[blindLaw] Inaccessibility of Legal Careers

Susan Kelly Susan.Kelly at pima.gov
Mon Nov 20 16:24:05 UTC 2023 

Sorry to be late on adding in to this discussion -

As someone who went from sorta correctible low vision to blindness after starting my career, I have to say that a huge part of the problem is incorrect assumptions about 1) our abilities, 2) the abilities and availability of technologies to easily assist, and 3)the TRUE language of the ADA.  When I first started losing what usable vision I had, the Human Resources ADA liaison for our countywas also a disabled person (CP), and wonderfully feisty and outspoken.  Sadly, she retired a couple of years later, and since that time, my agency (public defense) glories in proclaiming they  only have to do what their budget can handle - which is NOT true, since the overriding County budget is legally obligated t0 cover what is necessary.

All that aside - speak up for yourself.  It is very frustrating, and at times, I would rather crawl under my desk and hide - but the world needs more of us!

Susan C L Kelly
Assistant Public Defender
Pima County Public Defender's Office - Juvenile Division
Ofc: 520-724-2994
Fax: 520-770-4168
Text: 520-262-6137
ADA Assistant:
Norma Garcia
520-724-4778
Norma.Garcia at pima.gov
Secretary:
Elizabeth Bustamante-Lopez
520-724-6914
Elizabeth.bustamante-lopez at pima.gov

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Inaccessibility of Legal Careers (Teresita Rios)
   2. Re: Inaccessibility of Legal Careers (Julie A. Orozco)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 15:00:43 -0500
From: Teresita Rios <teresitarios22 at gmail.com>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Inaccessibility of Legal Careers
Message-ID: <337D87BC-386F-4B72-9CBE-CDB37BB553FF at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8

Dear Julie,

I am so sorry to hear of your struggles. I graduated last semester and my clinic work was very accessible. Our clinics used an internal case filing system named Cleo. it is accessible. Everything was scanned by the other students and the office assistant. We did have forms for my clients but they were arranged in a pile some sidewise and others straight. I used the TV in a meeting room to share my screen while I was navigating my copy of the forms on my computer while my client had those forms in front of them. FOr litigation, I had to spend much more time getting acquainted with the case file before I met with my partner and professor.
I have ABBYFineReader on my personal computer and when a scan was not accessible i ran it by ABBY. Several times other students in the clinic not just my partner, or the office assistant read documents to me. and I took notes before I had a meeting with my supervising attorney. I was lucky in that sense that our professor was receptive and heard and brainstormed small issues we faced in the office. Inaccessibility is mostly due to laziness to brainstorm. and you should let your professor know that at least in her semester?s report.

Best wishes,
Teresita



> On Nov 1, 2023, at 1:11 PM, Julie A. Orozco via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am really struggling and wonder if some of you can provide
> perspective. First, how much of your legal work, particularly for
> those of you with clients, is actually accessible to you as a blind
> person? I ask this because I would guess that the work in my legal
> clinic is 60 or 70 percent inaccessible, and there seems to be very
> little I can do about it by the end of the semester.
>
> I am currently taking a civil advocacy clinic through my law school.
> Each student works with a partner and interviews, files motions for,
> and represents clients in court hearings. Ever since I started law
> school, I've been blown away at the inaccessible nature of the legal
> profession, especially considering my last career literally required
> me to get Braille materials because music cannot be rendered in a Word
> document. But this clinic is another level of inaccessibility I never
> imagined.
>
> We had to do several mailings last week. The instructions were
> hand-written, and the entire process was inaccessible, so my partner
> had to do it while I stood there with nothing to do to help. We
> routinely have to work with scanned images that can't be converted
> into text easily (if at all) because they contain hand writing. I
> asked for a reader when I realized this would be a problem, but the
> reader they gave me works for our disability support office and is
> only available in the mornings when I am in class. He signed a
> confidentiality agreement, which was a requirement for my clinic, but
> he still shares what he's working on with his supervisor, who cannot
> be granted access to client information. I'm attempting to work out
> these issues, but while I try, the work continues.
>
> When my professor, partner, and I edit motions and other writings,
> it's a nightmare. First, I had to figure out Sharepoint, which lags
> and doesn't seem to work well with Jaws. Another blind attorney gave
> me some tips that really helped, but in the end, none of that mattered
> because when the three of us started editing together, I was
> completely lost. I was trying to listen to track changes, comments,
> footnotes, and the text of the motion with Jaws while my professor and
> partner were looking at printed pages and just marking off what they
> wanted to change. I couldn't keep up. My professor apologized, but she
> kept using the paper copies and changing things I couldn't see on my
> document.
>
> There are also lots of little things, like taking pictures, scanning
> documents and checking them when documenting information, and putting
> paper packets and visual aids together. Finally, when filing with the
> DC Superior court, their system was not completely keyboard
> accessible, so I couldn't even take the lead in filing our motion. I'm
> frankly very overwhelmed. Although I know I have a lot to learn and I
> accept that we live in a visual world, this level of inaccessibility
> is making me question getting into the legal field at all. I
> understand that sometimes I can do more to fight for accessibility,
> but what am I supposed to do when I have three other classes, am
> applying to take the Bar, and am also trying to apply for fellowships
> and jobs? I cannot take on all these battles, and for the first time,
> I don't even know which ones, if any, matter. My partner and professor
> are tolerant of all these issues, but it feels awful that I have to
> rely on my partner to do so much. My professor has also made it clear
> that I have to improve over the course of the semester and put more
> work into my clinic assignments.
>
> I've tried to brain storm solutions. I've tried talking with my
> partner about letting me figure out some of the inaccessible work.
> Sometimes she gets something done while I'm still trying to figure out
> how to make it accessible. Whenever I bring up these issues with my
> professor, she acts like I should just expect things to be
> inaccessible. "It's a visual world." And while that's true, she and
> the university still have a legal obligation to make things accessible
> when possible.
>
> I'm just not sure what to do, what to ask for, and how to proceed. I'm
> tired, so tired, and I'm graduating at the end of the semester, so
> part of me just wants to let all this go. But when I think about a
> future career being like this, I just lose all desire to practice law
> anymore.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts? Please be kind if you think I should
> just suck it up and keep fighting. I know this but would also love
> some support.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Julie
>
> --
> Julie A. Orozco
> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of
> Law, JD Candidate 2023
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/teresitarios22%40gmail.com




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 22:39:23 -0500
From: "Julie A. Orozco" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] Inaccessibility of Legal Careers
Message-ID:
        <CAHox4D+V212H88xUSPEuMviRKmfWGCT0XYk2awpsJph9BP-eYw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your kind comments. I am going to reach out to those of
you who offered this week. I was at the NFB of Virginia state
convention this weekend.

I really appreciate all of your support. It's good to know that my
clinic isn't a sign of things to come in my legal career. I think
everyone questions if they really want to do law in law school, but
this semester has made me question more than ever. So, thank you again
for allowing me to share. We have some hearings coming up, and my
professor seems to think I will do well in them, especially since one
is over the phone. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but at least we
won't have to make visual aids. :)

Julie


On 11/5/23, Teresita Rios via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Dear Julie,
>
> I am so sorry to hear of your struggles. I graduated last semester and my
> clinic work was very accessible. Our clinics used an internal case filing
> system named Cleo. it is accessible. Everything was scanned by the other
> students and the office assistant. We did have forms for my clients but they
> were arranged in a pile some sidewise and others straight. I used the TV in
> a meeting room to share my screen while I was navigating my copy of the
> forms on my computer while my client had those forms in front of them. FOr
> litigation, I had to spend much more time getting acquainted with the case
> file before I met with my partner and professor.
> I have ABBYFineReader on my personal computer and when a scan was not
> accessible i ran it by ABBY. Several times other students in the clinic not
> just my partner, or the office assistant read documents to me. and I took
> notes before I had a meeting with my supervising attorney. I was lucky in
> that sense that our professor was receptive and heard and brainstormed small
> issues we faced in the office. Inaccessibility is mostly due to laziness to
> brainstorm. and you should let your professor know that at least in her
> semester?s report.
>
> Best wishes,
> Teresita
>
>
>
>> On Nov 1, 2023, at 1:11 PM, Julie A. Orozco via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am really struggling and wonder if some of you can provide
>> perspective. First, how much of your legal work, particularly for
>> those of you with clients, is actually accessible to you as a blind
>> person? I ask this because I would guess that the work in my legal
>> clinic is 60 or 70 percent inaccessible, and there seems to be very
>> little I can do about it by the end of the semester.
>>
>> I am currently taking a civil advocacy clinic through my law school.
>> Each student works with a partner and interviews, files motions for,
>> and represents clients in court hearings. Ever since I started law
>> school, I've been blown away at the inaccessible nature of the legal
>> profession, especially considering my last career literally required
>> me to get Braille materials because music cannot be rendered in a Word
>> document. But this clinic is another level of inaccessibility I never
>> imagined.
>>
>> We had to do several mailings last week. The instructions were
>> hand-written, and the entire process was inaccessible, so my partner
>> had to do it while I stood there with nothing to do to help. We
>> routinely have to work with scanned images that can't be converted
>> into text easily (if at all) because they contain hand writing. I
>> asked for a reader when I realized this would be a problem, but the
>> reader they gave me works for our disability support office and is
>> only available in the mornings when I am in class. He signed a
>> confidentiality agreement, which was a requirement for my clinic, but
>> he still shares what he's working on with his supervisor, who cannot
>> be granted access to client information. I'm attempting to work out
>> these issues, but while I try, the work continues.
>>
>> When my professor, partner, and I edit motions and other writings,
>> it's a nightmare. First, I had to figure out Sharepoint, which lags
>> and doesn't seem to work well with Jaws. Another blind attorney gave
>> me some tips that really helped, but in the end, none of that mattered
>> because when the three of us started editing together, I was
>> completely lost. I was trying to listen to track changes, comments,
>> footnotes, and the text of the motion with Jaws while my professor and
>> partner were looking at printed pages and just marking off what they
>> wanted to change. I couldn't keep up. My professor apologized, but she
>> kept using the paper copies and changing things I couldn't see on my
>> document.
>>
>> There are also lots of little things, like taking pictures, scanning
>> documents and checking them when documenting information, and putting
>> paper packets and visual aids together. Finally, when filing with the
>> DC Superior court, their system was not completely keyboard
>> accessible, so I couldn't even take the lead in filing our motion. I'm
>> frankly very overwhelmed. Although I know I have a lot to learn and I
>> accept that we live in a visual world, this level of inaccessibility
>> is making me question getting into the legal field at all. I
>> understand that sometimes I can do more to fight for accessibility,
>> but what am I supposed to do when I have three other classes, am
>> applying to take the Bar, and am also trying to apply for fellowships
>> and jobs? I cannot take on all these battles, and for the first time,
>> I don't even know which ones, if any, matter. My partner and professor
>> are tolerant of all these issues, but it feels awful that I have to
>> rely on my partner to do so much. My professor has also made it clear
>> that I have to improve over the course of the semester and put more
>> work into my clinic assignments.
>>
>> I've tried to brain storm solutions. I've tried talking with my
>> partner about letting me figure out some of the inaccessible work.
>> Sometimes she gets something done while I'm still trying to figure out
>> how to make it accessible. Whenever I bring up these issues with my
>> professor, she acts like I should just expect things to be
>> inaccessible. "It's a visual world." And while that's true, she and
>> the university still have a legal obligation to make things accessible
>> when possible.
>>
>> I'm just not sure what to do, what to ask for, and how to proceed. I'm
>> tired, so tired, and I'm graduating at the end of the semester, so
>> part of me just wants to let all this go. But when I think about a
>> future career being like this, I just lose all desire to practice law
>> anymore.
>>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts? Please be kind if you think I should
>> just suck it up and keep fighting. I know this but would also love
>> some support.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> --
>> Julie A. Orozco
>> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of
>> Law, JD Candidate 2023
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/teresitarios22%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


--
Julie A. Orozco
MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of
Law, JD Candidate 2023



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