[blindLaw] Discrimination

Cody Davis cjdavis9193 at gmail.com
Tue Sep 24 21:14:01 UTC 2019 

Does anyone know if JAWS has a command to announce text attributes like in voiceover?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 24, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever.
> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world
> do we learn these things while we're still in school?
> 
> Sanho
> 
>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double quotes.
>> 
>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The widest
>> point is at the top. There is  only one symbol that represents the quotation
>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>> 
>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but they
>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,” with
>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the
>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to the
>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material.
>> 
>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the opening
>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to
>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t see
>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the straight
>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong.
>> 
>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
>> 
>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>> 
>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into this
>> email.
>> 
>> Can you tell the difference?
>> 
>> 
>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>> Attorney at Law
>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/>
>> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San
>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via
>> BlindLaw
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote?
>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf
>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>> 
>> Sorry Laura,
>> 
>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was regarding
>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain.
>> Thanks!
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>> 
>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>
>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or
>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express
>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk
>> via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>> 
>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite understand
>> what you are trying to ask.
>> 
>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we
>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind
>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms
>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work. It
>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person
>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and
>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as
>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had
>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind
>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said
>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to
>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some feedback. A
>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his
>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to say
>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to do.
>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed. This
>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills
>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell a
>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something that
>> makes your documents look strange."
>> 
>> Laura
>> 
>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> Laura and all,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment
>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of
>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more
>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more
>>> from your perspective.
>>> 
>>> Warmth,
>>> Sanho
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following
>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next
>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months
>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m
>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I
>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all
>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>> 
>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in
>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either.
>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that
>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do
>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less
>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>> 
>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks
>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as
>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues,
>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the
>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of
>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes
>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment
>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog
>>>> post linked below.
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ
>>>> <https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>> ee
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for
>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the
>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a
>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon
>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will
>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not
>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing
>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is
>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to
>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related
>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics.
>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field
>>>>> of practice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors.
>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have
>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that
>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships
>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about
>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships
>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned
>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still
>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in
>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have
>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I
>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing
>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school
>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree
>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those
>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under
>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my
>>>>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was
>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When
>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can
>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an
>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school
>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think
>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my
>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which
>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things
>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions,
>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual
>>>>>>>>> aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before
>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I
>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own
>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the
>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a
>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> 
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>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/maurakutn%3cBR%3e>>>>>>>>><%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>> 
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>>>>> gmail.com
>>>> 
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