[blindLaw] Discrimination

Tue Sep 24 21:21:30 UTC 2019

Right, exactly.  I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad
with these errors.  I was judged based on the "substance," because
that's what the profs thought was "equitable."  In fact, it wasn't.
Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with
drafting something for a client.  This is why I really think this is
in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to
need to put in to make her work look presentable?

And you are right, Angie.  People just don't think to tell.  And they
see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix
this...  No harm, no foul.

My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on
for highlighting.  I never really thought about highlighting.  But
people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in
when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date.  So
although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow.  My
assistant was just changing everything.  After I had yet another
uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was
helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me
she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future.

Laura

On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ha.  You are all proving my point, sadly.  The same happened to me,
> except htat my law review editor pointed it out.  The same thing
> happens with an apostrophe.  A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value
> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217.  Hate to tell you,
> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when
> drafted in note pad too.  This can also happen when copy/pasting from
> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>
> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize
> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with
> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe.
> This used to work, but doesn't anymore.  But since Jaws seems to be so
> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works
> for you.
>
> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols.  I,
> too, check for underlying ascii values.  I also do a control+F before
> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39.  Placing a caret
> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value.
>
> Laura
>
> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever.
>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world
>> do we learn these things while we're still in school?
>>
>> Sanho
>>
>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double
>>> quotes.
>>>
>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The
>>> widest
>>> point is at the top. There is  only one symbol that represents the
>>> quotation
>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>>>
>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but
>>> they
>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,”
>>> with
>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the
>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to
>>> the
>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material.
>>>
>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the
>>> opening
>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes
>>> to
>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t
>>> see
>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the
>>> straight
>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong.
>>>
>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
>>>
>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>
>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into
>>> this
>>> email.
>>>
>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>
>>>
>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>> Attorney at Law
>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San
>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
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>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote?
>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>
>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>
>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was
>>> regarding
>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>
>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>
>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or
>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express
>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient,
>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura
>>> Wolk
>>> via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>
>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite
>>> understand
>>> what you are trying to ask.
>>>
>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is
>>> that
>>> we
>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind
>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose
>>> firms
>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work.
>>> It
>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person
>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again,
>>> and
>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable
>>> as
>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had
>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind
>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said
>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to
>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some
>>> feedback.
>>> A
>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his
>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to
>>> say
>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to
>>> do.
>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed.
>>> This
>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills
>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell
>>> a
>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something
>>> that
>>> makes your documents look strange."
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment
>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of
>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more
>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more
>>>> from your perspective.
>>>>
>>>> Warmth,
>>>> Sanho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following
>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next
>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months
>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m
>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I
>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all
>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in
>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either.
>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that
>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do
>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less
>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks
>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as
>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues,
>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the
>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of
>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes
>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment
>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog
>>>>> post linked below.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ
>>>>><https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>> ee
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for
>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the
>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a
>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon
>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will
>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not
>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing
>>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is
>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to
>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related
>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics.
>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field
>>>>>> of practice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors.
>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have
>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that
>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships
>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about
>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships
>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned
>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still
>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in
>>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have
>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I
>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing
>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school
>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree
>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those
>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under
>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my
>>>>>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was
>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When
>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can
>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart
>>>>>>>>> break.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an
>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law
>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think
>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my
>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which
>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things
>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions,
>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of
>>>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before
>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I
>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own
>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the
>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a
>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com
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>>>>>
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