[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Tue Nov 15 19:01:18 UTC 2011

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-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:45 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

It sounds like there is a lot of support for the use of a table.

But --- seems that there is always a but.

Ultimately, I plan to publish the course notes at
http://cnx.org/content/col11294/latest/

There are advantages and disadvantages to that. One advantage - no
advertisements.

One disadvantage - the required input format. In order to publish there, I
must translate my XHTML into their special flavor of XML, which they refer
to as CNXML. That can be tricky. As much as I would like to have fancy
tables with different color rows, etc., experience has taught me that in
order to translate my XHTML into their CNXML, I need to keep things very
simple.

But --- again, it looks like simple 3x3, 1x3, and 3x1 tables might do the
job very nicely. For sure, they will keep the elements from floating
horizontally and cause the columns to remain lined up very nicely.

Dick Baldwin

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Sina Bahram <sbahram at nc.rr.com> wrote:

> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>
> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have enough
> of that in this field.
>
> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
> right now about this issue.
>
> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so basic.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
>
> I agree except for one problem.  With jaws you can use windows , and
> windows
> . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a way to do
> that
> with either system access or nvda.  My first method allows you to read a
> whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess it depends if you need to
> be able to read a whole row of the numbers.  Maybe you could add this
> feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is not there and I just have not
> found it.
>
> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix fine
> by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with Jaws if you
> have to use tables.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through the
> rows
> using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three values with each
> press of the arrow key.
>
> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix on the
> same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each group of 3
> values represents a row.
>
> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to accommodate
> blind students in the course, I must also make certain that I accommodate
> the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are accustomed to seeing
> matrices written in rows and columns and all of the textbooks present
> matrices in that format. I must use a format that works for both the blind
> students and the sighted students, which is one of the reasons that I like
> this approach. It should work for blind students and it looks nominally
> correct for sighted students. Not ideal for either but adequate for both.
>
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
> > has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
> >
> > Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
> > matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
> > matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
> > the columns and the rows without having to space through the
> > characters individually.
> >
> > This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dick Baldwin
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the
> > > punctuation
> > > level:
> > > 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get
> > > you into NVDA's settings.
> > > 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
> > > 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
> > > then press enter.
> > > 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
> > > punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
> > > 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none,
> > > some, most, and all.
> > > 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
> > > There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
> > > the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
> > > it
> > yet.
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > Greg W.
> > >
> > > Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
> > > of all days.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
> > >
> > >> Ken,
> > >>
> > >> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
> > >>
> > >> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
> > >>
> > >> How do I make that setting?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Dick Baldwin
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
> >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
> > >>>
> > >>> ken
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
> > >>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
> > >>> Baldwin
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
> > >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
> > >>>
> > >>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
> > >>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
> > >>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
> > >>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
> > >>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
> > >>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
> > >>>
> > >>> Dick Baldwin
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
> >  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>  I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
> > >>> would
> > >>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
> > >>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
> > >>>> with a 3 by
> > >>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get
> converted.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <html>
> > >>>> <body>
> > >>>>  <H1>A Matrix</h1>
> > >>>>  <pre>
> > >>>>  3 | 9 | 8
> > >>>>  4 | 6 | 5
> > >>>>  6 | 4 | 8
> > >>>>      </pre>
> > >>>> </body>
> > >>>> </html
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > >>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
> > >>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
> > >>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks Ken,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
> > >>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML
> > >>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
> > >>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
> > >>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
> > >>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
> > >>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> Dick Baldwin
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
> > >>>>  wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
> > >>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The
> > >>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
> > >>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
> > >>>>> and space the
> > columns.
> > >>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row
> > >>>>> and put it under the other and move things around.  I know that
> > >>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted folks
> did it.
> > >>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
> > >>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
> > >>>>> was trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get
> > >>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
> > >>>>> the simple text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to
> > >>>>> easily see all the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> numbers in a row at a time.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Ken
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > >>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
> > >>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
> > >>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Pranav,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
> > >>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
> > >>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
> > >>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
> > >>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
> > >>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
> > >>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web
> page.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
> > >>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
> > >>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
> > >>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
> > >>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>> Dick Baldwin
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
> > >>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Richard,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
> > >>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
> > >>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
> > >>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
> > >>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
> > >>>>>>  wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
> > >>>>>>> the Spring
> > >>>>>>> 2012 semester.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
> > >>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
> > >>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
> > >>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
> > >>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> covers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> code optimization.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
> > >>>>>>> if there
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
> > >>>>>>> topics (which I
> > >>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
> > >>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
> > >>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
> > >>>>>>> screen
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> reader), I
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> need to know that also.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
> > >>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
> > >>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
> > >>>>>>> College
> > >>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
> > >>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
> > >>>>>>> dw in/> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http
> > >>>>>>> :/ /nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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> > >>>>>>> info for
> > >>>>>>> Blindmath:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
> > >>>>>> pranav.lal%
> > >>>>>> 40
> > >>>>>> gm
> > >>>>>> ail.com
> > >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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> > >>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
> > >>>>>> or
> > >>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
> > >>>>>> ic
> > >>>>>> kb
> > >>>>>> aldwin.com
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
> > >>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
> > >>>>> College
> > >>>>> (512) 223-4758
> > >>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
> > >>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
> > >>>>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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> > >>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
> > >>>>> .o
> > >>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
> > >>>>> ks
> > >>>>> oft.co
> > >>>>> m
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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> > >>>>> .o
> > >>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
> > >>>>> kb
> > >>>>> aldwin.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
> > >>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
> > >>>> College
> > >>>> (512) 223-4758
> > >>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
> > >>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
> > >>>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>> Blindmath mailing list
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> > >>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
> > >>>> oft.co
> > >>>> m
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>>> Blindmath mailing list
> > >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://
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> > >>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
> > >>>> aldwin.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> > >>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> > >>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> > >>>
> > >>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
> > >>> College
> > >>> (512) 223-4758
> > >>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > >>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
> > >>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
> > >>> ______________________________**_________________
> > >>> Blindmath mailing list
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> > >>> for
> > >>> Blindmath:
> > >>>
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> > >>> kperry%40blinksoft.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_
> > >>> nf
> > >>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
> > >>> m
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ______________________________**_________________
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> > >>> for
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> > >>>
> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
> > >>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindm
> > >>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > ______________________________**_________________
> > > Blindmath mailing list
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> > > h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >
> > Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
> > (512) 223-4758
> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Blindmath:
> >
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> > oft.co
> > m
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > aldwin.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
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>
>
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> m
>
>
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-- 
Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
http://www.DickBaldwin.com

Professor of Computer Information Technology
Austin Community College
(512) 223-4758
mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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