From nssulca at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 21:17:51 2024
From: nssulca at gmail.com (Natalia Sulca)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 16:17:51 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
 law school.
Message-ID: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 


From sanho817 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 21:28:56 2024
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 16:28:56 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
> with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
> encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
> visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
> precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
> typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
> directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
> independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
> has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
> deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
> colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
> Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
> with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
> limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
> affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
> font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
> way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
> explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
> since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
> the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
> which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
> feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
> evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
> and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
> cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com


From tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 21:35:22 2024
From: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com (tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 15:35:22 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>

Hello. Let me begin by saying that I do not know what recently developed AI
tools might be available to assist with  some portion of this work. I have
not relied on such tools due to confidentiality concerns, and I am not
convinced they can do what you are asking. The JAWS screen reader will
accurately identify these text attributes. Check out the sound schemes in
the JAWS settings. You can turn them on for MS Word so that the font
attributes are indicated using various sounds. You can also edit those sound
schemes and create your own for various attributes. That said, having a
human reader to describe these attributes and proofread what you have
written can be very helpful. I requested assistance from a human reader for
formatting and cite checking when I was editing articles for one of our
school journals. Being able to format your work is a valuable skill and you
will need to master it for preparing briefs, so I recommend that you not
request an exemption. At a minimum, your law school should be able to pair
you with a law student with a workstudy job at the law school to assist you
with this.
Tai
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m



From nssulca at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 21:47:56 2024
From: nssulca at gmail.com (Natalia Sulca)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 16:47:56 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401db2f03$357e0420$a07a0c60$@gmail.com>

Hello,
Thank you. AI tools can help as far as explaining but not for much more. My
original suggestion was to have a reader or student assigned to edit and
assist me also. I want to learn the skills of course, I just would prefer
that I not be graded for them if I'm not being assisted. The idea of a
student or reader was not received well and now that we are at the end of
the semester is when they want to assign one. I've been after them since the
very beginning about solving this. So far I  have not received adequate
support. 
I appreciate your response.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:35 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hello. Let me begin by saying that I do not know what recently developed AI
tools might be available to assist with  some portion of this work. I have
not relied on such tools due to confidentiality concerns, and I am not
convinced they can do what you are asking. The JAWS screen reader will
accurately identify these text attributes. Check out the sound schemes in
the JAWS settings. You can turn them on for MS Word so that the font
attributes are indicated using various sounds. You can also edit those sound
schemes and create your own for various attributes. That said, having a
human reader to describe these attributes and proofread what you have
written can be very helpful. I requested assistance from a human reader for
formatting and cite checking when I was editing articles for one of our
school journals. Being able to format your work is a valuable skill and you
will need to master it for preparing briefs, so I recommend that you not
request an exemption. At a minimum, your law school should be able to pair
you with a law student with a workstudy job at the law school to assist you
with this.
Tai
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nssulca%40gmail.com



From tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 22:01:53 2024
From: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com (tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 16:01:53 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <001401db2f03$357e0420$a07a0c60$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>
 <001401db2f03$357e0420$a07a0c60$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <044c01db2f05$28debeb0$7a9c3c10$@gmail.com>

I encountered similar resistance and my grades suffered. I encourage you to
insist upon the accommodations you need. Those should not include a request
to be exempted. Exemption might do you a great disservice in your law school
summer employment, and perhaps your future career. 
Tai
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:48 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hello,
Thank you. AI tools can help as far as explaining but not for much more. My
original suggestion was to have a reader or student assigned to edit and
assist me also. I want to learn the skills of course, I just would prefer
that I not be graded for them if I'm not being assisted. The idea of a
student or reader was not received well and now that we are at the end of
the semester is when they want to assign one. I've been after them since the
very beginning about solving this. So far I  have not received adequate
support. 
I appreciate your response.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:35 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hello. Let me begin by saying that I do not know what recently developed AI
tools might be available to assist with  some portion of this work. I have
not relied on such tools due to confidentiality concerns, and I am not
convinced they can do what you are asking. The JAWS screen reader will
accurately identify these text attributes. Check out the sound schemes in
the JAWS settings. You can turn them on for MS Word so that the font
attributes are indicated using various sounds. You can also edit those sound
schemes and create your own for various attributes. That said, having a
human reader to describe these attributes and proofread what you have
written can be very helpful. I requested assistance from a human reader for
formatting and cite checking when I was editing articles for one of our
school journals. Being able to format your work is a valuable skill and you
will need to master it for preparing briefs, so I recommend that you not
request an exemption. At a minimum, your law school should be able to pair
you with a law student with a workstudy job at the law school to assist you
with this.
Tai
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nssulca%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m



From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 22:41:46 2024
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie A. Orozco)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 17:41:46 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021c01db2f0a$bac2d230$30487690$@gmail.com>

Hi Natalia,

I encountered similar issues in my first year of law school. If you're
interested, I wrote an article that is in the October Braille monitor about
my experiences in my first year and how I dealt with my schools' resistance
to my advocacy.

I agree with everyone else that getting a human reader is your best bet.
This is a standard accommodation that many blind working professionals use
to spot check their work. I use human readers, and I imagine that many
others on this list do as well. Do not allow your university to call a human
reader an assistant. This is a valid accommodation that you should be
receiving from day one. 

The best way to handle the actual work is to do the best you can on your
own. Use caps lock or insert F to figure out what the font looks like. Learn
about Jaws sound schemes if you can. Things like underlines and changes in
font types you can detect fairly easily with Jaws. You can also read by line
to determine if you are orphaning headings. Double check every citation with
caps lock F to make sure you aren't underline/italicizing spaces. (That was
a big point drainer for me.) 

But you are correct that some things will just work better with sighted
assistance. My university was strict about what certain symbols looked like,
and sometimes, there was no way Jaws was going to tell me if my quotation
marks looked right, for example. I also could not figure out the heading
style my law school wanted. I remember spending hours trying to figure out
how to replicate what they wanted. It was just not something you could do
with Jaws. 

I would keep advocating for the reader. In the meantime, can you ask your
professor for extra time with their teaching assistants? That is what I did
until the law school came through for me. We had writing fellows in our law
school, and my legal writing professor had specific assistants assigned to
her that worked with everyone. I requested extra time to work with them and
asked them to help with some of the formatting stuff I found most tricky.
Asking for extra time with them is not ideal, since they are not readers
trained to work directly with you, and that time you get won't be enough.
But it will work until you get something in place. You can do as much as
possible on your own and then take what you think is the completed product
to the teaching assistants for help. In my experience, these other students
are happy to help. 

I'm sorry you're going through this, and if you have additional questions
for me, feel free to email me off list. My grades significantly improved
after my 1L year, I think, because legal writing was no longer a huge
stresser in my life.

Julie

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com



From tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 22:43:42 2024
From: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com (tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 16:43:42 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <021c01db2f0a$bac2d230$30487690$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <021c01db2f0a$bac2d230$30487690$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <047001db2f0a$fffe35b0$fffaa110$@gmail.com>

Yes, I agree with everything Julie says here. Thanks for all of this. I also
had better grades after 1L. 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie A. Orozco
via BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:42 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie A. Orozco <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hi Natalia,

I encountered similar issues in my first year of law school. If you're
interested, I wrote an article that is in the October Braille monitor about
my experiences in my first year and how I dealt with my schools' resistance
to my advocacy.

I agree with everyone else that getting a human reader is your best bet.
This is a standard accommodation that many blind working professionals use
to spot check their work. I use human readers, and I imagine that many
others on this list do as well. Do not allow your university to call a human
reader an assistant. This is a valid accommodation that you should be
receiving from day one. 

The best way to handle the actual work is to do the best you can on your
own. Use caps lock or insert F to figure out what the font looks like. Learn
about Jaws sound schemes if you can. Things like underlines and changes in
font types you can detect fairly easily with Jaws. You can also read by line
to determine if you are orphaning headings. Double check every citation with
caps lock F to make sure you aren't underline/italicizing spaces. (That was
a big point drainer for me.) 

But you are correct that some things will just work better with sighted
assistance. My university was strict about what certain symbols looked like,
and sometimes, there was no way Jaws was going to tell me if my quotation
marks looked right, for example. I also could not figure out the heading
style my law school wanted. I remember spending hours trying to figure out
how to replicate what they wanted. It was just not something you could do
with Jaws. 

I would keep advocating for the reader. In the meantime, can you ask your
professor for extra time with their teaching assistants? That is what I did
until the law school came through for me. We had writing fellows in our law
school, and my legal writing professor had specific assistants assigned to
her that worked with everyone. I requested extra time to work with them and
asked them to help with some of the formatting stuff I found most tricky.
Asking for extra time with them is not ideal, since they are not readers
trained to work directly with you, and that time you get won't be enough.
But it will work until you get something in place. You can do as much as
possible on your own and then take what you think is the completed product
to the teaching assistants for help. In my experience, these other students
are happy to help. 

I'm sorry you're going through this, and if you have additional questions
for me, feel free to email me off list. My grades significantly improved
after my 1L year, I think, because legal writing was no longer a huge
stresser in my life.

Julie

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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m



From nssulca at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 14:44:34 2024
From: nssulca at gmail.com (Natalia Sulca)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 09:44:34 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <044c01db2f05$28debeb0$7a9c3c10$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>
 <001401db2f03$357e0420$a07a0c60$@gmail.com>
 <044c01db2f05$28debeb0$7a9c3c10$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201db2f91$3b557020$b2005060$@gmail.com>

Good morning,
I really appreciate your response. I just want to clarify that I definitely
want to learn how to write citations, how to format correctly and am willing
to do the work. I suggested a human reader or a 3L, work study or even that
the professor spot-check my work before I turn it in and it was not
something that the school liked as an option. This is why the only solution
I could come up with is exemption for grading but not exemption in actually
doing the work. Does that make sense? 
They proposed the solution that I dictate to the professor or in a separate
document what the citations and format is supposed to be, however we are at
the end of the semester already and I can not replicate for dictation
something that I don't understand because it has not been taught to me in
spite of my insistence since the beginning of the semester that I was not
understanding and I needed additional help. Also, If I were able to dictate
the information, then I could type it myself. Just the suggestion of
dictation in general cam help you understand the level of ignorance I am
dealing with.
 I'm not doing too terribly but points are constantly being deducted for the
same things. I believe if I had someone to spot check before submission it
would help me greatly. Any resources or suggestions you have in order for me
to learn this would be greatly appreciated. What were you able to accomplish
for your own accommodations in school?
Best,
Natalia Sulca 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 5:02 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

I encountered similar resistance and my grades suffered. I encourage you to
insist upon the accommodations you need. Those should not include a request
to be exempted. Exemption might do you a great disservice in your law school
summer employment, and perhaps your future career. 
Tai
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:48 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hello,
Thank you. AI tools can help as far as explaining but not for much more. My
original suggestion was to have a reader or student assigned to edit and
assist me also. I want to learn the skills of course, I just would prefer
that I not be graded for them if I'm not being assisted. The idea of a
student or reader was not received well and now that we are at the end of
the semester is when they want to assign one. I've been after them since the
very beginning about solving this. So far I  have not received adequate
support. 
I appreciate your response.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:35 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hello. Let me begin by saying that I do not know what recently developed AI
tools might be available to assist with  some portion of this work. I have
not relied on such tools due to confidentiality concerns, and I am not
convinced they can do what you are asking. The JAWS screen reader will
accurately identify these text attributes. Check out the sound schemes in
the JAWS settings. You can turn them on for MS Word so that the font
attributes are indicated using various sounds. You can also edit those sound
schemes and create your own for various attributes. That said, having a
human reader to describe these attributes and proofread what you have
written can be very helpful. I requested assistance from a human reader for
formatting and cite checking when I was editing articles for one of our
school journals. Being able to format your work is a valuable skill and you
will need to master it for preparing briefs, so I recommend that you not
request an exemption. At a minimum, your law school should be able to pair
you with a law student with a workstudy job at the law school to assist you
with this.
Tai
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
m


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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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m


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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From nssulca at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 14:51:01 2024
From: nssulca at gmail.com (Natalia Sulca)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 09:51:01 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <021c01db2f0a$bac2d230$30487690$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <021c01db2f0a$bac2d230$30487690$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007301db2f92$21b82ad0$65288070$@gmail.com>

Hi Julie,
I am interested in reading your article yes. The school doesn't have
professor assistants that can help me however the professor does have office
hours. The professor sadly has been quite unhelpful. The school has fellows
who can assist but they are limited in the assistance they can provide and
this is not part of their capability or permission by the school. 
I have done as much as I can with jaws. Currently I've had points deducted
because of color, italics, justified documents, citations but not sure what
aspect etc. I will learn sound schemes and appreciate any other resources
you can share.
Has this affected your ability to practice or get employed?
Thank you for your time.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie A. Orozco
via BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 5:42 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie A. Orozco <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
in law school.

Hi Natalia,

I encountered similar issues in my first year of law school. If you're
interested, I wrote an article that is in the October Braille monitor about
my experiences in my first year and how I dealt with my schools' resistance
to my advocacy.

I agree with everyone else that getting a human reader is your best bet.
This is a standard accommodation that many blind working professionals use
to spot check their work. I use human readers, and I imagine that many
others on this list do as well. Do not allow your university to call a human
reader an assistant. This is a valid accommodation that you should be
receiving from day one. 

The best way to handle the actual work is to do the best you can on your
own. Use caps lock or insert F to figure out what the font looks like. Learn
about Jaws sound schemes if you can. Things like underlines and changes in
font types you can detect fairly easily with Jaws. You can also read by line
to determine if you are orphaning headings. Double check every citation with
caps lock F to make sure you aren't underline/italicizing spaces. (That was
a big point drainer for me.) 

But you are correct that some things will just work better with sighted
assistance. My university was strict about what certain symbols looked like,
and sometimes, there was no way Jaws was going to tell me if my quotation
marks looked right, for example. I also could not figure out the heading
style my law school wanted. I remember spending hours trying to figure out
how to replicate what they wanted. It was just not something you could do
with Jaws. 

I would keep advocating for the reader. In the meantime, can you ask your
professor for extra time with their teaching assistants? That is what I did
until the law school came through for me. We had writing fellows in our law
school, and my legal writing professor had specific assistants assigned to
her that worked with everyone. I requested extra time to work with them and
asked them to help with some of the formatting stuff I found most tricky.
Asking for extra time with them is not ideal, since they are not readers
trained to work directly with you, and that time you get won't be enough.
But it will work until you get something in place. You can do as much as
possible on your own and then take what you think is the completed product
to the teaching assistants for help. In my experience, these other students
are happy to help. 

I'm sorry you're going through this, and if you have additional questions
for me, feel free to email me off list. My grades significantly improved
after my 1L year, I think, because legal writing was no longer a huge
stresser in my life.

Julie

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via
BlindLaw
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:18 PM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
law school.

Hello All,

I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
independently.

Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
affecting my grades.

I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.

I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
cannot independently control.

Thank you all for your time and guidance.

Best regards,
Natalia Sulca

 

_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com


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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindLaw:
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From tim at timeldermusic.com  Tue Nov  5 15:41:47 2024
From: tim at timeldermusic.com (Tim Elder)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 07:41:47 -0800
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. 
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. 
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com





From michael.mcglashon at comcast.net  Tue Nov  5 16:07:34 2024
From: michael.mcglashon at comcast.net (MIKE MCGLASHON)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 10:07:34 -0600
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
 <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
Message-ID: <250901db2f9c$d875bd00$89613700$@comcast.net>

What if you were to go to your public library and have the librarian could assist you with formatting and citations since they are familiar with things like that.



Please advise as you like.

Mike M.

Mike mcglashon
AD9CA
Email: Michael.mcglashon at comcast.net
Ph: 618 783 9331

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 9:42 AM
To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com




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BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/michael.mcglashon%40comcast.net



From sbg at sbgaal.com  Tue Nov  5 16:15:32 2024
From: sbg at sbgaal.com (sbg sbgaal.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 16:15:32 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
 <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
Message-ID: <PH0PR22MB2631679D6A3CC37241FE1629D9522@PH0PR22MB2631.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

What is VR?  Vocational rehabilitation?  I live in Lubbock Texas.  Do you know where I would go to find this?

Sincerely,

Shannon Brady Geihsler

Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
1212 Texas Avenue
Lubbock, Texas 79401
Office:  (806) 763-3999
Mobile:  (806) 781-9296
Fax:  (806) 749-3752
E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
The information contained in this e-mail message (and/or the documents accompanying it) is intended only for the addressee, is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, and is legally privileged. Unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. This e-mail concerns legal matters and contains information protected by attorney/client privilege, attorney work product privilege, investigation privilege, and other possible privileges. None of these privileges are waived. Dissemination, forwarding, discussing, or sharing of the information contained in this e-mail or the e-mail itself is strictly forbidden and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please delete all electronic copies of this message and its attachments, if any, destroy any hard copies you may have created, without disclosing the contents, and notify the sender immediately.
The Texas Bar Disciplinary Rules requires Texas lawyers to notify recipients of e-mail that: (1) e-mail communication is not a secure method of communication; (2) any e-mail that is sent to you or by you may be copied and held by various computers through which it passes as it goes from sender to recipient; (3) a person not participating in our communication may intercept our communications by improperly gaining access to your computer or even some computer not connected to either of us through which the e-mail passes.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 9:42 AM
To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com




_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com

From sanho817 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 16:36:59 2024
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 11:36:59 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR22MB2631679D6A3CC37241FE1629D9522@PH0PR22MB2631.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <PH0PR22MB2631679D6A3CC37241FE1629D9522@PH0PR22MB2631.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FCA847E0-951A-4CFB-8611-F4815217886E@gmail.com>

There are two agencies in Texas, but I believe you'd contact the Texas Workforce Commission. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 5, 2024, at 11:17 AM, sbg sbgaal.com via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> What is VR?  Vocational rehabilitation?  I live in Lubbock Texas.  Do you know where I would go to find this?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Shannon Brady Geihsler
> 
> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC
> 1212 Texas Avenue
> Lubbock, Texas 79401
> Office:  (806) 763-3999
> Mobile:  (806) 781-9296
> Fax:  (806) 749-3752
> E-Mail:  sbg at sbgaal.com
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
> The information contained in this e-mail message (and/or the documents accompanying it) is intended only for the addressee, is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, and is legally privileged. Unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. This e-mail concerns legal matters and contains information protected by attorney/client privilege, attorney work product privilege, investigation privilege, and other possible privileges. None of these privileges are waived. Dissemination, forwarding, discussing, or sharing of the information contained in this e-mail or the e-mail itself is strictly forbidden and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please delete all electronic copies of this message and its attachments, if any, destroy any hard copies you may have created, without disclosing the contents, and notify the sender immediately.
> The Texas Bar Disciplinary Rules requires Texas lawyers to notify recipients of e-mail that: (1) e-mail communication is not a secure method of communication; (2) any e-mail that is sent to you or by you may be copied and held by various computers through which it passes as it goes from sender to recipient; (3) a person not participating in our communication may intercept our communications by improperly gaining access to your computer or even some computer not connected to either of us through which the e-mail passes.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
> Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 9:42 AM
> To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.
> 
> " a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.
> 
> Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.
> 
> Natalia:
> 
> Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate.
> 
> Sanho
> 
>> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm
>> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently
>> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness
>> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook,
>> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and
>> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily
>> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way
>> to ensure compliance independently.
>> 
>> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my
>> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive
>> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page
>> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor
>> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than
>> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability
>> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken
>> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
>> 
>> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual
>> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I
>> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
>> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else
>> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
>> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a
>> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and
>> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly
>> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
>> 
>> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
>> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
>> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
>> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on
>> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting
>> elements that I cannot independently control.
>> 
>> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Natalia Sulca
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindLaw mailing list
>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
>> .com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com


From nssulca at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 16:58:23 2024
From: nssulca at gmail.com (Natalia Sulca)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 11:58:23 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
 <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
Message-ID: <001a01db2fa3$ecb19f80$c614de80$@gmail.com>

Hello,

I am an advanced jaws and braille user. My husband is also an advanced IT instructor. I know the commands for word for track changes, formatting, settings, etc. This is why I say with complete accuracy because there are some things that jaws cannot point out completely and that I can not verify with braille if the professor isn't teaching me or I am not being accommodated with someone who is able to instruct me.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:42 AM
To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com




_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nssulca%40gmail.com



From rodalcidonis at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 17:33:25 2024
From: rodalcidonis at gmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 12:33:25 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <001a01db2fa3$ecb19f80$c614de80$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
 <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
 <001a01db2fa3$ecb19f80$c614de80$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801db2fa8$d1cfa860$756ef920$@gmail.com>

I am in agreement with you that JAWS cannot convey visual formatting accurately; however, if you know how the content should be formatted, JAWS does provide you with enough interpretive information to work with a sighted assistant to format your document accurately.

Bottomline, you will need to work with sighted assistance to ensure that what you envision your document looking like, is what it is actually in its final form.

I personally would never, for the sake of my reputation, present any document as final to a court or a professor without first having had it verified visually. JAWS Is not there yet. And I say this as an attorney who also write scripts for JAWS and also code.

This is not to say you shouldn't make the effort to first format the document on your own. You need to know enough to direct your assistant -- I want this heading bolded. I want to ensure that this word is indeed highlighted. I want to check my indentations, etc. You should be able to ask questions, such as: if I have a heading 2 here, is there sufficient contrast with the rest of the paragraph? You need to have a firm understanding as to what certain formatting convey visually. What does it mean when you bold your text, highlight it, or italicize it. These are concepts that are fundamental to effective legal writing whether you are blind or sighted.

It also helps to have sample documents that you have written and know to have been formatted the way you like to guide the discussion.

It is helpful to have your reader read the document to you as currently formatted so you can point out the corrections you want to make. As I pointed out, you need to be able to direct the conversation. For example, please read this paragraph for me and verbalize all the bolded text as they come up. While JAWS can identify different formatting, again, here, we are speaking in terms of verifying and finalizing the document visually for presentation. 

Hope this helps.


Rod,



Rod Alcidonis, Esq.



 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 11:58 AM
To: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Hello,

I am an advanced jaws and braille user. My husband is also an advanced IT instructor. I know the commands for word for track changes, formatting, settings, etc. This is why I say with complete accuracy because there are some things that jaws cannot point out completely and that I can not verify with braille if the professor isn't teaching me or I am not being accommodated with someone who is able to instruct me.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:42 AM
To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com




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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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From tim at timeldermusic.com  Tue Nov  5 18:03:11 2024
From: tim at timeldermusic.com (Tim Elder)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 10:03:11 -0800
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <004801db2fa8$d1cfa860$756ef920$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <C4E01FDC-DDFD-4ED3-8580-55AE8E27A3A6@gmail.com>
 <013d01db2f99$3a092060$ae1b6120$@timeldermusic.com>
 <001a01db2fa3$ecb19f80$c614de80$@gmail.com>
 <004801db2fa8$d1cfa860$756ef920$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e001db2fac$fa8bade0$efa309a0$@timeldermusic.com>

FWIW: the large majority of attorneys (blind and sighted) have others proof reading their documents for these formatting issues and other common typographical errors.  Some firms even have dedicated word processing departments for such tasks.  This is usually due to billing efficiency. 




-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Alcidonis <rodalcidonis at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 9:33 AM
To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; tim at timeldermusic.com
Cc: 'Natalia Sulca' <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

I am in agreement with you that JAWS cannot convey visual formatting accurately; however, if you know how the content should be formatted, JAWS does provide you with enough interpretive information to work with a sighted assistant to format your document accurately.

Bottomline, you will need to work with sighted assistance to ensure that what you envision your document looking like, is what it is actually in its final form.

I personally would never, for the sake of my reputation, present any document as final to a court or a professor without first having had it verified visually. JAWS Is not there yet. And I say this as an attorney who also write scripts for JAWS and also code.

This is not to say you shouldn't make the effort to first format the document on your own. You need to know enough to direct your assistant -- I want this heading bolded. I want to ensure that this word is indeed highlighted. I want to check my indentations, etc. You should be able to ask questions, such as: if I have a heading 2 here, is there sufficient contrast with the rest of the paragraph? You need to have a firm understanding as to what certain formatting convey visually. What does it mean when you bold your text, highlight it, or italicize it. These are concepts that are fundamental to effective legal writing whether you are blind or sighted.

It also helps to have sample documents that you have written and know to have been formatted the way you like to guide the discussion.

It is helpful to have your reader read the document to you as currently formatted so you can point out the corrections you want to make. As I pointed out, you need to be able to direct the conversation. For example, please read this paragraph for me and verbalize all the bolded text as they come up. While JAWS can identify different formatting, again, here, we are speaking in terms of verifying and finalizing the document visually for presentation. 

Hope this helps.


Rod,



Rod Alcidonis, Esq.



 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 11:58 AM
To: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Hello,

I am an advanced jaws and braille user. My husband is also an advanced IT instructor. I know the commands for word for track changes, formatting, settings, etc. This is why I say with complete accuracy because there are some things that jaws cannot point out completely and that I can not verify with braille if the professor isn't teaching me or I am not being accommodated with someone who is able to instruct me.
Best,
Natalia Sulca 


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via BlindLaw
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 10:42 AM
To: 'Sanho Steele-Louchart' <sanho817 at gmail.com>; 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tim Elder <tim at timeldermusic.com>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

" a screen reader cannot convey visual layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy."  This is not a true statement.  In addition to getting a human reader to verify formatting.  You might also get a private tutor from VR to help teach you advanced screen reader functionality and/or Braille, which does designate many formatting attributes in both audio and Braille.  I had a private instructor show me all the advanced track changes and other Microsoft Word formatting functions with JAWS during my 1L.  I also used a Braille display.  Most folks aren't fast enough to efficiently use Braille for everything.  I certainly wasn't.  Even if you aren't a fast Braille reader, you can use it for verifying the citations.  You'll need to find someone very particular/advanced  for this instruction.  The average AT trainer won't have a clue.

Stay encouraged.  IF you work hard you will eventually develop a system for formatting. 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sanho Steele-Louchart <sanho817 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 1:29 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in law school.

Natalia: 

Typically, the accommodation in this instance is to provide a reader to assist in spotchecking for formatting, not to omit formatting requirements altogether. You would need to know what to do, then have the reader confirm that things are how you want them. This is especially important if you plan to litigate. 

Sanho 

> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:19 PM, Natalia Sulca via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm 
> facing with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently 
> a 1l. I've encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness 
> to exempt me from visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, 
> such as font color, precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and 
> other specific typographic elements. These requirements are heavily 
> visual, yet they directly impact my grades, even though I have no way 
> to ensure compliance independently.
> 
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my 
> school has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive 
> grade deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page 
> numbers, font colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor 
> prefers certain Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than 
> italicized, which conflicts with both the instructions and my ability 
> to format accurately with JAWS limitations. Points are regularly taken 
> off for such details, significantly affecting my grades.
> 
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual 
> layout, font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I 
> assign it one way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen.
> I have also explained  that dictating these elements to someone else 
> is impractical since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result.
> Despite my efforts, the school has been reluctant to implement a 
> content-only grading approach, which I believe would be a fair and 
> appropriate solution. This has left me feeling increasingly 
> frustrated, as my academic performance is being evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
> 
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what 
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate 
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on 
> content and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting 
> elements that I cannot independently control.
> 
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
> 
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail
> .com




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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rodalcidonis%40gmail.com




From rthomas48 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 04:24:05 2024
From: rthomas48 at gmail.com (Roderick Thomas)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 23:24:05 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Question
Message-ID: <0fe935ac-cc64-41bf-bea3-2a97409aec9e@gmail.com>


Hey family, my name is Roderick Thomas and I have recently just passed 
the Florida bar. I am considering being a remote document reviewer, but 
I am not sure how Jaws or N.D.V.A. will work with the document reviewer 
software. Does anyone have any experience working as a document reviewer 
using Jaws or N.D.V.A? Also, does anyone have any suggestions of where I 
could apply?


Yours Truly,


Roderick Thomas



From sanho817 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 13:35:11 2024
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (Sanho Steele-Louchart)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2024 08:35:11 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Reminder: NABL Quarterly Connection Tonight at 7
 Eastern: Client Interviewing and Negotiation
Message-ID: <4FE7D216-DB9B-44FB-903E-1792C4CBF2CE@gmail.com>

All: 

Just a reminder about tonight's Quarterly Connection. This month's topic will be a round-table discussion about skills used for client interviewing and negotiation. Please let us know if you have any questions in the meantime. Zoom information is below. 
Sanho Steele-louchart is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: NABL Quarterly Connection
Time: Nov 16, 2024 07:00 PM America/Detroit

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/87876013280?pwd=WMqenvlSWngnWK0MY6R0Tn5oHl4a6y.1

Meeting ID: 878 7601 3280
Passcode: 157274

---

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+19292056099,,87876013280#,,,,*157274# US (New York)

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Passcode: 157274

Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kdharXILgd



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From nikki.singh at aya.yale.edu  Sun Nov 17 02:12:43 2024
From: nikki.singh at aya.yale.edu (Nikki Singh)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2024 21:12:43 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting
 in law school.
In-Reply-To: <044c01db2f05$28debeb0$7a9c3c10$@gmail.com>
References: <000901db2eff$02213330$06639990$@gmail.com>
 <043301db2f01$7497f4b0$5dc7de10$@gmail.com>
 <001401db2f03$357e0420$a07a0c60$@gmail.com>
 <044c01db2f05$28debeb0$7a9c3c10$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADv2uYmsWKmqe3j7ZZ+W=czUBmaCSA=xsVOqxb3NQVXW1guQRQ@mail.gmail.com>

I echo everything here. You have to keep advocating for a reader or else a
3L who can work with you for you to learn formatting and citations. JAWS
and a Braille display go pretty far. However, you should have a sighted
individual look over documents before they go to a formal setting, like
court!



A reader is a very standard accommodation, though many academic settings
and employers struggle with the idea. It is expensive and a deeply foreign
notion to how most people practice law. That being said, the quality of the
work product should pay for a qualified reader over time. I know it is
frustrating until you have access to a reader. You are paying good money to
attend law school. They have to provide you both the education and the
reasonable accommodation.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2024 at 5:03 PM Tai Tomasi via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> I encountered similar resistance and my grades suffered. I encourage you to
> insist upon the accommodations you need. Those should not include a request
> to be exempted. Exemption might do you a great disservice in your law
> school
> summer employment, and perhaps your future career.
> Tai
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca
> via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:48 PM
> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual
> formatting
> in law school.
>
> Hello,
> Thank you. AI tools can help as far as explaining but not for much more. My
> original suggestion was to have a reader or student assigned to edit and
> assist me also. I want to learn the skills of course, I just would prefer
> that I not be graded for them if I'm not being assisted. The idea of a
> student or reader was not received well and now that we are at the end of
> the semester is when they want to assign one. I've been after them since
> the
> very beginning about solving this. So far I  have not received adequate
> support.
> I appreciate your response.
> Best,
> Natalia Sulca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tai Tomasi via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 4:35 PM
> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual
> formatting
> in law school.
>
> Hello. Let me begin by saying that I do not know what recently developed AI
> tools might be available to assist with  some portion of this work. I have
> not relied on such tools due to confidentiality concerns, and I am not
> convinced they can do what you are asking. The JAWS screen reader will
> accurately identify these text attributes. Check out the sound schemes in
> the JAWS settings. You can turn them on for MS Word so that the font
> attributes are indicated using various sounds. You can also edit those
> sound
> schemes and create your own for various attributes. That said, having a
> human reader to describe these attributes and proofread what you have
> written can be very helpful. I requested assistance from a human reader for
> formatting and cite checking when I was editing articles for one of our
> school journals. Being able to format your work is a valuable skill and you
> will need to master it for preparing briefs, so I recommend that you not
> request an exemption. At a minimum, your law school should be able to pair
> you with a law student with a workstudy job at the law school to assist you
> with this.
> Tai
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Natalia Sulca
> via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 3:18 PM
> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Natalia Sulca <nssulca at gmail.com>
> Subject: [blindLaw] assistance with accommodations for visual formatting in
> law school.
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm reaching out for advice regarding a challenging situation I'm facing
> with accommodations in my legal writing course. I am currently a 1l. I've
> encountered ongoing issues with my school's unwillingness to exempt me from
> visual formatting requirements under the Bluebook, such as font color,
> precise alignment, italics versus underlining, and other specific
> typographic elements. These requirements are heavily visual, yet they
> directly impact my grades, even though I have no way to ensure compliance
> independently.
>
> Despite repeatedly requesting and being promised accommodations, my school
> has yet to deliver any workable solution. I continue to receive grade
> deductions for elements I cannot see or verify, like page numbers, font
> colors, and specific visual preferences. My professor prefers certain
> Bluebook elements to be underlined rather than italicized, which conflicts
> with both the instructions and my ability to format accurately with JAWS
> limitations. Points are regularly taken off for such details, significantly
> affecting my grades.
>
> I have tried explaining that a screen reader cannot convey visual layout,
> font color, or alignment with much accuracy, especially if I assign it one
> way and word randomly changes it as its prone to happen. I have also
> explained  that dictating these elements to someone else is impractical
> since I cannot visually guide or verify the end result. Despite my efforts,
> the school has been reluctant to implement a content-only grading approach,
> which I believe would be a fair and appropriate solution. This has left me
> feeling increasingly frustrated, as my academic performance is being
> evaluated on factors that are inaccessible to me as a blind student.
>
> I would be very grateful for any advice on how to approach this situation.
> Has anyone on this list encountered a similar issue, and if so, what
> strategies or resources were helpful? I want to find a way to advocate
> effectively for accommodations that allow my work to be assessed on content
> and legal understanding, rather than visual formatting elements that I
> cannot independently control.
>
> Thank you all for your time and guidance.
>
> Best regards,
> Natalia Sulca
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
> m
> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nssulca%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.co
> m
> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tai.tomasi8%40gmail.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindLaw mailing list
> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindLaw:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/nikki.singh%40aya.yale.edu
>

From rothmanjd at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 20:39:09 2024
From: rothmanjd at gmail.com (rothmanjd at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2024 15:39:09 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Aira and Coart
Message-ID: <116901db3930$c15f8e00$441eaa00$@gmail.com>

Folks,

I have an inquiry from someone needing to connect with blind attorneys
who've used Aira in court - virtual or in person.  Please reach out to me
off-list - rothmanjd at gmail.com <mailto:rothmanjd at gmail.com> .

 

 

Ronza Othman, President

National Federation of the Blind of Maryland

443-426-4110

Pronouns: she, her, hers

 

The National Federation of the Blind of Maryland knows that blindness is not
the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the
expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles
between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want;
blindness is not what holds you back

 

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From jholtgreve at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 23 21:27:26 2024
From: jholtgreve at yahoo.com (John Holtgreve)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 21:27:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [blindLaw] Moot Court
References: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
I've been lurking here for the past few years but don't think I've posted yet. I'm a 2L getting ready to sign up for intramural moot court. Before I sign up, I'd like to ensure that the school will provide whatever accommodations I request, and before requesting those accommodations I wanted to float the issue here. For those who competed as students, what accommodations did you request and what accommodations do you wish you had requested to help bridge the gap with your sighted peers? For reference, I'm a mid-to-low partial but have, as yet, received the following accommodations: extra time on exams, exams compatible with JAWS, the occasional reformatted PDF, and peer notetaker. I've familiarized myself with WestLaw, but still fear my reading speed is lacking compared to my classmates. I'm taking trial advocacy this semester and do notice that I can assimilate information and speak extemporaneously easier than my peers. As we approach our final trials I'm beginning to see the utility of a human reader, though I have yet to use one at any point in my educational career. 
All this is to say- I don't want to seem unreasonable in what I ask for, but also don't want to unreasonably limit myself out of stubbornness (or worse, impede my partner's performance). Anyone's thoughts and experiences will be truly valued.
Best,John Holtgreve

From sanho817 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 02:27:12 2024
From: sanho817 at gmail.com (sanho817 at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:27:12 -0500
Subject: [blindLaw] Moot Court
In-Reply-To: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <28309599.1470708.1732397246514@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009401db3ee1$89cf0090$9d6d01b0$@gmail.com>

Hello,

I used a combination of accessible electronic documents, a laptop, phone, or tablet with a wireless earbud, hardcopy Braille, a slate and stylus, a refreshable Braille display, accessible exhibit markers, and having document formatting reviewed by a sighted reader prior to final submission (during which I told them what was needed.)

Sanho

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of John Holtgreve via BlindLaw
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2024 4:27 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: John Holtgreve <jholtgreve at yahoo.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Moot Court

Hi all,
I've been lurking here for the past few years but don't think I've posted yet. I'm a 2L getting ready to sign up for intramural moot court. Before I sign up, I'd like to ensure that the school will provide whatever accommodations I request, and before requesting those accommodations I wanted to float the issue here. For those who competed as students, what accommodations did you request and what accommodations do you wish you had requested to help bridge the gap with your sighted peers? For reference, I'm a mid-to-low partial but have, as yet, received the following accommodations: extra time on exams, exams compatible with JAWS, the occasional reformatted PDF, and peer notetaker. I've familiarized myself with WestLaw, but still fear my reading speed is lacking compared to my classmates. I'm taking trial advocacy this semester and do notice that I can assimilate information and speak extemporaneously easier than my peers. As we approach our final trials I'm beginning to see the utility of a human reader, though I have yet to use one at any point in my educational career. All this is to say- I don't want to seem unreasonable in what I ask for, but also don't want to unreasonably limit myself out of stubbornness (or worse, impede my partner's performance). Anyone's thoughts and experiences will be truly valued.
Best,John Holtgreve
_______________________________________________
BlindLaw mailing list
BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindLaw:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sanho817%40gmail.com



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Nov 25 20:20:04 2024
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 20:20:04 +0000
Subject: [blindLaw] Moot Court
In-Reply-To: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <28309599.1470708.1732397246514.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <28309599.1470708.1732397246514@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SA9PR09MB5454041E377DC37D690A6EFAF92E2@SA9PR09MB5454.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>

I participated in a National Institute for Trial Advocacy program.  During our trial in front of a real judge and a jury, my opposing counsel put his bag between the plaintiff and defense counsel tables while I was questioning a witness.  The bag had not been there when I had entered the well.  When I returned from to my counsel's table, I was very glad that I had been using my cane, as I would have tripped or fallen over the bag if I had not been.      I am certain that my opposing counsel had placed the bag there in the hopes I would look ridiculous tripping or falling over the bag.  The lesson I learned was to use my cane at all times!


Noel


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of John Holtgreve via BlindLaw
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2024 1:27 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Cc: John Holtgreve <jholtgreve at yahoo.com>
Subject: [blindLaw] Moot Court


Hi all,
I've been lurking here for the past few years but don't think I've posted yet. I'm a 2L getting ready to sign up for intramural moot court. Before I sign up, I'd like to ensure that the school will provide whatever accommodations I request, and before requesting those accommodations I wanted to float the issue here. For those who competed as students, what accommodations did you request and what accommodations do you wish you had requested to help bridge the gap with your sighted peers? For reference, I'm a mid-to-low partial but have, as yet, received the following accommodations: extra time on exams, exams compatible with JAWS, the occasional reformatted PDF, and peer notetaker. I've familiarized myself with WestLaw, but still fear my reading speed is lacking compared to my classmates. I'm taking trial advocacy this semester and do notice that I can assimilate information and speak extemporaneously easier than my peers. As we approach our final trials I'm beginning to see the utility of a human reader, though I have yet to use one at any point in my educational career.
All this is to say- I don't want to seem unreasonable in what I ask for, but also don't want to unreasonably limit myself out of stubbornness (or worse, impede my partner's performance). Anyone's thoughts and experiences will be truly valued.
Best,John Holtgreve
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