From vaughnlbrown87 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 19:05:39 2023
From: vaughnlbrown87 at gmail.com (Vaughn Brown)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2023 11:05:39 -0800
Subject: [blindLaw] City of Vancouver ADA Coordinator  Position Open
In-Reply-To: <05c301d94997$b616fef0$2244fcd0$@gmail.com>
References: <05c301d94997$b616fef0$2244fcd0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5502A613-D738-488C-9442-C74AEAB407C0@gmail.com>

Hello All,

	For those who live in Clark County, WA this is a great opportunity to put your advocacy skills to work! The City of Vancouver in Washington is seeking an ADA coordinator. This is a brand new and shiny position that I helped create. However as I do not live in Vancouver anymore I am hoping someone on this list will apply or share with their networks.
https://cityofvancouver.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/COV/job/LOC0075-City-Hall---3rd-Floor/ADA-Coordinator---limited-term_23-0068 <https://cityofvancouver.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/COV/job/LOC0075-City-Hall---3rd-Floor/ADA-Coordinator---limited-term_23-0068>

Thank you for sharing!

Warmly,

Vaughn

From tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 19:27:20 2023
From: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com (tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2023 14:27:20 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] City of Vancouver ADA Coordinator  Position Open
In-Reply-To: <5502A613-D738-488C-9442-C74AEAB407C0@gmail.com>
References: <05c301d94997$b616fef0$2244fcd0$@gmail.com>
 <5502A613-D738-488C-9442-C74AEAB407C0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01d94ecf$57834dc0$0689e940$@gmail.com>

Thanks for sharing. This position lists a driver abstract as a requirement
at the end of the posting. It should say "driver abstract, if applicable." 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Vaughn Brown via
BlindLaw
Sent: Saturday, March 4, 2023 2:06 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Vaughn Brown <vaughnlbrown87 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] City of Vancouver ADA Coordinator Position Open

Hello All,

	For those who live in Clark County, WA this is a great opportunity
to put your advocacy skills to work! The City of Vancouver in Washington is
seeking an ADA coordinator. This is a brand new and shiny position that I
helped create. However as I do not live in Vancouver anymore I am hoping
someone on this list will apply or share with their networks.
https://cityofvancouver.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/COV/job/LOC0075-City-Hal
l---3rd-Floor/ADA-Coordinator---limited-term_23-0068
<https://cityofvancouver.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/COV/job/LOC0075-City-Ha
ll---3rd-Floor/ADA-Coordinator---limited-term_23-0068>

Thank you for sharing!

Warmly,

Vaughn
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m



From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com  Sun Mar  5 19:59:37 2023
From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2023 19:59:37 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Accessibility of Discovery Platforms
Message-ID: <CAGZitzJdm7E9DX_M1FFkp3HJKD7WM3vYnxA5DaJewW2F-xnXFg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

I've emailed on this list previously about the accessibility of
discovery review platforms. The platform we have, Reveal, still seems
quite inaccessible. Does anyone have experience with it or indeed with
another platform?

Kind regards

Ger


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Tue Mar  7 22:20:10 2023
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 22:20:10 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Report: 39% Federal Leaders Rate Accessibility as a Top
 Priority - Government Executive - March 6, 2023
In-Reply-To: <SA0PR09MB70012F640AB59BB2C4FC3E4D95B79@SA0PR09MB7001.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SA0PR09MB70012F640AB59BB2C4FC3E4D95B79@SA0PR09MB7001.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SA9PR09MB54542F603F9D4D4F10EC3100F9B79@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>


https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2023/03/report-39-federal-leaders-rate-accessibility-top-priority/383630/
Report: 39% Federal Leaders Rate Accessibility as a Top Priority
By Kirsten Errick
Government Executive
March 6, 2023

Budget constraints and old technology add challenges to fully realizing digital accessibility.
The public sector is making progress to make service delivery and customer experience more equitable and accessible to people, according to an Ernst & Young underwritten report<https://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/en_us/noindex/ey-digital-access-and-equity-in-public-sector-report.pdf> issued Thursday.
According to the report-which surveyed government customer experience and IT leaders-39% of federal respondents said making sure "constituents of all abilities can easily obtain the information and services they seek" was a top priority.
Moreover, about 70% of federal respondents stated their agency has a formal accessibility policy or framework in place for physical or mobility disabilities. Meanwhile, the report stated that more federal agencies had frameworks for blindness or low vision (54%) and deafness or hard of hearing (58%) than state and local respondents. However, state and local agencies surpassed the government for formal documents addressing the needs of those with limited English, limited digital literacy and limited or unreliable broadband and digital access.
Those formal policies also tracked with agencies' tendencies to consult impacted populations, as "federal respondents have been more active than state and local respondents over the past 12-24 months in surveying various population groups about accessibility needs-particularly the hard-of-hearing." However, state and local agencies are surveying those with limited English fluency, digital literacy and broadband or digital access issues more than the federal government.
Meanwhile, about 80% of federal respondents said their leaders are mindful of the potential obstacles "all" or "some" populations can experience when interacting or accessing agency information and services.
According to the report, approximately half of respondents stated their agency utilizes universal design-or creating products and environments accessible to a people regardless of ability, disability or other characteristics, so as many people as possible can utilize it. However, 22% of federal respondents focused their design on different disability groups and about 30% of federal focused on meeting regulatory requirements. The report found that two-thirds of federal respondents noted their agency is continuing to innovate to improve access.
As noted in the report, federal agencies were often further along in the maturity process to meet accessibility needs. For example, 21% of federal respondents stated they fully achieved or optimized barrier-free, equal access to digital products, services and content, in comparison to 12% for state and local respondents. In addition, 31% of federal respondents had fully established web content accessibility guideline standards; 40% had reached full compliance with diversity, equity and inclusion standards and 26% were fully mature in promoting digital accessibility.
The report found that respondents thought that constituents with disabilities were less satisfied with access to content and services than those without disabilities, and 52% of federal respondents noted that general accessibility training would help improve constituents' digital access.
According to the report, a lack of a sufficient budget is a challenge for delivering accessibility, as is the reliance on legacy technology. Federal respondents were also more likely to receive outside help to address accessibility.




From glnorman15 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  8 13:50:39 2023
From: glnorman15 at hotmail.com (GL Norman)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 13:50:39 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] PMAA Seminar Virtual
Message-ID: <MN2PR02MB675053C0B07A0409BD916387D1B49@MN2PR02MB6750.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

>From Gary C. Norman, Esq. L.L.M.
Greetings:
Find the seminar indicated below. I hope you can attend with me.
As background, I serve as pro bono counsel to the alumni association for Presidential Management Fellows. I am incredibly inspired by our Board members as well as the impressive network the organization serves.

Seminar: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZcsde-urTIpE9VyTUYU49Xh6UgvAsr-ijse

Along a similar point, find the below opportunities to connect.

  1.  My mentee, Richard, in the Leadership Academy of the Maryland State Bar Association and I have a session on mental health, lawyers, and the courts, at the 2023 Partners for Justice conference in Baltimore. If you are near-by, hope you stop-by or have café with us after.
  2.  In Ocean City, Maryland, at the annual meeting for the state bar association, we will have a morning forum (with light food) discussing lawyers and law students with disabilities. If you are a lawyer, attending the annual meeting, please join the 2023-24 President Elect, my mentee, and I at this forum.








From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 05:53:27 2023
From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 05:53:27 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Accessibility of Discovery Platforms
In-Reply-To: <CAGZitzJdm7E9DX_M1FFkp3HJKD7WM3vYnxA5DaJewW2F-xnXFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGZitzJdm7E9DX_M1FFkp3HJKD7WM3vYnxA5DaJewW2F-xnXFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGZitz+jkGzZaMkkipNpa0UppuE13FZccRY52LijH9Qmz+dA5g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

I've emailed on this list previously about the accessibility of
discovery review platforms. The platform we have, Reveal, still seems
quite inaccessible. Does anyone have experience with it or indeed with
another platform?

Note, I tried to send this to the list a few days ago but not sure if
it went through or not. If it did, my apologies for a further posting.

Kind regards

Ger


From sbadillo100 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 14:17:37 2023
From: sbadillo100 at gmail.com (Sarah Badillo)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 09:17:37 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
Message-ID: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

Sent from my iPhone

From rodalcidonis at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 15:13:01 2023
From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 10:13:01 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
References: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501d95299$a4276760$ec763620$@gmail.com>

Hi Sara:

Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.

If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.


Rod,




Rod Alcidonis



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com



From wmodnl at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  9 15:23:11 2023
From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 15:23:11 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
Message-ID: <SN6PR05MB393328928F4228E53E9EC532DCB59@SN6PR05MB3933.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Good point I hope you’re doing great Rod.

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 09:14, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Sara:
> 
> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
> 
> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
> 
> 
> Rod,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rod Alcidonis
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> 
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com

From NSingh at cov.com  Thu Mar  9 16:38:36 2023
From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:38:36 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <001501d95299$a4276760$ec763620$@gmail.com>
References: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
 <001501d95299$a4276760$ec763620$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <338d422fcb7c4d509be45e09fbf8473a@cov.com>

I largely agree with this. Have as many examples of matters, projects, research, or whatever you handled as possible. Give detail about your approach, organization, work product, contribution within the larger picture, etc. Going into the assistive tech and non-visual techniques is not productive, but the detail of your anecdotes will convey that you can and do get work done.

The only time you have to go more into accommodations is when you have a test or skills assessment as part of the interview. It is not uncommon to take a timed writing exam for some positions. At that point, you want to discuss accommodations so you can take the exam and perform well on it.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:13 AM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: rodalcidonis at gmail.com; 'Sarah Badillo' <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

[EXTERNAL]

Hi Sara:

Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.

If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.


Rod,




Rod Alcidonis



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com

From jtfetter at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  9 16:56:46 2023
From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:56:46 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
References: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5.ref@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5@yahoo.com>

I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Sara:
> 
> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
> 
> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
> 
> 
> Rod,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rod Alcidonis
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> 
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com



From agtolentino at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 17:18:52 2023
From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 09:18:52 -0800
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5@yahoo.com>
References: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>

Good morning,
I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Sara:
>> 
>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>> 
>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>> 
>> 
>> Rod,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Rod Alcidonis
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>> 
>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com


From angie.matney at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 17:40:44 2023
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:40:44 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>

I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my blindness prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took when interviewing with my two previous firms. Things were different with my current position because several colleagues from my prior firm lateraled to my current firm before I did, so people knew about my blindness from the get-go. I generally ask interviewers if they are interested in the technology I use. Sometimes, they ask for more information, though resulting discussions are generally pretty high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first interview if I thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably would not do so in most cases. Interesting to read the different prospectives of others. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Good morning,
> I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Sara:
>>> 
>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>>> 
>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rod,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>> 
>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com


From laurenbishop96 at icloud.com  Thu Mar  9 18:16:54 2023
From: laurenbishop96 at icloud.com (Lauren Bishop)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 13:16:54 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
References: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C76162F-97C9-4C02-888C-EA0EF5CED87C@icloud.com>

Good afternoon,
You don’t have to disclose your visual impairment in an interview. Last legal internship I had, I disclosed it after the offer was made.   Know that a lot of places are doing zoom interviews, they will likely not know that you were visually impaired. This gives them an opportunity to discuss your unique skills, and what you can bring to the table.  if questions about your visual impairment to come up, you can always answer them the best you can.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laurenbishop96%40icloud.com


From jlynnbarrow at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 20:08:48 2023
From: jlynnbarrow at gmail.com (jlynnbarrow at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 15:08:48 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>

I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to an interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may shift when applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In practice, I have ended up disclosing either disability generally or blindness specifically in many of my cover letters for public interest positions. It's of course an individualized assessment based on each job announcement.

-Jen 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my blindness prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took when interviewing with my two previous firms. Things were different with my current position because several colleagues from my prior firm lateraled to my current firm before I did, so people knew about my blindness from the get-go. I generally ask interviewers if they are interested in the technology I use. Sometimes, they ask for more information, though resulting discussions are generally pretty high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first interview if I thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably would not do so in most cases. Interesting to read the different prospectives of others. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Good morning,
> I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Sara:
>>> 
>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>>> 
>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rod,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>> 
>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gmail.com



From NSingh at cov.com  Thu Mar  9 21:50:41 2023
From: NSingh at cov.com (Singh, Nandini)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:50:41 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Accessibility of Discovery Platforms
In-Reply-To: <CAGZitz+jkGzZaMkkipNpa0UppuE13FZccRY52LijH9Qmz+dA5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGZitzJdm7E9DX_M1FFkp3HJKD7WM3vYnxA5DaJewW2F-xnXFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGZitz+jkGzZaMkkipNpa0UppuE13FZccRY52LijH9Qmz+dA5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10ada189aeea4abcbaaa31320a61767e@cov.com>

Hi Ger,

I believe your message did indeed go through. I suspect most folks might not have much to say, and I have been working on two projects due at the end of the week, which delayed my response to you. I actually have a bunch to say on the topic. I will, however, try to keep my comments brief.

Legal services support technology, like e-discovery software, generally has plenty to be desired regarding screen reader accessibility. It is very unfortunate because there is no fundamental reason why underlying code could not be written to work better with screen readers. E-discovery platforms are mostly databases (and far from the most sophisticated ones) with an interface that folks without computer science degrees, i.e. lawyers, can feel comfortable using to run searches, review documents, and prepare materials for production.

I have worked--not really--with Relativity, a popular document review platform application, in addition to my firm's in-house one. Both are intensely frustrating to use with JAWS. Items are not labeled well or require a mouse to activate. For browser-based platforms, I have often had to contend with cursor focus issues as well, making it challenging to jump from different parts of the main screen: main document for review, review panel, menu of preferences. As a result, I try to develop a close relationship with litigation support, individuals with the computer science and technical background who maintain the database for the attorneys. I craft searches for them to execute for me. They give me hit counts, and I then request a print to PDF for offline review, or else I refine the search, sometimes with the specialists's input.

The above is not my favorite solution, but it does work and has allowed me to do what I have to do by way of fact development and deposition/interview prep. It does get a bit tricky if I am trying to understand different forks of an email exchange or track down different drafts of a hot/key document, like a final memorandum or slide deck. For that detailed, detective-type work, I enlist the assistance of the paralegal or contract attorney assigned to the matter. We have a call, so I can explain the precise factual context and illuminate the story, as far as I understand from the materials I have at the time, to permit the paralegal or contract attorney to take a deeper dive limited in time and the custodians/people involved in the documents.

I will underscore that even if you cannot use the review platforms, you should learn how they work. You need not know where to click for each command. But you should know what your platform is capable of doing so you can guide someone else to run searches for you, construct review coding or tagging panels for you, retrieve documents for you, or print documents in a specific order for you.

You should also let your organization know and the e-discovery vendor know about the accessibility issue. Software developers really need to see that this is a problem worth the time and attention. Right now, I consider it a victory if I can educate sales reps or designers about JAWS. How and when feedback turns into better product coding, I am not sure. But in the meanwhile, I, like you, still have cases to move forward, so please treat the support staff around you with kindness and respect, because they will help you bridge much of the gap that non-inclusive technology design presents.

And so much for my earlier declared brevity. I write all this out because while I appreciate that many here spend time on Westlaw or Lexis, there are so many other products that lawyers use. People with an investigations or trial practice spend probably years of their lives with e-discovery products, and those products present some very cool features overall but some non-trivial accessibility issues at the same time.

Regards,
Nikki

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:53 AM
To: blindlaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Gerard Sadlier <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Accessibility of Discovery Platforms

[EXTERNAL]

Hi all

I've emailed on this list previously about the accessibility of
discovery review platforms. The platform we have, Reveal, still seems
quite inaccessible. Does anyone have experience with it or indeed with
another platform?

Note, I tried to send this to the list a few days ago but not sure if
it went through or not. If it did, my apologies for a further posting.

Kind regards

Ger

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com


From paulharpur at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 23:39:56 2023
From: paulharpur at gmail.com (Paul Harpur)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:39:56 +1000
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
 <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>

If you are blind the law firm, government or NGO will probably want to
know how you operate.  so I ask for a separate interview to discuss
the how I operate being blind.  so I take the disability out of the
interview 100% by putting it into a separate interview process.  it
gives me the advantage of meeting people, sometimes before the other
interview.  thatis really neat incidentally.  you get to meet the ITS
person, perhaps a lawyer or partner or director.  you get a relaxed
opportunity.  then in the work interview you have some of the
relationships you can build upon.
hiding is understandable, but the problem is you get the firms that
may not hire someone with a disability.
If you can, get contact with partners before applying.  grad jobs are
harder obviously, but that is still viable.
also talk to your profs about thier contacts during the degree.


On 3/10/23, Jen Barrow via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to an
> interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may shift when
> applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In practice, I have
> ended up disclosing either disability generally or blindness specifically in
> many of my cover letters for public interest positions. It's of course an
> individualized assessment based on each job announcement.
>
> -Jen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>
> I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my blindness
> prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took when interviewing
> with my two previous firms. Things were different with my current position
> because several colleagues from my prior firm lateraled to my current firm
> before I did, so people knew about my blindness from the get-go. I generally
> ask interviewers if they are interested in the technology I use. Sometimes,
> they ask for more information, though resulting discussions are generally
> pretty high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I
> can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first interview if I
> thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably would not do so in
> most cases. Interesting to read the different prospectives of others.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Good morning,
>> I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject
>> and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in
>> that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new
>> systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however
>> inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off
>> what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found
>> that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about
>> diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can
>> improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the
>>> focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do
>>> the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing
>>> accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The
>>> interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but
>>> if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sara:
>>>>
>>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually
>>>> impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the
>>>> interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to
>>>> convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable
>>>> accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be
>>>> evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>>>>
>>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a
>>>> trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally
>>>> do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a
>>>> blindness assistive technology education.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo
>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>>>
>>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while
>>>> visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary
>>>> to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the
>>>> interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the
>>>> best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the
>>>> biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an
>>>> attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us,
>>>> whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice
>>>> would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com
>


From rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com  Fri Mar 10 00:01:28 2023
From: rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com (Rob Hudson)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:01:28 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
 <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
 <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230310.000128.831.31@[192.168.1.100]>

It's sad that with all the screaming about diversity, equity and inclusion, =
we are still lef tfar, far behind.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Harpur via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Paul Harpur <paulharpur at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:39:56 +1000
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

> If you are blind the law firm, government or NGO will probably want to
know how you operate.  so I ask for a separate interview to discuss
the how I operate being blind.  so I take the disability out of the
interview 100% by putting it into a separate interview process.  it
gives me the advantage of meeting people, sometimes before the other
interview.  thatis really neat incidentally.  you get to meet the ITS
person, perhaps a lawyer or partner or director.  you get a relaxed
opportunity.  then in the work interview you have some of the
relationships you can build upon.
hiding is understandable, but the problem is you get the firms that
may not hire someone with a disability.
If you can, get contact with partners before applying.  grad jobs are
harder obviously, but that is still viable.
also talk to your profs about thier contacts during the degree.


On 3/10/23, Jen Barrow via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to an
> interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may shift when
> applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In practice, I have
> ended up disclosing either disability generally or blindness specifically =
in
> many of my cover letters for public interest positions. It's of course an
> individualized assessment based on each job announcement.
>
> -Jen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>
> I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my =
blindness
> prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took when =
interviewing
> with my two previous firms. Things were different with my current position
> because several colleagues from my prior firm lateraled to my current firm
> before I did, so people knew about my blindness from the get-go. I =
generally
> ask interviewers if they are interested in the technology I use. =
Sometimes,
> they ask for more information, though resulting discussions are generally
> pretty high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates =
I
> can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first interview =
if I
> thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably would not do so in
> most cases. Interesting to read the different prospectives of others.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?Good morning,
>> I think it=92s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the =
subject
>> and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in
>> that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new
>> systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however
>> inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off
>> what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I=92ve =
found
>> that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue =
about
>> diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can
>> improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I think it=92s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that =
the
>>> focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do
>>> the job, it=92s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing
>>> accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The
>>> interviewer won=92t know anything about accessibility of firm software, =
but
>>> if you blow them away, they=92ll find a way to make things work.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Hi Sara:
>>>>
>>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually
>>>> impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the
>>>> interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to
>>>> convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable
>>>> accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be
>>>> evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the =
position.
>>>>
>>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a
>>>> trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally
>>>> do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a
>>>> blindness assistive technology education.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo
>>>> via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>>>
>>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while
>>>> visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it=92s =
necessary
>>>> to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the
>>>> interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is =
the
>>>> best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the
>>>> biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an
>>>> attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us,
>>>> whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice
>>>> would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> =
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for =
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.com



From gerard.sadlier at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 01:02:27 2023
From: gerard.sadlier at gmail.com (Gerard Sadlier)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:02:27 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Accessibility of Discovery Platforms
In-Reply-To: <10ada189aeea4abcbaaa31320a61767e@cov.com>
References: <CAGZitzJdm7E9DX_M1FFkp3HJKD7WM3vYnxA5DaJewW2F-xnXFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGZitz+jkGzZaMkkipNpa0UppuE13FZccRY52LijH9Qmz+dA5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <10ada189aeea4abcbaaa31320a61767e@cov.com>
Message-ID: <CAGZitzKF-hy8-_attFhroY2vQVbPkuvoR5nNhb0dvwdxGfA2vQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nikki

Thanks so much. I do essentially what you do as regards off line
prints to pdf. It's the best I can currently do but it really is not a
satisfactory solution.

I agree in particular with your comments about being nice to
colleagues and I appreciate your response!
Kind regards

Ger

On 3/9/23, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Ger,
>
> I believe your message did indeed go through. I suspect most folks might not
> have much to say, and I have been working on two projects due at the end of
> the week, which delayed my response to you. I actually have a bunch to say
> on the topic. I will, however, try to keep my comments brief.
>
> Legal services support technology, like e-discovery software, generally has
> plenty to be desired regarding screen reader accessibility. It is very
> unfortunate because there is no fundamental reason why underlying code could
> not be written to work better with screen readers. E-discovery platforms are
> mostly databases (and far from the most sophisticated ones) with an
> interface that folks without computer science degrees, i.e. lawyers, can
> feel comfortable using to run searches, review documents, and prepare
> materials for production.
>
> I have worked--not really--with Relativity, a popular document review
> platform application, in addition to my firm's in-house one. Both are
> intensely frustrating to use with JAWS. Items are not labeled well or
> require a mouse to activate. For browser-based platforms, I have often had
> to contend with cursor focus issues as well, making it challenging to jump
> from different parts of the main screen: main document for review, review
> panel, menu of preferences. As a result, I try to develop a close
> relationship with litigation support, individuals with the computer science
> and technical background who maintain the database for the attorneys. I
> craft searches for them to execute for me. They give me hit counts, and I
> then request a print to PDF for offline review, or else I refine the search,
> sometimes with the specialists's input.
>
> The above is not my favorite solution, but it does work and has allowed me
> to do what I have to do by way of fact development and deposition/interview
> prep. It does get a bit tricky if I am trying to understand different forks
> of an email exchange or track down different drafts of a hot/key document,
> like a final memorandum or slide deck. For that detailed, detective-type
> work, I enlist the assistance of the paralegal or contract attorney assigned
> to the matter. We have a call, so I can explain the precise factual context
> and illuminate the story, as far as I understand from the materials I have
> at the time, to permit the paralegal or contract attorney to take a deeper
> dive limited in time and the custodians/people involved in the documents.
>
> I will underscore that even if you cannot use the review platforms, you
> should learn how they work. You need not know where to click for each
> command. But you should know what your platform is capable of doing so you
> can guide someone else to run searches for you, construct review coding or
> tagging panels for you, retrieve documents for you, or print documents in a
> specific order for you.
>
> You should also let your organization know and the e-discovery vendor know
> about the accessibility issue. Software developers really need to see that
> this is a problem worth the time and attention. Right now, I consider it a
> victory if I can educate sales reps or designers about JAWS. How and when
> feedback turns into better product coding, I am not sure. But in the
> meanwhile, I, like you, still have cases to move forward, so please treat
> the support staff around you with kindness and respect, because they will
> help you bridge much of the gap that non-inclusive technology design
> presents.
>
> And so much for my earlier declared brevity. I write all this out because
> while I appreciate that many here spend time on Westlaw or Lexis, there are
> so many other products that lawyers use. People with an investigations or
> trial practice spend probably years of their lives with e-discovery
> products, and those products present some very cool features overall but
> some non-trivial accessibility issues at the same time.
>
> Regards,
> Nikki
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Gerard Sadlier via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:53 AM
> To: blindlaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gerard Sadlier <gerard.sadlier at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Fwd: Accessibility of Discovery Platforms
>
> [EXTERNAL]
>
> Hi all
>
> I've emailed on this list previously about the accessibility of
> discovery review platforms. The platform we have, Reveal, still seems
> quite inaccessible. Does anyone have experience with it or indeed with
> another platform?
>
> Note, I tried to send this to the list a few days ago but not sure if
> it went through or not. If it did, my apologies for a further posting.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Ger
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gerard.sadlier%40gmail.com
>


From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 10 02:24:08 2023
From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:24:08 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <20230310.000128.831.31@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
 <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
 <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230310.000128.831.31@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <000e01d952f7$65e8b6d0$31ba2470$@sbcglobal.net>

Diversion, equity and inclusion isn't a concept of policy. Rather, it is an
agenda to promote the lgbtq lifestyle. It is intended to include men who
think they are women. It was never about inclusion of the blind.

dan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rob Hudson via
BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 6:01 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

It's sad that with all the screaming about diversity, equity and inclusion,
we are still lef tfar, far behind.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Harpur via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Paul Harpur <paulharpur at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:39:56 +1000
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

> If you are blind the law firm, government or NGO will probably want to
know how you operate.  so I ask for a separate interview to discuss the how
I operate being blind.  so I take the disability out of the interview 100%
by putting it into a separate interview process.  it gives me the advantage
of meeting people, sometimes before the other interview.  thatis really neat
incidentally.  you get to meet the ITS person, perhaps a lawyer or partner
or director.  you get a relaxed opportunity.  then in the work interview you
have some of the relationships you can build upon.
hiding is understandable, but the problem is you get the firms that may not
hire someone with a disability.
If you can, get contact with partners before applying.  grad jobs are harder
obviously, but that is still viable.
also talk to your profs about thier contacts during the degree.


On 3/10/23, Jen Barrow via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to 
> an interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may 
> shift when applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In 
> practice, I have ended up disclosing either disability generally or 
> blindness specifically in many of my cover letters for public interest 
> positions. It's of course an individualized assessment based on each job
announcement.
>
> -Jen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney 
> via BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>
> I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my 
> blindness prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took 
> when interviewing with my two previous firms. Things were different 
> with my current position because several colleagues from my prior firm 
> lateraled to my current firm before I did, so people knew about my 
> blindness from the get-go. I generally ask interviewers if they are 
> interested in the technology I use. Sometimes, they ask for more 
> information, though resulting discussions are generally pretty 
> high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I 
> can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first 
> interview if I thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably
would not do so in most cases. Interesting to read the different
prospectives of others.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw 
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?Good morning,
>> I think its a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the 
>> subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the 
>> conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your 
>> comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward 
>> addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The 
>> priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring 
>> to the table. For some interviewers, Ive found that a conversation 
>> about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse 
>> perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on
productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw 
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I think its fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that 
>>> the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability 
>>> to do the job, its always a good idea to signal openness to 
>>> discussing accommodations and how you might handle various 
>>> situations. The interviewer wont know anything about accessibility 
>>> of firm software, but if you blow them away, theyll find a way to make
things work.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw 
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Hi Sara:
>>>>
>>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are 
>>>> visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my 
>>>> view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. 
>>>> You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or 
>>>> without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your 
>>>> responses should be evident of your ability to perform the
responsibilities of the position.
>>>>
>>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice 
>>>> with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I 
>>>> personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your 
>>>> interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah 
>>>> Badillo via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>>>
>>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews 
>>>> while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, its 
>>>> necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a 
>>>> shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how 
>>>> do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with 
>>>> them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the 
>>>> applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a 
>>>> large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use 
>>>> will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks
in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%
>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> BlindLaw:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40ya
>>>> hoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40
>>> gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40
>> gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gma
> il.com
>

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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com





From rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com  Fri Mar 10 02:31:29 2023
From: rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com (Rob Hudson)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:31:29 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <000e01d952f7$65e8b6d0$31ba2470$@sbcglobal.net>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
 <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
 <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230310.000128.831.31@[192.168.1.100]>
 <000e01d952f7$65e8b6d0$31ba2470$@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20230310.023129.483.33@[192.168.1.100]>

True enough. DEI only counts when it's the favored groups.

----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Mack via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
To: "'Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:24:08 -0600
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

> Diversion, equity and inclusion isn't a concept of policy. Rather, it is an
> agenda to promote the lgbtq lifestyle. It is intended to include men who
> think they are women. It was never about inclusion of the blind.
> 
> dan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rob Hudson via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 6:01 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> 
> It's sad that with all the screaming about diversity, equity and inclusion,
> we are still lef tfar, far behind.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Harpur via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Paul Harpur <paulharpur at gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:39:56 +1000
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> 
> > If you are blind the law firm, government or NGO will probably want to
> know how you operate.  so I ask for a separate interview to discuss the how
> I operate being blind.  so I take the disability out of the interview 100%
> by putting it into a separate interview process.  it gives me the advantage
> of meeting people, sometimes before the other interview.  thatis really neat
> incidentally.  you get to meet the ITS person, perhaps a lawyer or partner
> or director.  you get a relaxed opportunity.  then in the work interview you
> have some of the relationships you can build upon.
> hiding is understandable, but the problem is you get the firms that may not
> hire someone with a disability.
> If you can, get contact with partners before applying.  grad jobs are harder
> obviously, but that is still viable.
> also talk to your profs about thier contacts during the degree.
> 
> 
> On 3/10/23, Jen Barrow via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to 
> > an interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may 
> > shift when applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In 
> > practice, I have ended up disclosing either disability generally or 
> > blindness specifically in many of my cover letters for public interest 
> > positions. It's of course an individualized assessment based on each job
> announcement.
> >
> > -Jen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney 
> > via BlindLaw
> > Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
> > To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> >
> > I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my 
> > blindness prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took 
> > when interviewing with my two previous firms. Things were different 
> > with my current position because several colleagues from my prior firm 
> > lateraled to my current firm before I did, so people knew about my 
> > blindness from the get-go. I generally ask interviewers if they are 
> > interested in the technology I use. Sometimes, they ask for more 
> > information, though resulting discussions are generally pretty 
> > high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I 
> > can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first 
> > interview if I thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably
> would not do so in most cases. Interesting to read the different
> prospectives of others.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw 
> >> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Good morning,
> >> I think its a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the 
> >> subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the 
> >> conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your 
> >> comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward 
> >> addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The 
> >> priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring 
> >> to the table. For some interviewers, Ive found that a conversation 
> >> about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse 
> >> perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on
> productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
> >>
> >>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw 
> >>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?I think its fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that 
> >>> the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability 
> >>> to do the job, its always a good idea to signal openness to 
> >>> discussing accommodations and how you might handle various 
> >>> situations. The interviewer wont know anything about accessibility 
> >>> of firm software, but if you blow them away, theyll find a way to make
> things work.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw 
> >>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> ?Hi Sara:
> >>>>
> >>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are 
> >>>> visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my 
> >>>> view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. 
> >>>> You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or 
> >>>> without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your 
> >>>> responses should be evident of your ability to perform the
> responsibilities of the position.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice 
> >>>> with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I 
> >>>> personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your 
> >>>> interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rod,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rod Alcidonis
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah 
> >>>> Badillo via BlindLaw
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
> >>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews 
> >>>> while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, its 
> >>>> necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a 
> >>>> shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how 
> >>>> do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with 
> >>>> them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the 
> >>>> applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a 
> >>>> large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use 
> >>>> will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks
> in advance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> BlindLaw mailing list
> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> >>>> for
> >>>> BlindLaw:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%
> >>>> 40gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> BlindLaw mailing list
> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> >>>> for
> >>>> BlindLaw:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40ya
> >>>> hoo.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> BlindLaw mailing list
> >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> >>> for
> >>> BlindLaw:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40
> >>> gmail.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BlindLaw mailing list
> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> BlindLaw:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40
> >> gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindLaw mailing list
> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindLaw:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gm
> > ail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindLaw mailing list
> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindLaw:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gma
> > il.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.
> com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.com
> 


From dandrews920 at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 04:11:31 2023
From: dandrews920 at comcast.net (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 22:11:31 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
Message-ID: aU6Op5TpliB9ZaU6PpBJ6y.1678421494.6cd2038af52841b1d09a0ea3e3055a58.MISSINGID@comcast.net

There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and 
Inclusion. It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes 
left out of DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been 
very respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.

I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by 
demeaning others.

Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.

David Andrews, List Owner



From BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com  Fri Mar 10 05:17:00 2023
From: BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com (Brian Unitt)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 05:17:00 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: aU6Op5TpliB9ZaU6PpBJ6y.1678421494.6cd2038af52841b1d09a0ea3e3055a58.MISSINGID@comcast.net
References: aU6Op5TpliB9ZaU6PpBJ6y.1678421494.6cd2038af52841b1d09a0ea3e3055a58.MISSINGID@comcast.net
Message-ID: <BN8PR12MB3507B0B3A11CDF7560A59333C5BA9@BN8PR12MB3507.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

Agreed, thank you for pointing that out David.

Brian
Brian C. Unitt
Certified Specialist in Appellate Law
By the State Bar of California

Law Office of Brian C. Unitt
6185 Magnolia Ave, PMB 40
Riverside, CA 92506 
P: 951-682-7030
E: brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com

NOTICE:  This communication is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain attorney/client information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this communication to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply email or by telephone and immediately delete this communication and all its attachments.

Confidentiality Disclaimer 
This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. 
If you are not the author's intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete all copies, both electronic and printed, and contact the author immediately

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 8:12 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.

I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.

Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.

David Andrews, List Owner


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/brianunitt%40holsteinlaw.com


From sanho817 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 08:35:24 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:35:24 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <20230310.023129.483.33@192.168.1.100>
References: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <B233B5CD-3446-4041-B1BF-7B2C25B325CB@gmail.com>
 <036801d952c2$f60ed300$e22c7900$@gmail.com>
 <CAHw8yZG+wnJa_px687i2WJwTFxu_DiC5quRzwQN_KaJC==mb5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230310.000128.831.31@192.168.1.100>
 <000e01d952f7$65e8b6d0$31ba2470$@sbcglobal.net>
 <20230310.023129.483.33@192.168.1.100>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpezbMpN=zgZYn-6XVt9GF5bpXzVYWmE2L2kByqSu+6AO9g@mail.gmail.com>

Danny and Rob,

You can't imagine how harmful and disrespectful it is to espouse such
beliefs on a public forum. At the very least you have no idea how many
trans people read your message yesterday or will run across it in
archives in the future. Please note sections IV of the NFB's Code of
Conduct, which states:

". . . we do not condone the use of demeaning, derogatory, or
discriminatory language, action, or any other form of expression
intended to marginalize an individual or group. The National
Federation of the Blind does not tolerate discrimination on the basis
of. .  . gender identity and expression, sexual orientation. . ."

The National Federation of the Blind stands against transphobia within
the blindness community, and that includes on this list.

Sanho

Sanho Steele-Louchart, Chair
National Federation of the Blind LGBT+ Group



On 3/9/23, Rob Hudson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> True enough. DEI only counts when it's the favored groups.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Danny Mack via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> To: "'Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net
> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:24:08 -0600
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>
>> Diversion, equity and inclusion isn't a concept of policy. Rather, it is
>> an
>> agenda to promote the lgbtq lifestyle. It is intended to include men who
>> think they are women. It was never about inclusion of the blind.
>>
>> dan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rob Hudson via
>> BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 6:01 PM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>
>> It's sad that with all the screaming about diversity, equity and
>> inclusion,
>> we are still lef tfar, far behind.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Harpur via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Paul Harpur <paulharpur at gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:39:56 +1000
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>
>> > If you are blind the law firm, government or NGO will probably want to
>> know how you operate.  so I ask for a separate interview to discuss the
>> how
>> I operate being blind.  so I take the disability out of the interview
>> 100%
>> by putting it into a separate interview process.  it gives me the
>> advantage
>> of meeting people, sometimes before the other interview.  thatis really
>> neat
>> incidentally.  you get to meet the ITS person, perhaps a lawyer or
>> partner
>> or director.  you get a relaxed opportunity.  then in the work interview
>> you
>> have some of the relationships you can build upon.
>> hiding is understandable, but the problem is you get the firms that may
>> not
>> hire someone with a disability.
>> If you can, get contact with partners before applying.  grad jobs are
>> harder
>> obviously, but that is still viable.
>> also talk to your profs about thier contacts during the degree.
>>
>>
>> On 3/10/23, Jen Barrow via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> > I in theory agree with the wisdom of not disclosing blindness prior to
>> > an interview. But, just a note to add that the considerations may
>> > shift when applying for positions in the nonprofit legal sector. In
>> > practice, I have ended up disclosing either disability generally or
>> > blindness specifically in many of my cover letters for public interest
>> > positions. It's of course an individualized assessment based on each
>> > job
>> announcement.
>> >
>> > -Jen
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Angie Matney
>> > via BlindLaw
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:41 PM
>> > To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> > Cc: Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>> >
>> > I have generally had better luck  when I chose not to disclose my
>> > blindness prior to my first interview. This was the approach I took
>> > when interviewing with my two previous firms. Things were different
>> > with my current position because several colleagues from my prior firm
>> > lateraled to my current firm before I did, so people knew about my
>> > blindness from the get-go. I generally ask interviewers if they are
>> > interested in the technology I use. Sometimes, they ask for more
>> > information, though resulting discussions are generally pretty
>> > high-level.  Other times, they say that my experience demonstrates I
>> > can do the job. I would disclose blindness prior to the first
>> > interview if I thought doing so would be advantageous, but I probably
>> would not do so in most cases. Interesting to read the different
>> prospectives of others.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw
>> >> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ?Good morning,
>> >> I think it s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the
>> >> subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the
>> >> conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your
>> >> comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward
>> >> addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The
>> >> priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring
>> >> to the table. For some interviewers, I ve found that a conversation
>> >> about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse
>> >> perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve
>> >> on
>> productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
>> >>
>> >>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>> >>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> ?I think it s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that
>> >>> the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability
>> >>> to do the job, it s always a good idea to signal openness to
>> >>> discussing accommodations and how you might handle various
>> >>> situations. The interviewer won t know anything about accessibility
>> >>> of firm software, but if you blow them away, they ll find a way to
>> >>> make
>> things work.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw
>> >>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ?Hi Sara:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are
>> >>>> visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my
>> >>>> view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues.
>> >>>> You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or
>> >>>> without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your
>> >>>> responses should be evident of your ability to perform the
>> responsibilities of the position.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice
>> >>>> with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I
>> >>>> personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your
>> >>>> interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rod,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rod Alcidonis
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah
>> >>>> Badillo via BlindLaw
>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>> >>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews
>> >>>> while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it s
>> >>>> necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a
>> >>>> shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how
>> >>>> do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with
>> >>>> them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the
>> >>>> applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a
>> >>>> large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use
>> >>>> will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated.
>> >>>> Thanks
>> in advance.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> BlindLaw:
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%
>> >>>> 40gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> >>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> BlindLaw:
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40ya
>> >>>> hoo.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> >>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>> for
>> >>> BlindLaw:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40
>> >>> gmail.com
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> BlindLaw mailing list
>> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> BlindLaw:
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40
>> >> gmail.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > BlindLaw mailing list
>> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > BlindLaw:
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jlynnbarrow%40gm
>> > ail.com
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > BlindLaw mailing list
>> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > BlindLaw:
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/paulharpur%40gma
>> > il.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.
>> com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From rothmanjd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 14:41:20 2023
From: rothmanjd at gmail.com (Ronza Othman)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:41:20 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <640aae3a.020a0220.11a17.e7d4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
References: <640aae3a.020a0220.11a17.e7d4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <30E04EC1-EBE7-49EA-B6D7-ED910721AD18@gmail.com>

I agree with Dave. As the president of the National Association of Blind Lawyers, I will also remind you all that we are  a division of the National Federation of the Blind, and this listserv is owned, operated, and managed by the National Association of Blind Lawyers and  the National Federation of the Blind. as a result, our code of conduct applies, which prohibits denigrating any particular group based on their demographic characteristics or Intersectionalities  of characteristics. We have been pretty laxed about content scope reminders and enforcement of the rules of this list, but that will need to change if people cannot comport themselves in a way that fosters dignity and respect for all, including those  Who have different values. 

Regards,
Ronza Othman, President
National Association of Blind Lawyers


Ronza Othman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Maryland
443-426-4110
Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:12 PM, David Andrews via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
> 
> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
> 
> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
> 
> David Andrews, List Owner
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rothmanjd%40gmail.com


From rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 15:20:04 2023
From: rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com (rjmorrissey26 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:20:04 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
References: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5@yahoo.com>
 <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01d95363$ca6cb590$5f4620b0$@gmail.com>

I agree with all that has been suggested.

My experience has been that I never lead with the visual disability, but also never try to conceal or be unwilling to discuss.

Clearly, the most important thing is to focus on accomplishments along with skills that point to success in the job itself.

Good luck.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino via BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:19 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Aser Tolentino <agtolentino at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired

Good morning,
I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject and will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in that direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new systems can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however inappropriate they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found that a conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Sara:
>> 
>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>> 
>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a blindness assistive technology education.
>> 
>> 
>> Rod,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Rod Alcidonis
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>> 
>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney, whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjmorrissey26%40gmail.com



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 15:40:39 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:40:39 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <006f01d95363$ca6cb590$5f4620b0$@gmail.com>
References: <8E98F90E-22DF-4131-8C2A-600CC0EC2FA5@yahoo.com>
 <E845DD1C-1174-41B9-A253-3D40B36A3E3A@gmail.com>
 <006f01d95363$ca6cb590$5f4620b0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpezcGsYwkuoPGQ-n5T9KjqA6FpuVgHOyXNTgC624m1OuRw@mail.gmail.com>

Same. So far I've been very direct in explaining what I do, how I do
it, and addressing any concerns or hesitations they might have. I try
to remember that when I was sighted, I might've wondered how or if a
blind person could do a certain task, and that uncertainty came from
genuine ignorance rather than a conscious sense of superiority. (And
then there are the times when people aren't interested in learning
regardless of what evidence you provide them.)

Sanho

On 3/10/23, Robert J Morrissey via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I agree with all that has been suggested.
>
> My experience has been that I never lead with the visual disability, but
> also never try to conceal or be unwilling to discuss.
>
> Clearly, the most important thing is to focus on accomplishments along with
> skills that point to success in the job itself.
>
> Good luck.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:19 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Aser Tolentino <agtolentino at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>
> Good morning,
> I think it’s a fine line to walk when it comes to addressing the subject and
> will very depending on the circumstances. If the conversation goes in that
> direction naturally, demonstrating your comfort with adapting to new systems
> can go a long way toward addressing any reservations, however inappropriate
> they may be. The priority first and foremost is to show off what you as a
> person bring to the table. For some interviewers, I’ve found that a
> conversation about assistive technology turns into a dialogue about diverse
> perspectives, or an opportunity to discuss how technology can improve on
> productivity more generally,and sometimes it never comes up.
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:58 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it’s fine to disclose pre-interview. And while I agree that the
>> focus of the interview should be on your credentials and ability to do the
>> job, it’s always a good idea to signal openness to discussing
>> accommodations and how you might handle various situations. The
>> interviewer won’t know anything about accessibility of firm software, but
>> if you blow them away, they’ll find a way to make things work.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Sara:
>>>
>>> Other than sharing briefly with the interviewer that you are visually
>>> impaired to avoid uncomfortable camera situations, in my view, the
>>> interview is not the time to discuss any of those issues. You need to
>>> convey that you are able to perform the job with or without reasonable
>>> accommodations. The examples you share in your responses should be
>>> evident of your ability to perform the responsibilities of the position.
>>>
>>> If you are just entering the workforce, you may need to practice with a
>>> trusted colleague to get you to perform at that level, but I personally
>>> do not believe it will be to your benefit to turn your interview into a
>>> blindness assistive technology education.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rod,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rod Alcidonis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sarah Badillo
>>> via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 9:18 AM
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
>>>
>>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while
>>> visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to
>>> explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the
>>> interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the
>>> best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest
>>> question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney,
>>> whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the
>>> software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee
>>> appreciated. Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjmorrissey26%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 16:16:03 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:16:03 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: aU6Op5TpliB9ZaU6PpBJ6y.1678421494.6cd2038af52841b1d09a0ea3e3055a58.MISSINGID@comcast.net
References: aU6Op5TpliB9ZaU6PpBJ6y.1678421494.6cd2038af52841b1d09a0ea3e3055a58.MISSINGID@comcast.net
Message-ID: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>

Quoting:
we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
End quote:
And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
So, we really should stop doing it.


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via
BlindLaw
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of DEI
considerations. Further, some messages have not been very respectful of gay
and trans-gender persons.

I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations,
however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.

Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.

David Andrews, List Owner


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 16:48:51 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:48:51 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the
problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm
trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the
Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and
of themselves.

Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Quoting:
> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
> End quote:
> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
> So, we really should stop doing it.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of DEI
> considerations. Further, some messages have not been very respectful of gay
> and trans-gender persons.
>
> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations,
> however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>
> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>
> David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 17:01:08 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:01:08 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>

Hi:

I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in passing
policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here is "how to get
along with others" on an individual basis.
It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on
"compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us
blindees.
I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to be
special; I want to be remembered because I am different than everyone else,
even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is a negotiating tactic
that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't think I am
capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me because the law says
they have too.
It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I ever
have in my lifetime.
I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather than
because you "have too".
I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we blind
and sighted.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor discriminatory per
the list guidelines.


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the problem
resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm trying to
imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the Social Security
Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of themselves.

Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Quoting:
> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
> End quote:
> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
> So, we really should stop doing it.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
> Andrews via BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion.
> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>
> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations, 
> however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>
> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>
> David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 17:12:44 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:12:44 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was
worried that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad
it wasn't taken that way. I agree with what you say in your
clarification. I don't know that I want those laws or policies to stop
existing, but I do see the contrast between where they helped get us
and how far we still have to go, as well as the new, additional
hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to be valued, not
tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to avoid a
lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in passing
> policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here is "how to get
> along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to be
> special; I want to be remembered because I am different than everyone else,
> even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is a negotiating tactic
> that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't think I
> am
> capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me because the law
> says
> they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I ever
> have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather than
> because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we blind
> and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor discriminatory per
> the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the problem
> resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm trying to
> imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the Social Security
> Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations,
>> however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From rodalcidonis at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 18:24:17 2023
From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:24:17 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Selective Diversity and Inclusion
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d9537d$86871f40$93955dc0$@gmail.com>

I hope it is okay. I took liberty to change the subject line for more
constructive interactions on the topic.

>From my perspective, the issue at hand is audacity. Indeed, all the talk
about accessibility and disability inclusion is primarily rooted in a
mindset of compliance than anything else, as has been said. While this may
eventually change, I do not believe we have yet reached a point where those
responsible for inclusive hiring possess a genuinely inclusive mindset, to
put it nicely. In so many ways, many of these policies are created with
lofty language but with no meaningful impact on the lives of people with
disabilities.

Many individuals in these roles may be comfortable pushing initiatives that
run counter to DEI principles if assigned to do so. In many ways, it seems
that the whole thing has just become another kind of job, albeit one that is
currently trendy.

For there be inclusive hiring, one needs to be sufficiently informed of the
untapped potential of people with disabilities. I frankly do not believe
there are enough of that kind of open-minded professionals in the workforce
that can pass this test. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
We need true leaders on the front line to make it happen, and we are just
not there yet unfortunately.

My 2 cents.


Rod,



Rod Alcidonis, Esq.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 12:13 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
avoid a lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in 
> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here 
> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on 
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us 
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to 
> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than 
> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is 
> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't 
> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me 
> because the law says they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I 
> ever have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather 
> than because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we 
> blind and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor 
> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho 
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the 
> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm 
> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the 
> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of
themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> o
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.c
om



From laurenbishop96 at icloud.com  Fri Mar 10 18:34:32 2023
From: laurenbishop96 at icloud.com (Lauren Bishop)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:34:32 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender about
 performing the job as a blind person
Message-ID: <1BBF4D0E-0AC0-4F92-8127-3D56778F2899@icloud.com>

Hello all,
I am a law student and I am interested in working as an assistant state attorney. Could I chat with someone on this list who has experience in this role? I would like to discuss strategies you use as a blind person to do your job. I think I have some ideas, but I like to talk with those who have experience in this role as well. 
Thank you so much for your assistance!
Lauren

Sent from my iPhone

From rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com  Fri Mar 10 18:48:35 2023
From: rob_hudson_3182 at gmx.com (Rob Hudson)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:48:35 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Selective Diversity and Inclusion
In-Reply-To: <001601d9537d$86871f40$93955dc0$@gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d9537d$86871f40$93955dc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230310.184835.447.34@[192.168.1.100]>

In addition, whenever layoffs occur, it's usually the DEI people that are among the first to get laid off. This indicates that diversity and inclusion is actually far down the list of priorities for many companies, and is only a talking point rather than a real measure of change.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Alcidonis via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
To: "'Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: rodalcidonis at gmail.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:24:17 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Selective Diversity and Inclusion

> I hope it is okay. I took liberty to change the subject line for more
> constructive interactions on the topic.
> 
> From my perspective, the issue at hand is audacity. Indeed, all the talk
> about accessibility and disability inclusion is primarily rooted in a
> mindset of compliance than anything else, as has been said. While this may
> eventually change, I do not believe we have yet reached a point where those
> responsible for inclusive hiring possess a genuinely inclusive mindset, to
> put it nicely. In so many ways, many of these policies are created with
> lofty language but with no meaningful impact on the lives of people with
> disabilities.
> 
> Many individuals in these roles may be comfortable pushing initiatives that
> run counter to DEI principles if assigned to do so. In many ways, it seems
> that the whole thing has just become another kind of job, albeit one that is
> currently trendy.
> 
> For there be inclusive hiring, one needs to be sufficiently informed of the
> untapped potential of people with disabilities. I frankly do not believe
> there are enough of that kind of open-minded professionals in the workforce
> that can pass this test. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> We need true leaders on the front line to make it happen, and we are just
> not there yet unfortunately.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> 
> Rod,
> 
> 
> 
> Rod Alcidonis, Esq.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 12:13 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
> that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
> that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
> I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
> between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
> the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
> be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
> avoid a lawsuit.
> 
> Warmth,
> Sanho
> 
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > Hi:
> >
> > I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in 
> > passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here 
> > is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> > It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on 
> > "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us 
> > blindees.
> > I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to 
> > be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than 
> > everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is 
> > a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> > Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> > I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't 
> > think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me 
> > because the law says they have too.
> > It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I 
> > ever have in my lifetime.
> > I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather 
> > than because you "have too".
> > I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we 
> > blind and sighted.
> > I hope this makes sense to you.
> > Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor 
> > discriminatory per the list guidelines.
> >
> >
> > Please advise as you like.
> >
> > Mike M.
> >
> > Mike mcglashon
> > Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> > Ph: 618 783 9331
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho 
> > Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> > To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the 
> > problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> > I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm 
> > trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the 
> > Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of
> themselves.
> >
> > Sanho
> >
> > On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >> Quoting:
> >> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
> >> End quote:
> >> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
> >> So, we really should stop doing it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Please advise as you like.
> >>
> >> Mike M.
> >>
> >> Mike mcglashon
> >> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> >> Ph: 618 783 9331
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
> >> Andrews via BlindLaw
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
> >> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
> >>
> >> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> > Inclusion.
> >> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
> >> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
> >> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
> >>
> >> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
> >> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
> demeaning others.
> >>
> >> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
> >>
> >> David Andrews, List Owner
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BlindLaw mailing list
> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> BlindLaw:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
> >> o
> >> n%40co
> >> mcast.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BlindLaw mailing list
> >> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> BlindLaw:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
> >> l
> >> .com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > He/Him
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindLaw mailing list
> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindLaw:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> > n%40co
> > mcast.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindLaw mailing list
> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindLaw:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> > .com
> >
> 
> 
> --
> He/Him
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.c
> om
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob_hudson_3182%40gmx.com
> 


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 18:53:25 2023
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:53:25 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Interviewing whilevisually impaired
In-Reply-To: <4C76162F-97C9-4C02-888C-EA0EF5CED87C@icloud.com>
References: <8982A7F4-25BB-449E-BD0B-CA72F7D9B0A1@gmail.com>
 <4C76162F-97C9-4C02-888C-EA0EF5CED87C@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAHox4DJFHrLeLvH8vAUUSAo+tD1Pee0WCQ=_YUjM94xerRrVzw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sarah,

First, you are not required to disclose your blindness in an
interview. The employer is also not allowed to ask about it. I have
taken a variety of approaches to disclosing blindness, and full
disclosure, I'm not even out of law school. So I'm also still
learning.

I think how/when you disclose also depends on the kind of
jobs/internships you want. I'm primarily interested in public
interest, civil rights work. That work sometimes lends itself to
disclosing in a cover letter or in the interview because you can
discuss your advocacy efforts in the disability community. Of course,
someone with more experience may not need to pull from personal
advocacy experiences for an interview.

I have gotten interviews after disclosing in a cover letter and after
not disclosing in a cover letter. I would probably not do this if I
was in a different field. Also, I generally find a smoother way to
disclose that doesn't put your blindness in their face, so to speak.

I really struggle with Zoom interviews. I tend to think the
interviewer can tell I'm blind because of the way my eyes look, but
this probably isn't true for most blind people. So I generally try to
bring it up towards the end of the interview. If the employer is going
to be weird or comfortable with blindness, I would rather know that
and reassure them that I have an open approach to my disability. If I
felt like the interview was going super extra well or super extra
terrible, I may take a different strategy. And well, I'm still
learning. So all of this is still kind of a work in progress.

Good luck, however you choose to tackle these interviews!

Julie

On 3/9/23, Lauren Bishop via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Good afternoon,
> You don’t have to disclose your visual impairment in an interview. Last
> legal internship I had, I disclosed it after the offer was made.   Know that
> a lot of places are doing zoom interviews, they will likely not know that
> you were visually impaired. This gives them an opportunity to discuss your
> unique skills, and what you can bring to the table.  if questions about your
> visual impairment to come up, you can always answer them the best you can.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Sarah Badillo via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on job interviews while
>> visually impaired. I know that with each job interview, it’s necessary to
>> explain your visual impairment, and there may be a shock to the
>> interviewer upon discovering this fact. When and how do you think is the
>> best time and method to broach the subject with them. I think the biggest
>> question for them is whether the applicant can perform as an attorney,
>> whether they can handel a large volume of cases and for us, whether the
>> software they use will be accessible with jaws. Any advice would bee
>> appreciated. Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laurenbishop96%40icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie A. McGinnity
MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of
Law, JD Candidate 2023


From dandrews920 at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 19:11:02 2023
From: dandrews920 at comcast.net (dandrews920 at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:11:02 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>

Change is a complicated thing. There are different stages all of which you
must go through, and to a certain extent, some of this is generational, and
until some of us old guys move on, there may not be much change.

Having said all that, I will add that as a part of change you must get
people to say the right thing, first, even if they don't believe it
initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will hopefully follow the
mouth.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:13 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
avoid a lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in 
> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here 
> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on 
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us 
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to 
> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than 
> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is 
> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't 
> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me 
> because the law says they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I 
> ever have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather 
> than because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we 
> blind and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor 
> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho 
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the 
> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm 
> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the 
> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of
themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> o
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 19:14:18 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:14:18 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpezMVZbRUwDDVM1pA648js0PZxZaQxUzs_MVnaVvUcMV6w@mail.gmail.com>

Dave,

Very well-said. Thank you.

Sanho

On 3/10/23, David Andrews via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Change is a complicated thing. There are different stages all of which you
> must go through, and to a certain extent, some of this is generational, and
> until some of us old guys move on, there may not be much change.
>
> Having said all that, I will add that as a part of change you must get
> people to say the right thing, first, even if they don't believe it
> initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will hopefully follow the
> mouth.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:13 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
> that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't
> taken
> that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know
> that
> I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
> between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well
> as
> the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
> be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
> avoid a lawsuit.
>
> Warmth,
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in
>> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here
>> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
>> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on
>> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us
>> blindees.
>> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to
>> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than
>> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is
>> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
>> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal
>> level?
>> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't
>> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me
>> because the law says they have too.
>> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I
>> ever have in my lifetime.
>> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather
>> than because you "have too".
>> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we
>> blind and sighted.
>> I hope this makes sense to you.
>> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor
>> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
>> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the
>> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
>> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm
>> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the
>> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of
> themselves.
>>
>> Sanho
>>
>> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Quoting:
>>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>>> End quote:
>>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please advise as you like.
>>>
>>> Mike M.
>>>
>>> Mike mcglashon
>>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David
>>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>>
>>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
>> Inclusion.
>>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of
>>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very
>>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>>
>>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI
>>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
> demeaning others.
>>>
>>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>>
>>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>>> o
>>> n%40co
>>> mcast.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>>> l
>>> .com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> He/Him
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From dandrews920 at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 19:14:12 2023
From: dandrews920 at comcast.net (dandrews920 at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:14:12 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <038101d95384$80d9b4c0$828d1e40$@comcast.net>

Policies and laws do not, in themselves solve problems, but they are
necessary steps in bringing about change.  We just can't give up and do
nothing.  None of this is binary, it isn't just one way or another.
Everything is on a continuum and changes over time.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the problem
resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm trying to
imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the Social Security
Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of themselves.

Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Quoting:
> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
> End quote:
> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
> So, we really should stop doing it.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
> Andrews via BlindLaw
> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion.
> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>
> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations, 
> however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>
> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>
> David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him



From jtfetter at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 10 19:42:17 2023
From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:42:17 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <038101d95384$80d9b4c0$828d1e40$@comcast.net>
References: <038101d95384$80d9b4c0$828d1e40$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C7027B1B-0697-4F9F-A119-6DF8B8850A03@yahoo.com>

The ADA and other civil rights laws are by no means a panacea, but they do measurably level the playing field.  If accessible technology and facilities are the norm, employers will generally have to spend less money to accommodate a single disabled employee. This in turn will make them more willing to “take the risk” (in quotes) of hiring one of us. Of course, the 88 on its own will not eliminate Bias and discrimination. My Less than smooth career path is a testament to that. But it, and similar laws have at least Reduced some of the barriers that we, as blind people, face in this and other professions.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 1:17 PM, David Andrews via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Policies and laws do not, in themselves solve problems, but they are
> necessary steps in bringing about change.  We just can't give up and do
> nothing.  None of this is binary, it isn't just one way or another.
> Everything is on a continuum and changes over time.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the problem
> resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm trying to
> imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the Social Security
> Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and of themselves.
> 
> Sanho
> 
>> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>> 
>> 
>> Please advise as you like.
>> 
>> Mike M.
>> 
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>> 
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>> 
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI considerations, 
>> however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> 
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>> 
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
>> .com
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> He/Him
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com



From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 19:56:28 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:56:28 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ca3d01d9538a$6b0ce620$4126b260$@comcast.net>

Quoting:
as a part of change you must get people to say the right thing, first, even
if they don't believe it initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will
hopefully follow the mouth.
End quote:
This is my problem; I do not want people telling me something that is not
genuine.  As I said earlier, I do not wish to do social/business with them
if they are only being patronistic and they do not truly believe what they
are saying.


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via
BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:11 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: dandrews920 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Change is a complicated thing. There are different stages all of which you
must go through, and to a certain extent, some of this is generational, and
until some of us old guys move on, there may not be much change.

Having said all that, I will add that as a part of change you must get
people to say the right thing, first, even if they don't believe it
initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will hopefully follow the
mouth.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:13 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
avoid a lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in 
> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here 
> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on 
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us 
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to 
> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than 
> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is 
> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't 
> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me 
> because the law says they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I 
> ever have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather 
> than because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we 
> blind and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor 
> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho 
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the 
> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm 
> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the 
> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and 
> of
themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> o
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him


_______________________________________________
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BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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mcast.net



From AMatney at reedsmith.com  Fri Mar 10 20:05:04 2023
From: AMatney at reedsmith.com (Matney, Angela R.)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:05:04 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <ca3d01d9538a$6b0ce620$4126b260$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <ca3d01d9538a$6b0ce620$4126b260$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ca397431dfb445029856acb3e9ef06ac@reedsmith.com>

Mike, I understand what you are saying. But at the end of the day, I have to work to support my family. While I would prefer to work only with people who truly believe in DEIA principles (I now see the “A” sometimes, to refer to accessibility), I don’t believe I have that luxury. I like to think that working in some of these environments helps change perception and advance the cause somewhat. Having said all of this, I feel like my current employer generally “gets it,” and I’m glad to be in a situation where that is the case.

Thanks to Mike and everyone else who has respectfully participated in this dialogue.

Best,

Angie



From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 2:56 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: MIKE MCGLASHON <michael.mcglashon at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

EXTERNAL E-MAIL - From blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Quoting:
as a part of change you must get people to say the right thing, first, even
if they don't believe it initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will
hopefully follow the mouth.
End quote:
This is my problem; I do not want people telling me something that is not
genuine.  As I said earlier, I do not wish to do social/business with them
if they are only being patronistic and they do not truly believe what they
are saying.


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net<mailto:Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net>
Ph: 618 783 9331




External Signed
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of David Andrews via
BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:11 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Cc: dandrews920 at comcast.net<mailto:dandrews920 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Change is a complicated thing. There are different stages all of which you
must go through, and to a certain extent, some of this is generational, and
until some of us old guys move on, there may not be much change.

Having said all that, I will add that as a part of change you must get
people to say the right thing, first, even if they don't believe it
initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will hopefully follow the
mouth.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:13 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com<mailto:sanho817 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
avoid a lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in
> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here
> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to
> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than
> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is
> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't
> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me
> because the law says they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I
> ever have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather
> than because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we
> blind and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor
> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net<mailto:Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net>
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com<mailto:sanho817 at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the
> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm
> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the
> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and
> of
themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net<mailto:Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net>
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of David
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net<mailto:dandrews920 at comcast.net>>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI
>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> o
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net


_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
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From rothmanjd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 20:16:39 2023
From: rothmanjd at gmail.com (Ronza Othman)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:16:39 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender
 about performing the job as a blind person
In-Reply-To: <1BBF4D0E-0AC0-4F92-8127-3D56778F2899@icloud.com>
References: <1BBF4D0E-0AC0-4F92-8127-3D56778F2899@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <4A1D06C2-9389-45BA-9765-C3ECD34B51D7@gmail.com>

I used to be a state’s attorney in  Cook County, IL primarily prosecuting high-volume felony cases including death penalty cases when the death penalty was a thing there. It’s been a while, but most non-visual techniques don’t change. Also adding Garrett Mooney to this thread, who is currently a state’s attorney  in Baltimore city.

Ronza Othman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Maryland
443-426-4110
Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 1:36 PM, Lauren Bishop via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> I am a law student and I am interested in working as an assistant state attorney. Could I chat with someone on this list who has experience in this role? I would like to discuss strategies you use as a blind person to do your job. I think I have some ideas, but I like to talk with those who have experience in this role as well. 
> Thank you so much for your assistance!
> Lauren
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rothmanjd%40gmail.com


From ctate2076 at att.net  Fri Mar 10 20:25:37 2023
From: ctate2076 at att.net (Camille Tate)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:25:37 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender
 about performing the job as a blind person
In-Reply-To: <1BBF4D0E-0AC0-4F92-8127-3D56778F2899@icloud.com>
References: <1BBF4D0E-0AC0-4F92-8127-3D56778F2899@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <003b01d9538e$7a8f8db0$6faea910$@att.net>

Hi Lauren: 

I would like to suggest you reach out to Owen McCall. He is a State's
Attorney in Tallahassee and was a speaker at our Florida Convention in
October. He is a graduate of the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind. I
can share his contact information with you off-line, if you need it. 

 Sincerely, 
Camille Tate 
2nd Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Florida 
President, Melbourne Space Coast Chapter, National Federation of the Blind
of Florida 
Phone: 321 372 4899 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lauren Bishop via
BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:35 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: Lauren Bishop <laurenbishop96 at icloud.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender about
performing the job as a blind person

Hello all,
I am a law student and I am interested in working as an assistant state
attorney. Could I chat with someone on this list who has experience in this
role? I would like to discuss strategies you use as a blind person to do
your job. I think I have some ideas, but I like to talk with those who have
experience in this role as well. 
Thank you so much for your assistance!
Lauren

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ctate2076%40att.net



From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 20:33:22 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (Mike Mcglashon)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:33:22 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender
 about performing the job as a blind person
In-Reply-To: <003b01d9538e$7a8f8db0$6faea910$@att.net>
References: <003b01d9538e$7a8f8db0$6faea910$@att.net>
Message-ID: <47E3FB02-A924-4FE5-9BA5-63272177E528@comcast.net>

Another guy you might want to speak to regarding this topic is,
Daniel McBride.
I think he works out a Dallas Texas as a criminal defense lawyer.
I met him a few years ago on this list,
We have spoken a few times, and he has a lot of great insight.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 2:27 PM, Camille Tate via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Lauren: 
> 
> I would like to suggest you reach out to Owen McCall. He is a State's
> Attorney in Tallahassee and was a speaker at our Florida Convention in
> October. He is a graduate of the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind. I
> can share his contact information with you off-line, if you need it. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Camille Tate 
> 2nd Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Florida 
> President, Melbourne Space Coast Chapter, National Federation of the Blind
> of Florida 
> Phone: 321 372 4899 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lauren Bishop via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:35 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Lauren Bishop <laurenbishop96 at icloud.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender about
> performing the job as a blind person
> 
> Hello all,
> I am a law student and I am interested in working as an assistant state
> attorney. Could I chat with someone on this list who has experience in this
> role? I would like to discuss strategies you use as a blind person to do
> your job. I think I have some ideas, but I like to talk with those who have
> experience in this role as well. 
> Thank you so much for your assistance!
> Lauren
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ctate2076%40att.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40comcast.net



From rothmanjd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 21:18:16 2023
From: rothmanjd at gmail.com (Ronza Othman)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:18:16 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender
 about performing the job as a blind person
In-Reply-To: <003b01d9538e$7a8f8db0$6faea910$@att.net>
References: <003b01d9538e$7a8f8db0$6faea910$@att.net>
Message-ID: <B0652F36-5D5E-421C-BB12-E473DD3DFE62@gmail.com>

Also, Donald Porterfield who is on our national board and president of our Arizona affiliate is a local prosecutor.

Ronza Othman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Maryland
443-426-4110
Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 3:26 PM, Camille Tate via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Lauren: 
> 
> I would like to suggest you reach out to Owen McCall. He is a State's
> Attorney in Tallahassee and was a speaker at our Florida Convention in
> October. He is a graduate of the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind. I
> can share his contact information with you off-line, if you need it. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Camille Tate 
> 2nd Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Florida 
> President, Melbourne Space Coast Chapter, National Federation of the Blind
> of Florida 
> Phone: 321 372 4899 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lauren Bishop via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:35 PM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Lauren Bishop <laurenbishop96 at icloud.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Speaking with a prosecutor or a public defender about
> performing the job as a blind person
> 
> Hello all,
> I am a law student and I am interested in working as an assistant state
> attorney. Could I chat with someone on this list who has experience in this
> role? I would like to discuss strategies you use as a blind person to do
> your job. I think I have some ideas, but I like to talk with those who have
> experience in this role as well. 
> Thank you so much for your assistance!
> Lauren
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ctate2076%40att.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rothmanjd%40gmail.com


From davant1958 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 21:46:05 2023
From: davant1958 at gmail.com (davant1958 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:46:05 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>

Nicely stated Dave.


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via
BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 1:11 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: dandrews920 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Change is a complicated thing. There are different stages all of which you
must go through, and to a certain extent, some of this is generational, and
until some of us old guys move on, there may not be much change.

Having said all that, I will add that as a part of change you must get
people to say the right thing, first, even if they don't believe it
initially.  Over time the mind, and the body will hopefully follow the
mouth.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:13 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

I, for one, appreciate your candid and thoughtful response. I was worried
that my question was going to come across as snark. I'm glad it wasn't taken
that way. I agree with what you say in your clarification. I don't know that
I want those laws or policies to stop existing, but I do see the contrast
between where they helped get us and how far we still have to go, as well as
the new, additional hurdles such laws and policies have created. I want to
be valued, not tolerated, and I want it to be because of who I am, not to
avoid a lawsuit.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I think what I am saying is that we have become so entrenched in 
> passing policies and laws that we forget that the whole premise here 
> is "how to get along with others" on an individual basis.
> It seems to me that in modern times the sighted world is hung up on 
> "compliance with the law" rather than the personal interaction with us 
> blindees.
> I am old enough to remember life before the ADA and such.  I want to 
> be special; I want to be remembered because I am different than 
> everyone else, even if the blind factor is what sets me apart.  It is 
> a negotiating tactic that the ADA and other laws have taken away from me.
> Whatever happened to negotiating with sighted persons on a personal level?
> I would rather not deal with sighted persons at all if they don't 
> think I am capable of doing anything rather than they deal with me 
> because the law says they have too.
> It seems further that I hear the "word" compliance" more now than I 
> ever have in my lifetime.
> I would rather have you deal with me because you "want too" rather 
> than because you "have too".
> I believe that laws have de-personalized our interactions between we 
> blind and sighted.
> I hope this makes sense to you.
> Furthermore, I hope these comments are not demeaning nor 
> discriminatory per the list guidelines.
>
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho 
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:49 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm intrigued by the premise that policies and laws don't solve the 
> problem resulting in the conclusion that "so we should stop doing it."
> I'm presuming 'it' means instituting such policies and laws. I'm 
> trying to imagine a parallel--getting rid of the ADA, IDEA, and the 
> Social Security Act because they don't actually abolish ableism in and 
> of
themselves.
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> we are not going to achieve inclusion by demeaning others.
>> End quote:
>> And we will not achieve it by policies and laws either.
>> So, we really should stop doing it.
>>
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David 
>> Andrews via BlindLaw
>> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 10:12 PM
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> There have been some messages lately about Diversity, Equity and
> Inclusion.
>> It has been pointed out that blind persons are sometimes left out of 
>> DEI considerations. Further, some messages have not been very 
>> respectful of gay and trans-gender persons.
>>
>> I would agree that we are sometimes passed over in DEI 
>> considerations, however, we are not going to achieve inclusion by
demeaning others.
>>
>> Please treat everybody with the respect you would expect for yourself.
>>
>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> o
>> n%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l
>> .com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/davant1958%40gmail.com



From jim at skamarakas.com  Fri Mar 10 22:05:58 2023
From: jim at skamarakas.com (jim at skamarakas.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 22:05:58 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>

We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.

On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo


From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 23:03:37 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:03:37 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
 <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
Message-ID: <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>

Quoting:
In many civil rights and equality issues, 
silence can be seen as acceptance. 
Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
End quote:

Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and those
who are oppressed.
I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all victims
via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own endeavors".
I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should know
better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for we know the
two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach for both; we as
lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we will never have equality,
(I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves only equity.  After all, we know
that equity is a remedial measure not a status of society.
Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for civil
rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by arbitrary statute
for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, "the lord giveth, and
the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be created so too can they be
removed by statute.
Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was thrown
around regularly.  

A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  If I
am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered into a realm
where my free property rights are infringed whereby I have no complete
say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to enter my land.  To me
this is a problem; for if I truly own my land then I have the right to do
with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe on land that borders mine.  I
am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply have
constructive dialogue.
In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up to me
how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.

Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this sounds
real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live the life you
earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves "individually"
not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with sightees
one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted society, which of
course out-numbers us by miles.

Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via
BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many civil
rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence feeds
the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.

On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 11 00:44:10 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 18:44:10 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
 <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
 <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would
discriminate against any number of minority people if they could? Or
who would have at one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart
after getting to know someone they were previously opposed to? It's
hard to hate from up close, but it's a lot easier to keep your
distance when the law says you can. What if 95% of landlord in a given
state would discriminate against a certain group of people if they
could, but because they can't, those people have somewhere to live,
and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad, after all?

Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Quoting:
> In many civil rights and equality issues,
> silence can be seen as acceptance.
> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
> End quote:
>
> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and those
> who are oppressed.
> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all victims
> via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own endeavors".
> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should know
> better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for we know
> the
> two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach for both; we as
> lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we will never have
> equality,
> (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves only equity.  After all, we know
> that equity is a remedial measure not a status of society.
> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for civil
> rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by arbitrary statute
> for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, "the lord giveth, and
> the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be created so too can they be
> removed by statute.
> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was thrown
> around regularly.
>
> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  If I
> am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered into a realm
> where my free property rights are infringed whereby I have no complete
> say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to enter my land.  To me
> this is a problem; for if I truly own my land then I have the right to do
> with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe on land that borders mine.
> I
> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply have
> constructive dialogue.
> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up to
> me
> how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>
> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this sounds
> real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live the life you
> earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves "individually"
> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with sightees
> one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted society, which of
> course out-numbers us by miles.
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many
> civil
> rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence
> feeds
> the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>
> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From sanho817 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 11 00:55:31 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 18:55:31 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
 <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
 <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>

*about, *landlords. Apologies for the typos lately. I just realized
that my screen-reader wasn't telling me about spelling errors in Edge
lately. I fixed it, and it shouldn't continue to happen. No disrespect
intended.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would
> discriminate against any number of minority people if they could? Or
> who would have at one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart
> after getting to know someone they were previously opposed to? It's
> hard to hate from up close, but it's a lot easier to keep your
> distance when the law says you can. What if 95% of landlord in a given
> state would discriminate against a certain group of people if they
> could, but because they can't, those people have somewhere to live,
> and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad, after all?
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> In many civil rights and equality issues,
>> silence can be seen as acceptance.
>> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>> End quote:
>>
>> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and
>> those
>> who are oppressed.
>> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
>> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all
>> victims
>> via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own endeavors".
>> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should know
>> better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for we know
>> the
>> two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach for both; we as
>> lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we will never have
>> equality,
>> (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves only equity.  After all, we
>> know
>> that equity is a remedial measure not a status of society.
>> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for
>> civil
>> rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by arbitrary statute
>> for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, "the lord giveth,
>> and
>> the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be created so too can they
>> be
>> removed by statute.
>> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was thrown
>> around regularly.
>>
>> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  If
>> I
>> am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered into a
>> realm
>> where my free property rights are infringed whereby I have no complete
>> say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to enter my land.  To
>> me
>> this is a problem; for if I truly own my land then I have the right to do
>> with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe on land that borders mine.
>> I
>> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply
>> have
>> constructive dialogue.
>> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up to
>> me
>> how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>>
>> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this
>> sounds
>> real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live the life you
>> earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves "individually"
>> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with sightees
>> one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted society, which of
>> course out-numbers us by miles.
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via
>> BlindLaw
>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many
>> civil
>> rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence
>> feeds
>> the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>
>> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>


-- 
He/Him


From laurenbishop96 at icloud.com  Sat Mar 11 01:52:37 2023
From: laurenbishop96 at icloud.com (Lauren Bishop)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:52:37 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC26DC6B-7479-468F-A462-E61F61FDAB42@icloud.com>

If landlords can discriminate, virtually, no one would have a place to live. Furthermore, even more people would likely not be able to even own a business because a lot of businesses rent space. In addition, if one goes to say that the fair housing act is arbitrary, what statute will come next? The ADA, fair labor, standards, act, FMLA, other civil rights acts? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 7:57 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> *about, *landlords. Apologies for the typos lately. I just realized
> that my screen-reader wasn't telling me about spelling errors in Edge
> lately. I fixed it, and it shouldn't continue to happen. No disrespect
> intended.
> 
> Warmth,
> Sanho
> 
>> On 3/10/23, Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mike,
>> 
>> Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would
>> discriminate against any number of minority people if they could? Or
>> who would have at one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart
>> after getting to know someone they were previously opposed to? It's
>> hard to hate from up close, but it's a lot easier to keep your
>> distance when the law says you can. What if 95% of landlord in a given
>> state would discriminate against a certain group of people if they
>> could, but because they can't, those people have somewhere to live,
>> and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad, after all?
>> 
>> Sanho
>> 
>>> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Quoting:
>>> In many civil rights and equality issues,
>>> silence can be seen as acceptance.
>>> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>> End quote:
>>> 
>>> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and
>>> those
>>> who are oppressed.
>>> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
>>> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all
>>> victims
>>> via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own endeavors".
>>> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should know
>>> better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for we know
>>> the
>>> two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach for both; we as
>>> lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we will never have
>>> equality,
>>> (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves only equity.  After all, we
>>> know
>>> that equity is a remedial measure not a status of society.
>>> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for
>>> civil
>>> rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by arbitrary statute
>>> for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, "the lord giveth,
>>> and
>>> the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be created so too can they
>>> be
>>> removed by statute.
>>> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was thrown
>>> around regularly.
>>> 
>>> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  If
>>> I
>>> am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered into a
>>> realm
>>> where my free property rights are infringed whereby I have no complete
>>> say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to enter my land.  To
>>> me
>>> this is a problem; for if I truly own my land then I have the right to do
>>> with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe on land that borders mine.
>>> I
>>> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply
>>> have
>>> constructive dialogue.
>>> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up to
>>> me
>>> how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>>> 
>>> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this
>>> sounds
>>> real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live the life you
>>> earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves "individually"
>>> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with sightees
>>> one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted society, which of
>>> course out-numbers us by miles.
>>> 
>>> Please advise as you like.
>>> 
>>> Mike M.
>>> 
>>> Mike mcglashon
>>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>> 
>>> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many
>>> civil
>>> rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence
>>> feeds
>>> the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>> 
>>> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
>>> mcast.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> He/Him
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> He/Him
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laurenbishop96%40icloud.com


From jtfetter at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 11 05:31:09 2023
From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:31:09 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
References: <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3C414D3A-F3CA-4ED7-A6C2-BC88BE7CA4AD@yahoo.com>

Mike,
I agree that far too many in our society have chosen perpetual victimhood as their profession. I vehemently disagree, however, with your critique of the Fair Housing Act and similar laws. You seem to argue that your property should be yours to do with as you wish. But what is property other than a creature of law? What other than the state prevents someone who covets  your property from simply taking it from you by force?  
And although I have steered well clear of property law since taking the bar, I vaguely remember that all sorts of laws, e.g. easements and zoning laws, place far more burdensome restrictions on your use of a given piece of property than the FHA does. Try building an apartment complex on a lot in a neighborhood zoned for single family use and see how far you get. Not to mention that, when the FHA was passed, restrictive covenants forbidding the sale of property in certain neighborhoods to nonwhites were all too common.
If landlords were all perfectly rational actors, laws such as the FHA may not be necessary. But they are not. And property owners who do not like such laws absolutely have a choice: follow these laws anyway or  don’t become a covered landlord  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 5:05 PM, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Quoting:
> In many civil rights and equality issues, 
> silence can be seen as acceptance. 
> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
> End quote:
> 
> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and those
> who are oppressed.
> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all victims
> via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own endeavors".
> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should know
> better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for we know the
> two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach for both; we as
> lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we will never have equality,
> (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves only equity.  After all, we know
> that equity is a remedial measure not a status of society.
> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for civil
> rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by arbitrary statute
> for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, "the lord giveth, and
> the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be created so too can they be
> removed by statute.
> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was thrown
> around regularly.  
> 
> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  If I
> am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered into a realm
> where my free property rights are infringed whereby I have no complete
> say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to enter my land.  To me
> this is a problem; for if I truly own my land then I have the right to do
> with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe on land that borders mine.  I
> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply have
> constructive dialogue.
> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up to me
> how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
> 
> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this sounds
> real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live the life you
> earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves "individually"
> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with sightees
> one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted society, which of
> course out-numbers us by miles.
> 
> Please advise as you like.
> 
> Mike M.
> 
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
> 
> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many civil
> rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. Silence feeds
> the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
> 
> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
> mcast.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com



From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Sat Mar 11 18:05:54 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:05:54 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
 <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
 <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e4f201d95444$229f8810$67de9830$@comcast.net>

Quoting:
What if 95% of landlord in a given state would discriminate against a
certain group of people if they could, but because they can't, those people
have somewhere to live, and the landlord realizes those people aren't so
bad, after all?
End quote:
I do not believe that the issue here is Whether a landlord has a change of
heart or not; human nature would say that one would have a change of heart
and that would be a good thing.  The issue for me is the fact that it is my
land; and no governmental entity should have the right to legally intrude
upon it.
Of course I do not extend this ideology to private land that is used for
public use, such as a mom and pop corner grocery.  One might argue that a
landlord, by virtue of renting, has opened his land for public use, and
hence is subject to regulation.  To this I say "no" because even in a
landlord/tenant relationship, both the landlord and the existing tenant can
keep the general public off the property.  Hence the distinction where the
line for governmental regulation should be.
Therefore, if I am a landlord, and I only wish to rent to single unmarried
childless tenants with income of more than $100k per year, then it should be
my right to do so.  Furthermore, if I only wish to rent to black persons
instead of white ones that should be my right as well.  

Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 6:44 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

Mike,

Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would discriminate
against any number of minority people if they could? Or who would have at
one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart after getting to know
someone they were previously opposed to? It's hard to hate from up close,
but it's a lot easier to keep your distance when the law says you can. What
if 95% of landlord in a given state would discriminate against a certain
group of people if they could, but because they can't, those people have
somewhere to live, and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad,
after all?

Sanho

On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Quoting:
> In many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as 
> acceptance.
> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
> End quote:
>
> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and 
> those who are oppressed.
> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all 
> victims via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own
endeavors".
> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should 
> know better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for 
> we know the two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach 
> for both; we as lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we 
> will never have equality, (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves 
> only equity.  After all, we know that equity is a remedial measure not 
> a status of society.
> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for 
> civil rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by 
> arbitrary statute for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying goes, 
> "the lord giveth, and the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights can be 
> created so too can they be removed by statute.
> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was 
> thrown around regularly.
>
> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  
> If I am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered 
> into a realm where my free property rights are infringed whereby I 
> have no complete say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to 
> enter my land.  To me this is a problem; for if I truly own my land 
> then I have the right to do with it as I wish as long as I do not infringe
on land that borders mine.
> I
> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone simply 
> have constructive dialogue.
> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally up 
> to me how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>
> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this 
> sounds real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live 
> the life you earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe ourselves
"individually"
> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with 
> sightees one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted 
> society, which of course out-numbers us by miles.
>
> Please advise as you like.
>
> Mike M.
>
> Mike mcglashon
> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
> Ph: 618 783 9331
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via 
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>
> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In many 
> civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as acceptance. 
> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>
> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglasho
> n%40co
> mcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net



From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Sat Mar 11 18:06:46 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:06:46 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57e01d9536b$9fa9c610$defd5230$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexsex-mi8qnoE3RhXCNvhZrn3WK9wQPihW9uS6q3rGLTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c66901d95371$ebb3cfa0$c31b6ee0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpewkkJu9bwSj8n-PhFcRCiGjSyMYhc22D_7K=_tnXYDLYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02df01d95384$0f5fb7e0$2e1f27a0$@comcast.net>
 <020801d95399$b7f552b0$27dff810$@gmail.com>
 <7ACAC9C6-10C3-42EE-8A68-9B81E8293818@skamarakas.com>
 <ce7101d953a4$8f2f3d40$ad8db7c0$@comcast.net>
 <CAL6jpexSCSmw1p57mThzn_yGUO3=soPg=7rvGXQ97zR5SLn0PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e50601d95444$41991100$c4cb3300$@comcast.net>

No disrespect taken.


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho
Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 6:56 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

*about, *landlords. Apologies for the typos lately. I just realized that my
screen-reader wasn't telling me about spelling errors in Edge lately. I
fixed it, and it shouldn't continue to happen. No disrespect intended.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/10/23, Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would 
> discriminate against any number of minority people if they could? Or 
> who would have at one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart 
> after getting to know someone they were previously opposed to? It's 
> hard to hate from up close, but it's a lot easier to keep your 
> distance when the law says you can. What if 95% of landlord in a given 
> state would discriminate against a certain group of people if they 
> could, but because they can't, those people have somewhere to live, 
> and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad, after all?
>
> Sanho
>
> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Quoting:
>> In many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as 
>> acceptance.
>> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>> End quote:
>>
>> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and 
>> those who are oppressed.
>> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
>> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all 
>> victims via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own 
>> endeavors".
>> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should 
>> know better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; for 
>> we know the two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer reach 
>> for both; we as lawyers know that only one is reachable.  Since we 
>> will never have equality, (I wouldn't want it anyways), this leaves 
>> only equity.  After all, we know that equity is a remedial measure 
>> not a status of society.
>> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for 
>> civil rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by 
>> arbitrary statute for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying 
>> goes, "the lord giveth, and the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights 
>> can be created so too can they be removed by statute.
>> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was 
>> thrown around regularly.
>>
>> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  
>> If I am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered 
>> into a realm where my free property rights are infringed whereby I 
>> have no complete say-so on who and for what reason I allow another to 
>> enter my land.  To me this is a problem; for if I truly own my land 
>> then I have the right to do with it as I wish as long as I do not 
>> infringe on land that borders mine.
>> I
>> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone 
>> simply have constructive dialogue.
>> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally 
>> up to me how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>>
>> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this 
>> sounds real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live 
>> the life you earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe 
>> ourselves "individually"
>> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with 
>> sightees one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted 
>> society, which of course out-numbers us by miles.
>>
>> Please advise as you like.
>>
>> Mike M.
>>
>> Mike mcglashon
>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via 
>> BlindLaw
>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>
>> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In 
>> many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as 
>> acceptance. Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>
>> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglash
>> on%40co
>> mcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmai
>> l.com
>>
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40co
mcast.net



From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Sat Mar 11 18:08:05 2023
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:08:05 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
In-Reply-To: <AC26DC6B-7479-468F-A462-E61F61FDAB42@icloud.com>
References: <CAL6jpex=GoPvYc=Z5v_b3m59830Ej6o33XPQX6DgnSsiVfD4nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC26DC6B-7479-468F-A462-E61F61FDAB42@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <e53001d95444$70594c30$510be490$@comcast.net>

Quoting:
if one goes to say that the fair housing act is arbitrary, what statute will come next? The ADA, fair labor, standards, act, FMLA, other civil rights acts?
End quote:
Yep you got it!!


Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lauren Bishop via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 7:53 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Lauren Bishop <laurenbishop96 at icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others

If landlords can discriminate, virtually, no one would have a place to live. Furthermore, even more people would likely not be able to even own a business because a lot of businesses rent space. In addition, if one goes to say that the fair housing act is arbitrary, what statute will come next? The ADA, fair labor, standards, act, FMLA, other civil rights acts? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 7:57 PM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> *about, *landlords. Apologies for the typos lately. I just realized 
> that my screen-reader wasn't telling me about spelling errors in Edge 
> lately. I fixed it, and it shouldn't continue to happen. No disrespect 
> intended.
> 
> Warmth,
> Sanho
> 
>> On 3/10/23, Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mike,
>> 
>> Honest question: What baout the many, many landlords who would 
>> discriminate against any number of minority people if they could? Or 
>> who would have at one point, but couldn't, and had a change of heart 
>> after getting to know someone they were previously opposed to? It's 
>> hard to hate from up close, but it's a lot easier to keep your 
>> distance when the law says you can. What if 95% of landlord in a 
>> given state would discriminate against a certain group of people if 
>> they could, but because they can't, those people have somewhere to 
>> live, and the landlord realizes those people aren't so bad, after all?
>> 
>> Sanho
>> 
>>> On 3/10/23, MIKE MCGLASHON via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Quoting:
>>> In many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as 
>>> acceptance.
>>> Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>> End quote:
>>> 
>>> Your statement assumes that there are such persons as oppressors and 
>>> those who are oppressed.
>>> I for one am neither; I am simply a person.
>>> That is the problem with today's society in my opinion; "we are all 
>>> victims via other people's fortunes" versus recipients of our own 
>>> endeavors".
>>> I further believe as legal minds, we of all people in society should 
>>> know better than to intermingle the terms of equity and equality; 
>>> for we know the two are not synonymous.  Yet, I hear many a lawyer 
>>> reach for both; we as lawyers know that only one is reachable.  
>>> Since we will never have equality, (I wouldn't want it anyways), 
>>> this leaves only equity.  After all, we know that equity is a 
>>> remedial measure not a status of society.
>>> Next, we come to "civil rights".  To me this is a dangerous term for 
>>> civil rights are just those; artificial rights given to us by 
>>> arbitrary statute for arbitrary purposes.  But as the old saying 
>>> goes, "the lord giveth, and the lord taketh away."  Hence, if rights 
>>> can be created so too can they be removed by statute.
>>> Last I heard of such implementations, the term "Soviet Union" was 
>>> thrown around regularly.
>>> 
>>> A good example of a arbitrary civil right is the "fair housing act".  
>>> If I am a landowner who wishes to play landlord, I now have entered 
>>> into a realm where my free property rights are infringed whereby I 
>>> have no complete say-so on who and for what reason I allow another 
>>> to enter my land.  To me this is a problem; for if I truly own my 
>>> land then I have the right to do with it as I wish as long as I do 
>>> not infringe on land that borders mine.
>>> I
>>> am sure there other examples but I do not wish to offend anyone 
>>> simply have constructive dialogue.
>>> In sum, I am not an oppressor, nor am I oppressed and it is totally 
>>> up to me how, where, when, and with whom I engineer my life.
>>> 
>>> Also, the NFB has a slogan "live the life you want".  Although this 
>>> sounds real sweet in theory, I think the statement should say "live 
>>> the life you earn".  In my humble opinion, we as blindees owe 
>>> ourselves "individually"
>>> not necessarily "collectively" the actions of getting along with 
>>> sightees one-by-one instead of trying to mold an entire sighted 
>>> society, which of course out-numbers us by miles.
>>> 
>>> Please advise as you like.
>>> 
>>> Mike M.
>>> 
>>> Mike mcglashon
>>> Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
>>> Ph: 618 783 9331
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of jim--- via 
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:06 PM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: jim at skamarakas.com
>>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Respect for Others
>>> 
>>> We can only try to work towards a better future for everyone.  In 
>>> many civil rights and equality issues, silence can be seen as 
>>> acceptance. Silence feeds the oppressor and stifles the oppressed.
>>> 
>>> On an unrelated note https://youtu.be/cOeKidp-iWo
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglas
>>> hon%40co
>>> mcast.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> BlindLaw:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gma
>>> il.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> He/Him
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> He/Him
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laurenbishop96%4
> 0icloud.com

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40comcast.net



From glnorman15 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 11 22:34:01 2023
From: glnorman15 at hotmail.com (GL Norman)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 22:34:01 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Urgency of Civility Conf. in Wash. D.C.
Message-ID: <MN2PR02MB675039A6CF08DECE2EC2D929D1BB9@MN2PR02MB6750.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Greetings:
See this great conference a dear friend of mine has established: Urgency of Civility.
Conf. in Wash. D.C. In May, https://UrgencyOfCivility.com/events



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 11 22:59:36 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:59:36 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] Michigan Attorneys
Message-ID: <CAL6jpeyJ5jen=JNZ8uXLZqoLRCTUPcCVM36oN-6se00V61Zo9Q@mail.gmail.com>

All,

If there are any Michigan-based attorneys here, please message me off list.

Warmth,
Sanho

-- 
He/Him


From glnorman15 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 11 23:17:57 2023
From: glnorman15 at hotmail.com (GL Norman)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 23:17:57 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MN2PR02MB67504A187CE484B3E2EFD1CCD1BB9@MN2PR02MB6750.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Friends:
I am so happy for my dear friend, Dr. Laura Hoffman, Esq. who has been offered a full-time, fully fledged, position at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law. (So glad my J.D.-school finally did wright by her.) She served as my mentor when I first started my LLM.
This is a great step forward for her as an individual and as an incredible teacher and scholar but is a step forward for visually impaired or blind attorneys.
Legal education remains woefully underrepresented by those with disabilities. I am sure that this topic and other topics related to equity will be discussed at our light breakfast and discussion forum at the state bar forum in Ocean City, Maryland, on 9 June.

From jtfetter at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 12 00:36:02 2023
From: jtfetter at yahoo.com (James Fetter)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 18:36:02 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR02MB67504A187CE484B3E2EFD1CCD1BB9@MN2PR02MB6750.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR02MB67504A187CE484B3E2EFD1CCD1BB9@MN2PR02MB6750.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <07B057B5-830E-4002-AEF5-5ABE66C3FFE7@yahoo.com>

This is wonderful! I would love to hear more, so feel free to email me off list unless you would prefer to share on the list as well. I happen to live fairly close to that law school.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 11, 2023, at 5:19 PM, GL Norman via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Friends:
> I am so happy for my dear friend, Dr. Laura Hoffman, Esq. who has been offered a full-time, fully fledged, position at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law. (So glad my J.D.-school finally did wright by her.) She served as my mentor when I first started my LLM.
> This is a great step forward for her as an individual and as an incredible teacher and scholar but is a step forward for visually impaired or blind attorneys.
> Legal education remains woefully underrepresented by those with disabilities. I am sure that this topic and other topics related to equity will be discussed at our light breakfast and discussion forum at the state bar forum in Ocean City, Maryland, on 9 June.
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jtfetter%40yahoo.com



From matthewj.smith1914 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 13:40:45 2023
From: matthewj.smith1914 at gmail.com (Matthew Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 08:40:45 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
Message-ID: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>

Goodmorning,
I am currently preparing to give my first oral argument for legal writing. I am not able to use my laptop during the actual arguments but, I was wondering what alternatives are there to supplementing that use. I would prefer to use an electronic due to not having access the ability of producing braill notes  on campus. I also wanted to know what was an approach to memorizing the arguments while answering questions on the material. During practice I attempted to memorize all of the argument but was unsuccessful. Are there any tips about managing your place in your argument wile answering questions. I thank you in advance your help.

Matthew J. Smith

From laurenbishop96 at icloud.com  Tue Mar 14 13:47:39 2023
From: laurenbishop96 at icloud.com (Lauren Bishop)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:47:39 -0400
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
In-Reply-To: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
References: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8395551D-2038-4D08-87D1-D628CE85995F@icloud.com>

Hi Mathew,
For my argument, I had a list of the key cases that I was going to discuss, and the record citations for my key facts. I had this in a Microsoft Word document, and I had a braille display hooked up to my laptop. Since you need your notes, and it is impossible for you to print braille notes on campus, you are legally entitled to have your laptop and a braille display or some other braille output device to help you with this argument.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 14, 2023, at 9:42 AM, Matthew Smith via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Goodmorning,
> I am currently preparing to give my first oral argument for legal writing. I am not able to use my laptop during the actual arguments but, I was wondering what alternatives are there to supplementing that use. I would prefer to use an electronic due to not having access the ability of producing braill notes  on campus. I also wanted to know what was an approach to memorizing the arguments while answering questions on the material. During practice I attempted to memorize all of the argument but was unsuccessful. Are there any tips about managing your place in your argument wile answering questions. I thank you in advance your help.
> 
> Matthew J. Smith
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/laurenbishop96%40icloud.com


From BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com  Tue Mar 14 15:48:54 2023
From: BrianUnitt at holsteinlaw.com (Brian Unitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:48:54 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
In-Reply-To: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
References: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR12MB351822309B491BB18DA76D57C5BE9@MN2PR12MB3518.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Matthew,

I will share some things I have done over the past 40 years, and apologize for the length of this reply. In the end though, what is the least distracting for you is what you should insist on. 

Since I started practicing before computers were accessible, I used a slate and stylus for all my notes. The trick I learned in college and law school was not to use braille paper, but to use notebook paper, or later on, legal pads. That paper isn't as durable, but my experience was that it lasted through exams, and in practice through the conclusion of the case they related to. In the early '00s I had a PacMate from Freedom Scientific and that was great until I wore it out. I experimented with several iPad and Braille display combos but was never comfortable with the reliability of the setup, too many potential failure points. You don't want to be standing in front of the court messing with your technology instead of making your argument. I now have a Focus 40 Blue display and often use the scratchpad function for my outline. I set the righthand rocker to display panning and the left to paragraph, and I separate my main points with two hard returns so I can skip through them by paragraph with left Rocker if I need to change course base on the questioning. But mostly I have gone back to slate and stylus. There's no battery to die and no Bluetooth connection to drop.

To me, the key to an effective presentation is to have most of what you might need to tell the court in your head. Only use your notes for an outline of main points to kkeep you on track, and to reference key quotes (short ones) and citations as needed.

If using your laptop will make you most comfortable and able to most effectively do your job, then you should insist on it. I once had court security tell me I couldn't take my PacMate into the courtroom because of a no electronics policy, and many years before that in the same court they tried to confiscate my stylus. In both cases I told them they were the tools I used to represent my client, and asked them to take it up with the Presiding Justice. Security was overridden both times.

Best of luck to you, oral argument is to me the most enjoyable part of appellate advocacy.

Brian
Brian C. Unitt
Certified Specialist in Appellate Law
By the State Bar of California

Law Office of Brian C. Unitt
6185 Magnolia Ave, PMB 40
Riverside, CA 92506 
P: 951-682-7030
E: brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com

NOTICE:  This communication is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain attorney/client information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this communication to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply email or by telephone and immediately delete this communication and all its attachments.

Confidentiality Disclaimer 
This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. 
If you are not the author's intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete all copies, both electronic and printed, and contact the author immediately

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Matthew Smith via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:41 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: Matthew Smith <matthewj.smith1914 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments

Goodmorning,
I am currently preparing to give my first oral argument for legal writing. I am not able to use my laptop during the actual arguments but, I was wondering what alternatives are there to supplementing that use. I would prefer to use an electronic due to not having access the ability of producing braill notes  on campus. I also wanted to know what was an approach to memorizing the arguments while answering questions on the material. During practice I attempted to memorize all of the argument but was unsuccessful. Are there any tips about managing your place in your argument wile answering questions. I thank you in advance your help.

Matthew J. Smith
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/brianunitt%40holsteinlaw.com


From sanho817 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 18:17:31 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 13:17:31 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR12MB351822309B491BB18DA76D57C5BE9@MN2PR12MB3518.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
References: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
 <MN2PR12MB351822309B491BB18DA76D57C5BE9@MN2PR12MB3518.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpeyE4b8XP1L4fS4hUxuZHFa2+3kWjMhNEKD-+b6dgWmsNA@mail.gmail.com>

Matthew:

I'm emailing you off-list.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/14/23, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Matthew,
>
> I will share some things I have done over the past 40 years, and apologize
> for the length of this reply. In the end though, what is the least
> distracting for you is what you should insist on.
>
> Since I started practicing before computers were accessible, I used a slate
> and stylus for all my notes. The trick I learned in college and law school
> was not to use braille paper, but to use notebook paper, or later on, legal
> pads. That paper isn't as durable, but my experience was that it lasted
> through exams, and in practice through the conclusion of the case they
> related to. In the early '00s I had a PacMate from Freedom Scientific and
> that was great until I wore it out. I experimented with several iPad and
> Braille display combos but was never comfortable with the reliability of the
> setup, too many potential failure points. You don't want to be standing in
> front of the court messing with your technology instead of making your
> argument. I now have a Focus 40 Blue display and often use the scratchpad
> function for my outline. I set the righthand rocker to display panning and
> the left to paragraph, and I separate my main points with two hard returns
> so I can skip through them by paragraph with left Rocker if I need to change
> course base on the questioning. But mostly I have gone back to slate and
> stylus. There's no battery to die and no Bluetooth connection to drop.
>
> To me, the key to an effective presentation is to have most of what you
> might need to tell the court in your head. Only use your notes for an
> outline of main points to kkeep you on track, and to reference key quotes
> (short ones) and citations as needed.
>
> If using your laptop will make you most comfortable and able to most
> effectively do your job, then you should insist on it. I once had court
> security tell me I couldn't take my PacMate into the courtroom because of a
> no electronics policy, and many years before that in the same court they
> tried to confiscate my stylus. In both cases I told them they were the tools
> I used to represent my client, and asked them to take it up with the
> Presiding Justice. Security was overridden both times.
>
> Best of luck to you, oral argument is to me the most enjoyable part of
> appellate advocacy.
>
> Brian
> Brian C. Unitt
> Certified Specialist in Appellate Law
> By the State Bar of California
>
> Law Office of Brian C. Unitt
> 6185 Magnolia Ave, PMB 40
> Riverside, CA 92506
> P: 951-682-7030
> E: brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com
>
> NOTICE:  This communication is intended for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed and may contain attorney/client information
> that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable
> law.  If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient or
> the employee or agent responsible for delivering this communication to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If
> you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
> by reply email or by telephone and immediately delete this communication and
> all its attachments.
>
> Confidentiality Disclaimer
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> individual(s) to whom it is addressed. The information contained in this
> message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure.
> If you are not the author's intended recipient, be advised that you have
> received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
> printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this email in error please delete all copies, both electronic and
> printed, and contact the author immediately
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Matthew Smith via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:41 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Matthew Smith <matthewj.smith1914 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
>
> Goodmorning,
> I am currently preparing to give my first oral argument for legal writing. I
> am not able to use my laptop during the actual arguments but, I was
> wondering what alternatives are there to supplementing that use. I would
> prefer to use an electronic due to not having access the ability of
> producing braill notes  on campus. I also wanted to know what was an
> approach to memorizing the arguments while answering questions on the
> material. During practice I attempted to memorize all of the argument but
> was unsuccessful. Are there any tips about managing your place in your
> argument wile answering questions. I thank you in advance your help.
>
> Matthew J. Smith
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/brianunitt%40holsteinlaw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From rodalcidonis at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 18:47:15 2023
From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:47:15 -0400
Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpeyE4b8XP1L4fS4hUxuZHFa2+3kWjMhNEKD-+b6dgWmsNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D54920F-B470-4826-A74D-F410165F194E@gmail.com>
 <MN2PR12MB351822309B491BB18DA76D57C5BE9@MN2PR12MB3518.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAL6jpeyE4b8XP1L4fS4hUxuZHFa2+3kWjMhNEKD-+b6dgWmsNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901d956a5$656746c0$3035d440$@gmail.com>

OneNote is also a great tool that I used a lot when I was practicing law. It has become even more accessible over the last few years. I still use it.

That combined with a good Braille display and an aftershock headset, you should be good to go, if that fits your style.

Having said that, as a blind person, you should never step into a courtroom without a plan B, as technology frequently fail. I always had back up Braille copies in case I had a need to refer to my outline.

I, too, had been told once that I couldn't use my laptop at a hearing. I politely asked the court staff to inform the judge that I was blind and that I needed to use my laptop to represent my client, and everything was fine.

Good luck.


Rod,



Rod Alcidonis


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 2:18 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments

Matthew:

I'm emailing you off-list.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/14/23, Brian Unitt via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Matthew,
>
> I will share some things I have done over the past 40 years, and 
> apologize for the length of this reply. In the end though, what is the 
> least distracting for you is what you should insist on.
>
> Since I started practicing before computers were accessible, I used a 
> slate and stylus for all my notes. The trick I learned in college and 
> law school was not to use braille paper, but to use notebook paper, or 
> later on, legal pads. That paper isn't as durable, but my experience 
> was that it lasted through exams, and in practice through the 
> conclusion of the case they related to. In the early '00s I had a 
> PacMate from Freedom Scientific and that was great until I wore it 
> out. I experimented with several iPad and Braille display combos but 
> was never comfortable with the reliability of the setup, too many 
> potential failure points. You don't want to be standing in front of 
> the court messing with your technology instead of making your 
> argument. I now have a Focus 40 Blue display and often use the 
> scratchpad function for my outline. I set the righthand rocker to 
> display panning and the left to paragraph, and I separate my main 
> points with two hard returns so I can skip through them by paragraph 
> with left Rocker if I need to change course base on the questioning. But mostly I have gone back to slate and stylus. There's no battery to die and no Bluetooth connection to drop.
>
> To me, the key to an effective presentation is to have most of what 
> you might need to tell the court in your head. Only use your notes for 
> an outline of main points to kkeep you on track, and to reference key 
> quotes (short ones) and citations as needed.
>
> If using your laptop will make you most comfortable and able to most 
> effectively do your job, then you should insist on it. I once had 
> court security tell me I couldn't take my PacMate into the courtroom 
> because of a no electronics policy, and many years before that in the 
> same court they tried to confiscate my stylus. In both cases I told 
> them they were the tools I used to represent my client, and asked them 
> to take it up with the Presiding Justice. Security was overridden both times.
>
> Best of luck to you, oral argument is to me the most enjoyable part of 
> appellate advocacy.
>
> Brian
> Brian C. Unitt
> Certified Specialist in Appellate Law
> By the State Bar of California
>
> Law Office of Brian C. Unitt
> 6185 Magnolia Ave, PMB 40
> Riverside, CA 92506
> P: 951-682-7030
> E: brianunitt at holsteinlaw.com
>
> NOTICE:  This communication is intended for the use of the individual 
> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain attorney/client 
> information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from 
> disclosure under applicable law.  If the reader of this communication 
> is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for 
> delivering this communication to the intended recipient, you are 
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of 
> this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this 
> communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply email or 
> by telephone and immediately delete this communication and all its attachments.
>
> Confidentiality Disclaimer
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> individual(s) to whom it is addressed. The information contained in 
> this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure.
> If you are not the author's intended recipient, be advised that you 
> have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, 
> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. 
> If you have received this email in error please delete all copies, 
> both electronic and printed, and contact the author immediately
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Matthew 
> Smith via BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:41 AM
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Matthew Smith <matthewj.smith1914 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Oral Arguments
>
> Goodmorning,
> I am currently preparing to give my first oral argument for legal 
> writing. I am not able to use my laptop during the actual arguments 
> but, I was wondering what alternatives are there to supplementing that 
> use. I would prefer to use an electronic due to not having access the 
> ability of producing braill notes  on campus. I also wanted to know 
> what was an approach to memorizing the arguments while answering 
> questions on the material. During practice I attempted to memorize all 
> of the argument but was unsuccessful. Are there any tips about 
> managing your place in your argument wile answering questions. I thank you in advance your help.
>
> Matthew J. Smith
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/brianunitt%40hol
> steinlaw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com



From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 19 09:26:18 2023
From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:56:18 +0530
Subject: [blindLaw] arguing matters in court: a roadblock and a possible
 way forward
In-Reply-To: <4cb7afe92cb1481d86bad4fe1ca977a2@cov.com>
References: <CADFycPaUpy9P_Hpp9puwmqH9gNohD3ojx+K5VCrBV0U=CbyASg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL6jpeyFWRc-JsS+tihHj+imt7P3-soMKC8G8yGSK=r8g2-Org@mail.gmail.com>
 <KL1PR0601MB5726079C80594F52224ED51BFD299@KL1PR0601MB5726.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <4cb7afe92cb1481d86bad4fe1ca977a2@cov.com>
Message-ID: <CADFycPbDKWnxNTVNEpGt2-ejafgKvHx=JM_n96xfhjWC9MyGaw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nandini. Sorry I missed this.

I know have an intern who assists me full-time, somewhat like the US
paralegal. She goes to court with me, converts inaccessible
documents/judgments when I don't have the time, reads out handwritten
documents and helps with difficult websites. It has been a game-changer,
honestly.

Rahul

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 at 20:55, Singh, Nandini via BlindLaw <
blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Hi Rahul,
> As I am archiving older mail, I saw this item and wanted to see how this
> unfolded. Did you and your firm come up with something that works for
> everyone in your IP litigation practice?
>
> Regards,
> Nikki
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rahul Bajaj via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2022 11:55 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <BlindLaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] arguing matters in court: a roadblock and a
> possible way forward
>
> [EXTERNAL]
>
> With legal and non-legal aspects. On the legal side, I would need help in
> getting the person to read out verbatim certain extracts that I would like
> the judge to consider. to be able to pull out, in short order, relevant
> pages that the judge may ask a question about and be able to assist me the
> whole time in answering those questions. In general, I would need help in
> navigating the "complex, getting to the desired courtroom, being taken to
> the lectern, being able to speak with the court master if anything comes up
> and that kind of thing.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ________________________________
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of Sanho
> Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2022 9:00:01 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] arguing matters in court: a roadblock and a
> possible way forward
>
> Rahul,
>
> Could you describe some of the in-court issues you might need help with?
>
> Warmth,
> Sanho
>
> On 10/16/22, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Good morning from New Delhi. I work as a practicing attorney at an IP and
> > civil litigation firm in Delhi. In litigation, making regular appearances
> > before judges is vital for gaining the confidence of the bar, the bench
> and
> > the litigant public. I have clerked for a Supreme Court judge before and
> > did some specialized litigation in my law firm job as a fresh law
> graduate.
> > but this is my first actual experience of doing a hardcore litigation
> job -
> > something I have always wanted to try. I am 4 months in. One challenge I
> > have been facing is not having a mechanism to appear in court on my own
> and
> > argue matters before judges. Part of the reason for this not happening is
> > because it takes time to build experience and trust.  but it also has to
> do
> > with accessibility. Sharing below the key features of an exchange with a
> > senior colleague at the firm I had recently apropos this. keen to hear
> any
> > constructive suggestions on the way forward.
> >
> > I said to him:
> > "Going forward, I am wondering what we can do to enable me to go solo to
> a
> > court and do the needful in a given
> > matter. For instance, this coming Monday, I think I would have been more
> > useful to the firm if I were going to a court where no one else is able
> to
> > go
> > due to the volume of matters, as opposed to going to the high court
> > [details of case redacted] where multiple people are anyway going, simply
> > to observe proceedings. Of course, in a given day, if there is no such
> > matter where there is scope
> > to contribute more than merely observing the proceedings, then it makes
> > sense to go just to observe matters. I guess what I am saying is that I
> > would not
> > like my choice of matters to be dictated by the accessibility of a court
> > complex but instead by where the firm might need me most and where I can
> > contribute
> > most. Equally, I understand that it would be easier for me to go for a
> > matter where I can tag along with a colleague or court clerks, as opposed
> > to
> > being on my own. And, of course, accessibility barriers cannot be simply
> > wished away...  That said, going forward, we should develop a system
> where
> > I can take up assignments where the firm can rely on me to be its face
> for
> > a
> > matter. And where this choice is not guided by accessibility, but factors
> > that are otherwise applicable, namely experience and trust. I am not sure
> > how
> > we can do this. I think the best way would be to hire an employee, part
> of
> > whose express mandate would be to assist me, inter alia, in court and
> with
> > accessibility
> > challenges. I am sure we can work out the logistics and commercials in a
> > mutually convenient fashion. What do you think?
> >
> > We had a good conversation about this. they shared that the reason why
> they
> > were hesitant to send me alone for a matter to a court was because there
> > wouldn't be a court staff or colleague to provide help. And that we
> needed
> > to figure out a way to deal with this. and that I shouldn't think that
> this
> > was a reflection on my abilities as a lawyer, but that it was a learning
> > process for them also.
> >
> > I suggested hiring a fresh law graduate as my assistant, with the salary
> > being shared 50-50 between me and the firm. that person can help me
> > with barriers of this nature, most notably court appearances. I will
> await
> > further correspondence.
> >
> > I understand that some litigation practices referenced above may be
> > unfamiliar to you. but the broad contours of the issue should be fairly
> > clear.
> >
> > Warmly,
> > Rahul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Rahul Bajaj
> > Attorney, Ira Law
> > Senior Associate Fellow, Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy
> > Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018), University of Oxford
> > Co-Founder, Mission Accessibility
> > Special Correspondent on the rights of persons with disabilities, Oxford
> > Human Rights Hub
> > Coordinator of the working group on accessibility, e-Committee, Supreme
> > Court of India
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindLaw mailing list
> > BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindLaw:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> He/Him
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nsingh%40cov.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rahul.bajaj1038%40gmail.com
>


-- 
--
Rahul Bajaj
Attorney, Ira Law
Senior Associate Fellow, Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy
Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018), University of Oxford
Co-Founder, Mission Accessibility
Special Correspondent on the rights of persons with disabilities, Oxford
Human Rights Hub
Coordinator of the working group on accessibility, e-Committee, Supreme
Court of India

From abhishekdhol at gmail.com  Sun Mar 19 13:40:21 2023
From: abhishekdhol at gmail.com (Abhishek Dhol)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:40:21 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Some questions on accessing a particular type of PDF as
 a blind law student
Message-ID: <CAPT-RkwiKrwY2uazdsUxj1fW-8GY8+4X19h9Go8n2DcqJ8AqzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,



1.       My name is Abhishek Dhol. I am a blind person and a user of the
Non-Visual Desktop Access (NVDA) screen-reader.

2.       I am currently in my second year of law school in the United
Kingdom, at Queen Mary University of London.

3.       I have encountered a PDF document which, when opened, says it is
“secured”, and therefore, can’t be accessed by a screen-reader, such as
NVDA.

4.       My institution subscribes to the PDF convertor software package
SensusAccess, which I normally use to convert inaccessible PDFs.

5.       I suspected that it would be impossible for SensusAccess to
convert this PDF, but I still tried.

6.       I got an error message, saying that it wasn’t possible to convert
this document.

7.       As this was a journal article, I was able to find an alternative
version online, using JStor. However, in another situation, this solution
may not work. Is anybody on this mailing list aware of methods to convert
such “secured” documents into screen-reader accessible ones?

8.       Alternatively, is there a setting which could be changed within
the PDF itself?



Thank you very much, in advance, for your time and assistance.



Regards,



Abhishek Dhol

From rfarber at jw.com  Sun Mar 19 14:38:39 2023
From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:38:39 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Some questions on accessing a particular type of PDF
 as a blind law student
In-Reply-To: <CAPT-RkwiKrwY2uazdsUxj1fW-8GY8+4X19h9Go8n2DcqJ8AqzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPT-RkwiKrwY2uazdsUxj1fW-8GY8+4X19h9Go8n2DcqJ8AqzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <284297dd1cc4443a9b88898e24469ce0@jw.com>

Hello Abhishek - Depending on the security settings, you can try to:

1.Try exporting the document to Word, or
2.Try printing the document and scanning it.

Regards,
Randy

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Abhishek Dhol via BlindLaw
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 8:40 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: Abhishek Dhol <abhishekdhol at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Some questions on accessing a particular type of PDF as a blind law student

**RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER – USE CAUTION**

Hi,



1.       My name is Abhishek Dhol. I am a blind person and a user of the
Non-Visual Desktop Access (NVDA) screen-reader.

2.       I am currently in my second year of law school in the United
Kingdom, at Queen Mary University of London.

3.       I have encountered a PDF document which, when opened, says it is
“secured”, and therefore, can’t be accessed by a screen-reader, such as NVDA.

4.       My institution subscribes to the PDF convertor software package
SensusAccess, which I normally use to convert inaccessible PDFs.

5.       I suspected that it would be impossible for SensusAccess to
convert this PDF, but I still tried.

6.       I got an error message, saying that it wasn’t possible to convert
this document.

7.       As this was a journal article, I was able to find an alternative
version online, using JStor. However, in another situation, this solution may not work. Is anybody on this mailing list aware of methods to convert such “secured” documents into screen-reader accessible ones?

8.       Alternatively, is there a setting which could be changed within
the PDF itself?



Thank you very much, in advance, for your time and assistance.



Regards,



Abhishek Dhol
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com

From president at nfbmd.org  Mon Mar 20 17:38:57 2023
From: president at nfbmd.org (Maryland President)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:38:57 -0400
Subject: [blindLaw] Job Opportunity: CMS
Message-ID: <02c201d95b52$d9b7fd60$8d27f820$@nfbmd.org>

Friends,

Please find below a job opportunity in my office at the Centers for Medicare
& Medicaid Services.  This has a short suspense date and will either close
this Friday or when a certain number of applications is reached, whichever
happens sooner.  Please share with your networks.

 

 

https://www.usajobs.gov/job/713668100

 

Summary

This position is located in the Department of Health & Human Services (HHS),
Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), Office of Equal Opportunity
and Civil Rights (OEOCR), Affirmative Employment Group (AEG).

As a Equal Employment Specialist (Prevention of Workplace Harassment),
GS-0260-9/11/12, you will perform duties for the functional area of the
Prevention of Workplace Harassment (PWH) Program.

 

*	 03/20/2023 to 03/24/2023


*       Salary


$64,957 - $122,459 per year


*       Pay scale & grade


GS 9 - 12

*	 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/how-to/job-announcement/locations>
Help


Location


1 vacancy in the following location:

o    <https://www.usajobs.gov/job/713668100#modal-trigger> 

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/job/713668100#modal-trigger> Woodlawn

 


*       Remote job


No


*       Telework eligible


Yes-as determined by the agency policy.


*       Travel Required


Not required


*       Relocation expenses reimbursed


No


*       Appointment type


Permanent -


*       Work schedule


Full-time -


*       Service


Competitive


*       Promotion potential


12


*       Job family (Series)


 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Search/Results?j=0260> 0260 Equal Employment
Opportunity


*       Supervisory status


No


*       Security clearance


 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/faq/job-announcement/security-clearances/>
Not Required


*       Drug test


No


*       Position sensitivity and risk


 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/faq/job-announcement/security-clearances/>
Moderate Risk (MR)


*       Trust determination process


 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/faq/job-announcement/security-clearances/>
Credentialing

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/faq/job-announcement/security-clearances/>
Suitability/Fitness

*	

  _____  



Announcement number


CMS-OEOCR-23-11889867-DHIRA


*       Control number


713668100

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/how-to/job-announcement/this-job-is-open-to/>



This job is open to


*
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/fede
ral-employees/#transition> 


 
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/fede
ral-employees/#transition> Career transition (CTAP, ICTAP, RPL)


 
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/fede
ral-employees/#transition> Federal employees who meet the definition of a
"surplus" or "displaced" employee.

 

*
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/publ
ic/> 


 
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/publ
ic/> The public


 
<https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/publ
ic/> U.S. Citizens, Nationals or those who owe allegiance to the U.S.

 


Clarification from the agency


This announcement is advertised under Direct Hire Authority and is open to
all United States Citizens or Nationals.

 

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/how-to/job-announcement/duties/> Help


Duties


*	Provide technical advice and guidance to employees and management on
the interpretation, intent, and impact of laws, regulations, policies, and
programs pertaining to the PWH Program.
*	Manage the full range of database entries and reporting.
*	Monitor time frames associated with the conduct of the investigation
to ensure that the report is issued within the policy and contract time
frames.
*	Assist in developing standard operating procedures; collects and
maintains data related to PWH complaints

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/how-to/job-announcement/requirements>  Help


Requirements


Conditions of Employment


*	You must be a U.S. Citizen or National to apply for this position.
*	You will be subject to a background and suitability investigation.
*	This is a remote position; however, the position reports to a CMS
Office on a periodic basis. Requirements to report to the office will vary
and can be discussed at the time of interview.


Qualifications


ALL QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET BY THE CLOSING DATE OF THIS
ANNOUNCEMENT.

Your resume must include detailed information as it relates to the
responsibilities and specialized experience for this position. Evidence of
copying and pasting directly from the vacancy announcement without clearly
documenting supplemental information to describe your experience will result
in an ineligible rating. This will prevent you from receiving further
consideration.

In order to qualify for the GS-09, you must meet the following: You must
demonstrate in your resume at least one year (52 weeks) of qualifying
specialized experience equivalent to the GS-07 grade level in the Federal
government, obtained in either the private or public sector, to include: 1)
Assisting in maintaining and updating all data on complaints in applicable
tables, spreadsheets, and databases to ensure accurate and timely reporting,
regularly occurring reports, and ad-hoc reports; and (2) Gathering analysis
of research, laws, regulations, and policies to formulate legal arguments.
- OR -
Substitution of Education for Experience: You may substitute education for
specialized experience at the GS-09 level by possessing a Master's or
equivalent graduate degree or 2 full years of progressively higher level
graduate education leading to such a degree or LL.B. or J.D., if related to
the position being filled.
- OR -
Combination of Experience and Education: Only graduate education in excess
of the amount required for the GS-07 grade level may be used to qualify
applicants for positions at the grade GS-09. Therefore, only education in
excess of 1 full year of graduate level education may be used to combine
education and experience.

TRANSCRIPTS are required to verify satisfactory completion of the
educational requirement related to substitution of education for experience
and combination of experience and education. Please see "Required Documents"
section below for what documentation is required at the time of application.

In order to qualify for the GS-11, you must meet the following: You must
demonstrate in your resume at least one year (52 weeks) of qualifying
specialized experience equivalent to the GS-09 grade level in the Federal
government, obtained in either the private or public sector), to include:
(1) Reviewing case law, regulations, executive orders, policies, and
guidance that apply to Prevention of Workplace Harassment (PWH) program; (2)
Analyzing research, laws, regulations, and policies to formulate legal
arguments; AND (3) Preparing drafting noncomplex documents such as witness
letters and transmittal letters for investigatory reports or complaint
files.
- OR -
Substitution of Education for Experience: You may substitute education for
specialized experience at the GS-11 level by possessing 3 full years of
progressively higher level graduate education leading to such a degree or
Ph.D. or equivalent doctoral degree or LL.M., if related to the position
being filled.
- OR -
Combination of Experience and Education: Only graduate education in excess
of the amount required for the GS-09 grade level may be used to qualify
applicants for positions at the grade GS-11. Therefore, only education in
excess of a master's or equivalent graduate degree or 2 full years of
progressively higher level graduate education leading to such a degree, may
be used to combine education and experience.

TRANSCRIPTS are required to verify satisfactory completion of the
educational requirement related to substitution of education for experience
and combination of experience and education. Please see "Required Documents"
section below for what documentation is required at the time of application.

In order to qualify for the GS-12, you must meet the following: You must
demonstrate in your resume at least one year (52 weeks) of qualifying
specialized experience equivalent to the GS-11 grade level in the Federal
government, obtained in either the private or public sector, to include:

1) Providing guidance related case laws, regulations, executive orders,
policies that apply to preventing workplace harassment complaints; (2)

Analyzing research, laws, regulations, and policies to formulate legal
arguments; AND (3) Preparing drafting complex documents for investigatory
reports or complaint files.

Substitution of Education for Experience: There is no substitution of
education to meet the specialized experience requirement at the GS-12 grade
level.

Combination of Experience and Education: There is no combination of
experience and education to meet the specialized experience requirement at
the GS-12 grade level.

Experience refers to paid and unpaid experience, including volunteer work
done through National Service programs (e.g., Peace Corps, AmeriCorps) and
other organizations (e.g., professional; philanthropic; religious;
spiritual; community, student, social). Volunteer work helps build critical
competencies, knowledge, and skills and can provide valuable training and
experience that translates directly to paid employment. You will receive
credit for all qualifying experience, including volunteer experience.

Click the following link to view the occupational questionnaire:
<https://apply.usastaffing.gov/ViewQuestionnaire/11889867>
https://apply.usastaffing.gov/ViewQuestionnaire/11889867


Additional information


Bargaining Unit Position: No
Tour of Duty: Flexible
Recruitment/Relocation Incentive: Not Authorized
Financial Disclosure: Not Required

To ensure compliance with an applicable preliminary nationwide injunction,
which may be supplemented, modified, or vacated, depending on the course of
ongoing litigation, the Federal Government will take no action to implement
or enforce Executive Order 14043 Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019
Vaccination for Federal Employees. Therefore, to the extent a federal job
announcement includes the requirement to be fully vaccinated against
COVID-19 pursuant to Executive Order 14043, that requirement does not
currently apply. Positions with vaccination requirements under
authority(ies) separate and distinct from Executive Order 14043 will be
clearly identified. HHS may continue to require documentation of proof of
vaccination to ensure compliance with those policies. Health and safety
protocols remain in effect, in accordance with CDC guidance and the Safer
Federal Workforce Task force. Consistent with current guidance, workplace
safety protocols will no longer vary based on vaccination status or
otherwise depend on the availability of vaccination information. Therefore,
to the extent a job announcement states that HHS may request information
regarding the vaccination status of selected applicants for the purposes of
implementing workplace safety protocols, this statement does not currently
apply.

Remote-In Positions at CMS: This is a remote position; however, the position
reports to a CMS Office on a periodic basis (e.g. 8-12 times per year).
Requirements to report to the office will vary and can be discussed at the
time of interview. As such, your pay will be based on your home address. For
more information on locality and pay scales, please
<https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/> click
here. Your worksite must be within the United States and you must adhere to
all regulations and policies regarding remote work at CMS and in the federal
government, including the signing of a remote work agreement.

The Interagency Career Transition Assistance Plan (ICTAP) and Career
Transition Assistance Plan (CTAP) provide eligible displaced federal
employees with selection priority over other candidates for competitive
service vacancies. To be qualified you must submit the required
documentation and be rated well-qualified for this vacancy.
<http://www.cms.gov/About-CMS/Career-Information/CareersatCMS/Downloads/Requ
iredDocuments-.pdf> Click here for a detailed description of the required
supporting documents. A well-qualified applicant is one whose knowledge,
skills and abilities clearly exceed the minimum qualification requirements
of the position. Additional information about ICTAP and CTAP eligibility is
on OPM's Career Transition Resources website at
<http://www.opm.gov/rif/employee_guides/career_transition.asp>
www.opm.gov/rif/employee_guides/career_transition.asp.

 <https://www.usajobs.gov/job/713668100> Read more


How You Will Be Evaluated


You will be evaluated for this job based on how well you meet the
qualifications above.

Traditional rating and ranking of applications does not apply to this
vacancy. Applications will be evaluated against the basic qualifications.
Qualified candidates will be referred for consideration in accordance with
the
<https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/hiring-information/direct-hire-au
thority/#url=Overview> Office of Personnel Management direct hire
guidelines. Veterans' Preference does not apply to direct hire recruitment
procedures. Selections made under this vacancy announcement will be
processed as new appointments to the civil service. Current civil service
employees would, therefore, be given new appointments to the civil service;
however, benefits, time served and all other Federal entitlements would
remain the same.

 

Ronza Othman, President

National Federation of the Blind of Maryland

443-426-4110

Pronouns: she, her, hers

 

The National Federation of the Blind of Maryland knows that blindness is not
the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the
expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles
between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want;
blindness is not what holds you back

 


From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 11:21:51 2023
From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:51:51 +0530
Subject: [blindLaw] Mapping anticipated questions beforehand: a good way to
 counter feelings of inadequacy as a blind attorney
Message-ID: <CADFycPZ7MuWVLRazv+TcQCU1USoscdGKY652CNB9tS2_8yhP9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

As a blind attorney, one of my most dreaded moments is when I am in front
of a judge or briefing a senior lawyer for an argument and she asks, "show
me where in the pleadings/evidence what you are saying can be found." As my
sighted colleagues race to find the requisite data point, I find myself
conflicted between two thoughts. First, knowing that I may be slower in
locating the information sought and hence why even bother trying to race
against my sighted colleagues? second, this is the name of the game, and I
cannot afford to lag behind.

I was discussing this with one of my mentors, who teaches IP law at Oxford
recently. He told me that the trick in a lot of these situations is mapping
in advance what points might come up and being prepared for them. Even if
you cannot locate the requisite information as fast as others, your
substantive knowledge and preparation will hold you in good stead.

I have been trying to do that more. Yesterday, we had a meeting for a
particular client in my firm. The aim was to go over all matters of that
client which we are handling, to figure out what next steps we need to take
in each, e.g. filing some documents, writing to the client for some pending
information  and the like. I asked 2 colleagues beforehand what would be
expected of me in the meeting. And went through the files in the 5-6
matters of that client that I am staffed on. I made good notes and sent
them to my senior before the meeting. In the meeting, my sighted colleagues
could on the fly locate what the next hearing date is, what the
previous order in a given case stated and so on. I know I cannot do this as
fast as them and would not be able to do it on the fly. but because I was
prepared, I did not feel inadequate and found myself up to the task.

Rahul

-- 
--
Rahul Bajaj
Attorney, Ira Law
Senior Associate Fellow, Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy
Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018), University of Oxford
Co-Founder, Mission Accessibility
Special Correspondent on the rights of persons with disabilities, Oxford
Human Rights Hub
Coordinator of the working group on accessibility, e-Committee, Supreme
Court of India

From sbadillo100 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 13:59:21 2023
From: sbadillo100 at gmail.com (Sarah Badillo)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:59:21 -0400
Subject: [blindLaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1679572803.12446.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.101.1679572803.12446.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <ED6CBF35-C693-4DED-9C7C-1BAFF42B989C@gmail.com>

Personally, I would create a special document for me that discusses the major talking points on each page of the pleading or other legal document. If there are too many pages to do this quickly, I would simply create a table of contents so that I could get the person close enough to the section they need. On the other hand, we have blind attorneys can be as prepared as we wish, and we will still not be as fast as those who are cited in finding what we need. In that case, I’m sorry to say it, but they’re just gonna have to wait a minute. we as blind attorneys are not inadequate or unfit for a specific job just because it takes a little bit longer to do something. As long as we can meet the deadlines, I think we’re fine. Although this world is run by sighted people, and we have to keep up, these days as sensitivity to other things is demanded, so should we demand sensitivity toward disability and visual impairment. 
If worse comes to worst, and I had the computer or braille display with me, I will give them the page number, and some specific keywords that they can search for to find what they need. Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2023, at 8:09 AM, blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
> 
> Send BlindLaw mailing list submissions to
>    blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    blindlaw-owner at nfbnet.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of BlindLaw digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Mapping anticipated questions beforehand: a good way to
>      counter feelings of inadequacy as a blind attorney (Rahul Bajaj)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:51:51 +0530
> From: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Mapping anticipated questions beforehand: a good
>    way to counter feelings of inadequacy as a blind attorney
> Message-ID:
>    <CADFycPZ7MuWVLRazv+TcQCU1USoscdGKY652CNB9tS2_8yhP9Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> As a blind attorney, one of my most dreaded moments is when I am in front
> of a judge or briefing a senior lawyer for an argument and she asks, "show
> me where in the pleadings/evidence what you are saying can be found." As my
> sighted colleagues race to find the requisite data point, I find myself
> conflicted between two thoughts. First, knowing that I may be slower in
> locating the information sought and hence why even bother trying to race
> against my sighted colleagues? second, this is the name of the game, and I
> cannot afford to lag behind.
> 
> I was discussing this with one of my mentors, who teaches IP law at Oxford
> recently. He told me that the trick in a lot of these situations is mapping
> in advance what points might come up and being prepared for them. Even if
> you cannot locate the requisite information as fast as others, your
> substantive knowledge and preparation will hold you in good stead.
> 
> I have been trying to do that more. Yesterday, we had a meeting for a
> particular client in my firm. The aim was to go over all matters of that
> client which we are handling, to figure out what next steps we need to take
> in each, e.g. filing some documents, writing to the client for some pending
> information  and the like. I asked 2 colleagues beforehand what would be
> expected of me in the meeting. And went through the files in the 5-6
> matters of that client that I am staffed on. I made good notes and sent
> them to my senior before the meeting. In the meeting, my sighted colleagues
> could on the fly locate what the next hearing date is, what the
> previous order in a given case stated and so on. I know I cannot do this as
> fast as them and would not be able to do it on the fly. but because I was
> prepared, I did not feel inadequate and found myself up to the task.
> 
> Rahul
> 
> -- 
> --
> Rahul Bajaj
> Attorney, Ira Law
> Senior Associate Fellow, Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy
> Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018), University of Oxford
> Co-Founder, Mission Accessibility
> Special Correspondent on the rights of persons with disabilities, Oxford
> Human Rights Hub
> Coordinator of the working group on accessibility, e-Committee, Supreme
> Court of India
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 13
> *****************************************


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Mar 23 17:34:48 2023
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 17:34:48 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Special education clash: Supreme Court sides unanimously
 for student with disability - USA TODAY - March 21, 2023
In-Reply-To: <SA9PR09MB545451AF8F0A3B7EA849DE74F9869@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SA0PR09MB7001C1A31F840D22BD7D076F95869@SA0PR09MB7001.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
 <SA9PR09MB545451AF8F0A3B7EA849DE74F9869@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SA9PR09MB54543D1582708A891AF846A4F9879@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>


https://www.press-citizen.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/21/supreme-court-schools-student-special-education-clash-perez/11513696002/

Special education clash: Supreme Court sides unanimously for student with disability
By John Fritze
USA TODAY
March 21, 2023

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court sided unanimously Tuesday with a student who is deaf and who sought to sue his school for damages over profound lapses in his education, a case that experts say could give parents of students with disabilities more leverage as they negotiate for the education of their children.
Central to the case was the story of Miguel Perez, who enrolled in the Sturgis Public School District in Michigan at age 9 and brought home As and Bs on report cards for more than a decade. Months before graduation, Perez's parents learned that he would not receive a diploma and that aides the school assigned to him did not know sign language.
Though the legal question raised by the case is technical, its outcome "holds consequences not just for Mr. Perez but for a great many children with disabilities and their parents," Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the unanimous court.
What to know about the Supreme Court's special education decision
The case, Perez v. Sturgis Public Schools, involved the interplay between two federal laws, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or IDEA, and the Americans with Disabilities Act. At issue was whether students may sue a school for damages under the ADA when they haven't exhausted the administrative process required by the IDEA.
In the unanimous decision Tuesday, the high court ruled that Perez didn't need to exhaust the requirements of the IDEA process before filing a lawsuit for damages under the ADA.
The decision may help parents and schools clarify one piece of a byzantine puzzle of laws that govern the nation's 7.2 million special education students. Experts have predicted it may give parents more leverage in their negotiation with schools.
What happened with Miguel Perez?
Perez's journey through the 3,000-student school district in Sturgis highlights the challenges faced by many students who have disabilities.
His family says school officials misrepresented the qualifications of his aide. They say that aide, in later years, was assigned to other duties, leaving Perez unable to communicate with anyone for hours every day. And Perez was promoted through each grade level despite not having a grasp of the curriculum, his attorneys say.
Perez filed a complaint with Michigan officials in 2017 accusing his school of violating state and federal laws, including the IDEA. Before that complaint was resolved, the district offered to settle, agreeing to pay for Perez to attend the Michigan School for the Deaf.
Perez's family took the settlement.
His family then sued the district under the Americans with Disability Act for discrimination, seeking unspecified monetary damages. A federal district court dismissed the lawsuit, ruling that Perez had not exhausted the required IDEA process because he accepted the settlement. A divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit agreed. Perez appealed to the Supreme Court in late 2021.
What do school districts say about the impact of the Perez case?
Art Ebert, the district's superintendent, declined to address the claims raised in the suit - he wasn't leading the district when Perez attended Sturgis - but he said in an email this month that because of the experience, the district would "gain knowledge, insight, and understanding that will help us maximize every student's true potential."
Schools say they are concerned that allowing parents to sue for damages more easily will inject a legal battle over money into the IDEA process, which is intended to quickly address students' needs. School districts might be forced to approach that process differently if their actions could be used against them in a suit for damages.
What are they saying?
Roman Martinez, a veteran Supreme Court lawyer who argued the case on behalf of Perez, said the court's ruling "vindicates the rights of students with disabilities to obtain full relief when they suffer discrimination." Perez and his family, he said, "look forward to pursuing their legal claims under the Americans with Disabilities Act."
Attorneys for the school district did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Sasha Pudelski, advocacy director of the School Superintendents Association, said the group has "deep concerns with injecting a legal battle over money into the IDEA process and how this ruling may undermine parents' willingness to collaborate with districts in crafting an appropriate special education program for a child. The only thing that's clear from this decision is that it will lead to more itigation for school districts."
Contributing: Alia Wong


From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Mar 24 15:26:49 2023
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:26:49 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] 1. Re: BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226,
 Issue 13 (Sarah Badillo)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.87.1679659202.2741.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.87.1679659202.2741.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <MW4PR09MB9058F81D4152FB495CD9A9349C849@MW4PR09MB9058.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Totally agree with Sarah on this.  I have created numerous forms that I use for my fies and for court - juvenile court is incredibly fast paced, so I want to have everything set up with headings I can navigate quickly.  Truthfully, I often have the answer faster than the sighted prosecutors and probation officers.

Susan C L Kelly
Assistant Public Defender
Pima County Public Defender’s Office - Juvenile Division
Ofc: 520-724-2994
Fax: 520-770-4168
Text: 520-262-6137
ADA Assistant:
Norma Garcia
520-724-4778
Norma.Garcia at pima.gov
Secretary:
Andrea Espinoza
520-724-2995
Andrea.Espinoza at pima.gov

________________________________
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org <blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 5:00:02 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 14

CAUTION: This message and sender come from outside Pima County. If you did not expect this message, proceed with caution. Verify the sender's identity before performing any action, such as clicking on a link or opening an attachment.




Send BlindLaw mailing list submissions to
        blindlaw at nfbnet.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
        blindlaw-owner at nfbnet.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of BlindLaw digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 13 (Sarah Badillo)
   2. Special education clash: Supreme Court sides unanimously for
      student with disability - USA TODAY - March 21, 2023
      (Nightingale, Noel)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:59:21 -0400
From: Sarah Badillo <sbadillo100 at gmail.com>
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 13
Message-ID: <ED6CBF35-C693-4DED-9C7C-1BAFF42B989C at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Personally, I would create a special document for me that discusses the major talking points on each page of the pleading or other legal document. If there are too many pages to do this quickly, I would simply create a table of contents so that I could get the person close enough to the section they need. On the other hand, we have blind attorneys can be as prepared as we wish, and we will still not be as fast as those who are cited in finding what we need. In that case, I?m sorry to say it, but they?re just gonna have to wait a minute. we as blind attorneys are not inadequate or unfit for a specific job just because it takes a little bit longer to do something. As long as we can meet the deadlines, I think we?re fine. Although this world is run by sighted people, and we have to keep up, these days as sensitivity to other things is demanded, so should we demand sensitivity toward disability and visual impairment.
If worse comes to worst, and I had the computer or braille display with me, I will give them the page number, and some specific keywords that they can search for to find what they need. Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2023, at 8:09 AM, blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
>
> ?Send BlindLaw mailing list submissions to
>    blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    blindlaw-owner at nfbnet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of BlindLaw digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Mapping anticipated questions beforehand: a good way to
>      counter feelings of inadequacy as a blind attorney (Rahul Bajaj)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:51:51 +0530
> From: Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindLaw] Mapping anticipated questions beforehand: a good
>    way to counter feelings of inadequacy as a blind attorney
> Message-ID:
>    <CADFycPZ7MuWVLRazv+TcQCU1USoscdGKY652CNB9tS2_8yhP9Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi All,
>
> As a blind attorney, one of my most dreaded moments is when I am in front
> of a judge or briefing a senior lawyer for an argument and she asks, "show
> me where in the pleadings/evidence what you are saying can be found." As my
> sighted colleagues race to find the requisite data point, I find myself
> conflicted between two thoughts. First, knowing that I may be slower in
> locating the information sought and hence why even bother trying to race
> against my sighted colleagues? second, this is the name of the game, and I
> cannot afford to lag behind.
>
> I was discussing this with one of my mentors, who teaches IP law at Oxford
> recently. He told me that the trick in a lot of these situations is mapping
> in advance what points might come up and being prepared for them. Even if
> you cannot locate the requisite information as fast as others, your
> substantive knowledge and preparation will hold you in good stead.
>
> I have been trying to do that more. Yesterday, we had a meeting for a
> particular client in my firm. The aim was to go over all matters of that
> client which we are handling, to figure out what next steps we need to take
> in each, e.g. filing some documents, writing to the client for some pending
> information  and the like. I asked 2 colleagues beforehand what would be
> expected of me in the meeting. And went through the files in the 5-6
> matters of that client that I am staffed on. I made good notes and sent
> them to my senior before the meeting. In the meeting, my sighted colleagues
> could on the fly locate what the next hearing date is, what the
> previous order in a given case stated and so on. I know I cannot do this as
> fast as them and would not be able to do it on the fly. but because I was
> prepared, I did not feel inadequate and found myself up to the task.
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> --
> Rahul Bajaj
> Attorney, Ira Law
> Senior Associate Fellow, Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy
> Rhodes Scholar (India and Linacre 2018), University of Oxford
> Co-Founder, Mission Accessibility
> Special Correspondent on the rights of persons with disabilities, Oxford
> Human Rights Hub
> Coordinator of the working group on accessibility, e-Committee, Supreme
> Court of India
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 13
> *****************************************



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 17:34:48 +0000
From: "Nightingale, Noel" <Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov>
To: "blindlaw at nfbnet.org" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindLaw] Special education clash: Supreme Court sides
        unanimously for student with disability - USA TODAY - March 21, 2023
Message-ID:
        <SA9PR09MB54543D1582708A891AF846A4F9879 at SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


https://www.press-citizen.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/21/supreme-court-schools-student-special-education-clash-perez/11513696002/

Special education clash: Supreme Court sides unanimously for student with disability
By John Fritze
USA TODAY
March 21, 2023

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court sided unanimously Tuesday with a student who is deaf and who sought to sue his school for damages over profound lapses in his education, a case that experts say could give parents of students with disabilities more leverage as they negotiate for the education of their children.
Central to the case was the story of Miguel Perez, who enrolled in the Sturgis Public School District in Michigan at age 9 and brought home As and Bs on report cards for more than a decade. Months before graduation, Perez's parents learned that he would not receive a diploma and that aides the school assigned to him did not know sign language.
Though the legal question raised by the case is technical, its outcome "holds consequences not just for Mr. Perez but for a great many children with disabilities and their parents," Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the unanimous court.
What to know about the Supreme Court's special education decision
The case, Perez v. Sturgis Public Schools, involved the interplay between two federal laws, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or IDEA, and the Americans with Disabilities Act. At issue was whether students may sue a school for damages under the ADA when they haven't exhausted the administrative process required by the IDEA.
In the unanimous decision Tuesday, the high court ruled that Perez didn't need to exhaust the requirements of the IDEA process before filing a lawsuit for damages under the ADA.
The decision may help parents and schools clarify one piece of a byzantine puzzle of laws that govern the nation's 7.2 million special education students. Experts have predicted it may give parents more leverage in their negotiation with schools.
What happened with Miguel Perez?
Perez's journey through the 3,000-student school district in Sturgis highlights the challenges faced by many students who have disabilities.
His family says school officials misrepresented the qualifications of his aide. They say that aide, in later years, was assigned to other duties, leaving Perez unable to communicate with anyone for hours every day. And Perez was promoted through each grade level despite not having a grasp of the curriculum, his attorneys say.
Perez filed a complaint with Michigan officials in 2017 accusing his school of violating state and federal laws, including the IDEA. Before that complaint was resolved, the district offered to settle, agreeing to pay for Perez to attend the Michigan School for the Deaf.
Perez's family took the settlement.
His family then sued the district under the Americans with Disability Act for discrimination, seeking unspecified monetary damages. A federal district court dismissed the lawsuit, ruling that Perez had not exhausted the required IDEA process because he accepted the settlement. A divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit agreed. Perez appealed to the Supreme Court in late 2021.
What do school districts say about the impact of the Perez case?
Art Ebert, the district's superintendent, declined to address the claims raised in the suit - he wasn't leading the district when Perez attended Sturgis - but he said in an email this month that because of the experience, the district would "gain knowledge, insight, and understanding that will help us maximize every student's true potential."
Schools say they are concerned that allowing parents to sue for damages more easily will inject a legal battle over money into the IDEA process, which is intended to quickly address students' needs. School districts might be forced to approach that process differently if their actions could be used against them in a suit for damages.
What are they saying?
Roman Martinez, a veteran Supreme Court lawyer who argued the case on behalf of Perez, said the court's ruling "vindicates the rights of students with disabilities to obtain full relief when they suffer discrimination." Perez and his family, he said, "look forward to pursuing their legal claims under the Americans with Disabilities Act."
Attorneys for the school district did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Sasha Pudelski, advocacy director of the School Superintendents Association, said the group has "deep concerns with injecting a legal battle over money into the IDEA process and how this ruling may undermine parents' willingness to collaborate with districts in crafting an appropriate special education program for a child. The only thing that's clear from this decision is that it will lead to more itigation for school districts."
Contributing: Alia Wong



------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org


------------------------------

End of BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 14
*****************************************

From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Fri Mar 24 19:19:52 2023
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 19:19:52 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Supreme Court Unanimously Sides With Student In Special
 Ed Case - Disability Scoop - March 22, 2023
In-Reply-To: <SA0PR09MB70013A71410E4D1094B11C8C95849@SA0PR09MB7001.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SA0PR09MB70013A71410E4D1094B11C8C95849@SA0PR09MB7001.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SA9PR09MB5454A116863DC18C73951678F9849@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>


https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2023/03/22/supreme-court-unanimously-sides-with-student-in-special-ed-case/30302/
Supreme Court Unanimously Sides With Student In Special Ed Case
By Michelle Diament
Disability Scoop
March 22, 2023

The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled in favor of a student with a disability in a case<https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2023/01/17/supreme-court-case-could-change-how-special-ed-disputes-are-handled/30195/> with significant implications for families and schools entangled in special education disputes.
In an opinion issued Tuesday, the high court sided with Miguel Luna Perez, a deaf student who sued the Sturgis Public Schools in Michigan for failing to provide him a qualified sign language interpreter for 12 years.
Perez's family was led to believe that he was on track to receive a high school diploma, but found out just months before graduation that he would be getting a certificate of completion instead.
The family reached a settlement with the school district to resolve claims under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, but subsequently sued under the Americans with Disabilities Act seeking monetary damages. A lower court ruled against Perez in the ADA case indicating that because the family accepted the IDEA settlement, they did not fully exhaust all options under IDEA.
With the ruling this week, however, the Supreme Court reversed that decision. The justices unanimously determined that since compensatory damages are not available under IDEA, Perez is entitled to pursue such a claim under the ADA.
IDEA's "administrative exhaustion requirement applies only to suits that 'see(k) relief ... also available under' IDEA," wrote Justice Neil Gorsuch in an eight-page opinion for the court. "And that condition simply is not met in situations like ours, where a plaintiff brings a suit under another federal law for compensatory damages - a form of relief everyone agrees IDEA does not provide."
Gorsuch noted in the ruling that since lower courts have differed on this issue, the decision "holds consequences not just for Mr. Perez but for a great many children with disabilities and their parents."
Lawyers for Perez had warned that a ruling in favor of the school district would tie the hands of students with disabilities and their families by essentially requiring them to turn down even the best IDEA settlements in order to maintain their ability to seek claims under other laws.
"Miguel Perez is just one of millions of students with disabilities who face a multitude of barriers in getting the supports and services they need to thrive in school and to build the future they desire," said Shira Wakschlag, senior director of legal advocacy and general counsel at The Arc, one of several disability groups that filed amicus briefs supporting Perez. "Consistent with the language of the ADA and IDEA, today's unanimous decision in Perez v. Sturgis Public Schools removes unnecessary burdens from families seeking relief and helps ensure that students with disabilities and their parents are able to pursue every avenue of justice available to them when their civil rights are violated."



From sai at fiatfiendum.org  Sat Mar 25 01:34:56 2023
From: sai at fiatfiendum.org (Sai)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 01:34:56 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Bespoke suit design features for blindies or court
Message-ID: <CAHs-R5zCQQcg=GB+A+HDctAN=1035cQYDJROmDLkru036sLfYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.

I'm getting married soon, and having a bespoke three piece suit made for
me. I'd also like to wear it in court and other formal settings. In large
part the design is driven by gender presentation (I'm non-binary)… but
since I can get the tailors to design and sew more or less whatever I want
that's in the general ballpark of a suit, I'm also thinking about practical
or pleasure features, some of which are blindness related.

Do any of you have suggestions as to what features might be nice to have
(or avoid) in a jacket, waistcoat, or trousers/skirt?

Could be blindness related, practical, style, whatever. (I don't care if
it's "feminine" or "masculine" or neither.)


For context: for me, functionality or personal enjoyment almost always
trumps traditional normativity (e.g. I wear toeshoes because they give me
much better ground feel), but I'd still like this suit to come off as
formal overall, albeit rather unusual.

For example, two blindie things I almost always have on me are a Bluetooth
wireless earbuds string (for using screen reader on phone) and a pen "mini
cane" (a metal telescoping pointer/pen, pen size when collapsed and about
three feet long when extended, made for sighted people to point at things
in PowerPoint presentations — works well for conference rooms, restaurants,
familiar homes, etc. when my long cane is a bit cumbersome and I don't need
to clear obstacles below knee level).

My usual jacket is a Scott-E-Vest, which has tons of pockets. Relevant
here, it has pen pockets on the inside placket near the front zipper, and a
channel plus little bungie loops at the back collar for stowing and
securing earbuds nicely. I think I'll ask the tailors to add these to my
jacket.

The tailors suggested a sort of combination asymmetric skirt/hakama based
on Yohji Yamamoto's designs which I kinda like. Since I cane on my right,
and when I'm walking quickly I sometimes lever my cane against my extended
leg, I figure the skirt part should be on the right, so that it covers the
pleats underneath that might otherwise catch on the cane.

Fabric was an example of a tactile pleasure driven choice (and my level of
tactile sensitivity is probably a blindie thing) — bamboo fabric had a feel
to it almost like the sensation of soft fluffy cat fur. Of all the fabrics
the tailors (and their cloth merchant suppliers) had, it was way more
pleasant than the next best (a very fine wool — lovely stuff, but just not
the same "this is like dark chocolate for my fingertips" level reflex
reaction).

Another example of design motivated by blind life is that the jacket will
have "surgeon's cuffs", i.e. actually used cuff buttons, so that when
closed, the gap between wrist and cloth is smaller than the width of my
slimline cane handle. With looser jackets, when I run into something (like
on everyone's favourite, cobblestones), my cane handle would often catch
inside my sleeve and hurt my arm or just make it more of a sudden shock;
with cinched wrists, that's never been a problem.


I figured y'all might have some other ideas — things you've noticed that
you particularly liked or disliked, things you've gotten positive or
negative comments about from others, etc. I'd appreciate any suggestions
you may have.

Sincerely,
Sai
President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3)

Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision, typos, and
autocorrect errors.

From sanho817 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 25 01:53:50 2023
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 20:53:50 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Bespoke suit design features for blindies or court
In-Reply-To: <CAHs-R5zCQQcg=GB+A+HDctAN=1035cQYDJROmDLkru036sLfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHs-R5zCQQcg=GB+A+HDctAN=1035cQYDJROmDLkru036sLfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL6jpeyB+otmTtNabKU3GwVzk5k66DFNgQv9v_ERxAzMMjWqcg@mail.gmail.com>

Sai,

Congratulations on the marriage.

As for the suit, I'm not sure if you're thinking about representing
yourself or representing others. Please be careful if intending to
represent others while dressed extravagantly. The reality is that
making a negative impression on a judge or jury would negatively
impact your client. I also wouldn't be remotely surprised if judges
would have you leave the courtroom until you were dressed quote
unquote "appropriately."

I'd suggest you might have a trusted sighted person tell you if the
lines of your suit are broken when you put things on interior pockets.
Perhaps broken lines can be mitigated by being bespoke. If not, I'd
wonder what the point is of it being bespoke in the first place.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/24/23, Sai via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm getting married soon, and having a bespoke three piece suit made for
> me. I'd also like to wear it in court and other formal settings. In large
> part the design is driven by gender presentation (I'm non-binary)… but
> since I can get the tailors to design and sew more or less whatever I want
> that's in the general ballpark of a suit, I'm also thinking about practical
> or pleasure features, some of which are blindness related.
>
> Do any of you have suggestions as to what features might be nice to have
> (or avoid) in a jacket, waistcoat, or trousers/skirt?
>
> Could be blindness related, practical, style, whatever. (I don't care if
> it's "feminine" or "masculine" or neither.)
>
>
> For context: for me, functionality or personal enjoyment almost always
> trumps traditional normativity (e.g. I wear toeshoes because they give me
> much better ground feel), but I'd still like this suit to come off as
> formal overall, albeit rather unusual.
>
> For example, two blindie things I almost always have on me are a Bluetooth
> wireless earbuds string (for using screen reader on phone) and a pen "mini
> cane" (a metal telescoping pointer/pen, pen size when collapsed and about
> three feet long when extended, made for sighted people to point at things
> in PowerPoint presentations — works well for conference rooms, restaurants,
> familiar homes, etc. when my long cane is a bit cumbersome and I don't need
> to clear obstacles below knee level).
>
> My usual jacket is a Scott-E-Vest, which has tons of pockets. Relevant
> here, it has pen pockets on the inside placket near the front zipper, and a
> channel plus little bungie loops at the back collar for stowing and
> securing earbuds nicely. I think I'll ask the tailors to add these to my
> jacket.
>
> The tailors suggested a sort of combination asymmetric skirt/hakama based
> on Yohji Yamamoto's designs which I kinda like. Since I cane on my right,
> and when I'm walking quickly I sometimes lever my cane against my extended
> leg, I figure the skirt part should be on the right, so that it covers the
> pleats underneath that might otherwise catch on the cane.
>
> Fabric was an example of a tactile pleasure driven choice (and my level of
> tactile sensitivity is probably a blindie thing) — bamboo fabric had a feel
> to it almost like the sensation of soft fluffy cat fur. Of all the fabrics
> the tailors (and their cloth merchant suppliers) had, it was way more
> pleasant than the next best (a very fine wool — lovely stuff, but just not
> the same "this is like dark chocolate for my fingertips" level reflex
> reaction).
>
> Another example of design motivated by blind life is that the jacket will
> have "surgeon's cuffs", i.e. actually used cuff buttons, so that when
> closed, the gap between wrist and cloth is smaller than the width of my
> slimline cane handle. With looser jackets, when I run into something (like
> on everyone's favourite, cobblestones), my cane handle would often catch
> inside my sleeve and hurt my arm or just make it more of a sudden shock;
> with cinched wrists, that's never been a problem.
>
>
> I figured y'all might have some other ideas — things you've noticed that
> you particularly liked or disliked, things you've gotten positive or
> negative comments about from others, etc. I'd appreciate any suggestions
> you may have.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sai
> President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3)
>
> Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision, typos, and
> autocorrect errors.
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com
>


-- 
He/Him


From rodalcidonis at gmail.com  Sat Mar 25 02:38:22 2023
From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (rodalcidonis at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 22:38:22 -0400
Subject: [blindLaw] Bespoke suit design features for blindies or court
In-Reply-To: <CAL6jpeyB+otmTtNabKU3GwVzk5k66DFNgQv9v_ERxAzMMjWqcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHs-R5zCQQcg=GB+A+HDctAN=1035cQYDJROmDLkru036sLfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL6jpeyB+otmTtNabKU3GwVzk5k66DFNgQv9v_ERxAzMMjWqcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01d95ec2$de7bec30$9b73c490$@gmail.com>

Congratulation. Sanho has a point here. I would be extra vigilant to be sure that this "unusual" look, though satisfying to you,  does not serve as a distraction in a setting where you would actually prefer the focus to be on something other than the suit, such as in the courtroom. I also recommend that you get a few sighted friends to give you their opinion before going too far with it.







-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 9:54 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Bespoke suit design features for blindies or court

Sai,

Congratulations on the marriage.

As for the suit, I'm not sure if you're thinking about representing yourself or representing others. Please be careful if intending to represent others while dressed extravagantly. The reality is that making a negative impression on a judge or jury would negatively impact your client. I also wouldn't be remotely surprised if judges would have you leave the courtroom until you were dressed quote unquote "appropriately."

I'd suggest you might have a trusted sighted person tell you if the lines of your suit are broken when you put things on interior pockets.
Perhaps broken lines can be mitigated by being bespoke. If not, I'd wonder what the point is of it being bespoke in the first place.

Warmth,
Sanho

On 3/24/23, Sai via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm getting married soon, and having a bespoke three piece suit made 
> for me. I'd also like to wear it in court and other formal settings. 
> In large part the design is driven by gender presentation (I'm 
> non-binary)… but since I can get the tailors to design and sew more or 
> less whatever I want that's in the general ballpark of a suit, I'm 
> also thinking about practical or pleasure features, some of which are blindness related.
>
> Do any of you have suggestions as to what features might be nice to 
> have (or avoid) in a jacket, waistcoat, or trousers/skirt?
>
> Could be blindness related, practical, style, whatever. (I don't care 
> if it's "feminine" or "masculine" or neither.)
>
>
> For context: for me, functionality or personal enjoyment almost always 
> trumps traditional normativity (e.g. I wear toeshoes because they give 
> me much better ground feel), but I'd still like this suit to come off 
> as formal overall, albeit rather unusual.
>
> For example, two blindie things I almost always have on me are a 
> Bluetooth wireless earbuds string (for using screen reader on phone) 
> and a pen "mini cane" (a metal telescoping pointer/pen, pen size when 
> collapsed and about three feet long when extended, made for sighted 
> people to point at things in PowerPoint presentations — works well for 
> conference rooms, restaurants, familiar homes, etc. when my long cane 
> is a bit cumbersome and I don't need to clear obstacles below knee level).
>
> My usual jacket is a Scott-E-Vest, which has tons of pockets. Relevant 
> here, it has pen pockets on the inside placket near the front zipper, 
> and a channel plus little bungie loops at the back collar for stowing 
> and securing earbuds nicely. I think I'll ask the tailors to add these 
> to my jacket.
>
> The tailors suggested a sort of combination asymmetric skirt/hakama 
> based on Yohji Yamamoto's designs which I kinda like. Since I cane on 
> my right, and when I'm walking quickly I sometimes lever my cane 
> against my extended leg, I figure the skirt part should be on the 
> right, so that it covers the pleats underneath that might otherwise catch on the cane.
>
> Fabric was an example of a tactile pleasure driven choice (and my 
> level of tactile sensitivity is probably a blindie thing) — bamboo 
> fabric had a feel to it almost like the sensation of soft fluffy cat 
> fur. Of all the fabrics the tailors (and their cloth merchant 
> suppliers) had, it was way more pleasant than the next best (a very 
> fine wool — lovely stuff, but just not the same "this is like dark 
> chocolate for my fingertips" level reflex reaction).
>
> Another example of design motivated by blind life is that the jacket 
> will have "surgeon's cuffs", i.e. actually used cuff buttons, so that 
> when closed, the gap between wrist and cloth is smaller than the width 
> of my slimline cane handle. With looser jackets, when I run into 
> something (like on everyone's favourite, cobblestones), my cane handle 
> would often catch inside my sleeve and hurt my arm or just make it 
> more of a sudden shock; with cinched wrists, that's never been a problem.
>
>
> I figured y'all might have some other ideas — things you've noticed 
> that you particularly liked or disliked, things you've gotten positive 
> or negative comments about from others, etc. I'd appreciate any 
> suggestions you may have.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sai
> President, Fiat Fiendum, Inc., a 501(c)(3)
>
> Sent from my mobile phone; please excuse the concision, typos, and 
> autocorrect errors.
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com
>


--
He/Him

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Mar 27 13:58:53 2023
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:58:53 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Attorney - Social Security Administration, OGC,
 Office of the Program LItigation
In-Reply-To: <de00ecf2-9236-46ed-bbd6-b70d64a574ffn@googlegroups.com>
References: <de00ecf2-9236-46ed-bbd6-b70d64a574ffn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <SA9PR09MB5454355C84408066D82ECED6F98B9@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>



From: washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com <washingtonattorneyswithdisabilitiesassociation at googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Roxanne Andrews
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 6:26 PM
Subject: [WADA] Attorney - Social Security Administration, OGC, Office of the Program LItigation

he Social Security Administration’s Office of the General Counsel seeks talented & enthusiastic attorneys throughout the U.S. for its Office of Program Litigation.

Social Security touches the lives of millions, providing vital services and a social safety net through disability, retirement, and survivor benefits. Our Office of the General Counsel (OGC) is a modern public service law office with a highly-skilled, engaged, and diverse workforce. We strategically manage a large national workload through effective collaboration & coordination. We offer the opportunity to handle meaningful and challenging legal work, while earning a competitive salary (plus locality pay), a flexible work schedule, and telework. Employees may be eligible to work remotely from home.
OGC’s Office of Program Litigation (OPLit) promotes, advocates for, and protects SSA’s legal interests in federal court litigation involving Social Security benefit programs. OPLit attorneys partner with the Department of Justice and often serve as Special Assistant U.S. Attorneys. OPLit attorneys represent SSA in federal district and circuit court appeals that challenge SSA policies and benefit determinations. This is appellate-style litigation requiring strong writing aptitude and an understanding of administrative law.
Attorneys joining OPLit will have significant responsibility for their own caseloads, but also will receive strategic mentoring, training, and support. OGC offers a collegial environment in which both newer and experienced attorneys collaborate to share their expertise.

HOW TO APPLY: Submit your application for OPLit to: OGC.OPLit.Recruitment at ssa.gov<mailto:OGC.OPLit.Recruitment at ssa.gov>. Your application must include cover letter, resume, law school transcript, proof of active bar membership, list of professional references, and legal writing sample (max. 15 pages). Veterans: please indicate veteran’s preference in your cover letter and submit a copy of your DD-214 or SF-15. SALARY INFORMATION: Base Salary: $69,107 - $128,043 (depending on grade and step) plus locality pay based on geographic area. Please refer to General Schedule (https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2023/general-schedule) for more information.
The United States Government does not discriminate in employment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy & gender identity), national origin, political affiliation, sexual orientation, marital status, disability, genetic information, age, membership in an employee organization, retaliation, parental status, military service, or other non-merit factors.

REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION: This agency provides assistance to applicants with disabilities where appropriate. If you need assistance completing the application, please email the agency at OGC.Recruitment at ssa.gov<mailto:OGC.Recruitment at ssa.gov>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Washington Attorneys with Disabilities Association" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<mailto:WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation/de00ecf2-9236-46ed-bbd6-b70d64a574ffn%40googlegroups.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/WashingtonAttorneyswithDisabilitiesAssociation/de00ecf2-9236-46ed-bbd6-b70d64a574ffn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

From michael.t.collins.728 at outlook.com  Wed Mar 29 14:12:17 2023
From: michael.t.collins.728 at outlook.com (Michael Collins)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:12:17 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Gov. Lawyering while visually impaired
Message-ID: <BL0PR07MB52197BBC42AC820A36FAA735A4899@BL0PR07MB5219.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Hi all,

I recently accepted a civil litigator position with the federal government. I'm visually impaired but still have usable vision. Would anyone with experience litigating for the government be willing to talk about the accommodations they've used or found available? 

I never really explored accommodations while clerking and my work experience has been with non-profits and small firms that had more ad hoc accommodations policies—i.e., if I encounter a problem and think of a solution, I ask a partner if that solution is feasible with the firm's resources. I gather the government has more available resources (though not at the level of a big firm), but is more formulaic because they have plenty of disabled employees rather than just me. I want to know what I can reasonably expect in terms of technology/services. The position requires a lot of travel, so I'm particularly curious about what the government does when a lawyer simply cannot rent a car at the airport to travel to the final destination. 

If anyone who's traveled this road before would be willing to chat about the accommodations they used and the roadblocks they encountered, I would be very appreciative. 

Thank you,

- Michael
Sent from my mobile device

From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Thu Mar 30 20:53:10 2023
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 20:53:10 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226,
 Issue 17 / blind government lawyering
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1680177603.13391.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.59.1680177603.13391.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <MW4PR09MB9058D804FC9963467A44FB6D9C8E9@MW4PR09MB9058.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>

I am a public defender in Arizona - at least here in our county, there have been varying (weak) attempts at ADA compliance, but a lot I have figured out on my own, including relying on an iPad pro for the vast majority of my work (Voice Over, etc) varying apps (including one that OCRs for me, since the agency routinely forgets / screws it up), my own personal PDF forms for taking notes, etc.  I don;t represent the government per se, rather my clients, but much the same in what you can ask for, what you can realistically expect, and what you can do for yourself much more efficiently, if needed.

Susan C L Kelly
Assistant Public Defender
Pima County Public Defender’s Office - Juvenile Division
Ofc: 520-724-2994
Fax: 520-770-4168
Text: 520-262-6137
ADA Assistant:
Norma Garcia
520-724-4778
Norma.Garcia at pima.gov
Secretary:
Andrea Espinoza
520-724-2995
Andrea.Espinoza at pima.gov

________________________________
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org <blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 5:00:03 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 17

CAUTION: This message and sender come from outside Pima County. If you did not expect this message, proceed with caution. Verify the sender's identity before performing any action, such as clicking on a link or opening an attachment.




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Today's Topics:

   1. Gov. Lawyering while visually impaired (Michael Collins)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:12:17 +0000
From: Michael Collins <michael.t.collins.728 at outlook.com>
To: "blindlaw at nfbnet.org" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindLaw] Gov. Lawyering while visually impaired
Message-ID:
        <BL0PR07MB52197BBC42AC820A36FAA735A4899 at BL0PR07MB5219.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all,

I recently accepted a civil litigator position with the federal government. I'm visually impaired but still have usable vision. Would anyone with experience litigating for the government be willing to talk about the accommodations they've used or found available?

I never really explored accommodations while clerking and my work experience has been with non-profits and small firms that had more ad hoc accommodations policies?i.e., if I encounter a problem and think of a solution, I ask a partner if that solution is feasible with the firm's resources. I gather the government has more available resources (though not at the level of a big firm), but is more formulaic because they have plenty of disabled employees rather than just me. I want to know what I can reasonably expect in terms of technology/services. The position requires a lot of travel, so I'm particularly curious about what the government does when a lawyer simply cannot rent a car at the airport to travel to the final destination.

If anyone who's traveled this road before would be willing to chat about the accommodations they used and the roadblocks they encountered, I would be very appreciative.

Thank you,

- Michael
Sent from my mobile device

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End of BlindLaw Digest, Vol 226, Issue 17
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