[Blindmath] Nemeth equivolent for Logical Not

Thu Dec 19 22:28:49 UTC 2013

Interesting, when I look at my response in the stream of this message it is if part of it were translated into grade 2 Braille.
comKevin for instance should be -Kevin "dash"Kevin
The smile :) was translated  to :were as if the lower G was a paren which then became were?
Is that what these Braille note and such programs do with email streams? :)

-Kevin

On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Louis Bryant <louis at braillesoft.net> wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 4, 16 was the Nemeth symbol for the asterisk.
> Best, Louis
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rose <engs0006 at umn.edu>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Nemeth equivolent for Logical Not
> 
>> 
>> 
>> The problem with using (4, 3456) is that is the equivalent of the Nemeth 
>> asterisk.
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/19/2013 2:36 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>> Thanks for finding this.
>>> The symbol is different than Tilde because in my screen reader it actually says "not" so it must look similar but different? Also, there is a different latex symbol for Tilde. I don't have an expanded Nemeth guide just the pocket one. :were
>>> So DXB is close but not in compliance, they did 4-3456! This is in contrast to 4-156?  :were
>>> The problem with variant definitions by document is that it becomes quite a memory trick to remember what is the true symbol and what it means i.e., when one is reading Braille, and I think this is universal it helps if there is consistency.
>>> In other words a special symbol sheet is great but that is not a reason to vary more than necessary and assume that if one has defined a variant in a special symbol sheet that could vary from document to document.
>>> So Did DXB try and come up with one that is close because Nemeth really didn't have a symbol for true logical "not"?
>>> So is it really the de facto standard now to use 4-3456 for logical not since this is the Latex translation that DXB has adopted?
>>> comKevin
>>> 
>>> On Dec 19, 2013, at 2:12 PM, Rose <engs0006 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On page 133 Rule XIX Section 137 it states:
>>>> Tilde: This sign of operation is used predominately in logic with the meaning of /not. /dots (4, 156)
>>>> 
>>>> The logical not symbol that you show is the "half turnstile looking" logical not and I know that this does not translate correctly with any translation software that I have used. I have seen some transcribers substitute the tilde, but what ever is being used will need to be defined for you on a special symbols page/notes etc.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Rose
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/19/2013 1:57 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>> It would appear that the list doesn't permit me to email the actual print symbol. If I email it to myself with gmail, the symbol is preserved.
>>>>> 
>>>>> However I had pasted it into the original post and I see that in the reply my original message omits the symbol.
>>>>> This is an example of the "not" symbol on the web that appears to render.
>>>>> http://www.proofwiki.org/wiki/Symbols:Logical_Operators#Not
>>>>> It would surprise me that such an important logical symbol would have been left out of the Nemeth definition.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> comKevin
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 19, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Rose <engs0006 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> I think it depends on how the logical not sign is represented in print. If it is represented as a tilde ~ then it would translate as that ... dots (4, 156), but sometimes the print will use what looks like "half turnstile"  which looks to me like a left pointing arrow with only a straight left lower barb, this symbol is not in the Nemeth code, but I have seen it transcribed as the arrow it looks like dots (1246, 6, 1256) or simply as the "shape indicator n" dots (1246, 1345).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My guess is that the print has it as what looks like a "half turnstile" and duxbury is not translating it correctly. I hope this helps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 12/19/2013 12:28 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>>>> I would like clarification on the Nemeth contraction/symbol for producing the logical not ??".
>>>>>>> The Latex equivalent is \lnot.
>>>>>>> I cannot find any reference for the Nemeth. Duxbury appears to translate latex \lnot as dots 4-3456.
>>>>>>> Is this correct?
>>>>>>> If so, where is this  contraction listed in the Nemeth reference?
>>>>>>> comKevin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> — 
>>>>>> Rose Engstrom 
>>>>>> Document Conversion Assistant
>>>>>> Disability Services
>>>>>> University of Minnesota
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>> — 
>>>> Rose Engstrom 
>>>> Document Conversion Assistant
>>>> Disability Services
>>>> University of Minnesota
>>>> McNamara Alumni Center, Suite 180
>>>> 200 Oak Street SE
>>>> Minneapolis, MN 55455-2002
>>>> cell: (612) 462-5484
>>>> Voice: (612) 624-2650
>>>> http://diversity.umn.edu/disability
>>>> This communication, together with any attachments hereto or links contained herein, is for the sole use of the intended recipientggness) and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, disclosure, copying, dissemination, distribution or use of this communication is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail message and delete the original and all copies of the communication, along with any attachments hereto or links herein, from your system.
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> — 
>> Rose Engstrom 
>> Document Conversion Assistant
>> Disability Services
>> University of Minnesota
>> McNamara Alumni Center, Suite 180
>> 200 Oak Street SE
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455-2002
>> cell: (612) 462-5484
>> Voice: (612) 624-2650
>> http://diversity.umn.edu/disability
>> 
>> This communication, together with any attachments hereto or links contained herein, is for the sole use of the intended recipientggness) and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, disclosure, copying, dissemination, distribution or use of this communication is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail message and delete the original and all copies of the communication, along with any attachments hereto or links herein, from your system.
>> 
>> 
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> 
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