[blindLaw] Discrimination

Tue Sep 24 18:20:55 UTC 2019

Yes. Sadly, these types of experiences are ones where the employer may expect to actually lose efficiency as the result of supervising the inexperienced worker. This is, in fact, one of the factors that the Department of Labor considers when it has to decide whether someone in a particular position has been correctly classified as an intern vs an employee. 

Here is one anecdote from my own summer job search as a 1l, way back in 2006. I split the 2007 summer between two positions. At one of them, someone told me off the record that while I was "far and away" the top candidate, I almost wasn't offered the job. The reasoning was that the firm had just moved to new offices a few months before, and many people were not sure the firm was ready for another major undertaking so soon. Yes, hiring me was equated to relocating the main office of an entire firm, upwards of 100 people. Fortunately for me, wiser heads prevailed. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:06 PM, James T. Fetter via 
> > wrote:
> 
> Externships are designed to be, and thus seen as, learning experiences. You'd never depend on an extern's work, if you were seriously under the gun and needed to meet a filing deadline. You certainly wouldn't let an extern take a deposition, prep a deponent, etc. Re: free labor, no attorney would turn that down, again as long as not a lot was riding on its quality or timely delivery.
> 
> The default assumption sighted people face is that they're competent, or at least have the potential to become competent, until proven otherwise. The default assumption we face is the exact opposite--that we are both incompetent and unable by nature to become competent, until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> There is no way around it: the amount of discrimination we face in hiring is both staggering and extremely frustrating. If not for my current position, which served as a springboard to the clerkship I will start next summer, I don't know what I would do.
> 
> Now, after that uplifting sermon, any ideas for solutions?
> 
> 
>> On 9/24/2019 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>> James’ point is spot on.
>> 
>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in practice?
>> 
>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>> 
>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> James,
>>> 
>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped me with all my schooling.
>>> 
>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>> 
>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Meredith Ballard
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break.
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> 
>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time position.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so
>>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutnyak%40gmail.com>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org <mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m13grey%40yahoo.com>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjdavis9193%40gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com