[blindLaw] Discrimination

Sat Sep 28 12:33:11 UTC 2019

Fair point, Ger.  And then to hold me accountable going forward if  I
didn't fix them.

On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com> wrote:
> Laura
>
> I must say, I think the appropriate course for your under-graduate
> Professors to have followed would have been to:
> 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would presumably
> effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate impact on
> your future); and
> 2. To tell you they were doing so and why and explain the issues with
> content.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Ger
>
> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Right, exactly.  I submitted paper upon paper upon paper in undergrad
>> with these errors.  I was judged based on the "substance," because
>> that's what the profs thought was "equitable."  In fact, it wasn't.
>> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're tasked with
>> drafting something for a client.  This is why I really think this is
>> in the back of people's minds... how much extra work are we going to
>> need to put in to make her work look presentable?
>>
>> And you are right, Angie.  People just don't think to tell.  And they
>> see this stuff and think, it'll only take a second for me to fix
>> this...  No harm, no foul.
>>
>> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound schemes turned on
>> for highlighting.  I never really thought about highlighting.  But
>> people at my Firm would highlight things that needed to be filled in
>> when filing, such as the final word count and the submission date.  So
>> although I would fill in everything, they were still in yellow.  My
>> assistant was just changing everything.  After I had yet another
>> uncomfortable conversation about how I knew she thought she was
>> helping, and I really appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me
>> she'd make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the future.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ha.  You are all proving my point, sadly.  The same happened to me,
>>> except htat my law review editor pointed it out.  The same thing
>>> happens with an apostrophe.  A "straight" apostrophe is ascii value
>>> 39, and curly smart apostrophes are 8216 and 8217.  Hate to tell you,
>>> Angie, but any apostrophes would have come out as straight when
>>> drafted in note pad too.  This can also happen when copy/pasting from
>>> Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>>>
>>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible to customize
>>> the Jaws word dictionary so that you can add 34 and replace it with
>>> the word "straight quote" and likewise with the straight apostrophe.
>>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore.  But since Jaws seems to be so
>>> tempermental these days, you might give it a go and see if it works
>>> for you.
>>>
>>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these symbols.  I,
>>> too, check for underlying ascii values.  I also do a control+F before
>>> submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and ^39.  Placing a caret
>>> before the number causes word to search for the ascii value.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any difference whatsoever.
>>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how in the world
>>>> do we learn these things while we're still in school?
>>>>
>>>> Sanho
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk about double
>>>>> quotes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at the bottom. The
>>>>> widest
>>>>> point is at the top. There is  only one symbol that represents the
>>>>> quotation
>>>>> mark, whether it is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>>>>>
>>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point at the bottom,
>>>>> but
>>>>> they
>>>>> are curved. The opening quote is shaped similar to a print letter “C,”
>>>>> with
>>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on the right of the
>>>>> enclosed material, is shaped like a backwards “C,” so its curve faces
>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> left. It is almost like they are enclosing the material.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart quotes, since the
>>>>> opening
>>>>> and closing quotes are different. I guess you could use two
>>>>> apostrophes
>>>>> to
>>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille, but I really
>>>>> don’t
>>>>> see
>>>>> that very often. I don’t think braille has an equivalent for the
>>>>> straight
>>>>> quote, but someone please jump in and correct me it I’m wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.”
>>>>>
>>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>>>
>>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and pasting it into
>>>>> this
>>>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>>> Loeb and Loeb LLP
>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San
>>>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents,
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>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne
>>>>> via
>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol for a smart
>>>>> quote?
>>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Cc: Shannon <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My question was
>>>>> regarding
>>>>> knowing the difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you explain.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>>>
>>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>>>> E-Mail: sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>
>>>>> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged
>>>>> and/or
>>>>> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without
>>>>> express
>>>>> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>>>>> recipient,
>>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laura
>>>>> Wolk
>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>
>>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I don't quite
>>>>> understand
>>>>> what you are trying to ask.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm trying to get at is
>>>>> that
>>>>> we
>>>>> have to face the sad but true reality that there are, in fact, blind
>>>>> attorneys out there who produce work of lesser visual quality, whose
>>>>> firms
>>>>> or legal assistants or whatever come along behind and clean up the
>>>>> work.
>>>>> It
>>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as Angie said, the
>>>>> person
>>>>> continues to remain unaware of the errors they make over and over
>>>>> again,
>>>>> and
>>>>> the people continue to believe that the blind person is not as capable
>>>>> as
>>>>> the rest of their peers. This has happened to me also. I have even had
>>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior to give me blind
>>>>> specific feedback, they said nothing was wrong, then I pressed and
>>>>> said
>>>>> "this is very important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able to
>>>>> figure out a way to address it." And then they did give me some
>>>>> feedback.
>>>>> A
>>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and noticed that his
>>>>> emails were formatted whackily. The junior partner told my friend not
>>>>> to
>>>>> say
>>>>> anything but, being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing to
>>>>> do.
>>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a bit embarrassed.
>>>>> This
>>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real about the soft
>>>>> skills
>>>>> help we need, and we need to create awareness that is indeed OK to
>>>>> tell
>>>>> a
>>>>> blind person "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing something
>>>>> that
>>>>> makes your documents look strange."
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion surrounding employment
>>>>>> discrimination. I have planned conversations with a couple of
>>>>>> attorneys responsible for hiring associates and will ask them for
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> information. Laura, I will send you an email off-list to learn more
>>>>>> from your perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law school following
>>>>>>> graduation and licensure. Now, that temporary position is ending
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>> Monday. And, despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6 months
>>>>>>> to find work, I have no employment lined up. (Somewhat jokingly) I’m
>>>>>>> far too bitter at this point to sell someone on a career in law. I
>>>>>>> think Meredith and James have done an excellent job of giving you
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability rights related work
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> law school because I did not want to be placed in that box either.
>>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that employers in that
>>>>>>> area might be a bit more understanding and educated. I was wrong. Do
>>>>>>> not assume that those who practice disability rights law are any
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> susceptible to the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue educating folks
>>>>>>> on the reality that blind or visually impaired attorneys are as
>>>>>>> capable as their sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among other issues,
>>>>>>> employment discrimination against persons with disabilities in the
>>>>>>> legal profession. We are trying to provide education to members of
>>>>>>> the bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in the hopes
>>>>>>> that this will alleviate some of the underlying causes of employment
>>>>>>> discrimination. This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE’s, and publishing writings like the blog
>>>>>>> post linked below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ
>>>>>>><https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-Committ%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>> ee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as good reasons for
>>>>>>>> people like myself and Sanho pursuing a legal degree? I took the
>>>>>>>> LSAT this past Saturday. I am proud of that for whatever it’s
>>>>>>>> worth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such anecdotes provide
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> majority of what we used to fill our sales.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the existence of a
>>>>>>>> phenomenon
>>>>>>>> such as the one you indicate Cody. I have worried that someone will
>>>>>>>> see my GPA and somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant grades which I do
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> deserve. This is of course irrational but still what I’m hearing
>>>>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the law. I am not
>>>>>>>> particularly drawn to disability rights. One of the reasons why is
>>>>>>>> that I don’t want to be silo into a field which others expect me to
>>>>>>>> enter. I don’t want to be limited to practice law in an area
>>>>>>>> related
>>>>>>>> to one of my most visible and perceptibly limiting characteristics.
>>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the most excepting
>>>>>>>> field
>>>>>>>> of practice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the dictation
>>>>>>>> errors.
>>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose. I don’t have
>>>>>>>> time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James’ point is spot on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James’ observation is that
>>>>>>>>> the experience a blind candidate may possess by way of externships
>>>>>>>>> and internships does not seem to assuage employers’ concerns about
>>>>>>>>> the candidates’ ability to practice. Despite my four externships
>>>>>>>>> during law school in which I was able to perform the work assigned
>>>>>>>>> to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I think employers still
>>>>>>>>> doubt my abilities to deliver the work they expect. Shouldn’t my
>>>>>>>>> history of success in the workplace evidence my ability to thrive
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people in general have
>>>>>>>>> no issue trusting that I am capable to do something, so long as I
>>>>>>>>> am not being paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem securing
>>>>>>>>> volunteer or community involvement opportunities. .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school
>>>>>>>>>> being seen as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a
>>>>>>>>>> degree
>>>>>>>>>> and a license, I was asked in a job interview how I got those
>>>>>>>>>> things if I can’t read a physical book. They seemed to be under
>>>>>>>>>> the impression that someone must have helped me with all my
>>>>>>>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other
>>>>>>>>>> attorneys when they find out I have my own firm versus how I was
>>>>>>>>>> treated when I was first out of school and looking for a job.
>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as someone they can
>>>>>>>>>> potentially work with and it is easier to make connections.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I
>>>>>>>>>> thought it would be before entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart
>>>>>>>>>>> break.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>> attorney, practicing for quite some time now--that many
>>>>>>>>>>>> employers pretty much look at a blind person's success in law
>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>> as a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> he's right, and it makes a great deal of sense in light of my
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in law school,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> is still extremely important by the way, with all the things
>>>>>>>>>>>> that law school doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions,
>>>>>>>>>>>> handling contentious meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence with any kind of
>>>>>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of these things before
>>>>>>>>>>>> being?? seen as potentially able to do them in practice. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> understand that things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will soon find out if this is true in my own
>>>>>>>>>>>> case. I also don't know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given the
>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> still be the best possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities that can act as a bridge to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> long-term, full-time position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices so far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40yahoo.com
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>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
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>