[Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI

Keith Creasy keith537 at iglou.com
Sun Feb 26 20:05:00 UTC 2012 

They answer to why they, that is all of them, are including accessibility is 
because they want government contracts and, to a much lesser extent, 
because businesses want blind customers to be able to buy their products and 
services. In other words it's all driven by money.

I admit I'm no longer an Apple fan, not because of their machines or 
accessibility but because I find their business model; i.e. the 30% cut on 
all transactions and a business built on that and patent trolling and 
litigation, to be overly greedy.

I use an IPhone and like it, it's the best phone I've ever had. Mac 
computers don't do much for me though. I guess we're getting pretty far off 
topic. Maybe we can continue this discussion over a beer sometime. :)

Keith


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI


> Oh yes, its marketting all right on both Oracle's and Apple's 
> accessibility pages, my point was more to do with who are they targetting, 
> what do they need to do to satisfy the different customers. Another 
> question is, for whose benefit is the accessibility there? If its for 
> legal reasons then its unlikely its their for the disabled person's 
> benefit (IE. the customer is interested in not being fined for not meeting 
> the legal requirements). If its for the disabled person's benefit then the 
> only way the accessibility serves its purpose is to make the product 
> usable (IE. anything less is just a waste of resources).
>
> As a side note: You seem to not particularly like Apple stuff, don't know 
> why and won't go into it. I personally quite like, to the point of 
> preferring, using Apple products for some tasks, yes may be even enjoy. I 
> still have a few gripes with Apple, probably the most noticable one would 
> be the lack of interest/willingness by Apple to make tables in word 
> processing documents accessible (I asked them about supporting tables with 
> voiceover in iworks and textedit to get the response that iworks is not on 
> the voiceover list of supported applications, I replied pointing out 
> textedit is but got no further response). I feel tables in word processing 
> is so core that this alone could restrict my ability to recommend the Mac 
> to a blind user.
>
> Michael Whapples
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Keith Creasy
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:58 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>
> Heh, I think the difference is mostly that Apple is expert in marketting 
> and
> just makes it sound as benevolent as possible.
>
> It's sort of like a commercial I hear during basketball games here in
> Louisville, the local utility says, "...and we hope things like an 
> automated
> phone system, outage maps, and paperless billing make life a little 
> easier."
> Of course, anyone who understands these things know they are doing it to
> save on HR costs by letting the customers do the work rather than one of
> their employees. This is commonly called "spin". :)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>
>
>>I would say using legal force does not always lead to something 
>>satisfactory anyway, as the company isn't necessarily on side and so 
>>employs hoop jumping so as to do only that required. If they aren't 
>>concerned by how it is to use then you may end up with something which is 
>>technically accessible but potentially useless for practical use.
>>
>> An example, not sure if its quite caused by what I describe above but 
>> still an example of where something may technically be accessible but 
>> difficult to use by a disabled user. I remember hearing about an online 
>> library of ebooks and that one such service while you could use keyboard 
>> navigation to get access to the ebooks it took well over 100 keypresses 
>> to get to the book.
>>
>> Surely what really is wanted is a good user experience. Reading the 
>> accessibility statements by different developers can be interesting to 
>> see where they seem to put the emphasis. To give an example Oracle (as 
>> they are under discussion here) site legal first, followed by business 
>> and then ethical reasons (source http://www.oracle.com/accessibility), 
>> nowhere do they say they want everyone who uses their software to have a 
>> good user experience. In contrast, Apple on 
>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility never refer to legal or business 
>> reasons but rather use the phrase "allowing them to access and enjoy" to 
>> describe how disabled people should experience using Apple products.
>>
>> May be the above difference in approach is due to the difference in 
>> customers and users, in Oracle's case the disabled user is unlikely to be 
>> the customer as Oracle are selling to businesses and the users are the 
>> employees or customers of the business, but in Apple's case many more of 
>> the users are also the customers (eg. me or you are more likely to buy an 
>> iPhone, iPod, Mac, etc for ourselves than we would buy an Oracle 
>> product).
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Richard Baldwin
>> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:35 PM
>> To: BlindMath Mailing List ; accessibleimage at freelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>
>> While it may be possible to force the large corporations to adhere to
>> accessibility standards through threatened legal action, a large portion 
>> of
>> the really useful software these days is developed and provided for free
>> (or for a nominal charge) by independent programmers like myself who
>> develop the software and give it away for free. Threaten these developers
>> with legal action, and they will simply stop giving away good software.
>>
>> It is probably unrealistic to believe that anyone can create software
>> development tools that will force independent software developers to
>> produce accessible apps. Take for example, the DTD for XHTML 1.0
>> Transitional. To be valid, an XHTML document must provide an "alt" field
>> for every image. However, there is no way to require the author of the
>> document to make the contents of the field meaningful. The easiest thing 
>> to
>> do is to simply enter an empty string in the field. In other words, hit
>> quote quote Enter on the alt field and the requirement is satisfied. I
>> myself am guilty of having entered the string "Missing image" -- probably
>> thousands of times given the number of documents containing images that I
>> have published. While that satisfies the requirement, and is a little
>> better than an empty string, it does little for accessibility.
>>
>> And by the way, let's not forget that largely inaccessible software is
>> still being sold or provided for free within the blind community by
>> companies whose existence depends on the blind community.
>>
>> While I don't have an answer to the problem of inaccessible software, it 
>> is
>> clear that at least two factors will be required to cause a large
>> percentage of software that is provided by independent developers to be
>> accessible:
>>
>> 1. Persuasion
>> 2. Ease of development
>>
>> Persuasion - Independent developers of the sort who populate SourceForge
>> with free software and who sell cheap apps on the iPhone and Android
>> platforms aren't likely to be influenced in a positive way by threatened
>> legal action. Those developers are more likely to be influenced through
>> persuasion. Again, threaten them and they will simply find other ways to
>> spend their time.
>>
>> Ease of development - Before there will be any large-scale migration 
>> toward
>> accessibility among independent developers, tools that create accessible
>> software must be no more difficult to use and must require no more time 
>> and
>> effort to use than the alternative tools that don't produce accessible
>> software.
>>
>> There are many very capable blind programmers in the world. Perhaps those
>> programmers should devote their efforts to the development of tools that
>> will cause sighted independent programmers to be happy to make their free
>> software accessible. At this point in history, such software doesn't 
>> exist,
>> at least not in the Java world with which I am most familiar.
>>
>> Dick Baldwin
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM, John Gardner 
>> <john.gardner at orst.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> The iPhone is an excellent example of my point.  I have an iPhone and 
>>> admit
>>> that
>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of adding accessibility where it didn't
>>> exist before.  Unfortunately very few app vendors have followed suit.
>>> Better original design could have made accessible app programming more 
>>> or
>>> less automatic.  Now I have to rely on the good will of app makers and 
>>> most
>>> don't even seem to know about accessibility.
>>> John Gardner
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Keith Creasy
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 4:05 AM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>
>>> I'm there if there's anything I can do to help get accessibility right 
>>> in
>>> SWT or JavaFX. While it is sad that accessibility historically gets put 
>>> in
>>> as an afterthought it's even sadder that in every one of the cases you 
>>> cite
>>> that it has generally been done badly or incompletely. Ken and I both 
>>> have
>>> recent experience with the very bad accessibility framework in Android.
>>> They
>>> may get it right eventually. Apple has done somewhat better but the
>>> experience is still what I would term as tedious, especially on Mac OS.
>>> It's
>>> getting better but only slowly. Microsoft, well they were first to make
>>> accessibility a part of the UI but dropped the ball at some point and 
>>> are
>>> now playing catch up. Gnome? Great ideas but the reality has fallen far
>>> short of the vision.
>>>
>>> Every one of the efforts mentioned has included some excellent ideas and 
>>> it
>>> should be possible now to use them and get it right at last. There are a
>>> lot
>>> of great blind programmers out there and some very savvy users. I'd
>>> encourage Oracle and others in the Java community to enlist some of them
>>> and
>>> invest in making the vision a reality.
>>>
>>> One principle, and this is very important, is that efforts need to 
>>> continue
>>> to make it more trouble for application developers to leave out
>>> accessibility features than to include them. I'm not sure exactly how to
>>> make this happen above what's already been tried but again, it is 
>>> important
>>> because it is the usability of the apps and not the accessibility 
>>> features
>>> of the tool kit that is key.
>>>
>>> Off my soap box now. :)
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>>
>>> We need to be grateful that the effort is made at all and do what we can 
>>> to
>>> encourage it to be done sooner in the development process and that it be
>>> done right. One key aspect, and I don't know exactly how to do this, is
>>> that
>>> developers of UI tool kits need to make it more beneficial for 
>>> application
>>> developers to use the accessibility services than it is to work around
>>> them.
>>> Not a new thought I know but so far it seems like apps still come out 
>>> with
>>> UI's that somehow circumvent accessibility features.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:32 PM
>>> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; 'Blind Math list for those interested in
>>> mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>
>>> Well while I agree with you on one hand I have to point out IPhones did 
>>> not
>>> have accessibility till version IOS 3 and people seem to forget that 
>>> when
>>> they scream about Android and Windows phones.  They seem to forget that 
>>> Mac
>>> operating system didn't build in access till version 10 pretty much.  So
>>> Let's dial back the rederict that it can't be built in and work with 
>>> them
>>> to
>>> make sure it is built in right.  I feel your pain but I also understand
>>> that
>>> the market doesn't always allow what we want to happen.  Even if better
>>> planning would make this all easier for everyone.
>>>
>>> Note that we are in a new age where companies are starting to understand
>>> that usability and accessibility makes their products better.  Maybe it
>>> takes a couple of versions to get there but that is a far cry from how 
>>> long
>>> it has taken in the past.  We are getting to the point that new software
>>> comes out and it's just accessible that's great and it should be cheered 
>>> on
>>> but maybe we need to work more with these companies than to set them to 
>>> the
>>> torch.
>>>
>>> Just my dime.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of John Gardner
>>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 12:25 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>
>>> So JavaFX plans to "add accessibility" in version 3.  You can tell the
>>> developers from me that there is no such thing as "adding 
>>> accessibility".
>>> Others have tried and failed.  Take PDF for example.  Either software is
>>> developed to be accessible or it isn't.  This is just an insult, and 
>>> Oracle
>>> should be punished severely.  Maybe they are not aware that both the 
>>> public
>>> and the lawyers are now insisting that new electronic
>>> information/softwaredevelopments be made accessible "if feasible".  Well 
>>> it
>>> is feasible.
>>>
>>> Do I sound angry?
>>>
>>> John Gardner
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Carolyn MacLeod
>>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:28 AM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>>
>>> We created SWT because, at the time, Swing was years away from being
>>> production-quality, and we needed to ship product.
>>> I tripped over this 2002 post recently. It summarizes the climate of the
>>> time:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org/msg00355.html
>>> (I do not know who the "undisclosed source close to IBM" is, but much of
>>> what he says seems accurate).
>>> Please, I am not dredging up the past here to be inflammatory, merely to
>>> help explain why there are things that I cannot fix.
>>>
>>> On the plus side, the designer of SWT is now working at Oracle, so 
>>> future
>>> interop will improve.
>>> However, the improvements won't be in AWT/Swing - they will be in 
>>> JavaFX.
>>> Oracle recommends that, moving forward, people use JavaFX to build Java
>>> GUIs.
>>> The good news is that JavaFX is new, current, designed for both desktop 
>>> and
>>> browser, has cool graphics, a whole bunch of groovy new controls, and 
>>> all
>>> controls can be css styled.
>>> The bad news is that JavaFX is a whole new widget set, with its own 
>>> event
>>> model, layouts, and graphics system, and because it is new, some things 
>>> are
>>> not yet implemented, like Mac and Linux support (coming in FX 2.1 and 
>>> 2.2),
>>> and accessibility (promised in FX 3.0, which is currently due to ship
>>> sometime around 2013Q4, if I am reading the roadmap correctly).
>>> AWT/Swing have interop with JavaFX, but they are effectively deprecated,
>>> and
>>> the problems inherent in the Swing threading model make interop
>>> complicated.
>>> SWT and JavaFX both use the same threading model, and apparently SWT 
>>> embeds
>>> nicely in JavaFX and vice-versa.
>>>
>>> So I think JavaFX might be the way you want to go, but it will be some 
>>> time
>>> before it is fully accessible (I believe) because JavaFX controls are
>>> custom
>>> drawn, and all of the accessibility will need to be implemented from
>>> scratch. I hope that they will fully integrate accessibility into JavaFX
>>> and
>>> ship it with the JDK... they have surely taken some lessons from the 
>>> Swing
>>> accessibility problems regarding the difficulty of installing the JAB.
>>>
>>> Here are some links:
>>> 1. The JavaFX main page: http://javafx.com/ 2. The JavaFX API Reference:
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/api/index.html
>>> 3. An overview of the FX Controls:
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/ui_controls/overview.htm
>>> 4. A "Visual Effects" tutorial:
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/visual_effects/jfxpub-visual_effects.htm
>>> 5. A Transformations tutorial:
>>>
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/transformations/jfxpub-transformations.htm
>>> 6. Oracle's recommendation regarding AWT/Swing:
>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/overview/faq-1446554.html#6
>>> 7. Accessibility is not yet in JavaFX:
>>> https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=10167036&#10167036
>>> 8. The roadmap for JavaFX, including a statement about accessibility
>>> support:
>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/overview/roadmap-1446331.html
>>> (I notice that they don't mention Linux accessibility on the roadmap. I
>>> hope
>>> that was just an accidental omission.) 9. JavaFX and SWT 
>>> interoperability:
>>>
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/swt_interoperability/jfxpub-swt_interopera
>>> bility.htm<http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2.0/swt_interoperability/jfxpub-swt_interoperability.htm>
>>> 10. An example of folks trying to convert AWT images to FX images, FYI:
>>> https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=2236566
>>>
>>> Hope this is helpful,
>>> Carolyn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
>>> Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>
>>> To:
>>> Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date:
>>> 23/02/2012 01:18 PM
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI Sent by:
>>> blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael has provided the answer to your question about the JAB.
>>>
>>> I can create workarounds.
>>>
>>> I can write complex code to make things work that don't fit together 
>>> like
>>> they should.
>>>
>>> I can modify the code in textbooks to make it compatible with the SWT.
>>>
>>> I can modify the code in existing libraries to make them compatible with
>>> the
>>> SWT if the source code is available (which is what I am now being forced 
>>> to
>>> do to provide GUI accessibity).
>>>
>>> However, the great promise of Java is the ability to use class libraries
>>> written using standard Java libraries without a requirement to modify 
>>> those
>>> libraries. IBM and SWT have succeeded in breaking that promise. 
>>> Therefore,
>>> IBM should have named their new product IBMJava (or maybe Java#) to make 
>>> it
>>> clear that it is not Java. Once a naive programmer starts down the SWT
>>> route, thinking that she is programming in Java, she has just excluded 
>>> most
>>> of the promise of Java from her programming product.
>>>
>>> Being essentially incompatible with the JFrame class, the standard Image
>>> class, and the standard Canvas class, to name just a few, IBM and SWT 
>>> have
>>> made it impossible to use most existing Java graphics libraries without
>>> modification. The IBM versions of those classes aren't better, they are
>>> simply different and incompatible with standard Java. And the SWT 
>>> graphics
>>> capability is, in my opinion, inferior to the Sun Graphic2D class.
>>>
>>> That might be a good product strategy for IBM, but it is definitely not
>>> good
>>> for the majority of Java programmers.
>>>
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Regarding your question on how good or bad is the JAB. Personally I
>>> > like the concept of the JAB from a development view, one full
>>> > accessibility
>>> API
>>> > across all platforms, rather than one which maps to the native ones
>>> > and
>>> so
>>> > has to cope with the differences of different platforms.
>>> >
>>> > However in practice as a user things seem to be simpler for SWT than
>>> Java
>>> > swing and JAB. I had some trouble getting the JAB working on a windows
>>> > 7 64-bit system, not sure precisely what the issue was but the JAB
>>> > only seemed to start working once I installed the 32-bit JVM,
>>> > previously I
>>> only
>>> > had the 64-bit JVM installed. If the JAB does require the 32-bit JVM
>>> > as well as the 64-bit JVM then all I can say is this fact is not
>>> > documented anywhere. Even once the JAB is working the quality of
>>> > accessibility can differ between platforms, Linux I probably would
>>> > give the best rating,
>>> on
>>> > windows you can even notice some issues with relatively simple
>>> applications
>>> > such as MathTrax and on the Mac there are definitely issues (eg. the
>>> file
>>> > dialog for things like opening and saving files has issues on the 
>>> > Mac).
>>> >
>>> > In comparison SWT applications and certainly more sizable ones such as
>>> > eclipse tend to just work straight out of the box. This is not to say
>>> their
>>> > always perfect but eclipse is mostly accessible and certainly most of
>>> its
>>> > functionality can be used by a blind user.
>>> >
>>> > Regarding your comment on reuse, may be accessibility is an example of
>>> > what you say. By reusing the native OS controls SWT picks up the
>>> > accessibility of those and the screen readers need not support another
>>> > accessibility API as they do for swing.
>>> >
>>> > I think though Richard's comments on reuse related more to do with
>>> non-UI
>>> > parts of eclipse RCP/SWT and how they just don't work with normal
>>> standard
>>> > JDK implementations. I think image objects were an example of this.
>>> > May
>>> be
>>> > there is advantages to the Eclipse project versions not found in the
>>> > standard JDK classes.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Michael Whapples
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn MacLeod
>>> > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:04 AM
>>> >
>>> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>> >
>>> > Hi again.
>>> >
>>> > Sorry to take so long to reply.
>>> >
>>> > JFrame is not an embeddable component, so SWT (or any other embeddor)
>>> > can't embed JFrames.
>>> > SWT_AWT.new_Frame() returns a subclass of EmbeddedFrame, which is a
>>> > sibling of JFrame but it does not have a root pane.
>>> > JApplet is embeddable and it has a root pane. Can you make do with a
>>> > JApplet instead of a JFrame?
>>> >
>>> > I wrote another snippet for you (attached) that takes the root pane
>>> > out
>>> of
>>> > a JFrame and sets it into a JApplet in an SWT GUI.
>>> > Hopefully you could do something similar with a JFrame from your
>>> > textbook's sample code.
>>> > But this won't solve the whole problem, because the Swing controls
>>> > from the JFrame still won't be accessible unless you have the JAB
>>> > installed
>>> and
>>> > use an AT that works with it.
>>> > (Question for you: Are Swing controls really that inaccessible? Is the
>>> JAB
>>> > hard to install? Don't AT usually work once the JAB is installed? I
>>> don't
>>> > know because I don't use Swing.)
>>> >
>>> > Regarding event integration, this article might be helpful:
>>> > http://www.eclipse.org/**articles/Article-Swing-SWT-**
>>> > Integration/index.html<
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Swing-SWT-Integration/index.html>
>>> > The rule of thumb is to use SwingUtilities.invokeLater() and
>>> > Display.asyncExec() to pass work from AWT/Swing to SWT and vice-versa.
>>> > This article also discusses the tab traversal "glitch" that I tripped
>>> over
>>> > in the snippet I sent you earlier, and they show how to fix it in
>>> > their example code.
>>> >
>>> >  I really do believe in the OOP concept of "reuse, don't reinvent,"
>>> >>
>>> > So do we, which is why we reused the OS controls instead of drawing
>>> > our own.  :) We did talk about this with Sun in the beginning, but
>>> > unfortunately it didn't work out.
>>> >
>>> > Also, I happened to trip over these other two snippets that manipulate
>>> > BufferedImage and JAI TiledImage from within SWT.
>>> > I am including them here in case they are helpful:
>>> > https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13<
>>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c13>
>>> > https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/**show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14<
>>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=119363#c14>
>>> >
>>> > Hope this helps,
>>> > Carolyn
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From:
>>> > Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>
>>> > To:
>>> > Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Date:
>>> > 01/31/2012 01:30 PM
>>> > Subject:
>>> > Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI Sent by:
>>> > blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for responding to my concerns. I will definitely take a look at
>>> > your
>>> > workabound and see how much it helps. Hopefully, I will be pleased 
>>> > with
>>> > the
>>> > results.
>>> >
>>> > I suspect, however, that simply providing compatibility at the AWT
>>> Canvas
>>> > level won't help much with my main concern. I already knew of one way 
>>> > to
>>> > do
>>> > that. I also already knew how to embed AWT Frame objects in an SWT
>>> object.
>>> > Unfortunately, I don't know how to easily integrate events fired by
>>> those
>>> > AWT components into the SWT event handling system and I don't know how
>>> to
>>> > embed Swing JFrame objects and/or their events in SWT objects.
>>> >
>>> > I know how to write new code that will play reasonably well with SWT.
>>> That
>>> > isn't my main concern. I really do believe in the OOP concept of 
>>> > "reuse,
>>> > don't reinvent," and my main concern is the lack of compatibility of 
>>> > SWT
>>> > with existing unmodified graphics libraries, which typically produce
>>> > graphic outputs in Swing JFrame objects. Until we can successfully 
>>> > embed
>>> > JFrame objects in SWT objects, and until we can easily integrate the
>>> event
>>> > handling mechanisms of the two systems, the use of those libraries
>>> without
>>> > modification of the libraries will probably be very difficult at best
>>> and
>>> > off limits at worst.
>>> >
>>> > Hopefully someone will prove me wrong on this.
>>> >
>>> > Dick Baldwin
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Carolyn MacLeod <
>>> > Carolyn_MacLeod at ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >  Thank-you, Michael!
>>> >> Carolyn
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> From:
>>> >> "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>> >> To:
>>> >> "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> >> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> >> Date:
>>> >> 31/01/2012 11:30 AM
>>> >> Subject:
>>> >> Re: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>> >> Sent by:
>>> >> blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello,
>>> >> Thanks for taking the time to do this. I know you have asked 
>>> >> questions
>>> >>
>>> > on
>>> >
>>> >> the orca-list about improving accessibility in SWT and eclipse and 
>>> >> its
>>> >> certainly appreciated. In my oppinion SWT is one of the few, if not 
>>> >> the
>>> >> best, GUI toolkits for making accessible applications which are also
>>> >> cross-platform.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards
>>> >>
>>> >> Michael whapples
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Carolyn MacLeod
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:09 PM
>>> >> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> >> Subject: [Blindmath] Using Java Draw2D in an SWT GUI
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello, list.
>>> >>
>>> >> My name is Carolyn and I am on the Eclipse SWT Team.
>>> >> I am the developer responsible for SWT Accessibility.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ken Perry of Blinksoft asked me if I could help with an issue brought
>>> up
>>> >> by Richard Baldwin regarding SWT being accessible but largely
>>> >>
>>> > incompatible
>>> >
>>> >> with Swing/AWT.
>>> >> I read several posts similar to this one:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://host.nfbnet.org/**pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.**
>>> > org/2012-January/004693.html<
>>>
>>> http://host.nfbnet.org/pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.org/2012-January/004693.ht
>>> ml<http://host.nfbnet.org/pipermail/blindmath_nfbnet.org/2012-January/004693.html>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> I wrote an SWT Snippet that I hope you will find useful:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://git.eclipse.org/c/**platform/eclipse.platform.swt.**
>>> > git/tree/examples/org.eclipse.**swt.snippets/src/org/eclipse/**
>>> > swt/snippets/Snippet361.java<
>>>
>>> http://git.eclipse.org/c/platform/eclipse.platform.swt.git/tree/examples/org
>>> .eclipse.swt.snippets/src/org/eclipse/swt/snippets/Snippet361.java
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> It shows how to host an AWT Canvas inside an SWT GUI, and use the GUI
>>> to
>>> >> initiate Java2D operations within the Canvas.
>>> >> I randomly chose rotation and translation of the image, but you 
>>> >> should
>>> >>
>>> > be
>>> >
>>> >> able to modify the snippet to do whatever Java2D operations you are
>>> >> teaching.
>>> >> The "Print Image" button uses SWT to take a screen snapshot of the
>>> >>
>>> > Canvas
>>> >
>>> >> and print it to a printer.
>>> >> I had not heard of a printer that embosses images before, and I think
>>> >>
>>> > that
>>> >
>>> >> is really cool!
>>> >>
>>> >> I tried this snippet on Windows (XP) with JAWS (13) and on Mac OSX
>>> >> (Leopard) with VoiceOver, and on Linux (Ubuntu 10.04) with Orca and 
>>> >> it
>>> >> worked on all 3 platforms.
>>> >> It should work with other platform versions and screen readers as 
>>> >> well.
>>> >> The only glitch I encountered was on Windows, if the user tabs into 
>>> >> the
>>> >> Canvas, they can't tab back out.
>>> >> They need to use the button mnemonics to traverse out of the Canvas:
>>> >>
>>> > alt+o
>>> >
>>> >> for Open, alt+x and alt+y for translating X and Y, alt+r for Rotate,
>>> and
>>> >> alt+p for Print.
>>> >> This was not an issue on Mac or Linux.
>>> >>
>>> >> I cannot solve the deeper issues, like making SWT and AWT graphics
>>> >> interchangeable without performance penalties (there are technical
>>> >> issues),
>>> >> or improving SWT's graphics support to the level of Java2D or more 
>>> >> (we
>>> >>
>>> > are
>>> >
>>> >> a very small and very busy team, and we simply do not have the
>>> >>
>>> > manpower).
>>> >
>>> >> Hopefully this snippet will give you a work-around that is both
>>> >>
>>> > accessible
>>> >
>>> >> and teaches the math you want to teach.
>>> >>
>>> >> Carolyn
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> >> Blindmath:
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > mwhapples%40aim.com<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> >> Blindmath:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > carolyn_macleod%40ca.ibm.com<
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.
>>> ibm.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.ibm.com>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> >> Blindmath:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin
>>> .com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>> >
>>> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
>>> > Austin Community College
>>> > (512) 223-4758
>>> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>> > http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>> > ______________________________**_________________
>>> > Blindmath mailing list
>>> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > Blindmath:
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > carolyn_macleod%40ca.ibm.com<
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.
>>> ibm.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.ibm.com>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________**_________________
>>> > Blindmath mailing list
>>> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > Blindmath:
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > mwhapples%40aim.com<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________**_________________
>>> > Blindmath mailing list
>>> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > Blindmath:
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>>> > baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin
>>> .com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>
>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology
>>> Austin Community College
>>> (512) 223-4758
>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Blindmath:
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.
>>> ibm.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/carolyn_macleod%40ca.ibm.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Blindmath:
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e
>>> du
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Blindmath:
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co
>>> m<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Blindmath:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/keith537%40iglou.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Blindmath:
>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e
>>> du
>>>
>>>
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>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>> Blindmath:
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>
>> Professor of Computer Information Technology
>> Austin Community College
>> (512) 223-4758
>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/keith537%40iglou.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Blindmath:
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