[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Wed Nov 16 00:48:52 UTC 2011

John,

Orca does have the ability to toggle "read table rows by row" or "read 
table rows by cell" off and on... I generally leave it on read by row, 
but I find I can still then arrow through the cells in a row, on most 
aplications. I haven't tried using this on HTML pages, so can't say for 
sure if it would work the same. It is a feature I find pretty 
convenient, though. /smile/

I wonder if NVDA could add something like that?

Tami

On 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, John Gardner wrote:
> Yes, but Ken is right, that NVDA does not read the full line when
> down-arrowing.  know.  In fact I cannot think of any screen reader that does
> that in either html or Word tables.  They once did, but they have been
> "improved".
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:42 PM
> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; 'Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> That's cell navigation, no? in other words, that read 2, 5, 8 if you were
> navigating down a keypad, instead of reading, 1,2,3:
> 4,5,6: 7,8,9.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John Gardner
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> Hmmm, it is news to me.  I use CTRL-ALT arrows to navigate html tables with
> NVDA all the time.  I know the NVDA folks are developing richer table
> navigation, but this row/column navigation method works perfectly well.  I
> actually prefer NVDA for this purpose and lots of other web tasks,
> particularly filling out forms.  It is really stable compared to the other
> screen readers.
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:51 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> I just confirmed this. NVDA does not currently have row/column reading, but
> I'll be requesting this, today.
>
> I'm discussing the matter with some folks on twitter. *glances at previous
> statement, and shakes head* never thought I'd say that,
> before.
>
> Ken, thanks again for the heads up.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:40 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
>
> No what I mean is a way to read the entire row for example 7 8 9 NVDA
> doesn't seem to have that feature  as of yet.  In jaws they use Microsoft
> key , for rows and Microsoft key . for columns  It is just an easy way to
> read the whole set of numbers and.  The cell navigation is a good as well
> which it seems all the screen readers handle that.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:30 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> I am not sure what keys you mean.
>
> To navigate by cells in NVDA you use ctrl+alt+<cursors>  to move around the
> table. Also users of the Mac and voiceover have this sort of navigation.
>
> If you mean a way of defining which order NVDA reads through a table when
> doing continuous reading, then there is no option for that. However I would
> imagine such a feature would be fairly simple to be added for those who are
> familiar with NVDA code.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 15 Nov 2011, at 19:03, Ken Perry wrote:
>
>> I agree with you in essence but when your designing something for a
>> class it would be nice if the students who can not afford jaws can
>> still get good access like I said I hope I am missing the keys for
>> NVDA but I haven't found them yet.
>>
>> Ken
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:35 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>>
>> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have
>> enough of that in this field.
>>
>> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
>> right now about this issue.
>>
>> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so basic.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>>
>> I agree except for one problem.  With jaws you can use windows , and
>> windows . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a
>> way to do that with either system access or nvda.  My first method
>> allows you to read a whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess
>> it depends if you need to be able to read a whole row of the numbers.
>> Maybe you could add this feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is
>> not there and I just have not found it.
>>
>> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix
>> fine by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with
>> Jaws if you have to use tables.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through
>> the rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three
>> values with each press of the arrow key.
>>
>> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix
>> on the same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each
>> group of 3 values represents a row.
>>
>> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to
>> accommodate blind students in the course, I must also make certain
>> that I accommodate the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are
>> accustomed to seeing matrices written in rows and columns and all of
>> the textbooks present matrices in that format. I must use a format
>> that works for both the blind students and the sighted students, which
>> is one of the reasons that I like this approach. It should work for
>> blind students and it looks nominally correct for sighted students. Not
> ideal for either but adequate for both.
>>
>> Dick Baldwin
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
>>> has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
>>> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
>>> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
>>> the columns and the rows without having to space through the
>>> characters individually.
>>>
>>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf<icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the
>>>> punctuation
>>>> level:
>>>> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get
>>>> you into NVDA's settings.
>>>> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>>>> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>>>> then press enter.
>>>> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>>>> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>>>> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none,
>>>> some, most, and all.
>>>> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>>>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>>>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
>>>> it
>>> yet.
>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>> Greg W.
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>>>> of all days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>>>>> nfbnet.org<blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>>>>>> Baldwin
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>>>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>>>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
>>>>>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>>>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>>>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>>>>>>> with a 3 by
>>>>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>   elements don't get
>> converted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <html>
>>>>>>> <body>
>>>>>>> <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>>> <pre>
>>>>>>> 3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>>> 4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>>> 6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>>>      </pre>
>>>>>>> </body>
>>>>>>> </html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>>>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>   and put them in XHTML
>>>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>>>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>>>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>>>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
>>>>>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The
>>>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
>>>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
>>>>>>>> and space the
>>> columns.
>>>>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row
>>>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around.  I know that
>>>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted
>>>>>>>> folks
>> did it.
>>>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
>>>>>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
>>>>>>>> was trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get
>>>>>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
>>>>>>>> the simple text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to
>>>>>>>> easily see all the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>>>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>>>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
>>>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
>>>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>>>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>>>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>>>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
>>>>>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>>>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>>>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>>>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
>>>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
>>>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
>>>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
>>>>>>>>>> if there
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
>>>>>>>>>> topics (which I
>>>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
>>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
>>>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
>>>>>>>>>> dw in/>  ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http
>>>>>>>>>> :/ /nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:
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>>>>>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
>>>>>>>>> ic
>>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
>>>>>>>> ks
>>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>> kperry%40blinks<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>> College
>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> fb net.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>> Blindmath:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> kperry%40blinksoft.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_
>>>>>> nf
>>>>>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindm
>>>>>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>> h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>
>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>> (512) 223-4758
>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>> m
>>>
>>>
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>>> b
>>> aldwin.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>
>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>> (512) 223-4758
>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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