[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Ken Perry kperry at blinksoft.com
Tue Nov 15 17:46:52 UTC 2011 

Agreed on both points.

ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:43 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

I always envissioned the | symbol to separate rws of a matrix rather than
columns. I agree the comma is a better separator within an individual row of
a matrix. I find it distracting to hear the "bar"
word in-between every number in the matrix. Of course it's always a matter
of individual preference.


On 11/15/11, Sina Bahram <sbahram at nc.rr.com> wrote:
> I feel that this assumption might not hold up very well in practice.
>
> For that single line, it's alright, as you're below a threshold of 7 
> or so chunks, namely: 3, bar, 9, bar, and 8; however, if you're 
> thinking of 3x3 matrices, then I think that there's going to be some 
> serious cognitive load issues to work out.
>
> Furthermore, the bar symbol is not very useful and actually takes up a 
> chunk in the audio domain.
>
> For example, this is just as helpful: 3, 9, 8, and uses much less 
> working memory to parse, and therefore understand, and possibly even 
> keep in short-term buffers while one goes to the next line.
>
> Just a two cents worth.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the 
> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a 
> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate 
> the columns and the rows without having to space through the characters
individually.
>
> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>
> Thanks,
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the 
>> punctuation
>> level:
>> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get 
>> you into NVDA's settings.
>> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and 
>> then press enter.
>> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the 
>> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none, 
>> some, most, and all.
>> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into 
>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know it
yet.
>> Hope this helps,
>> Greg W.
>>
>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day 
>> of all days.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>
>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>
>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>
>>>> ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@** 
>>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard 
>>>> Baldwin
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an 
>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows. 
>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left 
>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down arrow 
>>>> is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no 
>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>>>>
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I 
>>>> would
>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way 
>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page 
>>>>> with a 3 by
>>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get converted.
>>>>>
>>>>> <html>
>>>>> <body>
>>>>>  <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>  <pre>
>>>>>  3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>  4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>  6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>      </pre>
>>>>> </body>
>>>>> </html
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org 
>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I 
>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML 
>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and 
>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the 
>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to 
>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed 
>>>>> matrices. If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those
characters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The 
>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that 
>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor and
space the columns.
>>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row 
>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around.  I know that 
>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted folks did
it.
>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in my 
>>>>>> head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I was 
>>>>>> trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get back to 
>>>>>> that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on the simple 
>>>>>> text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to easily see all 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used 
>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking 
>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML 
>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page. 
>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes 
>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a 
>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by 
>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix 
>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a 
>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a 
>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and 
>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the 
>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in 
>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in 
>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of 
>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian 
>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even 
>>>>>>>> if there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these topics 
>>>>>>>> (which I
>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and 
>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most 
>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard 
>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line 
>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community 
>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bald
>>>>>>>> win/> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>> ail.com
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java 
>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community 
>>>>>> College
>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ 
>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials 
>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community 
>>>>> College
>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ 
>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community 
>>>> College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ 
>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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