the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. > This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so > tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works > for you. > > And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, > too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before > submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret > before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>> quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest >>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>> quotation >>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>> they >>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>> the >>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>> opening >>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>> to >>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>> see >>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>> straight >>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>> this >>> email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files >>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>> to >>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>> destroy >>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>> in >>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> >> On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >> >>> Cc: Shannon >> >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding >>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com> >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>> Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>> understand >>> what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>> that >>> we >>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>> firms >>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>> and >>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>> as >>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>> feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>> say >>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>> do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>> a >>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>> that >>> makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> >> wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>> from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> >> wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>> post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>> of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>><%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>><%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>> >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From sanho817 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 21:37:04 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:37:04 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Nikki, How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. Sanho On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully familiar—with > the apostrophe situation.) > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files > or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential > information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to > this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this > transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy > the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in > any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, > except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing > happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value > 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, > Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when > drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from > Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. > > I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize > the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with > the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. > This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so > tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works > for you. > > And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, > too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before > submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret > before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > > wrote: >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>> quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest >>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>> quotation >>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>> they >>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>> the >>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>> opening >>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>> to >>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>> see >>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>> straight >>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>> this >>> email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>> www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files >>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>> to >>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>> destroy >>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>> in >>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw >>> > On >>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> > >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> >> >>> On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >> >>> Cc: Shannon >>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding >>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: >>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>> Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>> understand >>> what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>> that >>> we >>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>> firms >>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>> and >>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>> as >>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>> feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>> say >>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>> do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>> a >>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>> that >>> makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> >> >>> wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>> from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>> post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>> of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> >>>> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw > mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 20:17:55 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:17:55 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF430@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura et al, I have an example of this related to quotes. After I had been practicing law for a few years, a casual comment from my assistant led me to learn that I was sending her documents that inconsistently switched between smart quotes and straight quotes. I learned that Word was automatically creating smart quotes, but I sometimes tended to draft sections in Notepad and then paste them into the document, and the quotes in these sections were straight quotes. My assistant had been quietly fixing this in all my documents for years. You can tell if you are using straight quotes vs smart quotes by having your screen reader announce the ASCII value of the quotation mark. JAWS will call a straight quote “character 34,” and it will call smart quotes “character 8220” (left quote) and “character 8221” (right quote). There might be ways to do this with sound schemes in JAWS—maybe Laura or someone else can speak to this. But in many cases, JAWS does not differentiate between these two types of quotation marks, so it’s very easy to use the wrong ones and not be aware. Angie ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 3:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months to >> find >> work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too >> bitter >> at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and >> James >> have done an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in >> looking >> to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in law >> school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. But, I >> looked >> for work in that area assuming that employers in that area might be a bit >> more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do not assume that those who >> practice disability rights law are any less susceptible to the biases, >> misperceptions, or lack of understanding that leads to employment >> discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks on the >> reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their >> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My local bar has created >> a >> Taskforce to address, among other issues, employment discrimination >> against >> persons with disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to >> provide >> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >> disabilities >> in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of >> employment discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the >> local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people >>> like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the LSAT this past >>> Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon such >>> as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will see my GPA >>> and somehow assume that all of my professors have independently decided >>> to >>> be generous and grant grades which I do not deserve. This is of course >>> irrational but still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly >>> drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is that I don’t want >>> to >>> be silo into a field which others expect me to enter. I don’t want to be >>> limited to practice law in an area related to one of my most visible and >>> perceptibly limiting characteristics. All of that said, I can see how >>> that >>> may be the most excepting field of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. I am >>> following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have time to >>> perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the >>>> experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and >>>> internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the >>>> candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law >>>> school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the >>>> satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my >>>> abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of >>>> success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no >>>> issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not >>>> being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or >>>> community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >>>>> seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a >>>>> license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I >>>>> can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that >>>>> someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >>>>> when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I >>>>> was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for >>>>> yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work >>>>> with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >>>>> would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much >>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's >>>>>>> right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is >>>>>>> still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law >>>>>>> school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling >>>>>>> contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, >>>>>>> of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand >>>>>>> that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I >>>>>>> will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know >>>>>>> if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or >>>>>>> compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared >>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so >>>>>>> that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>> bridge >>>>>>> to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought >>>>>>>> when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > >>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>>>>> > >>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 22:13:11 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:13:11 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: I vehemently disagree. There's nothing equitable about judging me according to a lower standard based on an incorrect assumption of my capabilities. Academics have expectations too, just like the law, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are good things about using precision and good formatting as a proxy for how diligent an attorney has been, or how much time and effort has gone into producing the work product. I get that that isn't the main conversation here, but it does implicate my proposed underlying solution. On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Nikki, > > How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. > > Sanho > > On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully >> familiar—with >> the apostrophe situation.) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value >> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >> >> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >> for you. >> >> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, >> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest >>>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>>> quotation >>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>>> they >>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>>> the >>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening >>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>>> to >>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>>> see >>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>>> straight >>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>>> this >>>> email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>> www.loeb.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files >>>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>>> to >>>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>>> destroy >>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>>> in >>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> > On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> > >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >> >>>> Cc: Shannon >>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding >>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>> Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand >>>> what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that >>>> we >>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>>> firms >>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>>> and >>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>>> as >>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>>> feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>>> say >>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>>> do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>>> a >>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>>> that >>>> makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>> from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> > >>><%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> > >>><%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw >> mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 22:29:51 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:29:51 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Haha Angie, sorry. I was teasing about the apostrophe thing. I've definitely been burned, too. We should be copresidents of and lead the charge for their abolition. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Laura Wolk wrote: > > I vehemently disagree. There's nothing equitable about judging me > according to a lower standard based on an incorrect assumption of my > capabilities. Academics have expectations too, just like the law, and > there's nothing wrong with that. There are good things about using > precision and good formatting as a proxy for how diligent an attorney > has been, or how much time and effort has gone into producing the work > product. I get that that isn't the main conversation here, but it > does implicate my proposed underlying solution. > >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> Nikki, >> >> How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. >> >> Sanho >> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully >>> familiar—with >>> the apostrophe situation.) >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>> destroy >>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >>> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >>> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value >>> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >>> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >>> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >>> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >>> >>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >>> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >>> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >>> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >>> for you. >>> >>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, >>> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >>> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >>> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>>> >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>>> quotes. >>>>> >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>>> widest >>>>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>>>> quotation >>>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>>>> >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>>>> they >>>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>>>> with >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>>>> the >>>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>>>> >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>>> opening >>>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>>>> to >>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>>>> see >>>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>>>> straight >>>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>>>> >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>>> >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>>> >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>>>> this >>>>> email. >>>>> >>>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>>> www.loeb.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>>> files >>>>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>>>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>>>> to >>>>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>>>> destroy >>>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>>>> in >>>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> > On >>>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> >> >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >> >>>>> Cc: Shannon >>>>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Sorry Laura, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>>> regarding >>>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>>> >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>>> E-Mail: >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, >>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>>> Wolk >>>>> via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>>> understand >>>>> what you are trying to ask. >>>>> >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>>> that >>>>> we >>>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>>>> firms >>>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>>>> It >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>>>> and >>>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>>>> as >>>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>>>> feedback. >>>>> A >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>>>> say >>>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>>>> do. >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>>> This >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>>>> a >>>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>>>> that >>>>> makes your documents look strange." >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Laura and all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>>> from your perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ee >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>><%3e%3e> >>> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>><%3e%3e> >>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To >>>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To >>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw >>> mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> From NSingh at cov.com Tue Sep 24 22:33:43 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:33:43 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <93cc415c23d645d6950ed20b614cecc1@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> Which things? The niceties of typography and format that attorneys use as one more way to erect a barrier of entry to the profession to all prospective practitioners (not at all just limited to blind people)? The history of punctuation? The latter comes from Google. The former comes from paying attention, asking questions, and experiencing some uncomfortable moments and or conversations, whether you solicit them, find yourself on the receiving end of them, or otherwise. Suffice it to say, it can be instrumental to have one or two sighted people in your circle who can take you aside and let you know that in the context of "the visuals," X, Y, Z thing is expected or preferred over something else. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:37 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination [EXTERNAL] Nikki, How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. Sanho On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully > familiar—with the apostrophe situation.) > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, > files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain > confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not > the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to > the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or > attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have > received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the > sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments > without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, > except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing > happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, > and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, > Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when > drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from > Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. > > I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize > the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with > the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. > This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so > tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works > for you. > > And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, too, > check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before > submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret > before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > > wrote: >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>> quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>> quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>> letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>> material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>> into this email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>> www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you >>>have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify >>>the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its >>>attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, >>>Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw >>> > On >>>Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> > >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> >> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>> >> >>> On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>> Cc: Shannon >>> >> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>> quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: >>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>> the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>> behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>> was the right thing to do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> >> >>> wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>> from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>> post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>> of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> >>>> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw > mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 22:37:27 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:37:27 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF78F@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> I certainly didn’t mean to imply that academics have no expectations. (I’m a former academic type, so I know they definitely do—and those expectations can be more exacting than those applicable to us in law school.) And if in this one respect, our law-school experience didn’t prepare us for what life as a lawyer is really like … then, that seems pretty much like the rest of law school to me (saying this kind of, but not completely, tongue-in-cheek). Having said that, I certainly agree that it would have been appropriate for professors to alert us to these errors so that we could develop strategies for addressing them. I do think it would be a good idea to compile a list of these “traps for the unwary,” things that we don’t know we don’t know. And also, I agree—down with apostrophes!!! Or something. ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 6:13 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I vehemently disagree. There's nothing equitable about judging me according to a lower standard based on an incorrect assumption of my capabilities. Academics have expectations too, just like the law, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are good things about using precision and good formatting as a proxy for how diligent an attorney has been, or how much time and effort has gone into producing the work product. I get that that isn't the main conversation here, but it does implicate my proposed underlying solution. On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Nikki, > > How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. > > Sanho > > On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully >> familiar—with >> the apostrophe situation.) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value >> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >> >> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >> for you. >> >> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, >> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest >>>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>>> quotation >>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>>> they >>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>>> the >>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening >>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>>> to >>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>>> see >>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>>> straight >>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>>> this >>>> email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>> www.loeb.com>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3chttp:/www.loeb.com/%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files >>>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>>> to >>>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>>> destroy >>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>>> in >>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> > On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> > >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >> >>>> Cc: Shannon >>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding >>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>> Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand >>>> what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that >>>> we >>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>>> firms >>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>>> and >>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>>> as >>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>>> feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>>> say >>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>>> do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>>> a >>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>>> that >>>> makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>> from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3e> >><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 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get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 23:09:10 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 19:09:10 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Thanks - was Discrimination Message-ID: <575F8FB9-7270-4CEF-9EA8-B9A02A27A2DE@gmail.com> I just wanted to thank Nikki for the tip about Control-Z and to thank Laura for posting about the search-and-replace strategy. These are very helpful tips. Angie Sent from my iPhone From amatney at loeb.com Tue Sep 24 21:26:41 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:26:41 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully familiar—with the apostrophe situation.) ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works for you. And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > wrote: > Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > do we learn these things while we're still in school? > > Sanho > > On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >> >> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest >> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >> quotation >> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >> >> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >> they >> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >> with >> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >> the >> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >> >> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to >> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >> see >> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >> >> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >> this >> email. >> >> Can you tell the difference? >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >> >> >> >><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw >> >> On >> Behalf >> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> >> Cc: Shannon >> >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Sorry Laura, >> >> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >> regarding >> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> Thanks! >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >> Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >> what you are trying to ask. >> >> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that >> we >> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms >> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >> It >> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >> and >> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. >> A >> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >> say >> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. >> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >> This >> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >> makes your documents look strange." >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> >> wrote: >>> Laura and all, >>> >>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>> from your perspective. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> >> wrote: >>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>> >>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>> >>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>> post linked below. >>>> >>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>> >>>> ee >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>> supports that fear. >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>> of practice. >>>>> >>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>><%3e%3e> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>> >>>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 25 00:42:02 2019 From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (Daniel McBride) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 19:42:02 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination Message-ID: <004b01d5733a$0c8b70a0$25a251e0$@sbcglobal.net> Dear Group: This must be among the more remarkable discussions I have followed since joining this list fifteen years ago. Going back to the original post in this thread, I have several observations regarding discrimination and job opportunities. In the 1986 SCOTUS case of Batson v. Kentucky, the issue was raised whether state prosecutors could use preemptory challenges to strike minority veniremen based solely on their minority status. The answer was No in theory and Yes in its real application. The case said that preemptory challenges cannot be used to systematically strike minority veniremen solely because of their being a minority. Rather, in utilizing a preemptory challenge, the State must have a rational and articulable reason for using a challenge on any venireman. The reality of Batson, over the last 33 years, simply changed the State's approach to voir dire. Prosecutors now ask very clever questions of minority veniremen in a manner calculated to give the prosecutor a rational, articulable reason to justify their challenges on minority veniremen, and the systematic exclusion of minority veniremen, in Texas courts, has not changed much at all. So, the true effect of Batson was to tell State prosecutors that they can continue to systematically discriminate against minority veniremen, but that they must do so through a filtering system that will allow the prosecutor to take the witness stand in a Batson hearing and articulate their rationale for using preemptory challenges on all the minorities they struck. In a similar fashion, the laws allegedly prohibiting discrimination against blind persons do not actually prohibit the discriminatory practices we encounter. Rather, the laws create merely a filter through which the hiring employer must pass to allow them to reject the blind applicant. Minority vemiremen continue to be systematically struck by use of the proper filter. Blind persons continue to be discriminated against through the use of the correct filters. This is reality, and I am at a loss for a solution to the problem. Second, whether a sighted or blind person, the American system is a system of privilege. Those with connections get jobs, those without connections do not. I don't offer this observation as an absolute, but, as a general rule, this is how America works. Over the 36 years I have been licensed, many of the jobs I desired were denied, not because I wasn't qualified and capable, but because I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had no connections. On the other hand, had I been born to parents with serious connections, I could have had most any job I wanted, no questions asked. This is, again, just the sad reality of how things really work in America. The official story as to how things are "supposed" to work, and how things "really" work in America are, many times, the difference of day and night. Just my two cents worth. Daniel McBride Fort Worth, Texas From angie.matney at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 00:59:31 2019 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:59:31 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <93cc415c23d645d6950ed20b614cecc1@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF644@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <93cc415c23d645d6950ed20b614cecc1@CBIvEX03eUS.cov.com> Message-ID: <48E9313E-D369-4A9B-BFAB-C64CDF431066@gmail.com> Thanks to Nikki for the control-Z tip, and thanks to Laura for posting about the control-character values. I tried to post this earlier but I didn't see it. Thanks all for the interesting conversation. Angie Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 6:33 PM, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw wrote: > > Which things? The niceties of typography and format that attorneys use as one more way to erect a barrier of entry to the profession to all prospective practitioners (not at all just limited to blind people)? The history of punctuation? The latter comes from Google. The former comes from paying attention, asking questions, and experiencing some uncomfortable moments and or conversations, whether you solicit them, find yourself on the receiving end of them, or otherwise. Suffice it to say, it can be instrumental to have one or two sighted people in your circle who can take you aside and let you know that in the context of "the visuals," X, Y, Z thing is expected or preferred over something else. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:37 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > [EXTERNAL] > > Nikki, > > How did you learn these things? I'd love to learn how to teach myself. > > Sanho > >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura, thanks. (And yeah, I’m quite familiar—perhaps painfully >> familiar—with the apostrophe situation.) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or >> attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:16 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, >> and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >> >> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >> for you. >> >> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, too, >> check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>>> quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>>> letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>>> material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>>> into this email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>> www.loeb.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you >>>> have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify >>>> the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its >>>> attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, >>>> Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> > On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> > >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> >>>> On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> Cc: Shannon >>>> >>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>>> quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>>> the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>>> behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>>> was the right thing to do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>> from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> > >>><%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 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_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw >> mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 01:06:30 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:06:30 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <004b01d5733a$0c8b70a0$25a251e0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <004b01d5733a$0c8b70a0$25a251e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Dear Daniel and all, I simply cannot agree with the fatalistic understanding of "privilege" sketched in the second half of your email. When I went to law school, I had no lawyers in my family, let alone well-connected ones. Any connections I did have dropped me like a hot potato after my religion and politics changed. I had no connections to any of the groups that are supposed to mysteriously place people with the right ideologies in the right places. And I floundered and did horribly trying to go to large cocktail mixers on my own. My 1L summer I interviewed with over 40 firms, with top-notch grades and a law review placement. I got one callback. But guess what? I made my own connections. And I firmly believe that I don't possess any characteristic that any other human can't or couldn't develop. I worked extraordinarily hard, perhaps hardest, at developing the infrastructure and support network that some folks are just born into. Yes it's harder, but just like everything else we do when compared to the sighted world, it is very doable. I learned how to tell my own story, to get people interested in me, to learn the things about me that stood out and made people take notice. And anyone on this list can do the same. Our biggest hurdle is not the type of invidious, hateful discrimination that kept black men off of juries. Our biggest hurdle is innocent ignorance and lack of exposure. Those two forms of employment discrimination are not remotely the same, and so I don't think employers are purposely screening out blind applicants in the way you are describing. Laura On 9/24/19, Daniel McBride via BlindLaw wrote: > Dear Group: > > This must be among the more remarkable discussions I have followed since > joining this list fifteen years ago. > > Going back to the original post in this thread, I have several observations > regarding discrimination and job opportunities. > > In the 1986 SCOTUS case of Batson v. Kentucky, the issue was raised whether > state prosecutors could use preemptory challenges to strike minority > veniremen based solely on their minority status. The answer was No in > theory > and Yes in its real application. > > The case said that preemptory challenges cannot be used to systematically > strike minority veniremen solely because of their being a minority. Rather, > in utilizing a preemptory challenge, the State must have a rational and > articulable reason for using a challenge on any venireman. > > The reality of Batson, over the last 33 years, simply changed the State's > approach to voir dire. Prosecutors now ask very clever questions of > minority > veniremen in a manner calculated to give the prosecutor a rational, > articulable reason to justify their challenges on minority veniremen, and > the systematic exclusion of minority veniremen, in Texas courts, has not > changed much at all. > > So, the true effect of Batson was to tell State prosecutors that they can > continue to systematically discriminate against minority veniremen, but > that > they must do so through a filtering system that will allow the prosecutor > to > take the witness stand in a Batson hearing and articulate their rationale > for using preemptory challenges on all the minorities they struck. > > In a similar fashion, the laws allegedly prohibiting discrimination against > blind persons do not actually prohibit the discriminatory practices we > encounter. Rather, the laws create merely a filter through which the hiring > employer must pass to allow them to reject the blind applicant. > > Minority vemiremen continue to be systematically struck by use of the > proper > filter. Blind persons continue to be discriminated against through the use > of the correct filters. This is reality, and I am at a loss for a solution > to the problem. > > Second, whether a sighted or blind person, the American system is a system > of privilege. Those with connections get jobs, those without connections do > not. I don't offer this observation as an absolute, but, as a general rule, > this is how America works. Over the 36 years I have been licensed, many of > the jobs I desired were denied, not because I wasn't qualified and capable, > but because I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had no > connections. On the other hand, had I been born to parents with serious > connections, I could have had most any job I wanted, no questions asked. > > This is, again, just the sad reality of how things really work in America. > The official story as to how things are "supposed" to work, and how things > "really" work in America are, many times, the difference of day and night. > > Just my two cents worth. > > Daniel McBride > Fort Worth, Texas > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From sanho817 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 01:16:28 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:16:28 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d5733a$0c8b70a0$25a251e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Laura, I emailed you off-list earlier today. In short, your response here is exactly the reason I'd love to talk. I'd deeply appreciate some of your time. Warmth, Sanho On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Dear Daniel and all, > > I simply cannot agree with the fatalistic understanding of "privilege" > sketched in the second half of your email. When I went to law school, > I had no lawyers in my family, let alone well-connected ones. Any > connections I did have dropped me like a hot potato after my religion > and politics changed. I had no connections to any of the groups that > are supposed to mysteriously place people with the right ideologies in > the right places. And I floundered and did horribly trying to go to > large cocktail mixers on my own. My 1L summer I interviewed with over > 40 firms, with top-notch grades and a law review placement. I got > one callback. But guess what? I made my own connections. And I > firmly believe that I don't possess any characteristic that any other > human can't or couldn't develop. I worked extraordinarily hard, > perhaps hardest, at developing the infrastructure and support network > that some folks are just born into. Yes it's harder, but just like > everything else we do when compared to the sighted world, it is very > doable. I learned how to tell my own story, to get people interested > in me, to learn the things about me that stood out and made people > take notice. And anyone on this list can do the same. > > Our biggest hurdle is not the type of invidious, hateful > discrimination that kept black men off of juries. Our biggest hurdle > is innocent ignorance and lack of exposure. Those two forms of > employment discrimination are not remotely the same, and so I don't > think employers are purposely screening out blind applicants in the > way you are describing. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Daniel McBride via BlindLaw wrote: >> Dear Group: >> >> This must be among the more remarkable discussions I have followed since >> joining this list fifteen years ago. >> >> Going back to the original post in this thread, I have several >> observations >> regarding discrimination and job opportunities. >> >> In the 1986 SCOTUS case of Batson v. Kentucky, the issue was raised >> whether >> state prosecutors could use preemptory challenges to strike minority >> veniremen based solely on their minority status. The answer was No in >> theory >> and Yes in its real application. >> >> The case said that preemptory challenges cannot be used to systematically >> strike minority veniremen solely because of their being a minority. >> Rather, >> in utilizing a preemptory challenge, the State must have a rational and >> articulable reason for using a challenge on any venireman. >> >> The reality of Batson, over the last 33 years, simply changed the State's >> approach to voir dire. Prosecutors now ask very clever questions of >> minority >> veniremen in a manner calculated to give the prosecutor a rational, >> articulable reason to justify their challenges on minority veniremen, and >> the systematic exclusion of minority veniremen, in Texas courts, has not >> changed much at all. >> >> So, the true effect of Batson was to tell State prosecutors that they can >> continue to systematically discriminate against minority veniremen, but >> that >> they must do so through a filtering system that will allow the prosecutor >> to >> take the witness stand in a Batson hearing and articulate their rationale >> for using preemptory challenges on all the minorities they struck. >> >> In a similar fashion, the laws allegedly prohibiting discrimination >> against >> blind persons do not actually prohibit the discriminatory practices we >> encounter. Rather, the laws create merely a filter through which the >> hiring >> employer must pass to allow them to reject the blind applicant. >> >> Minority vemiremen continue to be systematically struck by use of the >> proper >> filter. Blind persons continue to be discriminated against through the >> use >> of the correct filters. This is reality, and I am at a loss for a >> solution >> to the problem. >> >> Second, whether a sighted or blind person, the American system is a >> system >> of privilege. Those with connections get jobs, those without connections >> do >> not. I don't offer this observation as an absolute, but, as a general >> rule, >> this is how America works. Over the 36 years I have been licensed, many >> of >> the jobs I desired were denied, not because I wasn't qualified and >> capable, >> but because I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had no >> connections. On the other hand, had I been born to parents with serious >> connections, I could have had most any job I wanted, no questions asked. >> >> This is, again, just the sad reality of how things really work in >> America. >> The official story as to how things are "supposed" to work, and how >> things >> "really" work in America are, many times, the difference of day and >> night. >> >> Just my two cents worth. >> >> Daniel McBride >> Fort Worth, Texas >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From sbg at sbgaal.com Wed Sep 25 01:51:20 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:51:20 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> How are they used differently? Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Phone: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from your system. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: > > Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. > > As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted people that it might never get discussed verbally. > > I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. > > I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, really not!) > > That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes the other. > > Best, > > Angie > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > [Loeb & Loeb LLP] > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > > ________________________________ > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > ________________________________ > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > do we learn these things while we're still in school? > > Sanho > >> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > wrote: >> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >> >> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest >> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the quotation >> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >> >> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they >> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with >> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the >> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >> >> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to >> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see >> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >> >> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this >> email. >> >> Can you tell the difference? >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >> >> >> >> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy >> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in >> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw >> >> On Behalf >> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >> >> Cc: Shannon >> >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Sorry Laura, >> >> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding >> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> Thanks! >> Sincerely, >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >> what you are trying to ask. >> >> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we >> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms >> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It >> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and >> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A >> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say >> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. >> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This >> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >> makes your documents look strange." >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> >> wrote: >>> Laura and all, >>> >>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>> from your perspective. >>> >>> Warmth, >>> Sanho >>> >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>> >> wrote: >>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>> >>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>> >>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>> post linked below. >>>> >>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>> >>>> ee >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>> supports that fear. >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>> of practice. >>>>> >>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>> >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>> >>>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 12:46:17 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 08:46:17 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: > How are they used differently? > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Phone: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by the > attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with any > attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic Communications > Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is intended only for the > personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named in the > communication, and the privileges are not waived by virtue of this having > been sent by electronic mail. If the person actually receiving this > communication or any other reader of the communication is not the named > recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of the > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone (please > call collect) and delete the original from your system. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >> >> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the problem is >> this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted people that it >> might never get discussed verbally. >> >> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, have >> a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. Many of >> them get corrected while we are pretty young. >> >> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked them >> how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you see >> watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would ask this >> question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon juice was >> clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, really not!) >> >> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to explain >> to me before that time. I was a little kid when this particular >> misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one about quotes didn’t >> get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend earlier that I thought >> it might have been while I was in law school, but I actually think I knew >> there were different quotes before that—I just didn’t realize that >> sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes the other. >> >> Best, >> >> Angie >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or >> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho >> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest >>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>> quotation >>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>> they >>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>> the >>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening >>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>> to >>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>> see >>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight >>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>> this >>> email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>> www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files >>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>> destroy >>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>> in >>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw >>> > On >>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>> BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> > >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> >> >>> On Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >> >>> Cc: Shannon >>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding >>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: >>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>> Wolk >>> via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand >>> what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that >>> we >>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>> firms >>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>> and >>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as >>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>> say >>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>> do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a >>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that >>> makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> >> >>> wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>> from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>> post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>> of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>> >>>> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw >> mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From sai at fiatfiendum.org Wed Sep 25 13:31:01 2019 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:31:01 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Typography Message-ID: On the discrimination thread, a few issues related to typography came up. 1. Smart quotes are in Braille. opening & closing single quote = ‘ & ’ = ⠠⠦ & ⠠⠴ (that should be dot 6, not dot 3) opening & closing double quote = “ & ” = ⠦ & ⠴ Often straight single (') & double (") quotes are used instead, eg because it's easier to type and to find & replace. "Smart quotes" means that the software replaces the straight quotes I just used with “opening & closing quotes like this”, just based on spacing. Space before = “opening; space after = closing”; no space either side = straight"quotes. Straight single quote is identical to both apostrophe (for contractions like that's) and the hours symbol (as in both time and degrees of angle); double quotes is identical to both the vertical ditto symbol (in English) and minutes (again both time & angle). 2. I suggest reading Matthew Butterick's book "Typography for Lawyers", excerpted here: https://typographyforlawyers.com/toc.html The book itself is only available in softbound copy: https://store.legal.thomsonreuters.com/law-products/Practice-Materials/Typography-for-Lawyers-2d/p/105523076 Perhaps some of you might contact the author & publisher to get them to make a blind accessible version available. Their emails are, respectively (in ready to paste format): "Matthew Butterick" , "Thomson Reuters West accessibility" If you have success, please let me know. 3. I'm a rare combination: fully sighted sometimes, fully blind other times, experienced at writing & editing legal briefs, plus some background in UX design. So, if you have questions about this kind of topic that your own research doesn't answer, feel free to ask me. I mostly use computers fully sighted at home (eg writing briefs), except for navigation or in normal lighting (eg taking notes in an office or school setting), so I'm not as well versed in eg NVDA. But I might be able to explain things at the intersection of sighted & blind. Sincerely, Sai President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3) PS Non-gendered pronouns please. NSA et al: I'm a US citizen. Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect errors. From sai at fiatfiendum.org Wed Sep 25 13:45:44 2019 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:45:44 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Typography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction: "smart quotes" ignores trailing punctuation when determining if there's a following space. E.g. it works at the end of sentence if you have a period after the quote. You can turn smart quotes off in the word processor and/or system-wide keyboard settings options. Using straight quotes instead of directional (smart) quotes will never be wrong, it just won't look as good. Using the wrong directional quote is a noticeable error, though. So, if you want to avoid errors at the cost of looking a bit less nice, just use straight quotes for everything and turn off smart quotes. Sincerely, Sai President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc. On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 2:31 PM Sai wrote: > > On the discrimination thread, a few issues related to typography came up. > > 1. Smart quotes are in Braille. > > opening & closing single quote = ‘ & ’ = ⠠⠦ & ⠠⠴ (that should be dot 6, not dot 3) > opening & closing double quote = “ & ” = ⠦ & ⠴ > > Often straight single (') & double (") quotes are used instead, eg because it's easier to type and to find & replace. > > "Smart quotes" means that the software replaces the straight quotes I just used with “opening & closing quotes like this”, just based on spacing. Space before = “opening; space after = closing”; no space either side = straight"quotes. > > Straight single quote is identical to both apostrophe (for contractions like that's) and the hours symbol (as in both time and degrees of angle); double quotes is identical to both the vertical ditto symbol (in English) and minutes (again both time & angle). > > > > 2. I suggest reading Matthew Butterick's book "Typography for Lawyers", excerpted here: > > https://typographyforlawyers.com/toc.html > > The book itself is only available in softbound copy: > > https://store.legal.thomsonreuters.com/law-products/Practice-Materials/Typography-for-Lawyers-2d/p/105523076 > > Perhaps some of you might contact the author & publisher to get them to make a blind accessible version available. > > Their emails are, respectively (in ready to paste format): > > "Matthew Butterick" , "Thomson Reuters West accessibility" > > If you have success, please let me know. > > > 3. I'm a rare combination: fully sighted sometimes, fully blind other times, experienced at writing & editing legal briefs, plus some background in UX design. > > So, if you have questions about this kind of topic that your own research doesn't answer, feel free to ask me. > > I mostly use computers fully sighted at home (eg writing briefs), except for navigation or in normal lighting (eg taking notes in an office or school setting), so I'm not as well versed in eg NVDA. But I might be able to explain things at the intersection of sighted & blind. > > Sincerely, > Sai > President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3) > > PS Non-gendered pronouns please. NSA et al: I'm a US citizen. > > Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect errors. From rfarber at jw.com Wed Sep 25 15:42:13 2019 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 15:42:13 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. Randy -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: > How are they used differently? > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Phone: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by > the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with > any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is > intended only for the personal and confidential use of the > recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not > waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the > person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of > the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, > distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please immediately > notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from your system. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >> >> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >> >> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >> >> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >> really not!) >> >> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes the other. >> >> Best, >> >> Angie >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> ________________________________ >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho >> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >> Sanho >> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes. >>> >>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>> quote. >>> >>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>> letter “C,” >>> with >>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>> material. >>> >>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>> >>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>> >>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>> >>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>> into this email. >>> >>> Can you tell the difference? >>> >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>> www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw >>> > On >>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> > >>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw >>> >> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>> >> >>> On Behalf >>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>> >> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>> Cc: Shannon >>> >> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Sorry Laura, >>> >>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>> quote/apostrophe? >>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>> Thanks! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: >>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>> the sender and delete all copies. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>> >>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>> behind and clean up the work. >>> It >>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>> A >>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>> was the right thing to do. >>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>> This >>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> >> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>> wrote: >>>> Laura and all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >>>> to learn more from your perspective. >>>> >>>> Warmth, >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> >>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>> >>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>> >>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >>>>> itt >>>>> >>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> >>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> ee >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>> field of practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > indlaw at nfbnet.org> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.o >>>>>>>>>>>> rg/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9%3cBR%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>> aw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/li >>>>>>>>>>> stinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>> e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfett >>>>>>>>>>> er% >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 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l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>> et.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>> 3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e% >>>> 3e%3e> >>>> To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40 >>>> gma >>>> >>> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> >>> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbn >>>> et.org/laura.wolk%40gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> >> com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc. >>> rr.com >>> >>> >>> >> .rr.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ >> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> >> mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >> com _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >> m > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 16:58:28 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:58:28 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> Message-ID: Hi Randy, I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to face the wrong way. Laura On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy wrote: > Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit > to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always > have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use > smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there > could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared > by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is > a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. > Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and > I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. > > Randy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. > > On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: >> How are they used differently? >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Phone: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by >> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with >> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic >> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is >> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the >> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not >> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the >> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of >> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, >> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. >> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately >> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from >> your system. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >>> >>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >>> >>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >>> >>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >>> really not!) >>> >>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes >>> the other. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho >>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>>> quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>>> letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>>> material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>>> into this email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>> www.loeb.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> > On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> > >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>>> >> >>>> On Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> Cc: Shannon >>>> >>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>>> quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>>> the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>>> behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>>> was the right thing to do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> >>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >>>>> to learn more from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to >>>>>> go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >>>>>> itt >>>>>> >>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>> >>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >>>>>>> worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting >>>>>>> characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>>> field of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make >>>>>>>>> connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> >> indlaw at nfbnet.org>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>>>>>>>>>> employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.o >>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9%3cBR%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>> aw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/li >>>>>>>>>>>> stinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>> e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfett >>>>>>>>>>>> er% >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> /mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%25%3cBR%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinf >>>>>>>>>>> o/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>>>> options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> 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_______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc. >>>> rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> .rr.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb >>>> .com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw>> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ >>> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> >>> mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >>> com _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >>> m >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > From amatney at loeb.com Wed Sep 25 17:54:04 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:54:04 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246D0684@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Laura, interesting. Do you have any insight as to when Randy’s method doesn’t work? I think it would work most of the time, but I freely admit I could be wrong about that. If it works most of the time, I think I’d use it and then just leave it to my assistant to fix the remaining errors. Given my billable rate and the nature of the work I do, I think that’s what my firm would want me to do. But I realize this might not always be the case. Thanks. ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 12:58 PM To: Farber, Randy Cc: Laura Wolk ; Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Hi Randy, I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to face the wrong way. Laura On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy > wrote: > Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit > to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always > have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use > smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there > could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared > by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is > a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. > Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and > I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. > > Randy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > > Cc: Laura Wolk > > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > > They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. > > On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw > wrote: >> How are they used differently? >> >> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC >> 1212 Texas Avenue >> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> Phone: (806) 763-3999 >> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by >> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with >> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic >> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is >> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the >> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not >> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the >> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of >> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, >> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. >> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately >> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from >> your system. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >>> >>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >>> >>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >>> >>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >>> really not!) >>> >>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes >>> the other. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>> Attorney at Law >>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >>> >>> >>> >>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> ________________________________ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Sanho >>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > >>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>> >>> >>> >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> >> wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>>> quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>>> letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>>> material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>>> into this email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>> www.loeb.com>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>><%3e%3chttp:/www.loeb.com/%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >> On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >> >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> >>>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>>> >> >>>> On Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> >>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> Cc: Shannon >>>> >>>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>>> quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com: >>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>>> the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>>> behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>>> was the right thing to do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> >>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >>>>> to learn more from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to >>>>>> go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >>>>>> itt >>>>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >>>>>>> worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting >>>>>>> characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>>> field of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make >>>>>>>>> connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> indlaw at nfbnet.org >>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>>>>>>>>>> employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40 >>>>> gma >>>>> >>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>>> >>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbn >>>>> et.org/laura.wolk%40gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > >>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e> com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>> 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>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >>> com _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >>> m >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 18:05:18 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 19:05:18 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> Message-ID: I have often wished that people would clearly tell me what I could precisely do, to make the document look better. To the extent I can, I’d be very happy to do whatever needs doing. The satisfaction of knowing that it is solely your work product outstrips the effort involved in getting it right. Before I came back to law school for my postgraduate education, when I was working at a law firm, the fact that I always had to get my documents formatted by someone used to really irk me. It used to also reduce the pace at which I could deliver the work I was assigned. I will also say that it’s important that the feedback be given in ways that are constructive. A partner I was once working for said that he could not review at a document that was ‘crooked’ when I turned in my brief for his review. Lastly, I agree that academia also needs to hold blind folks to higher standards. A few months ago, I was speaking with two blind friends at Oxford who were pursuing the MPhil in Law - a research degree. One of them had just received comments on her work. She did not know how to view comments. I was really shocked. Both of them did not know how to use quick navigation keys, the virtual viewer, etc. More important, they didn’t even regard this as a glaring omission. My friend said the keystrokes I was telling her were far too many for her to remember and that she’d sit with me some other time to go over them. She never reached out to do this. You cannot solve a problem whose existence you refuse to acknowledge. Rahul Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi Randy, > > I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding > and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to > face the wrong way. > > Laura > >> On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy wrote: >> Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit >> to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always >> have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use >> smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there >> could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared >> by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is >> a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. >> Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and >> I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. >> >> Randy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. >> >>> On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: >>> How are they used differently? >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Phone: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by >>> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with >>> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic >>> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is >>> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the >>> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not >>> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the >>> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of >>> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, >>> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. >>> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately >>> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from >>> your system. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >>>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >>>> >>>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >>>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >>>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >>>> >>>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >>>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >>>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >>>> >>>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >>>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >>>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >>>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >>>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >>>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >>>> really not!) >>>> >>>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >>>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >>>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >>>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >>>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >>>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >>>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes >>>> the other. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho >>>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>>> >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>>> quotes. >>>>> >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>>>> quote. >>>>> >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>>>> letter “C,” >>>>> with >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>>>> material. >>>>> >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>>>> >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>>> >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>>> >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>>>> into this email. >>>>> >>>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>>> www.loeb.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> > On >>>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> >>>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>>>> On Behalf >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> Cc: Shannon >>>>> >>>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Sorry Laura, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>>>> quote/apostrophe? >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>>> >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>>> E-Mail: >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>>>> the sender and delete all copies. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>>>> >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>>>> behind and clean up the work. >>>>> It >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>>>> A >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>>>> was the right thing to do. >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>>> This >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Laura and all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >>>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >>>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >>>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >>>>>> to learn more from your perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >>>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >>>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >>>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >>>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to >>>>>>> go to law school. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >>>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >>>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >>>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >>>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >>>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >>>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >>>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >>>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >>>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >>>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >>>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >>>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >>>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >>>>>>> itt >>>>>>> >>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>> >>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >>>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>> ee >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >>>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >>>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >>>>>>>> worth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >>>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >>>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >>>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >>>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting >>>>>>>> characteristics. >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>>>> field of practice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >>>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >>>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >>>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >>>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >>>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >>>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >>>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >>>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >>>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >>>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >>>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >>>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >>>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >>>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >>>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >>>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make >>>>>>>>>> connections. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> indlaw at nfbnet.org>>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >>>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >>>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >>>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>>>>>>>>>>> employers' >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc. >>>>> rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> .rr.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb >>>>> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw>>> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ >>>> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> >>>> mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >>>> m >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com From amatney at loeb.com Wed Sep 25 18:15:19 2019 From: amatney at loeb.com (Angela Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 18:15:19 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> Message-ID: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246D0756@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Rahul, I agree, to a point. I always take whatever steps I can (within reason) to format a document correctly, because this is often more efficient. Sometimes, however, it is not practical for me to deal with certain attributes of the document. Just as other attorneys at my firm “outsource” similar work to their assistants or to our Word Processing department, I use these resources when I need to do so. I will also ask them to reformat documents prepared by others if necessary for accessibility-related reasons. I think we all have to figure out what works best, given the time and resources available to us. I like knowing that, if I had to, I could deal with most formatting issues independently. But I’m also glad that I do occasionally have the option to delegate some of this, just as other attorneys in my firm do. Thanks, Angie Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. ________________________________ From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 2:05 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Rahul Bajaj Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I have often wished that people would clearly tell me what I could precisely do, to make the document look better. To the extent I can, I’d be very happy to do whatever needs doing. The satisfaction of knowing that it is solely your work product outstrips the effort involved in getting it right. Before I came back to law school for my postgraduate education, when I was working at a law firm, the fact that I always had to get my documents formatted by someone used to really irk me. It used to also reduce the pace at which I could deliver the work I was assigned. I will also say that it’s important that the feedback be given in ways that are constructive. A partner I was once working for said that he could not review at a document that was ‘crooked’ when I turned in my brief for his review. Lastly, I agree that academia also needs to hold blind folks to higher standards. A few months ago, I was speaking with two blind friends at Oxford who were pursuing the MPhil in Law - a research degree. One of them had just received comments on her work. She did not know how to view comments. I was really shocked. Both of them did not know how to use quick navigation keys, the virtual viewer, etc. More important, they didn’t even regard this as a glaring omission. My friend said the keystrokes I was telling her were far too many for her to remember and that she’d sit with me some other time to go over them. She never reached out to do this. You cannot solve a problem whose existence you refuse to acknowledge. Rahul Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw > wrote: > > Hi Randy, > > I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding > and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to > face the wrong way. > > Laura > >> On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy > wrote: >> Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit >> to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always >> have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use >> smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there >> could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared >> by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is >> a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. >> Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and >> I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. >> >> Randy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >> Cc: Laura Wolk > >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. >> >>> On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw > wrote: >>> How are they used differently? >>> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>> Phone: (806) 763-3999 >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by >>> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with >>> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic >>> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is >>> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the >>> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not >>> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the >>> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of >>> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, >>> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. >>> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately >>> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from >>> your system. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >>>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >>>> >>>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >>>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >>>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >>>> >>>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >>>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >>>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >>>> >>>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >>>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >>>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >>>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >>>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >>>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >>>> really not!) >>>> >>>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >>>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >>>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >>>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >>>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >>>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >>>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes >>>> the other. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw > On Behalf Of Sanho >>>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>>> >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>>> quotes. >>>>> >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >>>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >>>>> quote. >>>>> >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >>>>> letter “C,” >>>>> with >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >>>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >>>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >>>>> material. >>>>> >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >>>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >>>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >>>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >>>>> >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>>> >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>>> >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >>>>> into this email. >>>>> >>>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >>>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >>>>> www.loeb.com>> >>>>><%3e%3chttp:/www.loeb.com/%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >>>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >>>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >>>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> >> On >>>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >> >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>>>> On Behalf >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> Cc: Shannon >>>>> >>>>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Sorry Laura, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >>>>> quote/apostrophe? >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>>> >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>>> E-Mail: >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com: >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >>>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >>>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >>>>> the sender and delete all copies. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >>>>> >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >>>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >>>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >>>>> behind and clean up the work. >>>>> It >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >>>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >>>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >>>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >>>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >>>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >>>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >>>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >>>>> A >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >>>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >>>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >>>>> was the right thing to do. >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>>> This >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >>>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >>>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Laura and all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >>>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >>>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >>>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >>>>>> to learn more from your perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> >>>>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >>>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >>>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >>>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >>>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to >>>>>>> go to law school. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >>>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >>>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >>>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >>>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >>>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >>>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >>>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >>>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >>>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >>>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >>>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >>>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >>>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >>>>>>> itt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >>>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>> ee >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >>>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >>>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >>>>>>>> worth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >>>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >>>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >>>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >>>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting >>>>>>>> characteristics. >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>>>> field of practice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >>>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >>>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >>>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >>>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >>>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >>>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >>>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >>>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >>>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >>>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >>>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >>>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >>>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >>>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >>>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >>>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make >>>>>>>>>> connections. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> indlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >>>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >>>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >>>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud >>>>>>>>>>>> employers' >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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>>>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> utn >>>> >>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e> %3e>> >>>> >>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e> %3e>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/bli >>>>>>>>>>> ndlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e><%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e% >>>>>>>>>>> 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info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb >>>>> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw>>> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ >>>> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> >>>> mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >>>> com _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >>>> m >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> 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Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2157 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From seifs at umich.edu Wed Sep 25 18:27:50 2019 From: seifs at umich.edu (Seif-Eldeen Saqallah) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:27:50 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Using Trackchanges, strikethrough, and redline in word? Message-ID: Hello all, Since formatting threads are going around, I would love any advice on using word's trackchanges, redlining, and strikethough features with JAWS(2018). Generally, I have been putting things in brackets close to the text to which they refer [like these] and bolding them for my sighted peers. This would be especially helpful in the transactional drafting context. Sincerely, Seif -- Seif Saqallah University of Michigan Juris Doctor/ Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 248-325-7091 seifs at umich.edu Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of Michigan Law School 3120 Jeffries Hall 701 South State Street Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 www.law.umich.edu/ITC The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including attachments, if any). From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 18:32:16 2019 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 19:32:16 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246D0756@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246D0756@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Angela, I agree about the need to be pragmatic. There’s no point, for instance, in adopting a categorical approach that one will always format one’s documents oneself. If that ends up imposing an onerous burden on you or the firm, time and energy- wise, it would be better, for everyone involved, to seek help. Being in a position where this becomes a genuine choice, rather than just the way things always are, however, is crucial. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2019, at 7:15 PM, Angela Matney wrote: > > Rahul, I agree, to a point. I always take whatever steps I can (within reason) to format a document correctly, because this is often more efficient. Sometimes, however, it is not practical for me to deal with certain attributes of the document. Just as other attorneys at my firm “outsource” similar work to their assistants or to our Word Processing department, I use these resources when I need to do so. I will also ask them to reformat documents prepared by others if necessary for accessibility-related reasons. > > I think we all have to figure out what works best, given the time and resources available to us. I like knowing that, if I had to, I could deal with most formatting issues independently. But I’m also glad that I do occasionally have the option to delegate some of this, just as other attorneys in my firm do. > > Thanks, > > Angie > > > > Angela Matney, CIPP/US > Attorney at Law > > Loeb and Loeb LLP > 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 > Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 2:05 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Rahul Bajaj > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > > > I have often wished that people would clearly tell me what I could precisely do, to make the document look better. To the extent I can, I’d be very happy to do whatever needs doing. The satisfaction of knowing that it is solely your work product outstrips the effort involved in getting it right. Before I came back to law school for my postgraduate education, when I was working at a law firm, the fact that I always had to get my documents formatted by someone used to really irk me. It used to also reduce the pace at which I could deliver the work I was assigned. > > I will also say that it’s important that the feedback be given in ways that are constructive. A partner I was once working for said that he could not review at a document that was ‘crooked’ when I turned in my brief for his review. > > Lastly, I agree that academia also needs to hold blind folks to higher standards. A few months ago, I was speaking with two blind friends at Oxford who were pursuing the MPhil in Law - a research degree. One of them had just received comments on her work. She did not know how to view comments. I was really shocked. Both of them did not know how to use quick navigation keys, the virtual viewer, etc. More important, they didn’t even regard this as a glaring omission. My friend said the keystrokes I was telling her were far too many for her to remember and that she’d sit with me some other time to go over them. She never reached out to do this. > > You cannot solve a problem whose existence you refuse to acknowledge. > > Rahul > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 25, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > > > > Hi Randy, > > > > I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding > > and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to > > face the wrong way. > > > > Laura > > > >> On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy wrote: > >> Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a habit > >> to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I always > >> have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always use > >> smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there > >> could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document prepared > >> by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to do is > >> a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. > >> Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes and > >> I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. > >> > >> Randy > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via > >> BlindLaw > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM > >> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >> Cc: Laura Wolk > >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > >> > >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** > >> > >> They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter days. > >> > >>> On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: > >>> How are they used differently? > >>> > >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler > >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC > >>> 1212 Texas Avenue > >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 > >>> Phone: (806) 763-3999 > >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 > >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > >>> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by > >>> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with > >>> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic > >>> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is > >>> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the > >>> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not > >>> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the > >>> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of > >>> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, > >>> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. > >>> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately > >>> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original from > >>> your system. > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in > >>>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. > >>>> > >>>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the > >>>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted > >>>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. > >>>> > >>>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, > >>>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. > >>>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. > >>>> > >>>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and > >>>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked > >>>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you > >>>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would > >>>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon > >>>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, > >>>> really not!) > >>>> > >>>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to > >>>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this > >>>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one > >>>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend > >>>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, > >>>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I > >>>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and sometimes > >>>> the other. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> > >>>> Angie > >>>> > >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US > >>>> Attorney at Law > >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP > >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | > >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, > >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain > >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not > >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to > >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in > >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have > >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the > >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments > >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho > >>>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM > >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. > >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world > >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? > >>>> > >>>> Sanho > >>>> > >>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw > >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double > >>>>> quotes. > >>>>> > >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The > >>>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents > >>>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing > >>>>> quote. > >>>>> > >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, > >>>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print > >>>>> letter “C,” > >>>>> with > >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of > >>>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve > >>>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the > >>>>> material. > >>>>> > >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the > >>>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two > >>>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, > >>>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an > >>>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and > >>>>> correct me it I’m wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” > >>>>> > >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." > >>>>> > >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it > >>>>> into this email. > >>>>> > >>>>> Can you tell the difference? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US > >>>>> Attorney at Law > >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP > >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct > >>>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | > >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com > >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San > >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | > >>>>> www.loeb.com>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, > >>>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain > >>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not > >>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to > >>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > >>>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in > >>>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have > >>>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the > >>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments > >>>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: BlindLaw > >>>>> > On > >>>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM > >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >>>>> > > >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: BlindLaw > >>>>> >>>>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> > >>>>> On Behalf > >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > >>>>> >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>> Cc: Shannon > >>>>> >>>>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > >>>>> > >>>>> Sorry Laura, > >>>>> > >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was > >>>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart > >>>>> quote/apostrophe? > >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > >>>>> Thanks! > >>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>> > >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler > >>>>> > >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue > >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 > >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 > >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 > >>>>> E-Mail: > >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is > >>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole > >>>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution > >>>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly > >>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > >>>>> the sender and delete all copies. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List > >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk > >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > >>>>> > >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite > >>>>> understand what you are trying to ask. > >>>>> > >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is > >>>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in > >>>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual > >>>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along > >>>>> behind and clean up the work. > >>>>> It > >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the > >>>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and > >>>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person > >>>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to > >>>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the > >>>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was > >>>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. > >>>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address > >>>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. > >>>>> A > >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that > >>>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my > >>>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it > >>>>> was the right thing to do. > >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. > >>>>> This > >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft > >>>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed > >>>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally > >>>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." > >>>>> > >>>>> Laura > >>>>> > >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw > >>>>> >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> Laura and all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding > >>>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a > >>>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask > >>>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list > >>>>>> to learn more from your perspective. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Warmth, > >>>>>> Sanho > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > >>>>>> >>>>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school > >>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position > >>>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over > >>>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. > >>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell > >>>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done > >>>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking to > >>>>>>> go to law school. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work > >>>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. > >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in > >>>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was > >>>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law > >>>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of > >>>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating > >>>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are > >>>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few > >>>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other > >>>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with > >>>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide > >>>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with > >>>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the > >>>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by > >>>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, > >>>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm > >>>>>>> itt > >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 > >>>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>> ee > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons > >>>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took > >>>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s > >>>>>>>> worth. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes > >>>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a > >>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that > >>>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my > >>>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant > >>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but > >>>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not > >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why > >>>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect > >>>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an > >>>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting > >>>>>>>> characteristics. > >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting > >>>>>>>> field of practice. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. > >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have > >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak > >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that > >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of > >>>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ > >>>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my > >>>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to > >>>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, > >>>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work > >>>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace > >>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general > >>>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so > >>>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no > >>>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. > >>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> James, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law > >>>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I > >>>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how > >>>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed > >>>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me > >>>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other > >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I > >>>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a > >>>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as > >>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make > >>>>>>>>>> connections. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I > >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart > >>>>>>>>>>> break. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak > >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>> indlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an > >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many > >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law > >>>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" > >>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I > >>>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light > >>>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, > >>>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the > >>>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking > >>>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing > >>>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling > >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. > >>>>>>>>>>>> You > >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things > >>>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in > >>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for > >>>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is > >>>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud > >>>>>>>>>>>> employers' > >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given > >>>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of > >>>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that > >>>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a > >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.o > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9%3cBR%3e%3e% > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e% > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> aw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/li > >>>>>>>>>>>>> stinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 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>>>> >>>>> R%3e>> > >>>> >>>>> R%3e>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3c%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> > >>>>> yahoo.com> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw > >>>>>>>>>> _nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e > >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis91 > >>>>>>>>>> 93% > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 193%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/opt > >>>>>>>>>> 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>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> net.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> %3e> >>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> %3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>> To > >>>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40g > >>>>>>> mai > >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_ > >>>>>>> nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> > >>>>>>> l.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> et.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>>> 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>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>>> com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc. > >>>>> rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>>> .rr.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> BlindLaw: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb > >>>>> .com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BlindLaw >>>> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ > >>>> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> > >>>> mailing list > >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. > >>>> com _______________________________________________ > >>>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> BlindLaw: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co > >>>> m > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> BlindLaw mailing list > >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> BlindLaw: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > >>> il.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BlindLaw mailing list > >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> BlindLaw: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindLaw mailing list > > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 18:56:39 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:56:39 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF5D3@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> <392DF877-A65E-4E9F-910A-FE57DEA5B54E@sbgaal.com> <4319dda1069e4bb39121b5360443cd56@jw.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246D0756@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Yes, and, as I've said before, part of being a baby lawyer **is** taking responsibility for the formatting and more importantly proofreading so that the highers-up with the larger pay rates don't have to. Angie, so to be completely honest I have stopped using Randy's method ever since I found out it isn't 100% accurate. It's possible that word has gotten better at this. But one instance where it would happen frequently would be with internal quotes, marked with apostrophes. The first, opening one would always be facing the wrong way. Laura On 9/25/19, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw wrote: > Angela, I agree about the need to be pragmatic. There’s no point, for > instance, in adopting a categorical approach that one will always format > one’s documents oneself. If that ends up imposing an onerous burden on you > or the firm, time and energy- wise, it would be better, for everyone > involved, to seek help. Being in a position where this becomes a genuine > choice, rather than just the way things always are, however, is crucial. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 25, 2019, at 7:15 PM, Angela Matney wrote: >> >> Rahul, I agree, to a point. I always take whatever steps I can (within >> reason) to format a document correctly, because this is often more >> efficient. Sometimes, however, it is not practical for me to deal with >> certain attributes of the document. Just as other attorneys at my firm >> “outsource” similar work to their assistants or to our Word Processing >> department, I use these resources when I need to do so. I will also ask >> them to reformat documents prepared by others if necessary for >> accessibility-related reasons. >> >> I think we all have to figure out what works best, given the time and >> resources available to us. I like knowing that, if I had to, I could deal >> with most formatting issues independently. But I’m also glad that I do >> occasionally have the option to delegate some of this, just as other >> attorneys in my firm do. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angie >> >> >> >> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> Attorney at Law >> >> Loeb and Loeb LLP >> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files >> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to >> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >> destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or >> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via >> BlindLaw >> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 2:05 PM >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Rahul Bajaj >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> I have often wished that people would clearly tell me what I could >> precisely do, to make the document look better. To the extent I can, I’d >> be very happy to do whatever needs doing. The satisfaction of knowing that >> it is solely your work product outstrips the effort involved in getting it >> right. Before I came back to law school for my postgraduate education, >> when I was working at a law firm, the fact that I always had to get my >> documents formatted by someone used to really irk me. It used to also >> reduce the pace at which I could deliver the work I was assigned. >> >> I will also say that it’s important that the feedback be given in ways >> that are constructive. A partner I was once working for said that he could >> not review at a document that was ‘crooked’ when I turned in my brief for >> his review. >> >> Lastly, I agree that academia also needs to hold blind folks to higher >> standards. A few months ago, I was speaking with two blind friends at >> Oxford who were pursuing the MPhil in Law - a research degree. One of them >> had just received comments on her work. She did not know how to view >> comments. I was really shocked. Both of them did not know how to use quick >> navigation keys, the virtual viewer, etc. More important, they didn’t even >> regard this as a glaring omission. My friend said the keystrokes I was >> telling her were far too many for her to remember and that she’d sit with >> me some other time to go over them. She never reached out to do this. >> >> You cannot solve a problem whose existence you refuse to acknowledge. >> >> Rahul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Sep 25, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Randy, >> > >> > I used to do it this way, until someone told me that sometimes finding >> > and replacing quotes and apostrophes like that causes some of them to >> > face the wrong way. >> > >> > Laura >> > >> >> On 9/25/19, Farber, Randy wrote: >> >> Hello All - I'm a little late to this conversation. I have made it a >> >> habit >> >> to always use smart quotes. This makes it easier to make sure that I >> >> always >> >> have it correct in Word documents. There is a setting in Word to always >> >> use >> >> smart quotes. I have turned on this option. Now whenever I think there >> >> could be a problem with quotes (usually from receiving a document >> >> prepared >> >> by someone else or from copying text from outside Word) all I have to >> >> do is >> >> a search and replace. I search for a quote and replace it with a quote. >> >> Because of the smart quote option all of my quotes are now smart quotes >> >> and >> >> I don't have to check them. This will also work with apostrophes. >> >> >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Laura Wolk >> >> via >> >> BlindLaw >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:46 AM >> >> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> >> Cc: Laura Wolk >> >> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >> >> >> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION** >> >> >> >> They aren't. It's just a visual difference left over from typewriter >> >> days. >> >> >> >>> On 9/24/19, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: >> >>> How are they used differently? >> >>> >> >>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler,PLLC >> >>> 1212 Texas Avenue >> >>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> >>> Phone: (806) 763-3999 >> >>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> >>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> >>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >> >>> NOTICE the information contained in this communication is protected by >> >>> the attorney/client and/or the work/product privileges. It along with >> >>> any attachments here to, is also covered by the Electronic >> >>> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2512. It is >> >>> intended only for the personal and confidential use of the >> >>> recipient(s) named in the communication, and the privileges are not >> >>> waived by virtue of this having been sent by electronic mail. If the >> >>> person actually receiving this communication or any other reader of >> >>> the communication is not the named recipient, any use, dissemination, >> >>> distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. >> >>> If you have received this communication in error, please immediately >> >>> notify us by telephone (please call collect) and delete the original >> >>> from >> >>> your system. >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Sanho, to access the ASCII information, press numpad 5 three times in >> >>>> rapid succession when the cursor is on the quote. >> >>>> >> >>>> As for how we are expected to learn these things … I think the >> >>>> problem is this is one of those things that is so obvious to sighted >> >>>> people that it might never get discussed verbally. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think maybe we all, especially those of us without visual memories, >> >>>> have a number of these little “holes” in how we perceive the world. >> >>>> Many of them get corrected while we are pretty young. >> >>>> >> >>>> I remember once when I was pretty little, and my younger brother and >> >>>> sister told me I had watermelon juice on my hands and face. I asked >> >>>> them how they knew, and they told me they could see it. “How can you >> >>>> see watermelon juice?” I asked. They didn’t understand why I would >> >>>> ask this question. Eventually, it came out that I thought watermelon >> >>>> juice was clear, like water, because of its name. (Hint: It’s really, >> >>>> really not!) >> >>>> >> >>>> That is an example of a visual thing that no one ever thought to >> >>>> explain to me before that time. I was a little kid when this >> >>>> particular misapprehension on my part was corrected; but the one >> >>>> about quotes didn’t get fixed until I was much older. I told a friend >> >>>> earlier that I thought it might have been while I was in law school, >> >>>> but I actually think I knew there were different quotes before that—I >> >>>> just didn’t realize that sometimes, Word was inserting one, and >> >>>> sometimes >> >>>> the other. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> >> >>>> Angie >> >>>> >> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> >>>> Attorney at Law >> >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >> >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >> >>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >> >>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >> >>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >> >>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >> >>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> >>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >> >>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >> >>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >> >>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >> >>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho >> >>>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:01 PM >> >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> >>>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart >> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >> >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >> >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >> >>>> >> >>>> Sanho >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw >> >>>>> > wrote: >> >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >> >>>>> quotes. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >> >>>>> widest point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents >> >>>>> the quotation mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing >> >>>>> quote. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >> >>>>> but they are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print >> >>>>> letter “C,” >> >>>>> with >> >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of >> >>>>> the enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve >> >>>>> faces to the left. It is almost like they are enclosing the >> >>>>> material. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >> >>>>> opening and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >> >>>>> apostrophes to represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, >> >>>>> but I really don’t see that very often. I don’t think braille has an >> >>>>> equivalent for the straight quote, but someone please jump in and >> >>>>> correct me it I’m wrong. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it >> >>>>> into this email. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Can you tell the difference? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >> >>>>> Attorney at Law >> >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] Loeb and Loeb LLP >> >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 Direct >> >>>>> Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >> >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >> >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >> >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | >> >>>>> www.loeb.com>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >> >>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >> >>>>> files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain >> >>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not >> >>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to >> >>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> >>>>> copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in >> >>>>> or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have >> >>>>> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the >> >>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and its attachments >> >>>>> without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >> >>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>>> From: BlindLaw >> >>>>> > On >> >>>>> Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw >> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >> >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart >> >>>>> quote? >> >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: BlindLaw >> >>>>> > >>>>> to:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> >> >>>>> On Behalf >> >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >> >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >> >>>>> > >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>> Cc: Shannon >> >>>>> > >>>>> :sbg at sbgaal.com>>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sorry Laura, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >> >>>>> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart >> >>>>> quote/apostrophe? >> >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >> >>>>> Thanks! >> >>>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >> >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >> >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >> >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >> >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >> >>>>> E-Mail: >> >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com> >>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material that is >> >>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole >> >>>>> use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution >> >>>>> by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly >> >>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >> >>>>> the sender and delete all copies. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>>> Laura Wolk via BlindLaw >> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >> >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >> >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >> >>>>> understand what you are trying to ask. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >> >>>>> that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in >> >>>>> fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual >> >>>>> quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along >> >>>>> behind and clean up the work. >> >>>>> It >> >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >> >>>>> person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and >> >>>>> over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person >> >>>>> is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to >> >>>>> me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the >> >>>>> superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was >> >>>>> wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. >> >>>>> Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address >> >>>>> it." And then they did give me some feedback. >> >>>>> A >> >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that >> >>>>> his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my >> >>>>> friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it >> >>>>> was the right thing to do. >> >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit >> >>>>> embarrassed. >> >>>>> This >> >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >> >>>>> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed >> >>>>> OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally >> >>>>> doing something that makes your documents look strange." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Laura >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> >>>>> > >>>>> et.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> Laura and all, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding >> >>>>>> employment discrimination. I have planned conversations with a >> >>>>>> couple of attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask >> >>>>>> them for more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list >> >>>>>> to learn more from your perspective. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Warmth, >> >>>>>> Sanho >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> net.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school >> >>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position >> >>>>>>> is ending next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over >> >>>>>>> the last 6 months to find work, I have no employment lined up. >> >>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell >> >>>>>>> someone on a career in law. I think Meredith and James have done >> >>>>>>> an excellent job of giving you all you should consider in looking >> >>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>> go to law school. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >> >>>>>>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box >> >>>>>>> either. >> >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in >> >>>>>>> that area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was >> >>>>>>> wrong. Do not assume that those who practice disability rights law >> >>>>>>> are any less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >> >>>>>>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating >> >>>>>>> folks on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are >> >>>>>>> as capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few >> >>>>>>> ways. My local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other >> >>>>>>> issues, employment discrimination against persons with >> >>>>>>> disabilities in the legal profession. We are trying to provide >> >>>>>>> education to members of the bar on the capacity of lawyers with >> >>>>>>> disabilities in the hopes that this will alleviate some of the >> >>>>>>> underlying causes of employment discrimination. This is done by >> >>>>>>> presenting at meetings of the local bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, >> >>>>>>> and publishing writings like the blog post linked below. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Comm >> >>>>>>> itt >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttps:/www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/7274 >> >>>>>>> 49/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>> ee >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> fbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons >> >>>>>>>> for people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took >> >>>>>>>> the LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >> >>>>>>>> worth. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes >> >>>>>>>> provide a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >> >>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >> >>>>>>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >> >>>>>>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >> >>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >> >>>>>>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >> >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why >> >>>>>>>> is that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect >> >>>>>>>> me to enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an >> >>>>>>>> area related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting >> >>>>>>>> characteristics. >> >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >> >>>>>>>> field of practice. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation >> >>>>>>>> errors. >> >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >> >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >> >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >> >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of >> >>>>>>>>> externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ >> >>>>>>>>> concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my >> >>>>>>>>> four externships during law school in which I was able to >> >>>>>>>>> perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, >> >>>>>>>>> I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work >> >>>>>>>>> they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace >> >>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general >> >>>>>>>>> have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so >> >>>>>>>>> long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no >> >>>>>>>>> problem securing volunteer or community involvement >> >>>>>>>>> opportunities. >> >>>>>>>>> . >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> James, >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law >> >>>>>>>>>> school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I >> >>>>>>>>>> had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how >> >>>>>>>>>> I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed >> >>>>>>>>>> to be under the impression that someone must have helped me >> >>>>>>>>>> with all my schooling. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >> >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I >> >>>>>>>>>> was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a >> >>>>>>>>>> job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as >> >>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make >> >>>>>>>>>> connections. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >> >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >> >>>>>>>>>>> break. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >> >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> > >>>> indlaw at nfbnet.org> >>>> .org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >> >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >> >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >> >>>>>>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >> >>>>>>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >> >>>>>>>>>>>> of my experience. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >> >>>>>>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >> >>>>>>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >> >>>>>>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling >> >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> You >> >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things >> >>>>>>>>>>>> before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in >> >>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for >> >>>>>>>>>>>> people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is >> >>>>>>>>>>>> true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cloud >> >>>>>>>>>>>> employers' >> >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that >> >>>>>>>>>>>> you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge to a long-term, full-time position. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailm >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3 >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for BlindLaw: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdav >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is9 >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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or get your account >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfett >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> er% >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%25%3cBR%3e%3e% >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinf >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >> >>>>>>>>> ak% >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> yak%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> yak%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options >> >>>>>>>>> /blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%25%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR >> >>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> bnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or >> >>>>>>>> g%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>>>> for >> >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193 >> >>>>>>>> %40 >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 3%40%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 3%40%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blind >> >>>>>>>> law_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3 >> >>>>>>>> e%3e> >> >>>>>>>> gmail.com >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> net.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> %3e>> >>>>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> %3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>> To >> >>>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40g >> >>>>>>> mai >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_ >> >>>>>>> nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>>> l.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> et.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e% >> >>>>>> 3e%3e> >> >>>>>> To >> >>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40 >> >>>>>> gma >> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 0gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3chttp:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbn >> >>>>>> et.org/laura.wolk%40gma%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e> >> >>>>>> il.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.c >> >>>>> om >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>>> com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc. >> >>>>> rr.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>>> .rr.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org> >>>>> t.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb >> >>>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> BlindLaw> >>>> y%40loeb.com%3cBR%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3cBR%3e______________________________ >> >>>> _________________%3cBR%3eBlindLaw> >> >>>> mailing list >> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb. >> >>>> com _______________________________________________ >> >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> BlindLaw: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.co >> >>>> m >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> BlindLaw mailing list >> >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> BlindLaw: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> >>> il.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> BlindLaw mailing list >> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> BlindLaw: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > BlindLaw mailing list >> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > BlindLaw: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From laura.wolk at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 18:58:49 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:58:49 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Using Trackchanges, strikethrough, and redline in word? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seif, There are extensive threads in the archives on this topic. I'd start by searching there. Long story short: If you want anything remotely approaching a satisfying experience with track changes, you need to upgrade to the latest version of Jaws. Laura On 9/25/19, Seif-Eldeen Saqallah via BlindLaw wrote: > Hello all, > > Since formatting threads are going around, I would love any advice on > using word's trackchanges, redlining, and strikethough features with > JAWS(2018). > Generally, I have been putting things in brackets close to the text to > which they refer [like these] and bolding them for my sighted peers. > This would be especially helpful in the transactional drafting context. > > Sincerely, > Seif > > > > -- > Seif Saqallah > University of Michigan > Juris Doctor/ > Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies > J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 > > International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; > Law, Justice, and Social Change > B.A | 2017 > > 248-325-7091 > seifs at umich.edu > > Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic > University of Michigan Law School > 3120 Jeffries Hall > 701 South State Street > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 > www.law.umich.edu/ITC > > The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is > confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not > the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, > please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this > communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including > attachments, if any). > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From tim at timeldermusic.com Wed Sep 25 19:52:31 2019 From: tim at timeldermusic.com (tim at timeldermusic.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:52:31 -0700 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <01d701d573da$c4d3d760$4e7b8620$@timeldermusic.com> Two thoughts on this: first, plenty of respected lawyers struggle with proofing and formatting and do rely on less expensive staff to carefully resolve such issues. Second, less forgiveness is given to new lawyers and they ought to have someone in their life who can give brutally honest feedback about their work product appearance so they can train themselves to minimize common problems. Generating templates and knowing what to look for makes a big difference. This is harder in collaborative environments. IN addition, the expectation is probably shifting as younger lawyers are assumed to be more familiar with technology as a core competency. I've worked with a very successful sighted lawyer who bills well over $1000 per hour and still dictates all his emails to an assistant because his typing is painfully slow. The digital divide is real regardless of disability. -----Original Message----- From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:40 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Shannon Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >> that leads to employment discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >> ee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>> supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>> of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com From NSingh at cov.com Wed Sep 25 22:19:53 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 22:19:53 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <01d701d573da$c4d3d760$4e7b8620$@timeldermusic.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <01d701d573da$c4d3d760$4e7b8620$@timeldermusic.com> Message-ID: <3f3ef1d686e7404b90358c2594683f70@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> And let us not forget that one day, when you have the stature, something like an ex-chair of the firm on retired partner status or an associate dean at a fancy law school, you may draft emails with your own individualized application of punctuation and capitalization! Personally, I would just love it if some luminary brought back the rhetorical question mark or the interrobang, which is already having a bit of a moment. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:53 PM To: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination [EXTERNAL] Two thoughts on this: first, plenty of respected lawyers struggle with proofing and formatting and do rely on less expensive staff to carefully resolve such issues. Second, less forgiveness is given to new lawyers and they ought to have someone in their life who can give brutally honest feedback about their work product appearance so they can train themselves to minimize common problems. Generating templates and knowing what to look for makes a big difference. This is harder in collaborative environments. IN addition, the expectation is probably shifting as younger lawyers are assumed to be more familiar with technology as a core competency. I've worked with a very successful sighted lawyer who bills well over $1000 per hour and still dictates all his emails to an assistant because his typing is painfully slow. The digital divide is real regardless of disability. -----Original Message----- From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:40 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? Ray Wayne, New York City -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: Shannon Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Sorry Laura, Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. Thanks! Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office: (806) 763-3999 Mobile: (806) 781-9296 Fax: (806) 749-3752 E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Laura Wolk Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask. As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." Laura On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: > Laura and all, > > Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment > discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of > attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more > information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more > from your perspective. > > Warmth, > Sanho > > > On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >> >> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >> that leads to employment discrimination. >> >> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >> post linked below. >> >> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >> ee >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>> >>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>> >>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>> supports that fear. >>> >>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>> of practice. >>> >>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>> >>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>> >>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice? >>>> >>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling. >>>>> >>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>> >>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. >>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From sanho817 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 00:30:50 2019 From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 19:30:50 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: <3f3ef1d686e7404b90358c2594683f70@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <01d701d573da$c4d3d760$4e7b8620$@timeldermusic.com> <3f3ef1d686e7404b90358c2594683f70@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> Message-ID: All, So, I'll be "that guy." How do you access comments/track changes in Word? Warmth, Sanho On 9/25/19, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw wrote: > And let us not forget that one day, when you have the stature, something > like an ex-chair of the firm on retired partner status or an associate dean > at a fancy law school, you may draft emails with your own individualized > application of punctuation and capitalization! Personally, I would just love > it if some luminary brought back the rhetorical question mark or the > interrobang, which is already having a bit of a moment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder via > BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:53 PM > To: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > [EXTERNAL] > > Two thoughts on this: first, plenty of respected lawyers struggle with > proofing and formatting and do rely on less expensive staff to carefully > resolve such issues. Second, less forgiveness is given to new lawyers and > they ought to have someone in their life who can give brutally honest > feedback about their work product appearance so they can train themselves to > minimize common problems. > > Generating templates and knowing what to look for makes a big difference. > This is harder in collaborative environments. IN addition, the expectation > is probably shifting as younger lawyers are assumed to be more familiar with > technology as a core competency. I've worked with a very successful sighted > lawyer who bills well over $1000 per hour and still dictates all his emails > to an assistant because his typing is painfully slow. The digital divide is > real regardless of disability. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:40 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > Ray Wayne, New York City > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Shannon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Sorry Laura, > > Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was > regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart > quote/apostrophe? > I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > Thanks! > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk > via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand > what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we > have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind > attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms > or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It > happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person > continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and > the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as > the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had > conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind > specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said > "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to > figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. > A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his > emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to > say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to > do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. > This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft > skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to > tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something > that makes your documents look strange." > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura and all, >> >> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >> from your perspective. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>> >>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>> post linked below. >>> >>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>> ee >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>> >>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>> >>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>> supports that fear. >>>> >>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>> of practice. >>>> >>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>> >>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>> >>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>> practice? >>>>> >>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>> schooling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school >>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual >>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com > From NSingh at cov.com Thu Sep 26 01:31:53 2019 From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 01:31:53 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <01d701d573da$c4d3d760$4e7b8620$@timeldermusic.com> <3f3ef1d686e7404b90358c2594683f70@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> Message-ID: <5c83c6b3a6fb46d5b59f29d5c2ce5655@CBIvEX02eUS.cov.com> This is a pretty major topic. Perhaps the most important concept is the virtual viewer and the fact that negotiating revisions with JAWS is a technological work in progress dependent on the coding skills of Freedom Scientific and the attending cooperation of Microsoft. To get you basic exposure, perform a Windows key-semi colon in Word. This brings up the virtual viewer where you are presented four options: comments, footnotes, endnotes, and revisions (or track changes). Selecting one of these will give you the number of occurrences of that item in your document in addition to a list that provides you the index number accompanied by the text of the comment or whatever else. The index number is a link that you can activate to arrive at the actual location of the comment or whatever else in the main part of the document. Obviously, using the virtual viewer is pointless sans any comments or revisions in your document. This is just a brief introduction to the topic. I have not gone into replying to comments, changing the font of footnotes, deleting endnotes, or accepting a revision--all eminently feasible. I strongly urge you to locate the various free JAWS tutorials put out by Freedom or third parties concerning Word. You may also consult JAWS' native help file on Word and the relevant keystrokes you will need. Complete those tutorials. Lawyers spend many hours on Word, so it is an application that you should know well. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 8:31 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination [EXTERNAL] All, So, I'll be "that guy." How do you access comments/track changes in Word? Warmth, Sanho On 9/25/19, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw wrote: > And let us not forget that one day, when you have the stature, > something like an ex-chair of the firm on retired partner status or an > associate dean at a fancy law school, you may draft emails with your > own individualized application of punctuation and capitalization! > Personally, I would just love it if some luminary brought back the > rhetorical question mark or the interrobang, which is already having a bit of a moment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Tim Elder > via BlindLaw > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:53 PM > To: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > [EXTERNAL] > > Two thoughts on this: first, plenty of respected lawyers struggle with > proofing and formatting and do rely on less expensive staff to > carefully resolve such issues. Second, less forgiveness is given to > new lawyers and they ought to have someone in their life who can give > brutally honest feedback about their work product appearance so they > can train themselves to minimize common problems. > > Generating templates and knowing what to look for makes a big difference. > This is harder in collaborative environments. IN addition, the > expectation is probably shifting as younger lawyers are assumed to be > more familiar with technology as a core competency. I've worked with > a very successful sighted lawyer who bills well over $1000 per hour > and still dictates all his emails to an assistant because his typing > is painfully slow. The digital divide is real regardless of disability. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:40 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? > Ray Wayne, New York City > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Shannon via > BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM > To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: Shannon > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Sorry Laura, > > Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was > regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart > quote/apostrophe? > I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. > Thanks! > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged > and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended > recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or > forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura > Wolk via BlindLaw > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Laura Wolk > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination > > Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite > understand what you are trying to ask. > > As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is > that we have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, > blind attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, > whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and > clean up the work. It happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, > as Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of the errors > they make over and over again, and the people continue to believe that > the blind person is not as capable as the rest of their peers. This > has happened to me also. I have even had conversations where I > initially pressed the superior to give me blind specific feedback, > they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very > important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. > A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that > his emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend > not to say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the > right thing to do. Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. > This is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the > soft skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is > indeed OK to tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are > occasionally doing something that makes your documents look strange." > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw wrote: >> Laura and all, >> >> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for >> more information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn >> more from your perspective. >> >> Warmth, >> Sanho >> >> >> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending >>> next Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 >>> months to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat >>> jokingly) I’m far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a >>> career in law. I think Meredith and James have done an excellent job >>> of giving you all you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>> >>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>> in law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any >>> less susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of >>> understanding that leads to employment discrimination. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>> post linked below. >>> >>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Commit >>> t >>> ee >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>> >>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide >>>> a majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>> >>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that >>>> someone will see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my >>>> professors have independently decided to be generous and grant >>>> grades which I do not deserve. This is of course irrational but >>>> still what I’m hearing supports that fear. >>>> >>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area >>>> related to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>> field of practice. >>>> >>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>> >>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>> 716-563-9882 >>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>> >>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive >>>>> in practice? >>>>> >>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> James, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a >>>>>> degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got >>>>>> those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be >>>>>> under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>> schooling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. >>>>>> When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone >>>>>> they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>> school as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>> think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light >>>>>>>> of my experience. >>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>> which is still extremely important by the way, with all the >>>>>>>> things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking >>>>>>>> depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing >>>>>>>> counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence >>>>>>>> with any kind of visual aspect to it. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis >>>>>>>>>> 9 >>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutn >>>>>>>> y >>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> n >>>>>>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40 >>>>>>> y >>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> 0 >>>>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193 >>>>>> % >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak >>>>> % >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%4 >>>> 0 >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gma >>> i >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gm >> a >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 01:32:34 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 02:32:34 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Laura Is absolutely right below. What we have to realise is that most clients are, sadly, in no position to evaluate the quality of their lawyers' work/advice. They often judge, to some extent, based on the presentation of your work and that presentation is visual. The only time I ever had an issue about something I produced at work, it was not the content of the email but its formatting that was in issue. I hate to admit it but those who made a point about that were doing me a big favour. Laura, I'd be very grateful for any more tips on formatting etc. I'd be interested in your various anicdotes, the cogency of which I don't doubt but they are not directly relevant to me in my jurisdiction and at my stage of practice. Through pure look and the help of some pretty enlightened people in the profession, my own experience has been very different to those described here but I have to say I am saddened but not altogether surprised by what is described here. Kind regards Ger On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an > interview. Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list > to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential > discrimination. > > But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again, > it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be > able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view > as well as in substance. And I don't think we do this or focus on > this nearly enough. I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal > formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not > surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy > for how good the employee will b. I'm also not terribly surprised > when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school > exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate > is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work. Compile > excerpts of record. Read handwritten filings. Cite check. Proofread > and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time > a partner mistypes something. Yes, we can clearly do all of these > things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control. But the > point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than > writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and > those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school > grades. And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out > ways to anticipate and address it. Because if a hiring partner > doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things > that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether > unreasonable to opt not to hire that person. Our job is to show them > through example and education that those beliefs are false. I firmly > believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle > depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing > the hiring. Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list, > but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've > had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know. > > I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop. How to bluebook > (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook." You > might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at > all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you > and fixing your mistakes. This happens, trust me. Other agenda items > might include "Common formatting errors ." Do you 1. Know the > difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how > to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's > uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as > justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in > footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same > changes? 4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and > widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them? > I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but > many, many people do not. I believe so sincerely, after talking to > everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to > lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make > others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring > us. I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken, > without these skills. > > End rant, and back to work I go. > > Laura > > > On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw wrote: >> James, >> >> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being >> seen >> as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I >> was >> asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical >> book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped >> me with all my schooling. >> >> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys >> when >> they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first >> out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other >> attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is >> easier >> to make connections. >> >> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it >> would >> be before entering the profession. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Meredith Ballard >> >>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Maura Kutnyak >>> 716-563-9882 >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, >>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look >>>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an >>>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, >>>> and >>>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many >>>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still >>>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school >>>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious >>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, >>>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have >>>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as >>>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are >>>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out >>>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears >>>> cloud >>>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given >>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>> still >>>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for >>>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time >>>> position. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when >>>>> I >>>>> was first licensed. >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so >>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 01:57:19 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 02:57:19 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Laura I must say, I think the appropriate course for your under-graduate Professors to have followed would have been to: 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would presumably effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate impact on your future); and 2. To tell you they were doing so and why and explain the issues with content. Kind regards Ger On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad > with these errors. I was judged based on the "substance," because > that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In fact, it wasn't. > Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with > drafting something for a client. This is why I really think this is > in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to > need to put in to make her work look presentable? > > And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to tell. And they > see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix > this... No harm, no foul. > > My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on > for highlighting. I never really thought about highlighting. But > people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in > when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date. So > although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow. My > assistant was just changing everything. After I had yet another > uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was > helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me > she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future. > > Laura > > On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk wrote: >> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value >> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >> >> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >> for you. >> >> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, >> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >> wrote: >>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>> >>> Sanho >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>> quotes. >>>> >>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>> widest >>>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>>> quotation >>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>>> >>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but >>>> they >>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>>> with >>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to >>>> the >>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>>> >>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>> opening >>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes >>>> to >>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t >>>> see >>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>>> straight >>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>> >>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>> >>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>>> this >>>> email. >>>> >>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>> Attorney at Law >>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>> files >>>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>>> to >>>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>>> destroy >>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving >>>> in >>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via >>>> BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote? >>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw >>>> > On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> > >>>> Cc: Shannon > >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Sorry Laura, >>>> >>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>> regarding >>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>> >>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>> Wolk >>>> via BlindLaw >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>> >>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>> understand >>>> what you are trying to ask. >>>> >>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>> that >>>> we >>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>>> firms >>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. >>>> It >>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person >>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, >>>> and >>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>>> as >>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said >>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>>> feedback. >>>> A >>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to >>>> say >>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>>> do. >>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>> This >>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills >>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell >>>> a >>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>>> that >>>> makes your documents look strange." >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>> > wrote: >>>>> Laura and all, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more >>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>> from your perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Warmth, >>>>> Sanho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next >>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all >>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in >>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less >>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>> >>>>>> ee >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a >>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon >>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not >>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related >>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field >>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors. >>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in >>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree >>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When >>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think >>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which >>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutny >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ak%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>> yak%40gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>><%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> To unsubscribe, change your list >>>>>>>>>> options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To >>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai >>>>>> >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gma >>>>> >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/amatney%40loeb.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 02:44:30 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 03:44:30 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions Message-ID: Hello all In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of formatting etc. I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how accessible it would be? Thoughts welcome. Kind regards Ger From mmaurer at nfb.org Thu Sep 26 10:46:57 2019 From: mmaurer at nfb.org (Maurer, Marc) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 10:46:57 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello all > > In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it > might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in > creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is > a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I > have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help > me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of > formatting etc. > > I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can > collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how > accessible it would be? > > Thoughts welcome. > > Kind regards > > Ger > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org > I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. mm Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 11:20:25 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:20:25 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> Message-ID: <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I brought it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think my list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure there are things I'm missing too. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> Hello all >> >> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >> formatting etc. >> >> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >> accessible it would be? >> >> Thoughts welcome. >> >> Kind regards >> >> Ger >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. mm > > Disclaimer > > The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com From jtfetter at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 12:23:54 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James T. Fetter) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:23:54 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would love to participate in this effort. I do not have a checklist as such, although I probably should. I do, however, make heavy use of Jaws sound schemes and increasingly now of various features in NVDA, in light of the persistent stability issues with Jaws. I would love to see this culminate in a presentation at the NABL annual meeting and ideally in a document posted somewhere on the web, so that anyone could find it without looking through list archives. I think it makes sense to do what we did with the track changes issue (i.e. gather a list of people interested in participating and start working collaboratively on this off this list). Otherwise, this list will get a ton of traffic. If you would like to be part of this effort, please email me off list at jtfetter at yahoo.com. This shouldn't all be on Laura, and I'm happy to do my part. On 9/26/2019 7:20 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I brought it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think my list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure there are things I'm missing too. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw wrote: >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: >>> >>> Hello all >>> >>> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >>> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >>> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >>> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >>> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >>> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >>> formatting etc. >>> >>> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >>> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >>> accessible it would be? >>> >>> Thoughts welcome. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> Ger >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >>> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. mm >> Disclaimer >> >> The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. >> >> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From davant1958 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 12:38:28 2019 From: davant1958 at gmail.com (davant1958 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:38:28 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: Senior Attorney job announcement In-Reply-To: <548184a89cd99836da15f4848.ab91b6a2b6.20190926122922.6a0481ab22.581e8568@mail48.suw91.mcdlv.net> References: <548184a89cd99836da15f4848.ab91b6a2b6.20190926122922.6a0481ab22.581e8568@mail48.suw91.mcdlv.net> Message-ID: <036301d57467$4cf29f00$e6d7dd00$@gmail.com> Denise R. Avant, Esq. President, National Federation of the Blind of Illinois 773-991-8050 Live the life you want. For more information about NFBI, Go to www.nfbofillinois.org From: ABA Center on Children and the Law Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:30 AM To: Davant1958 at gmail.com Subject: Senior Attorney job announcement View this email in your browser We’re growing our State Projects team! We are seeking to fill a new, full-time, Senior Attorney position in our State Projects area. The Senior Attorney will facilitate meetings with multiple child welfare stakeholders, as well as speak and provide training and technical assistance on substantive child welfare law topics to include safety, permanency and well-being, legal representation, education, and kinship. The position requires a JD, admission to the bar, and at least 8 years working in the relevant specialized area of law. More Details Apply Now! About the Center on Children and the Law You are receiving this message because you previously subscribed to Center communications or because of your relationship with the Center. To be removed from the mailing list, or to add others, please email joanne.correira at americanbar.org ABA Center on Children and the Law 1050 Connecticut Avenue, Suite 400, Washington, DC 20036 www.americanbar.org /child, 202/662-1724 Want to change how you receive these emails? Update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. From laura.wolk at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 15:35:39 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:35:39 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a presentation of some kind. Laura On 9/26/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: > I would love to participate in this effort. I do not have a checklist as > such, although I probably should. I do, however, make heavy use of Jaws > sound schemes and increasingly now of various features in NVDA, in light > of the persistent stability issues with Jaws. I would love to see this > culminate in a presentation at the NABL annual meeting and ideally in a > document posted somewhere on the web, so that anyone could find it > without looking through list archives. I think it makes sense to do what > we did with the track changes issue (i.e. gather a list of people > interested in participating and start working collaboratively on this > off this list). Otherwise, this list will get a ton of traffic. > > If you would like to be part of this effort, please email me off list at > jtfetter at yahoo.com. This shouldn't all be on Laura, and I'm happy to do > my part. > > > On 9/26/2019 7:20 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot >> of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I brought >> it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit >> any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've >> customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and >> find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think my >> list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure there >> are things I'm missing too. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello all >>>> >>>> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >>>> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >>>> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >>>> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >>>> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >>>> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >>>> formatting etc. >>>> >>>> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >>>> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >>>> accessible it would be? >>>> >>>> Thoughts welcome. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> >>>> Ger >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >>>> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that I >>>> have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. >>>> mm >>> Disclaimer >>> >>> The information contained in this communication from the sender is >>> confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others >>> authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby >>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in >>> relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and >>> may be unlawful. >>> >>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been >>> automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a >>> Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for >>> your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and >>> compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Sep 26 18:35:56 2019 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:35:56 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] Federal Communications Commission Disability Rights Office vacancy Message-ID: From: The Disability Discussion Docket (3D) <3D at MAIL.AMERICANBAR.ORG> On Behalf Of Suzy Rosen Singleton Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 9:58 AM To: 3D at MAIL.AMERICANBAR.ORG Subject: Re: [ABA-3D] Federal Communications Commission Disability Rights Office vacancy The Federal Communications Commission invites applications for an attorney vacancy in its Disability Rights Office of the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau - please see the link for more information. The application period opened yesterday, and will close on October 7. Link: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/546649500 ______________________________________ Thank you for your continued interest in this list. To unsubscribe, email 3D-UNSUBSCRIBE-request at mail.americanbar.org. If you have any issues, contact the ABA staff list owner(s) via email: 3D-request at mail.americanbar.org. ______________________________________ The purpose of this discussion is to enable individuals to share and exchange their personal views on topics and issues of importance to the legal profession. All comments that appear are solely those of the individual, and do not reflect ABA positions or policy. The ABA endorses no comments made herein. From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 21:37:49 2019 From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 22:37:49 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> Message-ID: James, Laura Thank you both. Please include me. I think having a document on the internet somewhere is a good idea, it may even be worth updating it from time to time, since sadly technology won't stand still. I'm not sure how much I will have to add but will do my best. Kind regards Ger On 9/26/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my > check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very > much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a > presentation of some kind. > > Laura > > On 9/26/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> I would love to participate in this effort. I do not have a checklist as >> such, although I probably should. I do, however, make heavy use of Jaws >> sound schemes and increasingly now of various features in NVDA, in light >> of the persistent stability issues with Jaws. I would love to see this >> culminate in a presentation at the NABL annual meeting and ideally in a >> document posted somewhere on the web, so that anyone could find it >> without looking through list archives. I think it makes sense to do what >> we did with the track changes issue (i.e. gather a list of people >> interested in participating and start working collaboratively on this >> off this list). Otherwise, this list will get a ton of traffic. >> >> If you would like to be part of this effort, please email me off list at >> jtfetter at yahoo.com. This shouldn't all be on Laura, and I'm happy to do >> my part. >> >> >> On 9/26/2019 7:20 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot >>> of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I >>> brought >>> it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit >>> any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've >>> customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and >>> find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think >>> my >>> list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure >>> there >>> are things I'm missing too. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello all >>>>> >>>>> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >>>>> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >>>>> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >>>>> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >>>>> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >>>>> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >>>>> formatting etc. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >>>>> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >>>>> accessible it would be? >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> >>>>> Ger >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >>>>> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that >>>>> I >>>>> have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. >>>>> mm >>>> Disclaimer >>>> >>>> The information contained in this communication from the sender is >>>> confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others >>>> authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby >>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in >>>> relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and >>>> may be unlawful. >>>> >>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been >>>> automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a >>>> Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place >>>> for >>>> your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and >>>> compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com > From sbg at sbgaal.com Thu Sep 26 23:03:19 2019 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:03:19 -0500 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> <014477A2-E0CD-421C-9C4D-86071773A40D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501d574be$96f0cf30$c4d26d90$@sbgaal.com> Please include me as well. Thanks! Shannon Sincerely, Shannon Brady Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1212 Texas Avenue Lubbock, Texas 79401 Office:  (806) 763-3999 Mobile:  (806) 781-9296 Fax:  (806) 749-3752 E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 4:38 PM To: Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Gerard Sadlier Subject: Re: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions James, Laura Thank you both. Please include me. I think having a document on the internet somewhere is a good idea, it may even be worth updating it from time to time, since sadly technology won't stand still. I'm not sure how much I will have to add but will do my best. Kind regards Ger On 9/26/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: > Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my > check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very > much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a > presentation of some kind. > > Laura > > On 9/26/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >> I would love to participate in this effort. I do not have a checklist as >> such, although I probably should. I do, however, make heavy use of Jaws >> sound schemes and increasingly now of various features in NVDA, in light >> of the persistent stability issues with Jaws. I would love to see this >> culminate in a presentation at the NABL annual meeting and ideally in a >> document posted somewhere on the web, so that anyone could find it >> without looking through list archives. I think it makes sense to do what >> we did with the track changes issue (i.e. gather a list of people >> interested in participating and start working collaboratively on this >> off this list). Otherwise, this list will get a ton of traffic. >> >> If you would like to be part of this effort, please email me off list at >> jtfetter at yahoo.com. This shouldn't all be on Laura, and I'm happy to do >> my part. >> >> >> On 9/26/2019 7:20 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot >>> of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I >>> brought >>> it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit >>> any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've >>> customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and >>> find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think >>> my >>> list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure >>> there >>> are things I'm missing too. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello all >>>>> >>>>> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >>>>> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >>>>> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >>>>> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >>>>> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >>>>> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >>>>> formatting etc. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >>>>> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >>>>> accessible it would be? >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> >>>>> Ger >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >>>>> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that >>>>> I >>>>> have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. >>>>> mm >>>> Disclaimer >>>> >>>> The information contained in this communication from the sender is >>>> confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others >>>> authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby >>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in >>>> relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and >>>> may be unlawful. >>>> >>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been >>>> automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a >>>> Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place >>>> for >>>> your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and >>>> compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail .com > _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From howardadelsberg at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 23:19:25 2019 From: howardadelsberg at gmail.com (Howard Adelsberg) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:19:25 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: <001501d574be$96f0cf30$c4d26d90$@sbgaal.com> References: <001501d574be$96f0cf30$c4d26d90$@sbgaal.com> Message-ID: <12903C50-E632-4D1B-B51D-6CB02B4188E9@gmail.com> Me too > On Sep 26, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Shannon via BlindLaw wrote: > > Please include me as well. > > Thanks! > > Shannon > > Sincerely, > > Shannon Brady Geihsler > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1212 Texas Avenue > Lubbock, Texas 79401 > Office: (806) 763-3999 > Mobile: (806) 781-9296 > Fax: (806) 749-3752 > E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerard > Sadlier via BlindLaw > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 4:38 PM > To: Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Gerard Sadlier > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions > > James, Laura > > Thank you both. Please include me. I think having a document on the > internet somewhere is a good idea, it may even be worth updating it > from time to time, since sadly technology won't stand still. > > I'm not sure how much I will have to add but will do my best. > > Kind regards > > Ger > >> On 9/26/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my >> check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very >> much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a >> presentation of some kind. >> >> Laura >> >>> On 9/26/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw wrote: >>> I would love to participate in this effort. I do not have a checklist as >>> such, although I probably should. I do, however, make heavy use of Jaws >>> sound schemes and increasingly now of various features in NVDA, in light >>> of the persistent stability issues with Jaws. I would love to see this >>> culminate in a presentation at the NABL annual meeting and ideally in a >>> document posted somewhere on the web, so that anyone could find it >>> without looking through list archives. I think it makes sense to do what >>> we did with the track changes issue (i.e. gather a list of people >>> interested in participating and start working collaboratively on this >>> off this list). Otherwise, this list will get a ton of traffic. >>> >>> If you would like to be part of this effort, please email me off list at >>> jtfetter at yahoo.com. This shouldn't all be on Laura, and I'm happy to do >>> my part. >>> >>> >>> On 9/26/2019 7:20 AM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >>>> I have proposed this idea in the past. The first time, there was a lot >>>> of generated interest, and then nothing came of it, which is why I >>>> brought >>>> it up again now. I have a checklist of things that I do before I submit >>>> any document that I am happy to share. I'm also happy to share how I've >>>> customized word. That being said, I'm also A Braille reader and user and >>>> find Braille absolutely indispensable in this regard, so I don't think >>>> my >>>> list would be a one stop shop for everyone. And of course, I'm sure >>>> there >>>> are things I'm missing too. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello all >>>>>> >>>>>> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >>>>>> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >>>>>> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >>>>>> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >>>>>> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >>>>>> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >>>>>> formatting etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >>>>>> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >>>>>> accessible it would be? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thoughts welcome. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Ger >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org >>>>>> I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that >>>>>> I >>>>>> have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. >>>>>> mm >>>>> Disclaimer >>>>> >>>>> The information contained in this communication from the sender is >>>>> confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others >>>>> authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby >>>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in >>>>> relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and >>>>> may be unlawful. >>>>> >>>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been >>>>> automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a >>>>> Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place >>>>> for >>>>> your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and >>>>> compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> BlindLaw: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindLaw mailing list >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> BlindLaw: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laura.wolk%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindLaw: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail > .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/howard.adelsberg%40gmail.com From mmaurer at nfb.org Fri Sep 27 12:32:19 2019 From: mmaurer at nfb.org (Maurer, Marc) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 12:32:19 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> Message-ID: I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the thought. mm > On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hello all > > In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it > might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in > creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is > a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I > have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help > me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of > formatting etc. > > I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can > collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how > accessible it would be? > > Thoughts welcome. > > Kind regards > > Ger > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org. > org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org. > org I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect > that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the > thought. mm Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. _______________________________________________ BlindLaw mailing list BlindLaw at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. From seifs at umich.edu Fri Sep 27 14:10:49 2019 From: seifs at umich.edu (Seif-Eldeen Saqallah) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: <810CAFAD-C2FC-47DD-8CAE-D6A8C9F7CED8@nfb.org> Message-ID: Same here: I am interested, but do not know what I can contribute (I am a student, not yet practicing). Sincerely, Seif On 9/27/19, Maurer, Marc via BlindLaw wrote: > I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect > that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the > thought. > mm > > >> On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw >> wrote: >> >> Hello all >> >> In the previous thread on discrimination, someone suggested that it >> might be worthwhile to compile a list of traps that we face in >> creating documents etc. as blind people and solutions. I think this is >> a really good idea and I'd like to be involved in doing this. I hope I >> have a few pointers to offer and equally I hope doing this will help >> me to learn and encourage me to up my game in certain aspects of >> formatting etc. >> >> I wonder who'd be interested in joining and how best we can >> collaborate? I'm thinking Google Docs or similar but amn't sure how >> accessible it would be? >> >> Thoughts welcome. >> >> Kind regards >> >> Ger >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindLaw mailing list >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org. >> org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for BlindLaw: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org. >> org I would plan to be a lurker on this discussion because I suspect >> that I have much more to learn than to teach. However, I applaud the >> thought. mm > > Disclaimer > > The information contained in this communication from the sender is > confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others > authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby > notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in > relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may > be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been > automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a > Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for > your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and > compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mmaurer at nfb.org > > Disclaimer > > The information contained in this communication from the sender is > confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others > authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby > notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in > relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may > be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been > automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a > Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for > your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and > compliance. To find out more visit the Mimecast website. > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu > -- Seif Saqallah University of Michigan Juris Doctor/ Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 248-325-7091 seifs at umich.edu Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of Michigan Law School 3120 Jeffries Hall 701 South State Street Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 www.law.umich.edu/ITC The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including attachments, if any). From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 15:09:48 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:09:48 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Fwd: Federal Communications Commission Disability Rights Office vacancy In-Reply-To: References: <644B3B1C-BC63-469C-8C82-AF418F20B40D@americanbar.org> Message-ID: <007201d57545$9b46f690$d1d4e3b0$@labarrelaw.com> From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Lydia X. Z. Brown Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:52 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Fwd: Federal Communications Commission Disability Rights Office vacancy ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Suzy Rosen Singleton <2suzyrs at gmail.com > Date: Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Federal Communications Commission Disability Rights Office vacancy To: <3D at mail.americanbar.org > The Federal Communications Commission invites applications for an attorney vacancy in its Disability Rights Office of the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau - please see the link for more information. The application period opened yesterday, and will close on October 7. Link: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/546649500 ______________________________________ The purpose of this discussion is to enable individuals to share and exchange their personal views on topics and issues of importance to the legal profession. All comments that appear are solely those of the individual, and do not reflect ABA positions or policy. The ABA endorses no comments made herein. ᐧ REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 15:10:51 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:10:51 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Fwd: FW: [All-staff] MWLS hiring DBP/Benefits Attorney In-Reply-To: References: <006a01d56fee$083fdbc0$18bf9340$@dlc-ma.org> Message-ID: <007701d57545$c062eec0$4128cc40$@labarrelaw.com> Note that the application period closes today. From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Lydia X. Z. Brown Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:48 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Fwd: FW: [All-staff] MWLS hiring DBP/Benefits Attorney From: Elizabeth A. Soule [mailto:BSoule at mwlegal.org ] Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 9:44 AM To: 'all-staff at masslawlists.org ' > Subject: [All-staff] MWLS hiring DBP/Benefits Attorney STAFF ATTORNEY MetroWest Legal Services seeks a full time staff attorney to provide representation at administrative hearings and in court to persons with disabilities seeking SSI and/or SSDI benefits; and in other government benefits cases including unemployment, cash assistance, MassHealth, and food stamps. Responsibilities include direct client representation as well as community education and outreach. 1-3 years of experience preferred. Applicants should have a demonstrated experience working in the public interest or legal aid environment, be passionate about achieving justice and overcoming barriers facing low-income clients, and be a creative team-player committed to securing lasting results for clients and low-income communities. Ability to speak Spanish or Portuguese helpful. Please send a cover letter and resume by September 27,2019 to bsoule at mwlegal.org or by mail to: MetroWest Legal Services 63 Fountain Street, Suite 304 Framingham, MA 01702 Attn: Benefits Attorney Search MWLS is an Equal Opportunity Employer and strives to ensure that our staff members reflect the diversity of the communities we serve. MWLS encourages applicants from a broad range of backgrounds and experiences. Elizabeth A. Soule Executive Director BSoule at mwlegal.org Tel. 508.620.1830 x230 Fax. 508.620.2323 www.mwlegal.org 63 Fountain Street Suite 304 Framingham MA 01702 NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY: The information contained in this email including all attachments, is attorney privileged and confidential, intended solely for the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient designated above, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, or reproduction of this electronic communication or any of its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone. Thank you. ᐧ REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 14227 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ All-staff mailing list -- all-staff at masslawlists.org To unsubscribe send an email to all-staff-leave at masslawlists.org REMINDER: The DRBA and BBI are the hosts of this listserv and are not responsible for the content of member posts. The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 15:11:19 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:11:19 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Fwd: FW: [All-staff] MLRI is Hiring! 2 Staff Attorney Positions: Benefits & Health In-Reply-To: References: <013501d56f26$3cba7270$b62f5750$@dlc-ma.org> Message-ID: <007e01d57545$d1622100$74266300$@labarrelaw.com> From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Lydia X. Z. Brown Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:47 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Fwd: FW: [All-staff] MLRI is Hiring! 2 Staff Attorney Positions: Benefits & Health From: Georgia Katsoulomitis [mailto:gkatsoulomitis at mlri.org ] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 8:55 AM To: all-staff at masslawlists.org Subject: [All-staff] MLRI is Hiring! 2 Staff Attorney Positions: Benefits & Health Dear colleagues, MLRI is currently seeking to hire 2 staff attorneys to expand our work in the critical poverty law areas of 1) public benefits (TANF, child care, SNAP etc.) and 2) health law & policy. Please share these opportunities with your networks. Interviews will be conducted on a rolling basis; we encourage applicants with the appropriate experience and qualifications to apply promptly. Thank you & warmest regards, Georgia -- Georgia D. Katsoulomitis Executive Director Massachusetts Law Reform Institute (MLRI) 40 Court Street, Suite 800 Boston, MA 02108 617-357-0700 x314 (office-direct) 617-357-0777 (fax) GKatsoulomitis at mlri.org www.mlri.org This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ᐧ REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ All-staff mailing list -- all-staff at masslawlists.org To unsubscribe send an email to all-staff-leave at masslawlists.org REMINDER: The DRBA and BBI are the hosts of this listserv and are not responsible for the content of member posts. The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MLRI Benefits Staff Attorney .pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 447373 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MLRI Health Law Staff Attorney.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 676918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 15:15:33 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:15:33 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008a01d57546$68931d90$39b958b0$@labarrelaw.com> From: DOJlawjobs (OARM) Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 6:10 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: Attorney and Legal Internship Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Good morning, Below is a list of current attorney and legal internship vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice. Please post on your internal sites and distribute to any interested audience, including law student organizations and other affinity groups. The Department of Justice office places a high value on diversity of experiences and perspectives and encourages applications from all qualified men and women from all ethnic and racial backgrounds, veterans, LGBT individuals, and persons with disabilities. We welcome applications from candidates who are interested in positively contributing to Justice and hope that you will consider joining the dedicated public servants at the Department of Justice. To learn more about Justice and our legal careers, please visit our website at https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers. In addition to the below job opportunities, the United States Trustee Program is accepting applications for the position of U.S. Trustee for Region 9 in Cleveland, OH. For more information on how to apply, please see https://www.justice.gov/ust/file/region9ustjobannouncement.pdf/download. Attorney Vacancies & Volunteer Legal Internships Hiring Organization Job Title State Posted/ Updated Hiring Organization USAO District of Colorado Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Colorado Posted/ Updated September 26, 2019 Hiring Organization National Security Division (NSD) Job Title Trial Attorney State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 26, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Southern District of California Job Title Assistant United States Attorney - Appellate Section State California Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) Job Title Law Student Volunteer - Spring 2020 State Virginia Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Summer- Federal Programs Branch State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization Civil Division (CIV) Job Title Unpaid Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year- Federal Programs State District of Columbia Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Nevada Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Nevada Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Nevada Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Nevada Posted/ Updated September 25, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of New York Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2020, Civil Division State New York Posted/ Updated September 24, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Eastern District of New York Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year 2019/20, Civil Division State New York Posted/ Updated September 24, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO District of Nevada Job Title Assistant United States Attorney (Not-to-exceed 2-years) State Nevada Posted/ Updated September 24, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Tennessee Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer 2020 State Tennessee Posted/ Updated September 24, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Tennessee Job Title Law Student Volunteer Academic Year 2020/2021 State Tennessee Posted/ Updated September 24, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Middle District of Pennsylvania Job Title Assistant United States Attorney State Pennsylvania Posted/ Updated September 23, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Southern District of Illinois Job Title Law Student Volunteer-SPRING 2020 State Illinois Posted/ Updated September 23, 2019 Hiring Organization Criminal Division (CRM) Job Title Resident Legal Advisor, Kenya State Posted/ Updated September 23, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Academic Year State Texas Posted/ Updated September 23, 2019 Hiring Organization USAO Western District of Texas Job Title Law Student Volunteer, Summer State Texas Posted/ Updated September 23, 2019 Manage Your Email: If you no longer wish to receive these email notifications, please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. If you would like to update your contact information, please submit the following information: SCHOOL OR ORGANIZATION: NAME: TITLE: PHONE: EMAIL: WEBSITE: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bluezinfandel at hotmail.com Fri Sep 27 15:18:44 2019 From: bluezinfandel at hotmail.com (Ben Fulton) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:18:44 +0000 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions Message-ID: Hi all, I think a document detailing how to overcome formatting challenges would be great. It's the kind of resource that I would really enjoy having. Please post something back to this list when you have something completed. I'm afraid I don't have anything to contribute, because I'm always searching for answers to these questions, and I have been wanting to improve my ability to do better formatting, but very uncertain of where to begin. Right now I rely on sighted assistance for a large amount of all of this, but having more independence would be nice. All the best, Ben ------- Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a presentation of some kind. Laura From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 16:40:11 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:40:11 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Access Living CEO position - posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d57552$3b970a20$b2c51e60$@labarrelaw.com> Hey there Blind Law Folk, I guess this is job posting day. Here’s another one. From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Michael Allen Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 10:19 AM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Access Living CEO position - posting See the message below from Ken Walden at Access Living. Michael Allen Partner Relman, Dane & Colfax, PLLC 1225 19th Street, N.W., Suite 600 Washington, D.C. 20036-2456 (P) 202.728.1888 (F) 202.728.0848 E-mail: mallen at relmanlaw.com Web: www.relmanlaw.com Twitter: @allencivrights (Licensed in the District of Columbia and Virginia) NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments to it contain confidential or legally privileged information from the law firm of Relman, Dane, & Colfax, PLLC. This information is only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the contained information is strictly prohibited and that the documents should be returned to this firm immediately. If you have received this email in error, please notify us by email immediately. From: Ken Walden Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 10:56 AM Subject: Access Living CEO position - postiing As some of you certainly know, Access Living’s CEO and President, Marca Bristo, passed away a few weeks ago. She founded the organization about 40 years ago, worked under President Clinton as Chair of the National Council on Disability, founded and led the National Council on Independent Living, was a key figure in the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, traveled around the world to promote disability rights, and was basically a rock star in the disability rights movement. Our succession plan is moving forward, which includes a national search for a new leader. I have posted the job announcement here. We are looking for someone with senior management experience and a broad swath of leadership abilities in fundraising, board relations, financial oversight, budgets, service delivery, advocacy, communications, etc. The announcement has more details. This is an incredible opportunity for a visionary disability rights leader. Feel free to distribute far and wide. Kenneth M. Walden Managing Attorney Access Living of Metropolitan Chicago 115 West Chicago Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60654 Voice: 312.640.2136 TTY: 312.640.2102 Fax: 312.640.2101 www.accessliving.org The information in, or documents attached to, this e-mail contain confidential or privileged information. The information is the property of the sender and intended only for use by the individual or entity named above. The recipient of this information is prohibited from disclosing the contents of the information to another party. If you are neither the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivery to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that disclosure of contents in any manner is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender of this email immediately if you received this information in error. REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2634 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: job posting President and CEO.DOCX Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 28402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris.stewart at uky.edu Fri Sep 27 17:04:14 2019 From: chris.stewart at uky.edu (Stewart, Christopher K) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 13:04:14 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Relativity with JAWS Message-ID: Hi Y'all, I remember some talk a few years ago about using Relativity with JAWS. Has anyone got more recent information on whether it's in any way accessible? Thanks, Chris -- Chris K. Stewart Attorney at Law KBA #97351 Ph: (502)457-1757 From sai at fiatfiendum.org Fri Sep 27 18:48:44 2019 From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 19:48:44 +0100 Subject: [blindLaw] Typography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re Typography for Lawyers: I was able to get a PDF copy by sending proof of purchase (of the softbound version) to: stephanie.rust-small at thomsonreuters.com I've not yet checked it in depth - I don't use NVDA / JAWS - but seems good so far. It's partially locked down though (document modification & extraction not allowed). Sincerely, Sai President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3) PS Non-gendered pronouns please. NSA et al: I'm a US citizen. Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect errors. On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 14:45 Sai wrote: > Correction: "smart quotes" ignores trailing punctuation when > determining if there's a following space. E.g. it works at the end of > sentence if you have a period after the quote. > > You can turn smart quotes off in the word processor and/or system-wide > keyboard settings options. > > Using straight quotes instead of directional (smart) quotes will never > be wrong, it just won't look as good. Using the wrong directional > quote is a noticeable error, though. > > So, if you want to avoid errors at the cost of looking a bit less > nice, just use straight quotes for everything and turn off smart > quotes. > > Sincerely, > Sai > President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc. > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 2:31 PM Sai wrote: > > > > On the discrimination thread, a few issues related to typography came up. > > > > 1. Smart quotes are in Braille. > > > > opening & closing single quote = ‘ & ’ = ⠠⠦ & ⠠⠴ (that should be dot 6, > not dot 3) > > opening & closing double quote = “ & ” = ⠦ & ⠴ > > > > Often straight single (') & double (") quotes are used instead, eg > because it's easier to type and to find & replace. > > > > "Smart quotes" means that the software replaces the straight quotes I > just used with “opening & closing quotes like this”, just based on spacing. > Space before = “opening; space after = closing”; no space either side = > straight"quotes. > > > > Straight single quote is identical to both apostrophe (for contractions > like that's) and the hours symbol (as in both time and degrees of angle); > double quotes is identical to both the vertical ditto symbol (in English) > and minutes (again both time & angle). > > > > > > > > 2. I suggest reading Matthew Butterick's book "Typography for Lawyers", > excerpted here: > > > > https://typographyforlawyers.com/toc.html > > > > The book itself is only available in softbound copy: > > > > > https://store.legal.thomsonreuters.com/law-products/Practice-Materials/Typography-for-Lawyers-2d/p/105523076 > > > > Perhaps some of you might contact the author & publisher to get them to > make a blind accessible version available. > > > > Their emails are, respectively (in ready to paste format): > > > > "Matthew Butterick" , "Thomson Reuters > West accessibility" > > > > If you have success, please let me know. > > > > > > 3. I'm a rare combination: fully sighted sometimes, fully blind other > times, experienced at writing & editing legal briefs, plus some background > in UX design. > > > > So, if you have questions about this kind of topic that your own > research doesn't answer, feel free to ask me. > > > > I mostly use computers fully sighted at home (eg writing briefs), except > for navigation or in normal lighting (eg taking notes in an office or > school setting), so I'm not as well versed in eg NVDA. But I might be able > to explain things at the intersection of sighted & blind. > > > > Sincerely, > > Sai > > President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3) > > > > PS Non-gendered pronouns please. NSA et al: I'm a US citizen. > > > > Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision and autocorrect > errors. > From derekjdittmar at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 19:19:58 2019 From: derekjdittmar at gmail.com (Derek Dittmar) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:19:58 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Quetion on accessing books for research Message-ID: All, First things first. I am delighted to share that I passed the North Carolina Bar, and am being sworn in on October 3. Thank you all for your advice, guidance, and inspiration. Even if you didn't realize it, you made me feel less alone; your example pushed me to get the job done, and I am so thankful. Now for my question. Does anyone have experience with getting accessible texts from libraries? I know about Bookshare, and I know that, if I get in touch with the right person at a publisher's business, I can get a PDF of a book when showing proof of purchase. But I'm curious about how this relates to libraries. For example, I want to access the treatis on North Carolina Constitutional Law (if I'm going to swear an oath, I need a better understanding of the Constitution I am swearing to defend). I could buy the book and send the proof to the publishers, but (1) it is well over $250 and (2) I know for a fact that my law library (open to alums and bar members) has a copy. While the library has done an amazing job of accessing different databases (it even bought a Bookshare membership), this book isn't available in any of those avenues. We're working on trying to get a copy from the authors, but it raised the question: what is a public library required (or able) to do to get its physical books accessible for blind patrons? One of the authors contacted the publisher, and was told that (1) the publisher would not distribute a pdf and (2) the author was contractually forbidden from doing so himself. To be clear, our library staff are AMAZING. This is less of a "how do I make them help me" and more of a "what tools do they (or I) have to go to the publishers?" Thanks again. Warmly yours, Derek Dittmar From seifs at umich.edu Fri Sep 27 20:51:11 2019 From: seifs at umich.edu (Seif-Eldeen Saqallah) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:51:11 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Quetion on accessing books for research In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps this might be of interest: The Law and Accessible Texts: Reconciling Civil Rights and Copyrights https://www.arl.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/2019.07.15-white-paper-law-and-accessible-texts.pdf ... I am forwarding this along from a list post. This is a very well researched and thoughtful document. Good afternoon, Today, the Association of Research Libraries (ARL) released a white paper titled "The Law and Accessible Texts: Reconciling Civil Rights and Copyrights". I think this is an INCREDIBLY important document for everyone in the field to read. With the new academic year approaching it could be very helpful in answering questions you or others in your institution's community might have around creating alternative format materials. I would suggest sharing it with your General Counsel and other important stake holders. It is in a PDF format and has been checked for accessibility. One thing to note is that the links in the text contain the entire URL, so a screen reader will hear the URL. I have notified ARL of that. The paper can be found at the following link The Law and Accessible Texts: Reconciling Civil Rights and Copyrights On 9/27/19, Derek Dittmar via BlindLaw wrote: > All, > First things first. I am delighted to share that I passed the North > Carolina Bar, and am being sworn in on October 3. Thank you all for > your advice, guidance, and inspiration. Even if you didn't realize it, > you made me feel less alone; your example pushed me to get the job > done, and I am so thankful. > Now for my question. Does anyone have experience with getting > accessible texts from libraries? I know about Bookshare, and I know > that, if I get in touch with the right person at a publisher's > business, I can get a PDF of a book when showing proof of purchase. > But I'm curious about how this relates to libraries. For example, I > want to access the treatis on North Carolina Constitutional Law (if > I'm going to swear an oath, I need a better understanding of the > Constitution I am swearing to defend). I could buy the book and send > the proof to the publishers, but (1) it is well over $250 and (2) I > know for a fact that my law library (open to alums and bar members) > has a copy. While the library has done an amazing job of accessing > different databases (it even bought a Bookshare membership), this book > isn't available in any of those avenues. We're working on trying to > get a copy from the authors, but it raised the question: what is a > public library required (or able) to do to get its physical books > accessible for blind patrons? One of the authors contacted the > publisher, and was told that (1) the publisher would not distribute a > pdf and (2) the author was contractually forbidden from doing so > himself. To be clear, our library staff are AMAZING. This is less of > a "how do I make them help me" and more of a "what tools do they (or > I) have to go to the publishers?" > Thanks again. > Warmly yours, > Derek Dittmar > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/seifs%40umich.edu > -- Seif Saqallah University of Michigan Juris Doctor/ Masters in Middle Eastern and North African Studies J.D/M.A Candidate | 2021 International studies, Arabic Studies, and Judaic Studies; Law, Justice, and Social Change B.A | 2017 248-325-7091 seifs at umich.edu Student Attorney | International Transactions Clinic University of Michigan Law School 3120 Jeffries Hall 701 South State Street Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109 www.law.umich.edu/ITC The information in this transmittal (including attachments, if any) is confidential and may contain privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this transmittal in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email, delete this communication, and destroy all copies of the transmittal (including attachments, if any). From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Sep 27 21:19:09 2019 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:19:09 -0600 Subject: [blindLaw] FW: [DRBA] Fwd: NEW: Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers In-Reply-To: References: <3bc9de687c9c373d93aac2cdbef113a7@law-neu-csm.symplicity.com> Message-ID: <009701d57579$33ecd7b0$9bc68710$@labarrelaw.com> From: Disability Rights Bar Association On Behalf Of Lydia X. Z. Brown Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 3:11 PM To: DRBA at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [DRBA] Fwd: NEW: Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers | Mass.gov Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers 2 YEAR FELLOWSHIP FOR CLASSES OF 2018-2020 The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) is pleased to announce the Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers. The fellowship offers new lawyers the opportunity to develop legal skills and experience working in an independent state agency that is dedicated to the promotion of good government and responsible stewardship of public assets. The fellowship reflects our commitment to cultivating a diverse and inclusive workplace. Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers | Mass.gov Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) is pleased to announce the Justice Geraldine S. Hines Diversity Fellowship for Lawyers. The fellowship offers new lawyers the opportunity to develop legal skills and experience working in an independent state agency that is dedicated to the promotion of good government and responsible stewardship of public assets. The fellowship reflects our commitment to cultivating a diverse and inclusive workplace. Please visit: https:// www.mass.gov/info-details/justice-geraldine-s-hines-diversity-fellowship-for-lawyers ᐧ REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. DONATE: The DRBA is a valuable free resource to its members. But the DRBA does have expenses for management, web and listserv services. PLEASE DONATE TODAY any amount you wish Online at http://GiveToSU.com Select “Burton Blatt Institute Fund” from the “My gift is designated to” drop down menu and indicate “DRBA” in the “Gift is to be used for” box. BRIEF BANK: Are you sharing briefs, interrogatories, decisions or other non-confidential resources on this listserv? ARCHIVE them for all present and future members by logging in to the DRBA website, going to the MEMBERS AREA and selecting ONLINE DOCUMENT DATABASE for further instructions. Contact DRBA-Law at law.syr.edu for login credentials and related help. From jtfetter at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 22:49:18 2019 From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] List of Traps and Solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m thrilled to see such a high level of interest. If you have indicated on or off list that you want to be part of this, please expect to hear from me early next week, and we can get the ball rolling. Thanks again, and have a great weekend! Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 27, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Ben Fulton via BlindLaw wrote: > > Hi all, > > I think a document detailing how to overcome formatting challenges would be great. It's the kind of resource that I would really enjoy having. Please post something back to this list when you have something completed. I'm afraid I don't have anything to contribute, because I'm always searching for answers to these questions, and I have been wanting to improve my ability to do better formatting, but very uncertain of where to begin. Right now I rely on sighted assistance for a large amount of all of this, but having more independence would be nice. > > All the best, > > Ben > > ------- > Thanks, James!! I'm definitely interested. I'll try writing up my check list and customizations over the next few days. I also very much agree regarding having a document posted somewhere or having a presentation of some kind. > > Laura > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindLaw mailing list > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com From laura.wolk at gmail.com Sat Sep 28 12:33:11 2019 From: laura.wolk at gmail.com (Laura Wolk) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 08:33:11 -0400 Subject: [blindLaw] Discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <8b9c76d2-a1cf-3ba9-dcb4-f45755d24981@yahoo.com> <98FFC933-61C2-4A5B-A48B-EEE1D94D2DC7@yahoo.com> <1BC323EA-8412-46D8-B86D-0DD654655BE5@gmail.com> <023d01d57315$2e02f1b0$8a08d510$@sbgaal.com> <003401d57318$2c6b0c40$854124c0$@nyc.rr.com> <1BAC65FD6F6D1140A9F58F9D21A1A539246CF534@SM-EXMAIL03.loeb.com> Message-ID: Fair point, Ger. And then to hold me accountable going forward if I didn't fix them. On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier wrote: > Laura > > I must say, I think the appropriate course for your under-graduate > Professors to have followed would have been to: > 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would presumably > effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate impact on > your future); and > 2. To tell you they were doing so and why and explain the issues with > content. > > Kind regards > > Ger > > On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw wrote: >> Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad >> with these errors. I was judged based on the "substance," because >> that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In fact, it wasn't. >> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with >> drafting something for a client. This is why I really think this is >> in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to >> need to put in to make her work look presentable? >> >> And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to tell. And they >> see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix >> this... No harm, no foul. >> >> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on >> for highlighting. I never really thought about highlighting. But >> people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in >> when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date. So >> although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow. My >> assistant was just changing everything. After I had yet another >> uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was >> helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me >> she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future. >> >> Laura >> >> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk wrote: >>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same happened to me, >>> except htat my law review editor pointed it out. The same thing >>> happens with an apostrophe. A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value >>> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217. Hate to tell you, >>> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when >>> drafted in note pad too. This can also happen when copy/pasting from >>> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs. >>> >>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize >>> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with >>> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe. >>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws seems to be so >>> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works >>> for you. >>> >>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols. I, >>> too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a control+F before >>> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39. Placing a caret >>> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>> wrote: >>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever. >>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world >>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school? >>>> >>>> Sanho >>>> >>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double >>>>> quotes. >>>>> >>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The >>>>> widest >>>>> point is at the top. There is only one symbol that represents the >>>>> quotation >>>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote. >>>>> >>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, >>>>> but >>>>> they >>>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” >>>>> with >>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the >>>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces >>>>> to >>>>> the >>>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material. >>>>> >>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the >>>>> opening >>>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two >>>>> apostrophes >>>>> to >>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really >>>>> don’t >>>>> see >>>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the >>>>> straight >>>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong. >>>>> >>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.” >>>>> >>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes." >>>>> >>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into >>>>> this >>>>> email. >>>>> >>>>> Can you tell the difference? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US >>>>> Attorney at Law >>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP] >>>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP >>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001 >>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 | >>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com >>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San >>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, >>>>> files >>>>> or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential >>>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended >>>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, >>>>> distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached >>>>> to >>>>> this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this >>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender. Please >>>>> destroy >>>>> the original transmission and its attachments without reading or >>>>> saving >>>>> in >>>>> any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP. >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: BlindLaw On Behalf Of Ray Wayne >>>>> via >>>>> BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart >>>>> quote? >>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw >>>>> > On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM >>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: Shannon > >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Sorry Laura, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was >>>>> regarding >>>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? >>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler >>>>> >>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue >>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401 >>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999 >>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296 >>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752 >>>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com >>>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged >>>>> and/or >>>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without >>>>> express >>>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, >>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura >>>>> Wolk >>>>> via BlindLaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM >>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination >>>>> >>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite >>>>> understand >>>>> what you are trying to ask. >>>>> >>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is >>>>> that >>>>> we >>>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind >>>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose >>>>> firms >>>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the >>>>> work. >>>>> It >>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the >>>>> person >>>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over >>>>> again, >>>>> and >>>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable >>>>> as >>>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had >>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind >>>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and >>>>> said >>>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to >>>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some >>>>> feedback. >>>>> A >>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his >>>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not >>>>> to >>>>> say >>>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to >>>>> do. >>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. >>>>> This >>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft >>>>> skills >>>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to >>>>> tell >>>>> a >>>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something >>>>> that >>>>> makes your documents look strange." >>>>> >>>>> Laura >>>>> >>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> Laura and all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment >>>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of >>>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for >>>>>> more >>>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more >>>>>> from your perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>> Sanho >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following >>>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months >>>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m >>>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I >>>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either. >>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that >>>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do >>>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding >>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks >>>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as >>>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My >>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues, >>>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the >>>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of >>>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes >>>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment >>>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local >>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog >>>>>>> post linked below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ee >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for >>>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the >>>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s >>>>>>>> worth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a >>>>>>>> phenomenon >>>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will >>>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have >>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing >>>>>>>> supports that fear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not >>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is >>>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to >>>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area >>>>>>>> related >>>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics. >>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting >>>>>>>> field >>>>>>>> of practice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation >>>>>>>> errors. >>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have >>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that >>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships >>>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about >>>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships >>>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned >>>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still >>>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my >>>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> practice? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have >>>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I >>>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing >>>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> James, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school >>>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a >>>>>>>>>> degree >>>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those >>>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under >>>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my >>>>>>>>>> schooling. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other >>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was >>>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. >>>>>>>>>> When >>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can >>>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I >>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart >>>>>>>>>>> break. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak >>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an >>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many >>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law >>>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick" >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, >>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things >>>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, >>>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing >>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of >>>>>>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before >>>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who >>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own >>>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' >>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the >>>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but >>>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be >>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a >>>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter% 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40y >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ahoo.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> >>>>> yahoo.com> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193% >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> BlindLaw: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak% 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com >> >