[Blindmath] Graphics

Tue Jan 31 16:25:22 UTC 2012

That's an excuse. Speak up and you'll probably find that you're not the only one who isn't on the same page as the instructor in terms of "here and there".

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 9:53 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

In a large lecture of well over a hundred students, its a big ask.

Michael whapples

-----Original Message-----
From: Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:44 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

        Can't the blind student speak up and ask? I always did.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:14 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

Yes I agree with this about not wanting people listening to pre-recording
audio while you are trying to explain the graph. However that in itself is a
form of audio-touch, in a loose sense, as the student is getting audio (you)
explaining the graph. The ideal situation might be that the student has
someone sitting next to them to help guide them round the tactile diagram.

Richard, here is a question for you, one real problem I kept coming across
while studying physics was the tutors using phrases like "this part of the
graph", how many "this", "that", "here" and "there" do you use? If one
cannot see the graph you are pointing at, where is here? Unfortunately its
such a natural way of talking that even when you are aware of it you can
slip back into those phrases where one relies on seeing the pointing to
understand the talking. I think my point here is that sometimes the talking
alone is not as useful as you may initially think. Its not an argument for
sticking in the ear-buds, but rather that may be the blind student does need
some extra help with finding "here".

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Baldwin
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 3:57 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

I will make one comment relative to audio-touch. Every technology has its
good points and its bad points. While audio-touch may be the best solution
in some situations, it may not be the best solution in other situations.
Also, until we see audio-touch applications on tablet computers, it will
continue to be the most expensive solution in most situations.

For example, if I am in a classroom containing a mixture of blind and
sighted students, and I am using a graphic on a slide that is projected on
a screen at the front of the room to explain the characteristics of a
damped sine wave exhibiting an exponential decay, I would prefer that the
blind students have good quality tactile images of the slide and that they
be concentrating on my explanation of the shape and other characteristics
of the graphic as opposed to wearing ear buds and listening to pre-recorded
messages about the graphic.

There is a time and a place for everything, and the lecture classroom is
not necessarily the place for wearing ear buds.

Dick Baldwin

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> A couple of things in response.
>
> Firstly the swell paper thing, probably in that one message where I say
> IVEO can be used with swell paper, it probably was left to be implied by
> the reader that it would be subjected to the limitations of swell paper, I
> didn't feel like typing it out on a touchscreen. However I would say,
> while
> it cannot do colour/shading like the tiger, it is possible to have ways of
> differentiating between different regions with swell paper by using
> different textures (eg. horizontal lines, vertical lines, dots, etc).
> Admittedly applying a texture to an area is probably more complicated than
> using colours or shading, but if ViewPlus wants to make IVEO better with
> swell paper it might be a feature (apply texture) worth considering, but
> whether ViewPlus wants to add such a feature is up to ViewPlus.
>
> The other point or may be question is may be of more interest. Your
> comments on why ViewPlus and you focussed on audio-touch instead of just
> tactile diagrams is interesting to read, I don't think I would dispute
> anything there. What I am left with is a slight question of why did you go
> audio-touch instead of plain audio, or may be more popularly called
> sonification? Quite a number of people have gone down the pure
> sonification
> route in trying to make visual images accessible, so there must be
> something desirable in pure sonification but why did you feel the touch
> part is also important? Personally I have always found pure sonification
> difficult to master, I just seem to have some sort of disconnect or gap
> between the audio and the spatial, so find it very difficult to visualise
> anything from passively listening to audio.
>
> Please do let us know more as that project progresses.
>
> Michael Whapples
>
> -----Original Message----- From: John Gardner
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:24 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: [Blindmath] Graphics
>
>
> I agree with Dick Baldwin that at the present time, a blind person needs
> sighted assistance to access most graphical information.  I described a
> way
> that a blind person who has IVEO and a ViewPlus embosser can access
> graphics, but it is tedious and gives only partial access.  Even if Jamal
> and Dick could drive a process that could reliably isolate and process
> images, I am skeptical that, in the end, most images will be accessible
> without sighted assistance anyhow.  We have to face the physical fact that
> fingers are not a fully adequate substitute for vision even for the most
> competent braille/tactile graphics readers.
>
> My vision of graphics is that they should be published in an accessible
> format, and I have devoted much of my energy for nearly 20 years to
> developing methods that have some chance of actually happening.  I'm not
> unhappy with what ViewPlus has achieved, but I sure wish we could speed up
> the process and bring down the cost to end users.
>
> ViewPlus expects soon to be starting a new project funded partly by the
> DIAGRAM project to evaluate usability of SVG graphics accessed by
> audio/touch - which is what IVEO is all about.  Assuming that preliminary
> information is correct and the grant is approved, I will soon be looking
> for
> committed volunteers and suspect that several of you would like to
> volunteer.  I particularly encourage people who have access to a ViewPlus
> embosser to volunteer.  Those without such access can still participate,
> but
> they'll need to wait a few days for their tactiles to arrive in the mail.
> By the way, Michael is right that swell paper works too but only for line
> art.  Anything with color or texture is just a mess with swell paper.
>
> The purpose of the grant is for volunteers to evaluate a number of SVG
> files
> per month and to submit some of their own images to be "made accessible".
> Good accessibility means that text speaks when touched, math is spoken
> properly, and important graphic objects speak their titles when touched.
> The more complex the graphic, the more important it is for graphic objects
> to be labeled.  Processing of color beyond the simple default for ViewPlus
> embossers would help, particularly for images that are not
> well-represented
> in gray scale.
>
> More information will be forthcoming when the project starts.
>
> One final comment.  Audio-touch access requires a computer and some
> external
> equipment to use.  Why not make graphics accessible by touch alone?  It is
> clearly possible for experts to make graphical information accessible as
> stand-alone tactile graphics.  Generally that graphic needs to be
> considerably simplified and needs braille labels and a braille
> description.
> It is costly, because a trained expert needs to make the tactile version.
> In addition, surprisingly few blind people can read it anyhow.  On the
> other
> hand, it is much easier to convert a graphic to SVG and add the meta-data
> necessary to make it accessible.  Simplification is unnecessary. The
> learning curve for both the creator and user is not high, and anybody who
> wants to learn can do it.  Finally it is possible in principle for almost
> any mainstream graphic to be published in SVG with that meta-data included
> so that it is automatically accessible.  That is just not the case for
> stand-alone tactiles.  These are the reasons that I have concentrated on
> audio-touch methods and will let others make stand-alone tactiles.
>
> John Gardner
> ______________________________**__
>
> John Gardner       |  President |  ViewPlus
> 541.754.4002 x 220 |  www.viewplus.com
> ______________________________**__
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--
Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
http://www.DickBaldwin.com

Professor of Computer Information Technology
Austin Community College
(512) 223-4758
mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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