[Blindmath] Introduction

Fri Nov 6 00:31:50 UTC 2009

Good points about the verbosity of mathml but is the problem the format 
or the lack of tools.

As an example I would say that most people would not tend to write HTML 
source now but would generally use a tool to generate it, that's why 
there are the various languages used for wikis and such like (markdown, 
RST, etc). As there are so many tools to handle HTML (from generation to 
reading) people don't seem to have a problem with it.

In the same way I would say if we had the correct tools for mathml then 
the verbosity wouldn't be a problem. Out of interest have you looked at 
instiki? I know it doesn't solve the problem of creating a full report 
which might be suitable for printing, but it does show how maths can be 
put on the web using mathml but not needing the author to know or deal 
directly with mathml.

I would also say that in the help information in instiki about itex it 
makes some interesting points, eg. the LaTeX source $pin$ and $p i n$ 
are the same in TeX but itex converts them to different mathml, one 
being a single item "pin" and the other being three items "p", "i" and "n".

So I feel our current problem with mathml is to do with the tools to 
deal with it not the format. Since liblouisxml has started to have UK 
Braille maths support my interest has started up again on mathml, I feel 
Braille is better for reading maths (compared to speech output) and also 
on linux I think liblouisxml is possibly the only accessible tool to 
read mathml (firefox could do with mathml accessibility, even if it was 
to the fairly basic output to screen readers used in mathplayer).

Michael Whapples
On 05/11/09 17:39, P. R. Stanley wrote:
> in the words of a good friend, the main problem with MathML is the 
> syntax. To generate it, you either need to use a GUI editor, which is 
> bound to be inefficient compared with typing a textual representation 
> of the mathematical expressions, not to mention accessibility issues, 
> or convert another format such as TeX to MathML.
> The syntax is simply too verbose to be typed directly with any degree 
> of convenience. Obviously, to read it one needs a converter of some 
> kind - a MathML renderer.
>
> Paul
>
> At 21:52 03/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Hello Andrew. This list fielded basically the same question just a 
>> few days ago. My advice then was MathML, the math language of the 
>> future and accessible at least in Internet Explorer with MathPlayer. 
>> And also accessible by translating the XML source in the free braille 
>> translator ap called liblouis.
>>
>> You will hear from others about Latex, which is still very widely 
>> used, as you know. It is possible to display math images with Latex 
>> ALT attributes, and in general these are accessible. If one can read 
>> the text normally and only have equations in Latex, things read 
>> relatively easily. Latex equations are almost obvious, and it's easy 
>> enough to look up the occasional symbol that isn't. Still my strong 
>> advice is go for the future and use MathML.
>>
>> You'll also need to make images accessible. Use DAISY SVG! The big 
>> problem with both MathML and SVG is that Internet Explorer doesn't 
>> support them. FireFox does, but IE and some others do not, so MathML 
>> and SVG still aren't that widely used. There is an elegant way to be 
>> all things to all people, using MathML and SVG for clients that use 
>> them and images for those that don't. I'm happy to discuss it with 
>> you, but it's probably beyond the tolerable limits of this list to 
>> discuss such details here.
>>
>> FYI most people on this know that in addition to being Oregon State 
>> Emeritus faculty, I am founder of ViewPlus, which makes the cool 
>> software you need for some of these things. Full disclosure.
>>
>> John Gardner
>> Professor of Physics Emeritus
>> Oregon State U:niversity
>>
>> On 11/3/2009 12:12 PM, Andrew Stacey wrote:
>>> Dear Blindmath Community,
>>>
>>> I've just joined your mailing list, and would like to bombard you 
>>> with some
>>> questions, so thought I should introduce myself first. I learnt 
>>> about your
>>> list from Michael Whapples, via a comment on Terrence Tao's blog about
>>> displaying mathematics on the web (I believe that he has mentioned this
>>> discussion in a comment on this list before I joined).
>>>
>>> I am a mathematician, currently living in Norway. I am particularly
>>> interested in using technology to make my (i.e. a mathematician's) 
>>> job easier.
>>> One part of this is in using technology to improve our communication of
>>> mathematics, both to other mathematicians and to the wider 
>>> community. In
>>> particular, I am one of the team behind the n-lab project
>>> (http://ncatlab.org/nlab) which is a sort of "open lab book" for
>>> mathematicians (and a few others).
>>>
>>> This brings up the issue of accessibility. In making our mathematics
>>> available, we need to think about how our audience will access it. 
>>> It's very
>>> easy to design a website that looks alright to me, but that's no 
>>> guarantee
>>> that it will be accessible to all. So I was pleased to learn of this 
>>> list
>>> from Michael and would love to learn from you, in particular get 
>>> some guidance
>>> on how best to make a website accessible to partially sighted and 
>>> blind users.
>>>
>>> This issue has recently taken on a more personal note for me as none 
>>> of my
>>> children have perfect vision. I don't think that any would qualify as
>>> partially sighted: the one with the worst vision should still be 
>>> able to drive
>>> a car when he's older, but it has made me think a little more about 
>>> how much
>>> they will be able to use a computer, especially given how much an 
>>> integral
>>> part of our lives computers now are.
>>>
>>> As I said, I shall shortly be bombarding you with questions - I hope 
>>> you don't
>>> mind this - but thought it polite to provide a little background as 
>>> to why I'm
>>> asking them first.
>>>
>>> Andrew Stacey
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
>
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