[Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI

Michael Whapples mwhapples at aim.com
Fri Feb 24 00:52:15 UTC 2012 

That is possibly where the mess of Java kicks in. Mess as the JVM, the Java platform/library and the Java language are all mixed together in most people's terminology.

Take the Scala (http://www.scala-lang.org) as an example. It is built on the JVM and the Java platform/standard library, but you are not programming in "Java". SWT is almost the reverse case, hence you are programming in Java.

Michael Whapples
On 24 Feb 2012, at 00:31, Richard Baldwin wrote:

> Not trying to be contrary, but here is a direct quotation from the very top
> of the page at http://www.eclipse.org/swt/
> 
> "SWT is an open source <http://www.eclipse.org/legal/> widget toolkit for
> Java designed to provide efficient, portable access to the user-interface
> facilities of the operating systems on which it is implemented."
> 
> No mention of the "Eclipse Rich Client Platform (Eclipse RCP)" there --
> just Java.
> 
> If they had stopped at the level of "user-interface facilities," I would
> have nothing to complain about and might even be happy with the product.
> However, they didn't stop at that level and they succeeded in rendering
> most existing Java graphics libraries unusable (from a practical
> standpoint) in applications that use the SWT user interface by replacing
> key Java classes, such as Image, Canvas, and numerous others with their own
> incompatible versions of those classes.
> 
> Sorry, but those are simply the facts. My guess is that the requirement to
> use the SWT for accessibility will deter many very capable Java programmers
> from making software contributions to the needs of the blind.
> 
> Dick Baldwin
> 
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:
> 
>> I guess IBM/Eclipse project did give it a different name, its part of the
>> Eclipse Rich Client Platform (Eclipse RCP).
>> 
>> Michael Whapples
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Baldwin
>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:13 PM
>> 
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>> 
>> Michael has provided the answer to your question about the JAB.
>> 
>> I can create workarounds.
>> 
>> I can write complex code to make things work that don't fit together like
>> they should.
>> 
>> I can modify the code in textbooks to make it compatible with the SWT.
>> 
>> I can modify the code in existing libraries to make them compatible with
>> the SWT if the source code is available (which is what I am now being
>> forced to do to provide GUI accessibity).
>> 
>> However, the great promise of Java is the ability to use class libraries
>> written using standard Java libraries without a requirement to modify those
>> libraries. IBM and SWT have succeeded in breaking that promise. Therefore,
>> IBM should have named their new product IBMJava (or maybe Java#) to make it
>> clear that it is not Java. Once a naive programmer starts down the SWT
>> route, thinking that she is programming in Java, she has just excluded most
>> of the promise of Java from her programming product.
>> 
>> Being essentially incompatible with the JFrame class, the standard Image
>> class, and the standard Canvas class, to name just a few, IBM and SWT have
>> made it impossible to use most existing Java graphics libraries without
>> modification. The IBM versions of those classes aren't better, they are
>> simply different and incompatible with standard Java. And the SWT graphics
>> capability is, in my opinion, inferior to the Sun Graphic2D class.
>> 
>> That might be a good product strategy for IBM, but it is definitely not
>> good for the majority of Java programmers.
>> 
>> Dick Baldwin
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Regarding your question on how good or bad is the JAB. Personally I like
>>> the concept of the JAB from a development view, one full accessibility API
>>> across all platforms, rather than one which maps to the native ones and so
>>> has to cope with the differences of different platforms.
>>> 
>>> However in practice as a user things seem to be simpler for SWT than Java
>>> swing and JAB. I had some trouble getting the JAB working on a windows 7
>>> 64-bit system, not sure precisely what the issue was but the JAB only
>>> seemed to start working once I installed the 32-bit JVM, previously I only
>>> had the 64-bit JVM installed. If the JAB does require the 32-bit JVM as
>>> well as the 64-bit JVM then all I can say is this fact is not documented
>>> anywhere. Even once the JAB is working the quality of accessibility can
>>> differ between platforms, Linux I probably would give the best rating, on
>>> windows you can even notice some issues with relatively simple
>>> applications
>>> such as MathTrax and on the Mac there are definitely issues (eg. the file
>>> dialog for things like opening and saving files has issues on the Mac).
>>> 
>>> In comparison SWT applications and certainly more sizable ones such as
>>> eclipse tend to just work straight out of the box. This is not to say
>>> their
>>> always perfect but eclipse is mostly accessible and certainly most of its
>>> functionality can be used by a blind user.
>>> 
>>> Regarding your comment on reuse, may be accessibility is an example of
>>> what you say. By reusing the native OS controls SWT picks up the
>>> accessibility of those and the screen readers need not support another
>>> accessibility API as they do for swing.
>>> 
>>> I think though Richard's comments on reuse related more to do with non-UI
>>> parts of eclipse RCP/SWT and how they just don't work with normal standard
>>> JDK implementations. I think image objects were an example of this. May be
>>> there is advantages to the Eclipse project versions not found in the
>>> standard JDK classes.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn MacLeod
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:04 AM
>>> 
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>> 
>>> Hi again.
>>> 
>>> Sorry to take so long to reply.
>>> 
>>> JFrame is not an embeddable component, so SWT (or any other embeddor)
>>> can't embed JFrames.
>>> SWT_AWT.new_Frame() returns a subclass of EmbeddedFrame, which is a
>>> sibling of JFrame but it does not have a root pane.
>>> JApplet is embeddable and it has a root pane. Can you make do with a
>>> JApplet instead of a JFrame?
>>> 
>>> I wrote another snippet for you (attached) that takes the root pane out of
>>> a JFrame and sets it into a JApplet in an SWT GUI.
>>> Hopefully you could do something similar with a JFrame from your
>>> textbook's sample code.
>>> But this won't solve the whole problem, because the Swing controls from
>>> the JFrame still won't be accessible unless you have the JAB installed and
>>> use an AT that works with it.
>>> (Question for you: Are Swing controls really that inaccessible? Is the JAB
>>> hard to install? Don't AT usually work once the JAB is installed? I don't
>>> know because I don't use Swing.)
>>> 
>>> Regarding event integration, this article might be helpful:
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/****articles/Article-Swing-SWT-**<http://www.eclipse.org/**articles/Article-Swing-SWT-**>
>>> Integration/index.html<http://**www.eclipse.org/articles/**
>>> Article-Swing-SWT-Integration/**index.html<http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Swing-SWT-Integration/index.html>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The rule of thumb is to use SwingUtilities.invokeLater() and
>>> Display.asyncExec() to pass work from AWT/Swing to SWT and vice-versa.
>>> This article also discusses the tab traversal "glitch" that I tripped over
>>> in the snippet I sent you earlier, and they show how to fix it in their
>>> example code.
>>> 
>>> I really do believe in the OOP concept of "reuse, don't reinvent,"
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So do we, which is why we reused the OS controls instead of drawing our
>>> own.  :)
>>> We did talk about this with Sun in the beginning, but unfortunately it
>>> didn't work out.
>>> 
>>> Also, I happened to trip over these other two snippets that manipulate
>>> BufferedImage and JAI TiledImage from within SWT.
>>> I am including them here in case they are helpful:
>>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/****show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13>
>>> <h**ttps://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13>
>>>> 
>>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/****show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14>
>>> <h**ttps://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Carolyn
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From:
>>> Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>
>>> To:
>>> Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>> 
>>> Date:
>>> 01/31/2012 01:30 PM
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>> Sent by:
>>> blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks for responding to my concerns. I will definitely take a look at
>>> your
>>> workabound and see how much it helps. Hopefully, I will be pleased with
>>> the
>>> results.
>>> 
>>> I suspect, however, that simply providing compatibility at the AWT Canvas
>>> level won't help much with my main concern. I already knew of one way to
>>> do
>>> that. I also already knew how to embed AWT Frame objects in an SWT object.
>>> Unfortunately, I don't know how to easily integrate events fired by those
>>> AWT components into the SWT event handling system and I don't know how to
>>> embed Swing JFrame objects and/or their events in SWT objects.
>>> 
>>> I know how to write new code that will play reasonably well with SWT. That
>>> isn't my main concern. I really do believe in the OOP concept of "reuse,
>>> don't reinvent," and my main concern is the lack of compatibility of SWT
>>> with existing unmodified graphics libraries, which typically produce
>>> graphic outputs in Swing JFrame objects. Until we can successfully embed
>>> JFrame objects in SWT objects, and until we can easily integrate the event
>>> handling mechanisms of the two systems, the use of those libraries without
>>> modification of the libraries will probably be very difficult at best and
>>> off limits at worst.
>>> 
>>> Hopefully someone will prove me wrong on this.
>>> 
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Carolyn MacLeod <
>>> Carolyn_MacLeod at ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank-you, Michael!
>>> 
>>>> Carolyn
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From:
>>>> "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>>> To:
>>>> "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date:
>>>> 31/01/2012 11:30 AM
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>> Sent by:
>>>> blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Thanks for taking the time to do this. I know you have asked questions
>>>> 
>>>> on
>>> 
>>> the orca-list about improving accessibility in SWT and eclipse and its
>>>> certainly appreciated. In my oppinion SWT is one of the few, if not the
>>>> best, GUI toolkits for making accessible applications which are also
>>>> cross-platform.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> 
>>>> Michael whapples
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carolyn MacLeod
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:09 PM
>>>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>> 
>>>> Hello, list.
>>>> 
>>>> My name is Carolyn and I am on the Eclipse SWT Team.
>>>> I am the developer responsible for SWT Accessibility.
>>>> 
>>>> Ken Perry of Blinksoft asked me if I could help with an issue brought up
>>>> by Richard Baldwin regarding SWT being accessible but largely
>>>> 
>>>> incompatible
>>> 
>>> with Swing/AWT.
>>>> I read several posts similar to this one:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://host.nfbnet.org/****pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.**<http://host.nfbnet.org/**pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.**>
>>>> 
>>> org/2012-January/004693.html<h**ttp://host.nfbnet.org/**
>>> pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.**org/2012-January/004693.html<http://host.nfbnet.org/pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.org/2012-January/004693.html>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I wrote an SWT Snippet that I hope you will find useful:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://git.eclipse.org/c/****platform/eclipse.platform.swt.****<http://git.eclipse.org/c/**platform/eclipse.platform.swt.**>
>>>> 
>>> git/tree/examples/org.eclipse.****swt.snippets/src/org/**eclipse/**
>>> swt/snippets/Snippet361.java<h**ttp://git.eclipse.org/c/**
>>> platform/eclipse.platform.swt.**git/tree/examples/org.eclipse.**
>>> swt.snippets/src/org/eclipse/**swt/snippets/Snippet361.java<http://git.eclipse.org/c/platform/eclipse.platform.swt.git/tree/examples/org.eclipse.swt.snippets/src/org/eclipse/swt/snippets/Snippet361.java>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It shows how to host an AWT Canvas inside an SWT GUI, and use the GUI to
>>>> initiate Java2D operations within the Canvas.
>>>> I randomly chose rotation and translation of the image, but you should
>>>> 
>>>> be
>>> 
>>> able to modify the snippet to do whatever Java2D operations you are
>>>> teaching.
>>>> The "Print Image" button uses SWT to take a screen snapshot of the
>>>> 
>>>> Canvas
>>> 
>>> and print it to a printer.
>>>> I had not heard of a printer that embosses images before, and I think
>>>> 
>>>> that
>>> 
>>> is really cool!
>>>> 
>>>> I tried this snippet on Windows (XP) with JAWS (13) and on Mac OSX
>>>> (Leopard) with VoiceOver, and on Linux (Ubuntu 10.04) with Orca and it
>>>> worked on all 3 platforms.
>>>> It should work with other platform versions and screen readers as well.
>>>> The only glitch I encountered was on Windows, if the user tabs into the
>>>> Canvas, they can't tab back out.
>>>> They need to use the button mnemonics to traverse out of the Canvas:
>>>> 
>>>> alt+o
>>> 
>>> for Open, alt+x and alt+y for translating X and Y, alt+r for Rotate, and
>>>> alt+p for Print.
>>>> This was not an issue on Mac or Linux.
>>>> 
>>>> I cannot solve the deeper issues, like making SWT and AWT graphics
>>>> interchangeable without performance penalties (there are technical
>>>> issues),
>>>> or improving SWT's graphics support to the level of Java2D or more (we
>>>> 
>>>> are
>>> 
>>> a very small and very busy team, and we simply do not have the
>>>> 
>>>> manpower).
>>> 
>>> Hopefully this snippet will give you a work-around that is both
>>>> 
>>>> accessible
>>> 
>>> and teaches the math you want to teach.
>>>> 
>>>> Carolyn
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>>> 
>>> --
>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>> 
>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology
>>> Austin Community College
>>> (512) 223-4758
>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>> http://www.austincc.edu/****baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/><
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>> 
>> --
>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> 
>> Professor of Computer Information Technology
>> Austin Community College
>> (512) 223-4758
>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> 
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
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