[blindLaw] Relativity with JAWS

[Gerard Sadlier]

Hello

Has nobody any comments on this at all? I do recall some threads on
this some time ago now which I have reviewed but I'm keen to
understand the state of the art!

Kind regards

GEr

On 10/4/19, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Thank you; this is very helpful! I may have some additional thoughts
> and/or be in touch off list soon, because I will be oriented to
> Relativity today.
>
> On 10/4/2019 9:03 AM, Elizabeth Troutman via BlindLaw wrote:
>> I find Relativity itself to be pretty clunky and difficult. But, after the
>> documents are loaded, I can have a paralegal generate an excel file with
>> the documents OCR'd and linked into the excel file. The excel contains any
>> labels/tagging that has been done - e.g. for email, it would have "to" in
>> one column, "from" in another column, etc. etc. I can then type in tags
>> and attorney notes. The excel file then gets run back through Relativity
>> and the tags/notes appear. So, then we can spit out a set of responsive
>> documents for example. Or, if I've tagged them for somebody's deposition,
>> spit out just those documents, with an accompanying excel file, so I can
>> continue to annotate. If we're working firm-wide on a doc review, I can
>> have it spit out just my "batches" and do the tagging in accordance with
>> whatever the guidelines are, and when it gets run back through, it looks
>> like everyone else's batches do. Obviously, it would be better if we
>> didn't have to do this whole process, but it's a work-around that has
>> allowed me to do e-discovery. If you want more help with this, feel free
>> to call - I can also put you in touch with our litigation support person
>> who could explain it in computer jargon.
>>
>> Elizabeth
>> Troutman<http://www.brookspierce.com/our-people/attorneys/elizabeth-l-troutman>
>>
>> [cid:image001.jpg at 01D57A92.8DA4F670]<http://www.brookspierce.com/>
>>
>> t: 336.271.3138
>> f: 336.232.9138
>>
>> 2000 Renaissance Plaza
>> 230 North Elm Street
>> Greensboro, NC 27401
>> P.O. Box 26000 (27420)
>>
>>
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of
>> blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Friday, October 4, 2019 8:00 AM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: BlindLaw Digest, Vol 185, Issue 12
>>
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Relativity with JAWS (Gerard Sadlier)
>> 2. Re: Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>> Discrimination (Scott Marshall)
>> 3. Re: Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>> Discrimination (Lakeria Taylor)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:44:47 +0100
>> From: Gerard Sadlier
>> <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com<mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>>
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: "Stewart, Christopher K"
>> <chris.stewart at uky.edu<mailto:chris.stewart at uky.edu>>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Relativity with JAWS
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAGZitzJa-hPHaXJWsh8rAnefbLQutiCBGjg_8SDwLu5Q4PoQiw at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAGZitzJa-hPHaXJWsh8rAnefbLQutiCBGjg_8SDwLu5Q4PoQiw at mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> I would also be very interested in any information regarding this!
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Ger
>>
>> On 9/27/19, Stewart, Christopher K via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> Hi Y'all,
>>>
>>> I remember some talk a few years ago about using Relativity with JAWS.
>>> Has anyone got more recent information on whether it's in any way
>>> accessible?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris K. Stewart
>>> Attorney at Law
>>> KBA #97351
>>> Ph:
>>> (502)457-1757
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier@gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 08:51:11 +0000
>> From: Scott Marshall
>> <marshall at blindlawyers.org<mailto:marshall at blindlawyers.org>>
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>> Discrimination
>> Message-ID:
>> <BN8PR18MB2819525D863428DF5E942EFBA09E0 at BN8PR18MB2819.namprd18.prod.outlook.com<mailto:BN8PR18MB2819525D863428DF5E942EFBA09E0 at BN8PR18MB2819.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Laura and everyone:
>> Thank you! This email thread has been invaluable. My biggest word
>> processing challenge is screwing up the formatting of documents that I did
>> not create originally. I have not made the changes suggested here as yet,
>> but it is on my to-do list for today for sure.
>> Now if we only had a good solution for the track changes problem.
>> The days of being the only author on a document are over.
>> Thanks again.
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>> Behalf Of Will Burley via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 12:28 AM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: Will Burley <will.burley3 at gmail.com<mailto:will.burley3 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>> Discrimination
>>
>> This conversation has been very welcomed!
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:43 PM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw <
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> Laura - I am not in a place where I can double check, but I often use
>>> paste special as text when I copy from programs. In Word the
>>> keystrokes are to copy the text onto the clipboard and move to where
>>> you want the text copied press Alt,e,s,u,u [do not press the commas,
>>> just press the letters consecutively )
>>>
>>> I think this will copy the text using the format of the document into
>>> which it is pasted.
>>>
>>> Is this your experience.
>>>
>>> There are also two keystrokes that I think help.
>>> If you highlight text and then press Alt+space the formatting of the
>>> text is removed.
>>> There is a similar command to remove the paragraph formatting, but I
>>> don't remember it right now.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk
>>> via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 5:13 PM
>>> To: Kelby Carlson
>>> <kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>; Blind
>>> Law Mailing List <
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>>> Discrimination
>>>
>>> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER ? USE CAUTION**
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I am sharing this on list because I've gotten a few off-list responses
>>> like the below message, and I want to make sure that everyone gets
>>> this info. In my opinion, it's the biggest way to rid docs of
>>> blindness-only formatting errors.
>>>
>>> By default, when you cut and paste into a word document from another
>>> document, program, or website, Word will retain the original
>>> formatting from that pasted text. That means that if you're fiile is
>>> in Times New Roman size 12, but the text you paste is Calibri size 10,
>>> you will be plopping a different font and size into your doc, and
>>> anything you write going forward will be in that font and size. Same
>>> goes for spacing, color, and any number of other attributes from
>>> pasted text. My biggest piece of advice, and the advice I repeat most
>>> often to blind folks, is to **turn this setting off!!.** It only
>>> causes problems. And, in the rare instance where you do need to
>>> preserve the original formatting, you can hit control immediately
>>> after pasting and choose "keep source formatting," and any special
>>> formatting will be retained.
>>>
>>> With so many iterations of word these days, I don't feel comfortable
>>> typing out directions. But go spElunking in your ADVANCED word
>>> options, Google, call Microsoft, whatever you need to do to find it.
>>> Also note that there are two boxes, one for pasting between documents
>>> and one for pasting between programs. They should both be set to
>>> merge formatting. And while you're at it, turn off auto bullets and
>>> auto numbering, and check the box that says "set left- and right-
>>> indent with tabs and backspaces." This will mean you'll need to press
>>> tab every time you start a new paragraph. However, it will also mean
>>> that you won't have paragraphs randomly indented a third of the way
>>> into the page because Word decided to do something stupid using its
>>> very smart "auto" features.
>>>
>>> Also be aware that you will have to do this separately in outlook as
>>> well. Though it uses Word as a text processor, it has its own set of
>>> options.
>>>
>>> Anyway, in the words of the infomercials, you should **immediately**
>>> see **vast** and **life-changing** results! All kidding aside,
>>> though, this is the first thing I do whenever I get a new job or
>>> computer, and it has made an absolute world of difference to me and
>>> the amount of errors that sighted folks need to fix.
>>>
>>> Happy formatting,
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 10/2/19, Kelby Carlson
>>> <kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Laura,
>>>>
>>>> This is definitely helpful. I admit I am not proficient at using a
>>>> Braille display with my screen reader, and I'm sure this would be
>>>> helpful. Do you use UEB to proof for things like formatting? In my
>>>> experience it gives far more specific results than regular US braille.
>>>> I assume you would still need some formatting such as fonts and
>>>> colors spoken. (I only recently figured out that oftentimes color is
>>>> included in things I copy and paste which ends up making certain
>>>> sections of documents look very odd; thankfully my office is pretty
>>>> good at bringing these formatting errors to my attention.)
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully these questions aren't bothersome; I have definitely
>>>> realized how important these factors are since beginning work and I
>>>> am still working out the best way of ensuring visual consistency in
>>>> my documents.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/2/19, Laura Wolk
>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>
>>>>> A nonbreaking space, like a nonbreaking hyphen, means that word
>>>>> wrap will not break up whatever is on either side of it. So, for
>>>>> instance, if you had the word burden--shifting, and for some reason
>>>>> burden ended up on one line and shifting on another, you'd replace
>>>>> the dash with a nonbreaking hyphen so that the word wouldn't be
>>>>> chopped. A nonbreaking space is, in my experience, customarily
>>>>> used between section and paragraph symbols and the number so as to
>>>>> keep the two together. It's also used in between the periods of an
>>>>> ellipsis. This all depends on the custom of the firm or court you
>>>>> work for, of course. There is a setting in Jaws that is supposed
>>>>> to read out nonbreaking characters (you can find it by activating
>>>>> quick settings and typing in the word breaking), but this is
>>>>> currently not functioning. Vispero is aware and has escalated it.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for formatting, I do most of my proofing in Braille. But I have
>>>>> turned on the setting where Jaws will tell me when spacing changes,
>>>>> which I find very helpful. I also have punctuation set to some,
>>>>> but I've added some customary marks into that, like quotation marks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this is helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/2/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> How much formatting information do you all have your screen reader
>>>>>> read as you are reading through a text? I now have mine set up to
>>>>>> read close to everything while I'm in Word, and while it is kind
>>>>>> of distracting it seems necessary for proofing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to know if there is anywhere that discusses the
>>>>>> different kinds of hyphens and when to use them. And I have no
>>>>>> idea what a non-breaking space is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Great I?m glad the workaround is working again! By the way you
>>>>>>> can
>>> also
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> this to make Jaws pronounce non-breaking spaces, which also got
>>>>>>> broken somewhere along the way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:40 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laura, I have Word 2016. I just changed the entries for \8220
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> \8221
>>>>>>>> to left quote and right quote, respectively, in WordClassic.jdf.
>>>>>>>> By default, both were set to the quote symbol (not sure which
>>>>>>>> one). The changes seem to have taken. I think I will have to
>>>>>>>> make sure I do
>>> this
>>>>>>>> for other dictionary files as well. Hopefully it works for you
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/well.+Hopefully+it+works+for+you?entry=gmail&source=g<https://www.google.com/maps/search/well.+Hopefully+it+works+for+you?entry=gmail&source=g>>.
>>> I?m
>>>>>>>> excited to have these pronounced differently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Angie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>> Loeb
>>>>>>>> and Loeb LLP
>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC |
>>>>>>>> San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
>>>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com><http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura
>>>>>>>> Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 6:27 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Great! I will try again tomorrow. I just updated again today. I
>>>>>>>> have ms word 2016, but I don't see why that would affect the
>>>>>>>> dictionary manager.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Laura,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, the most recent update of JAWS 2019 and office 365.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
>>>>>>>>> Certified Specialist in Appellate Law By The State Bar of
>>>>>>>>> California Holstein, Taylor and Unitt A Professional
>>>>>>>>> Corporation
>>>>>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103
>>>>>>>>> Riverside, CA 92501
>>>>>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
>>>>>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
>>>>>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com<http://www.holsteinlaw.com>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>mailto:
>>> brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com<mailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> >>>>>> >>
>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 3:02 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian,
>>>>>>>>> I used to do this, but I mentioned in an earlier message that
>>>>>>>>> I'm no longer able to get the dictionary to change those
>>>>>>>>> pronunciations.
>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>> tole Vispero and they've replicated it. Are you using the
>>>>>>>>> latest version of Jaws and is it working for you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It also does this if the document is an email attachment and
>>>>>>>>>> viewed in html form.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 10:37 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have found that JAWS will do this if you have smart quotes
>>>>>>>>>>> in a text file in notepad. I wish it did it in Word and
>>>>>>>>>>> outlook. Since it does do it in Notepad, it seems it would
>>>>>>>>>>> not be that difficult to port the behavior over to the Office
>>>>>>>>>>> products.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This
>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous
>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential
>>>>>>>>>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are
>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for
>>>>>>>>>>> delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>>>>>>>>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
>>>>>>>>>>> any of the information contained
>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you
>>>>>>>>>>> have received this transmission in error, please immediately
>>>>>>>>>>> notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission
>>>>>>>>>>> and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o%0b>>
>> >>>>>>>> rg>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 4:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com
>> <mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%0b>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Really? Not in my experience. Can you give us an example of
>>>>>>>>>>> what you mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/1/19, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> JAWS does this as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
>>>>>>>>>>>> Certified Specialist, Appellate Law The State Bar of
>>>>>>>>>>>> California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Holstein, Taylor and Unitt
>>>>>>>>>>>> A Professional Corporation
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103 Riverside, CA 92501
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com<http://www.holsteinlaw.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>>mailto:
>>> brianunitt at holsteinlaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3emailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.%0b>>
>> >>>>>>>>> org
>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o%0b>>
>> rg
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:30 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Kelby Carlson
>>>>>>>>>>>> <kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:
>> <mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For anybody who uses NVDA, you can tell if a quote is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> smart quote because NVDA will say left/right quote, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>> quote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/28/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair point, Ger. And then to hold me accountable going
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward
>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't fix them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com<mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com
>> <mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com%3cmailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com%0b>>
>> <mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com%3cmailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I must say, I think the appropriate course for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under-graduate Professors to have followed would have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would
>>> presumably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact on your future); and 2. To tell you they were doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so and why and explain the issues with content.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "substance,"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In
>>> fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tasked with drafting something for a client. This is why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really think this is in the back of people's minds...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much extra work are we going to need to put in to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make her work look presentable?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell. And they see this stuff and think, it'll only take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a second for me to fix this... No harm, no foul.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schemes turned on for highlighting. I never really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought about highlighting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be filled in when filing, such as the final word count
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the submission date. So although I would fill in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything, they were still in yellow. My assistant was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just changing everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how I knew she thought she was helping, and I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me she'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:
>> <mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostrophes are 8216 and
>>> 8217.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can also
>>> happen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise with the straight apostrophe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a go and see if it works for you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these
>>> symbols.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control+F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^39.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Placing a caret before the number causes word to search
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the ascii value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference whatsoever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the world do we learn these things while we're still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in school?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about double quotes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bottom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The widest point is at the top. There is only one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbol that represents the quotation mark, whether it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shaped similar to a print letter ?C,?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the right of the enclosed material, is shaped like a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards ?C,?
>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve faces to the left. It is almost like they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are enclosing the material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quotes, since the opening and closing quotes are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I really don?t see that very often. I don?t think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone please jump in and correct me
>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pasting it into this email.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>> Loeb and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loeb LLP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Washington, DC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com><http://www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com>><http://www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3chttp:/
>>> www.loeb.com/>><BR>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.loeb.com/>><BR>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOTICE:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, or a person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsible for delivering it to the intended
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information contained in or attached to this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission
>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its attachments without reading
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> g>> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto<mailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto>:
>>> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a smart quote?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> g<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces%0b>> >>>>>
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org>>> On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindla
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> %3cmailto:blindla%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:w at nfbnet.org%<mailto:w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:w at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Shannon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:
>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> sbg at sbgaal.com%3c<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3c>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%
>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%25%0b>>
>> 3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3c%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question was regarding knowing the difference between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you
>>> explain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>> %3cm<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal
>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal%0b>>
>> .com
>>> %3cm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material
>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forwarding without express permission is strictly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't quite understand what you are trying to ask.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out there who produce work of lesser visual quality,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind and clean up the work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the errors they make over and over again, and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people continue to believe
>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the blind person is not as capable as the rest of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This has happened to me also. I have even had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to figure out a way to address it." And then they did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give me some feedback.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junior partner told my friend not to say anything but,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit embarrassed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soft skills help we need, and we need to create
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that makes your documents look strange."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding employment discrimination. I have planned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations with a couple of attorneys responsible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for hiring associates
>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will ask them for more information. Laura, I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send you an email off-list to learn more from your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law
>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temporary position is ending next Monday. And,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months to find work, I have no employment lined up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I?m far too bitter at this point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and James have done an excellent job of giving you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all you should consider in looking to go to law school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rights related work in law school because I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to be placed in that box either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers in that area might be a bit more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding and educated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. Do not assume that those who practice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability rights law are any less susceptible to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educating folks on the reality that blind or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other issues, employment discrimination against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities in the legal profession.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are trying to provide education to members of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hopes that this will alleviate some
>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underlying causes of employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE?s, and publishing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writings like the blog post linked below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis%3cBR%3e%3<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis%3cBR%3e%3>
>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> m-Co
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mmitt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<B<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<B>
>>>>>>>> R%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> sm-C
>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ommitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good reasons for people like myself and Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pursuing a
>>> legal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proud
>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that for whatever it?s worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fill our sales.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence of
>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have worried that someone will see my GPA and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This
>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course irrational but still what I?m hearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law. I
>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reasons why is that I don?t want to be silo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a field which others expect me to enter. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don?t want to be limited to practice law in an area
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to one of my most visible and perceptibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limiting characteristics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most excepting field of practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictation errors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t have time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James? point is spot on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James?
>>> observation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that the experience a blind candidate may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possess by way of externships and internships does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not seem to assuage employers? concerns about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to practice. Despite my four externships during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school in which I was able to perform the work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think employers still doubt my abilities to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver the work they expect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shouldn?t my history of success in the workplace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in general have no issue trusting that I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable to do something, so long as I am not being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> securing volunteer or community involvement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities. .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:%0b>>
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%25>
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance in law school being seen as a parlor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license, I was asked in a
>>> job
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview how I got those things if I can?t read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a physical book. They seemed to be under the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impression that someone must have helped me with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all my
>>> schooling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated by other attorneys when they find out I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have my own firm versus how I was treated when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was first out of
>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and looking for a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to
>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intense than I thought it would be before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stimulus
>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart break.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> %20%25%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> %20%25%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some time now--that many employers pretty much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I think he's right, and it makes a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great deal of sense in light of my experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school, which is still extremely important
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the way, with all the things that law school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't prepare you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for: taking depositions, handling contentious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with any kind of visual aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these things before being?? seen as potentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do them in practice. I understand that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will
>>> soon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out if this is true in my own case. I also
>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance??
>>> setting,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the nature of the work. So, be prepared
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities
>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my
>>> naive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho
>>> Steele-Louchart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
>>> <mailt
>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> %3cmailt%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found hiring practices so far? Messages are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome on
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __ BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmail
>>> to>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>>><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>>>>
>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> rg%3 cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> rg%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chtt
>>>>>>>> p:/
>>> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%253%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%253%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3>
>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3ecBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>> %3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<BR>>>><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<BR>>>>>
>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /cjd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avis9
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> g/cj
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cj<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cj>
>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> davis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
>>> <mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3>
>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> g%3c BR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e>
>>>>>>>> g%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3chttp:/
>>> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>
>> --
>> Will Burley
>> Mobile: (713) 614-3322
>> Email: will.burley3 at gmail.com
>>
>> ?I think we all have empathy, but we may not have enough courage to
>> display it.? ?Maya Angelou
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall@blindlawyers.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall@blindlawyers.org>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:03:47 -0500
>> From: Lakeria Taylor <lakeria2009 at gmail.com>
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Scott Marshall <marshall at blindlawyers.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>> Discrimination
>> Message-ID: <75068EC9-7D47-4752-9558-8F5352C6434D at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Hi all,
>> Control alt v gives you paste special.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 3:51 AM, Scott Marshall via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Laura and everyone:
>>> Thank you! This email thread has been invaluable. My biggest word
>>> processing challenge is screwing up the formatting of documents that I
>>> did not create originally. I have not made the changes suggested here as
>>> yet, but it is on my to-do list for today for sure.
>>> Now if we only had a good solution for the track changes problem.
>>> The days of being the only author on a document are over.
>>> Thanks again.
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Will Burley via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 12:28 AM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Will Burley <will.burley3 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>>> Discrimination
>>>
>>> This conversation has been very welcomed!
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:43 PM Farber, Randy via BlindLaw <
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Laura - I am not in a place where I can double check, but I often use
>>>> paste special as text when I copy from programs. In Word the
>>>> keystrokes are to copy the text onto the clipboard and move to where
>>>> you want the text copied press Alt,e,s,u,u [do not press the commas,
>>>> just press the letters consecutively )
>>>>
>>>> I think this will copy the text using the format of the document into
>>>> which it is pasted.
>>>>
>>>> Is this your experience.
>>>>
>>>> There are also two keystrokes that I think help.
>>>> If you highlight text and then press Alt+space the formatting of the
>>>> text is removed.
>>>> There is a similar command to remove the paragraph formatting, but I
>>>> don't remember it right now.
>>>>
>>>> Randy
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk
>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 5:13 PM
>>>> To: Kelby Carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>; Blind Law Mailing List <
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Most important formatting advice I have -- Re:
>>>> Discrimination
>>>>
>>>> **RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER ? USE CAUTION**
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I am sharing this on list because I've gotten a few off-list responses
>>>> like the below message, and I want to make sure that everyone gets
>>>> this info. In my opinion, it's the biggest way to rid docs of
>>>> blindness-only formatting errors.
>>>>
>>>> By default, when you cut and paste into a word document from another
>>>> document, program, or website, Word will retain the original
>>>> formatting from that pasted text. That means that if you're fiile is
>>>> in Times New Roman size 12, but the text you paste is Calibri size 10,
>>>> you will be plopping a different font and size into your doc, and
>>>> anything you write going forward will be in that font and size. Same
>>>> goes for spacing, color, and any number of other attributes from
>>>> pasted text. My biggest piece of advice, and the advice I repeat most
>>>> often to blind folks, is to **turn this setting off!!.** It only
>>>> causes problems. And, in the rare instance where you do need to
>>>> preserve the original formatting, you can hit control immediately
>>>> after pasting and choose "keep source formatting," and any special
>>>> formatting will be retained.
>>>>
>>>> With so many iterations of word these days, I don't feel comfortable
>>>> typing out directions. But go spElunking in your ADVANCED word
>>>> options, Google, call Microsoft, whatever you need to do to find it.
>>>> Also note that there are two boxes, one for pasting between documents
>>>> and one for pasting between programs. They should both be set to
>>>> merge formatting. And while you're at it, turn off auto bullets and
>>>> auto numbering, and check the box that says "set left- and right-
>>>> indent with tabs and backspaces." This will mean you'll need to press
>>>> tab every time you start a new paragraph. However, it will also mean
>>>> that you won't have paragraphs randomly indented a third of the way
>>>> into the page because Word decided to do something stupid using its
>>>> very smart "auto" features.
>>>>
>>>> Also be aware that you will have to do this separately in outlook as
>>>> well. Though it uses Word as a text processor, it has its own set of
>>>> options.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, in the words of the infomercials, you should **immediately**
>>>> see **vast** and **life-changing** results! All kidding aside,
>>>> though, this is the first thing I do whenever I get a new job or
>>>> computer, and it has made an absolute world of difference to me and
>>>> the amount of errors that sighted folks need to fix.
>>>>
>>>> Happy formatting,
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/2/19, Kelby Carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Laura,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is definitely helpful. I admit I am not proficient at using a
>>>>> Braille display with my screen reader, and I'm sure this would be
>>>>> helpful. Do you use UEB to proof for things like formatting? In my
>>>>> experience it gives far more specific results than regular US braille.
>>>>> I assume you would still need some formatting such as fonts and
>>>>> colors spoken. (I only recently figured out that oftentimes color is
>>>>> included in things I copy and paste which ends up making certain
>>>>> sections of documents look very odd; thankfully my office is pretty
>>>>> good at bringing these formatting errors to my attention.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully these questions aren't bothersome; I have definitely
>>>>> realized how important these factors are since beginning work and I
>>>>> am still working out the best way of ensuring visual consistency in
>>>>> my documents.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/2/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A nonbreaking space, like a nonbreaking hyphen, means that word
>>>>>> wrap will not break up whatever is on either side of it. So, for
>>>>>> instance, if you had the word burden--shifting, and for some reason
>>>>>> burden ended up on one line and shifting on another, you'd replace
>>>>>> the dash with a nonbreaking hyphen so that the word wouldn't be
>>>>>> chopped. A nonbreaking space is, in my experience, customarily
>>>>>> used between section and paragraph symbols and the number so as to
>>>>>> keep the two together. It's also used in between the periods of an
>>>>>> ellipsis. This all depends on the custom of the firm or court you
>>>>>> work for, of course. There is a setting in Jaws that is supposed
>>>>>> to read out nonbreaking characters (you can find it by activating
>>>>>> quick settings and typing in the word breaking), but this is
>>>>>> currently not functioning. Vispero is aware and has escalated it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for formatting, I do most of my proofing in Braille. But I have
>>>>>> turned on the setting where Jaws will tell me when spacing changes,
>>>>>> which I find very helpful. I also have punctuation set to some,
>>>>>> but I've added some customary marks into that, like quotation marks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this is helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/2/19, kelby carlson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> How much formatting information do you all have your screen reader
>>>>>>> read as you are reading through a text? I now have mine set up to
>>>>>>> read close to everything while I'm in Word, and while it is kind
>>>>>>> of distracting it seems necessary for proofing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would love to know if there is anywhere that discusses the
>>>>>>> different kinds of hyphens and when to use them. And I have no
>>>>>>> idea what a non-breaking space is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Great I?m glad the workaround is working again! By the way you
>>>>>>>> can
>>>> also
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> this to make Jaws pronounce non-breaking spaces, which also got
>>>>>>>> broken somewhere along the way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:40 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Laura, I have Word 2016. I just changed the entries for \8220
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> \8221
>>>>>>>>> to left quote and right quote, respectively, in WordClassic.jdf.
>>>>>>>>> By default, both were set to the quote symbol (not sure which
>>>>>>>>> one). The changes seem to have taken. I think I will have to
>>>>>>>>> make sure I do
>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> for other dictionary files as well. Hopefully it works for you
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/well.+Hopefully+it+works+for+you?entry=gmail&source=g<https://www.google.com/maps/search/well.+Hopefully+it+works+for+you?entry=gmail&source=g>>.
>>>> I?m
>>>>>>>>> excited to have these pronounced differently.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Angie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>>>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>>>>>> [Loeb & Loeb LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>> Loeb
>>>>>>>>> and Loeb LLP
>>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC |
>>>>>>>>> San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
>>>>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com><http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura
>>>>>>>>> Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 6:27 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Great! I will try again tomorrow. I just updated again today. I
>>>>>>>>> have ms word 2016, but I don't see why that would affect the
>>>>>>>>> dictionary manager.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Laura,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the most recent update of JAWS 2019 and office 365.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
>>>>>>>>>> Certified Specialist in Appellate Law By The State Bar of
>>>>>>>>>> California Holstein, Taylor and Unitt A Professional
>>>>>>>>>> Corporation
>>>>>>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103
>>>>>>>>>> Riverside, CA 92501
>>>>>>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
>>>>>>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
>>>>>>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com<http://www.holsteinlaw.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>mailto:
>>>> brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 3:02 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brian,
>>>>>>>>>> I used to do this, but I mentioned in an earlier message that
>>>>>>>>>> I'm no longer able to get the dictionary to change those
>>>>>>>>>> pronunciations.
>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>> tole Vispero and they've replicated it. Are you using the
>>>>>>>>>> latest version of Jaws and is it working for you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It also does this if the document is an email attachment and
>>>>>>>>>>> viewed in html form.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 10:37 PM, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have found that JAWS will do this if you have smart quotes
>>>>>>>>>>>> in a text file in notepad. I wish it did it in Word and
>>>>>>>>>>>> outlook. Since it does do it in Notepad, it seems it would
>>>>>>>>>>>> not be that difficult to port the behavior over to the Office
>>>>>>>>>>>> products.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential
>>>>>>>>>>>> information that is legally privileged. If you are
>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> the intended recipient, or a person responsible for
>>>>>>>>>>>> delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>>>>>>>>>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
>>>>>>>>>>>> any of the information contained
>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have received this transmission in error, please immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>> notify the sender. Please destroy the original transmission
>>>>>>>>>>>> and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>> rg>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 4:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Really? Not in my experience. Can you give us an example of
>>>>>>>>>>>> what you mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/1/19, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> JAWS does this as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian C. Unitt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certified Specialist, Appellate Law The State Bar of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Holstein, Taylor and Unitt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Professional Corporation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4300 Latham Street, Suite 103 Riverside, CA 92501
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: 951-682-7030
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: 951-684-8061
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.holsteinlaw.com<http://www.holsteinlaw.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>><http://www.holsteinlaw.com<BR>>>>>mailto:
>>>> brianunitt at holsteinlaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3emailto:brianunitt at holsteinlaw%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> org
>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>> rg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:30 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Kelby Carlson
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> kelbycarlson at gmail.com%3cmailto:kelbycarlson at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For anybody who uses NVDA, you can tell if a quote is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> smart quote because NVDA will say left/right quote, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/28/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair point, Ger. And then to hold me accountable going
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward
>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't fix them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/25/19, Gerard Sadlier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com<mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com%3cmailto:gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I must say, I think the appropriate course for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under-graduate Professors to have followed would have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Mark on the substance (since to do otherwise would
>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect your grades and therefore have a disproportionate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact on your future); and 2. To tell you they were doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so and why and explain the issues with content.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, exactly. I submitted paper upon paper upon paper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in undergrad with these errors. I was judged based on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "substance,"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the profs thought was "equitable." In
>>>> fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because no one's going to care about "equity" when you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tasked with drafting something for a client. This is why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really think this is in the back of people's minds...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much extra work are we going to need to put in to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make her work look presentable?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you are right, Angie. People just don't think to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell. And they see this stuff and think, it'll only take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a second for me to fix this... No harm, no foul.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My example is that I never had Braille marking/sound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schemes turned on for highlighting. I never really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought about highlighting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But people at my Firm would highlight things that needed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be filled in when filing, such as the final word count
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the submission date. So although I would fill in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything, they were still in yellow. My assistant was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just changing everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After I had yet another uncomfortable conversation about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how I knew she thought she was helping, and I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated it, etc etc etc etc etc, she told me she'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure to tell me if anything similar came up in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> laura.wolk at gmail.com%3cmailto:laura.wolk at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ha. You are all proving my point, sadly. The same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to me, except htat my law review editor pointed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it out. The same thing happens with an apostrophe. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "straight" apostrophe is ascii value 39, and curly smart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostrophes are 8216 and
>>>> 8217.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hate to tell you, Angie, but any apostrophes would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come out as straight when drafted in note pad too. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can also
>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when copy/pasting from Westlaw or briefs or pdfs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been asking people at Vispero to make it possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to customize the Jaws word dictionary so that you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add 34 and replace it with the word "straight quote" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise with the straight apostrophe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This used to work, but doesn't anymore. But since Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be so tempermental these days, you might give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a go and see if it works for you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And no, there is no Braille differences between these
>>>> symbols.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, check for underlying ascii values. I also do a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control+F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before submitting any document, searching for a ^34 and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^39.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Placing a caret before the number causes word to search
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the ascii value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fascinating. JAWS doesn't tell me there's any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference whatsoever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you access the ASCII information? Similarly, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the world do we learn these things while we're still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in school?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will do my best to describe them. I will only talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about double quotes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Straight quotes are tapered, with the narrow end at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bottom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The widest point is at the top. There is only one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbol that represents the quotation mark, whether it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is an opening quote or a closing quote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Curly quotes are also tapered, with the narrow point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the bottom, but they are curved. The opening quote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shaped similar to a print letter ?C,?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve facing to the right. The closing quote, on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the right of the enclosed material, is shaped like a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards ?C,?
>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its curve faces to the left. It is almost like they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are enclosing the material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess literary braille technically uses smart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quotes, since the opening and closing quotes are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I guess you could use two apostrophes to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent both opening and closing quotes in braille,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I really don?t see that very often. I don?t think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille has an equivalent for the straight quote, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone please jump in and correct me
>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Here is a sentence enclosed in smart quotes.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Here is a sentence enclosed in straight quotes."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I created the second sentence by typing in Notepad and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pasting it into this email.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you tell the difference?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US Attorney at Law [Loeb & Loeb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LLP]<http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>> Loeb and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loeb LLP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax:202.403.3407 |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-mail:amatney at loeb.com<mailto:amatney at loeb.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Washington, DC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | San Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com><http://www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com>><http://www.loeb.com<http://www.loeb.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://www.loeb.com/<http://www.loeb.com/>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3chttp:/
>>>> www.loeb.com/>><BR>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.loeb.com/>><BR>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> <%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e%3e> ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOTICE:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential information that is legally privileged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, or a person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsible for delivering it to the intended
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information contained in or attached to this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmission in error, please immediately notify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sender. Please destroy the original transmission and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its attachments without reading
>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saving in any manner. Thank you, Loeb & Loeb LLP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> g>> On Behalf Of Ray Wayne via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com<mailto:
>>>> rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com%3cmailto:rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering that also. Is there a Braille symbol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a smart quote?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Wayne, New York City
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.or%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> g<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> %3cmailto:blindlaw-bounces%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @nfbnet.org>>> On Behalf Of Shannon via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindla
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> %3cmailto:blindla%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> w at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:w at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Shannon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:
>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com%3c
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%
>>>> 3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3c%0b>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Laura,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once. My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question was regarding knowing the difference between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a straight and smart quote/apostrophe?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure I know what a smart quote is. Can you
>>>> explain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon Brady Geihsler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1212 Texas Avenue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lubbock, Texas 79401
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Office: (806) 763-3999
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: (806) 781-9296
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (806) 749-3752
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com<mailto:sbg at sbgaal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>> %3cm<mailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal.com%3cmailto:sbg at sbgaal
>>>> .com
>>>> %3cm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ailto:sbg at sbgaal.com>> This email may contain material
>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> review, reliance or distribution by others or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forwarding without express permission is strictly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Laura Wolk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shannon, would you mind repeating your question? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't quite understand what you are trying to ask.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As to the broader conversation, I think what I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get at is that we have to face the sad but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true reality that there are, in fact, blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out there who produce work of lesser visual quality,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose firms or legal assistants or whatever come along
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind and clean up the work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens. And no one ever tells the person, so, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angie said, the person continues to remain unaware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the errors they make over and over again, and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people continue to believe
>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the blind person is not as capable as the rest of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This has happened to me also. I have even had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations where I initially pressed the superior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to give me blind specific feedback, they said nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was wrong, then I pressed and said "this is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important to me. Whatever you tell me, I will be able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to figure out a way to address it." And then they did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give me some feedback.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend and former co-clerk works with a blind guy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed that his emails were formatted whackily. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junior partner told my friend not to say anything but,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being friends with me, he knew it was the right thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, the blind attorney was very grateful and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit embarrassed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the stuff I'm talking about. We need to be real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soft skills help we need, and we need to create
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awareness that is indeed OK to tell a blind person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hey, Just an FYI, you are occasionally doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that makes your documents look strange."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for such an enlightening discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding employment discrimination. I have planned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations with a couple of attorneys responsible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for hiring associates
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will ask them for more information. Laura, I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send you an email off-list to learn more from your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/19, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was able to secure a temporary position at my law
>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following graduation and licensure. Now, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temporary position is ending next Monday. And,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite my wholehearted efforts over the last 6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months to find work, I have no employment lined up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Somewhat jokingly) I?m far too bitter at this point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to sell someone on a career in law. I think Meredith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and James have done an excellent job of giving you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all you should consider in looking to go to law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was initially reluctant to do any disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rights related work in law school because I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to be placed in that box either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, I looked for work in that area assuming that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers in that area might be a bit more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding and educated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. Do not assume that those who practice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability rights law are any less susceptible to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the biases, misperceptions, or lack of understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that leads to employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the best thing to do, James, is to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educating folks on the reality that blind or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired attorneys are as capable as their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted counterparts in all but a very few ways. My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local bar has created a Taskforce to address, among
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other issues, employment discrimination against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities in the legal profession.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are trying to provide education to members of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bar on the capacity of lawyers with disabilities in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hopes that this will alleviate some
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underlying causes of employment discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is done by presenting at meetings of the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bench and bar, hosting CLE?s, and publishing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writings like the blog post linked below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis%3cBR%3e%3<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalis%3cBR%3e%3>
>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> m-Co
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mmitt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<B<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionali<B>
>>>>>>>>> R%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> sm-C
>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C<https://www.wakecountybar.org/blogpost/727449/Professionalism-C>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ommitt%3cBR%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Maura Kutnyak via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cody, James, Meredith, what might you all offer as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good reasons for people like myself and Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pursuing a
>>>> legal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree? I took the LSAT this past Saturday. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proud
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that for whatever it?s worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That said, it can be hard to persevere when such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotes provide a majority of what we used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fill our sales.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I have often been paranoid about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence of
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon such as the one you indicate Cody. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have worried that someone will see my GPA and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow assume that all of my professors have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independently decided to be generous and grant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grades which I do not deserve. This
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course irrational but still what I?m hearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports that fear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am interested in a few different areas of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law. I
>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not particularly drawn to disability rights. One of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reasons why is that I don?t want to be silo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a field which others expect me to enter. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don?t want to be limited to practice law in an area
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to one of my most visible and perceptibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limiting characteristics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of that said, I can see how that may be the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most excepting field of practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damn darn heck! Anyway, please forgive some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictation errors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am following my one year-old around as I compose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t have time to perfect this dispatch.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much everyone for your insight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Cody Davis via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James? point is spot on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I find even more disturbing than James?
>>>> observation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that the experience a blind candidate may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possess by way of externships and internships does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not seem to assuage employers? concerns about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to practice. Despite my four externships during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school in which I was able to perform the work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned to the satisfaction of my supervisors, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think employers still doubt my abilities to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver the work they expect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shouldn?t my history of success in the workplace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence my ability to thrive in practice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have also found that fellow attorneys and people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in general have no issue trusting that I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable to do something, so long as I am not being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid to do it. I have absolutely no problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> securing volunteer or community involvement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities. .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Meredith Ballard via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you summed it up perfectly with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance in law school being seen as a parlor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license, I was asked in a
>>>> job
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview how I got those things if I can?t read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a physical book. They seemed to be under the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impression that someone must have helped me with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all my
>>>> schooling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated by other attorneys when they find out I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have my own firm versus how I was treated when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was first out of
>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and looking for a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you work for yourself other attorneys see you as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone they can potentially work with and it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to
>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intense than I thought it would be before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entering the profession.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meredith Ballard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%
>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stimulus
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart break.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%20%
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> %20%25%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> %20%25%0b>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind, also an attorney, practicing for quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some time now--that many employers pretty much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at a blind person's success in law school as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a "parlor trick"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not an indication of your ability to thrive in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice. I think he's right, and it makes a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great deal of sense in light of my experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too many employers do not equate doing well in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law school, which is still extremely important
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the way, with all the things that law school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't prepare you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for: taking depositions, handling contentious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, and, of course, handling evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with any kind of visual aspect to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost have to prove that you can do all of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these things before being?? seen as potentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do them in practice. I understand that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are somewhat less grim for people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have clerkships. I will
>>>> soon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out if this is true in my own case. I also
>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if the same fears cloud employers'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judgments in a transactional or compliance??
>>>> setting,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the nature of the work. So, be prepared
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lot of rejection, but still be the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible candidate, so that you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive for opportunities
>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my
>>>> naive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self thought when I was first licensed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho
>>>> Steele-Louchart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
>>>> <mailt
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> %3cmailt%0b>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o:blindlaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found hiring practices so far? Messages are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome on
>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __ BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmail
>>>> to>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>>><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>>>>
>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> rg%3 cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> rg%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3chtt
>>>>>>>>> p:/
>>>> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%253%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%253%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3>
>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3ecBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>> %3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<BR>>>><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<BR>>>>>
>>>> %3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /cjd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avis9
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> g/cj
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cj<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cj>
>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> davis9%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 193%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> <mailto<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg
>>>> <mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org%3cmailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3>
>>>> e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> g%3c BR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or>
>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR><http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.or<BR>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e%3e>
>>>>>>>>> g%3cBR%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e%3e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %3chttp:/
>>>> nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.o>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Will Burley
>>> Mobile: (713) 614-3322
>>> Email: will.burley3 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> ?I think we all have empathy, but we may not have enough courage to
>>> display it.? ?Maya Angelou
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall@blindlawyers.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/marshall@blindlawyers.org>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009@gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lakeria2009@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of BlindLaw Digest, Vol 185, Issue 12
>> *****************************************
>>
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>>
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