[blindLaw] Discrimination

Thu Sep 26 00:30:50 UTC 2019

All,

So, I'll be "that guy."

How do you access comments/track changes in Word?

Warmth,
Sanho

On 9/25/19, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> And let us not forget that one day, when you have the stature, something
> like an ex-chair of the firm on retired partner status or an associate dean
> at a fancy law school, you may draft emails with your own individualized
> application of punctuation and capitalization! Personally, I would just love
> it if some luminary brought back the rhetorical question mark or the
> interrobang, which is already having a bit of a moment.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:53 PM
> To: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>
> [EXTERNAL]
>
> Two thoughts on this: first, plenty of respected lawyers struggle with
> proofing and formatting and do rely on less expensive staff to carefully
> resolve such issues.  Second, less forgiveness is given to new lawyers and
> they ought to have someone in their life who can give brutally honest
> feedback about their work product appearance so they can train themselves to
> minimize common problems.
>
> Generating templates and knowing what to look for makes a big difference.
> This is harder in collaborative environments.  IN addition, the expectation
> is probably shifting as younger lawyers are assumed to be more familiar with
> technology as a core competency.  I've worked with a very successful sighted
> lawyer who bills well over $1000 per hour and still dictates all his emails
> to an assistant because his typing is painfully slow.  The digital divide is
> real regardless of disability.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com <rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:40 PM
> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>
> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote?
> Ray Wayne, New York City
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Shannon via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>
> Sorry Laura,
>
> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once.  My question was
> regarding knowing the difference between a straight and smart
> quote/apostrophe?
> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is.  Can you explain.
> Thanks!
> Sincerely,
>
> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>
> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
> 1212 Texas Avenue
> Lubbock, Texas 79401
> Office:  (806) 763-3999
> Mobile:  (806) 781-9296
> Fax:  (806) 749-3752
> E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com
> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or
> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express
> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wolk
> via BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> Cc: Laura Wolk
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>
> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question?  I don't quite understand
> what you are trying to ask.
>
> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we
> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind
> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose firms
> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work.  It
> happens.  And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person
> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again, and
> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable as
> the rest of their peers.  This has happened to me also.  I have even had
> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind
> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said
> "this is very important to me.  Whatever you tell me, I will be able to
> figure out a way to address it."  And then they did give me some feedback.
> A friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his
> emails were formatted whackily.  The junior partner told my friend not to
> say anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to
> do.  Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed.
> This is the stuff I'm talking about.  We need to be real about the soft
> skills help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to
> tell a blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something
> that makes your documents look strange."
>
> Laura
>
> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Laura and all,
>>
>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment
>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of
>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more
>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more
>> from your perspective.
>>
>> Warmth,
>> Sanho
>>
>>
>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following
>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next
>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months
>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m
>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I
>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all
>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>
>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in
>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either.
>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that
>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do
>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less
>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>
>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks
>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as
>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues,
>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the
>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of
>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes
>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment
>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog
>>> post linked below.
>>>
>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ
>>> ee
>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for
>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the
>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth.
>>>>
>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a
>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon
>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will
>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not
>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing
>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>
>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is
>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to
>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related
>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics.
>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field
>>>> of practice.
>>>>
>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors.
>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have
>>>> time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that
>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships
>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about
>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships
>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned
>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still
>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in
>>>>> practice?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have
>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I
>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing
>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school
>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree
>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those
>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under
>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my
>>>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was
>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When
>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can
>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an
>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law school
>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think
>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my
>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which
>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things
>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions,
>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of visual
>>>>>>>> aspect to it.
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before
>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I
>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own
>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the
>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a
>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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