[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Senk, Mark J. (CDC/NIOSH/NPPTL) zia7 at cdc.gov
Tue Nov 15 18:51:01 UTC 2011 

A good reason for a html table - not just for page layout

M.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:43 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

I have to agree with Sina,

If the matrix could be navigable using standard table navigation (in jaws it's alt+ctrl+arrows), then the user could navigate the table freely - giving the user the ability to evaluate the matrix how they see fit for the solution to the matri'

best,
d

David Engebretson
Support at PeaceWeaverHosting.com - "We know what our name means"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram at nc.rr.com>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices


>I feel that this assumption might not hold up very well in practice.
>
> For that single line, it's alright, as you're below a threshold of 7 or so 
> chunks, namely: 3, bar, 9, bar, and 8; however, if you're
> thinking of 3x3 matrices, then I think that there's going to be some 
> serious cognitive load issues to work out.
>
> Furthermore, the bar symbol is not very useful and actually takes up a 
> chunk in the audio domain.
>
> For example, this is just as helpful: 3, 9, 8, and uses much less working 
> memory to parse, and therefore understand, and possibly
> even keep in short-term buffers while one goes to the next line.
>
> Just a two cents worth.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the 
> matrix,
> I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a matrix
> follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate the columns
> and the rows without having to space through the characters individually.
>
> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>
> Thanks,
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us> 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the punctuation
>> level:
>> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get you
>> into NVDA's settings.
>> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and then
>> press enter.
>> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none, 
>> some,
>> most, and all.
>> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into the
>> preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know it yet.
>> Hope this helps,
>> Greg W.
>>
>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of
>> all days.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>
>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>
>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>
>>>> ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows. This 
>>>> is
>>>> needed so the student will know to use the right and left arrow keys to
>>>> step
>>>> through the matrix elements. When the down arrow is used to enter the
>>>> matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no acknowledgement of the bars (or
>>>> semicolons either);
>>>>
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I would
>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way seems
>>>>> to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page with a 3 by
>>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get converted.
>>>>>
>>>>> <html>
>>>>> <body>
>>>>>  <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>  <pre>
>>>>>  3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>  4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>  6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>      </pre>
>>>>> </body>
>>>>> </html
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I could
>>>>> style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML tables. That
>>>>> should make them accessible to a screen reader and also make them look
>>>>> reasonable for the sighted students in the course. Maybe there is a
>>>>> unicode character that could be used to create the vertical bars that
>>>>> typically appear on printed matrices. If so, I wonder how a screen
>>>>> reader would treat those characters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The calculator
>>>>>> still exists but the newest version is not that accessible. I would
>>>>>> just type the matrix out in a text editor and space the columns.
>>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row and
>>>>>> put it under the other and move things around.  I know that is not
>>>>>> pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted folks did it.
>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in my
>>>>>> head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I was
>>>>>> trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get back to
>>>>>> that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on the simple
>>>>>> text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to easily see all the
>>>>>>
>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used for
>>>>>> doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking for is
>>>>>> the most accessible display format. For example, MathML can be used
>>>>>> to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page. Beautiful,
>>>>>> that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes silent when it
>>>>>> encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a copy of Jaws, so I
>>>>>> don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a way
>>>>>> that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and columns
>>>>>>> without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the tool to go
>>>>>>> for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard 
>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in game
>>>>>>>> and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of matrix
>>>>>>>> and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian principles in
>>>>>>>> games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even if
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these topics
>>>>>>>> (which I
>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard screen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
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>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>> ail.com
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>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>> ic
>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>> College
>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blin>
>>>>>> ks
>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>> kb
>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>> kperry%40blinks<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinks>
>>>>> oft.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> _______________________________________________
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