[Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams

Tue Oct 26 11:25:09 UTC 2010

Hi,
  My understanding was that he is a sighted Psychologist who studies 
blindness and drawing. Sorry if incorrect, likely I am but this was always 
my understanding from others I know who have known him.
many thanks,
Christine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bernard M Diaz" <b.m.diaz at liverpool.ac.uk>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams

> Hi, yes thanks - Kennedy is the figure/ground guy (I believe)
> who is blind and draws amazing perspective diagrams of objects.
>
> I think on the reading of the advice so far this is a "degrees
> of freedom" thing?  My attempt to embed a surface into 3D and
> then "project" the result to produce lines in such a way that
> they gave depth cue was bound to fail (but it took 2 days to
> convince myself ...).  What if, instead of a surface, it was
> a sphere.  I suspect because it is a convex object with all
> potential surface normals "pointing outwards", it would be more
> amenable to successful representation - it becomes a coherent
> object, the space it occupies cannot be shown occupied by
> anything else.  Thus most space preserving projections:
> perspective, orthogonal you name it? should reserve that space
> in all views - and provide figure/ground separation if
> presented correctly, and be amenable to representation tactually
> (is that the right word?).  I suspected this is what Kennedy
> was been getting at, in the only paper by him I've read ...
> (And many apologies, if I've miss-represented his work)
>
> The "haptics" people may have a way to do this.  A "haptic
> model" of solid 3D objects can be generated, then wearing
> "haptic gloves" you feel the object (the boundary surface,
> or figure/ground, if you will).  You can also use "haptic pens"
> that allow you to touch the sphere.  From perception of lots
> of such sampling, the sphere emerges in the mind. (Costs? mmmm)
>
> The "haptic model" and the "convex surface model" essentially
> "image synthesis" or "computer graphics", often comes from
> a "scene graph" - a formal textual description of objects
> in some space, and their movement through that space.
> Each solid object has a surface representation, for graphics
> display and haptic representation purposes.
> "Solidity" emerges and is "tactile" because each object
> is positioned relative to the observer, who occupies the
> same "haptic space" and can interact with the objects.
> If there are 6 degrees of freedom to the observer (using
> gloves, pens, whatever) then those can be used to perceive
> that 3D world.  This is not possible with 2D projections
> (I'd surmise) which remove at least 3.5 degrees of sensing
> freedom.
> The best one could hope to do, using David Marr's conjecture,
> would be to get 2.5D (e.g. the Tiger examples below that have
> x, y, and 8 dot heights - Marr surmised "colour") which is
> what conventional bubble-paper, and Braille dot diagrams can
> achieve successfully I guess.
>
> But all this is far removed from maths, and Braille, sorry.
>
> Regards - Bernard Diaz.
>
> Sarah Jevnikar wrote:
>> Here's a link to his c.v, detailing all his work and providing contact 
>> info.
>> http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~kennedy/cv.html
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Christine Szostak
>> Sent: October 25, 2010 7:42 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams
>>
>> Check out John Kennedy, I think he is Professor of Psychology at U. 
>> Toronto,
>>
>> He studies drawing and total blindness and I think he has done some work 
>> with 3-D though I could be wrong on my memory.
>> many thanks,
>> Christine
>>
>>
>> Christine M. Szostak
>> Doctoral Candidate
>> Language Perception Laboratory
>> Department of Psychology, Cognitive Area
>> The Ohio State University
>> Columbus, Ohio
>> szostak.1 at osu.edu
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Larry Wayland" <larry.wayland at arkansas.gov>
>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 4:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams
>>
>>
>>> I agree with Lloyd on this.  I do not think there is anyway a three 
>>> dimensional representation can be adequately done using a Braille 
>>> drawing. Indicating three dimensions on a two dimension plane is done by 
>>> using optical allusions.  You can't do that tactually.  The lines are 
>>> all there but they just will not look three dimensional.
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry Wayland
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Rasmussen, Lloyd
>>> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:15 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams
>>>
>>> As a totally blind electronics engineer who got his bachelor's degree in 
>>> the 1960's, I think that getting an understanding of three-dimensional 
>>> concepts from two-dimensional drawings has severe limitations.  Is this 
>>> an
>>
>>> isometric or perspective projection?  From what distance is the "object" 
>>> being viewed?
>>>
>>> Talk to the people in the math department who study topology.  Do they 
>>> ever make solid models of the shapes they are describing algebraically? 
>>> Note that the solution to the problem of everting a sphere (turning it 
>>> inside out) was first proposed by a French blind mathematician.  He 
>>> visualized what sighted people were unable to visualize.
>>>
>>> Talk to people in mechanical engineering or industrial design 
>>> departments about stereolithography or 3D printing, where numerically 
>>> controlled machines are used to create solid models (quite expensively 
>>> and slowly).
>>>
>>> Going these routes will not get you all the drawings your textbooks use, 
>>> but they should get you enough information and examples so that you 
>>> understand the concepts, in some cases more correctly than sighted 
>>> students will from the limited viewpoint of paper and blackboards.
>>>
>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer
>>> National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
>>> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
>>> http://www.loc.gov/nls
>>> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those 
>>> of the Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Bernard M Diaz
>>> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:00 PM
>>> To: Rasmussen, Lloyd; Blind Math list for those interested in 
>>> mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] psychology statistical diagrams
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've experience of generating only one diagram that NEEDED 3D - a plane 
>>> embedded in 3D; that is a "surface"; and yes used the Tiger system.  It 
>>> took about 2 days playing to get a not too successful result, which we 
>>> did
>>
>>> not use in the end!
>>>
>>> I'm clearly not very good at this sort of thing, it needs an artistic (I 
>>> think that's the best word) flourish which I guess I don't have.  And I 
>>> guess, my knowledge of 3D use is limited too ...
>>> I'm sorry I've not looked at economic stuff, trends, and time series 
>>> stuff - which I suspect could all benefit from the 3D aspect you 
>>> suggest. I suspect, for each, it would be useful to know the approach 
>>> chosen - if anyone attempts to do (or has done it) please do share your 
>>> findings.
>>>
>>> Simple "images" (essentially phtographic stuff rendered into "tonal 
>>> pictures") e.g. most of the Tiger examples I've looked at: flowers 
>>> parts, coloured country diagrams, digestive systems, most maps - all 
>>> work well. Where there is an attempt to get tonal representation to 
>>> mimic depth cueing - what I've done suggests: a) its hard, and b) not 
>>> too successful at getting over what is intended.  But, as I say, perhaps 
>>> I'm not thinking
>>
>>> about this in the correct way - and would appreciate pointers.
>>>
>>> A final note.  Many staff use Powerpoint. Where a diagram is involved I 
>>> suggest that they copy the "slide" then edit that to remove all but the 
>>> diagram.  Enlarge that so that it fuses correctly ("touchably" .... is 
>>> that the correct word? This also involves thinking about any colour 
>>> coding
>>
>>> used) and provide in the "notes" section for that slide a textual 
>>> description of the diagram using the language guideline mentioned 
>>> before. Then, those slides are "hidden" with a note that they are for 
>>> "accessibility purposes".  The idea is that the student (or teacher) can 
>>> fuse the diagram (slide object); Jaws the notes section (notes object) 
>>> while "touching" the fused version, and have Jaws read any text on the 
>>> slide proper as well.
>>> ...
>>>
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