[Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a solution?
David Engebretson Jr.
davide at soundandscience.com
Wed Dec 21 00:56:44 UTC 2011
had x-rays today. two fractured ribs... out 6 to 8 weeks. ug.
David Engebretson
Support at PeaceWeaverHosting.com - "We know what our name means"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a solution?
> There possibly is maths in whether the pain was sufficient to make you
> remember, there probably is some correlation between the force, the pain
> and the likelihood you will remember. Not wanting to perform the
> experiments on myself to gain the data to show the correlation, unless any
> volunteers come forwards may be we should just leave that one.
>
> As for your question, I think John answered your question of what gave
> way/deformed in the impact, well the ground may have very, very slightly,
> probably so small it might be unmeasurable.
>
> As for why can something not just be stopped instantly, well consider it
> from another angle, the law of conservation of momentum. Have a read of
> the wikipedia article on momentum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum,
> pay particular attention to the sections on elastic and inelastic
> collisions. Consider what would happen if the ground or you neither
> deformed in the impact, it probably would be a totally elastic collision,
> the earth therefore would have slightly been knocked into having a
> different velocity (extremely slight due to the differences of mass) and
> you would find it slowly moving away (probably soon overcome due to
> gravity). Also it should be noted that elastic does not mean the objects
> would not have deformed at all, rather it means that they will return
> perfectly to the original shapes after the force is removed. Only
> something with infinite stiffness (link to a wikipedia article on
> stiffness/rigidity in the momentum one) will not deform, again may be the
> infinite property should raise a question mark. Now for the inelastic
> collision, if it is inelastic then it deformed.
>
> Probably sufficient physics for now, much more and I may have to start
> approximating you to a sphere in physicist style.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 19 Dec 2011, at 20:57, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>
>> Okay, Michael.
>>
>> Of course the pain has been sufficient enough for mme to avoid that in
>> the future. That has nothing to do with the mathematics behind the
>> problem I have stated.
>>
>> The ground did not move when the 14" of my rib cage hit the rim of the
>> hole... My ribs simply contracted and made several large popping and
>> cracking sounds. The air was hence knocked out of my body. I could no
>> longer breathe.
>>
>> Do you mind showing me an example in this context that would support your
>> arguement that an object of mass 'm' couldn't be stopped instantaneously
>> by slamming into point 'p'?
>>
>> Thanks for your help in my understanding of your logic,
>> David
>>
>> David Engebretson
>> Support at PeaceWeaverHosting.com - "We know what our name means"
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 9:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a solution?
>>
>>
>>> The area of impact will have no influence on the force experienced, the
>>> area will determine what pressure is encountered. Whether force really
>>> determines the pain, may be not, the pressure might do that (standing on
>>> your feet doesn't hurt, however push a pin in your foot with much less
>>> force and that will hurt.
>>>
>>> I still think you probably need to know either the distance the mass is
>>> stopped over or the time to stop the mass. A wall or the ground which
>>> give very little (although small it may shift, think of how the ground
>>> can bump/vibrate as a heavy vehicle passes, e.g. a goods train passing
>>> through a rail station) will exert a greater force than something like a
>>> trampoline which gives a long way when you hit it and so is slowing you
>>> over a greater time or distance (slowing you down slower). Both time and
>>> distance could be very small (don't know exactly but may be microseconds
>>> or micro-metres), but a zero time or distance will lead to an infinite
>>> force and so should be viewed with great suspicion.
>>>
>>> Alternative methods might be to assess the damage (e.g.. did it break a
>>> bone) and then find out what sort of force would be able to cause that
>>> damage. Another one is to see whether the force was sufficient to make
>>> you remember the mistake and so avoid it in future.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 19 Dec 2011, at 15:32, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know, Michael...
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure it can be calculated with vectors, but it has been so
>>>> long since I've done vector calculus that i feel like i don't have the
>>>> know-how right now.
>>>>
>>>> What I see in my head is what I initially described; a 170 pound mass
>>>> travelling horizontally at 2.5 mph. The horizontal plane drops four
>>>> feet. The mass is of sufficient height that it hits at the rim of the
>>>> four foot deep 4 foot diameter hole at nearly the exact time the base
>>>> of the mass hits the bottom of the hole.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, I'm assuming, all forces, horizontal and vertical, are
>>>> focused on the rim of the hole when the mass hits it. The 68" mass
>>>> absorbs some kind of force at its four foot height.
>>>>
>>>> The assumptions of an equally distributed mass and a 14 inch wide
>>>> impact point at the mass' four foot height should have enough to figure
>>>> out how many newtons of force were placed upon the object, right?
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I would just need my HP48G (and some sight) to figure it out.
>>>> I'm almost certain I did problems like this in college, um, a while
>>>> ago.
>>>>
>>>> And Ken, we should talk... sounds like you have very similar
>>>> experiences with gravity, force, and pain, that I do.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all for your comments. I really appreciate the brain teaser
>>>> and all of your insights towards it.
>>>>
>>>> I've spent a lot of time norizontal trying to repair the impact point.
>>>> I keep thinking, "what would the equation look like for that
>>>> situation?"
>>>>
>>>> But then, luckily, I am distracted with the books I read on the Victor
>>>> Reader Stream while being horizontal.
>>>>
>>>> Again, thanks for your help,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Whapples"
>>>> <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 6:01 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a solution?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Coming back to your original question, you could do it without knowing
>>>>> the time, however the time would still not be zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> You could do it by considering what energy was absorbed in the impact
>>>>> and what distance the force was acting for. I guess a way of
>>>>> calculating the distance might be to use the size of the impression
>>>>> you left on the ground and the indent the ground left on you. Well may
>>>>> be a bit more than just what is left should either the ground or you
>>>>> restore your shape after the force is removed. Also it may or may not
>>>>> be significant, if falling don't forget that there is a change in
>>>>> gravitational potential energy when moving vertically, it possibly is
>>>>> not relevant in this case as I doubt either indent was that large.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also don't forget either using time or distance, these will assume
>>>>> force is constant over that period and so is an average. If you want
>>>>> the maximum force then I am not sure it can be calculated with what is
>>>>> known here and probably would require you to repeat it with something
>>>>> to measure the pressure/force, either presenting the maximum or taking
>>>>> readings constantly and then you could process that. While it might be
>>>>> interesting to know, I am not sure I would want to do that just to
>>>>> find out what force was encountered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>> On 19 Dec 2011, at 13:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sun lamp was fully intact. I didn't purposely protect it with care,
>>>>>> but it came out of the pit before I did. No oxygen intake for me at
>>>>>> that point. Innate mover and protector ability, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ew, I know that seeing stars thing... I was moving a photo processor
>>>>>> once. The entrance for the photo paper was only about 4 feet tall
>>>>>> (hmmm, coincidence?) and I was unscrewing the front cover and forgot
>>>>>> the wall was so short. I stood up really fast to get the next screw
>>>>>> quickly since I was getting paid by the hour and like to be worth an
>>>>>> employers time. Top of head bonk at 4 feet trying to move as quickly
>>>>>> as possible vertically and horizontally at the same time from a
>>>>>> crouching position. I saw stars and lost at least one inch of height
>>>>>> due to neck compression. Don't think I ever healed from that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still moved the processor that evening, but might have had to take a
>>>>>> couple of days off once the concussion or whatever it was took full
>>>>>> affect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think math and physics analysis in an embedded systems environment
>>>>>> is much safer for most blind folk. Especially if said blind people
>>>>>> are energetic (er, stupid) enough to get him/her self in trouble with
>>>>>> physical injury.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aw heck, sometimes a little physical pain is good for the body. Puts
>>>>>> hair on your chest, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>> To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
>>>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:32 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a
>>>>>> solution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ha you should not be ashamed the ones that are ashamed are the ones
>>>>>>> who do
>>>>>>> not know they can be as crazy as the sited folks. One of my
>>>>>>> favorite miss
>>>>>>> haps close to yours was carrying 50 pounds of roofing tile up two
>>>>>>> floors on
>>>>>>> a rickety ladder to teach my teenager how to patch a roof. Now this
>>>>>>> is all
>>>>>>> after running into a power pole with the previously mentioned 50
>>>>>>> pounds of
>>>>>>> roofing tiles balanced on my head showing off. Can someone come up
>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>> formula for a 180 pound guy hitting the ground from 5 foot 3 and a
>>>>>>> quarter
>>>>>>> up and waiting for a 50 pound pile of roofing tiles which landed,
>>>>>>> yup that's
>>>>>>> right on my head? All I can say is whatever force is calculated is
>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>> force needed to make stars. Anyway I know sited people who have
>>>>>>> done worse
>>>>>>> than us and they can see. I am just glad that I can still do all
>>>>>>> the wood
>>>>>>> working and you name it that I still do I would be ashamed if I gave
>>>>>>> it all
>>>>>>> up just because of a bit of universal star creation. Hey did you
>>>>>>> break the
>>>>>>> lamp? I bet you didn't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:10 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] physics/mathematics problem; have a
>>>>>>> solution?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I appreciate your willingness to share. It helps me be less ashamed
>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>> carelessness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
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