[Blindmath] [Blind math] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

Fri May 27 15:50:52 UTC 2011

Ken,

In the case of Apple, MAC has supplied the screen reader, but they don't expect that everyone who develops software for the MAC to know and emulate 
everything that VoiceOver does.  They expect that developers conform to specific practices so that VoiceOver can do its job.  It really isn't much different 
than what is being discussed here except of course that Apple is including the screen reader, and that is significant.  You are probably right that you are 
living in a dream world, but it isn't that what you are advocating wouldn't be nice, I just don't think it can be implemented practically in a way that would turn 
out to be consistent or efficient for us.  Scrolling captions are far simpler than the kind of access that we need to some information.  Remember that movie 
makers don't add language tracks because they are concerned that speakers of other languages have a right to see movies, they want to make money in 
those markets, pure and simple.  

Whether the model of who pays for screen readers changes or not, I don't want every software developer trying to figure out what I need.  I want at least 
some layer of assistive technology by a company familiar with what makes me efficient providing a layer I can control.  In most cases, when I use software 
with a self-voicing component, I find it more efficient to use my screen reader.  

It is probably time for us to be somewhat considerate of persons who joined this list to discuss math, though.  While what we are discussing affects math, it 
really goes way beyond math.  I really don't think you will likely have to worry that JFW will be locked out of this process.  I am having to restrain myself from 
saying more about how Freedom Scientific chooses to spend its money.  <smile>.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 27 May 2011 10:07:41 -0400, Ken Perry wrote:

>Ah I see so if we went by that we should have never expected the movie
>companies to put tracks on their movies that convert them into other
>languages, voice description, and even the scrolling text for the deaf.  The
>fact is if it's done by the providers of content it is cheaper for them to
>make it accessible to start with then for access companies to come along
>later and make it accessible.  The same goes with computers Mac has done it
>correctly even if it is not perfect yet   Access for all content should be
>built in not mashed together but I guess I am living in a dream world.

>Ken

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:01 AM
>To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] [Blind math] Somewhat positive yet disappointing
>press release

>Well, my take on it is that we will never be able to reasonably expect
>all those who generate math content to understand the needs of print
>disabled users and to spend a lot of time creating formats,
>descriptions and other solutions just for them.
>There is a gigantic amount of math being generated every day, and the
>only way we will be able to access it is if we can access the same
>files and formats that other users can with little to no human
>intervention.
>This leaves technology as the go-between between content creators and
>consumers.
>The more technology can do and automate, the larger portion of math we
>can access.
>Currently, even if Pearson wanted to make a math text book accessible,
>most likely they would wait to see if any blind student wanted a copy
>(my guess is that for over 90% of their math text books, they probably
>will never get special requests from blind students for a braille or
>advanced audio copy).
>I, as a student or professional, won't know I need the book until days
>or weeks before I have to use it.
>Creating specialized content is expensive and slow, so I may end up
>getting said books weeks or months late, despite their best efforts,
>by which time it may have become useless to me.
>I prefer a 90% access to any book instantly to 100% access to a book
>with a month wait time.
>I also prefer to not have to rely on special processes and people to
>put in a lot of hours to make things work for me.
>It would not be economically possible for publishers to manually
>encode all math equations text and graphics to suit everyone's needs.
>Therefore we need to rely on standards such as MathML, that benefits
>not only blind users, but also the learning disabled community and
>people using PDAs and small screens.
>I talked to a representative from a big publisher in February at a
>conference, and they said they are excited about MathML and as soon as
>it is supported in end user devices such as Kindle, iBooks on the iPad
>etc, they'll switch over to it, since it saves them a lot of money and
>effort.
>But standards are a tricky thing. Everyone has to use them to make
>them effective.
>It's not enough for publishers to use the standards. A.T. companies
>must implement solutions that take advantage of that those standards
>as well. Otherwise the material that is inherently accessible, cannot
>make it all the way to the end users.
>I think the responsibility of publishers and content creators is to
>put their work into standardized format that can be renderred for
>everyone. But it has to be the responsibility of the company
>specializing in rendering formats for a group of users, to transform
>it from the standard format to the interface that works best for their
>targetted user group.
>Math can never be translated by mapping one print symbol to one
>braille symbol, for instance. The fact that location matters and math
>is a two-dimensional notation means that some intelligent translation
>has to take place between printed math and braille or speech, things
>that are linear in nature.
>We should not expect publishers, who have no knowledge of how a blind
>person operates, let alone professors, teachers, magazine editors and
>so on, to understand speech, braille, math codes, synchronized speech
>and braille etc. Again, that comes down to the Assistive Technology
>industry. If they do not do this, what are they good for?
>I applaud the DSI efforts in this area and I look forward to seeing the
>results.
>I just have to stress the importance of a flexible braille support
>architecture, and not just commit to Nemeth or UEB, but to allow
>different organizations to plug in the braille codes they want to use.
>Liblouis offers this, as far as I know.

>Thanks
>-B

>On 5/27/11, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:
>> See that is the problem I don't think access should have to depend on any
>> screen reader.  With the way active content can be done now and speech can
>> be transmitted online it would be much better to make the content talk.
>> While I sometimes argue the point that is made with a system like
>Emacspeak
>> there is something to accessible content without a screen reader having to
>> be involved.
>>
>> For example can you imagine what it would be like if the Movie companies
>had
>> said we will make it possible for screen readers to make our movies
>> accessible but it will be up to the companies who make them to implement
>the
>> our api to make them talk?  It would be much better if the publishers make
>> their tests and books accessible without depending on software the user is
>> using.  For example if you have a graph or a it would be better to put it
>in
>> several formats that different access technology can deal with.  For that
>> matter maybe even recorded spoken word for some of the descriptive.  If
>each
>> publisher did it then the access comes default.
>>
>> In sina's example a company like Pearsons could use math player to have
>> access to the equations spoken  and maybe in the future brailed if they
>need
>> it but that should work no matter the screen access program.
>>
>> So I guess what I would like to see is accessible content not content that
>> someone needs to make accessible.
>>
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On
>> Behalf Of Stephen L Noble
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:03 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release
>>
>> The work in question is not designed to limit math usage to any
>> particular screen reader. Any screen reader can modify their product to
>> support math. Indeed, JAWS already supports math speech when using IE
>> plus MathPlayer. The grant in question takes this work much further,
>> however. Let me quote what Neil Soiffer said: "Freedom Scientific did
>> not want to participate in the grant, GW Micro did."
>>
>> Nothing will stop JAWS, NVDA, or any other screen reader from
>> implementing the same functionality that will be in Window-Eyes as a
>> result of this research project. It simply means that they have to make
>> math access a priority and devote the necessary development resources to
>> make it happen. It certainly isn't the fault of companies like ETS or
>> Design Science that the folks that make JAWS do not see math support as
>> all that  important. The quickest way to get screen reader vendors
>> interested in math support is for customers (including big customers
>> like state service agencies) to tell them that this is a priority and
>> you know it can be done.
>>
>> I have had countless discussions with vendors for years about the need
>> for better math support. What they usually tell me is that there is not
>> enough demand for increased math functionality to warrant expending
>> development time to make it happen. Often, they tell me that I am the
>> only person who ever mentions it. Here's a quote copied and pasted from
>> an email I received a vendor not too long ago:
>> "...we choose features based on the scenarios they complete and on the
>> customer feedback we here. We've heard your feedback loud and clear and
>> we will take it into account. At this point there's nothing further we
>> need from you."
>> So, the point is that vendors need to hear from customers, large and
>> small, that they need to put in the work to get better math support in
>> their products.
>>
>> --Steve Noble
>>
>>
>>>>> Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> 5/27/2011 7:14 AM >>>
>> No iI said they should use standards like html 5 to make it work there
>> are
>> all kinds of things they could do from using flash to control the
>> reading of
>> text or html descriptive recordings that can be controlled by the web
>> page
>> and not by the screen reader.  What I am trying to say is this should
>> not be
>> geared to one or another screen reader.  GW being involved may not be
>> the
>> greatest way to go.  What I mean is if we are all forced to use
>> Window-eyes
>> just to read math that would be silly.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:04 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>> release
>>
>>
>> Ok, now let's discuss some real mathematics, not highschool
>> arithmetic.
>>
>> Please state a standards compliant, AT agnostic,  way of stating the
>> reamon
>> zeta function?
>>
>> Here's the function
>>
>> zeta(x)=1/(Gamma(x))int_0^infty(u^(x-1))/(e^u-1)du
>>
>> I'd like that read outloud sensibly please.
>>
>> Several techniques exist, but you say there's a standards compliant way
>> to
>> do this, without freedom's intervention. What would that
>> be?
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 12:46 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>> release
>>
>> Well from talking to the Pearsons coders they are trying to make the
>> subject
>> matter accessible no matter the access difficulties. For example in
>> the
>> chapter I have in front of me right now if you go to a diagram that is
>> a bar
>> chart.  Or how about a parabola it has access in two ways one is a long
>> desc
>> like alt that works in any screen reader but another for a better
>> description is you click on the picture and it brings up a full
>> description
>> of the graph in question as if a person was describing it to you.  They
>> are
>> using math player to read the functions and things and the test I took
>> as a
>> sample was accessible whether I be totally blind, visually impaired, or
>> a
>> regular sighted user.  I just think if things are designed correctly
>> it
>> doesn't matter the access software.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:41 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics;
>> patti at 4dewitt.com
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>> release
>>
>> Maybe Neil will feel like explaining more, but the odds are that
>> whatever GW
>> Micro does will likely benefit Freedom Scientific.  I must say that I'm
>> a
>> little surprised that people would feel that Freedom Scientific was
>> wronged
>> here when they chose to not put anything into this project and to sit
>> back
>> and benefit from the work of others.  I'm not sure there is any way to
>> interpret math in a way that is so standard that screen readers won't
>> have
>> to do some work.  In addition, the model of how software is made
>> accessible
>> is changing and screen readers are having to make some adjustments.  We
>> are
>> very much moving away from MSAA toward UI Automation, and this does
>> require
>> some effort on the part of screen readers.  Over time, there will be
>> more
>> standard ways of handling this, but it does worry me some that there
>> seems
>> to be a significant amount of work that screen readers have to do to
>> make
>> individual software accessible.  Time will tell how it all works out.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Fri, 27 May 2011 01:26:06 +0000, patti at 4dewitt.com wrote:
>>
>>>In addition, as a technology teacher of the blind in nj, most kids are
>>
>>>at the mercy of the commission or the schools for their technology.
>>>They get them
>> jaws most times.
>>>Universal access is my dream. It should all be interconnected On the
>>>other hand, Jaws users have a huge underground of script writers who
>>>may already have solved my problem
>>
>>>Sent on the Sprint. Now Network from my BlackBerry.
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>Sender: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:57:31
>>>To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in
>>>mathematics'<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>	<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>>>release
>>
>>>See this is where I have to ask.  If you use standards like html 5 and
>>
>>>make sure that things are more than just accessible to screen readers
>>
>>>it won't be hard for companies like FS to keep it accessible.  This
>>>shouldn't be a war against companies it should be a war to make Math
>>>accessible whether a person uses sight or sound or smell to read math.
>>
>>>If standards of the world are followed rather than making up a
>> standard
>>>just for the blind then it won't be an issue.
>>
>>>Ken
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
>>>Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 4:13 PM
>>>To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>>>release
>>
>>>We are adding new functionality (eg, navigation for math and being
>> able
>>>to read math directly in a word doc without saving to a web page
>> first).
>>>Unless JAWS or other AT adds code to their product to take make the
>>>appropriate calls to the new interfaces that get defined, it won't
>> pick
>>>up that new functionality.
>>
>>>Neil Soiffer
>>>Senior Scientist
>>>Design Science, Inc.
>>>www.dessci.com
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Patti Mitchell <patti at 4dewitt.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Is Jaws using something else?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:08 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
>>>> release
>>>>
>>>> We would like as many screen readers as possible to be part of this
>> work.
>>>> Freedom Scientific did not want to participate in the grant, GW
>> Micro
>> did.
>>>> I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want math support
>>
>>>> in
>>>your
>>>> AT, you need to make it very clear to your AT vendor that if they
>>>> don't support math well, you'll use a different product that does.
>>>>
>>>> Neil Soiffer
>>>> Senior Scientist
>>>> Design Science, Inc.
>>>> www.dessci.com
>>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation
>>>> Editor ~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Jose Tamayo <jtblas at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > In the press release below, JAWS is not mentioned at all.  This is
>>
>>>> > such a significant press release yet a market player such as JAWS
>>
>>>> > is not even mentioned, any reason?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.
>>>> >
>>>> > dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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