[Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)

Sina Bahram sbahram at nc.rr.com
Sun Dec 4 20:34:24 UTC 2011 

*smile*, I'm going to duck out of this discussion. There seems to be a lot of strong feelings about it, and therefore phrases such
as, any reasonable person can tell, x, y, and z are used as justification. Whereas such a phrase is of course applicable to someone
such as Dr. Gardner, I would hope that a more standard process could be used to determine the relative Marot of a particular
intellectual concept such as the mechanism by which mathematics is expressed via Braille.

I'm glad that there seems to be some agreement with John, and I don't find myself strongly disagreeing with him at all, but I would
sure like to do that because of the science or first principles, instead of, you'll please forgive me, blindly following apparent
common sense.



Website: www.SinaBahram.com
Twitter: @SinaBahram


-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan Mooney
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 3:25 PM
To: john.gardner at orst.edu; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)

Way to go, John, Gardner. Thank you!

SM

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, John Gardner <john.gardner at orst.edu> wrote:

> Hello Sina.  I'm not venting.  I am just pointing out that there is very
> little quality research on literary braille usage, much less on something
> that only a few percent of braille readers seem to be concerned about.  But
> it doesn't take research for anybody to understand that reading something
> like
> #d;,a#b;,d is a cognitively larger load than reading a hex number as 4A2D.
> Nor does it take research to know that having well-defined number symbols
> is
> necessary to be able to represent computer braille and that it will surely
> make math braille easier to code/read.  I do not deny that a great deal of
> research is needed to identify the very best unified braille code.  But I
> claim that a group of unselfish braille-using scientists could come up with
> a good one.  UEBC ain't that.
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sina Bahram [mailto:sbahram at nc.rr.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 9:26 AM
> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; 'Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics'
> Subject: RE: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
>
> John, I'm going to assume you're either A. speaking tongue and cheak, or B.
> just venting/frustrated about the situation, since my
> email was quite serious, and sincere.
>
>
> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of John Gardner
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 11:51 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
>
> Sina, please do be serius.  There are not even any fully reliable studies
> comparing the effectiveness of contracted vs non-contracted braille.  But
> there are plenty of people who will assure you that contracted braille is
> much more efficient.  What evidence there is points to the opposite
> conclusion.  The NFB has been making noises about studying this question
> but
> thus far has not.
>
> There was an attempt early in the 20'th century to develop a uniform math
> code, but representatives used it as a platform to proclaim that their
> particular math code was the best and should be adopted.  Reminds me of the
> UEBC in some ways.
>
> Even if there was a fully reliable study of such braille questions, I doubt
> that everybody would happily follow the recommendations.
>
> John
>
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:10 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
>
> I also don't understand why the problem has to be trivialized into
> complaints such as the letters of the alphabet can't represent
> numbers. Is there research about the cognitive load on users of Nemeth, for
> example, versus another code? Are there cognitive models
> built which are based upon actual perceptual psychology, store/recall, or
> other experimentally validated data that support such a
> claim?
>
> A real mathematician, I feel, would balk at signing a petition when so many
> general claims exist. As a researcher, I find myself
> asking, where's the how/why of it? where's the science to back up one over
> the other? Where's the actual research that shows how a
> system for mathematics should be designed based on first principles instead
> of on anecdotal common wisdom?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 2:27 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
>
> I think many of us realize that something has to change, even if we're not
> sure which route should be followed.  Blind
> kids will have no way to deal with many of the texts in education if we
> cant
> bring more of the variations of print to
> braille.  They will get the extra information with screen readers instead
> even if it is less effective.  This isn't a simple
> issue and the future path isn't clear, but just clinging to the past won't
> work, either.  Send opinions to BANA if you
> have obvious solutions, but the world is changing, print is changing, and
> we
> have to find a way for braille to change in
> an organized and reasonable way.  I'm not saying I know which code is best
> because I truly don't know, but we have
> to take this on as a challenge to our ingenuity and not just kick and
> scream
> and wish that the world stopped changing
> in 1960.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 15:53:35 -0500, Susan Mooney wrote:
>
> >I don't understand why the consumers don't revolt and put their feet
> firmly
> >down.  Where's the rally from the braille readers themselves?
>
> >SM
>
> >On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Susan Jolly <easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Those of us who oppose the UEB have tried many tactics and written many
> >> words explaining its problems. None of these have worked.
> >>
> >> I'm wondering if the best tactic is to enlist sighted mathematicians and
> >> math teachers to create some sort of manifesto.  One need know nothing
> >> about Braille or tactile reading to clearly state that one cannot
> >> effectively either understand or do mathematics with a writing system
> that
> >> uses same characters for the decimal digits as for certain letters of
> the
> >> alphabet.  Adoption of the UEB would mean assuming that Braille users
> have
> >> no need to understand mathematics.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Susan Jolly
> >>
> >> Sent from my wonderful iPad
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>
>
> >--
> >Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. --CS
> >Lewis
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-- 
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. --CS
Lewis
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