[blindLaw] Discrimination

Angie Matney angie.matney at gmail.com
Tue Sep 24 18:29:52 UTC 2019


Lots of really great points here. The importance of producing a visually acceptable document cannot be overstated. Having said this, I asked for, and received at two firms, the accommodation of having my assistant or our Word Processing department "proofread" my work to help me catch errors I may have missed. Still, I had to have the knowledge that the document needed additional processing before it went to the partner or client or whoever. I also don't take this as a license not to bother with trying to be consistent in formatting and spacing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an
> interview.  Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list
> to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential
> discrimination.
> 
> But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again,
> it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be
> able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view
> as well as in substance.  And I don't think we do this or focus on
> this nearly enough.  I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal
> formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not
> surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy
> for how good the employee will b.  I'm also not terribly surprised
> when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school
> exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate
> is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work.  Compile
> excerpts of record.  Read handwritten filings.  Cite check.  Proofread
> and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time
> a partner mistypes something.  Yes, we can clearly do all of these
> things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control.  But the
> point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than
> writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and
> those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school
> grades.  And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out
> ways to anticipate and address it.  Because if a hiring partner
> doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things
> that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether
> unreasonable to opt not to hire that person.  Our job is to show them
> through example and education that those beliefs are false.  I firmly
> believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle
> depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing
> the hiring.  Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list,
> but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've
> had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know.
> 
> I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop.  How to bluebook
> (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook."  You
> might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at
> all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you
> and fixing your mistakes.  This happens, trust me.  Other agenda items
> might include "Common formatting errors ."  Do you 1. Know the
> difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how
> to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's
> uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as
> justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in
> footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same
> changes?  4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and
> widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them?
> I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but
> many, many people do not.  I believe so sincerely, after talking to
> everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to
> lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make
> others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring
> us.  I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken,
> without these skills.
> 
> End rant, and back to work I go.
> 
> Laura
> 
> 
>> On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> James,
>> 
>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being seen
>> as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I was
>> asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical
>> book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped
>> me with all my schooling.
>> 
>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys when
>> they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first
>> out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other
>> attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is easier
>> to make connections.
>> 
>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it would
>> be before entering the profession.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> Meredith Ballard
>> 
>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney,
>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look
>>>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an
>>>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right, and
>>>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many
>>>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still
>>>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school
>>>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious
>>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course,
>>>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have
>>>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as
>>>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are
>>>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out
>>>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud
>>>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given
>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but still
>>>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for
>>>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time
>>>> position.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when I
>>>>> was first licensed.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so
>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>> 
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> 
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