[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Tue May 15 18:52:55 UTC 2012

	I know it wasn't you, I was responding to Burker(sp?)'s post. 
Your posts are fine. 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:36 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

To be clear, I'm the one who is developing the solution, and I never said you have yourself to blame. I think you might be
conflating two different posts. Just a FYI.

Website: www.SinaBahram.com
Twitter: @SinaBahram

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:40 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

        I agree with Michael on this.
I don't have Android, nor do I plan to get it.
Sounds like you're pushing platform here which isn't okay, combined with the "you have only yourself to blame" rubs me the wrong
way.

You could develop this for other platforms.
Failing that, you could leave out the judgment and just say "I'm sorry, we only have this for Android" and leave how you feel about
it out of the discussion.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 5:21 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

I'll not hang on it too much, but my point on the OS chosen, yes there
is the part of who is the manufacturer, but if that were the only issue
or was not tied up with other reasons I would fully agree (there are
times where I just mumble stuff to myself when I find myself needing to
use certain applications on a computer).

However as I said there are other reasons, mainly coming down to cost to
use ratio. OK, may be an Android tablet isn't hugely expensive, but as I
don't feel I have a need for one for anything else then the whole cost
of the tablet is part of the price for the accessibility tool. Also as
some tools are only available for certain platforms, you mention the SAS
work for IOS, then one may find themself needing to buy multiple tablets
when really only one is needed and the price just keeps escalating.

To compare this with your comparison with MathPlayer being for IE only,
well there the price to be able to use it is free (providing one uses
windows and in the PC market windows is certainly the clear leader that
most have/have access to). This would be a case where I agree with you
and probably would just mutter a few things to myself.

My original comment was not really meant to be a criticism but rather a
ask for it to come to something I would find more useful/cost effective.

Platform is important to the developers to consider, let's say if one
developed something for the PC but they chose to develop it for
something like FreeBSD which has a small user base, and if it would not
work on anything but FreeBSD, it probably would remain a tool only used
by a few. Even if the tool was really great, according to what you said,
many are loosing out simply because they won't swap to FreeBSD, surely
in such a case it would be reasonable for people to ask the developer to
consider supporting other platforms?

Michael Whapples
On 11/05/2012 02:36, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> Sina, first of all, congratulations on your Champion of Change
> recognition, very cool to read about it.
> secondly, though we will take this off-list, it's a shame we've only
> met up once, seeing as we live within 5 miles of each other, we better
> change that soon.
> Thirdly, SAS has been doing experiments with graph exploration using
> the iPad. I got to test it out at CSUN, and while it wasn't perfect,
> and I am not allowed to go into details of the testing, it really was
> suffficient to make me excited about the potential, if, and this is
> important, the underlying format is something that is mainstream and
> easily "produceable" from mainstream graphics and scientific software.
> My point is that there are efforts in the iOS space as well to provide
> access to graphics, and one would hope that SAS put the same type of
> ambition into those, as they put into their mainstream offerings,
> though this still remains to be seen.
> Finally, I am going to go out on a limb somewhat, I hope people do not
> take it the wrong way, because no disrespect is meant in any way, but
> if you refuse to use a reasonably priced option to view graphs in an
> accessible manner, (provided all goes to Sina's plan), because you
> have philosophical disagreements with the manufacturer or the OS, you
> only have yourself to blame for that. We can't really afford to be
> picky or philosophical, at lesat in my view. If some tool is going to
> do what I need it to, I am not going to care if its manufacturer is
> called Apple or Google, Adobe, Microsoft or anti-Gay extremists inc.
> (hey, I live in North Carolina). Of course you are fre to disagree
> with me on this point, but I am a bit surprised at such statements.
> Shouldn't we applaud and support those who allow innovation and
> progress in accessibility, evenif they are not called Apple, or
> Freedom scientific, or something else?
> Should I decide that I don't like Neil (no worries, I think Neil is a
> hekc of a guy and has done a lot for accessibility), I think Firefox
> is cool and IE is evil, and, therefore, ditch MathPlayer? Seems a bit
> odd.
> May be I am missing something here, and I hope so.
> Cheers
> -B
>
>
> On 5/11/12, Sina Bahram<sbahram at nc.rr.com>  wrote:
>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform. As you
>> know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move to other
>> platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability and so forth. On
>> the other hand, the research, the interaction techniques, the feature sets:
>> these are platform agnostic. Furthermore, the development experience on
>> Android is far superior to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user
>> experience is far superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this
>> paradoxical situation leads to the current implementation. Please understand
>> that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet, but a
>> way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn this into a
>> product or release it as such, then of course such considerations are on the
>> top of the list before anything else, frankly.
>>
>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest to change
>> of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK, *smile*,
>> unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I might presume that
>> you don't have any comments on the substance/meat of the project? if you do,
>> please know I'm anxious to hear them, as I want to incorporate feedback into
>> this.
>>
>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write something:
>> so many people don't.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>> readers/braille displays
>>
>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>
>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please put
>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>
>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with Google maps
>>> via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android tablet, or really
>>> any decently recent Android powered device, and facilitates this access to
>>> the map by utilizing the TIKISI framework which I've developed as part of
>>> my doctoral studies.
>>>
>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>
>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>
>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll be
>>> updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our progress.
>>> Videos are forthcoming.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me off
>>> list with questions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>>> readers/braille displays
>>>
>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know some use
>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at it, I
>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>
>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>
>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which can do
>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may be if
>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>> environment.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I need to
>>>> pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and even less
>>>> about programming, I know enough that I am also skeptical of the
>>>> possibility for adequate adaptations. Unfortunately, providing a brailled
>>>> hard copy with all possible answer scenarios for an exam that is answer
>>>> driven is unrealistic. One of my suggestions, even though it will still
>>>> be cumbersome, will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams,
>>>> and equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to
>>>> tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>>> Patricia Balassone
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