[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Tue Nov 15 17:28:38 UTC 2011

I feel that this assumption might not hold up very well in practice.

For that single line, it's alright, as you're below a threshold of 7 or so chunks, namely: 3, bar, 9, bar, and 8; however, if you're
thinking of 3x3 matrices, then I think that there's going to be some serious cognitive load issues to work out.

Furthermore, the bar symbol is not very useful and actually takes up a chunk in the audio domain.

For example, this is just as helpful: 3, 9, 8, and uses much less working memory to parse, and therefore understand, and possibly
even keep in short-term buffers while one goes to the next line.

Just a two cents worth.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the matrix,
I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a matrix
follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate the columns
and the rows without having to space through the characters individually.

This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.

Thanks,
Dick Baldwin

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us> wrote:

> Hello,
> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the punctuation
> level:
> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get you
> into NVDA's settings.
> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and then
> press enter.
> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none, some,
> most, and all.
> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into the
> preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know it yet.
> Hope this helps,
> Greg W.
>
> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of
> all days.
>
>
>
> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Ken,
>>
>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>
>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>
>> How do I make that setting?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dick Baldwin
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>
>>  Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>
>>> ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows. This is
>>> needed so the student will know to use the right and left arrow keys to
>>> step
>>> through the matrix elements. When the down arrow is used to enter the
>>> matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no acknowledgement of the bars (or
>>> semicolons either);
>>>
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I would
>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way seems
>>>> to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page with a 3 by
>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get converted.
>>>>
>>>> <html>
>>>> <body>
>>>>  <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>  <pre>
>>>>  3 | 9 | 8
>>>>  4 | 6 | 5
>>>>  6 | 4 | 8
>>>>      </pre>
>>>> </body>
>>>> </html
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>
>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I could
>>>> style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML tables. That
>>>> should make them accessible to a screen reader and also make them look
>>>> reasonable for the sighted students in the course. Maybe there is a
>>>> unicode character that could be used to create the vertical bars that
>>>> typically appear on printed matrices. If so, I wonder how a screen
>>>> reader would treat those characters.
>>>>
>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The calculator
>>>>> still exists but the newest version is not that accessible. I would
>>>>> just type the matrix out in a text editor and space the columns.
>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row and
>>>>> put it under the other and move things around.  I know that is not
>>>>> pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted folks did it.
>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in my
>>>>> head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I was
>>>>> trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get back to
>>>>> that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on the simple
>>>>> text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to easily see all the
>>>>>
>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used for
>>>>> doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking for is
>>>>> the most accessible display format. For example, MathML can be used
>>>>> to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page. Beautiful,
>>>>> that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes silent when it
>>>>> encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a copy of Jaws, so I
>>>>> don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a way
>>>>> that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and columns
>>>>>> without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the tool to go
>>>>>> for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in game
>>>>>>> and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of matrix
>>>>>>> and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian principles in
>>>>>>> games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even if
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these topics
>>>>>>> (which I
>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard screen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>> 40
>>>>>> gm
>>>>>> ail.com
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>>>>>> ic
>>>>>> kb
>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>> College
>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>> ks
>>>>> oft.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>
>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>> (512) 223-4758
>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>>
>>
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-- 
Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
http://www.DickBaldwin.com

Professor of Computer Information Technology
Austin Community College
(512) 223-4758
mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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