[blindLaw] Discrimination

Thu Sep 26 01:57:19 UTC 2019

Laura

I must say, I think the appropriate course for your under-graduate
Professors to have followed would have been to:
1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would presumably
effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate impact on
your future); and
2. To tell you they were doing so and why and explain the issues with content.

Kind regards

Ger

On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Right, exactly.  I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad
> with these errors.  I was judged based on the "substance," because
> that's what the profs thought was "equitable."  In fact, it wasn't.
> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with
> drafting something for a client.  This is why I really think this is
> in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to
> need to put in to make her work look presentable?
>
> And you are right, Angie.  People just don't think to tell.  And they
> see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix
> this...  No harm, no foul.
>
> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on
> for highlighting.  I never really thought about highlighting.  But
> people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in
> when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date.  So
> although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow.  My
> assistant was just changing everything.  After I had yet another
> uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was
> helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me
> she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future.
>
> Laura
>
> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ha.  You are all proving my point, sadly.  The same happened to me,
>> except htat my law review editor pointed it out.  The same thing
>> happens with an apostrophe.  A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value
>> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217.  Hate to tell you,
>> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when
>> drafted in note pad too.  This can also happen when copy/pasting from
>> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>>
>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize
>> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with
>> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe.
>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore.  But since Jaws seems to be so
>> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works
>> for you.
>>
>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols.  I,
>> too, check for underlying ascii values.  I also do a control+F before
>> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39.  Placing a caret
>> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever.
>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world
>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school?
>>>
>>> Sanho
>>>
>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double
>>>> quotes.
>>>>
>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The
>>>> widest
>>>> point is at the top. There is  only one symbol that represents the
>>>> quotation
>>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>>>>
>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom, but
>>>> they
>>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,”
>>>> with
>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the
>>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces to
>>>> the
>>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material.
>>>>
>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the
>>>> opening
>>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two apostrophes
>>>> to
>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really don’t
>>>> see
>>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the
>>>> straight
>>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong.
>>>>
>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
>>>>
>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>>
>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into
>>>> this
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San
>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via
>>>> BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart quote?
>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>
>>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was
>>>> regarding
>>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>>
>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>
>>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or
>>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express
>>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient,
>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura
>>>> Wolk
>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>
>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite
>>>> understand
>>>> what you are trying to ask.
>>>>
>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is
>>>> that
>>>> we
>>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind
>>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose
>>>> firms
>>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the work.
>>>> It
>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the person
>>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over again,
>>>> and
>>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable
>>>> as
>>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had
>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind
>>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and said
>>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to
>>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some
>>>> feedback.
>>>> A
>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his
>>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not to
>>>> say
>>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to
>>>> do.
>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed.
>>>> This
>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft skills
>>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to tell
>>>> a
>>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something
>>>> that
>>>> makes your documents look strange."
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment
>>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of
>>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for more
>>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more
>>>>> from your perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following
>>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending next
>>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months
>>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m
>>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I
>>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you all
>>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work in
>>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either.
>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that
>>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do
>>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any less
>>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks
>>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as
>>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues,
>>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the
>>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of
>>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes
>>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment
>>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog
>>>>>> post linked below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ
>>>>>><https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>> ee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for
>>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the
>>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s worth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide a
>>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a phenomenon
>>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will
>>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do not
>>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing
>>>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is
>>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to
>>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area related
>>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics.
>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting field
>>>>>>> of practice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation errors.
>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have
>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that
>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships
>>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about
>>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships
>>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned
>>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still
>>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive in
>>>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have
>>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I
>>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing
>>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school
>>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree
>>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those
>>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under
>>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my
>>>>>>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was
>>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job. When
>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can
>>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart
>>>>>>>>>> break.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an
>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law
>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think
>>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my
>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school, which
>>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things
>>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions,
>>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of
>>>>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before
>>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I
>>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own
>>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the
>>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a
>>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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