[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
John Gardner
john.gardner at orst.edu
Tue Nov 15 22:39:19 UTC 2011
Hmmm, it is news to me. I use CTRL-ALT arrows to navigate html tables with
NVDA all the time. I know the NVDA folks are developing richer table
navigation, but this row/column navigation method works perfectly well. I
actually prefer NVDA for this purpose and lots of other web tasks,
particularly filling out forms. It is really stable compared to the other
screen readers.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:51 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
I just confirmed this. NVDA does not currently have row/column reading, but
I'll be requesting this, today.
I'm discussing the matter with some folks on twitter. *glances at previous
statement, and shakes head* never thought I'd say that,
before.
Ken, thanks again for the heads up.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:40 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
No what I mean is a way to read the entire row for example 7 8 9 NVDA
doesn't seem to have that feature as of yet. In jaws they use Microsoft
key , for rows and Microsoft key . for columns It is just an easy way to
read the whole set of numbers and. The cell navigation is a good as well
which it seems all the screen readers handle that.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:30 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
I am not sure what keys you mean.
To navigate by cells in NVDA you use ctrl+alt+<cursors> to move around the
table. Also users of the Mac and voiceover have this sort of navigation.
If you mean a way of defining which order NVDA reads through a table when
doing continuous reading, then there is no option for that. However I would
imagine such a feature would be fairly simple to be added for those who are
familiar with NVDA code.
Michael Whapples
On 15 Nov 2011, at 19:03, Ken Perry wrote:
> I agree with you in essence but when your designing something for a
> class it would be nice if the students who can not afford jaws can
> still get good access like I said I hope I am missing the keys for
> NVDA but I haven't found them yet.
>
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:35 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>
> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have
> enough of that in this field.
>
> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
> right now about this issue.
>
> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so basic.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
>
> I agree except for one problem. With jaws you can use windows , and
> windows . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a
> way to do that with either system access or nvda. My first method
> allows you to read a whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess
> it depends if you need to be able to read a whole row of the numbers.
> Maybe you could add this feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is
> not there and I just have not found it.
>
> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix
> fine by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with
> Jaws if you have to use tables.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through
> the rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three
> values with each press of the arrow key.
>
> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix
> on the same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each
> group of 3 values represents a row.
>
> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to
> accommodate blind students in the course, I must also make certain
> that I accommodate the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are
> accustomed to seeing matrices written in rows and columns and all of
> the textbooks present matrices in that format. I must use a format
> that works for both the blind students and the sighted students, which
> is one of the reasons that I like this approach. It should work for
> blind students and it looks nominally correct for sighted students. Not
ideal for either but adequate for both.
>
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
>> has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
>> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
>> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
>> the columns and the rows without having to space through the
>> characters individually.
>>
>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dick Baldwin
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment. To change the
>>> punctuation
>>> level:
>>> 1. From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n. This will get
>>> you into NVDA's settings.
>>> 2. Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>>> 3. Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>>> then press enter.
>>> 4. Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>>> punctuation option. This will be a combo box.
>>> 5. Arrow up and down through the choices. I believe they are none,
>>> some, most, and all.
>>> 6. Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
>>> it
>> yet.
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Greg W.
>>>
>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>>> of all days.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken,
>>>>
>>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>>
>>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>>
>>>>> ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>>>>> Baldwin
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>
>>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
>>>>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>>>>> would
>>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>>>>>> with a 3 by
>>>>>> 3 matrix. It has the bars because<pre> elements don't get
> converted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <html>
>>>>>> <body>
>>>>>> <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>> <pre>
>>>>>> 3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>> 4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>> 6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>> </pre>
>>>>>> </body>
>>>>>> </html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre> and put them in XHTML
>>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
>>>>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore. The
>>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
>>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
>>>>>>> and space the
>> columns.
>>>>>>> That way when I wanted two add two rows I would block one row
>>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around. I know that
>>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted
>>>>>>> folks
> did it.
>>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
>>>>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
>>>>>>> was trying to solve them. It would take a bit of work to get
>>>>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
>>>>>>> the simple text editor it sometimes is nice to be able to
>>>>>>> easily see all the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
>>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
>>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
>>>>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
>>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
>>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
>>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
>>>>>>>>> if there
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
>>>>>>>>> topics (which I
>>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
>>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
>>>>>>>>> dw in/> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http
>>>>>>>>> :/ /nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
>>>>>>>> ic
>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
>>>>>>> ks
>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>> College
>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>> nf bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>>> kperry%40blinks<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>> College
>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>> nf
>>>>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>> h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>
>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>> (512) 223-4758
>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> _______________________________________________
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