[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Tue May 15 21:34:10 UTC 2012

Not to drag it out, but there were some points you raised in this 
message I need to comment on:
1. Android and IOS aren't the only games in town, do we really need to 
stick with touchscreens? As the description of the tools say that there 
is also speech and keyboard interaction, at least limited access could 
be offered on non-touchscreen platforms. Also why cannot traditional 
pointing devices as found on desktop/laptop systems not be used? 
ViewPlus have shown diagram access can be achieved with pointing devices 
on a desktop with IVEO.
2. Not minding paying, well possibly. Paying for an android tablet is 
something I am not willing to pay for, there are two reasons. Firstly 
its not something I want and so the only reason would be to use a single 
tool. The second reason is that I am paying money to the wrong place, to 
the tablet manufacturer rather than the developer of the accessibility 
(this point only works when the other point is true, which it is for 
me), I want to support the person working on what I value. I probably 
would have less issue if I were actually paying for the tool to improve 
accessibility.
3. Building on that last point, it might very well be something I cannot 
afford. In short it is easier to get grants for an accessibility tool 
rather than a generic device eg. disability student allowance in the UK 
normally only pays for anything the student requires because of their 
disability which a non-disabled student would not require, while one 
could try and make a case that the tablet forms part of something 
additional to normal you are in the situation of convincing someone of 
that).
4. Supporting multiple platforms, well as point 1 said, couldn't 
something be done for desktops, Windows is much more dominant than any 
tablet OS (in the sense about most people have access to a windows PC) 
and on the desktop you also can use crossplatform stuff like Java and 
SWT (other tools could be used but those are the ones I am most familiar 
with), so increasing the audience even further. As more people would 
have access to desktop systems, then wouldn't that be a better place to 
start as it removes the issue of points 2 and 3?

Just a quick clarification note: Its not trying to get at any platform 
in particular, if I were against android I probably would have been 
suggesting make it for IOS as I have an iPodTouch. If anything I am 
probably saying more about the situation of tablets in general and how 
they lock you in to a platform and that for developers its hard to 
support multiple platforms and so makes it hard to reach as many as 
possible.

OK, I think enough from me.

Michael Whapples
On 15/05/2012 20:21, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> Hi Rebecca
>
> I see no reason for dragging this discussion out.
> There are two touch screen platforms with any degree of accessibility
> (Symbian is on its way out and won't be supporte by Nokia, Windows
> PHone 7 was inaccessible from the start, Blackberry has very basic
> accessibility, Web OS has no accessibility as far as I am aware).
> So any developments that utilize touchscreen access to graphics hae to
> be platform-specific, there is no software that can run on both
> platforms, not unless there is some Java way of doing it, I certainly
> am not the expert of experts so I don't completely exclude the
> possibility, but I am prety sure it's impossible.
> Apple is loved my many, Ihave an iPhone, and I think Apple has done a
> tremendous job. But there are issues. Apple products are expensive for
> many people, Apple is very hard to work with as a developer, they
> retain a lot of control, there is no open speech access to iOS
> devices, and many languages have no speech engines that can even run
> on Apple, and Apple is the only one who can change that.
> Android has huge accessibilityissues still, that's a fact, and I have
> criticized them openly for the progress, that it is a bit sower than I
> had hoped for that is, I do not doubt Google's accessibility talent
> and look forward to seeing Android 5.
> However Android is much more open, anyone can write TTS access to it,
> there is a variety of devices at different price points available for
> Android.
> It is much easier to work with Android as a developer, in terms of
> getting accessibility to the operating system, to get speech access
> and to launch your apps.
> Therefore I completely agree with the reasoning behind doing the
> initial development work on Android, not that I speak for Sina, nor do
> I pretend to know more than he does, not by a long shot.
> I also pointed out that SAS is developing touch accessibility for iOS
> (see Ed Summer's previous post to this list).
> I hope that Windows 8 will become another exciting option to touch
> screen access, in the near future, we know Microsoft has done work on
> making touch screen functionality in Windows 8 accessible, but it's
> not fair to expect them to get it right in the beginning, it seems to
> take some years to get that going, if we go by experience.
> So I don't really back down from what I said. If the wording seemed
> offensive I do apologize for that, it wasn't meant to be and it may
> have come across more "aggressive" than I intended it to.
> I go for any solution that gets my job done, whether it is developed
> for Windows or Apple or Unix orAndroid, as long as it does what I need
> to and I can afford to get it of course.
> I'm just glad to see better solutions and exciting research in the
> field, and that should be the topic of this list and this discussion,
> not jibes about operating systems or screen reader preferences.
> If I inadvertently derailed that discussion I appologized for that already.
> Let's get back on track and onto positive things.
> -B
>
> On 5/15/12, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  wrote:
>> 	I know it wasn't you, I was responding to Burker(sp?)'s post.
>> Your posts are fine.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:36 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>> readers/braille displays
>>
>> To be clear, I'm the one who is developing the solution, and I never said
>> you have yourself to blame. I think you might be
>> conflating two different posts. Just a FYI.
>>
>>
>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:40 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>> readers/braille displays
>>
>>          I agree with Michael on this.
>> I don't have Android, nor do I plan to get it.
>> Sounds like you're pushing platform here which isn't okay, combined with the
>> "you have only yourself to blame" rubs me the wrong
>> way.
>>
>> You could develop this for other platforms.
>> Failing that, you could leave out the judgment and just say "I'm sorry, we
>> only have this for Android" and leave how you feel about
>> it out of the discussion.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 5:21 AM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>> readers/braille displays
>>
>> I'll not hang on it too much, but my point on the OS chosen, yes there
>> is the part of who is the manufacturer, but if that were the only issue
>> or was not tied up with other reasons I would fully agree (there are
>> times where I just mumble stuff to myself when I find myself needing to
>> use certain applications on a computer).
>>
>> However as I said there are other reasons, mainly coming down to cost to
>> use ratio. OK, may be an Android tablet isn't hugely expensive, but as I
>> don't feel I have a need for one for anything else then the whole cost
>> of the tablet is part of the price for the accessibility tool. Also as
>> some tools are only available for certain platforms, you mention the SAS
>> work for IOS, then one may find themself needing to buy multiple tablets
>> when really only one is needed and the price just keeps escalating.
>>
>> To compare this with your comparison with MathPlayer being for IE only,
>> well there the price to be able to use it is free (providing one uses
>> windows and in the PC market windows is certainly the clear leader that
>> most have/have access to). This would be a case where I agree with you
>> and probably would just mutter a few things to myself.
>>
>> My original comment was not really meant to be a criticism but rather a
>> ask for it to come to something I would find more useful/cost effective.
>>
>> Platform is important to the developers to consider, let's say if one
>> developed something for the PC but they chose to develop it for
>> something like FreeBSD which has a small user base, and if it would not
>> work on anything but FreeBSD, it probably would remain a tool only used
>> by a few. Even if the tool was really great, according to what you said,
>> many are loosing out simply because they won't swap to FreeBSD, surely
>> in such a case it would be reasonable for people to ask the developer to
>> consider supporting other platforms?
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 02:36, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
>>> Sina, first of all, congratulations on your Champion of Change
>>> recognition, very cool to read about it.
>>> secondly, though we will take this off-list, it's a shame we've only
>>> met up once, seeing as we live within 5 miles of each other, we better
>>> change that soon.
>>> Thirdly, SAS has been doing experiments with graph exploration using
>>> the iPad. I got to test it out at CSUN, and while it wasn't perfect,
>>> and I am not allowed to go into details of the testing, it really was
>>> suffficient to make me excited about the potential, if, and this is
>>> important, the underlying format is something that is mainstream and
>>> easily "produceable" from mainstream graphics and scientific software.
>>> My point is that there are efforts in the iOS space as well to provide
>>> access to graphics, and one would hope that SAS put the same type of
>>> ambition into those, as they put into their mainstream offerings,
>>> though this still remains to be seen.
>>> Finally, I am going to go out on a limb somewhat, I hope people do not
>>> take it the wrong way, because no disrespect is meant in any way, but
>>> if you refuse to use a reasonably priced option to view graphs in an
>>> accessible manner, (provided all goes to Sina's plan), because you
>>> have philosophical disagreements with the manufacturer or the OS, you
>>> only have yourself to blame for that. We can't really afford to be
>>> picky or philosophical, at lesat in my view. If some tool is going to
>>> do what I need it to, I am not going to care if its manufacturer is
>>> called Apple or Google, Adobe, Microsoft or anti-Gay extremists inc.
>>> (hey, I live in North Carolina). Of course you are fre to disagree
>>> with me on this point, but I am a bit surprised at such statements.
>>> Shouldn't we applaud and support those who allow innovation and
>>> progress in accessibility, evenif they are not called Apple, or
>>> Freedom scientific, or something else?
>>> Should I decide that I don't like Neil (no worries, I think Neil is a
>>> hekc of a guy and has done a lot for accessibility), I think Firefox
>>> is cool and IE is evil, and, therefore, ditch MathPlayer? Seems a bit
>>> odd.
>>> May be I am missing something here, and I hope so.
>>> Cheers
>>> -B
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/11/12, Sina Bahram<sbahram at nc.rr.com>   wrote:
>>>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform. As
>>>> you
>>>> know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move to other
>>>> platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability and so forth.
>>>> On
>>>> the other hand, the research, the interaction techniques, the feature
>>>> sets:
>>>> these are platform agnostic. Furthermore, the development experience on
>>>> Android is far superior to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user
>>>> experience is far superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this
>>>> paradoxical situation leads to the current implementation. Please
>>>> understand
>>>> that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet, but
>>>> a
>>>> way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn this into
>>>> a
>>>> product or release it as such, then of course such considerations are on
>>>> the
>>>> top of the list before anything else, frankly.
>>>>
>>>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest to
>>>> change
>>>> of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK, *smile*,
>>>> unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I might presume
>>>> that
>>>> you don't have any comments on the substance/meat of the project? if you
>>>> do,
>>>> please know I'm anxious to hear them, as I want to incorporate feedback
>>>> into
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write
>>>> something:
>>>> so many people don't.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>>>> readers/braille displays
>>>>
>>>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>>>
>>>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please put
>>>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>>>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>>>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>>>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>>>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>>>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>>>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>>>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>>>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with Google
>>>>> maps
>>>>> via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android tablet, or
>>>>> really
>>>>> any decently recent Android powered device, and facilitates this access
>>>>> to
>>>>> the map by utilizing the TIKISI framework which I've developed as part
>>>>> of
>>>>> my doctoral studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll be
>>>>> updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our progress.
>>>>> Videos are forthcoming.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me off
>>>>> list with questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>>>>> readers/braille displays
>>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know some
>>>>> use
>>>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at it,
>>>>> I
>>>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which can do
>>>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may be
>>>>> if
>>>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>>>> environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and even less
>>>>>> about programming, I know enough that I am also skeptical of the
>>>>>> possibility for adequate adaptations. Unfortunately, providing a
>>>>>> brailled
>>>>>> hard copy with all possible answer scenarios for an exam that is
>>>>>> answer
>>>>>> driven is unrealistic. One of my suggestions, even though it will
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> be cumbersome, will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams,
>>>>>> and equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to
>>>>>> tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>>>>> Patricia Balassone
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