[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Fri May 11 09:42:45 UTC 2012

Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it on 
a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as non-existent. 
Many of the mobile screen readers have support for bluetooth Braille 
displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB Braille display I 
cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so the Braille support 
in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind and the developers may 
as well have spent time on something more useful. Of course, there may 
be some who it will be useful to and it comes down to numbers as to 
whether the developer feels its going to add value.

Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based 
purely on reading.

Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the 
touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the 
physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how things 
relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught me out 
when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to explore tactile 
diagrams with two hands. While this is personal feeling rather than 
experimental findings, I think the reason is that I may use one hand as 
a marker and the other to find something else and then I know where the 
two points are relative to each other. The problem was that two hands 
confused IVEO and it meant the spoken output was not related to what I 
thought I was tapping (sometimes it thought the other hand was 
pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this sort of use?

Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size screen? 
What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a small screen is 
possible to be more accurate with as I can have a finger or thumb on the 
edge of the device and reach over with another finger, this then means I 
can feel how far/where I am reaching because of relative finger 
position/muscle tension in the hand. On larger screens one may not be 
able to do this and may need to move the hand around and so loose the 
relative positioning feeling. Obviously a larger screen means things can 
be larger to find, I wonder if there is an optimal size.

As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can be 
quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than 
landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.

A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is 
not adding value, but as you have also included natural language 
recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural language 
recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been yet another 
command set to remember and so does it solve something which is a 
problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to use a specific 
command set means one hasn't got another command set to remember and so 
can take a good guess if you cannot remember the command in other modes.

Hope some of this is useful.

Michael Whapples
On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform. As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability and so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic. Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical situation leads to the current implementation. Please understand that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet, but a way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn this into a product or release it as such, then of course such considerations are on the top of the list before anything else, frankly.
>
> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest to change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK, *smile*, unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I might presume that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat of the project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as I want to incorporate feedback into this.
>
> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write something: so many people don't.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays
>
> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>
> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please put
> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>
>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with Google maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android tablet, or really any decently recent Android powered device, and facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI framework which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>
>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>
>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>
>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll be updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>
>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me off list with questions.
>>
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays
>>
>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know some use
>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at it, I
>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>
>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>> diagram for blind students.
>>
>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which can do
>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may be if
>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>> environment.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and even less about programming, I know enough that I am also skeptical of the possibility for adequate adaptations. Unfortunately, providing a brailled hard copy with all possible answer scenarios for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic. One of my suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome, will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>> Patricia Balassone
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