[Blindmath] [Blind math] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

Sun May 29 03:33:22 UTC 2011

Not if no one followed the standard we wouldn't which is what I am saying if
there was an api with movies sure it would work but same goes for books.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:11 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] [Blind math] Somewhat positive yet disappointing
press release

Yes, we'd have a metric ton more accessible movies, per your example, if
there was an API to get at their text. Are you kidding me?
That example is brilliant Ken. Unfortunately it doesn't address your point.

Forgive me, but I really don't think you understand how MathML works. You've
continuously referred to it as screen reader specific,
which boggles the mind, and also referred to it as not standards compliant.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:19 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] [Blind math] Somewhat positive yet disappointing
press release

See that is the problem I don't think access should have to depend on any
screen reader.  With the way active content can be done now and speech can
be transmitted online it would be much better to make the content talk.
While I sometimes argue the point that is made with a system like Emacspeak
there is something to accessible content without a screen reader having to
be involved.  

For example can you imagine what it would be like if the Movie companies had
said we will make it possible for screen readers to make our movies
accessible but it will be up to the companies who make them to implement the
our api to make them talk?  It would be much better if the publishers make
their tests and books accessible without depending on software the user is
using.  For example if you have a graph or a it would be better to put it in
several formats that different access technology can deal with.  For that
matter maybe even recorded spoken word for some of the descriptive.  If each
publisher did it then the access comes default.  

In sina's example a company like Pearsons could use math player to have
access to the equations spoken  and maybe in the future brailed if they need
it but that should work no matter the screen access program.

So I guess what I would like to see is accessible content not content that
someone needs to make accessible.

Ken

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Stephen L Noble
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:03 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

The work in question is not designed to limit math usage to any
particular screen reader. Any screen reader can modify their product to
support math. Indeed, JAWS already supports math speech when using IE
plus MathPlayer. The grant in question takes this work much further,
however. Let me quote what Neil Soiffer said: "Freedom Scientific did
not want to participate in the grant, GW Micro did." 

Nothing will stop JAWS, NVDA, or any other screen reader from
implementing the same functionality that will be in Window-Eyes as a
result of this research project. It simply means that they have to make
math access a priority and devote the necessary development resources to
make it happen. It certainly isn't the fault of companies like ETS or
Design Science that the folks that make JAWS do not see math support as
all that  important. The quickest way to get screen reader vendors
interested in math support is for customers (including big customers
like state service agencies) to tell them that this is a priority and
you know it can be done.   

I have had countless discussions with vendors for years about the need
for better math support. What they usually tell me is that there is not
enough demand for increased math functionality to warrant expending
development time to make it happen. Often, they tell me that I am the
only person who ever mentions it. Here's a quote copied and pasted from
an email I received a vendor not too long ago:
"...we choose features based on the scenarios they complete and on the
customer feedback we here. We've heard your feedback loud and clear and
we will take it into account. At this point there's nothing further we
need from you." 
So, the point is that vendors need to hear from customers, large and
small, that they need to put in the work to get better math support in
their products.

--Steve Noble 

>>> Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> 5/27/2011 7:14 AM >>>
No iI said they should use standards like html 5 to make it work there
are
all kinds of things they could do from using flash to control the
reading of
text or html descriptive recordings that can be controlled by the web
page
and not by the screen reader.  What I am trying to say is this should
not be
geared to one or another screen reader.  GW being involved may not be
the
greatest way to go.  What I mean is if we are all forced to use
Window-eyes
just to read math that would be silly.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:04 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
release

Ok, now let's discuss some real mathematics, not highschool
arithmetic.

Please state a standards compliant, AT agnostic,  way of stating the
reamon
zeta function?

Here's the function

zeta(x)=1/(Gamma(x))int_0^infty(u^(x-1))/(e^u-1)du

I'd like that read outloud sensibly please.

Several techniques exist, but you say there's a standards compliant way
to
do this, without freedom's intervention. What would that
be?

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 12:46 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
release

Well from talking to the Pearsons coders they are trying to make the
subject
matter accessible no matter the access difficulties. For example in
the
chapter I have in front of me right now if you go to a diagram that is
a bar
chart.  Or how about a parabola it has access in two ways one is a long
desc
like alt that works in any screen reader but another for a better
description is you click on the picture and it brings up a full
description
of the graph in question as if a person was describing it to you.  They
are
using math player to read the functions and things and the test I took
as a
sample was accessible whether I be totally blind, visually impaired, or
a
regular sighted user.  I just think if things are designed correctly
it
doesn't matter the access software.  

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:41 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics;
patti at 4dewitt.com 
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
release

Maybe Neil will feel like explaining more, but the odds are that
whatever GW
Micro does will likely benefit Freedom Scientific.  I must say that I'm
a
little surprised that people would feel that Freedom Scientific was
wronged
here when they chose to not put anything into this project and to sit
back
and benefit from the work of others.  I'm not sure there is any way to
interpret math in a way that is so standard that screen readers won't
have
to do some work.  In addition, the model of how software is made
accessible
is changing and screen readers are having to make some adjustments.  We
are
very much moving away from MSAA toward UI Automation, and this does
require
some effort on the part of screen readers.  Over time, there will be
more
standard ways of handling this, but it does worry me some that there
seems
to be a significant amount of work that screen readers have to do to
make
individual software accessible.  Time will tell how it all works out.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 27 May 2011 01:26:06 +0000, patti at 4dewitt.com wrote:

>In addition, as a technology teacher of the blind in nj, most kids are

>at the mercy of the commission or the schools for their technology. 
>They get them
jaws most times.
>Universal access is my dream. It should all be interconnected On the 
>other hand, Jaws users have a huge underground of script writers who 
>may already have solved my problem

>Sent on the Sprint. Now Network from my BlackBerry.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at blinksoft.com>
>Sender: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:57:31
>To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in 
>mathematics'<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>	<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press 
>release

>See this is where I have to ask.  If you use standards like html 5 and

>make sure that things are more than just accessible to screen readers

>it won't be hard for companies like FS to keep it accessible.  This 
>shouldn't be a war against companies it should be a war to make Math 
>accessible whether a person uses sight or sound or smell to read math.

>If standards of the world are followed rather than making up a
standard 
>just for the blind then it won't be an issue.

>Ken

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
>Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 4:13 PM
>To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press 
>release

>We are adding new functionality (eg, navigation for math and being
able 
>to read math directly in a word doc without saving to a web page
first).
>Unless JAWS or other AT adds code to their product to take make the 
>appropriate calls to the new interfaces that get defined, it won't
pick 
>up that new functionality.

>Neil Soiffer
>Senior Scientist
>Design Science, Inc.
>www.dessci.com 

>On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Patti Mitchell <patti at 4dewitt.com>
wrote:

>> Is Jaws using something else?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:08 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press 
>> release
>>
>> We would like as many screen readers as possible to be part of this
work.
>> Freedom Scientific did not want to participate in the grant, GW
Micro
did.
>> I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want math support

>> in
>your
>> AT, you need to make it very clear to your AT vendor that if they 
>> don't support math well, you'll use a different product that does.
>>
>> Neil Soiffer
>> Senior Scientist
>> Design Science, Inc.
>> www.dessci.com 
>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation 
>> Editor ~
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Jose Tamayo <jtblas at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> > In the press release below, JAWS is not mentioned at all.  This is

>> > such a significant press release yet a market player such as JAWS

>> > is not even mentioned, any reason?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.
>> >
>> > dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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